Internet Marketing Package Legal Concerns

by dowsp
30 replies
Hi,

I wonder if anyone could offer any legal advice to me over a Internet Marketing package
that I signed up for in the UK.

Last year I paid £5,000 for a internet Marketing offer from a UK Internet Marketer of whom
I had followed previously for about 3 or 4 years who I had seen become very successful
promoting an offer from another well known UK marketer that I had also known for several years..

I had also attempted to promote the same product but I was not able to succeed with it
due to various reasons....one being lack of finance and knowledge at the time and maybe ability and foresight abilities may have been lacking on my behalf.. BUT I had to admire this person who had made a great success with it..

He had succeeded with the product and moved on to other offers and his own projects.

I didnt fully give up and I persisted to study the subject and I still followed the guru as he went succeeded further..

The last 2 years he began offering special limited programes that he claimed that he could
offer a system that if clients subscribed to it, that he would help them make £5000 a month within 6 months. Or your money back plus a £1000 for wasting ones time.

As I had thought that I had some belief in this person... I decided to sign up after asking him if I could do this without spending anymore money on his system. His reply was NO
I would not need to spend any more money on it to succeed.

The system involved him supplying clients with a list of 500 leads which he claimed were very hot leads from a CPA network that he was involved with... and he offered me the chance to use his website / product / salesletter to promote to this list . he also had a list of other products that he advsied us on to sell clickbank offers that he referred us to.
He also included teaching client various other methods to promote his offers...

He also ran this event with another well known UK Guru..

There was 8 people who attended the event..

we were told that if we was not satisfied after the 1st hour... that we could request a refund..

after attnding a 2 day seminar....of which 7 other people also attended..
we were given a contract agreement form to sign...

and this was misleading... as on the form it said the event was NON refundable.

This was questioned... but the answers were not really made clear..
but we all chanced staying with it.

Due to a domestic problem I was not able to proceed with the system for a few weeks.

BUT I kept in contact with the other attendees...

3 or 4 of them started straight away and set up the system as he advised... and they
then set about promoting it to their 500 leads that each of them were supplied with.

After 2 months.... I was starting to set the system up...BUT I had not been given the 500 leads .. I had asked him 5 times for them.

At this time, I got to see how the others had gone on... and to my dismay... their results
were very poor... and it was looking like there was little chance that any of us were going to make £100 a month let alone £5K a month.

After 6 months.... none had succeeded with it as he had suggested.. and I still had not been given my leads... so I never got to test it.

Since... I have managed to contact him and tell him...

Initially I did want to request a refund as non of the others had succeeded..
so I had little faith in his system working like he described..

I had paid him £5K for faster results... NOT to go on to use slow free traffic methods..
Most of that I was already aware of anyway..

At the same time, I would have liked to have tested his system myself..

He has now told me that he will send me my 500 leads...

I was considering this... BUT ONLY if he will offer me the Full Refund IF I cannot get the system to work for me..

I am not saying that IF I fail to make £5K a month that I will want a refund if I was say making £1500 to 2K a month....as that would still be well worth me staying with it.


BUT I refuse to pay out any more money to make it work if the leads should fail.

He says that he will NOT offer me any refund or time extension should I not be able to succeed.


I have sent numerous emails to him requesting that either that he offers me a full refund IF I request it.... OR IF I do continue with it.. that he honors a refund later IF I cannot make it work as LONG as I can show him evidence that I followed his system.

One other client did ask him for a refund after the 6 months and he refused to do so.


I have asked trading standards for their advice, and they initially said that they didnt think that I could get a refund if id signed the agreement, BUT when I fully explained that he hadnt sent me the 500 leads, they later said they belived that he should refund me.
and they advised me to write to him and request it.


As much as I am considering doing this...

I really would like the opportunity to try applying his system... BUT only if he will be willing to honor me the initial refund promise should I spend all the time and effort applying it, and then it not work for me..


So I have tried to get some legal advice, about where I stand with it.. BUT they told me that for them to look into it, that it will cost me about £500...and they say I should go through the small claims court..


I just wonderd if anyone else has had any similar experiences or if they can offer any Further advice.

Thank you

Dowsp
#concerns #internet #legal #marketing #package
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      If you want legal advice, hire an attorney...

      In some jurisdictions, it is a crime to practice law unless you are sanctioned by the bar association...


      p.s. If he only offers a refund on your action, then he can say that you never did what you was told, and that is the reason it failed... It is hard to argue against that kind of logic...
      Signature
      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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      • Profile picture of the author dowsp
        Hi TPW,

        Thanks for your advice.

        I assume that you are suggesting that I try and get the refund, rather than risk
        trying it and potentially later being told that I had not applied things as he described / advised..

        I suspect that you are right if that is the case...having thought about it.

        The thing what is annoying is his business partner has said that he thinks he should honor me a refund... as long as I asked for it within the 6 months...

        I am not sure if it should matter if its after 6 months... as he didnt answer my requests for the leads which was within 6 months...so I could not test the system.

        IT seems a common thing with the main gurus who sell these packages that you have to
        sign up on the day of an seminar.... and may have anywhere from a few days or maybe 14 to 30 days to change ones mind if they later decide its not for them...

