OMGBBQ!!1!ONE!! Online marketer does $4 million in sales per hour!! WITH PROOF!

shazam

14 years ago

Not to me they don't, I'd never buy a HP product again.

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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

Originally Posted by shazam

Not to me they don't, I'd never buy a HP product again.

No offense intended, but at $4 million/hour in sales, something tells me they're not losing any sleep over it either.

I'm not waving a banner for HP. I'm demonstrating the abject foolishness of some of the internet marketing conversations that go on.

"Corporations are idiotic and can't market"

"We know how to market better than corporations"

ad nauseum

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MichaelAppleton

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

No offense intended, but at $4 million/hour in sales, something tells me they're not losing any sleep over it either.

I'm not waving a banner for HP. I'm demonstrating the abject foolishness of some of the internet marketing conversations that go on.

"Corporations are idiotic and can't market"

"We know how to market better than corporations"

ad nauseum

Yeah somehow I don't think a WSO backlink package and some bookmarks can cut it with the big corps :rolleyes:

I know, I know some marketers here are really on top of their game but just goes to show you these big corps know there is money on the net and they are grabbing it with both hands.

How long will it be before even medium sized businesses have an in house online marketing manager I wonder? Get your CV's out guys.

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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

Okay, so to once again point out how people shape their own interpretations of things based on selective deletions and filterations, I will, for posterity sake, quote my original post with a VERY IMPORTANT KEY WORD QUALIFIER HIGHLIGHTED that I believe a few folks passed over... and then further engaged in a response to me based on the emotional response they created for themselves based on the altered meaning of the original communication.

Amusing actually. After reading this, the offenders will clearly know who they are.

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

No offense intended, but at $4 million/hour in sales, something tells me they're not losing any sleep over it either.

I'm not waving a banner for HP. I'm demonstrating the abject foolishness of some of the internet marketing conversations that go on.

"Corporations are idiotic and can't market"

"We know how to market better than corporations"

ad nauseum

If you are one who intepreted some sweeping, blanket indictment of yourself personally, I can't be held responsible for your inability to accurately comprehend the words that are actually written on the page vs. the interpretation that you arbitrarily assign from an emotionally-defensive standpoint.

While some may not appreciate my style or candor, the purpose was to spark a discussion about what can actually be learned by observing best internet marketing practices of some major corporations instead of painting broad sweeping brush strokes about how idiotic major corps are, and how supposedly so much better at marketing a guy is after reading a couple ebooks bought out of the WSO section.

It would appear that with some responses I accomplished my mission. A few observant people interested in the discussion have formed a couple of sides of opinion and are engaging in an actual discussion about the merits of HP's marketing, corporate marketing efforts on the internet vs. individual entrepreneurs, and even opportunities that can be addressed IN the business world by those who are astute enough to apply their skills to a business problem.

Inertia being what it is and all... sometimes it takes a different approach to actually move a mountain.

Unlike SOME, I can take the direct criticisms where some can't even accept a generalization... separating the men from the boys and all...

Originally Posted by healymedia

How do you know HP hasn't tested all of these marketing techniques and come to realize that in the end the extra effort and cost doesn't bring in enough extra revenue to make it worth it?

I think your post here is EXACTLY the kind of post that Michael posted this thread as a response to.

You sarcastically say "superb marketing", yet you have literally zero idea of what HP has done, tested, they're business operations, previous sales histories, customers profiles, etc.

You name off a bunch of things that might be fantastic for online marketing like most of us around here do, but in no way does that mean any of it would do HP any good.

Could it? Maybe? I don't know. And neither do you. Yet you have no problem denouncing HPs marketing sarcastically.

People Michael isn't trying to say HP RULZ and PWNS you all because they do in sales. He's trying to say that you just because YOU don't like that they don't do x or y with their marketing, or that they don't market the same way YOU do doesn't mean they don't know how to market online. They aren't you and you aren't them.

People shouldn't assume that large corporations are behind the curve in marketing just because they don't use the same techniques we do.

BINGO!

Originally Posted by Tsnyder

I don't think Michael's point is that HP, or any other large corporation
is better than us on a social level. I think his point is that there have
been many members of this forum post nonsense about how uneducated
corporations are about marketing online when, in fact, many of those
large corporations are pretty much top shelf when it comes to online marketing.

I think Michael is telling some of us to "keep it real."

Tsnyder

BINGO!

In fact, as it was suggested I am indeed "keeping it real" by engaging in this kind of discussion.

Originally Posted by ryanman

And let's not forget that comparing them to internet marketers is like comparing an elephant with an ant.

They have billions in funding & can literally grab the biggest market share anywhere they please including the web.

But that doesn't preclude our ability to identify things that a large company does well, and apply a version of it to our own smaller business.

There are actually people on the warrior forum who dismiss ANYTHING done by a corporation, and openly claim that online info product marketing is the fount from which all marketing knowledge flows.

I'm simply suggesting that might be a little myopic.

Originally Posted by MichaelAppleton

...
How long will it be before even medium sized businesses have an in house online marketing manager I wonder? Get your CV's out guys.

Many already do.

And interesting that you bring this up because a lot of folks would rather stew in their own very mediochre entrepreneurial dream juices, floundering from one thing to the next rather than capitalizing on their skills as a service provider when a tidal wave of opportunity is cresting.

But dream chasers being what they are and all... nevermind, I'll get criticized for that one too.... lol

Originally Posted by peter.max

The point that Michael made in the OP is that the online market extends way beyond what many IMers get in contact with (the orange vendors above) and there are many untapped opportunities for those with IM skills that want to expand

Hit the nail on the head!

That's been my criticism of SOME of the conversations that have gone on at Warrior Forum for quite some time.

But instead of recognizing the criticism of the act of rejecting massive opportunities of learning and wisdom from traditional business, SOME are content to wallow in their own, self-aggrandizing limiting belief that the embodiment of all cutting edge marketing knowledge is somehow exclusive of the domain of major corporations... and socked away in some secret squirrel $47 PDF document for sale only in the WSO section of the Warrior Forum.

Thanks for clearly understanding that Peter. You've earned a gold star on my board.

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peter.max 14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

Thanks for clearly understanding that Peter. You've earned a gold star on my board.

No worries. I just see all the opportunity to apply what IMers know to other offline businesses. I sit on both sides of the fence and I don't think IMers always appreciate how much they know and how to apply it. I see all these posts where people are asking how to make $100 a day. I personally think it is hard to try and sell IM to other IMers. Sell it to people who will pay for the value (trick is you must deliver value). It might not be the $4million a day in the headline here, but that are opportunities out there.
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Super Affiliate

14 years ago

Wow, that's unbelievable. Guess they don't need to know how to market online after all.

Joe

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ryanman

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

BUT BUT BUT BUT THOSE STUPID CORPORATE PEOPLE DON'T KNOW HOW TO MARKET ON THE WEB!!!!

And let's not forget that comparing them to internet marketers is like comparing an elephant with an ant.

They have billions in funding & can literally grab the biggest market share anywhere they please including the web.

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George Wright

14 years ago

I get out a lot.

I see the orange venders gathered around the orange sellers at the central produce market in LA.

Their conversation is a lot different than the Grocery store managers I know. You would never hear the street corner orange vendors saying "Do you think we should include a coupon in the mail out this week?" I have heard this from the Store Managers.

Same goes for the electronic booths at flea markets and the Clerks at Frys.

The conversations are just different.

Michael I respect you a lot and I've actually had a few attitude changes based on some of your posts. However,

It's really a put down when you post as if all the "dummies" here on the forum have no clue that there is another world out there. We know it. We also have the sense to know whether we are street vendors or Pig farmers or Multi-Million dollar corps.

And believe it or not Some of us are content being what we are. The GREAT ONES don't make us feel bad one bit.

You have always proved that we have "betters" out there but we don't need proof. You seem to travel in both worlds, good for you.

At least you still hang around us nare-do-wells

so we can glean from your wisdom. Others who think we don't have a clue are long gone or banned.

Thanks again for reminding us that our conversations are not that great. Hey raise the bar.

Now I'm back to my shopping cart to load it up with more oranges, ur I mean eBooks.

With much respect,

George Wright

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Ken Strong

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

BUT BUT BUT BUT THOSE STUPID CORPORATE PEOPLE DON'T KNOW HOW TO MARKET ON THE WEB!!!!

