No Criticism of Gurus allowed?

66 replies
I started a thread few hours ago about how the gurus have, since a couple of months, all started using the 'wrong link, sorry' excuse to send the same email over and again, and it has been deleted. No names were made, no insults, no attack, yet my post got removed, not a warning, not a notice, nothing, I just logged in and the post is no longer there.

Why is it that some moderators think that they should CENSOR rather than MODERATE?? Or maybe the mod who deleted the post is one of the 'gurus' sending out those emails?

This is really not a good way to handle a public forum!

Marco
#allowed #criticism #gurus
  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
    Originally Posted by marcolav View Post

    I started a thread few hours ago about how the gurus have, since a couple of months, all started using the 'wrong link, sorry' excuse to send the same email over and again, and it has been deleted. No names were made, no insults, no attack, yet my post got removed, not a warning, not a notice, nothing, I just logged in and the post is no longer there.

    Why is it that some moderators think that they should CENSOR rather than MODERATE?? Or maybe the mod who deleted the post is one of the 'gurus' sending out those emails?

    This is really not a good way to handle a public forum!

    Marco
    Marco, you might want to skate back where the ice is thicker. It's pretty thin where you are now.

    Threads get deleted for lots of reasons, and they don't always have to do with the original poster. Usually it has nothing to do with censorship and more to do with what unintended consequences are likely from allowing threads like you described to continue.

    Specifically, these tend to turn into unproductive bitch sessions which do turn personal. So unless they have some other value, they tend to go away fairly quickly.

    A final word - from my observation, one of the quickest ways to get your behind bounced out of here is to accuse a mod of deleting threads because the thread threatens their personal business.

    The truth is, I'm hoping this thread lasts long enough for you to read this...
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    • Profile picture of the author marcolav
      Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

      Marco, you might want to skate back where the ice is thicker. It's pretty thin where you are now.

      Threads get deleted for lots of reasons, and they don't always have to do with the original poster. Usually it has nothing to do with censorship and more to do with what unintended consequences are likely from allowing threads like you described to continue.

      Specifically, these tend to turn into unproductive bitch sessions which do turn personal. So unless they have some other value, they tend to go away fairly quickly.

      A final word - from my observation, one of the quickest ways to get your behind bounced out of here is to accuse a mod of deleting threads because the thread threatens their personal business.

      The truth is, I'm hoping this thread lasts long enough for you to read this...
      Thanks, in most forums where I am a member, mods notify you , and it is indeed a built in option of Vbulletin to send a message to the 'offending' member whose post is about to be deleted.

      Marco
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by marcolav View Post

        Thanks, in most forums where I am a member, mods notify you , and it is indeed a built in option of Vbulletin to send a message to the 'offending' member whose post is about to be deleted.

        Marco
        Understood. For future reference, the sheer volume in this forum makes such individual notifications problematic. Not so much the notice itself, but the requests for explanations and then the arguments/negotiations over leaving the post or how much it needs to be modified.

        Rather than open that can of worms, threads judged to be detrimental to the community simply disappear. It's not personal, and just about everyone who has responded here has had threads and posts deleted.

        As another poster mentioned, this forum has a degree of member moderation. If someone finds a post problematic, they hit the little triangle button in the left column to report the post - with their reasoning. If enough people report the post (and the number has not been made public), the thread is removed from public view and the mods notified. If the mod agrees with the reports, the thread is deleted permanently. If not, it returns to public view.

        While a few questionable threads slip through, and a few get nuked in error, the system has worked pretty well for awhile now.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by marcolav View Post

        it is indeed a built in option of Vbulletin to send a message to the 'offending' member whose post is about to be deleted.
        Said message being in secret troll code, which says "please come argue with the moderators; perhaps you could assert your right to free speech, then compare them to Hitler."

        Those of us who have cracked that code and realised what these messages say... no longer send them.
        Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

      Marco, you might want to skate back where the ice is thicker. It's pretty thin where you are now.

      Threads get deleted for lots of reasons, and they don't always have to do with the original poster. Usually it has nothing to do with censorship and more to do with what unintended consequences are likely from allowing threads like you described to continue.

      Specifically, these tend to turn into unproductive bitch sessions which do turn personal. So unless they have some other value, they tend to go away fairly quickly.

      A final word - from my observation, one of the quickest ways to get your behind bounced out of here is to accuse a mod of deleting threads because the thread threatens their personal business.

      The truth is, I'm hoping this thread lasts long enough for you to read this...
      Thus confirming the very point he was making, lol.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Cat,
        Thus confirming the very point he was making, lol.
        Actually, it doesn't.