        I found another ones I signed up for that as I thought had offered phone support only later to find it only offered email support.. and I was disappointed with there email support.. as you were lucky if you got a reply to a simple query within 2 days..

        Thats far too slow..

        I wonder can one sell such guru assisted packages on... say to others who attend similar events... say upto 50% discount....or do they tend to have a clause that prevents one doing so...

        I wonder if theres any thread that discusses problems with gurus offers ? or selling them on at a discount...

        thank you

        Dowsp



        Originally Posted by Mr Money Maker View Post

        If a program makes money...........it will make money quickly from the start...otherwise I'd move on
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        If you want legal advice, hire an attorney...

        In some jurisdictions, it is a crime to practice law unless you are sanctioned by the bar association...


        p.s. If he only offers a refund on your action, then he can say that you never did what you was told, and that is the reason it failed... It is hard to argue against that kind of logic...
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    • Profile picture of the author dowsp
      Hi,

      Its hard to Just move on when one has paid out £5000 and has also been told that it may take a few months for things to work, based upon the theory that it may take sending a few emails to the list before prospects consider an offer..

      BUT on an average marketing campaign , I surpose that you always should see a % of prospects buy straight away, even if 60 to 70% need to see an offer 2 to 5 times..

      Or thats what I have been led to believe..

      BUT I agree that if one doesn't see a reasonable return early on that it is concerning..

      The other question is Are you saying that you dont think its worth me persuing a refund if his system has not produced the expected results ?

      If one is seeking opportunities by testing them, they may try several before they find success.. I surpose its a bit of a lottery unless on very knowledgeable or clever to determine
      what may work..



      Originally Posted by Mr Money Maker View Post

      If a program makes money...........it will make money quickly from the start...otherwise I'd move on
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    You've been had and if you want to sue you will have to contact an attorney or the equivalent of an attorney general or the equivalent of the FTC in your country, if there is an equivalent or small claims court. Other than that, there's nothing you can do.

    You signed a contract that you shouldn't have signed and bought into a program. When they said you can get a refund but the contract said no refund, that should have been a red flag. It was a warning that you chose to ignore.
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    • Profile picture of the author dowsp
      Hi Suzanne,

      Thank you for your comments...and what is probably a reality check.

      I did contact a solicitor ( UK for Lawyer / attorney) and he did advise me to take it to a small claims court.... as just for him to look into the case would cost me £350 to £500.
      Although he did say some solicitors may do a cheaper deal.

      I have to say I am losing faith in the IM business... and much of the misleading promises.


      I personnally cannot understand how someone can say one thing on a sales letter to draw clients in and waste their time taking 2 days of work and paying for travel and hotels etc only to mislead them... especially when one is led to believe that they may be honest or genuiene...

      That will be the last IM opportunity I will get involved in.

      I just also had another disappointment from another guru who made misleading claims about his service....


      I am NOT sure whether I have the rights on various forums to expose who this person is.
      As much as Id like to... I will resist for now until I get leagl advice or I may end up being sued..

      Best Regards

      Dowsp
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        You cannot expose anyone on this forum... It is in the rules...

        It is not in the rules to protect the wrong-doer, but to prevent the forum owner from getting caught in legal disputes between parties...

        Honestly, I wasn't suggesting that you should seek a refund, but trying to show how hard it would be to actually get a refund...

        But just because you have been hosed by gurus before should not stop you from reaching for your dreams... You do still possess the dreams don't you?

        You can learn a lot from a place like the Warrior Forum, but more so, you can typically get a lot more information from people like us for a lot less money than you would ever be asked to pay a guru...
        Signature
        Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author dowsp
    I would like to think that I still do possess dreams,

    BUT after having now spent some years persueing trying to obtain them...I am still having problems...Most maybe down to my own limitations, for one the older I get the less clever I believe that I am.... , but with regards to the internet marketing business...this is due to a combination of factors which I suspect a fair percentage of
    people go through..some psycholgical... some due to the business and how fast it changes... some to do with frustration ( Guru concerns is one eg) Others are burn out...
    lacking of drive after numerous disappointments.. Questioning should I sell products that I am not really knowledgeable about... How do I know if what I am selling is geniene or not if for eg looking to sell click bank items... or Why should I consider selling a gurus system if that guru is not being fair with me.. why should I sell his stuff onto others if those prospects later buy into a similar offer that let me down...if that guru is dishonest.

    All I am doing is passing the problem on to someone else..

    IF I create my own product or service, will it be good enough.. would I feel satisfied if I gave information that may not be worthwhile...


    I question my abilities to others, and I surpose there is numerous levels of quality.
    I know I can never be to the standard of the top people in my niches.

    SO after spending a lot of time effort and money having researched quite a lot of ideas , business opportunities etc and questioning my own abilities and limitations...

    I am now questioning DO I really want to carry on.

    Another factor that comes into it.. Some gurus have different ways of doing things ..
    and one in particular on a video/ webinar I have watched .. has made me question many things.... the fact that the goal posts are always moving and competition and changes
    occur so fast in this business that its NOW hard work to keep up and I feel its too hard now and I see it as being too much hard work to achieve the success we are all led to believe is easy....

