It's difficult to find a no-leaking clickbank sales page

12 years ago

While there are some people here who caution against promoting anything that has a squeeze on its sales page, I think you need to delve a little deeper before rejecting them out of hand.

Many vendors create the opt in to help affiliates sell more. Everything they send out simply gives your customer another opportunity to buy, using your affiliate id.

True, there are a few vendors who use their own affiliate ids in their follow messages, thus overwriting your cookie, and those ones should be avoided like the plague.

Check them before you reject them. Sign up and see what kind of links they send you. Follow the order process and see if your id is preserved.

If it is, no problem. No problem at all.

Martin

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JohnPhillips991551 11 years ago

thanks Martin sir for this share.
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hollowtip0504

12 years ago

Clickbank requires all vendors to have a support email somewhere on their sales page for potential or paying customers. If you are looking for sales pages without support I would look at vendors outside of clickbank.

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scrofford

11 years ago

Originally Posted by hollowtip0504

Clickbank requires all vendors to have a support email somewhere on their sales page for potential or paying customers. If you are looking for sales pages without support I would look at vendors outside of clickbank.

That's not what the OP is talking about. He's talking about leaky pages. Do a search in this forum to learn more about what a leaky Clickbank sales page is and why you should avoid them.

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ru83n

12 years ago

Very informative response Mr Martin.., thanks for the idea..

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tycoon828

12 years ago

Thanks Martin for your help.

Thanks

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Alexa Smith

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Martin.Avis

there are a few vendors who use their own affiliate ids in their follow messages, thus overwriting your cookie, and those ones should be avoided like the plague.

Check them before you reject them. Sign up and see what kind of links they send you. Follow the order process and see if your id is preserved.

If it is, no problem. No problem at all.

I'm afraid that, for many reasons, that doesn't follow at all, Martin - it really doesn't!

(i) It takes 8 weeks to do (because that's the duration of a Clickbank cookie on my prospective customers' computers). Vendors who are sending other hoplinks to overwrite the affiliate's hoplink don't do it straight away, and of course do it to only a proportion of the leads anyway. Otherwise they'd lose their affiliates, wouldn't they? So it takes up to 8 weeks to know. When there are over 13,000 active products to choose from, why would a serious affiliate want to go to the trouble of doing that?! Why should they have to?! :confused:

(ii) Even if you do that, there's no way of knowing, just because you receive nothing amiss, that nobody else does either, is there? You might not be among the 20% of leads with whom the vendor's cheating. Or maybe it's 30%. Or maybe it's 40%. Who knows? You don't and neither do I, and this isn't a way of finding out, obviously!

(iii) You'd have no way of knowing whether the vendor might change his mind about that even after you'd "cleared" him for 8 weeks, would you? Why should you take a chance on that when you don't have to?

Opting in yourself and checking what emails you get from the vendor isn't a reliable way of knowing whether or not you're going to earn your commissions! This subject certainly tends to be fraught with mistaken reasoning and illogic.

The reality is that all an ethical vendor needs to do is to recognise that his more serious, professional successful affiliates, having generated the potential customer with their skills, work, effort, time, energy and resources, want the lead on their list, not on the vendor's list - and provide a choice of sales pages: one with an opt-in and one without an opt in. It'll take him about 10 minutes to do that.

If a vendor won't do that, on request, what's he really telling you?!

These are vendors who "haven't quite worked out how the Pareto principle works". To put it very charitably indeed.

Affiliates considering promoting a product of which the only available sales page has a vendor's opt-in might be interested in a slow, careful read-through of all the explanations and discussion in this fine thread.

Originally Posted by tycoon828

almost more than 95% of them have opt-in form, fill in the form to get free newsletter, 4 free chapters, 7 days free trial, or contact me here, or email to our support email, etc.

I must be promoting products from a different "Clickbank" from the one you're looking at, then, because that isn't my experience at all.

Originally Posted by tycoon828

How do you guys find a real sales page without all these leaking factors?

By browsing Clickbank's marketplace and avoiding all the crappy, hyped-up, low-converting, low-selling, high-gravity products which I wouldn't touch with a barge-pole anyway: those are most of the ones with leaky sales-pages, and collectively they usually convert badly anyway (there are reasons for that!), so I have no problem with this at all.

High gravity and leaks often go together (there are reasons for that, too, of course, and potentially very instructive ones if you think about them carefully), and it's a real pleasure - financially as well as ethically - to avoid both.

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tycoon828 12 years ago

[QUOTE=
I must be promoting products from a different "Clickbank" from the one you're looking at, then, because that isn't my experience at all.

[/QUOTE]

LOL

But why when I browse CB's marketplace and check those product's sales page, I can hardly find one without those leaky factors on it. Maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 is really a clean sales page. All others have those leaky thing.
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- Alexa Smith Banned 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by tycoon828
  
  Maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 is really a clean sales page. All others have those leaky thing.
  
  LOL, I bet you're looking at higher gravity products than I am! (But even only 20% of about 13,500 active products would still be 2,700 to choose from, you know?)
  
  Thanks
  
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  Martin Avis 12 years ago
  
  @Alexa: You seem to be a successful marketer and yet you spend such a lot of time and effort worrying about being ripped off. I don't concern myself with it too much at all, beyond basic checks and make a fine living that is relatively stress free.
  
  I'm not saying you are wrong or I am right - simply that you have your methods and concerns and I have mine. God for you, and good for me. Viva La Difference!
  
  Martin
  
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paulie888

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

I'm afraid that, for many reasons, that doesn't follow at all, Martin - it really doesn't!

