PayPal settings - failed recurring payments

62 replies
PayPal suspends recurring payments if they fail once.

Is there a setting I can use to give people another chance to pay?
#failed #payments #paypal #recurring #settings
  • Profile picture of the author pjCheviot
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    Hi Sara

    About half way down this "tome" you should find what you need . . .

    Reattempting Failed Recurring Payments

    https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?c...scribe_buttons
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
    Originally Posted by Sara Young View Post

    PayPal suspends recurring payments if they fail once.

    Is there a setting I can use to give people another chance to pay?
    Hi Sara, did you find the answer please?
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
      Anyone know the answer to Saras question please? It would be great to know. I did look through the link kindly provided by pjCheviot, but no answer there. Any help really appreciated. I don't mind paying for the solution.
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  • Profile picture of the author laurencewins
    I would recommend ringing PayPal if nobody here really knows. Then you can share the answer in here with everybody.
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
      Originally Posted by laurencewins View Post

      I would recommend ringing PayPal if nobody here really knows. Then you can share the answer in here with everybody.
      Thanks Laurence, I tried that a few weeks ago, and it turns out the number I had was for the general/main section of PayPal and they couldn't give me the number for the department that dealt with this question??? Anyone know the solution to Saras question, or a number that I can call to actually get the solution?
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      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        It's right where he said.

        More specifically:
        Reattempting Failed Recurring Payments

        The discussion focuses on how/when Paypal reattempts failed payments.

        Don't stop there. It's all in the subscription form that is sent to Paypal when the visitor clicks your "subscribe" button. Read a couple of pages from that point forward to understand what is required.
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        • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
          Thanks Sid, it's appreciated. I have looked through that page and what I am trying to do, for yearly subscriptions, is that if a member misses one payment, then PayPal tries again 5 days later, and if that one is missed then again 5 days later and so on. So that 5 attempts over 25 days are done, and then if no payment on the 5th attempt, then the profile is cancelled, (not suspended). and can't find how to do exactly that on the link given.

          Are there any members here that can do something like that for payment please?
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          • Profile picture of the author Jeffery Moss
            Originally Posted by Chris2014 View Post

            Thanks Sid, it's appreciated. I have looked through that page and what I am trying to do, for yearly subscriptions, is that if a member misses one payment, then PayPal tries again 5 days later, and if that one is missed then again 5 days later and so on. So that 5 attempts over 25 days are done, and then if no payment on the 5th attempt, then the profile is cancelled, (not suspended). and can't find how to do exactly that on the link given.

            Are there any members here that can do something like that for payment please?
            That's an interesting dilemma and something that I'm sure others have faced here too. Have you considered going with another payment processor or is the problem related to just one specific client?
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            • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
              Due to large public awareness, will be staying with PayPal. Anyone know the solution to this dilemma? Am willing to pay a good reasonable figure to get this solved.
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          • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
            Sorry Chris,

            Paypal does not provide for this...

            Originally Posted by Chris2014 View Post

            Thanks Sid, it's appreciated. I have looked through that page and what I am trying to do, for yearly subscriptions, is that if a member misses one payment, then PayPal tries again 5 days later, and if that one is missed then again 5 days later and so on. So that 5 attempts over 25 days are done, and then if no payment on the 5th attempt, then the profile is cancelled, (not suspended). and can't find how to do exactly that on the link given.
            "PayPal reattempts to collect recurring payments three days after the day on which recurring payments fail. If the first reattempt to collect a recurring payment fails, PayPal waits 5 days to reattempt a second time. If the second reattempt fails, PayPal cancels the subscription. "

            You can specify NOT to retry at all, or you can elect to use the above retry formula. You don't get any options for how many retries, or how frequently to retry the payment.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
    Fully aware that it's an older thread, but in the hope that technology has progressed since the last post here, has there been any solution for this yet?
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    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Hi Chris,

      Originally Posted by Chris2014 View Post

      Fully aware that it's an older thread, but in the hope that technology has progressed since the last post here, has there been any solution for this yet?
      It's not a technology issue.

      If your subscriber has the funds, the transfer of funds from their account to yours is automatic.
      If not, well... you (nor Paypal) can get blood out of a turnip.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

        Hi Chris,
        It's not a technology issue. If your subscriber has the funds, the transfer of funds from their account to yours is automatic. If not, well... you (nor Paypal) can get blood out of a turnip.
        Not much to do with turnips or blood I'm afraid. More to do with the customer not having the money in the account at the time of the first request, then, when they get the first email from PP, they then (hopefully) put money in their PP account ready for the next try usually 5 days later, hence the valid reason for getting the solution for this. If anyone can help, please post back. Thanks.
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        • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
          OK Chris...

