The New "Ethical" Trend

Yeah - there is a lot of gray area there.

Different people will have very differing opinions of these 5 examples, I'm sure. And most of them certain that they're right and that anyone who disagrees "doesn't understand".

One of the 5 (the graphic about the "number of copies remaining") is actually criminal - in every country, as far as I know - and can actually be prosecuted, but rarely is. That one seems to me to be completely clear-cut, as fraud. It's illegal and it's stupid and it's actually counterproductive, and those are factual - not just opinion. The opinion is that it's also unethical (my opinion). And anyone who doesn't agree, just "doesn't understand", of course.

None of those things are unethical.

Most of them are immoral... but that's different.

The first one, about pricing, is neither.

I think it is good as a marketer to state your intentions, and hopefully as you read more it will become more clear who you are dealing with.

What Kay said.....

If you need to put other products/people down just to sell your own then you've got something wrong.

Some of what you see may be some of the less scrupulous people not realising that most of us have been ethical all along and they think they're joining the new trend so they think saying they're ethical and others aren't is a new marketing strategy.

They've just completely forgotten that if you need to say it - you probably have something wrong. It's like having a certificate to show you're not mad - if you need it then you have problems.

Something similar is when people start touting how their free stuff is really worth x times more than stuff other people charge for.

I've seen it in many other markets, not just this one.

It is usually done by small/insignificant players, I don't know why they do it as it is very weak as a marketing angle.

Nobody really pays much attention to them.

The word 'ethical' has certainly been watered down lately, mainly because people who have 'proven' themselves to be 'unethical' are using and abusing the word.

The English language is full of Hijacked words to justify a negative meaning. 'Gay' used to mean simply 'a happy chappy' when I was young. It has several meanings now, and the latest one used by the young is to describe anything that's 'just not right' :-(

Perhaps the unethical marketers are all simply 'Gay' - now that's a turnup for the books :-)

There are many "I've been scammed" threads where everyone is claiming that everybody in IM are scammers.

Now a thread where an ethical trend is a negative. lol.

I can't keep up with it all. I don't worry about what other people are doing. I run my business in a way that allows me to get some sleep at night. I "leave a lot of money on the table." I'm not out to squeeze every last penny out of a customer.

There are a lot of scammers in IM, no doubt. I see it all the time. I also see a lot of good people in IM. It's up to each person to choose which they want to be.

I don't mind being a small, insignificant player. I do what I want to do and I'm not looking to keep up with the Jones.

Personally I think that someone showing themselves as an "ethical marketer" comes about from how they act - not how they may talk about others as unethical (although there are cases where it can help other people), and certainly not when they label themselves as an ethical marketer. In fact, when I see people call themselves "ethical marketers" I almost think, why?! Just be a good example of the values you believe in and people will make up their own minds. If you've got the goods to back it up then you don't even need to give yourself that label.

Hell, Based on most 'definitions, every capitalist is a crook. Until some are willing to pay for all, that some are greedy pigs. There are certainally things I will not do, but it has to be a clear case before I 'condem' anyone elses actions. (Besides, I am no saint, That I attempt to do the best I can will have to suffice.)

With that said, there are conditions under which a person will overstep the bounds of their OWN tenet system... Stress in areas like fear of being able to take care of family, fear of loss and even fear of not having enough. How else does a Nazi Germany happen? A global resession? Teachers changing test scores instead of helping the kids they are supposed to teach so the school admin doesn't fire them? In most cases, people are not 'evil'. There is usually a very human reason they become willing to cross the line. It happens no more in IM that any other business model and in the sub group of members of this forum, probably less.

As I have said to my son as we discuss his H.S. 'Ethics' class:

Ethics and the law are often mutually exclusive.

Ethics is in the eye of the beholder. What is ethical to one might be evil to another, but still be legal.

The only thing you have to consider are your own ethics, no something someone tells you is 'ethical'

"Will you be able to sleep at night/live with yourself if you take action A over action B"
If the answer is not "yes", then, for YOU, it is unethical.

Q.E.D.

Not if said product is directly responsible for $2,000+ in savings or income.

Hmmm, I think ethics are very subjective and personal. It's a powerful word that can be used in good or bad ways.

But, no matter whether or not someone is using it to make more money, they will be perceived by others on the way they conduct their own personal business.

It's obvious that several IM marketers have made the OP very cynical about their use of the word, and have lost the chance to gain his trust, and his business.

The "ethical" posts by some of these marketers seem to be in direct response to some recordings that have recently surfaced.

In my opinion, when I see someone saying, "I'm ethical!" it only serves to gather praise from their followers while it screams guilt to those on the outside.