    He shows ways that he claims are smart and require much less time and work.
    BUT I have now realised that he is very smart and has a very fast mind when I listen how quick the guru talks.. its just that he makes it seem easy..

    In my opinion, its only easy for some.. those who are clever or have the right personality. some have much better foresight than others...

    And these are the things that I have been questioning.

    I have a fair knowledge and a lot of ideas, but probaly too much overload..

    and after all this time and effort / study I am finding it difficult to decide which way I go or if I should even bother continueing with it as I suspect I am in a continuous cycle..

    And this is a BIG problem...


    Many of the opportunities I had looked at are no longer things that work in todays market.. so I dont really think that I am cut out for this business.

    I wanted a fast route to success after all my frustrations, but in the end all this has dne is lose me even more money and time... just wasting my life away..

    So I dont think that I can trust anyone anymore...there ALWAYS seem to end up being
    something that just doesnt work out..

    Even the smart guru I mentioned has justturned out a let down on another package that I signed u for after it seemed so promising... it turned out a utter waste of time and money... and just a salesletter and video that painted a easy business venture.

    -----------------
    But just because you have been hosed by gurus before should not stop you from reaching for your dreams... You do still possess the dreams don't you?
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeff Henshaw
      dowsp, you don't display either a name or a location, but from reading your posts, you seem to be resident in the UK.

      Regarding any issues of redress, then I suggest that:-

      - If you want free advice, then contact your local trading standards office (consumer protection office), or try a local Citizens Advice bureaux.

      - There are some links below, which might be of assistance:

      Consumer Direct

      Trading Standards Institute - Home page

      Get advice

      That's all that I can suggest as regards the 'legal element'.

      I hope that this helps.

      Regards,
      Jeff.
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      • Profile picture of the author dowsp
        Hi Jeff,

        Yes I am from the UK.. North West...

        Thanks for your advice and confirming the route that I should take.

        I do think that this is my only option now..in terms of dealing with the Guru who I paid ...£5K too.

        The last time I went to the CAB... There was a big Que...and many got turned away.. It seems impossible to get through to them on the telephone.

        I may try writing or posting a letter to them.. and see if they will call me when they are
        able to...if I find that I cannot to see them after a couple of attempted visits.

        Also If I dont get any joy , I will probably contact trading standards again.

        I still have not got around to visiting the South wales Coast between Cardiff and Pembrokeshire.... Hope to do so one day as it looks a fasenating coastline.

        Cheers Dowsp
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        • Profile picture of the author akiratom
          In internet marketing, copyright legal issues are such a regard mainly because of the nature of the environment online, where much of the content provided is for free.
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          • Profile picture of the author dowsp
            Hi,

            Yes, I can imagine that Copyright is a big issue between Internet Marketers or anyone who
            is in the information business..and Legal experts ( Lawyers, Solicitors, attorneys)

            Maybe More so in the USA than in the U.K

            More so than dealing with problems with Guru packages like I am looking into.

            I am sure that it is a VERY tricky area of the Law to deal to deal with.

            I wonder if there is a thread on this forum that discusses it..

            Or is it an Issue many on here would prefer to avoid...due to its nature.

            What I would like to know is IF someone reads material either from a book or course and say then decides that they want to create their own products based upon that information.

            IF they rewrite it or create it in a different way..( maybe in Video or Audio formatt)
            Would they be breaking Copywrite..

            The thing is so many Gurus Often offer such similar information... I imagine its a case one guru learns from another and then creates his or her own version of that same information.

            IF this is the Case... I am Not sure how any initial Guru who MAY have created something unique.. could prove that another Guru has broken copyright...


            I should imagine Information is often the same from some initial source..maybe some old book....only wrote or altered in a different manner.

            I had an interest in some stock market material that I obtained from a course that I went on and was told that this was copywrite.... BUT I later found out that company had obtained it from a book wrote from a well known trader from many years ago in the 1930s.

            and NO doubt that trader had obtained that / his information from other older traders back before his day... only it may had been slightly altered.

            This company offer this information along with a software package and seminar..


            I myself would like to consider creating my own product based upon some of this material..
            and I believe that I could do this and make it unique with some of my own additional material from my own discoverys when using it...

            Could I be seen to be breaking any copywrite law if I decided to do this and say created it in another formatt be it video or audio.. or if I rewrote it or aded some other material with it ?








            Originally Posted by akiratom View Post

            In internet marketing, copyright legal issues are such a regard mainly because of the nature of the environment online, where much of the content provided is for free.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tracey_Meagher
    I have just finished reading your post and you have my sympathy. You've been badly stung. I can see why you would question going on and I know exactly what you mean about the integrity in Internet Marketing, both in products you are buying into and products you might create yourself.

    I have asked myself the same questions many times. I just don't feel comfortable putting a product out that I feel is contrived or wish wash. Thankfully I've never had $5000 that I could pay out but I know the state of mind that could make this happen. These people are so convincing because they are living our dream.

    I only began to see progress when I realised I didn't have to be a guru to succeed. I stopped trying to 'be' what they are (I don't have the personality or confidence for it). BUT in the process of trying to become them, I had enhanced some of my skills. I started to focus on what I CAN Do and that's graphic and web design.

