Am I the Only Warrior That Doesn't Necessarily Make More Money From Building a List?

24 replies
Hello,

You've heard it all before...

Build a List
Money is in the List
Money is in the Relationship with the List
Money is in the Value with the List

and the list goes on and on...

However, is list building as sexy as everyone thinks?

Has anyone ever actually tested it?

I have tested it and the results vary. If you are selling a high ticket item obviously the person buying is going to need more than just 1 contact to buy. In this situation it's smart to build a list.

However, it most of the niches I've ever entered I made less money by actually using a squeeze page.

100 people come to your site
40 of them sign up
Out of those 40 we'll say 50% open your first e-mail
And out of the 20 that open your e-mail 50% click on the link inside
So you have 10 people going to your sales page. (of course these 10 will get to see your sales page over and over again. That is if they like the e-mails you're sending.)

Whereas, sending them directly to the salespage all 100 people get to see your offer.

I'll state right now that my conversion rate with sending them to a squeeze page has usually been higher on my products. But, when only 40 out of the original 100 people even have a chance to buy your offer I've actually made less money.

So out of the 40 maybe I convert 4% to buyers... (1.6 buyers)
But out of the 100 I convert 3% to buyers so I still make more money. (3 buyers. Even if it's a 2% conversion that still gives you 2 buyers versus 1.6 buyers.)

**The above is a hypothetical example. You may actually convert 10% of your list to buyers but you may also actually convert 7% of the people coming to your sales page.

Now this isn't to say that I don't build a list at all. I do build a list but I take the...

Perry Belcher approach!

I build a buyer's list. I send people directly to the sales page and collect all off the e-mail addresses from the people that have purchased.

This way I still have the opportunity to make money and get different offers in front of them. So I am still building the relationship with a list but it isn't a freebie seeker list, it's a buyers list.

There are a few downsides to this approach.

You have to sell a cheap report and not a $97 product. Buying $7 to $20 reports is a no-brainer to a lot of people whereas a more expensive product will definitely make them think twice.

You also have to have decent copy. (otherwise building a relationship through e-mail might be better)

But also realize that building an e-mail list also requires you to have decent copy.

1. You have to have the sqeeze page to get people to join your list.
2. You have to have the email subject lines to get people to open.
3. You have to have interesting body copy to get them to read the email.
4. You have to make it interesting enough to get them to click the link inside.


Anyway, I'd like to hear your opinions on this. Am I the only one that makes more money without building a (freebie seeker) list?
#building #list #make #money #necessarily #warrior
  • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
    As someone who has not tested it yet, logically I must asume that you only make more money in the short term where as the list gives you more chances over the long term.
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    • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
      Originally Posted by Cathy Shelver View Post

      As someone who has not tested it yet, logically I must asume that you only make more money in the short term where as the list gives you more chances over the long term.
      You just reached 100 thanks, I will hopefully be there soon
      Signature
      'If you hear a voice within you say "you cannot paint," then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.' Vincent Van Gogh.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ldimilo
    Originally Posted by DaveJ13 View Post

    Am I the only one that makes more money without building a (freebie seeker) list?
    Ummmmm....I am sure that there are a couple more folks like you in here that doesn't list build.

    The reason why building a list has nothing to do with one time sales and has everything to do with future sales.

    That's the short answer...FWIW
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    • Profile picture of the author Okane
      A list is instant on-demand traffic at your hand.

      If you want to promote a new product, then what's better:

      a) Write one email with your affiliate link and pre-sell copy
      b) Set up a new mini-site (or blog) with the pre-sell copy and start writing ten articles a day to drive traffic to that mini-site

      I prefer (a).

      Marc
      (likes lists)
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by DaveJ13 View Post

    Out of those 40 we'll say 50% open your first e-mail
    I thought you said you'd tested it?

    If only 50% of people who sign up at your site are opening your very first email, with respect, you need to test something very different.

    Originally Posted by DaveJ13 View Post

    So out of the 40 maybe I convert 4% to buyers... (1.6 buyers)
    But out of the 100 I convert 3% to buyers so I still make more money.
    Bizarre. You're converting 3% without building a list? But immediately losing 50% of people who opt in before they even open an email from you? The most compelling reason imaginable for you not building a list, for sure.

    Originally Posted by DaveJ13 View Post

    **The above is a hypothetical example.
    Ah.

    I knew it didn't quite ring true, somehow.

    Why are you giving only a "hypothetical" example, if you've actually tested it?