I can't recall anyone ever saying, "trust me!" and then instantly trusting them.

In fact, read a few books on the art of selling and you'll see that it's advised to never say things like, "trust me" or to tout your ethics because it immediately has the opposite effect in the prospect's mind- they start thinking. "hmmm...SHOULD I trust this guy?"

Actions speak louder than words.

Interesting that some of you point to others poor judgment to justify your own.

Its like saying its organic without being 100% organic

if it just says organic...well everything for the most part has some organic compound .

its like every scheme out there.

Who's to say the $47 product isn't horribly underpriced and at a point where the business selling it would go bankrupt, leaving their customers high and dry?

Sure it is!... If they didn't sell any units the whole time.

In addition to being a weak sales tool and other things pointed out, it is pretty hypocritical as many who write these posts about ethics would give their left n*t to be one of the big gurus. And there is no telling how anyone would act if they had the ability to push a button and sell 2000 units of a $2000 course... At least no telling until that person has been in those shoes.

CDarklock <--->Paul Myers

Debate of the century... watch as Myers tries to fight CD with actual facts! See CD deflect them with his unstoppable grasp to verbal logic. Feel the stinging blows of mathematical certainty amass upon Myer's body. Gasp as Myers breaks free from the weight of CD's arguements and rain blow after blow with accusasitions that CD is using tools out of the realm of the rules.

Two men locked in mortal battle. Titans of mental manipulation and armed to the nines with IQs experts cannot measure! Yes, Folks, you can only witness the carnage, the sweat, the blood and the tears in this arena. Oh, God... The humanity of it all!!

Ethics have NOTHING to do with what you sell or for how much. IF your sales copy ACCURATELY describes what you are selling, even if someone thinks (arbitrarily) it is worth $47 and you can sell it for $10,000, that is NOT unethical.

Unethical is:
-when people that sell to the same customer base engage in collusion about either pricing or timing of launches
or
-One INTENTIONALLY leaves out a part of the process being sold to make it harder or impossible to implement.

If one leaves out a part UNINTENTIONALLY, they are merely incompetent asses.

The ethics of a marketer and his/her products is best left to cients to promote and tout. This is why we use testimonials and case studies.

All I know is what my GUT usually tells me,

If some one announces that they are "Ethical" my gut says use caution.

If some one says, "Honestly", or "I'll tell you the truth", any other such statement that uses the word "TRUTH", my gut says, be very careful around this person.

Ethical people, people who tell the truth don't need to reinforce this fact about themselves by stating that they are Ethical or truthful, and to do so instantly implies that they are not.

I do not understand how some people here don't get this.

Hi Ken,

{slightly off-topic}

LOL@the absurd irony of the reality - two professions that produce some of the most unethical behavioral examples ever witnessed.

The first one is deliberately but unnecessarily complicated, which results in ridiculously high fees and ridiculously inefficient and drawn out scenarios (charged by the hour - day rate would have too many noughts).

The second, you get locked up, or otherwise persecuted and sometimes exterminated for offering something genuinely organic and helpful, but if you're a corporation that's in 'the club' and have the added 'benefit' of population reduction as a side effect of your invention, you're good to go.

Perhaps the presence of an ethics code for a profession is a warning sign - 'you are about to enter an ethical no-man's land.' It's about time that IM had one ;-)

Yes, I've recently preceived an increase in the number of marketers employing put-down strategies myself; clearly in an attempt to elevate themselves into a position of false credibility and respect - often contrary to the obvious fact that their own business/marketing practices are less than rosey.

I suppose when people have grown so used to being shafted in one way or another by marketers, the belief that they're all cold, money-grabbing, greasy-haired slimebags becomes so widespread as to the point of reaching a sort of critical mass. One that prompts marketers to rethink and often counter whatever approach they might've previously employed out of a fear the consumer has wisened up.

Unfortunately though, it is only their sales tactics that evolve, not their ethics. Consumers don't feel any less shafted by a product just because a marketer goes from promising "a million dollars in 15 hours, but hurry because there's only 2 copies left", to merely promising a more reasonable "£50/day within 1 month, even though I pulled this method out of my a** and don't know if it works (because I've never used it - but at least it sounds better)".

(Before anyone pulls me up about saying that: yes, I realise that a method's failure to work isn't always down to the fault of the method, but the lack of correct and consistent implementation by the customer).

Does that make these marketers dangerous?

It makes them sneaky in my mind; whether they're dangerous depends on one's ability to observe, research, make good judgements, and--if the worst comes to the worst--one's willingness to exercise their refund "rights" and express their views of said product.