I'm really glad that HP is doing so well. I have an old friend who's been working there for 25 years. He hasn't had a raise in years and is just glad he still has his job while many of the people around him are being laid off.

But that's neither here nor there. What does a company with over $50 billion in assets and over 300,000 employees have to do with the mostly solo entrepreneurs (or wannabe entrepreneurs) at this forum?

I also enjoy reading your posts most of the time and value your expertise and contributions here, and for offering glimpses into a world that most of us don't have any experience in. Your constant put-downs of the members here are becoming boring, though.

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Tom Goodwin

14 years ago

Unless I missed it on my 5 times through the short article, the article is not stating that this division does $4M in online sales each hour, so perhaps your intro although truthful is somewhat misleading. Time to call the FTC ;-)

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

This online marketer does $4 million in sales per hour. Deadly serious with proof!

HP Sells $4 Million Worth of Computers Each Hour, 2 Sold Every Second

BUT BUT BUT BUT THOSE STUPID CORPORATE PEOPLE DON'T KNOW HOW TO MARKET ON THE WEB!!!!

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Christian Sawyer

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

Unless I missed it on my 5 times through the short article, the article is not stating that this division does $4M in online sales each hour, so perhaps your intro although truthful is somewhat misleading.

Ya, I don't think it states anything about online sales...

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4morereferrals

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

This online marketer does $4 million in sales per hour. Deadly serious with proof!

HP Sells $4 Million Worth of Computers Each Hour, 2 Sold Every Second

BUT BUT BUT BUT THOSE STUPID CORPORATE PEOPLE DON'T KNOW HOW TO MARKET ON THE WEB!!!!

Yes and im sure the Massive TV and Print media buys - as well as their 100 yrs BRANDING campaign has nothing to with those numbers. Thats al on line direct sales thru PPC and "online" affiliates ?

Ahhh the sales one might generate with a Marketing War Chest the size of HP's ...

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Tom Goodwin

14 years ago

I wonder how much it costs for Jay-Z to do a TV commercial for you? Perhaps I should approach him to do an ad for my get rid of acne site

Hell, Jay-Z's suit in this commercial probably costs more than most WF member's make online in a year.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Originally Posted by 4morereferrals

Yes and im sure the Massive TV and Print media buys - as well as their 100 yrs BRANDING campaign has nothing to with those numbers. Thats al on line direct sales thru PPC and "online" affiliates ?

Ahhh the sales one might generate with a Marketing War Chest the size of HP's ...

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DrewClement

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

I wonder how much it costs for Jay-Z to do a TV commercial for you? Perhaps I should approach him to do an ad for my get rid of acne site

Hell, Jay-Z's suit in this commercial probably costs more than most WF member's make online in a year.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Probably millions, which is why they had to cut their marketing budget by not showing his actual face throughout the entire commercial. The deal probably came at half price that way hahaha.

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MichaelRay

14 years ago

Originally Posted by DrewClement

Probably millions, which is why they had to cut their marketing budget by not showing his actual face throughout the entire commercial. The deal probably came at half price that way hahaha.

Most probably it's not even Jay-Z himself.

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Tsnyder

14 years ago

I don't think Michael's point is that HP, or any other large corporation
is better than us on a social level. I think his point is that there have
been many members of this forum post nonsense about how uneducated
corporations are about marketing online when, in fact, many of those
large corporations are pretty much top shelf when it comes to online marketing.

I think Michael is telling some of us to "keep it real."

Tsnyder

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Christian Sawyer

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Tsnyder

I don't think Michael's point is that HP, or any other large corporation
is better than us on a social level. I think his point is that there have
been many members of this forum post nonsense about how uneducated
corporations are about marketing online when, in fact, many of those
large corporations are pretty much top shelf when it comes to online marketing.

I think Michael is telling some of us to "keep it real."

Tsnyder

Ya, but no where in that article does it state the point of sale. I could make a post on the forum saying "HP DOESN'T NEED TO MARKET ONLINE: HERE'S PROOF!", and assume all sales (or a majority) were made offline.

Obviously, we know that this isn't necessarily true. Although, I'd be willing to bet that a large percentage of their sales ARE NOT made online.

-Christian

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Ken Strong 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Christian Sawyer

Ya, but no where in that article does it state the point of sale.

That's true.. this thread makes even less sense than I thought it did.

Oh, well, everyone has an off day now and then.
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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Christian Sawyer

Ya, but no where in that article does it state the point of sale. I could make a post on the forum saying "HP DOESN'T NEED TO MARKET ONLINE: HERE'S PROOF!", and assume all sales (or a majority) were made offline.

Obviously, we know that this isn't necessarily true. Although, I'd be willing to bet that a large percentage of their sales ARE NOT made online.

-Christian

I'm pretty sure if Wal-mart were selling my products I could move a few more items, as well.

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Rob Howard 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

I'm pretty sure if Wal-mart were selling my products I could move a few more items, as well.

I would gander, maybe...say...2 more a day.

Rob
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MichaelHiles 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

I'm pretty sure if Wal-mart were selling my products I could move a few more items, as well.

Well of course.

So to your point Dennis... how would you go about developing a business plan to secure a distribution channel volume like Wal-Mart, and how would that impact the development of your business?

What would a strategy be to establish distribution relationships with entities that could move a lot of volume of product?

Are you presently operating in a market segment that presents high volume distribution partnering relationships? (after all, Wal-Mart doesn't provide a distribution solution for every kind of product out there... they don't sell porno magazines or adult toys for example...)
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Tom Goodwin

14 years ago

Perhaps...but what do you think an average reader would infer from this headline: "online marketer does $4 million" hourly? Do you think that the reader would infer that they spend loads of $$$ for Jay-Z among others to do TV commercials for them and that only a portion of that $4million would be online sales.

Originally Posted by Tsnyder

I don't think Michael's point is that HP, or any other large corporation
is better than us on a social level. I think his point is that there have
been many members of this forum post nonsense about how uneducated
corporations are about marketing online when, in fact, many of those
large corporations are pretty much top shelf when it comes to online marketing.

I think Michael is telling some of us to "keep it real."

Tsnyder

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4morereferrals

14 years ago

I bought a $600+ all in one HP printer/scanner from Office Max last year - filled out the warranty card - gave them my email address for a tech support issue - and they have my phone, email and home address - age and demo's likely from the store that swiped my CC.

They never thanked me for my business ... they never offered me anything of value as an upsell - they never followed up with me on my tech support issue, and I still have to go to the freakin Brink N Morter to get replacement toner cartridges - because theyve never so much as mentioned a peep about a discount for using their affiliate codes or nothing ...

Superb marketing ...

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4morereferrals

14 years ago

Originally Posted by healymedia

How do you know HP hasn't tested all of these marketing techniques and come to realize that in the end the extra effort and cost doesn't bring in enough extra revenue to make it worth it?

I think your post here is EXACTLY the kind of post that Michael posted this thread as a response to.

You sarcastically say "superb marketing", yet you have literally zero idea of what HP has done, tested, they're business operations, previous sales histories, customers profiles, etc.

You name off a bunch of things that might be fantastic for online marketing like most of us around here do, but in no way does that mean any of it would do HP any good.

Could it? Maybe? I don't know. And neither do you. Yet you have no problem denouncing HPs marketing sarcastically.

People Michael isn't trying to say HP RULZ and PWNS you all because they do in sales. He's trying to say that you just because YOU don't like that they don't do x or y with their marketing, or that they don't market the same way YOU do doesn't mean they don't know how to market online. They aren't you and you aren't them.

People shouldn't assume that large corporations are behind the curve in marketing just because they don't use the same techniques we do.

You're right!

nobody who buys an HP printer ever runs out of toner cartridges at similar intervals ...

Nobody else appreciates ... being appreciated for their business.

Nobody else appreciates ... follow thru on a tech support issue.

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4morereferrals

14 years ago

Originally Posted by healymedia

So your complaint in your earlier post was that you had to go to the B&M store to get them? I don't get it? How is that HPs fault? If the B&M sells them, why don't you blame the B&M for not offering them online?

Last I checked ... the box had HP's label on them - it's HP's product - not office max's.

And if sending you that "Gee thanks" email doesn't do ANYTHING for HP's sales, then is it bad marketing that they don't send you one? Do you KNOW what effect such an email would have on HPs sales? Because remember, HP and you are not the same. Surely you aren't just making assumptions?

Your right - nobody has ever proved customer appreciation stuff works. Im sure it just must not work in computers / tech gadget sales.