        There is a difference between someone being banned because they compete with a moderator and someone being banned because they claim the mods are doing that. Which is irrelevant, really, because I don't recall either action ever having occurred.

        When someone goes off on a rant about the mods that includes that allegation, they usually spew a lot of other nonsense along with it. If they persist, they may end up being banned, but not for the "substance" of their claims. The problem is the effect those campaigns (which is what they often become) have on the tone of the forum.

        We've seen plenty of those threads. When someone takes it from the level of civil complaint to personal obsession, they quit thinking about anything but pursuing their "cause." They will hijack threads, and say anything they can imagine to drag the conversation back to their imagined slight. When another member points out their errors, they'll be attacked and harassed for it. The ensuing conversation becomes even more hostile and personal.

        Not useful. And, for the newer members who don't have enough experience to know how things actually work here, it can create a tendency to look for problems where none exist.

        It's actively destructive. That's why those threads tend to get deleted, and the people who make campaigns out of them tend to get banned.

        Mark,
        They seem to be an attempt to help teach someone on forum etiquette, but 9 out of 10 times the person needing the lesson either disappears or never gets it.
        I don't know what the ratio is, but it's true that the people who are the direct objects of the lesson often don't learn, because they're invested in "being right." Some of them do, though, and they tend to become very positive and productive members.

        Members who've been around long enough will recognize at least 4 people commenting in this thread alone of whom that's true. The long-term benefit is significant.

        There's also the fact that, in most cases, I'm not only talking to the person to whom the response is immediately directed. I'm talking to every other person who reads the thread. Many of them are folks who aren't engaged in the discussion, but are following it quietly. They're learning. They may not agree, and they may even be getting a different message than is intended, but they're at least exposed to the thinking behind how the place is run.

        Moderating a place like this isn't a series of isolated acts. It's a process.


        Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    Really?

    You posted a general rant about "all gurus do this" and are surprised it's deleted. You don't even have the "I'm new - just got here" excuse. You assume a mod deleted the thread - but it could have been reports by member mods tired of general "the gurus all do this" complaints.

    If you are receiving emails you don't like - you unsubscribe. You signed up in the first place and if you feel "gurus" are using practices you don't like - why would you allow them to keep emailing you?

    "Wrong link" may be true sometimes (sloppy, but true) and is often a marketing tactic that's been used for years. Re-posting a deleted thread is not a great idea.

    kay
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    Why not post your rant against gurus and the mods here to someone who is willing to listen to them? I'll report you again if I see you post it again.
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    • Profile picture of the author marcolav
      Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

      Why not post your rant against gurus and the mods here to someone who is willing to listen to them? I'll report you again if I see you post it again.
      It was not a rant, it was a comment about a specific 'technique' used by some 'gurus'. But now I get it, if people don't post what YOU want to listen to, then the post gets deleted? how do YOU know that NOBODY wants to listen and maybe confirm that they too think it is a poor , sloppy way of marketing?
      or is there only YOUR way ???

      Marco
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      • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
        Originally Posted by marcolav View Post

        It was not a rant, it was a comment about a specific 'technique' used by some 'gurus'. But now I get it, if people don't post what YOU want to listen to, then the post gets deleted? how do YOU know that NOBODY wants to listen and maybe confirm that they too think it is a poor , sloppy way of marketing?
        or is there only YOUR way ???

        Marco
        You're saying your original thread was not a rant? What about this one then. It really can be construed as a rant against the mods here.
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        • Profile picture of the author marcolav
          Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

          You're saying your original thread was not a rant? What about this one then. It really can be construed as a rant against the mods here.
          I am sure you can construe as a rant anything that you don't like or disagree with...
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      • Profile picture of the author Joseph Ratliff
        Originally Posted by marcolav View Post

        It was not a rant, it was a comment about a specific 'technique' used by some 'gurus'. But now I get it, if people don't post what YOU want to listen to, then the post gets deleted? how do YOU know that NOBODY wants to listen and maybe confirm that they too think it is a poor , sloppy way of marketing?
        or is there only YOUR way ???

        Marco
        Ummm...ok, so you walk into someone else's house...with a little mud on your shoes...and track this all over the carpet?

        We've already had that mud on the carpet here (do a search).

        Why not start your own blog where you can post anything you want (because it's your house)?
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  • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
    Also this isn't a public forum, it's a private one, therefore we have to go with the wishes of the owner

    Kim
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  • Profile picture of the author ElizabethAdams
    .
    Hi, Marco ...