Dodgy, short-sighted snake-oil salesmen will always exist and no matter what marketing strategies they employ, they will--sooner or later--be discovered for who they are. Their sales will eventually suffer with their credibility, and one hopes that someday their ills will take their toll on their inner-peace - even (and perhaps hopefully) if that peace comes as they're supping Martini from the back of their super-yatch).

One can hammer into the heads of one's customers' that their product is the best thing since sliced bread all they jolly well want; if the substance doesn't meet the hype or expectations, the people will (or should, hopefully) wisen up.

Does it pose a risk to the bottom-line of truly "ethical" marketers?

Perhaps, but I'm not so sure. People with pressing problems will always pay for solutions. If (for example) peoples tendency to carry on voting for the same old political parties is anything to go by, despite apparently being unsatisfied, let-down, critical or however "wise to their crap" they may profess to be, I'd say it's reasonably safe to assume that customers with pressing problems will simply identify the "lesser of all (perceived) evils" on which to spend their cash.

Perhaps, in the long run, it is a blessing in disguise for truly ethical and caring marketers who value and treat their customers with respect. With such traits being a rarity, truly satisfied customers will spread the word of their brilliance far and wide after a time, with nigh on no ongoing efforts by the marketer.

It happened with me when I ran my web hosting business. I walked the walked, and didn't just talk the talk in offering after-sales support to my customers above and beyond that of my competitors. I didn't need to artificially implant the notion of "aren't I brilliant" in their minds. I didn't need to market my business at all, really: more than 90%+ of my customers came from referrals, at a steady rate, with many customers professing that they'd have happily paid double, triple or more the amount I charged them each month, to receive the same level of service.

this may be the most intense thread i've seen here at warriorforum.
somewhere i heard college courses exist on the 'ethics' topic..
i want to comment on half the things said there..

instead- some things that came to mind.

remember the guy many years ago who got super rich (and famous)
in magazines and newspapers he ran an ad that went something like this:

Get Rich Quick and Easy!
for a full plan, mail only $1 and a SASE to..

in reply to each order, he sent a simple letter saying something like:
"post ads offering get rich quick schemes like this one"

I wonder if that's ethical.. And I wonder how many IM folks do similar feats. Years ago I remember getting all excited at the hype. Easy money. and I wasted a lot of time reading more hype and more hype. A big question has been in my head lately which may be relevant here- How much money is earned online selling info and tools that promote earning money online? I would like to know. Is this practice 'ethical'? Probably. But in a way that to me feels very strange.

Another note:
I learned somewhere that to build your online business you need to BUILD TRUST. I agree with you who've posted here that anyone who tells me to trust them instantly raises my suspicion. In fact, I seem to remember being literally robbed by people who have said those exact words. Online, I've learned that in order to trust someone, a person needs to see real value before they buy. Things like free ebooks, info rich sites, demos and trial versions. These build trust. Most of you know this.

I haven't noticed any online marketer spouting the 'ethical' pitch, but if I did I would likely leave fast. And anyone who's talking bad about their competitors ethics is simply in bad taste. Never talk negative about anyone, that's what my mom always told me.

The ethical trend I have noticed, is sites that give free promotion to charities, good causes, and the like. I dig it. Why not? It makes me like the web site a bit more, maybe stick around a bit longer. But unless they convince me they provide real value, I still won't buy.

I like the numbers about the big corps being sued for false advetising etc. There is room for corruption in any business. Thing about being online though, it's not like you're right next door, in a physical community. Small towns make people notorious if they're being evil. Online, it's a small matter of getting a new domain name and playing more hype songs.

Buyers be warned. due diligence. etc etc bla bla bla

oh yeah one more thing.. I do like the 'green hosting' movement. Servers powered by sun and wind turn me on. I will always give more credence to any marketer who spends the extra couple dollars to run their site on sun and wind power. These are the types of ethics that are effective marketing to me. Showing they care. Building trust through quality free info, trials, etc, and having active community strength/presence.

wow - this post got a bit long! forgive me if i rambled(:

Hmmm...

Well, I have been calling myself "The Ethical Marketer" here since the forum changed formats.

What it means to me can be summed up quite simply: I won't sell my soul to make a buck.

I don't use it as a gimmick. It's what I believe. It's how I operate.

The best part?

I'm not alone.

All the best,
Michael

Ethics are good.

The pricing example i would say is invalid. In college marketing course, we were taught about perceived value. The idea was simple if something selling at 10$ was not selling raise the price to 100$.

This problem is mox nix... you will always have to seperate the wheat from the chaff.