          Originally Posted by Chris2014 View Post

          More to do with the customer not having the money in the account at the time of the first request, then, when they get the first email from PP, they then (hopefully) put money in their PP account ready for the next try usually 5 days later, hence the valid reason for getting the solution for this. If anyone can help, please post back
          Here's your solution.

          Send your own goons to the guy's door and beat it out of him.

          I don't know what it is you don't understand. A "subscription" is valid until such time as the subscriber decides not to renew. If he/she fails to fund the renewal, the subscription is canceled. Pretty vanilla stuff. Pretty well accepted as general practice. You cannot specify a "minimum" number of renewals to a subscription.

          I use subscriptions to provide "installment purchases" as well. But.. if the buyer fails to make all the installment payments, his license to the product is canceled. Not easy to do if the "installment purchase" was for an ebook, but it works well for software/scripts, etc. that can be remotely disabled if the customer doesn't make all the required payments.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
    You seem confused. This is for a recurring payment, and putting it as simple as possible for you, if the customer actually has a chance to put some money into the pp account, the subscription then has less chance of being cancelled - better result for the business!

    If anyone can help please post back.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      I'm not at all confused, Chris.

      I gave you the definitive answer on 1 Nov 2014.

      You don't get to define how many re-bill attempts are made, nor how often they are made. Paypal subscriptions are under Paypal's control, and they only offer you the ability to allow re-bills, or not. They do NOT allow you to specify the number nor the frequency of rebills.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
    You didn't give any definitive answers, hence the need for me to ask again!

    PP used to give it 3 attempts, but now, cancel after just 1 attempt? Apparently, there is a maxfailedpayments coding - which I am currently looking into.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Chris2014 View Post

      PP used to give it 3 attempts, but now, cancel after just 1 attempt? Apparently, there is a maxfailedpayments coding - which I am currently looking into.

      If your subscriptions still are cancelling after one single attempt then you are right thats not normal (although three chances are not normal either). Usually its two at least.

      There is also the facility at least in monthly subscriptions to collect outstanding payments under some circumstances . What you can do is contact the buyer and then suspend the subscription. If your customer is having problems with funding and still wants the item then you can reactivate it after the funds are there. You can suspend payments for quite some time above the five days. the only problem with a yearly subscription is reactivating usually will be for the next payment date (which in that case is year off - however it may preserve the collecting out standing payments option)
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        If your subscriptions still are cancelling after one single attempt then you are right thats not normal (although three chances are not normal either). Usually its two at least.

        There is also the facility at least in monthly subscriptions to collect outstanding payments under some circumstances . What you can do is contact the buyer and then suspend the subscription. If your customer is having problems with funding and still wants the item then you can reactivate it after the funds are there. You can suspend payments for quite some time above the five days. the only problem with a yearly subscription is reactivating usually will be for the next payment date (which in that case is year off - however it may preserve the collecting out standing payments option)
        Thanks for the helpful response Mike. I have sra set to 1, so that would turn on the bit for attempting a failed payment again, but is there any way of setting it to 3 times?
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Chris2014 View Post

          Thanks for the helpful response Mike. I have sra set to 1, so that would turn on the bit for attempting a failed payment again, but is there any way of setting it to 3 times?

          the more common setting that affects attempts is as follows

          https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/we...ptions-outside

          Indicates whether reattempts should occur upon payment failures (1 is yes, left blank is no).
          HOWEVER you are NOT stupid or can't read English as people are claiming. Some development code does allow you to set Maximum Number of Failed Payments

          By including the MAXFAILEDPAYMENTS field in the CreateRecurringPaymentsProfile request, you set the number of failed payments allowed before PayPal automatically suspends the profile. PayPal sends you an IPN message when the number of failed payments reaches the maximum number specified.
          https://developer.paypal.com/docs/cl...rringPayments/

          I don't know if that can be set in the admin panel at Paypal but the answer seems to be YES you can (or at least very recently could) change the failed payment amount through the API . You would just have to read the docs up to see how to do it in an application (PHP, Node Ruby etc) and there might even already be a plugin that sets that up in like say wordpress etc.. The domain above is an excellent place to start and good luck to you. Thank you for raising the issue because it can have as you noted an impact on your business being able to adjust that accordingly.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        If your subscriptions still are cancelling after one single attempt then you are right thats not normal (although three chances are not normal either). Usually its two at least.