    So it's a "technique," is it?

    I was beginning to wonder if the "gurus" might be suffering
    from some developmental disorder, or something ...

    It just didn't make sense, so many of them having so much trouble
    remembering which link to use ...

    This is probably not the sort of "technique" you'd want to "model" ...
    If you did, your prospective customers might start thinking that
    you're a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic ...

    Anyway, thanks for clearing this up, Marco.

    Regards, Elizabeth


    .
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    It is a marketing forum rather than a rant fest or whiners circle. Just use the search function and search for:

    gurus send "wrong link" emails, waaah waaah waaah and you'll find it's been literally done to death.

    Here's a tip. If you don't like the emails, scroll to the bottom and hit unsubscribe, but your comments on moderation of this forum aren't going to go over very big.

    Not with the mods and not with those who are sick of the guru bashing and other bitch fests.
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    • Profile picture of the author marcolav
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      It is a marketing forum rather than a rant fest or whiners circle. Just use the search function and search for:

      gurus send "wrong link" emails, waaah waaah waaah and you'll find it's been literally done to death.

      Here's a tip. If you don't like the emails, scroll to the bottom and hit unsubscribe, but your comments on moderation of this forum aren't going to go over very big.

      Not with the mods and not with those who are sick of the guru bashing and other bitch fests.
      Thanks, always a pleasure dealing with pleasant individuals like yourself!
      Have a good day, too!

      Marco
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by marcolav View Post

        Thanks, always a pleasure dealing with pleasant individuals like yourself!
        Have a good day, too!

        Marco
        Let's see
        You posted a rant
        Rant was deleted

        You then reposted rant and ranted about the deletion, about censorship and the mods not taking time out to tell you what you are doing wrong
        ... and I'm the unpleasant one?

        I call it like I see it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Marco,

    By the way, many "gurus" have had their threads and/or posts deleted here as well at one time or another for different reasons. It's not that criticism of gurus is not allowed (general criticism, not naming names because that goes against rule #1), but usually when it's done, it's done in terms of saying that they "all" do this or "all" do this or "all gurus" etc. and it's usually done without any concrete proof and usually posed in a way to sound controversial.

    This forum doesn't need that. What we need here is more people talking about how to make money and what's working for them or not working for them.

    RoD
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      I deleted it. Along with several "Anyone know this product" threads and another rant about pop-ups. And I removed from several threads the names of sites with somewhat extreme practices that were being objected to.

      In your case, the thread was nuked because it's the umpteenth time in the last month that the same topic has been hammered on, and it always ends up the same way: A complete waste of everyone's time. The people who want to hate will hate, the people who want to reason will agree that it's sometimes a trick and sometimes simple human error, with little way to know which is which in most cases.

      There are topics and behaviors that are not allowed. If you want to call that censorship go for it. That's the role of a moderator. Ranting about it will accomplish nothing except to make you feel righteous. That feeling simply means you have certain assumptions about how things should work which disagree with what's practical in this forum.

      I'm going to warn you about this once, and once only: Re-posting a deleted thread topic is grounds for a ban of 1 to 2 weeks, the first time. Some of us do it automatically, others look at the rest of the factors.

      Accusing the mods of being in collusion with "The Gurus," or moderating with an eye to our own businesses, just makes you look stupid. People with experience here who pay attention know better.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author humbledmarket
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        I deleted it. Along with several "Anyone know this product" threads and another rant about pop-ups. And I removed from several threads the names of sites with somewhat extreme practices that were being objected to.

        In your case, the thread was nuked because it's the umpteenth time in the last month that the same topic has been hammered on, and it always ends up the same way: A complete waste of everyone's time. The people who want to hate will hate, the people who want to reason will agree that it's sometimes a trick and sometimes simple human error, with little way to know which is which in most cases.

        There are topics and behaviors that are not allowed. If you want to call that censorship go for it. That's the role of a moderator. Ranting about it will accomplish nothing except to make you feel righteous. That feeling simply means you have certain assumptions about how things should work which disagree with what's practical in this forum.

        I'm going to warn you about this once, and once only: Re-posting a deleted thread topic is grounds for a ban of 1 to 2 weeks, the first time. Some of us do it automatically, others look at the rest of the factors.

        Accusing the mods of being in collusion with "The Gurus," or moderating with an eye to our own businesses, just makes you look stupid. People with experience here who pay attention know better.


        Paul
        Wow I'm sure this guy got everyone respect. This is why the Warrior Forum is the #1 Internet Marketing Forum Since 1997.