I'm sorry if your experience wasn't as good.

I never said it wasnt. I stated they aren't all that great at marketing - just because they can buy massive amounts of TV / Radio and Print Media - and can attract huge JV's/Affiliates like Best Buy Amazon/ Walmart et al ... their products features and superiority sell far more unuts than their PPC ad prowess and email list marketing ...

But that doesn't mean you have clue 1 about HPs business, their systems, their marketing, their customer and sales history, what they have and haven't tested, etc.

Nope I dont - you're right again.

Also, being snide and sarcastic doesn't make your points any more valid.

Ok ... you're right again.

Again, I think Michaels point is that HP (and the other major corporations they're meant to represent in this example) and the vast majority of us are in such different worlds that it is ridiculous for people to think they know more about marketing or are further ahead in marketing than these large corporations

.

Ok we can agree on something ... but to assert that they are all awesome at ONLINE MARKETING because they can sell a boatload of units - from OFFLINE marketing seems disconnected as well

Yet people seem to have no problem thinking they know better and that these large corporations are dinosaurs who don't know anything about modern marketing and the internet.

I dont know inner workings of HP - you are correct.

Your assumption that I have no interactions with large corporations marketing depts and marketing activities is not accurate.

I think most folks here are discussing large corps and "modern marketing ON the internet."

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Alan Petersen 14 years ago

Where's the screen shot for proof?

I'm not sure what other thread set this off but I do agree with Ken that comparing little ole us vs. a behemoth like HP doesn't make sense.

Not sure what the actual total of that $4 million an hour is from online sales but nice market for affiliate marketers. Yea competitive but lots of money there.
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JohnMcCabe

14 years ago

Originally Posted by 4morereferrals

I bought a $600+ all in one HP printer/scanner from Office Max last year - filled out the warranty card - gave them my email address for a tech support issue - and they have my phone, email and home address - age and demo's likely from the store that swiped my CC.

They never thanked me for my business ... they never offered me anything of value as an upsell - they never followed up with me on my tech support issue, and I still have to go to the freakin Brink N Morter to get replacement toner cartridges - because theyve never so much as mentioned a peep about a discount for using their affiliate codes or nothing ...

Superb marketing ...

You're talking about two entirely different distribution models.

It may say HP on the box, but you are not HP's customer. Office Max is. So is Walmart. And Office Depot. And on it goes.

If you're disappointed with any marketer's lack of direct-sales style follow-up, you should be disappointed with Office Max. They're the ones dropping the ball, as nothing is stopping you from getting your supplies from Office Depot or ordering them from Amazon.com.

About the closest thing I can think of in "online marketing" is the model where RAP users allow affiliates to resell products for 100% commission. In return, the reseller assumes responsibility for refunds. It's not that close, but the closest I could think of at the moment.

Tom, even if only 10% of that $4 mil per hour came from online sales, it still makes Reese and Kern look like pikers with their million dollar launches.

To all...

Michael Dell started by assembling computers and selling them out of a dorm room. He built that into a multi-billion dollar business. Along the way, he had to grow and change what he was doing, and to do that, he had to admit that what he was doing was no longer good enough.

If you're happy being an orange vendor, revel in being an orange vendor. If you want more, study what those who have more do.

[Note: I'm jumping into this late because the genius the county hired to open up the drainage ditches found it easier to cut my phone wire with a shovel than work around it with his backhoe. 25 hours later, I'm back online...]

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paulie888

14 years ago

As George mentioned above, it's a case of watermelons and oranges. Two completely different worlds with different paradigms, and marketing for one will never be confused with another, whether it is marketing costs, methods or approach. Furthermore, HP is selling physical products whereas the majority of us are selling digital ones. There simply is no comparison. We may be able to adapt some forms of HP's marketing to what we do and vice versa, but on the whole these are two completely different marketing paradigms.

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peter.max

14 years ago

The point that Michael made in the OP is that the online market extends way beyond what many IMers get in contact with (the orange vendors above) and there are many untapped opportunities for those with IM skills that want to expand

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E. Brian Rose

14 years ago

In case any of you are thinking that they are spending way too much in marketing and those sales mean nothing... HP Quarter 4 net revenues = $1.7 billion

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jmart57 14 years ago

Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose

In case any of you are thinking that they are spending way too much in marketing and those sales mean nothing... HP Quarter 4 net revenues = $1.7 billion

So, what`s the initial outlay on advertising to gain close to $7 billion p/annum....can we get this on clickbank?
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Lance K 14 years ago

Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose

In case any of you are thinking that they are spending way too much in marketing and those sales mean nothing... HP Quarter 4 net revenues = $1.7 billion

Agree.

But just out of curiosity, do you have the sales figures for the same quarter?
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DogScout

14 years ago

All sweeping statements are idiotic

heard Dell does pretty well too. Know Pedigree dog food does well. Proctor & Gamble ain't no slouch either. Microsoft could use some help though. Lol.

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George Wright

14 years ago

Yes,

You are very skillful at accomplishing your missions. And your "If the shoe fits wear it" application is duly noted.

That being said you are very condescending to those who disagree with you and give great attaboy pats on the head to those who agree with you.

It's all good.

I "get it."

George Wright

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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

Originally Posted by George Wright

Yes,

You are very skillful at accomplishing your missions. And your "If the shoe fits wear it" application is duly noted.

That being said you are very condescending to those who dissagree with you and give great attaboy pats on the head to those who agree with you.

It's all good.

I "get it."

George Wright

Not at all.

I am more happy to debate... even downright fistfight over an issue at the level of the issue.

It does take a small person to make something personal though... and an even smaller one to make something personal because they didn't actually read what was on the page and responding accordingly in a personal manner.

If the shoe fits, wear it. You're in charge.

PS... I give even better attaboy pats to those who put up a tangible fight in a debate vs. making something personal...

PPS... if you're content where you're at... then disregard my conversation as not being directed at your market demographic and go on with your oranges... the discussion is clearly aimed at those who are interested in a different level of business... no harm no foul... it's a big community.

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DogScout

14 years ago

BTW, Michael, Your sig is intriguing. Will be interested in what that will look like/work like.

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MichaelHiles 14 years ago

Originally Posted by DogScout

BTW, Michael, Your sig is intriguing. Will be interested in what that will look like/work like.

I'll hit you with a link via PM when I go beta.
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- DogScout 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by MichaelHiles
  
  I'll hit you with a link via PM when I go beta.
  
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George Wright

14 years ago

You are a much better debater than I Michael. I know that.

I'm not debating, or fighting, I'm just saying there are more than one legit ways to look at things. Being dogmatic and trying to stomp on people who disagree is a bully tactic and I have to give you that, you are a good fighter.

George Wright

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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

Originally Posted by George Wright

You are a much better debater than I Michael. I know that.

I'm not debating, or fighting, I'm just saying there are more than one legit ways to look at things. Being dogmatic and trying to stomp on people who dissagree is a bully tactic and I have to give you that, you are a good fighter.

George Wright

I only come out swinging when I am attacked at a personal level.

Outside of that, it's 100% about the issue and position with me, not the individual.

My position is that a lot of people on the Warrior Forum dismiss important business development wisdom because it's "corporate" or "doesn't apply to their little ebook business". And further, when confronted with the discussion, there's more rationalization than actual position in the debate.

Now I happen to believe that a lot of people are defensive because they were "worked over" by a corporate job... maybe dumped out in the layoff line... had a dickweasel boss that was more interested in developing the fifedom than the company bonus pool... whatever.

But eventually we have to get past those sorts of biases and recognize truth and wisdom from wherever it comes.

To the previous point... there's an emerging wave of opportunity for a lot of people to capitalize on their skills and knowledge back in the business world. But a lot of people will miss the boat (and then further blame everything else under the sun) because they weren't thinking like a business person.

But again, if this doesn't apply to you, your goals, or objectives, then clearly you're not my "target market" with this kind of discussion and there's a nice topic just a link above or below this one about something else.

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Fraggler

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

My position is that a lot of people on the Warrior Forum dismiss important business development wisdom because it's "corporate" or "doesn't apply to their little ebook business". And further, when confronted with the discussion, there's more rationalization than actual position in the debate.

It isn't just 'online' either where small business owners get their back up when told to have a look at what the 'big boys' do. I don't know whether it is stubbornness or ignorance but I have met many small business owners that have their blinkers on when bringing up the tactics many larger businesses use.