        There is also the facility at least in monthly subscriptions to collect outstanding payments under some circumstances . What you can do is contact the buyer and then suspend the subscription. If your customer is having problems with funding and still wants the item then you can reactivate it after the funds are there. You can suspend payments for quite some time above the five days. the only problem with a yearly subscription is reactivating usually will be for the next payment date (which in that case is year off - however it may preserve the collecting out standing payments option)
        Also, I have been succesfully operating the recurring payments with pp for many, many years, and when first started, it used to try 3 attempts to collect the yearly subs, but now, it's suspended after just one failed attempt?
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    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Originally Posted by Chris2014 View Post

      You didn't give any definitive answers, hence the need for me to ask again!
      The answer you were given was in direct accord with Paypal documentation.

      It may not have been the answer YOU wanted to hear... but it certainly was definitive. It was also about 18 months ago, so apparently you have not been able to find a more definitive answer from any other source in the interim.

      PP used to give it 3 attempts, but now, cancel after just 1 attempt? Apparently, there is a maxfailedpayments coding - which I am currently looking into.
      Paypal (at least since May 2010) reattempts after 3 days. If that reattempt fails, a 2nd reattempt is made 5 days later. If that attempt fails - the subscription is canceled. That is 3 attempts total (same as it has always been).

      That is from Paypal documentation dated May 2010, downloaded from Paypal to my hard drive on 23 Sep 2010.

      To my understanding, you are only notified when the first reattempt (after 3 days) fails, and the 2nd reattempt is made 5 days later. Failure of that reattempt results in immediate cancellation of the subscription. That is 8 days (in total) for the subscriber to make funds available in their account.

      If you feel that is insufficient, you should address those concerns to Paypal (you've had at least 18 months to do so). It's the way their subscription system works.

      It's NOT a technical issue. It's a policy issue... Paypal's policy.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

        The answer you were given was in direct accord with Paypal documentation.

        It may not have been the answer YOU wanted to hear... but it certainly was definitive.
        It certainly was NOT definitive. the definition of definitive is right here

        Definitive | Definition of Definitive by Merriam-Webster

        Your answer was not complete. there are remedies for setting up payment which will NOT automatically cancel and they are technical. People leave issues all the time , forget about them and revisit them. An incomplete answer 18 months ago or even 5 years ago does not become complete because its been 18 months.

        Again thanks to Christ for persisting with this so that we could all learn (who want to learn ) how you can setup subscriptions that do not automatically cancel. Using Paypals API to setup such profiles IS how Paypal works.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    They do NOT allow you to specify the number nor the frequency of rebills.
    Maybe you could try in Klingon, Sid. English doesn't seem to be getting through.
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
      Crikey, it's not that difficult to understand. There's coding for maxfailedpayments and I'm just trying to find out more about it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        Hi Chris,

        Originally Posted by Chris2014 View Post

        Crikey, it's not that difficult to understand. There's coding for maxfailedpayments and I'm just trying to find out more about it.
        MAXFAILEDPAYMENTS is NOT the number of attempts to re-bill a failed subscription payment, but the number of "forgiven" failures (individual billing cycles). In your situation, MAXFAILEDPAYMENTS = 2 on the profile would cause the subscription to remain active until the next billing cycle (a year later).

        MAXFAILEDPAYMENTS is not documented as being available for Website Payments Standard. It appears to be available only for Express Checkout :
        https://developer.paypal.com/docs/cl...rringPayments/

        and...
        https://www.paypalobjects.com/en_US/...te_profile.htm
        Maximum Failed Payments - The number of payment periods for which the transaction is allowed to fail before PayPal deactivates a profile.

        For example, if you bill monthly and specify 3, PayPal attempts to process the card for three months (possibly with multiple retries during each monthly payment period). If the transaction is not approved during that time, PayPal deactivates the profile.
        Hope this helps,
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post


          MAXFAILEDPAYMENTS is NOT the number of attempts to re-bill a failed subscription payment, but the number of "forgiven" failures (individual billing cycles).
          it relates to automatic suspensions of the subscription profile due to failed payments (which is what was being asked) as clearly stated in Paypal development docs

          (Optional) Number of scheduled payments that can fail before the profile is automatically suspended. An IPN message is sent to the merchant when the specified number of failed payments is reached.
          at any rate it would then allow for collection (possibly also through outstanding payment collections in Paypal) and give the time needed that Chris was requesting without any thugs involved so we can all rest easier tonight now that finally a legal solution for future cases has been shown to be available.

          [quote]
          Originally Posted by Dano101 View Post

          But in all honesty.

          If a person is struggling broke with no money on their paypal account for 2 attempts. Then that should say that this person can't afford things at the moment and to contact them later.

          Now that may be more work. But it's better than trying to bleed them via PayPal when the money is obviously not there for that person.
          .

          Thats certainly possibility but not that open and shut. I have had people with lost/stolen/ expired cards forget to update them with Paypal, people with temporary low balances on a debit card account and people looking to do transfers that take a few days to complete (and they are unaware of the subscription failures for a few days).