    I'm in on every angle I can be with that, from creating my own high value websites and flipping them to providing services and WSO's here on WF and around the web. Thing is, I have finally succeeded online, without loosing my integrity. I do quality work that I am proud of. I already make a good living and have plans for more income streams.

    I really hope you can carry on with your dream. You've had a confidence knock and the trauma of loosing 5 grand but you are also older and wiser (not dumber and you think ).

    Creat a plan as I have done and keep it simple (and guru free) Take the time to learn a skill, offer your services in that skill, build a reputation for being good at it, create a product based on it, create a membership site offering other products based on it and alway be transparent, reliable and honest. Then you will thrive.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bronwyn and Keith
      Hey Dowsp

      We agree totally with Tracey.

      The thing is to "move on" before you end up paying a Lawyer another $20K (sorry don't know where the pound symbol is).

      Most Lawyers won't be much use to you and you will probably find that the "offender" hasn't got a bean in his/her name anyway.

      How do we know???

      We had a business partner rip us off for $125K and it was "his word" versus "our word". Nobody wins those fights and your life gets put on hold while you wait for an outcome.

      Unfortunately you need to "CHALK" it up to experience.

      regards

      Bronwyn and Keith
      Originally Posted by Tracey_Meagher View Post

      I have just finished reading your post and you have my sympathy. You've been badly stung. I can see why you would question going on and I know exactly what you mean about the integrity in Internet Marketing, both in products you are buying into and products you might create yourself.

      I have asked myself the same questions many times. I just don't feel comfortable putting a product out that I feel is contrived or wish wash. Thankfully I've never had $5000 that I could pay out but I know the state of mind that could make this happen. These people are so convincing because they are living our dream.

      I only began to see progress when I realised I didn't have to be a guru to succeed. I stopped trying to 'be' what they are (I don't have the personality or confidence for it). BUT in the process of trying to become them, I had enhanced some of my skills. I started to focus on what I CAN Do and that's graphic and web design.

      I'm in on every angle I can be with that, from creating my own high value websites and flipping them to providing services and WSO's here on WF and around the web. Thing is, I have finally succeeded online, without loosing my integrity. I do quality work that I am proud of. I already make a good living and have plans for more income streams.

      I really hope you can carry on with your dream. You've had a confidence knock and the trauma of loosing 5 grand but you are also older and wiser (not dumber and you think ).

      Creat a plan as I have done and keep it simple (and guru free) Take the time to learn a skill, offer your services in that skill, build a reputation for being good at it, create a product based on it, create a membership site offering other products based on it and alway be transparent, reliable and honest. Then you will thrive.
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      • Profile picture of the author dowsp
        Hi Bronwyn and Keith ,

        Yes Tracy had some good suggestions,
        that I will consider..

        As for paying any more to a Lawyer, I am willing to pay for some initial advice upto say £200... which I would also hope would include sending a letter to the Guru offender to put my case across to ask for a refund for me, or that I will be taking him to a small claims court. I dont want to risk too much , but I think a letter from a Lawyer MAY make him reconsider..

        I do believe that he is VERY wealthy.. I have watched this gurus progress over 5 years... so I Know that he is highly likely to be successful... Thats why I risked paying him £5000 in the 1st place... He wasnt someone that I had only recently came across.

        BUT I am disappointed how he treats his prospect customers.

        I am sorry to read about your unfortionate experience with a corrupt business partner.

        It just shows that we can all be stung no matter how much we think that we trust someone...I suspect that you were more confident dealing with him than I was with my Guru.

        I only hope that you managed to get over it and have prospered since.

        Sometimes unfortunately even when we think that we have learned from experience we can make the same mistakes again... BUT Hopefully next time we can try and at least lower any potential risk.. IF there ever is a next time, I wont sign up to anything unless I can TRY and be more certain that some how I can secure my investment and be as certain as possible how any guarantees work..

        I feel that its worth my time investigationg the LAW on how these Gurus operate and then maybe at least I can warn others of my experience and how to deal with it and what these guarantees really stand for, so others can be wary of them...


        Best regards Dowsp


        ----------------------------
        We agree totally with Tracey.

        The thing is to "move on" before you end up paying a Lawyer another $20K (sorry don't know where the pound symbol is).

        Most Lawyers won't be much use to you and you will probably find that the "offender" hasn't got a bean in his/her name anyway.

        How do we know???

        We had a business partner rip us off for $125K and it was "his word" versus "our word". Nobody wins those fights and your life gets put on hold while you wait for an outcome.

        Unfortunately you need to "CHALK" it up to experience.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tracey_Meagher
          Originally Posted by dowsp View Post

          BUT I am disappointed how he treats his prospect customers.
          If this guy offers a course by the month over a year and take 3 months to get to the beef, I think I may know who you are talking about. I subscribed to this kind of service for a couple of months until I started to get invitations for private phone consultations and very expensive live events. I saw through it (but not quickly enough) and rang to cancel.