    Originally Posted by DaveJ13 View Post

    Am I the only one that makes more money without building a (freebie seeker) list?
    I don't know what you mean by a "freebie seeker" list. If you're attracting only freebie-seekers, you need to test other ways to attract people to your lists, I think. But if you exclude the two words in parenthesis there, which change the meaning so dramatically, and ask if you're the only one who makes more money without building a list, I don't think you are, because you haven't convinced me (or even tried to, with anything more than a confabulated "theoretical" example) that you do make more money without building a list. And you can't be "the only one", if you're not "one" at all.

    And that's all just an additional afterthought to Cathy and Ldmilo's very fundamental point above, of course.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Pawlett
    I think as Alexa has torn a hole in most of your arguments and Ldimilo and Cathy hit the nail on the head with their comments on longevity.

    I personally completely disagree with the freebie vs buyer argument; there are too many factors to consider before you can make the distinction:

    For example:
    I may want to look at your work before I buy a product to check out the quality.

    I may have no option if I only get to a squeeze page; therefore I’m forced to be a freebie seeker!

    Anyone who knows how to use email to market a product would also know how to turn these ‘Freebie Seekers’ (your words not mine) into a buyer by adding value and creating a relationship.

    Building a list is an asset, one of the most valuable asset most people will ever own.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
      Money is not in the list. The real money is in the quality of the relationship
      you have with your list.

      So you need to provide more value and build a
      relationship with the people on your list before you can
      access their wallets
      Signature

      “The first draft of anything is shit.” ~Ernest Hemingway

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      • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
        Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post

        Money is not in the list. The real money is in the quality of the relationship
        you have with your list.

        So you need to provide more value and build a
        relationship with the people on your list before you can
        access their wallets
        You are a clever guy, but I would politely disagree with you

        The money is in the quality of the data on your list, the relationship is important - but is never the defining factor when it comes to lists (online or offline)

        I'm sure you'll agree with me if you think about it deeply, or over time
        Signature
        'If you hear a voice within you say "you cannot paint," then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.' Vincent Van Gogh.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ldimilo
          Originally Posted by oneplusone View Post

          You are a clever guy, but I would politely disagree with you

          The money is in the quality of the data on your list, the relationship is important - but is never the defining factor when it comes to lists (online or offline)

          I'm sure you'll agree with me if you think about it deeply, or over time
          Hmmm....it sounds to me like you are "Dr. Spoc-ing" list building.

          You have 2 separate lists. One list is very responsive because they value your relationship...the other is a typical list. List A has 5,000 people. List B (typical list) has 10,000 people.

          List A has an open rate of 52.8% and a click through rate of 38%.

          List B has an open rate of 20% and a click through rate of 5%.

          You both send the same $20 offer. List A converts at 20%. List B converts at 50%.

          Which list does better?

          List A- $4,000
          List B- $500

          Responsiveness is key here and I don't care what anyone says, the closer you are in terms of relationship with your list, the more money you will make because of the trust earned. And no data set in the world will be able to compare to a list in which both the marketer and the parties interested like each other.

          I know this because I have lists that produce very good returns with very small numbers.
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          • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
            Originally Posted by Ldimilo View Post

            Hmmm....it sounds to me like you are "Dr. Spoc-ing" list building.

            You have 2 separate lists. One list is very responsive because they value your relationship...the other is a typical list. List A has 5,000 people. List B (typical list) has 10,000 people.

            List A has an open rate of 52.8% and a click through rate of 38%.

            List B has an open rate of 20% and a click through rate of 5%.

            You both send the same $20 offer. List A converts at 20%. List B converts at 50%.

            Which list does better?

            List A- $4,000
            List B- $500

            Responsiveness is key here and I don't care what anyone says, the closer you are in terms of relationship with your list, the more money you will make because of the trust earned. And no data set in the world will be able to compare to a list in which both the marketer and the parties interested like each other.

            I know this because I have lists that produce very good returns with very small numbers.
            You have messed with the wrong guy, with an IQ of 165

            But seriously, let me clear it up for you so you understand...

            EXAMPLE 1 (Poor quality data):


            You have a list of 100,000 broke students who have opted in.

            You build up a great relationship with them.

            The open rate is through the roof.

            Think you're going to be selling them anything?

            No, because the money is in the quality of the data on your list.

            The data = broke students = poor quality data

            The relationship you have with the list cannot overcome the poor quality data, because it is NOT the defining factor.

            EXAMPLE 2 (High quality data):

            You have a list of 100,000 rich students who have opted in.