          It happens, so the solution that came up now can help to address those issues. The subscription can continue and allow for more time. Certainly though the seller should just cancel the subscription if the person doesn't have the money at all and doesn't want the subscription and the buyer can also cancel once the seller has contacted them ( I tend to not contact the buyer after the first failed attempt so as not to potentially embarrass the customer. quite often a buyer will come back a week or two later and wonder why service or access is being denied still unaware because of missing paypal notices that anything was wrong)
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          • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
            Hey Mike,

            Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

            (which is what was being asked)
            No... it isn't what was being asked.

            Chris explicitly asked how to increase the number of reattempted billings to 5. MAXFAILEDPAYMENTS won't change the number of reattempts. It will simply forgive the payment after the 2nd reattempt, and bill the customer again on the next billing cycle.

            Since Chris is talking about an annual subscription, his non-paying customer will have access to his product/membership for another year (if he allows a "failed payment") before finally being billed on the next billing cycle.

            Your answer was not complete. there are remedies for setting up payment which will NOT automatically cancel and they are technical. People leave issues all the time , forget about them and revisit them. An incomplete answer 18 months ago or even 5 years ago does not become complete because its been 18 months.
            As explained just above, the other remedy you suggested (MAXFAILEDPAYMENTS) is inadequate for Chris' purpose.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

              Hey Mike,



              No... it isn't what was being asked.
              Yes it was - read the OP Sid. The entire thread is about failed and suspended subscriptions. the question regards suspension of the subscription point blank.

              Originally Posted by Sara Young View Post

              PayPal suspends recurring payments if they fail once.

              Is there a setting I can use to give people another chance to pay?
              Its to this that Chris responds first

              Originally Posted by Chris2014 View Post

              Hi Sara, did you find the answer please?
              Further he has made it clear MULTIPLE times his intent is to give the buyer more time to pay. You are harping on what follows with him asking if its possible to do five but the OP and the intent and context of this thread is to avoid suspension and allow more time to pay. Since it CAN be accomplished with the solution I laid out your answer cannot be considered to be definitive.

              Since Chris is talking about an annual subscription, his non-paying customer will have access to his product/membership for another year (if he allows a "failed payment") before finally being billed on the next billing cycle.
              No.. he can cancel the subscription if he does not get payment but letting it continue until he does so allows for him to collect past owed payments without having the customer restarting a subscription. (I have collected on outstanding balances from withing the paypal admin panel...however on a cancelled subscription its been problematic hit and miss)


              As explained just above, the other remedy you suggested (MAXFAILEDPAYMENTS) is inadequate for Chris' purpose.
              It is not unless you have an issue of comprehension . It adequately extends the amount of time that he can allow the customer to get the funds to pay without the automatic suspension of the subscription. It may not address the present subscriptions but it certainly addresses future ones with the issue he was having - no matter how you deny it. The OP is primarily concerned with non suspension and getting payment. MaxfailedPayments allows for the subscription to stay in force and for the OP and Chris to send multiple notices and then decide to cancel if nothing is worked out.
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              • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                I did read the OP, Mike.

                In fact, unlike yourself, I was participating in this thread pretty much from the outset.

                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                Yes it was - read the OP Sid. The entire thread is about failed and suspended subscriptions. the question regards suspension of the subscription point blank.
                I never responded directly to the OP. You'll notice that she didn't continue participation in the thread, indicating either total disinterest, or satisfaction with the answers that were given at the time.



                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                Its to this that Chris responds first
                Chris' first response is immaterial because he clarified what he was trying to overcome in a later post
                Originally Posted by Chris2014

                Thanks Sid, it's appreciated. I have looked through that page and what I am trying to do, for yearly subscriptions, is that if a member misses one payment, then PayPal tries again 5 days later, and if that one is missed then again 5 days later and so on. So that 5 attempts over 25 days are done, and then if no payment on the 5th attempt, then the profile is cancelled, (not suspended). and can't find how to do exactly that on the link given.

                Are there any members here that can do something like that for payment please?


                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                Further he has made it clear MULTIPLE times his intent is to give the buyer more time to pay. You are harping on what follows with him asking if its possible to do five but the OP and the intent and context of this thread is to avoid suspension and allow more time to pay. Since it CAN be accomplished with the solution I laid out your answer cannot be considered to be definitive.
                You're welcome to quibble over my choice of the word "definitive". Again - I never responded to the OP. I typically quote anyone to whom I respond, so if you pay attention, I don't think there should be any confusion over who I am responding to... nor over the issue/question I am addressing.

                Whether you consider those responses to be "definitive" or not is of little concern to me.

                Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

                No.. he can cancel the subscription if he does not get payment but letting it continue until he does so allows for him to collect past owed payments without having the customer restarting a subscription. (I have collected on outstanding balances from withing the paypal admin panel...however on a cancelled subscription its been problematic hit and miss)

                It is not unless you have an issue of comprehension . It adequately extends the amount of time that he can allow the customer to get the funds to pay without the automatic suspension of the subscription. It may not address the present subscriptions but it certainly addresses future ones with the issue he was having - no matter how you deny it. The OP is primarily concerned with non suspension and getting payment. MaxfailedPayments allows for the subscription to stay in force and for the OP and Chris to send multiple notices and then decide to cancel if nothing is worked out.
                There you go Chris...
                I doubt you'll find that to be a workable solution, but at least Mike will be happy.
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                • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                  Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                  I did read the OP, Mike.

                  In fact, unlike yourself, I was participating in this thread pretty much from the outset.
                  Yes and with many unhelpful comments like hiring goons to beat the customer up. being first is no blue ribbon moment

                  I never responded directly to the OP. You'll notice that she didn't continue participation in the thread, indicating either total disinterest, or satisfaction with the answers that were given at the time...........Chris' first response is immaterial because he clarified what he was trying to overcome in a later post

                  Thats just nonsense. The Op frames the context of the entire thread and Chris has three posts joining the same question before anything else. Your absolute insistence that any other solution or my answer to the issue adds nothing to the thread that is applicable and that your answer is definitive just reveals you are more interested in playing the guru in this thread than learning anything or moving forward a discussion.

                  Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                  Hey Chris,

                  That sounds like there is NO reattempt.
                  "After one attempt" has been stated multiple times in this thread - precisely what the OP stated. This is the second thread in about a week (that I have participated - sure there are far more) where if senior members actually read what newer members wrote the thread would not have gone sidewise and been more useful and less condescending.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post


      Here's your solution.

      Send your own goons to the guy's door and beat it out of him.
      Originally Posted by Brent Stangel View Post

      Maybe you could try in Klingon, Sid. English doesn't seem to be getting through.
      Acutally guys he may or may not be confused but in English it reads that he is having subscriptions cancel after one attempt. If thats true thats not the usual practice and all the stuff about beating people up and Klingon's isn't really helpful
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Acutally guys he may or may not be confused but in English it reads that he is having subscriptions cancel after one attempt. If thats true thats not the usual practice and all the stuff about beating people up and Klingon's isn't really helpful
        Thanks Mike, the support and intelligence is appreciated.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dano101
    I would just email the subscriber and ask if they would like to continue since their paypal doesn't have the funds.

    But some people are blind sided by recurring payments. Especially older people or whatever. So it would be a not good move if PayPal kept trying to drain their account over and over.

    I wonder if PayPal charges these people bounce fees as well. So if PayPal doesn't; Then this could be why they automatically cancel after 1 or 2 tries.

    Because PayPal protects the buyers more than the seller.
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
      Originally Posted by Dano101 View Post

      I would just email the subscriber and ask if they would like to continue since their paypal doesn't have the funds.
      Thanks, but we're talking of 1,000's of (yearly) subscribers and was hoping that if I could find some way of getting it so that they had at least 2 chances to pay, then I probably wouldn't need to intervene at all.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dano101
    But changing the pp code on your site may only work for future subscribers.

    So i would submit a paypal ticket and get to the bottom line.

    Good luck.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Dano101 View Post

      But changing the pp code on your site may only work for future subscribers.

      So i would submit a paypal ticket and get to the bottom line.

      Good luck.
      Yes fair point. Thats most likely the case but as a developer I would like to thank Chris for persisting even against the put downs and insults in asking this question because its a very interesting topic and now i have even learned that you conceivable can set up a subscription to never cancel unless the buyer cancels

      recurring billing - When is PayPal MAXFAILEDPAYMENTS set to No Limit? - Stack Overflow
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      • Profile picture of the author Dano101
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        Yes fair point. Thats most likely the case but as a developer I would like to thank Chris for persisting even against the put downs and insults in asking this question because its a very interesting topic and now i have even learned that you conceivable can set up a subscription to never cancel unless the buyer cancels

        recurring billing - When is PayPal MAXFAILEDPAYMENTS set to No Limit? - Stack Overflow
        Good catch. But I wonder if the customer may have went to their personal paypal settings and chose the number of attempts to 1.

        That option may override the seller.

        But in all honesty; I don't know if PayPal gives the buyer that option.

        So maybe Chris needs to see if that option is available in his customers settings on their paypal accounts.

        This would mean that PayPal has stop trying to collect due to the buyers setting wishes.

        I don't know.
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  • Profile picture of the author Oziboomer
    Just a thought Chris...

    When the subscribers signed up could they have paid via a credit card using Paypal rather than paying as a Paypal User?