        Someone violated the rules; it was fixed; the person rant and yet the moderator was patient enough to explain the situation. It really shows their personality.

        Thumbs up

        BTW generally when I think of censorship it's rarely democratic...and I'll let you judge this yourself.

        Sorry just had to post and say koodos to paul. Many of the forums I was previously at was very improperly moderated. Moderators didn't do their job well and the results weren't good. It's such a refreshment to see moderators like those on WF for a change that I needed to post.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by humbledmarket View Post

          Many of the forums I was previously at was very improperly moderated. Moderators didn't do their job well and the results weren't good. It's such a refreshment to see moderators like those on WF for a change that I needed to post.
          I haven't agreed with every moderator action I've seen in the past year and a half here at WaFo, but I've certainly found the treatment of different situations fair and consistent.

          That's about all someone as opinionated as I am can hope to find, and I join you in saluting Paul and all his brethren who have to make those decisions.
          Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author ElizabethAdams
      It is a marketing forum rather than a rant fest or whiners circle. Just use the search function and search for:

      gurus send "wrong link" emails, waaah waaah waaah and you'll find it's been literally done to death.

      Here's a tip. If you don't like the emails, scroll to the bottom and hit unsubscribe, but your comments on moderation of this forum aren't going to go over very big.

      Not with the mods and not with those who are sick of the guru bashing and other bitch fests.

      Suzanne

      Well, Suzanne ... I did like you said ... I put "gurus send 'wrong link' emails"
      into the search box and came up with bupkis, except for this thread ...

      Maybe that's because I left off the waaah waaah waaah?

      I also tried just "wrong link emails" and turned up 11 pages of posts
      and ploughed through 5 pages of them but didn't see a single thing
      about "wrong link emails" ...

      If you have a *specific* link to share, I'd appreciate it if you would ...

      Regards, Elizabeth ...



      .
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by ElizabethAdams View Post

        Well, Suzanne ... I did like you said ... I put "gurus send 'wrong link' emails"
        into the search box and came up with bupkis, except for this thread ...

        Maybe that's because I left off the waaah waaah waaah?

        Regards, Elizabeth ...



        .
        I'm not going to waste my time looking them up for you. I've seen many of them but this should be good enough for you.

        In your case, the thread was nuked because it's the umpteenth time in the last month that the same topic has been hammered on, and it always ends up the same way: A complete waste of everyone's time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Genius! Sheer, absolute, utter genius.

    I'm not the person in question, but I can see how much restraint it would take to make a ladder. And I mean that in a very good way.

    Well played. (Though it's not really a game, I meant it in a metaphoric sense)

    ~Michael
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    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      For those who might have missed Michael's reference, I believe he was referring to my habit of letting people decide their own fate. I give them enough rope, and let them decide if they want to turn it into a ladder or a noose.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
        I was going to ask , but then I thought maybe I should think about it for a while. Thanks for the clarification .

        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        For those who might have missed Michael's reference, I believe he was referring to my habit of letting people decide their own fate. I give them enough rope, and let them decide if they want to turn it into a ladder or a noose.
        Paul
        Paul, are all the moderators as lenient, fair and patient as you are? I was banned for something once that i was being completely naive about (still wrong though I was asking for sales copy advice on a WSO in the copywriting forum). I then often see you using posts and threads that are in my view (which may be the answer to my question) on much thinner Ice than I was, and teaching them not banning them and I admire you for it.

        Please don't construe my question as a complaint or anything, it is not! I just feel the way I have seen you handle out of line warriors has been exemplary, and has often taught those people valuable lessons.

        Having said that this forum is so well run that different moderation styles are obviously an advantage.

        Thanks again

        Cathy


        PS If you ever needed to know I like climbing not swinging so if the need ever arises a ladder please no rope required
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Plenty of the big players in the IM game have had posts removed. Mods have had posts removed. Why even I have had some of my posts deleted and I don't think it's Wright.

    This is an equal opportunity play by the rules or get deleted forum.

    George Wright

    Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

    In case you haven't noticed, WF is the main hangout for "guru" product sellers. That isn't all who is here, but that segment of online biz has pitched their tent here. So don't be surprised if the mods remove anything that may be offensive/troubling/bothersome/whatever to this group. Pointing fingers at their methods is only going to stroke them the wrong way, thus the very negative responses. Post this on a forum where the guru product sellers do not hang out and nobody cares.
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  • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
    Moderators and forum participants want to keep this forum about making money. Yes, there are annoying tactics out there. If we waste time griping about them over and over again, this forum will be littered with useless posts and nothing of real value. So take this in good stride and find an interesting post about Internet Marketing to read and put into action Good luck to you!