          Re, the membership site. Sure there is a learning curve with getting one set up but it can be done completely free using Wordpress & S2member. Myself and my husband are working on a product on how to do this right now. Thing is, you could teach yourself how to do it if you are patient and persistent. Google is your best friend in these difficult times and has all the help you need. It can be part of 'teach yourself a skill phase'. Imagine how great you would feel when after a 2 weeks, a month, 6 weeks, whatever it takes, you'd HAD a membership site ready. You would have accomplished that by yourself and for yourself, without a guru in sight.

          Next step, get your content together and conquer your lack of faith in it by making it GREAT. Outsource it if you have to. Then all you have to do is get your customers. Visit forums relevant to your niche, start to think about SEO and building backlinks, writing articles. Outsource this too if you need to.

          I'm sure you could do it if you make a simple plan and follow through on it. At the end of the day, it is just you and your computer when it comes to making money online, no matter what the guru's say.
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          • Profile picture of the author dowsp
            Hi Tracy,

            I had two ideas for M/Ship sites... one on I.M.. which I do have products and material for.
            and the other on analysing the Stock market which has been an interest of mine.

            I think that I am a fair analysts but not a good trader... theres a huge difference...
            My problem is when I get my analysis right I think I should be offering such a service via a paid membership site.. when I make a bad analysis... then this makes me negative.

            I do feel that you really do need to be above average to offer such a service.. and my problem is trying to determine do I think that I am good enough. ( I do think that I am better than many of the services out there...but I still have my doubts.
            But it would be a good niche for such a service.

            I do offer a Free yahoo group at the moment and have done so for 4 years.
            BUT I have not been promoting it for 2 to 3 years and I suspect I may be able to
            use a yahoo group as a m/ship site, BUT It is knowing how to set it up is my problem.

            Sometimes its the small issues that prevent us doing things, if one cannot figure it out.

            I also seem to recall that my cpanel has an option for a mship site on my host account.
            or as you say, wordpress can be used... I also recall joomla and another one that I cannot recall that I think was free, BUT I am not sure these were very secure.


            -------------------------------------------

            [QUOTE=Tracey_Meagher;2819858]If this guy offers a course by the month over a year and take 3 months to get to the beef, I think I may know who you are talking about.

            Next step, get your content together and conquer your lack of faith in it by making it GREAT. Outsource it if you have to. Then all you have to do is get your customers. Visit forums relevant to your niche, start to think about SEO and building backlinks, writing articles. Outsource this too if you need to.

            I'm sure you could do it if you make a simple plan and follow through on it. At the end of the day, it is just you and your computer when it comes to making money online, no matter what the guru's say.
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    • Profile picture of the author dowsp
      Hi Tracy,

      Thank you for your comments...

      Your post is a nice example of someone who has managed to make some success after having been through what I would think of is a type of apprenticeship that we all have to go through... but some ( Like me have made it a LOT longer than is the Norm !)

      It is good to see people that you have made a success... and I wish you the best of Luck for the future.

      You offer some glimmers of hope to a down and out internet marketer...who is trying to heal his wounds :-)

      My problem now however is still uncertainty ...which way to go for the best based upon my own abilities, knowledge and personality.

      You mention that I should create a plan , learn a skill and offer a service etc..

      and suggest that I create a membership site.

      That has been something that I have considered with a niche that I have been involved in for some time, BUT when I looked into creating a membership site, it seems quite difficult to do if it is to be done correct with the main features that a site would have.
      such as including subscribers with a unique username and password, and making it secure as well as taking payments.. Then adding monthly content if one didnt have too many ideas what to add each month.. ( as It happens in my niche I would be able to offer weekly or maybe even daily information)

      I did once sign up to a guru who offered to show me how to do this sometime ago... but
      at the time I wasnt sure on my ideas if I believed in my offerings and I backed out..
      I did see some of what was involved in setting one up and it did seem quite difficult,
      if it was to be done correctly. I did see some easier methods, but they may not of been a good longer term solution IF it did work..

      Other issues would had been finance and trying to advertise the service... and that would still be a concern if I was to try that today after loosing £5K..

      It has been something that I keep considering but never seem to be able to get myself in a position to fully committ.. But maybe this is my own failings...


      Thanks again for your suggestions.

      I will try and reply later to other posts made by members from my previous post.

      Cheers..Dowsp

      -------------------------------
      Creat a plan as I have done and keep it simple (and guru free) Take the time to learn a skill, offer your services in that skill, build a reputation for being good at it, create a product based on it, create a membership site offering other products based on it and alway be transparent, reliable and honest. Then you will thrive.
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  • Profile picture of the author TK1
    From my own short internet experience I can tell you people will tell you ANYTHING just to make sure you buy their stuff and after you buy they don't care.

    This has happened to me to (luckily for smaller amounts of money) and I guess this has happened to millions of people all over the world, it's sad to see people don't care really as they pretend to care.

    I hope you get out of this crap and move on, this time hopefully with more success.

    TK

    Originally Posted by dowsp View Post

    Hi,

    I wonder if anyone could offer any legal advice to me over a Internet Marketing package
    that I signed up for in the UK.

    Last year I paid £5,000 for a internet Marketing offer from a UK Internet Marketer of whom
    I had followed previously for about 3 or 4 years who I had seen become very successful
    promoting an offer from another well known UK marketer that I had also known for several years..