            You don't build up a great relationship with them, and rarely e-mail them.

            The open rate is very low.

            Think you're going to be selling them anything?

            YES, because the money is in the quality of the data on your list.

            The data = rich students = high quality data

            The quality of the data CAN overcome a poor quality relationship, because it IS the defining factor.

            Also I did not say the relationship with your list is not important, I said it is not the defining factor.

            And I have just proven it now, so print out my post and thank the list master

            Just joking, but please have a think though it until you "get it" as it is very important to understand.

            It makes me sad to see so many people not understanding this, and making a pittance from their lists.

            Sure, have great relationships with your lists - but never forget that you must create lists with high quality data on them to make serious money...
            Signature
            'If you hear a voice within you say "you cannot paint," then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.' Vincent Van Gogh.
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            • Originally Posted by oneplusone View Post

              You have messed with the wrong guy, with an IQ of 165

              But seriously, let me clear it up for you so you understand...

              EXAMPLE 1 (Poor quality data):


              You have a list of 100,000 broke students who have opted in.

              You build up a great relationship with them.

              The open rate is through the roof.

              Think you're going to be selling them anything?

              No, because the money is in the quality of the data on your list.

              The data = broke students = poor quality data

              The relationship you have with the list cannot overcome the poor quality data, because it is NOT the defining factor.

              EXAMPLE 2 (High quality data):

              You have a list of 100,000 rich students who have opted in.

              You don't build up a great relationship with them, and rarely e-mail them.

              The open rate is very low.

              Think you're going to be selling them anything?

              YES, because the money is in the quality of the data on your list.

              The data = rich students = high quality data

              The quality of the data CAN overcome a poor quality relationship, because it IS the defining factor.

              Also I did not say the relationship with your list is not important, I said it is not the defining factor.

              And I have just proven it now, so print out my post and thank the list master

              Just joking, but please have a think though it until you "get it" as it is very important to understand.

              It makes me sad to see so many people not understanding this, and making a pittance from their lists.

              Sure, have great relationships with your lists - but never forget that you must create lists with high quality data on them to make serious money...
              Awesome post, thank you.
              Signature

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              • Profile picture of the author discrat
                I dont build a List with one of my Sites because I did do that and lost money. This Site of mine is free CPA signups and the mantra of my site is ways to make free money online. (which incidentally is worded in my Domain ).

                People come to my Site lookng to make money without spending it. I provide resources and CPA Signups ( survey Sites) for them to have this opportunity. They are not their to open up their wallets. Thats fact !!

                When I tried a List I wrote 10 autoresponder series and it was brilliant. It included a 10 step procedure in instructing them how to take Surveys. At the end of each email follow up I would have the URL of a different Survey Site to sign up with. And I would make commission off each signup. But after about 10 months I was very disappointed and got less signups with building this List than without one.

                So there are DEFINITELY instances where you can make more money without a List. I am proof of that.
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                Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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        • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
          Originally Posted by oneplusone View Post

          You are a clever guy, but I would politely disagree with you

          The money is in the quality of the data on your list, the relationship is important - but is never the defining factor when it comes to lists (online or offline)

          I'm sure you'll agree with me if you think about it deeply, or over time
          Why do you provide quality content to your list?

          To gain their trust and build a relationship with them

          EDIT: Here's an example:

          When I constantly receive high quality content emails from a marketer, won't I start trusting him?

          And there will be a time when I will make a purchase from him and that will be because he has amazed me with all the awesome (free) content and I trust him so I won't think twice before buying from him.

          So the quality of your content determines the quality of relationship and trust you will build with your list and people will buy from you not just because you provide great content but because they have read great content from you and they trust you.

          Hope it makes sense
          Signature

          “The first draft of anything is shit.” ~Ernest Hemingway

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  • Profile picture of the author shane_k
    Interesting that you think that the problem is with building lists

    Maybe the real problem is the quality of traffic that you are directing to your site. Maybe it is not targeted enough.

    Maybe your email headlines suck. Have you tested different headlines?

    Maybe your ad copy in your emails that you send prospects suck. Have you tested those out?


    Shane_k
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  • Profile picture of the author tecHead
    To the Newbies, (of IM and/or List Building), it is best to view a list as an asset and nothing more. Its a SINGULAR tool is the vast array of tools you'll need to become successful, online; (measuring success along the basis of what YOU perceive as your own personal success(es)).

    It would behoove you to not get caught up in the list is the end all be all of Internet Marketing and the only way you can actually make money misconception.. because you'll be selling yourself and your business short.