(i) It takes 8 weeks to do (because that's the duration of a Clickbank cookie on my prospective customers' computers). Vendors who are sending other hoplinks to overwrite the affiliate's hoplink don't do it straight away, and of course do it to only a proportion of the leads anyway. Otherwise they'd lose their affiliates, wouldn't they? So it takes up to 8 weeks to know. When there are over 13,000 active products to choose from, why would a serious affiliate want to go to the trouble of doing that?! Why should they have to?! :confused:

(ii) Even if you do that, there's no way of knowing, just because you receive nothing amiss, that nobody else does either, is there? You might not be among the 20% of leads with whom the vendor's cheating. Or maybe it's 30%. Or maybe it's 40%. Who knows? You don't and neither do I, and this isn't a way of finding out, obviously!

(iii) You'd have no way of knowing whether the vendor might change his mind about that even after you'd "cleared" him for 8 weeks, would you? Why should you take a chance on that when you don't have to?

Opting in yourself and checking what emails you get from the vendor isn't a reliable way of knowing whether or not you're going to earn your commissions! This subject certainly tends to be fraught with mistaken reasoning and illogic.

The reality is that all an ethical vendor needs to do is to recognise that his more serious, professional successful affiliates, having generated the potential customer with their skills, work, effort, time, energy and resources, want the lead on their list, not on the vendor's list - and provide a choice of sales pages: one with an opt-in and one without an opt in. It'll take him about 10 minutes to do that.

If a vendor won't do that, on request, what's he really telling you?!

These are vendors who "haven't quite worked out how the Pareto principle works". To put it very charitably indeed.

Affiliates considering promoting a product of which the only available sales page has a vendor's opt-in might be interested in a slow, careful read-through of all the explanations and discussion in this fine thread.

I must be promoting products from a different "Clickbank" from the one you're looking at, then, because that isn't my experience at all.

By browsing Clickbank's marketplace and avoiding all the crappy, hyped-up, low-converting, low-selling, high-gravity products which I wouldn't touch with a barge-pole anyway: those are most of the ones with leaky sales-pages, and collectively they usually convert badly anyway (there are reasons for that!), so I have no problem with this at all.

High gravity and leaks often go together (there are reasons for that, too, of course, and potentially very instructive ones if you think about them carefully), and it's a real pleasure - financially as well as ethically - to avoid both.

One way around this (though it will require some additional work) is to create a nice sales video that links directly to the Clickbank payment page, completely bypassing the sales page and opt-in form. This will take some work, but it's a very feasible way of getting around that pesky opt-in form.

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kkrueger 12 years ago

Okay...this is what happens with the vendor in the case of the product I was promoting.

You go to the vendors Clickbank Sales page via a hoplink.

And the first thing that happens, you get a popover optin... and then
when you scroll down you see another optin for a e-mini course.

So you go through the double optin. Then you get your first part of
the free mini course. And the email says...because of email filters, they
have the free mini course online. So you click the link and it takes
you back to their website with a different subdirectory.

Guess what? When you go to buy the program because of the BIG ORANGE
buy button at the bottom of their FREE E-mini course page...it takes you to a
completely different check out! They are using a secure checkout payment
processor that takes credit cards and paypal. It is not a Clickbank checkout...
so all my work promoting their product...even if it's to send them to their free
mini course...is wasted.

If that isn't a major leak...I don't know what is.

Now it's my understanding that according to Clickbank's rules, that you as a
marketer, cannot send a potential buyer directly to a checkout page that bypasses
the vendor's sales page. But it's okay for a vendor to do that to their affiliates?

This vendor is more than just a simple sales page...they are offering all types of
products, and have two different packages they offer. Their free mini course was not targeting CD's or meditation tapes, they are promoting their big $127 System.

This also happens to be a very hot niche, with lots of traffic. Otherwise my optins
on my "squeeze page" would not have been so high.

My humble advice...look for Clickbank products that are built for affiliates.

If the vendors who are reading this, maybe you are one of those marketers that don't redirect optins to a different checkout... and you take care of your affiliates.

I guess what makes me nuts is, that we as affiliates are looked as greedy and in a lack mentality, and the only thing we care about is making money and tricking people.

And nobody takes the time to see that vendors are marketers too...only from the other side of the coin. They are promoting sales for their products, and don't you think that maybe some of them have a greedy lack mentality when they redirect optins to a different payment processor so they don't have to pay their affiliates?

Everybody takes for granted that Clickbank products are "safe" and easy to promote. When you are honest, and work hard to get your affiliate site to number one on Google for your keywords, and you're happy to share in the rewards with the vendor, how does it make you feel to know in the mean time they're taking your sales by offering a free shiney thing through the optin on the sales page and then ultimately redirecting them to a different checkout or overwriting your cookie?

I am not against vendors making their own sales...I'm not saying that. I am saying give credit where credit is due. If the vendor is offering an opportunity for a marketer to help them in selling their product, then give them credit for the sale or lead. Don't take the free lead and the sale too. I think there should be a way for Clickbank to have vendors differentiate between whether they want a payment processor (Clickbank) or a way to share profits with marketers and are really offering a share of the profits for their affiiates.

If the vendors want affiliates to help them with sales and they are willing to share the profits, and reward the hardworking marketers that buy domains and pay for hosting, and build squidoo lenses and hub pages and write tons of unique articles and provide freebies to direct traffic and sales to the vendors sales page, then be honest about it.

They shouldn't take the affiliate's leads...if there is an optin form...the vendor's autoresponder could say...Thanks for opting in...and here is your free shiney thing...and by the way, if you got here because you were referred by someone else...please say thanks to them by using their payment links if you decide to purchase my product.

The sad part is, this type of practice just drives more and more people to devise ways to cheat and get around the system. Cookie stuffing software wouldn't have worked in this case, and maybe the vendor has been cheated by people that used that type of thing, so they are retaliating by redirecting optins to a different checkout system. This is what breeds the greed and the lack.

And "leaks" happens in all areas of marketing...CPA offers get scrubbed, Adsense gets smart priced, Amazon only has 24 hour cookies. If you are interested in really making money, the only way to do it, is to make your own product, and offer an affiliate program. LOL And so the cycle begins.
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- tycoon828 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by kkrueger
  
  If you are interested in really making money, the only way to do it, is to make your own product.
  