    I was thinking if the subscriber paid with a credit card that then expired and they used an email address that they either have changed or don't check then Paypal may not have a way to process or contact the subscriber and so they don't make any further attempts.

    On another note is anyone getting the warnings that Paypal is changing the security settings amongst other requirements and these are going to be enforced from the 17th June 2016.

    https://devblog.paypal.com/upcoming-...hanges-notice/

    Best regards,

    Ozi
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    What he wants to do is force Paypal to reprocess a failed payment 5 times at 5 day intervals....for an annual payment.

    Those of us who have run subscription sites know that money isn't the only issue. A change of credit card or bank acct will cause a failed payment. This is more likely to be a problem when a subscription is an annual payment.

    Some businesses alert members of an upcoming payment. Many businesses don't do that as they are worried people will cancel rather than pay. I don't know which works best as I've only done monthly subscriptions.

    But - Chris gave Mike a chance to bash people and help him out so it's all good. Guess the problem is solved now.

    The same paypal info posted 2 years ago is still valid. If there were an easy solution - shouldn't take two years to find it.

    https://developer.paypal.com/docs/cl...#id08ADFC002A6

    https://developer.paypal.com/docs/cl...#id08ADFL008PA
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    • Profile picture of the author Dano101
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      What he wants to do is force Paypal to reprocess a failed payment 5 times at 5 day intervals....for an annual payment.

      Those of us who have run subscription sites know that money isn't the only issue. A change of credit card or bank acct will cause a failed payment. This is more likely to be a problem when a subscription is an annual payment.

      Some businesses alert members of an upcoming payment. Many businesses don't do that as they are worried people will cancel rather than pay. I don't know which works best as I've only done monthly subscriptions.

      But - Chris gave Mike a chance to bash people and help him out so it's all good. Guess the problem is solved now.

      The same paypal info posted 2 years ago is still valid. If there were an easy solution - shouldn't take two years to find it.

      https://developer.paypal.com/docs/cl...#id08ADFC002A6

      https://developer.paypal.com/docs/cl...#id08ADFL008PA
      Whoa Nelly.

      PayPal is PayPal. So even if you change a card on paypal as your primary. It's still paypal.

      Now paypal can't do recurring payments for someone that's not a paypal member but only used PayPal for the initial buy via a quick credit card transaction.

      Now my only grievance is that Chris states that they have 1000s of subscribers. But only 1 or a few had this happen.

      So I'm sure that Chris wants to make sure that this doesn't happen again.

      But depending on his situation. He may need to actually contact his subscribers personally.

      Now if there is 1000 subscribers but only 10 problems per month. Then maybe he should just bcc emails to the subscribers who check didn't clear that month; Along with a link to how to make it right.

      But in all honesty.

      If a person is struggling broke with no money on their paypal account for 2 attempts. Then that should say that this person can't afford things at the moment and to contact them later.

      Now that may be more work. But it's better than trying to bleed them via PayPal when the money is obviously not there for that person.

      So if you have 1000 subscribers; Then let those 25 go about their merry way since they obviously can't afford it for now.

      Or bcc them once a month with a link to make it right.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      What he wants to do is force Paypal to reprocess a failed payment 5 times at 5 day intervals....for an annual payment.

      Those of us who have run subscription sites know that money isn't the only issue. A change of credit card or bank acct will cause a failed payment. This is more likely to be a problem when a subscription is an annual payment.
      But many times money is an issue and a short term issue. As he has said multiple times his desire is to give the buyer enough time to put money into the account. Those of us who have REALLY ran subscription sites know that often times the buyer is not even aware that there is an issue - this is even more likely to be the case with an annual payment that they are not used to making - for well past the usual time paypal allows. Those of us who REALLY have ran (and still do run ) subscriptions sites have had to reinstated customers subscriptions on multiple occasions because for some buyers the reattempt is too fast.


      But - Chris gave Mike a chance to bash people and help him out so it's all good. Guess the problem is solved now.
      Yes. Of course. implying the guy doesn't speak English but perhaps Klingon would help and being unhelpful with comments about thugs beating the customer were of course not bashing people but being helpful. Biased much? Rhetorical question. Answer well established long ago as affirmative by mountains of evidence.

      The same paypal info posted 2 years ago is still valid. If there were an easy solution - shouldn't take two years to find it.
      It was an incomplete answer that did not give all possible solutions. People can go 10 years without finding an answer to an issue. Thankfully he has more options now and we all can skip the Klingon
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    PayPal is PayPal. So even if you change a card on paypal as your primary. It's still paypal
    It's still paypal - but it's not still a subscription payment.

    You are arguing from the view of "here is how it should work" - I'm posting from having run subscriptions and memberships using paypal for recurring payments.