Sure, there are many things that they might do that you don't like, but don't let that blind you from what they are actually doing well.

"I just don't like it" won't make your business better. Why don't you like it and how would you do it better?

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drmani

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

This online marketer does $4 million in
sales per hour. Deadly serious with proof!

HP Sells $4 Million Worth of Computers Each Hour, 2 Sold Every Second

BUT BUT BUT BUT THOSE STUPID CORPORATE PEOPLE DON'T KNOW
HOW TO MARKET ON THE WEB!!!!

Nokia sells more than a million phones every day - that's around 41,000 units
per hour... or 11 every SECOND!

Of them, 260,000 are smartphones... more than all its competitors combined.
(This is still PER DAY)

And Samsung sells 750,000 daily.

Yep, dumb corporates! :lol:

Originally Posted by KenStrong

He hasn't had a raise in years and is just glad he still has his job while many
of the people around him are being laid off.

Guess their ex-CEO took care of all that, huh?! (tongue in cheek!)

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

...there's an emerging wave of opportunity for a lot of people to capitalize on
their skills and knowledge back in the business world. But a lot of people
will miss the boat (and then further blame everything else under the sun)
because they weren't thinking like a business person.

Someone (I think it was Seth Godin or Mark Joyner, quoting Colin Powell)
once said the biggest asset a leader can develop is the ability to CLEARLY see the battlefield!

That's how a winning strategy can be planned, and then executed.

Not by wearing blinders and wishing away the wider world 'out there'!

All success
Dr.Mani

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Tom Goodwin

14 years ago

We all know the real reason why Nokia is the leading cell phone manufacturer and it has nothing to do with marketing...

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Originally Posted by drmani

Nokia sells more than a million phones every day - that's around 41,000 units
per hour... or 11 every SECOND!

Of them, 260,000 are smartphones... more than all its competitors combined.
(This is still PER DAY)

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skorpion

14 years ago

Wow, that's amazing. Really puts things into perspective...and this is just for one brand!

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Michael Mayo

14 years ago

OMGBBQ!!1!ONE!! Online marketer does $4 million in sales per hour!! WITH PROOF!

Michael, Where the hell is this guy selling the killer BBQ?
If he's making 4 million and hour off it I want to try some!

Good post topic,
Have a Great Day!
Michael

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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Mayo

Michael, Where the hell is this guy selling the killer BBQ?
If he's making 4 million and hour off it I want to try some!

Good post topic,
Have a Great Day!
Michael

Owensboro. Where else? lol

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Jason Fladlien

14 years ago

Well if we really want to brag about marketing, HP is a poor example for computers. Let's talk NET, not GROSS. Apple sells far less computers but sure does show more profits.

Real marketing is NET, not gross.

For example, I know a lot of gurus who do high six/low seven product launches. Yet when they pay their affiliate manager 10%, pay affiliates 50%, pay SUPER affiliates 65 to 75%, pay for the leads contest AND the sales contests, and pay all other outsourced workers (copywriters, graphics, customer support agents, launch mangers, etc.) and expenses (merchant fees, bandwidth, email fees, etc.)... that 1,000,000 gross launch comes out to about $100,000 net. (ESPECIALLY after refunds)

Oh and that's not counting the opportunity cost of all the reciprocal mailings they'll have to fulfill AFTER the launch.

I can do a 50k net launch with 3-4 affiliates and a whole lot less stress and without kiting the price of the product to 2k. I'm not nearly as famous as some of these big name gurus, but that's okay with me

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DogScout

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jason Fladlien

Well if we really want to brag about marketing, HP is a poor example for computers. Let's talk NET, not GROSS. Apple sells far less computers but sure does show more profits.

Real marketing is NET, not gross.

For example, I know a lot of gurus who do high six/low seven product launches. Yet when they pay their affiliate manager 10%, pay affiliates 50%, pay SUPER affiliates 65 to 75%, pay for the leads contest AND the sales contests, and pay all other outsourced workers (copywriters, graphics, customer support agents, launch mangers, etc.) and expenses (merchant fees, bandwidth, email fees, etc.)... that 1,000,000 gross launch comes out to about $100,000 net. (ESPECIALLY after refunds)

Oh and that's not counting the opportunity cost of all the reciprocal mailings they'll have to fulfill AFTER the launch.

I can do a 50k net launch with 3-4 affiliates and a whole lot less stress and without kiting the price of the product to 2k. I'm not nearly as famous as some of these big name gurus, but that's okay with me

The money in selling computers is NOT in the computer sales... it is in the extended warranties and after sale paid service.

I was in car sale for 27 years. If a dealership had to rely on sales to crack the nut, they'd go under. Fact is, most months and every year, new car sales looses money. Used cars usually makes a little and the service department kills. If you base on just the immediate net, that is a hard nut to crack, your competition (assuming THEY know how to up/down/cross and after sell) will kill you. I would bet they lose at least a hundred dollars a sale, and make 500+ on that sale over the next 5 years. That's how a business runs those less understanding out of business. (Take a lesson from the Chinese, in 25 years they will not just own the Canadian tar fields, the Vensulea oil sands, ½ of Vancouver, the Panama Canal, every African oil company and non-diamond mine worth owning... they'll own us as well.

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Jason Fladlien

14 years ago

Oh, I agree. But just look at the public financial records of the two companies and you'll see which one is more profitable OVERALL and it ain't HP.

Originally Posted by DogScout

The money in selling computers is NOT in the computer sales... it is in the extended warranties and after sale paid service.

I was in car sale for 27 years. If a dealership had to rely on sales to crack the nut, they'd go under. Fact is, most months and every year, new car sales looses money. Used cars usually makes a little and the service department kills. If you base on just the immediate net, that is a hard nut to crack, your competition (assuming THEY know how to up/down/cross and after sell) will kill you. I would bet they lose at least a hundred dollars a sale, and make 500+ on that sale over the next 5 years. That's how a business runs those less understanding out of business. (Take a lesson from the Chinese, in 25 years they will not just own the Canadian tar fields, the Vensulea oil sands, ½ of Vancouver, the Panama Canal, every African oil company and non-diamond mine worth owning... they'll own us as well.

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paulie888

14 years ago

These big firms have multi-million dollar marketing and advertising budgets, and can afford to blow $1 million plus on Superbowl ads without even needing to justify a positive ROI on them. Internet marketers are obviously operating with an entirely different paradigm, and the two simply cannot be compared. In addition to that, the figures may be a little misleading as these are gross figures - the profit margins on personal computers these days are very slim, and their NET profit figures from selling them are going to be significantly smaller as a result!

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drmani

14 years ago

Originally Posted by paulie888

These big firms have multi-million dollar marketing and advertising budgets.... Internet marketers are obviously operating with an entirely different paradigm, and the two simply cannot be compared.

BUT...

There are lessons to be drawn from everything. And many can be applied on a smaller scale.

The REAL message in this thread is that one.

Don't blind yourself to possibilities... they are EVERYWHERE around us.

EDIT/UPDATE:

Some ideas, right from this thread:

1. A video promo for your product/service, showing only part of
the endorser's face... with buzz building around the theme:

"Is that REALLY Jay-Z ?"

Can't you do it?

2. Writing copy that compels the right audience to take a look.
This thread's title is:

"OMGBBQ!!1!ONE!! Online marketer does $4 million in sales
per hour!! WITH PROOF!"

Hooks? Curiosity. Wild claim. Proof!

Can't you use it?

3. The Nokia Transformer snippet is cool. Do you know a
blender company became famous through YouTube by doing
something similar?

They popped all kinds of weird things into their blender
- and recorded it!

Including an iPhone, when it first launched (gasp!)

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Can't you try it? (btw, I just noticed... this video got EIGHT MILLION views!!!
And it cost the company next to NOTHING to produce it!)

4. Think about HOW this news item got so much buzz?

Right. It's featured on TechCrunch.

Getting on Mashable, TechCrunch or any other high profile
blog in your niche is more an issue of relationship building
and persistence than big bucks.

Can't you manage it?

5. News spreads in sound bites.

"Bradley says that HP is selling $4 million worth of computers
in his group every hour, with 2 computers sold each second."

23 words. Punchy message. Spreads virally.

Not at all hard to replicate in your business, whatever it is,
no matter how small or big, rich or poor in cash.

Can't you craft one for yours?