  I agree to that.
  
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- Dan Bainbridge 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by kkrueger
  
  If that isn't a major leak...I don't know what is.
  
  Yeh, you're right, of course - that is a major leak
  
  Such a shame to see this still happening, plenty of ideas on this thread on how to screen if this is happening or not, ultimately you can find an alternative vendor to promote, but just a real shame this is the case
  
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  wordwizard 12 years ago
  
  Wow, that's really frustrating! Especially if it seems the best (or only really good) product out there.
  
  Here's another solution if that's the case...
  
  Look into creating your OWN complementary product, either a free one or an alternate one, and maybe even a lower-priced one, and then promote the site from within YOUR product and follow-up emails, offering them a bonus if they bought through your link directly...
  
  Oh, and if you know how to direct link to their order page, you can do that too if you presell it enough ;-)
  
  I know. All of that means extra work, but if it's a really good niche, it might be worth it.
  
  Of course it might not be practical with just anything, but in some cases, you might be able to pull it off.
  
  Elisabeth
  
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rondo

12 years ago

Those aren't really leaks. In fact all of them should help close a sale if used properly.
A typical leak would be a link to another payment method, product or displaying Adsense ads etc.

I often choose to promote product pages with opt-ins and have had great results most of the time.
I find most vendors are honest, but like Martin said it's good to check and see how they operate.

Andrew

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tycoon828

12 years ago

Originally Posted by rondo

Those aren't really leaks. In fact all of them should help close a sale if used properly.
A typical leak would be a link to another payment method, product or displaying Adsense ads etc.

I often choose to promote product pages with opt-ins and have had great results most of the time.
I find most vendors are honest, but like Martin said it's good to check and see how they operate.

Andrew

You are wrong! I just tested one clickbank product using Martin's method.

and I found a REALLY BAD BAD BAD BOY!!!!!!!!!!

I found a clickbank product in a niche that I am interested in.

I did keyword research in Google's keyword tool and found a high search volume keyword.

I then searched this keyword in google and checked the No1 website. It's an affiliate website that is promoting this clickbank product.

I wrote down this affiliate's ID, then sign in the free mini course.

I then logged in my email and checked what will happen.

The vendor sent me an confirmation email and I clicked the link in it. It redirected me to a web page with many different clickbank products on it ----- all with the vendor's affiliate link inside.

After the confirmation email, the vendor sent me the first mini course and have a link in it. I clicked the link, went to the vendor's sale page, click buy product link, and at the bottom of the payment page, it is still the vendor's affiliate ID.

What a pity! That keyword has high search volume and it's very difficult for that affiliate to get to No1 on Google's SERP, but all his/her work is stollen by that BAD vendor.

So I will say thanks to Alexa for her really good suggestion: don't touch any product with leaky factor on the sales page ( opt-in form, free newsletter, free mini course, free first chapter, 7 days free trial, contact me, etc. )

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rondo 12 years ago

Originally Posted by tycoon828

You are wrong!

No, I was right and so were you - You checked before promoting.

Now find a better vendor.
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Alexa Smith

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by tycoon828

The vendor sent me an confirmation email and I clicked the link in it. It redirected me to a web page with many different clickbank products on it ----- all with the vendor's affiliate link inside.

After the confirmation email, the vendor sent me the first mini course and have a link in it. I clicked the link, went to the vendor's sale page, click buy product link, and at the bottom of the payment page, it is still the vendor's affiliate ID.

Unfortunately, in spite of constant protestations from vendors here, whenever's the subject's discussed, that this is "very rare" (which, of course, they have no possible way of knowing), it's actually very common.

I did quite a lot of research on this (very laborious effort indeed!) in late 2008 and early 2009, on which I've commented here repeatedly, obviously making myself rather unpopular in some quarters in the process, and in my admittedly small "trial" of high gravity products with an opt-in, this was the case at some point during the 8 weeks for 85.7% of the products I "tested" (which were more or less randomly selected: I wasn't deliberately trying to catch people out - I just didn't understand why I was earning so little from all the products with a vendor's opt-in by comparison with other, equivalent products without the opt-in). I don't for a moment suggest that they all did this immediately, as in the example you've described, of course.

If that's not a "leak", I don't know what is!

Many honest vendors already provide two versions of their sales page, with and without the opt-in. Many more will promptly provide one on request. I myself promote 4 such products. The longest it's ever taken a vendor to provide me, on request, with an opt-in-free sales page was a couple of days, and that was someone who very kindly coded my hoplink into the page so that I don't even have to use it (which works brilliantly).

There are, of course, also some entirely honest vendors like Submp3s above, the extremely unusual nature of whose sales "page" (which I have to say I like very much) determines that they can't possibly do this.

Thanks
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moxy62 12 years ago

Thanks so much for all your info. I am a new affiliate marketer and knowing about vendors willingness to provide no opt-in pages is a great help.
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- tycoon828 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by moxy62
  
  Thanks so much for all your info. I am a new affiliate marketer and knowing about vendors willingness to provide no opt-in pages is a great help.
  
  Welcome to warriorforum. And thank you moxy62 for posting your first post in my thread!
  
  Thanks
  
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Dan Bainbridge

12 years ago

I have an opt-in on my sales page. I need it... my site is driven by m opt-in, and all links that come back from my newsletter are credited to affiliates as normal - they are all natural links with no cookie to overwrite you.

This is WHY my program is successful - as when people join my newsletter they receive 3 products from me so they can see exactly if it is right for them or not and exactly how it works - no sales page to misinterpret, they already have a product... they can then buy any of my 250+ other albums and know exactly what theyre getting - that's not all though, each week they will receive our autoresponder with an offer off our most popular albums - each week a different focus.

I estimate that my site converts at double what it would do without this opt-in, and so I won't remove it, and ALL of my best affiliates, without exception are those who promote the 3 free albums we give away - as it is MUCH EASIER to recommend some free gifts than to tell someone to checkout a sales page, or just to "click here to find out more"; the click through for a free gift will be more than double, and then they receive our followup offer emails...