    TomG.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
    For real?

    How many bitch fests about gurus does this forum need?

    You know - this is just my opinion, but a line in the rules section needs to be added: "For anyone new, before you go bitching about a certain marketing tactic you don't agree with, do a forum search first.

    Read through it, then calm yourself and go back to making money.

    Any threads that complain about marketing methods will be deleted by the mods at their discretion."

    Just what I think...

    Rob
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Cathy,
      this forum is so well run that different moderation styles are obviously an advantage.
      The different styles are all useful. And, as a group, they make us tend more toward the middle than we might otherwise.

      If I'm not fairly sure about a person's intentions, I tend to give them their rope and remember their choice. If they're over the line and it seems like a deliberate act, or just indifference to the rest of the group, it feels anything but fair to the person on the other end.

      Rob,
      How many bitch fests about gurus does this forum need?
      Yeah. What he said.

      I've started just deleting most of them based on the first post. Just like review requests or "Does anyone know about..." shills in the main section. I don't know or care which is which. This isn't the area for those, and I'm not going to waste the time moving them all, only to find out later that it's the third or fourth thread in Reviews on the same product.

      Don't be surprised if I start deleting threads with empty subject lines, like "Heeelp!" or "I'm annoyed" or the like. If people want to ask others to answer their questions, they ought to have the courtesy to make it clear which others might have the answers, by using subject lines that have something to do with... well... the subject.

      The level of pointless noise has gotten to where the index page needs a sharp smack to get it back in line.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I start deleting threads with empty subject lines, like "Heeelp!" or "I'm annoyed"
        Geez - I was going to start an "I'm annoyed" thread any day now. Was just waiting to find something that annoyed me. So far, no luck.
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        Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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      • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


        Don't be surprised if I start deleting threads with empty subject lines, like "Heeelp!" or "I'm annoyed" or the like. If people want to ask others to answer their questions, they ought to have the courtesy to make it clear which others might have the answers, by using subject lines that have something to do with... well... the subject.
        Amen brother.

        I normally like to go into a "help" thread and see if I can help but it has gotten to the point where I just scan right past them now because of what you stated above..

        Also, these threads where someone thinks they are being clever with the title only to reveal inside that they were just trying to get our attention and "see how powerful this type of headline is" nonsense.

        I don't know how many times over the years that I have been sucked into a thread thinking it was one thing and it turns out to be something else.

        (Sorry for the tangent. Rant for another day and another thread
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    • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
      Marco,

      Read this dude...
      ____________________________________________
      The main overriding rule for this forum is this:

      If you have a problem with another Warrior, a Guru, or God, take it up with them directly. Not here. No exceptions.

      ____________________________________________

      Your post was clearly expressing a problem with certain guru(s), therefore was obviously violating the overriding rule of this forum.

      Everyone has to play by the rules, whether we agree or disagree with them.

      And making false/malicious accusations against the mods, is definitely not something you want to be doing.
      Signature
      'If you hear a voice within you say "you cannot paint," then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.' Vincent Van Gogh.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    If someone really has a problem with a guru, then they should really be blaming the market. Because if it weren't for the idiots who buy into the schlep, there wouldn't be "gurus" selling it. People can get up at arms over "gurus" all they want, but in the end, if they weren't selling the stuff, someone else would be BECAUSE THERE'S A MARKET FOR IT.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Originally Posted by marcolav View Post

    Why is it that some moderators think that they should CENSOR rather than MODERATE?? Or maybe the mod who deleted the post is one of the 'gurus' sending out those emails?

    This is really not a good way to handle a public forum!

    Marco

    And this is a terrible way to handle your issues with the management of this forum...

    As a person who has done moderation in certain venues, it may seem on the other side that it is censorship, and an answer from me is, "Tough..."

    Moderators in this forum or any other venue have a responsibility to keep things within the terms of use, protect the site from litigation, and to squash any thread that has a proven track record of wasting forum resources...

    So what? You did not get to waste any system resources by instigating another great circle jerk... "Tough..."

    Personally I am glad that the mods here take that position, because in the end, your post was probably just another pointless ramble trying to stir up the flames of animosity...
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    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Bill,
      Personally I am glad that the mods here take that position, because in the end, your post was probably just another pointless ramble trying to stir up the flames of animosity...
      Surprisingly, his original post was pretty sane and sensible. It was already rolling downhill when I spotted it, but the OP wasn't unreasonable at all.

      It was just one more of a seemingly endless round of beatings of the hole under the grease spot where the dead horse used to be.