Hope this helps

All success
Dr.Mani

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dougp 14 years ago

Hmm, as mentioned in previous posts, where the heck did you get online sales from? It says that no where in the article, which was disappointing. Anyhow, i think the important thing to learn from big corporations is that you need to invest LOTS of money to fuel the growth of your business. The article says that hp sales two million hourly which i dont find hard to believe, but i bet they dont net in that much . Remember, profits = revenue - expenses, and more then likely they are investing hundreds of thousands of dollars into advertising. No doubt they are ranking in the moolah, but how much is a different story.

Doug
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paulie888

14 years ago

Originally Posted by drmani

BUT...

There are lessons to be drawn from everything. And many can be applied on a smaller scale.

The REAL message in this thread is that one.

Don't blind yourself to possibilities... they are EVERYWHERE around us.

EDIT/UPDATE:

Some ideas, right from this thread:

1. A video promo for your product/service, showing only part of
the endorser's face... with buzz building around the theme:

"Is that REALLY Jay-Z ?"

Can't you do it?

2. Writing copy that compels the right audience to take a look.
This thread's title is:

"OMGBBQ!!1!ONE!! Online marketer does $4 million in sales
per hour!! WITH PROOF!"

Hooks? Curiosity. Wild claim. Proof!

Can't you use it?

3. The Nokia Transformer snippet is cool. Do you know a
blender company became famous through YouTube by doing
something similar?

They popped all kinds of weird things into their blender
- and recorded it!

Including an iPhone, when it first launched (gasp!)

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Can't you try it? (btw, I just noticed... this video got EIGHT MILLION views!!!
And it cost the company next to NOTHING to produce it!)

4. Think about HOW this news item got so much buzz?

Right. It's featured on TechCrunch.

Getting on Mashable, TechCrunch or any other high profile
blog in your niche is more an issue of relationship building
and persistence than big bucks.

Can't you manage it?

5. News spreads in sound bites.

"Bradley says that HP is selling $4 million worth of computers
in his group every hour, with 2 computers sold each second."

23 words. Punchy message. Spreads virally.

Not at all hard to replicate in your business, whatever it is,
no matter how small or big, rich or poor in cash.

Can't you craft one for yours?

Hope this helps

All success
Dr.Mani

Dr. Mani, I totally concur with you on this. If you read my earlier post I had actually mentioned extracting and blending parts of their marketing that would be feasible for us to implement, but thanks for taking the time to elaborate on the types of promotions that we could emulate!

Paul

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discrat

14 years ago

I can see both sides of the fence here.

Michael, I think as you have duly noted that many IMers in here are where they are at because they were disgusted with the big ugly , greedy ass Corporations that invade are lives everyday. Thats one reason why many of them started in IM to get away from the rat race of Corporate America. Personally to me living that Rat Race brings down the quality of ones Life in the long run. Health, emotional issues etc... go by the wayside when working and slaving in a Corporation. In the end , when you are on your death bed no one will give a rats ass that you were a regional production manager at Procter and Gamble or chief procurement officer at IBM. In my opinion, your legacy will be more secured with Kinfolks when you demonstrated you could be totally self sufficient in your finances and spend a lot of free time with your loved ones over the years instead of being a Corporate slave.

But I also think you can take some of the positive things that Corporations use to be successful and learn from them and possibly integrate them into your own business model.
So in this way it is in people's best interest to be unbiased when analyzing the health of their business and see what parts of Corporate America they can utilize to make their businesses grow.

Finally, I will have to say that seeing your threads in the last year or two you do seem to have a tone of talking DOWN to the small time business owners here at Warrior. I know, I know you say you are here for constructive debating and brainstorming etc...etc...but in all due respect if you go back and look at some of the things you have said the tone is condescending towards others here at Warrior. You have some incredibly enlightening points and you are one one of the smartest ones in here .........but the fact is you dont have to let everyone know that all the time

And yes people you can decipher tone from the written word !!

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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

I can see both sides of the fence here.

Michael, I think as you have duly noted that many IMers in here are where they are at because they were disgusted with the big ugly , greedy ass Corporations that invade are lives everyday. Thats one reason why many of them started in IM to get away from the rat race of Corporate America. Personally to me living that Rat Race brings down the quality of ones Life in the long run. Health, emotional issues etc... go by the wayside when working and slaving in a Corporation. In the end , when you are on your death bed no one will give a rats ass that you were a regional production manager at Procter and Gamble or chief procurement officer at IBM. In my opinion, your legacy will be more secured with Kinfolks when you demonstrated you could be totally self sufficient in your finances and spend a lot of free time with your loved ones over the years instead of being a Corporate slave.

But I also think you can take some of the positive things that Corporations use to be successful and learn from them and possibly integrate them into your own business model.
So in this way it is in people's best interest to be unbiased when analyzing the health of their business and see what parts of Corporate America they can utilize to make their businesses grow.

Finally, I will have to say that seeing your threads in the last year or two you do seem to have a tone of talking DOWN to the small time business owners here at Warrior. I know, I know you say you are here for constructive debating and brainstorming etc...etc...but in all due respect if you go back and look at some of the things you have said the tone is condescending towards others here at Warrior. You have some incredibly enlightening points and you are one one of the smartest ones in here .........but the fact is you dont have to let everyone know that all the time

And yes people you can decipher tone from the written word !!

Again, if someone doesn't like my bulldog style, then my message and the conversation isn't for you. Unfortunatly, some people interpret confidence as braggadocio or condescenscion. I used believe that myself... until I realized that it was a limiting belief and I was missing the wisdom.

I'm a pussycat compared to most of the extremely wealthy people that I know. If you think I am hell on wheels, guys like Sam Zell, Wayne Huizinga, Pete Karmanos, Leo Mays, Mike Eisner, Trump, Henry Kravis, et al, would eat you for lunch. You want condescending and intimidating personality types? Jeebus these guys are royal dicknozzles!!

BUT!!

They are the embodiment of success and I want to know what they know... do what they do... become what they are.

These are the kinds of people that are my "gurus" and one consistent theme among every extremely successful person I know is to not be ashamed or apologize for who you are, what you know, what you do, and how you do it. The ruffled feathers don't matter - and will probably go on floundering in whatever they're floundering in.

Those who aren't at a certain maturity level of business development -- for whatever the reason -- simply aren't going to "get it".

I'm not talking down to anyone at all. I'm simply presenting things in a blunt, matter of fact fashion because of one reason alone... I WANT PEOPLE TO BECOME SUCCESSFUL IN THEIR BUSINESS IN SPITE OF THEMSELVES.

Imagine that!

And I don't have a hidden agenda as some PDF salesman.

I have a genuine affinity for small, startup business and entrepreneurs. I also happen to know what it takes to become and remain successful over the long haul of the shift in multiple business cycles - and despite the best intentions and efforts of a lot of people here, I don't see much of the kinds of discussions that need to take place in order to help people over the startup hurdles and off to the next stage of survival.

OMG GOOGLE CHANGED THEIR ALGORITHM I'M OUT OF BUSINESS!

OMG PAYPAL CANCELLED MY ACCOUNT I'M OUT OF BUSINESS!

What percentage of people here do you suppose will even be in business in 12 months? 24 months? 36 months?

Even if you have a few $10,000 weeks, how many here are actually thinking like a real business vs. a stereo speaker salesman rolling around in a shopping mall parking lot looking for the next mark?

But getting people's attention doesn't come with the same old nicey nice frolic through the clover field. While people want self-affirming sweet talk, it really doesn't cut it. That sort of thing is for high school kids trying to win popularity contests.

Screw that noise. I'll be the wealthy unpopular guy any day of the week. I've already got friends and I'm not necessarily in the market for very many new ones.

Number one, I don't see very many other people at the Warrior Forum foisting these sorts of issues into the conversation stream. How many regular members of the Warrior Forum are taking up these kinds of discussions?

Number two, even those folks who have been critical of my style are quick to couch their statements with 1) I certainly know what I'm talking about; and 2) I have impacted their own thinking in a positive way.

So if someone were summarize my "persona" on Warrior Forum... he's a sarcastic, cantaknerous, obstinate, overly-confident, even condescending drill sargeant but he knows what he's talking about and contributes a very different level of thought stream that forces people to examine their own beliefs and rationale for those beliefs.

Hells yes, mission accomplished.

So why do I even post at Warrior Forum?

Because there ARE a lot of entrepreneurial folks here. I love entrepreneurs and it helps me refine my own thought processes about things. Plus, one never knows what gem might eventually be found in the raw.