I hope you can see the logic in why vendors use opt-ins, and many of the top 10 CB products are ONLY simple landing pages with an opt-in on them... but yes, as mentioned above checkout the newsletter and make sure it is not overwriting, and even get in touch with the vendor - ask them, and ask their advice on promoting them generally.

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tycoon828

12 years ago

Hi, Alexa,

Is refund rate 8% high or not? What's your requirement about CB product's refund rate?

Thanks !

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Alexa Smith Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by tycoon828

Is refund rate 8% high or not? What's your requirement about CB product's refund rate?

I don't have one.

For two reasons:-

(i) This information isn't available anyway: it's not released by Clickbank. I know that there are various sites and services which claim to be able to "calculate" the refund-rates. Call me a skepchick but I don't believe a word of it, because whatever software and/or techniques they're using to manipulate their data, the reality is that they don't have any information that you and I don't have, and I don't trust their "estimations" at all;

(ii) Different affiliates have hugely differing refund rates for the same product, according to how (and to whom) they've presold the product. Many affiliates have pre-sell pages that read almost like sales pages and make ridiculous claims about the product, and they have the refund rates you'd expect when they're selling a product with a dishonest claim about what it's likely to do/achieve.

I accept that products in some niches do, overall, have rather higher refund-rates than others (forex?!), partly because their sales pages tend to make unsubstantiated and unrealistic claims and partly because their customers tend also to have unrealistic expectations, but the "average refund-rate" for a product I'm going to promote really isn't relevant to me anyway.
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Bill_Z

12 years ago

I have alot of traffic going directly to my sales page because it ranks high for a bunch of keywords. Because of this I have an opt-in on the exit page, and quite frankly if I didn't do this I would lose alot of money. I have to try to capture leads from this traffic.

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Matt MacPherson

12 years ago

Originally Posted by tycoon828

or contact me here, or email to our support email, etc.

ClickBank requires that you have contact information on your site. I'm a vendor, I know this.

Affiliates tend to like sending their traffic to a straight up sales page with no opt-in, but you have to realize if done right, an opt-in can increase conversion dramatically.

The whole reason affiliates don't like "leaky" sales pages is because it gives unethical vendors the chance to (for example) send your traffic to a separate payment processor, screwing you out of the commission. I've actually never seen this done before, but it seems to be an irrational fear most affiliates have. Sign up yourself and see if they are doing anything questionable before you promote the offer.

Also, links in the footer like a privacy policy, contact page, terms of use, are required. They do not qualify as being "leaky".

Cheers,
Matt

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tycoon828

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt MacPherson

ClickBank requires that you have contact information on your site. I'm a vendor, I know this.

Also, links in the footer like a privacy policy, contact page, terms of use, are required. They do not qualify as being "leaky".

Cheers,
Matt

Hi, Matt,

I just checked your two products' sales page, to me that's the clean, pure, no-leaky sales page.

I don't mind you have contact me or contact us link at the footer of your sales page. What I am talking is those sales page with " if you have any problem, please contact me" at least 2 to 3 times scattered all around the sales letter with the contact me clickable. I think that is a leaky sales page.

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bretski

12 years ago

Originally Posted by tycoon828

Hi, Matt,

I just checked your two products' sales page, to me that's the clean, pure, no-leaky sales page.

I don't mind you have contact me or contact us link at the footer of your sales page. What I am talking is those sales page with " if you have any problem, please contact me" at least 2 to 3 times scattered all around the sales letter with the contact me clickable. I think that is a leaky sales page.

Matt's stuff is awesome. Plain and simple. I wish all vendors were like him.

The other stuff about leaky sales pages though...I side with Alexa every time. We are quite like minded in this respect. I dig the skepchick...

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Matt MacPherson

12 years ago

If dishonest vendors are really that widespread then I am honestly shocked. I used to promote as an affiliate myself and still do to an extent. I haven't personally come across any major vendor who is intentionally ripping his affiliates off.

Seems like an irrational fear rooted in myth.

Matt

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Matt D. 12 years ago

Well when it comes to this you can NEVER be completely sure what the seller is doing. Some do actually use your ID and you get a commission even if somebody buys trough their emails, some probably try to avoid this.

This is where testing comes into play, you can test many different offers and then see which one converts better for you. When everything is set in place changing the offer for more money is really easy.

There is no sure way of knowing.
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Ronak Shah

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt MacPherson

If dishonest vendors are really that widespread then I am honestly shocked. I used to promote as an affiliate myself and still do to an extent. I haven't personally come across any major vendor who is intentionally ripping his affiliates off.

Seems like an irrational fear rooted in myth.

Matt

I disagree to an extent to what you're saying right now.

I have heard of vendors cheating affiliates and it happens in the market so it's not a fear but a fact.

I've heard affiliates screaming foul!

And thanks to Alexa for letting me know the leaks! I'll take care when I promote a clickbank product.

I usually don't promote clickbank products. I only promote big ticket or big commission products.

Ronak.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt MacPherson

ClickBank requires that you have contact information on your site. I'm a vendor, I know this.

They require that you have it available for customers, I think, Matt - not for "prospective customers"? Yes, after people pay, clearly they have to have a way to get in touch with you. Rather different, I think?

Originally Posted by Martin.Avis

@Alexa: You seem to be a successful marketer and yet you spend such a lot of time and effort worrying about being ripped off.

On the contrary, Martin: once I'd discovered (as have so many others, as can be seen, of course, from the voting here) how to avoid it, I never gave it another moment's thought. My sole original reason for posting in this thread was to correct a factually mistaken statement which had nothing at all to do with anyone's opinions.

I do have what some people might consider an extravagant fondness for correcting factual misinformation on the board, when I see it, because its relentless presence here was actually what held me back from making a living for 5 months myself, when I started, so I like to "do my bit" to make it easier for the people following a bit later. I hope that's ok with you!