    I had also attempted to promote the same product but I was not able to succeed with it
    due to various reasons....one being lack of finance and knowledge at the time and maybe ability and foresight abilities may have been lacking on my behalf.. BUT I had to admire this person who had made a great success with it..

    He had succeeded with the product and moved on to other offers and his own projects.

    I didnt fully give up and I persisted to study the subject and I still followed the guru as he went succeeded further..

    The last 2 years he began offering special limited programes that he claimed that he could
    offer a system that if clients subscribed to it, that he would help them make £5000 a month within 6 months. Or your money back plus a £1000 for wasting ones time.

    As I had thought that I had some belief in this person... I decided to sign up after asking him if I could do this without spending anymore money on his system. His reply was NO
    I would not need to spend any more money on it to succeed.

    The system involved him supplying clients with a list of 500 leads which he claimed were very hot leads from a CPA network that he was involved with... and he offered me the chance to use his website / product / salesletter to promote to this list . he also had a list of other products that he advsied us on to sell clickbank offers that he referred us to.
    He also included teaching client various other methods to promote his offers...

    He also ran this event with another well known UK Guru..

    There was 8 people who attended the event..

    we were told that if we was not satisfied after the 1st hour... that we could request a refund..

    after attnding a 2 day seminar....of which 7 other people also attended..
    we were given a contract agreement form to sign...

    and this was misleading... as on the form it said the event was NON refundable.

    This was questioned... but the answers were not really made clear..
    but we all chanced staying with it.

    Due to a domestic problem I was not able to proceed with the system for a few weeks.

    BUT I kept in contact with the other attendees...

    3 or 4 of them started straight away and set up the system as he advised... and they
    then set about promoting it to their 500 leads that each of them were supplied with.

    After 2 months.... I was starting to set the system up...BUT I had not been given the 500 leads .. I had asked him 5 times for them.

    At this time, I got to see how the others had gone on... and to my dismay... their results
    were very poor... and it was looking like there was little chance that any of us were going to make £100 a month let alone £5K a month.

    After 6 months.... none had succeeded with it as he had suggested.. and I still had not been given my leads... so I never got to test it.

    Since... I have managed to contact him and tell him...

    Initially I did want to request a refund as non of the others had succeeded..
    so I had little faith in his system working like he described..

    I had paid him £5K for faster results... NOT to go on to use slow free traffic methods..
    Most of that I was already aware of anyway..

    At the same time, I would have liked to have tested his system myself..

    He has now told me that he will send me my 500 leads...

    I was considering this... BUT ONLY if he will offer me the Full Refund IF I cannot get the system to work for me..

    I am not saying that IF I fail to make £5K a month that I will want a refund if I was say making £1500 to 2K a month....as that would still be well worth me staying with it.


    BUT I refuse to pay out any more money to make it work if the leads should fail.

    He says that he will NOT offer me any refund or time extension should I not be able to succeed.


    I have sent numerous emails to him requesting that either that he offers me a full refund IF I request it.... OR IF I do continue with it.. that he honors a refund later IF I cannot make it work as LONG as I can show him evidence that I followed his system.

    One other client did ask him for a refund after the 6 months and he refused to do so.


    I have asked trading standards for their advice, and they initially said that they didnt think that I could get a refund if id signed the agreement, BUT when I fully explained that he hadnt sent me the 500 leads, they later said they belived that he should refund me.
    and they advised me to write to him and request it.


    As much as I am considering doing this...

    I really would like the opportunity to try applying his system... BUT only if he will be willing to honor me the initial refund promise should I spend all the time and effort applying it, and then it not work for me..


    So I have tried to get some legal advice, about where I stand with it.. BUT they told me that for them to look into it, that it will cost me about £500...and they say I should go through the small claims court..


    I just wonderd if anyone else has had any similar experiences or if they can offer any Further advice.

    Thank you

    Dowsp
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    • Profile picture of the author dowsp
      Hi Tk,

      Thanks for your comments,

      I have to agree that now this business is so competitive, it seems that for smaller priced products that often one gets left with a product that they buy and little or no further help or advice from the vendor..

      As you say they promise so much but often fail to deliver...
      It does seem a business where often one has to get bitten many times and learn what
      one can from what information that one purchases and try and learn parts of that information until you can put it all together..

      IF one has little money, it does seem hard if one has to spend a lot of time trying to research different things in terms of ones time..

      Sometimes you may find a guru who is helpful and will try and help to some degree,
      but many just want you to buy their next package if they are willing to consider offering their time in answering queries.

      I think once a guru gets mega successful, they just dont have time to answer or its just not worth their time doing so. some do have staff who can advise, but I have at times been disappointed with them after having been initially persuaded by the actual guru in the 1st place... whom I thought would be the one who would be able to advise me..

      then found out I was dealing with a staff member whom I may not have the same repore or connection with.


      -------------
      From my own short internet experience I can tell you people will tell you ANYTHING just to make sure you buy their stuff and after you buy they don't care.

      This has happened to me to (luckily for smaller amounts of money) and I guess this has happened to millions of people all over the world, it's sad to see people don't care really as they pretend to care.

      I hope you get out of this crap and move on, this time hopefully with more success.