Let's get busy!

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TJ Kazunga 14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

...
What percentage of people here do you suppose will even be in business in 12 months? 24 months? 36 months?

Some great takeaways in this thread but not so much the point above. At least in the UK, 4 out of 5 start ups fail and I'm sure it must be the same in most places.

Businesses fail. Whether they're an IM would be "guru" or a high street shop.

My takeaway from this... don't buy an HP and bring your gloves to the Warrior Forum ... LOL

But seriously, it's good to see some posts with passion, even, dare I say it, a mini debate? It kinds reminds me of a ...forum?
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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

Originally Posted by drmani

BUT...

There are lessons to be drawn from everything. And many can be applied on a smaller scale.

The REAL message in this thread is that one.

Don't blind yourself to possibilities... they are EVERYWHERE around us.

.....

Hope this helps

All success
Dr.Mani

Totally outside the box man! I LOVE IT!!

I'm still waiting on Dennis Gaskill to respond to my questions about his market and Walmart distribution!

How's this for instance...

Instead of creating products around the individual sale... even with lots of market research and study... and then attempting to find and secure distribution channels after the fact...

... why not design products not only with the end customer in mind, but specifically with the distribution channel in mind as well?

Versions of popular brand products are frequently configured and packaged exclusively for a particular distribution channel.

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drmani

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

I'm still waiting on Dennis Gaskill to respond to my questions about his market and Walmart distribution!

Tony Robbins once interviewed Jay Abraham for HARD TALK.

I got a tape recording of that interview along with a welcome pack
Jay sent anyone who asked for it - back in 2001.

I wore that tape out listening over and over. One case study was
of a guy who sold video tapes through a JV with Walmart... and the
brief lesson was VERY illustrative of how joint ventures work.

He lost $4 million the first year - and made $8 million a year,
for many years to come!

That single tape led to my decision to plunk down $5,000 to study
Jay's methods in more depth when I could afford to - in 2004.

And THAT marketing lesson made a deep impact, too... so I've given
away extremely powerful content for free to my prospects, who
have later come back to buy my stuff.

Lessons and experiences abound all around us - we've just got to
tune our antennae to receive them (as I've heard Mark Victor Hansen
put it!)

When I saw your reply to Dennis, the Walmart story popped into my
mind.

What's the online equivalent of Walmart - and how does one get
to tap into its distribution channel?

The interesting thing is 'Walmart' online can be a 'concept', and
not necessarily an entity!

I also *love* the concept of 'tailored product' creation to fit a
channel of distribution. With incremental cost of digital product
creation approaching zero, this is infinitely scalable - AND
customizable.

Time to pull out the plan I once had of offering 'modular' versions
of my complex infoproducts - and allowing prospects to mix and
match the ones they want/like, to 'create' their own version of
my ebook - and give it a 2010-esque twist!

All success
Dr.Mani

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theory expert

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by drmani

Tony Robbins once interviewed Jay Abraham for HARD TALK.

I got a tape recording of that interview along with a welcome pack
Jay sent anyone who asked for it - back in 2001.

I wore that tape out listening over and over. One case study was
of a guy who sold video tapes through a JV with Walmart... and the
brief lesson was VERY illustrative of how joint ventures work.

He lost $4 million the first year - and made $8 million a year,
for many years to come!

All success
Dr.Mani

Oh Jay has repeated that story again just this year (i think it is 2010, maybe 09).

FYI: If anyone wants to hear it just google tony robbins interview jay abraham.

EDIT: Actually Tony Robbins is the one telling the story about walmart on this one, but, it is basically the same story different person. Here is basically what he said.

Year 1 $10-$12 million no profit.

Year 2 $7-$8 million no profit.

Fast forward 6-7 years doing business with walmart they made $500 million with 25% net.

Now this company is the number one video producer in gross units in the country. Walmart loves them, so, much they made microsoft go through them to do business with walmart!

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Tom Goodwin

14 years ago

Originally Posted by drmani

2. Writing copy that compels the right audience to take a look.
This thread's title is:

"OMGBBQ!!1!ONE!! Online marketer does $4 million in sales
per hour!! WITH PROOF!"

Hooks? Curiosity. Wild claim. Proof!

Can't you use it?

IMHO, these are the sorts of misleading headlines that make the WSO section often look like junk. Clearly by using the term "online" the writer is hoping that the reader will imply that such company made the $4M in sales from online business, which couldn't be further from the truth. You can call it good copy if you want, I call it bullsh*t that should be in the outhouse and shouldn't have any place in IM.

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Tom Goodwin

14 years ago

Originally Posted by drmani

3. The Nokia Transformer snippet is cool. Do you know a
blender company became famous through YouTube by doing
something similar?

They popped all kinds of weird things into their blender
- and recorded it!

Including an iPhone, when it first launched (gasp!)

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Can't you try it? (btw, I just noticed... this video got EIGHT MILLION views!!!
And it cost the company next to NOTHING to produce it!)

Next to nothing to produce it? Have you have heard of "product placement" in movies before? I'm sure it cost Nokia a pretty penny to have them use a Nokia-brand phone in Transformers. Was it worth it? Probably, but don't say it didn't cost Nokia anything when it likely cost them quite a bit. Do you think they chose the brand of vehicle to display in the movie out of the goodness of their heart, or did they ask for $$$$$$$$ to feature that brand?

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drmani 14 years ago

Hmmm...

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

You can call it good copy if you want,.

I called it "good copy"?!

I called it "copy that compels the right audience to take a look". You quoted it. That headline made YOU look. Didn't it?

Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin

Next to nothing to produce it? Have you have heard of "product placement" in movies before? I'm sure it cost Nokia a pretty penny to

I was referring to Blendtec's videos on YouTube.

Sure, it 'cost' them the price of an iPhone - to destroy it in their blender.

It brought them nearly 9 MILLION views.

Usually, I'm not this easy to misunderstand and misinterpret. Sorry!

All success
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DogScout

14 years ago

I too will agree. Hp sells them for one fifth as much as Apple does. Apple sells Macs, so not a fair comparison... ? Though HP may recoup $500 in 5 years per sale, Mac does not as they give away free support. (I know it says you have to by it, but you don't, they will still do the support even if you don't pay. Lol) Still Apple averages $2000 more per sale, due largely to the perceived value in owning a Mac, a loyal (but smaller) cult following to whom money is not an issue. Yes they have done a great job in up-front profits. Sort of like Toyota new car sales departments usually also make money on the initial sale. Again, an anomaly, not the norm. Being (or getting yourself) into that catbird's seat takes years and a well thought out long term plan. Most board of directors look at 90 day earnings.

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typoo999

14 years ago

Oh my god :O

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dagaul101

14 years ago

The arrogance of some Internet marketers just because they have made some money on an uncompetitive niche, doesn't give them the right to insult the corporations that have stayed in the front of their industry for years

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Michael, do you know what the problem is my friend? (I am going to regret
getting involved in this as I don't have a horse in this race)

People bring their own emotional baggage to the ring with them. It's human
nature and it can't be helped or stopped. To assume or expect people to
behave in a purely clinical and rational manner when presented with a
post that, quite honestly, did have a bit of "put down" in it, is not
reasonable.

People are people and that will never change.

I see your point clearly. However, it's one that shouldn't even have to be
made. Of course big corporations know how to market. How they hell do
you think they got to be big corporations? Duh! LOL.

For me, your statement was one of those, "Okay, so tell me something
that I don't know" moments in my life.

So what? So they know how to market a hell of a lot better than we do?

So some of us have this misguided point of view that these big guns are
morons?

Can you imagine what's going to happen to some John Doe marketer like
me who is maybe scraping out what many would consider a "good" living
if he were to go to AT&T or HP and say, "Hey, I can teach you how to
market!"

I'd be laughed out of the building.

I know enough to know I can't compete with the big boys.

But Joe Quigley, who owns a gas station down the street (works on my
car) doesn't know beans about advertising online.

THOSE are the people we SHOULD be approaching with our services, and
that's if we even want to go down that road.

I don't. As much as I know how to market online, I don't want the hassle
of having to get him a web site and do local PPC or whatever.

Who needs it? I make more money just doing what I do now.

So let the folks who think that because they bought a few WSOs on
whatever, they know how to approach offline businesses.

Some, they may actually be able to help.

Others, will laugh them out of the building.