Originally Posted by Matt MacPherson

Seems like an irrational fear rooted in myth.

Not to me, it doesn't (nor indeed to the majority of Warriors who took part in that poll, of course): but hey - I'm just the person who did the research and proved it - that must be "irrational" if you've never found one yourself: what do I know, right? :p

Originally Posted by Matt D.

There is no sure way of knowing.

I find avoiding vendors' sales pages with an opt-in sure enough, as do so many others. And easily done, when there are over 13,500 active products to choose from. That's as sure as you can get, I think? A vendor will put one up for you without the opt-in, if you ask nicely. (And if he won't, ask yourself why not!).

The one thing that's for certain (which is where I came into this conversation and where I may as well go out of it again) is that "opting in yourself" to see what comes back from the vendor is extremely unreliable (and that's tested and proven) as well as very time-consuming (obviously).

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Dan Bainbridge

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

My sole original reason for posting in this thread was to correct a factually mistaken statement which had nothing at all to do with anyone's opinions.

I would argue that in-fact it is opinion. As far as my experience goes my "facts" are that opt-ins GREATLY increase sales - they answer objections, offer samples, provide upsells, and offer discounts. They say it takes 7 visits before someone buys - with a newsletter they are much more likely to visit a few more times and have their objecions answered.

I would say it is opinion rather than fact though as I do respect your experience with vendors with opt-ins, and I know it does happen, but it is opinion as it is not black and white - not all do this, and if you get someone who is honest and doesn't steal the sale then a newsletter can be an excellent tool...

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

I do have what some people might consider an extravagant fondness for correcting factual misinformation on the board, when I see it, because its relentless presence here was actually what held me back from making a living for 5 months myself

Again, I think this is a real shame, it angers me to think people do this, cheat you out of money, and give everyone a bad name - I wish it wass a different story for you, that you stumbled into an honest vendor and really saw the power of them having a solid newsletter series for you and saw how much easier it made your work...

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

A vendor will put one up for you without the opt-in, if you ask nicely. (And if he won't, ask yourself why not!).

I will openly say it - "I won't".

And the reason, as I stated above is that my site is MASSIVELY DRIVEN by my newsletter / autoresponder. I can't know for sure, but I would estimate my conversion rate to be doubled because of it.

So it's catch 22 situation for me - if I remove the opt-in I might get an affiliate who wouldn't promote me otherwise, but if the conversion rate is then only 1% instead of 2%+ because people who are new to my product and have unanswered questions, hesitations, or would of converted if they received an offer on some of my best selling products a week later...then I lose the affiliate anyway.

I do really respect you Alexa, I know you are successful online, I do find it pretty crazy that you have been hammering this issue like it is the law for probably over 2 years now (?) and still are.... I also know you have deeper reasons which I agree with:

Now I don't want to write your opinions for you, but basically I think your deeper reason is that you know email marketing works, but if you promote something then you want to write an email series about it and own the list. I agree with this completely to be honest...

On the other hand, imo, this is not possible for a lot of new affilaites - especially to do a good job of it - to write as well as the vendor could about their own product, and to convert as well as the vendor could - also it is pretty much just 1 step away from being the vendor. One bonus of being an affiliate is that you can keep away from customer service, that you can just setup a site, funnel traffic to a vendor and collect your commissions - why not just go the extra step and develop your own product if youre really going to do all of this, but still give ultimate control to the vendor when you send them traffic... I do agree that this is a good way to promote, and will bring the BEST results, but it is a LOT of extra time and effort, and 99% of my affiliates wouldn't be able to do all of this, successfully at least, so I still need my own newsletter on there.

The bottom line is that my newsletter isn't on there to steal from affiliates, quite the opposite, it is there to increase conversions for myself and my affiliates and make my business successful.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by submp3s

I would argue that in-fact it is opinion.

The statement was made that you can tell whether a vendor's doing this by opting in to their list and seeing what comes back. And that's just factually wrong. That's not opinion: it's objective, provable reality: doing that does not tell you whether the vendor's honest and whether you'll be paid your commissions. As I discovered at great length and after a lot of research which others commenting here, frankly, have not done.

So it seems we'll have to agree to disagree, even about whether it was opinion or fact.

Originally Posted by submp3s

my "facts" are that opt-ins GREATLY increase sales - they answer objections, offer samples, provide upsells, and

Of course they do.

Nobody's questioning that.

That's true of vendor's opt-ins and lists, just like it's true of professional affiliates' opt-ins and lists.

That would be a good and valid point you made, if the issue were about comparing opt-in with no opt-in. But it isn't. It's about comparing "giving affiliates a choice" with "not giving affiliates a choice".

Originally Posted by submp3s

not all do this

Again, agreed.

When I did a "trial", 85.7% did it.

That was good enough for me. I think it would be good enough for most people, really, don't you?

It certainly seems from our recent poll on the subject that the majority agree with me, anyway. (That surprised me a lot, to be honest. As I commented at the start of that thread, I had expected to be in a minority, but I wasn't at all).

Originally Posted by submp3s

The bottom line is that my newsletter isn't on there to steal from affiliates, quite the opposite, it is there to increase conversions for myself and my affiliates and make my business successful.

Of course!

Hey - did you miss the comment I made about your site at the end of post # 11 above? :confused:

Nobody's questioning your motivation, your reasons, your ethics or your integrity. Least of all me! I like your sales site very much, as it happens. And from my point of view as an affiliate it's a great shame that you do things that way, because it's a niche that interests me greatly and I'd be an affiliate for your products in a (binaural) heartbeat if you didn't have that sort of set-up with your newsletter. I completely understand and respect why you do it, and I cast absolutely no aspersions whatsoever (but I will promote one of your competitors' products and I won't promote yours, I'm afraid. That's my loss, not yours, of course - you're doing the right thing for your own business, obviously).

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Dan Bainbridge

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

So it seems we'll have to agree to disagree, even about whether it was opinion or fact.