      TK
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  • Profile picture of the author Myles Sinclair
    Originally Posted by dowsp View Post


    ".......The last 2 years he began offering special limited programes that he claimed that he could offer a system that if clients subscribed to it, that he would help them make £5000 a month within 6 months. Or your money back plus a £1000 for wasting ones time....."
    That should have been a big red flag. No sound business will offer refunds plus money on top. Remember the old saying, "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is".

    You might as well have a crack at going down the small claims route. It won't cost you that much if you do it yourself.

    Good luck with this and your future ventures.

    Myles
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    • Profile picture of the author dowsp
      You may be correct in saying that no sound business would offer a refund plus money on top. UNLESS IN my own belief ,if a opportunity was really as good as they made out.

      I have been searching for such a business for some time and not seen that many offer such a thing...BUT I would have thought that such a thing May exist...

      This was what I did believe after I had followed this gurus progress over 3 or 4 years.
      BUT so far I am disappointed that he has NOT offered to match what his promises were.

      Its hard to say also because this business changes so fast... What MAY have worked 12 months ago, may not work a year later... and this may be why he wont offer such a guarantee now..

      -----------------------------------
      [QUOTE=Myles Sinclair;2811389]That should have been a big red flag. No sound business will offer refunds plus money on top. Remember the old saying, "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is".
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  • Profile picture of the author NerdGary
    Craziness!

    Trust can be a dangerous word. If you did not trust this fellow from the start none of this would have happened.

    Anyway.. My suggestion is to call your Credit card company and ask them to refund your money because the merchant did not deliver.

    Its the easiest thing to do here.

    I guess you've learned the really hard way that there are no shortcuts.

    And to be honest, 500 leads = $5k income?

    Figure conversion rates are 5%... so 25 sales can lead to 5k? While very very possible, it just sounds fishy..

    Get you money back and move on.
    Signature



    <><>-----------------------------------------<><>
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    • Profile picture of the author dowsp
      Hi Gary,

      The leads were surposed to be VERY HOT CPA leads..and initially we were led to believe that we would get about a 2% return.... BUT we were also told it would take 2 to 5 times for those leads to see the offer before they considered it. ( email marketing system that promoted the offer several times in between other offers in the system)

      it was more like a 0.2/0.5% return as some sales were made but very few from the 4 other attendees who tried it..


      the idea was to promote his membership site, but instead of getting paid in cash, we got paid in extra leads...UNTIL our list has grown more that it was making sales on other products that he had in his sytem that we would make money on, plus any of our own products.

      I am not sure if a credit card company would refund after 12 months, but unfortunately for me, I had paid cash..bank transfer..

      As I say in my other posts , initially I just wanted him to honour his guarantee until I test the system for myself once he gives me the leads, BUT I WONT try this UNLESS he does agree to honour his guarantee and give me a time extension after he failed to send me the leads within the 6 month period..

      -----------------------------------------

      Originally Posted by NerdGary View Post

      Craziness!

      Trust can be a dangerous word. If you did not trust this fellow from the start none of this would have happened.

      Anyway.. My suggestion is to call your Credit card company and ask them to refund your money because the merchant did not deliver.

      Its the easiest thing to do here.

      I guess you've learned the really hard way that there are no shortcuts.

      And to be honest, 500 leads = $5k income?

      Figure conversion rates are 5%... so 25 sales can lead to 5k? While very very possible, it just sounds fishy..

      Get you money back and move on.
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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    I see excuses being made, inaction, not following through, and complaints about not having money (but having money to buy these IM programs).

    Instead of another long complaining post, and trying to get free legal advice, either go hire a local attorney to review the contract, situation, and to provide advice and/or a letter - or move on.

    For the amount of time spent on this thread you could have written numerous letters to the guru outlining your concerns about fraud and either demanding leads or your money back, or put the issues into a small claims complaint.
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    • Profile picture of the author dowsp
      I have spent many weeks in email exchange with the Guru.. and got no where after it all.

      I have contacted trading standards and they advised me to write to him to demand my money back as he had not supplied me with the leads within the 6 month period.

      Initially I am NOT sure that I just wanted a refund... I wanted him to offer to honour me with the Refund IF I found that I couldnt get the system to work.. which he wont as he says I didnt ask him about this within the 6 months and also that I couldnt show him what I had done to apply his system..

      As he had NOT supplied me with the leads, I was not able to apply it after I had asked him for them 5 or 6 times within the 6 month period..

      I told him what trading standards told me... and he has told me even if I write to ask him for a refund that he WILL NOT honour it.

      I have contacted a Lawyer ( UK Solicitor) and he suggested that I do not use one... but rather go to a small claims court..


      BUT IF I do this... and I do get the refund.. I will miss out on having at least been able to try his system...which I would had liked to have done...to fully satisfy me if I believed it would work or not... BUT as Id seen 4 other attendeess ALL fail to make it work, I must admitt to not be very optimistic about it..

      That is why I decided to post on here to see if I could get any other advice BEFORE I make my final decisions..

      Maybe I could ask a lawyer if they can advise me where I would stand with this.. BUT I suspect for them to look into this in relative detail, that it will be expensive...

      Hence why I am trying to see IF I can get any other advice first..