    In response to the OP; IF you're testing then you already realize that there is NO "one size fits all" scenario for ANY online business endeavor, let alone ANY business model. Thus, your tests are more than likely (mostly) isolated to your business and/or business model.

    The ONLY "end all be all" consistent that can even remotely rein true in the IM world is test, test, tweak and test some more. Period.

    Everything else is just practice and theory.

    Just my 2ยข
    PLP,
    tecHead
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek S
    I sell my own product and tested a squeeze page not all that long ago. I had 40% opt in rate and less than a 1% conversion rate on a product that converts 2-5% regularly.

    Needless to say I took down the squeeze page, but did I stop building a list...

    Nop!

    Everyone who enters their email on checkout, automatically gets added to a buyers list with Aweber. I'm only interested in my sales letter conversion rate and building a list of buyers I know use their credit cards

    squeeze pages should only be used as the beginning of your sales funnel, when you don't have a product of your own to sell.

    cheers
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    --- Work Smart... Not Hard ---

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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Brock
      Let me give you some real life examples of one of my lists.

      I spent the past year and a half building a list of about 6000 with a mix between buyers and freebies - about 20% buyers, 80% freebie.

      Every single week I sent out extremely killer content to that list, promoted at max once per month...

      Results on a promotion were at most $500 in sales per promotion of affiliate products.

      I then just recently built a list of about 3500 buyers in the span of about 14 days....provided them some value up front, but a lot less recurring value and significantly more promotions at about 2 promotions vs 1 freebie per week..

      Even though that is is brand new list and is significantly less cultivated, it out performs the list I spent 1 and a half years pouring my soul into by around 5 times.

      It's about having a list of buyers. I believe this so much that I am no longer focusing on building out my freebie list. Comparatively speaking, it's been a waste of time. It's funny because your freebie subscribers are the ones who always complain when you end out a promotion LOL
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    • Profile picture of the author ShaunAllen
      I better mention also that I sell my own products too. I've never had much luck list building or not promoting clickbank offers. I always did a lot better with selling a $10 report in some niche than I did promoting anything on Clickbank.

      I can understand moreso building a list if you don't have your own product.


      Originally Posted by Derek S View Post

      I sell my own product and tested a squeeze page not all that long ago. I had 40% opt in rate and less than a 1% conversion rate on a product that converts 2-5% regularly.

      Needless to say I took down the squeeze page, but did I stop building a list...

      Nop!

      Everyone who enters their email on checkout, automatically gets added to a buyers list with Aweber. I'm only interested in my sales letter conversion rate and building a list of buyers I know use their credit cards

      squeeze pages should only be used as the beginning of your sales funnel, when you don't have a product of your own to sell.

      cheers
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    • Profile picture of the author buslead
      Originally Posted by Derek S View Post

      squeeze pages should only be used as the beginning of your sales funnel, when you don't have a product of your own to sell.

      cheers
      I agree, I think this thread relates to a thread the other day which consisted of an argument about whether Affiliate marketing was a business or a job.

      It centred around whether a business generated a long term asset that it could control much like similar ditinctions offline.

      For me I think if affiliates don't generate a relationship/list then they have nothing to manage, but otherwise they do have an asset and can use this to build future revenue.

      Of course, the better qualified people on the list are the more responsive they will be, so it is counterproductive to create copy in a squeeze page that doesn't remove "freebie chasers", putting a low value purchase near the beginning of the process, is one way of providing qualification of the future behaviour.
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  • Profile picture of the author ShaunAllen
    I completely agree as I kind of touched on this in my first post. It's great to tell the newbie to build an email list. But if he/she doesn't even know how to write any type of copy doing it via email isn't going to be any easier.



    Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

    "Money is in the list" is as big a cliche as "take action". It is meaningless on its own.

    People can talk about relationships, trust, future sales etc. but ultimately a list is a tool for increasing conversion i.e. making more money per person that comes through your traffic funnel.

    Now a lot of people are told "money is in the list". They make their first list and it doesn't convert at all because their emails are so bad. They actually lose more money with a list.

    Personally I don't make much out of list building. I am still learning. I find it incredibly difficult to write good emails and it does not come naturally to me.

    In fact, I would say that, in the same way that most people are not good copywriters, most people are also not good email copy writers either.
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  • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
    There is nothing wrong with list building, but there is also nothing wrong with not list building. At the end of the day whatever you do is about retaining eyeballs.
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