      His comments in this thread, however, indicate someone who is assuming privileges he's done nothing to earn, and doing so in a nasty and obnoxious way. He may have calmed down and decided he'd rather have a ladder. We'll see when he next logs on.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        [DELETED]
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Lance,
          There is no great "guru" conspiracy regarding emailing the wrong link. Anybody with a lick of business sense would never send a bad link on purpose.
          [ahem] Can we please not have the discussion I deleted the original thread to prevent?


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Lance K
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Lance,[ahem] Can we please not have the discussion I deleted the original thread to prevent?


            Paul
            Well...since you asked so nicely.

            My bad. Carry on.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

    In case you haven't noticed, WF is the main hangout for "guru" product sellers. That isn't all who is here, but that segment of online biz has pitched their tent here. So don't be surprised if the mods remove anything that may be offensive/troubling/bothersome/whatever to this group. Pointing fingers at their methods is only going to stroke them the wrong way, thus the very negative responses. Post this on a forum where the guru product sellers do not hang out and nobody cares.
    I just noticed this one.

    Dude, I think you should be made aware that we're much less friendly toward people who haven't any names or real life identifiers connected with their accounts. You've got nothing to lose by getting banned, so we won't hesitate to do it.

    As far as the "facts" of your assertion: Most of the "gurus" won't touch this place. Largely because of people like you who make ridiculous claims and allegations without the slightest shred of concern for their truthfulness.

    That's all the rope you get. Noose or ladder?


    Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Originally Posted by marcolav View Post

    Or maybe the mod who deleted the post is one of the 'gurus' sending out those emails?
    I hear Walmart's having a sale on tinfoil.

    You should totally pick some up and make yourself a spiffy new hat.

    -Dan
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    Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      For those who might be wondering about the difference between 'Moderation' and 'Censorship', this might help...

      Moderation: A thread or post is judged to have little or no value and gets nuked, and you're happy to see it gone.

      Censorship: Your thread or post is judged to have little or no value and gets nuked, and you're ticked off that it's gone.
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  • Profile picture of the author davezan
    Originally Posted by marcolav View Post

    Why is it that some moderators think that they should CENSOR rather than MODERATE?
    Well...if someone said something you didn't like at your party and you had him
    kicked out just like that, isn't that arguably censorship too? While this forum is
    open for registration to whoever discovers this, it's also rather a "private party"
    run by private individuals with rules as they see fit for a reason.

    And Paul, thanks for the usual censoring...I mean moderating...I mean editing.
    Oh, whatever...
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    David

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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    Actually there are some of us here who would like to see threads moderated at the spanish inquisition level.

    Complete with burnings at the stake
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    • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      Actually there are some of us here who would like to see threads moderated at the spanish inquisition level.[

      Complete with burnings at the stake

      Oh? Witch threads are you talking about?






      .
      .
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      Becky

      p.s. I support the idea of giving people a nudge to start creating thread titles that tell you what the thread is actually about. There are lots of folks here who're happy to answer questions... but like everyone, they're busy folks. It wastes everyone's time to use cutesy thread titles that don't reflect the content inside.
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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    Threads like this usually end up helping no one. They seem to be an attempt to help teach someone on forum etiquette, but 9 out of 10 times the person needing the lesson either disappears or never gets it. I appreciate Paul's leniency with OPs like this, but since I been here, few of the ones the lesson is for ever learn from it. (though it is possible other new persons to the forum do, not everyone is vested in an untenable position).
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  • Profile picture of the author JackTriggs
    If you want to bash someone or discuss it..just pop over to scam.com or something similar and complain your heart out
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    Make $1000's Every Month By "Cool Dude Marketing"? You Gotta Check This
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    • Profile picture of the author Vogin
      You might be interested in the fact that constructive threads are far better than destructive ones.

      Unless you have direct proof (you still can't use a name), unless you're just asking for opinions of others without bashing, unless you are 110% sure that what you're creating can give value, don't do it.
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  • Profile picture of the author lazy boy
    Now I know why my last post was deleted
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  • Profile picture of the author psresearch
    Originally Posted by marcolav View Post

    I started a thread few hours ago about how the gurus have, since a couple of months, all started using the 'wrong link, sorry' excuse to send the same email over and again, and it has been deleted. No names were made, no insults, no attack, yet my post got removed, not a warning, not a notice, nothing, I just logged in and the post is no longer there.

    Why is it that some moderators think that they should CENSOR rather than MODERATE?? Or maybe the mod who deleted the post is one of the 'gurus' sending out those emails?