Hehe, I do love our conversations Alexa

Originally Posted by Bill_Z

You can just make available another version of the salespage that is not crawled or indexed by google. This way your main sales page with your optin is the one out there, but affiliates who want to build their own list and market with their own autoresponder series can send traffic to the salespage without an optin.

Isn't an option for us as we're not just a 1 page site, but a 250+ page webstore and the newsletter is just so integral to what we do, and massively drives sales. As I said above, my site wouldn't work half as well without it.

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Martin Avis

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

The statement was made that you can tell whether a vendor's doing this by opting in to their list and seeing what comes back. And that's just factually wrong. That's not opinion: it's objective, provable reality: doing that does not tell you whether the vendor's honest and whether you'll be paid your commissions.

It is somewhat disquieting to be assailed as a liar - or perhaps a misguided fool - over something I know to be true. Alexa, you may have your opinions and I may have mine, but I'd appreciate your shrill rebuttal rather more if I thought for a second you were right.

Your objections seems to be based on the idea that although a vendor's autoresponder series might be white hat NOW, there is no immediate way to know if he/she will cheat you in eight weeks time.

You know what? If he does, he does. I'll have made all the money I need in the first week, so if he decides to don a hat of a different colour later on I won't care a jot.

Your zealous insistence on the degree of caution you espouse simply reeks of paranoia to me. But hey ho. You do it your way and I'll do it mine.

This is why I rarely involve myself in ClickBank threads: they always seem to deteriorate into those who just get on with life and making money and those who seek to find conspiracies behind everything.

I'm out. Lesson learned.

Martin

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Alexa Smith Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Martin.Avis

It is somewhat disquieting to be assailed as a liar - or perhaps a misguided fool - over something I know to be true.

That wasn't my intention at all, Martin, and I apologise - and sincerely - if that was how I came across.

Please tell me what wording would be a more appropriate way of imparting the information that this theory that you can reliably tell whether or not the vendor's up to any sharp tricks which will affect your payment by opting in for his email series yourself and seeing what comes back is actually mistaken.

My own research has repeatedly proven it to be mistaken, for the simple reason that different people, opting in, may (and sometimes do!) receive different hoplinks in the vendor's autoresponder emails. That's just factual. (And potentially for other valid reasons, too, but one good reason is enough to disprove it).

Is there a way for me to convey that information without offending you? I'd dearly like to! And I'm sorry if words like "mistaken" and "inaccurate" are causing offense.

It's a matter that's important to me simply because I used to believe that, myself. I read it here, as many others do, and I naively trusted and believed it, when I started. It was a substantial part of the reason for which I didn't earn a living for about 4 months.

As soon as I realised that it wasn't actually so, even without at the time fully understanding why (I learned that only later, from my rather painstaking research), I started making quite a good living.

It was as significant as that, for me, and I know that it has been for other Warriors, too. I have my p.m. inbox to tell me that in no uncertain terms, but it's also information available to anyone who reads the many threads on this thorny subject. My motivation for being a little insistent about correcting that theory is simply to try to avoid others falling into the trap (of believing it) into which I myself fell. I have no other axe to grind here, and no other agenda at all, as I hope and trust you can see?

I can't apologise enough if the way in which I've done so has offended you.

I'm afraid I don't understand your reference to "conspiracies" at all: I'm certainly not claiming (and never have done) that anyone's "conspiring" with anyone else about this issue.
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Bill_Z

12 years ago

Originally Posted by submp3s

I will openly say it - "I won't".

And the reason, as I stated above is that my site is MASSIVELY DRIVEN by my newsletter / autoresponder. I can't know for sure, but I would estimate my conversion rate to be doubled because of it.

You can just make available another version of the salespage that is not crawled or indexed by google. This way your main sales page with your optin is the one out there, but affiliates who want to build their own list and market with their own autoresponder series can send traffic to the salespage without an optin.

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Black Hat Cat

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt MacPherson

If dishonest vendors are really that widespread then I am honestly shocked. I used to promote as an affiliate myself and still do to an extent. I haven't personally come across any major vendor who is intentionally ripping his affiliates off.

Seems like an irrational fear rooted in myth.

Matt

If dishonest vendors were that widespread, Clickbank wouldn't have any, and would be out of business.

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Floyd Fisher

12 years ago

Originally Posted by tycoon828

I find it's very difficult to find a no-leaking clickbank sales page.

almost more than 95% of them have opt-in form, fill in the form to get free newsletter, 4 free chapters, 7 days free trial, or contact me here, or email to our support email, etc.

How do you guys find a real sales page without all these leaking factors?

How to attack your problem.

1. Bulid you own list first before driving them to the salespage.

2. Offer exclusive bonuses for buying through you.

Do both, and you don't have to worry about a leaking problem.

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tycoon828

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

How to attack your problem.

1. Bulid you own list first before driving them to the salespage.

2. Offer exclusive bonuses for buying through you.

Do both, and you don't have to worry about a leaking problem.

Thanks for your suggestion.

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Floyd Fisher 12 years ago

Originally Posted by tycoon828

Thanks for your suggestion.

That is not a suggestion, it's you ought to be doing.
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tycoon828

12 years ago

Thanks for all you guys' opinion.

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rapph

12 years ago

Wow! This is one of the most informative threads this newbie has ever read! Thanks to you Tycoon828 for starting it!

Thanks to you Alexis for your input, as your knowledge and experience is very obvious and very much apprecieated.

Thanks also to you Martin.Avis. Your input seems equally valuable, albeit a voice from a different place than the place Alexis seems to be in.

SubMp3, your comments and opinions are also very refreshing to the subject, as your perspective is obviously much different than Alexis or Martin.

Floyd Fisher, your comments, however brief, offer an seemingly easy path to avoid the controversy completely. Of course, a newbie couldn't just jump into your suggestion without a lot of knowledge that can only be derived from experience, which you obviously have a lot of. Nonetheless, you draw a great conclusion in your brief post which states basically, " you are all right, but if you want something done right, do it yourself".