And maybe...just maybe...there are a few of us hanging around this
joint (not me) who really know their sh*t and can REALLY help an offline
business.

Yeah, I get you said SOME.

Problem is, I go back to my original point in this reply, you're expecting
an irrational species to act rationally.

That's like Mr. Spock expecting Bones to act like a Vulcan.

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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Michael, do you know what the problem is my friend? (I am going to regret
getting involved in this as I don't have a horse in this race)

People bring their own emotional baggage to the ring with them. It's human
nature and it can't be helped or stopped. To assume or expect people to
behave in a purely clinical and rational manner when presented with a
post that, quite honestly, did have a bit of "put down" in it, is not
reasonable.

People are people and that will never change.

I see your point clearly. However, it's one that shouldn't even have to be
made. Of course big corporations know how to market. How they hell do
you think they got to be big corporations? Duh! LOL.

For me, your statement was one of those, "Okay, so tell me something
that I don't know" moments in my life.

So what? So they know how to market a hell of a lot better than we do?

So some of us have this misguided point of view that these big guns are
morons?

Can you imagine what's going to happen to some John Doe marketer like
me who is maybe scraping out what many would consider a "good" living
if he were to go to AT&T or HP and say, "Hey, I can teach you how to
market!"

I'd be laughed out of the building.

I know enough to know I can't compete with the big boys.

But Joe Quigley, who owns a gas station down the street (works on my
car) doesn't know beans about advertising online.

THOSE are the people we SHOULD be approaching with our services, and
that's if we even want to go down that road.

I don't. As much as I know how to market online, I don't want the hassle
of having to get him a web site and do local PPC or whatever.

Who needs it? I make more money just doing what I do now.

So let the folks who think that because they bought a few WSOs on
whatever, they know how to approach offline businesses.

Some, they may actually be able to help.

Others, will laugh them out of the building.

And maybe...just maybe...there are a few of us hanging around this
joint (not me) who really know their sh*t and can REALLY help an offline
business.

Yeah, I get you said SOME.

Problem is, I go back to my original point in this reply, you're expecting
an irrational species to act rationally.

That's like Mr. Spock expecting Bones to act like a Vulcan.

In the kingdom of the blind, the man with one eye is a king.

So I think you're saying that I should talk to first graders like first graders instead of expecting them to become second or third or even 7th graders.

People tend to rise to meet the level of expectations that are placed upon them.

I expect more from the people who want to reach a higher level. If I set the bar high enough, someone might actually want to reach out for it.

You've made it clear that you're one who is very comfortable where you're at in your business, and don't necessarily want to step outside of your comfort zone. And as long as the market doesn't shift in such a way that you were unprepared to deal with, I wish you the greatest of success in whatever guys like you and George Wright want. I'm here to challenge you in your views and ideas if you want to take it to the next level.

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Tom Goodwin 14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

So I think you're saying that I should talk to first graders like first graders instead of expecting them to become second or third or even 7th graders.

If this is the general tone of your responses (which it appears it is), I am not surprised at the type of responses you get from your posts. Of course, that is not to mention the need to put certain words in mega red font. One can talk rationally about points with doing either of these 2 things.

Tom
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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

In the kingdom of the blind, the man with one eye is a king.

So I think you're saying that I should talk to first graders like first graders instead of expecting them to become second or third or even 7th graders.

People tend to rise to meet the level of expectations that are placed upon them.

I expect more from the people who want to reach a higher level. If I set the bar high enough, someone might actually want to reach out for it.

You've made it clear that you're one who is very comfortable where you're at in your business, and don't necessarily want to step outside of your comfort zone. And as long as the market doesn't shift in such a way that you were unprepared to deal with, I wish you the greatest of success in whatever guys like you and George Wright want. I'm here to challenge you in your views and ideas if you want to take it to the next level.

Nothing wrong with trying to reach a higher level. Nothing wrong with
trying to get people to reach a higher level. That wasn't my point. My
point is in the expectations of how people should react. They're not going
to be met, not when you're dealing with human beings. You can
understand that and accept that or end up being very disappointed in
the behavior of others.

I used to think like you. In fact, Michael, I was worse than you. I had no
tolerance at all for people who didn't meet my expectations.

I've come to realize that there are those I can help and there are those
who are beyond my help.

I have fewer gray hairs because of it.

As for me personally, I won't take offense to your comment about my
not wanting to better myself. I know you meant well.

But better myself to what?

Do I have anything to offer to an HP?

Do I want to do all the work required to improve my knowledge and brand
to be able to offer anything to an HP?

Why? For what reason?

How much money do I need when everything I have in my life (mortgage,
kid's college, credit cards) is paid for?

Do you know what my weekly allowance is for fun money?

$20.

My idea of fun is making music or playing video games.

So why does my life have to be any better than it is now?

I have everything I could possibly want in my life.

My problem is with people who feel that, because you're not earning 7
figures and don't have a yacht and a mansion, you're not successful.

That to me is an elitist attitude and one I find very unattractive.

Sorry...just telling it like I see it.

For those who want that lifestyle, go for it. God bless them.

But for those who are content with what they have in their lives, making
them feel like they're less than they could be and that's somehow a bad
thing, well, you know how I feel about that.

It's elitist and it's unattractive.

I just don't take it personally anymore.

But many people do, and thus the reaction you got.

Just trying to explain why this thread is what it is.

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Kelly Verge

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Why? For what reason?

How much money do I need when everything I have in my life (mortgage,
kid's college, credit cards) is paid for?

Do you know what my weekly allowance is for fun money?

$20.

My idea of fun is making music or playing video games.

So why does my life have to be any better than it is now?

I have everything I could possibly want in my life.

My problem is with people who feel that, because you're not earning 7
figures and don't have a yacht and a mansion, you're not successful.

That to me is an elitist attitude and one I find very unattractive.

Sorry...just telling it like I see it.

For those who want that lifestyle, go for it. God bless them.

But for those who are content with what they have in their lives, making
them feel like they're less than they could be and that's somehow a bad
thing, well, you know how I feel about that.

It's elitist and it's unattractive.

Well said, Steven.

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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Nothing wrong with trying to reach a higher level. Nothing wrong with
trying to get people to reach a higher level. That wasn't my point. My
point is in the expectations of how people should react. They're not going
to be met, not when you're dealing with human beings. You can
understand that and accept that or end up being very disappointed in
the behavior of others.

I used to think like you. In fact, Michael, I was worse than you. I had no
tolerance at all for people who didn't meet my expectations.

I've come to realize that there are those I can help and there are those
who are beyond my help.

I have fewer gray hairs because of it.

As for me personally, I won't take offense to your comment about my
not wanting to better myself. I know you meant well.

But better myself to what?

Do I have anything to offer to an HP?

Do I want to do all the work required to improve my knowledge and brand
to be able to offer anything to an HP?

Why? For what reason?

How much money do I need when everything I have in my life (mortgage,
kid's college, credit cards) is paid for?

Do you know what my weekly allowance is for fun money?

$20.

My idea of fun is making music or playing video games.

So why does my life have to be any better than it is now?

I have everything I could possibly want in my life.

My problem is with people who feel that, because you're not earning 7
figures and don't have a yacht and a mansion, you're not successful.

That to me is an elitist attitude and one I find very unattractive.

Sorry...just telling it like I see it.

For those who want that lifestyle, go for it. God bless them.

But for those who are content with what they have in their lives, making
them feel like they're less than they could be and that's somehow a bad
thing, well, you know how I feel about that.

It's elitist and it's unattractive.

I just don't take it personally anymore.

But many people do, and thus the reaction you got.

Just trying to explain why this thread is what it is.

I think you've misunderstood Steve.

There's nothing wrong with not wanting to stay comfortable and do fun things.

If that's what someone chooses, so be it.

What's funny is how many people who clearly don't fit into the demographic of the targeted communication are trying to decry the communication itself because they (the sole arbiters of whether they fit or not) have determined that it doesn't apply to themselves.

The discussion is for those who want to expand their views beyond their present scope. It's a valid discussion for those who have quite openly represented their having found value... Dr. Mani, et al.

Or did you miss that part?

This thread is what it is because some readers have attempted to make this a one-size fits all discussion, when it clearly isn't. If you're in the market for a Honda, go buy a Honda and stop hanging out in Infinity dealerships.

It's not an "offended me" or "offended you" thing.