      As for No money... I had the money to sign up 12 months ago.. I DONT want to spend another 2 to 5K persueing this with lawyers..

      ALSO when I signed up... I specifically asked him would i need to spend any more money on his system to make it work... HE SAID NO !.... thats why I trusted his word.

      I had followed him for 3 to 4 years before start with a project that I also signed up for and make a great success with it.. where as I did not due to many numerous reasons...
      lack of Money, Lack of knowledge ability etc etc



      Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

      I see excuses being made, inaction, not following through, and complaints about not having money (but having money to buy these IM programs).

      Instead of another long complaining post, and trying to get free legal advice, either go hire a local attorney to review the contract, situation, and to provide advice and/or a letter - or move on.

      For the amount of time spent on this thread you could have written numerous letters to the guru outlining your concerns about fraud and either demanding leads or your money back, or put the issues into a small claims complaint.
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    • Profile picture of the author dowsp
      I note that you are an attorney,and have a book on Internet Marketing Law.

      I am not sure that the book would be able to resolve the issue, but

      out of curiousity, do you also offer a service direct to internet marketing issues similar to mine... if SO Id be curious what your charges would be.

      IF you prefer I PM you... I will, at the moment my inbox is full... so if you wish to converse by PM can you let me know on this thread first.


      -------------------------------------------------
      Instead of another long complaining post, and trying to get free legal advice, either go hire a local attorney to review the contract, situation, and to provide advice and/or a letter - or move on.



      [QUOTE=kindsvater;2820451]I see excuses being made, inaction, not following through, and complaints about not having money (but having money to buy these IM programs).
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    • Profile picture of the author dowsp
      Any further comments to add Kindvater to my replies where I have tried to explain to your last message.


      Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

      I see excuses being made, inaction, not following through, and complaints about not having money (but having money to buy these IM programs).

      Instead of another long complaining post, and trying to get free legal advice, either go hire a local attorney to review the contract, situation, and to provide advice and/or a letter - or move on.

      For the amount of time spent on this thread you could have written numerous letters to the guru outlining your concerns about fraud and either demanding leads or your money back, or put the issues into a small claims complaint.
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  • Profile picture of the author dowsp
    I just want to also point out.... He HAS NOW offered to send me the leads...

    BUT what he wont offer is the guarantee for me to trail the system with them once he has supplied them.. and this is MY problem.

    I have seen 4 other attendees try his system and follow it as he described and all fail to succeed.. ONE asked for a refund after he had followed his advice / system and hes refused to honour it.

    When I signed up for this.. I did so as I was led to believe that this was a short cut to success.. based upon his promises in his sales material and the guarantee..

    what I dont want to do is set up the system doing all the work which does take some time and effort to set it all up.... and see NO results.. I am not prepared to do this WITHOUT him offering the guarantee... this is where I want legal advice..

    I dont mind trying to apply it as I also have some ideas of my own how I may be able to improve my chances of success... BUT I am not prepared to do so when the guru is NOT
    honouring his promises....

    IF his syetm was so good, I really dont know why he wont honour it.

    IF it works theres no way I would want to ask for any refund... so what would he have to loose in honouring it !..

    BUT as I have seen 4 others fail with it and one was a close associate of mine who did a LOT of work in trying to apply it... then I must admitt to being some what concerned about it.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    For the amount of time spent on this thread you could have written numerous letters to the guru outlining your concerns about fraud and either demanding leads or your money back, or put the issues into a small claims complaint.
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  • Profile picture of the author dowsp
    Just a quick update on my thread,

    Its almost a year since I last wrote..

    I am still trying to ask the Guru whom I signed up with for a further trial under a guarantee that was initially offered on his salesletter.

    I have not gone down the legal route as yet of trying to get legal help to try and get
    a refund... BUT I did make some further enquiries about it... and I did find a couple of
    legal firms that were willing to try and help me for a reasonable fee with at least by sending an initial letter to the Guru to try and act as a 3rd party opinion and ask him
    if he will honour me with a time extension on the initial guarantee..
    I was offered by one firm that they will send him a initial letter for about £300....

    ( There dont seem very many Legal companies that actually will deal with Internet related businesses )

    This I am now considering as After my last attempt to ask the Guru again... I still dont seem to be getting anywhere in terms of him honouring me a guarantee period.
    Although he is still offering me to supply me with the 500 leads..At least I respect him for that.

    BUT on my behalf I have ended up tying up £5000 for over 2 years and have not
    been able to try and even apply the system.

    Another concern that I have , is that in this time things may have changed..
    The way business is done and the fact that Social networking has grown so big
    may have effects on how people ( prospects) look at considering business proposals.

    So Unless hes also offering some changes in how he suggests applying the system and business that he is supplying... I have to question will he still be using outdated methods.

    He had the old system set in place.... Product offer, website and salesletter.. to promote his initial main front end free offer, that leads to a backend offer...
    Then followed by autoresponder messages to promote other offers including many Click bank offers..

    These days a lot of promotion is now done via video and automated systems to drive traffic...

    Should I be asking his system to be working with updated methods for £5000... and not be accepting Old methods that are flooded with many similar offers..

    Dowsp
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