    This is really not a good way to handle a public forum!

    Marco
    I think if you would think about your *intention* behind the question, then perhaps you could have framed it better (or not posted it).

    Was your intention to ask something like:

    "Assuming this "wrong link" is really a technique, what would be the risks of using a technique like that?"

    Was your intention to ask something like:

    "Assuming this "wrong link" is really a technique, have any of you tried it and can you tell me what your experience with it has been?"

    or was your intention to rant?
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Paul,

    The deleted post was a rant. Not an outrageous one at all, but a rant.

    Can we please not get into the topic the thread was deleted over?


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author ElizabethAdams
      Well, Paul ... How would a few facts suit you?

      1) I have a folder in my inbox entitled "Possibly Maybe Look At Someday" ...

      2) Every time I join any list, I "whitelist" the sender to minimize delivery problems ...

      3) I also make a "rule" telling OutLook to route anything from that sender
      to my "Possibly Maybe Look At Someday" folder so that my inbox remains reserved
      for personal letters ...

      4) Every Sunday afternoon, when I pay my weekly visit to that folder,
      the first thing I do is sort everything in it by sender ...

      5) The second thing I do is scan the subject lines ...

      6) The third thing I do is click a few open here and there ...

      7) The fourth thing I do is delete all but the most recent message
      from each sender, if I don't have a good reason for saving them ...

      8) That's how come I'm able to relate to what Marco was saying ...
      I see so many examples of "wrong link" subject lines in my own inbox
      every Sunday afternoon that I'm embarrassed for the senders ...

      9) But until I happened to see Marco's post here, the idea that
      I might be looking at a marketing ploy simply hadn't occurred to me ...
      why would it? these are supposed to be accomplished marketers !!!
      how is it possible that so many of them would have so much trouble
      getting the right links in their emails !!!

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      • Profile picture of the author James Campbell
        Nice productivity plan.

        I have one too, but I seem to like yours better.

        Thanks for the outline.

        James
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by ElizabethAdams View Post

        Well, Paul ... How would a few facts suit you?

        1) I have a folder in my inbox entitled "Possibly Maybe Look At Someday" ...
        And you've been here since 2007 and you haven't yet seen this topic discussed? And you wish to continue to discuss a topic that a moderator has deleted? You sound capable enough to sort through your emails and decide what to keep, what to buy and what to delete without imposing yet another "ooops wrong link bad guru" post on a forum that does read often enough to know that it has been done to death.

        Email is pretty simple. You sign up for lists. If they annoy you, unsubcscribe.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
          Originally Posted by marcolav View Post


          This is really not a good way to handle a public forum!

          Marco
          Well, being a "solutions" person - might I recommend you go start your own forum. Then you can decide what is discussed.
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  • Profile picture of the author ElizabethAdams


    Yes, James ... it actually works very well ...

    From week to week, I get a sense of the "volume" of emails
    various marketers are sending out ...

    I also get an opportunity to develop a sense of the sort of subject lines
    and content that "speak" to me ...

    And, since I know from my direct-mail experience that at least
    20 out of every 100 recipients respond to the same things I do,
    I know that if *I* respond to certain subject lines and content,
    then a healthy percentage of my market is going to respond
    to it, too ...

    To be more specific, I (and my market) prefer an "inspirational" approach
    to a "motivational" one ... spirit moves us, in other words, whereas ego
    leaves us cold ...

    So the "manipulative" approaches of what might be called the "red"
    personality type (about 15% of the population) get rejected out of hand ...

    We're nobody's fool, in other other words ... and nobody's "low-hanging fruit," either !!!

    But we're as loyal as the day is long; and, if you treat us right, our value to you
    as lifetime customers is enormous ...

    And the beauty of the "Possibly Maybe Look At Someday" system I outlined above
    is that all of these elements play themselves out right in front of you ...

    BTW, if you feel you need to take a quick glance at your newsletter traffic
    on a daily basis, just switch it over to date-received mode and scan the day's
    messages for any that might be time-sensitive ...

    You can always click it back to "sender" mode when it's time for your weekly review ...

    warmest regards ...

    Elizabeth

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  • Profile picture of the author Nathan Hangen
    What a bizarre thread...everyone has their claws out today eh?
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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    Originally Posted by marcolav View Post

    I started a thread few hours ago about how the gurus have, since a couple of months, all started using the 'wrong link, sorry' excuse to send the same email over and again, and it has been deleted. No names were made, no insults, no attack, yet my post got removed, not a warning, not a notice, nothing, I just logged in and the post is no longer there.