So here is what I'm getting from all of this:

1. There are bad people in every segment of society, and to a degree one must be constantly wary of this fact, and subsequently on guard against it.

2. It's easy to get caught up in the negative wave created by these bad people, and your mistrust can save you, but perhaps it could be carried too far and become a limiting factor as well. At the very least, certain precautions put in place would be well worth it.

3. The only sure path to good results is the one you pave for yourself inch by inch. Relying on the work of others can be helpful, but the concept carries with it certain risks. A good instinct developed over time enables one to avoid most of the setbacks and keep moving forward without "grinding your guts" over the potential pitfalls.

Thanks again to all of you. This thread exemplifies the true value of this forum!

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tycoon828

12 years ago

I'd like to add some more info.

Don't be cheated by the vendor's promise!!

The BAD BOY who steals his ( yes from the name I know he is a guy ) affiliates' profit claims that he will help you to success in a very honest tone. If I didn't find the fact and just read his affiliate page, I will even be moved by him because after reading his promise, I have a feeling: oh, how nice a guy he is !!!!!!

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kkrueger

12 years ago

Thank you Alexa for bringing this information to light. It was a painful realization for me when I was trying to promote a "system" in the healing niche. I went to great lengths to write a very useful freebie to give to my optins on my squeeze page. It converted at about 14-20% Then once they opted in, I sent a series of very useful autoresponder posts to my list with links to the product I was promoting.

I didn't even think that an optin on the sales page would be a problem for me. I thought the vendor was ethical and would appreciate the sales I was sending...and would not try to cut me out of a sale.

Well, after over 200 optin's, I only had one sale from the clickbank product. But I had well over 100 hops. Now for some of you...this may not sound like a lot...but it started to become very clear, that when people got to the sales page, they were opting for the freebie that the vendor was offering. And then when they got on their list, they were being marketed to with their autoresponder series. Therefore, I lost any sales I could have had...because they got swiped.

All my marketing efforts, in my time developing my squeeze page, the hours of developing a quality freebie, the money spent in advertising my squeeze page, were all for naught, because my coach at the time didn't advise me to find a product to promote that didn't have a leak.

I have gotten into debates with other marketers saying that I am too worried about competition, or that these people aren't really stealing my hops, it must have been a case of a bad converting sales page.

I thought about promoting another product in the same niche, but they all had optin boxes offering freebies. So I took my site down. I was tired of giving away my hard work and sending free leads to the vendor.

An optin on a sales page is completely different than a contact page. A contact page can be a link at the bottom of your website...it doesn't have to be an optin form in the middle of your sales page enticing people with a freebie.

I think a lot of people use Clickbank as a payment processing system, rather than a way to attract affiliates. But that's just my opinion.

Sorry to be so long winded, but this has been a big problem that Alexa has so galantly and fearlessly brought to the attention of many newbies. I wish I had known this before I had wasted so much time, effort, and money (money spent and money lost). Money is what this business is all about right? It was a lesson learned.

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Bill_Z

12 years ago

Originally Posted by kkrueger

Well, after over 200 optin's, I only had one sale from the clickbank product. But I had well over 100 hops. Now for some of you...this may not sound like a lot...but it started to become very clear, that when people got to the sales page, they were opting for the freebie that the vendor was offering. And then when they got on their list, they were being marketed to with their autoresponder series. Therefore, I lost any sales I could have had...because they got swiped.

All my marketing efforts, in my time developing my squeeze page, the hours of developing a quality freebie, the money spent in advertising my squeeze page, were all for naught, because my coach at the time didn't advise me to find a product to promote that didn't have a leak.

I'm sorry but I fail to see how this is a "leak" from the info you have given. Did the vendor have his own hoplink in his emails, overriding your cookie? Was the vendor including links in the emails that sent them to another payment processor other than CB?

If it just an auto-responder, with follow-ups regarding the product and other stuff, then you will STILL get credit for the sale. MOST of my affiliates get THEIR sales when the traffic they send to me opts in to my list.

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kkrueger

12 years ago

@Bill-Z This is where it's a bit confusing to explain. I will try and make as clear as possible...once the person gets my autoresponder series that says...Hey, if you want to accomplish blabla, click this link and go get it. So they click my link...trot over to the sales page where I send them. They don't buy...they get promised a free shiney thing for opting in. And that's where it stops.

So then they have two free things...one from me...and one from the vendor. Once they start getting the auto responders immediately from the vendor, I am sure the shiney thing has their links in there...that overwrites my cookies. And then they will also show them how much they need to buy this wonderful thing that I had already told them about. So they get sold again. My cookie is overwritten. And if they decide to buy "straight from the vendor" then I have lost any chance at a sale.

Why would these people want to go back to my emails, and click on my link to buy the thing they have finally decided buy. I can't prove this happened. But I know with all my hops, and only one sale...and with all my optins...that it is most likely the case.

Hence the development of cookie stuffing software that are sold on Clickbank. Cookie stuffing puts a permanent link on the visitors machine so even if they go to another affiliate site's or even the vendors site, the cookie can't be overwritten.

Because honestly, unless the vendor is tracking where their leads are coming from...do you think they are going to track me down and say...'Hey thanks for the sale, here's your commission!' I don't think so. They will see that the sale came from their autoresponder series, or from the shiney thing they sent out.

When I look for a clickbank product to promote, I look for a vendor that supplies affiliate tools, like banners, and auto responder series, and other things that are helpful in promoting the product. That tells me the vendor is serious about helping their affiliates...and I can just about guarantee there is not optin form on the sales page.

If there is a product that I could be passionate about promoting, then I could ask the vendor for a sales page without an optin.

And then there is the argument, why would I want to keep the vendor from building their own list...well, this is my theory, if they want to build their own list, they can do it when the customer checks out and pays for the product. I'm sure there are ways of collecting emails through supplying updates or keeping people up to date on upcoming products. I was not saying that the vendor was directing the buyer to another type of checkout... I was saying my cookie was overwritten by the vendor.