It's a fact of life. Having a business discussion about the attributes of cumulative convertable preferred stock in a mezzanine financing arrangement has no meaning to a produce vendor (borrowing George's analogy from before).

But it doesn't diminish the relevance of the discussion for those who are interested in such a thing. And the presence of said discussion should not be seen as a threat or derogatory towards those who don't care or want anything else for whatever their own reasons may be.

I already said numerous times that it's a conversation targeted to those who clearly understand the intent - and openly expressed... Tsnyder, Peter.Max, et al...

You're responsible for assigning your own relevances and values based on what you observe in the world around you.

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

This thread is what it is because some readers have attempted to make this a one-size fits all discussion, when it clearly isn't. If you're in the market for a Honda, go buy a Honda and stop hanging out in Infinity dealerships.

Yes, that's what they've done and I've explained why. I'm not defending
it. Just pointing out why you're getting some of the responses you're
getting. It shouldn't surprise you being in this game as long as you've
been in it, having the kind of success you've had.

It's not an "offended me" or "offended you" thing.

But that is how these people will see it...perception is reality whether we
like it or not. Again, we can choose to understand that and accept it or
get get gray hairs when people don't behave the way we'd like them to.

That is ALL I am saying.

It's a fact of life. Having a business discussion about the attributes of cumulative convertable preferred stock in a mezzanine financing arrangement has no meaning to a produce vendor (borrowing George's analogy from before).

Exactly...it has no meaning or relevance, but people are still going to put
in their 2 cents. Again...human nature.

But it doesn't diminish the relevance of the discussion for those who are interested in such a thing. And the presence of said discussion should not be seen as a threat or derogatory towards those who don't care or want anything else for whatever their own reasons may be.

Never said the discussion wasn't relevant to those who get it. But to
those who don't, they're going to react...again...human nature.

You're responsible for assigning your own relevances and values based on what you observe in the world around you.

You're actually making my point for me. Exactly.

You're getting this reaction from those few because of their own
observations in the world around them.

Again, you can't expect people with preconceived notions and prejudices
to behave the way you think they should behave just because your
argument is 100% logical.

Our brains aren't wired that way.

And I for one am glad they aren't because if they were, this world would
be as boring as Spock's sex life.

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MichaelHiles

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Yes, that's what they've done and I've explained why. I'm not defending
it. Just pointing out why you're getting some of the responses you're
getting. It shouldn't surprise you being in this game as long as you've
been in it, having the kind of success you've had.

But that is how these people will see it...perception is reality whether we
like it or not. Again, we can choose to understand that and accept it or
get get gray hairs when people don't behave the way we'd like them to.

That is ALL I am saying.

Exactly...it has no meaning or relevance, but people are still going to put
in their 2 cents. Again...human nature.

Never said the discussion wasn't relevant to those who get it. But to
those who don't, they're going to react...again...human nature.

You're actually making my point for me. Exactly.

You're getting this reaction from those few because of their own
observations in the world around them.

Again, you can't expect people with preconceived notions and prejudices
to behave the way you think they should behave just because your
argument is 100% logical.

Our brains aren't wired that way.

And I for one am glad they aren't because if they were, this world would
be as boring as Spock's sex life.

We're on the same page.

I am certainly well aware of the limitations. But I am also not put off, nor do I get grey hairs over negative reactions from those the entire stream wasn't ever intended. I realize people will interject, and that's fine too. Maybe they'll learn something... maybe I'll learn something.

I'm actually not expecting anyone to behave in any fashion at all. Just throwing out a provocative topic layered with an even more provocative intent to engage a different kind of discussion.

I think it served its purpose on more than one front, wouldn't you agree?

(I actually think I like being the Rowdy Roddy Piper of the WF)

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Steven Wagenheim 14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

I think it served its purpose on more than one front, wouldn't you agree?

On that I agree 100%. I am sure there are people who got a lot out of this.

And hopefully, somebody who was one of those "I know more than Ajax"
folks will realize that big off line companies actually have some smarts when
it comes to marketing...even if their products aren't the greatest thing since
sliced bread.

But that's another topic for another discussion.

Rod, save me some popcorn doggummit...you hogged it all the last time.

Oh and as for Rowdy Roddy, don't even get me started on my pro
wrestling days.

It's a part of my life I'm almost ashamed to admit I was into.
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- Tom Goodwin 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim
  
  Oh and as for Rowdy Roddy, don't even get me started on my pro
  wrestling days.
  
  It's a part of my life I'm almost ashamed to admit I was into.
  
  What's wrong with that? I was at Wrestlemania III (which held the record for the largest indoor crowd ever to watch a live sporting event...until the 2010 NBA All-Star game took place at the new Cowboy's stadium). The headline match was Hulk Hogan vs. Andre the Giant. I mean, how do you top that?
  
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- Martin Luxton 14 years ago
  
  Michael,
  
  Posting big figures always looks impressive.
  
  Last quarter HP reported GAAP net income of $1.8 billion on sales of $30.73 billion.
  
  Wow!
  
  But, if you look at it another way, their GAAP operating margin decreased to 7.6%.
  
  Not so Wow!
  
  HP has 304,000 employees worldwide (their own figures for 2009)
  
  Wow!
  
  Hourly profit per employee = $2.546
  
  Not so Wow!
  
  Not to mention the massive inventory the company has which could be a dangerous liability when the next leg of the 'W' recession kicks in.
  
  Yes, I agree that SOME people/threads are anti big corporations which might be seen by SOME as unproductive.
  
  But the beauty of the internet is that a small operator can make a good living without all the hassle and risk of going corporate.
  
  For the people here on the WF who might not aspire to go corporate where are the posts or the advice telling people it's OK to stay small? Are HP's marketing methods really relevant to these people?
  
  They might actually be happy (and well-off) running a small business with
  
  No inventory
  
  An operating margin better than 7.6%
  
  Higher net earnings than $2.546 per employee
  
  Martin
  
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  theory expert Banned 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Martin Luxton
  
  Not to mention the massive inventory the company has which could be a dangerous liability when the next leg of the 'W' recession kicks in.
  
  May I ask what the "W" stands for? I'm guessing, world?
  
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  JayXtreme 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by janok
  
  May I ask what the "W" stands for? I'm guessing, world?
  
  The W stands for the "shape" of the recession... as in "double dip"
  
  Down, Up, Down........... Up... W
  
  Sort of makes a W shape on the page... Although this particular 'recession, is making a shape that can't be associated with a letter...lolz..
  
  Other recession type could be V ....
  
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Dan Ambrose

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

This online marketer does $4 million in sales per hour. Deadly serious with proof!

HP Sells $4 Million Worth of Computers Each Hour, 2 Sold Every Second

BUT BUT BUT BUT THOSE STUPID CORPORATE PEOPLE DON'T KNOW HOW TO MARKET ON THE WEB!!!!

I don't know about you.. but it's amazing stories like this that drive me.

Most people in the world assume earning BIG is rare and almost impossible, but the only way that this is true is if you let it be.

Daniel

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Rod Cortez

14 years ago

This thread has some really good marketing lessons, but it's got a heck of a lot of psychology lessons as well. To quote Spock, "fascinating"...........

<continues to chew popcorn>

RoD

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Matthew Shelton

14 years ago

The Hewlett Packard (HP) story is a particularly fascinating one to me. At one time, as the then-owner of harmonica.com, all my online marketing revolved around the harmonica (believe it or not).

How this relates:
One of the first things that Hewlett and Packard worked together on in their garage days was on an invention for: harmonicas – true story.
Gotta start somewhere.

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JayXtreme

14 years ago

I must say folks....

Interesting thread!!.. thanks for keeping it reasonably civil, it made for great reading.

A few things of note..

1. We should all be aware that posts in online forums, are simply the opinions of the person writing, and shouldn't be taken as gospel, or taken too seriously at all.

2. Stay away from the kool-aid, whichever flavour, drinking too much product will make you sick.... <- if you think this applies to you, it probably does

3. Relax and enjoy the discussions, you'll get much more out of them, imho.

Remember... the above is only my opinion, and you are free to ignore it

Peace

Jay

p.s. Michael... :shakes head: and smiles...

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keadams26

14 years ago

Wow. I must be a super dunce. I cannot believe I wasted ten minutes of my life by reading this thread.

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TJ Kazunga 14 years ago

uh...okay?
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JoshuaG

14 years ago

If I were to make a post about how retarded
certain discussions are on WF would I get this much attention too?

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