    Why is it that some moderators think that they should CENSOR rather than MODERATE?? Or maybe the mod who deleted the post is one of the 'gurus' sending out those emails?

    This is really not a good way to handle a public forum!

    Marco
    Marco:

    Didn't want to come back to the forum in this manner, but oh well, somebody's gotta squash these internet rumors.

    I'd just like to know on what planet marketing tatics are recommended that do the following:

    1. Get your email inbox bombarded with complaints.

    2. Generate zero sales.

    In fact, I'll give $50 via paypal to the first person who can show me anyone who is advcating the kind of tatics you're alleging are being taught. You don't even have to go public and name anyone, my pm box works just fine.

    There, I said it. Now show me.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Elizabeth,
      Well, Paul ... How would a few facts suit you?
      They'd be fine, if we were actually discussing the issue of whether the questioned events are actually planned techniques or simple mistakes. But, as I've said several times in this thread, we're not going to let it devolve into that discussion again.

      Also, since that reads like a rebuttal, may I point out what I said in my first post in this thread: "the people who want to reason will agree that it's sometimes a trick and sometimes simple human error, with little way to know which is which in most cases."

      I think the relevant points regarding why this moderating choice was made, and the consequences of certain responses, have been covered. Unless there's something new to add to those, I'm going to lock this thread soon.


      Paul
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author SageSound
    If it was up to me, I'd delete 100% of all these "guru-bashing" posts, ads, everything. They're a reflection of a bigoted mentality. They don't reflect reality any more than saying people of some race, color, nationality, or religion are "all alike" in some respect.

    Besides, the term 'guru' basically means 'teacher'. Think along the lines of "personal coach" or "personal trainer". If they're not YOUR teacher, than what the heck are you complaining about?

    You think that since YOU agreed to get on THEIR JUNK MAIL LIST -- that makes them YOUR PERSONAL MARKETING TRAINER???

    Let's call a spade a spade: they're "marketers" not "gurus".

    The primary goal of a MARKETER is to get you to open and look at their materials. Then their next goal is to get you to click on their call to action.

    If you're tired of their junk mail and MARKETING TACTICS, get off of their list!

    This constant "guru-bashing" that goes on in America, where the term "guru" is hardly used, has turned the term into a perjorative. It's quickly becoming a slang term for something dishonorable and wrong. And it's not even being used appropriately.

    Delete them all, I say!
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  • Profile picture of the author billaaa777
    Well, if there is one thing that is always true about this forum and that is "Everybody plays follows the leader"

    Instead of anybody agreeing with him for asking a simple question, that should of been answered, everybody attacks him. It is just so sad!
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Originally Posted by billaaa777 View Post

      Well, if there is one thing that is always true about this forum and that is "Everybody plays follows the leader"
      There's plenty of disagreement even in this thread. Watch the discussions a little more closely, and you'll see it all over the forum. That's healthy. Has nothing to do with this thread, though, since the deletion wasn't over the position, but rather the frequency at which the discussion occurs.

      What's interesting is when people decide to claim that agreeing with a senior member means the person agreeing is somehow not being honest about it. Lazy spin, and not very clever. But people do fall for it.
      Instead of anybody agreeing with him for asking a simple question, that should of been answered, everybody attacks him. It is just so sad!
      His question was answered. Had he not chosen to frame it as an accusation, that would have been the end of the conversation.


      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    If people would quit wasting their time focusing on and complaining about what they don't like, and spent that previously wasted time on activities that promote and grow their business, they'd soon find they didn't have much to complain about.

    In other words, complaining is usually a step backward toward failure rather than forward toward success. Think of that the next time you want to complain, and instead take a step in the right direction. Use your energy to build your business rather than wasting it complaining about someone else's business.
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    Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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  • Profile picture of the author woodymcgrath
    I think moderators delete threads that add no value to the discussion. Most of the thread I see deleted are filled with negative posts. - accusations and sweeping statements.

    I'm sure if the replies are discussed without any negativity, it won't be deleted.
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  • Profile picture of the author seanicasia
    Yeah, I've seen how some threads turn really ugly, even though the initial post wasn't as ill-meaning as it was intended to be.

    And negative threads are really contagious and spread bad energy way too fast.

    What we need here is more encouragement and sharing of how to achieve sustained positive results in the right direction.

    Of course, having said that, it doesn't mean that if there's something/someone who did something really wrong (proof required where possible), they shouldn't be exposed at all.

    That's one way we all learn as well.
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    Well I think it's well known who runs the forums can make their own rules
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