    Your subscription is based on making a periodic payment at specific times and you authorize use of that payment method. It can't be transferred to another card or bank acct. I think that is legality rather than PP decision.

    Now paypal can't do recurring payments for someone that's not a paypal member but only used PayPal for the initial buy via a quick credit card transaction.
    You can't create a recurring payment subscription with a one time payment through Paypal without logging into a paypal acct. (unless that has changed but wouldn't make sense to allow it).
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    • Profile picture of the author Dano101
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      It's still paypal - but it's not still a subscription payment.

      You are arguing from the view of "here is how it should work" - I'm posting from having run subscriptions and memberships using paypal for recurring payments.

      Your subscription is based on making a periodic payment at specific times and you authorize use of that payment method. It can't be transferred to another card or bank acct. I think that is legality rather than PP decision.

      You can't create a recurring payment subscription with a one time payment through Paypal without logging into a paypal acct. (unless that has changed but wouldn't make sense to allow it).
      Hello Kay. It seems that we agree alot on certain things.

      But I doubt paypal will deny a 1 time sale at all. Even if the person is not a trusty.

      Especially since they get paid for the sale.

      But maybe you are right.

      Maybe the actual credit card company doesn't allow recurring payments for non paypal customers.

      So maybe Chris needs to do his due diligence to make sure that the customer in question is actually a paypal holder or just a 1 time paypal buy.

      Especially since paypal will usually let the first sale go through automatically.

      So if Chris has 1000 subscriptions. Then maybe he shouldn't worry about the few that couldn't do a recurring pay. And just email them later.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        No...


        Originally Posted by Dano101 View Post

        Maybe the actual credit card company doesn't allow recurring payments for non paypal customers.
        It's Paypal that doesn't allow recurring payments except by PP account holders. Credit card companies have nothing to do with it.

        That's because Paypal needs to identify the accountholder to be billed, and details about the amount and recurring nature of the billing.
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        • Profile picture of the author pawandave
          Banned
          It seems strange, it's better to ask paypal support. I don't think there is better place than paypal
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
        Originally Posted by Dano101 View Post

        So if Chris has 1000 subscriptions. Then maybe he shouldn't worry about the few that couldn't do a recurring pay.
        I never said a 1000 subscriptions and I never said a few that couldn't do a recurring pay. The ASSuming thing isn't helping really.
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        • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
          Many thanks to all who have posted helpful posts here, there's obviously been quite a few, so it will take some time to sift through them. A small minority need to realise that manners and respect cost nothing!

          The actual scenario is that the recurring payments are every year and if a customer has failed to pay their yearly sub, the first I know of it, is when I get an email from PayPal, to say:
          Automatic payments from ***** have failed 1 times. As a result, we won't attempt to process these payments again. Please contact your customer direct to collect the outstanding balance.
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          • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
            Hey Chris,

            Originally Posted by Chris2014 View Post

            The actual scenario is that the recurring payments are every year and if a customer has failed to pay their yearly sub, the first I know of it, is when I get an email from PayPal, to say:
            Automatic payments from ***** have failed 1 times. As a result, we won't attempt to process these payments again. Please contact your customer direct to collect the outstanding balance.
            That sounds like there is NO reattempt.

            You should definitely check w/ Paypal. I believe that I saw something about a requirement for any recurring payment to occur within 1 year, and you may be butting up against that (i.e. if the payment fails, a reattempt in your case would occur after that 1 year limit).

            I'll dig to see if I can find the reference to the 1 year time limit that I saw last night, but you shouldn't wait for me.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by Chris2014 View Post


            The actual scenario is that the recurring payments are every year and if a customer has failed to pay their yearly sub, the first I know of it, is when I get an email from PayPal, to say:
            Automatic payments from ***** have failed 1 times. As a result, we won't attempt to process these payments again. Please contact your customer direct to collect the outstanding balance.
            sounds like the setting I first mentioned (first link repeated below) is set to no reattempts

            the more common setting that affects attempts is as follows

            https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/we...ptions-outside
            That needs to be set to one rather than zero

            Then if you use the maxfailed setting on subscriptions the subscription will not cancel automatically and you can send the customer more of your own notices, possibly collect outstanding balances and keep the customer going on the subscription.

            Of course if the customer is just broke or shows they definitely do not want it then you can cancel the subscription on your own (o r the customer can).

            Its a solution if you think about it no matter how insistent (for their own reasons) some are that its not but unfortunately might only help with new subscriptions.
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            • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              Then if you use the maxfailed setting on subscriptions the subscription will not cancel automatically and you can send the customer more of your own notices, possibly collect outstanding balances and keep the customer going on the subscription.
              Any ideas what that particular coding looks like?


              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              sounds like the setting I first mentioned (first link repeated below) is set to no reattempts

              That needs to be set to one rather than zero

              Then if you use the maxfailed setting on subscriptions the subscription will not cancel automatically and you can send the customer more of your own notices, possibly collect outstanding balances and keep the customer going on the subscription.

              Of course if the customer is just broke or shows they definitely do not want it then you can cancel the subscription on your own (o r the customer can).

              Its a solution if you think about it no matter how insistent (for their own reasons) some are that its not but unfortunately might only help with new subscriptions.
              Thanks for the useful help Mike, at the moment, I have the relevant coding set to 'sra' => '1',

              I have tried to call pp but after waiting a couple of times on the line for about 45 minutes I hung up. I also tried through the 'help' link on my pp account a couple of times, the last time about 2 weeks ago, and still no news back.

              I've ried the link you posted, but seemed to give an error?

              It's quite a serious flaw in the pp system - if they could just let me know *before* they suspend the account, it would be better for me, the customer and pp.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                Originally Posted by Chris2014 View Post

                Any ideas what that particular coding looks like?
                unfortunately Thats going to look different depending on what you are working with on your site php, node Javascirpt etc. I really have never messed with that so cant tell you. is it wordpress? If its wordpress you might want to look around and see if you find a plugin that has that built in as the easiest way. Sorry. actual code in a forum setting is a bit intricate and time consuming to do and if its wordrpess i would have to refer to someone else as I am more a ruby Nodejs person.



                It's quite a serious flaw in the pp system - if they could just let me know *before* they suspend the account, it would be better for me, the customer and pp.
                most payment processors just provide the means through APIs to do different things and leave it to cart software vendors to implement them so I know it sucks but Paypal is unlikely to help since they have a solution in the API One failed and auto cancelled IS messed up though. You should get a payment skipped notice first then later a cancelled notice at the least. If its happening a lot then i would suggest getting a programmer on the cheap to add that feature to an existing solution. I can see where that setup can make you lose quite a bit over time.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            I can read what you said - and so can everyone else. Whatever....
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    There is a way to do what you are saying but it requires a Payments Pro acct with Paypal and the Recurring Payments app which carries a monthly fee. PP sends invoices, I believe, when that is the option used. I don't think it applies to this thread though I could be wrong.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mashfi
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    • Profile picture of the author Dano101
      Originally Posted by Mashfi View Post

      I want to create a Paypal account.
      Me too. Lol.

      So are you kidding us. Or are you just from another country that doesn't know how to start a paypal account?
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  • Profile picture of the author carder007
    Banned
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    Not much is helping. You didn't like the answers 2 years ago - you don't like them now. You've complained so now have a champion arguing for you - and others answering who don't know how subscriptions work at all. You have someone absolutely experienced in this area (Sid Hale) answering and you blow it off.

    send the customer more of your own notices,
    But that's not what he asked for. In fact, that is the exact solution Paypal offered him.

    Automatic payments from ***** have failed 1 times. As a result, we won't attempt to process these payments again. Please contact your customer direct to collect the outstanding balance.
    The "1" times may not refer to the repeated attempt but to the fact it is ONE payment due that has failed. As Sid pointed out PP does automatically retry but on its' schedule - not on yours.

    If payment fails, and paypal tries in 3 days, 5 days without success....it's still ONE payment that has failed.
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      Not much is helping. You didn't like the answers 2 years ago - you don't like them now.
      You obviously need to think more clearly, I never said I didn't like any answers. I just wasn't clear on it, and was trying to be more clear on it, that's all! Try to relax a little!
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by Chris2014 View Post

        You obviously need to think more clearly, I never said I didn't like any answers. I just wasn't clear on it, and was trying to be more clear on it, that's all! Try to relax a little!
        I'd just ignore all that now. Theres a certain set here that no matter how illogical will always try to support their fraternity and be upset that one of them or their advice is being contradicted.
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        • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
          Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

          I'd just ignore all that now. Theres a certain set here that no matter how illogical will always try to support their fraternity and be upset that one of them or their advice is being contradicted.
          Thanks Mike, my life is quite chilled and I never let anyone else interfere with that, however, I've been using forums for about 15 years, and this forum has to be one of the most unfriendliest forums on the internet.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mehdib
    Had the same problem for one of our clients, the issue was integration of Bigcommerce with Paypal in that case. Paypal had to make changes to their settings to fix the issue.
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris2014
      Originally Posted by Mehdib View Post

      Had the same problem for one of our clients, the issue was integration of Bigcommerce with Paypal in that case. Paypal had to make changes to their settings to fix the issue.
      Yep, we can never just assume that the bigboy corporations have got it all sorted.
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