I have not tested this to the degree Alexa has, but I always wondered why I wasn't making any money promoting clickbank products...

Thanks
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Dan Bainbridge 12 years ago

Originally Posted by kkrueger

I can't prove this happened. But I know with all my hops, and only one sale...and with all my optins...that it is most likely the case.

Yes you can! Just go to through your link and go to the order page - at the bottom of the clickbank order page is a little text message saying

[affiliate = _____ ]

if the ____ is your ID you will get the sale. You can do this, see your ID, and then click through the newsletter links, navigate back there and see if your ID is there or not.

They might well be shaving your sales, but this is the way to actually check, and no offense but "all my hops".... you only sent 100... this is nothing really, it is so low it is just down to luck whether it converts or not - i.e. 1 conversion and everything would seem normal to you... and especially if you are new to promoting then you might not be that good at pre-selling and being an affiliate generally and so your conversion rate probably wouldn't be amazing - I know mine wasn't when I first started...
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Wayne

12 years ago

tycoon828,

You said you searched google and checked the number 1 site. It was an affiliates site and you wrote down his id. But did you click on his hoplink, actually go through his hoplink to the vendors site? You would actually need to go through his hoplink and not just go to his site from google. If you actually went through his hoplink then it would be a problem.

Thanks
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tycoon828

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Wayne

tycoon828,

You said you searched google and checked the number 1 site. It was an affiliates site and you wrote down his id. But did you click on his hoplink, actually go through his hoplink to the vendors site? You would actually need to go through his hoplink and not just go to his site from google. If you actually went through his hoplink then it would be a problem.

Yes, I clicked the affiliate's link on her( she has another link to her own blog with her face pic) site, went to the vendor's sales page, then click add to cart, and wrote down her affiliate ID at the bottom of the payment page.

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kkrueger

12 years ago

@Floyd...that is great advice...

In my case, I could use the list I have and warm them up and maybe direct them to other products that would interest them.

That brings us to a whole nuther subject of how to market effectively to your list. If you already have them, then just switch them to something else that they would be interested in.

thank you so much for joggin' the noggin!

k.

Thanks

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Rob Maggs

12 years ago

[DELETED]

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yesacpow 12 years ago

I've seen lots of dishonest vendors before... The best thing to do is to avoid them.

One thing to the OP, he states a few leaky factors and include email address.

However, as a vendor I know that it is a requirement by clickbank to have a contact information on your sales page that is 'Clearly Visible' to the customer. And from a customer's point of view, I can understand that. Some people need some form of confirmation on certain things before they buy!

What I recommend as an affiliate is that you send a test email to the product owner as if you were going to buy. Track the affiliate id before and see if he/she respond to your question and with a different link.

If you find anything fishy, cross them of your list of products to promote.
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waken

12 years ago

That's why a lot of affiliates avoid sales pages with an opt in.

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kkrueger

12 years ago

@ Yesacpow and submp3s

Well, I contacted Clickbank with this development regarding the vendor that was redirecting the sales funnel to a different checkout page, and their response was...if you don't like how they are doing their business..find a different vendor to promote.

I also contacted the vendor and told them how unhappy I was about how they were redirecting my leads to a different checkout page, and they basically told me that I was doing something wrong and using the wrong sales page.

So the bottom line is...check them out first like others have posted, and then move on. But Personally, I would not recommend using a vendor that has an optin form on their sales page. They can build their list other ways. And the contact form can be in the links at the bottom of the page where many links are found. It does not have to be an optin form.

The optin forms I have seen don't say... "Contact Us Here" They usually say..."Try out our Product For FREE...fill out the form below".

And the crazy part is...that this vendor is cheating Clickbank out of their cut of a sale too... and they don't care. So okay...why can't a marketer direct their leads directly to the Clickbank checkout page and bypass the sales page?

I know it can be done...but I thought it was against the TOS of Clickbank.

Oh well... Onward and upward. It takes too much time and energy to worry about these kind of people.

Peace out...

Thanks
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tycoon828

12 years ago

Originally Posted by kkrueger

@ Yesacpow and submp3s

Well, I contacted Clickbank with this development regarding the vendor that was redirecting the sales funnel to a different checkout page, and their response was...if you don't like how they are doing their business..find a different vendor to promote.

.

I was shocked by this response. Who is this guy to reply you? Click bank must don't pay him well I guess.:p

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Alexa Smith

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by tycoon828

I contacted Clickbank with this development regarding the vendor that was redirecting the sales funnel to a different checkout page, and their response was...if you don't like how they are doing their business..find a different vendor to promote.

I was shocked by this response. Who is this guy to reply you? Click bank must don't pay him well I guess.:p

It's bluntly worded, certainly.

But it's accurate, and fair comment, you know?

We can't ask Clickbank to take responsibility for this, get involved in it, or try to "police" it, because it would be an absolutely unmanageable situation for them. I do see their perspective on this issue, and don't blame them for having the attitude that they do. (They could explain it more politely, obviously, but that's another matter and their behavior at least matches their overall ethos of "customer service" or what passes for it).

Their position is that if someone opts in to the vendor's page, then from that moment on they "belong" to the vendor, not to the affiliate. This has to be their position, really: they couldn't possibly regulate or enforce anything else, you know?

They allow vendors to do this. This is why the people who post here saying that such vendors are "stealing" their leads have technically got it wrong: vendors are simply doing something that Clickbank allows them to do.

As the guy said: if you don't like how they're doing business, you have the remedy in your own hands by promoting someone else's product instead. Which is what so many of us wisely do, as you can see from all the threads like this one.

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rondo

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Their position is that if someone opts in to the vendor's page, then from that moment on they "belong" to the vendor, not to the affiliate. This has to be their position, really: they couldn't possibly regulate or enforce anything else, you know?

They allow vendors to do this. This is why the people who post here saying that such vendors are "stealing" their leads have technically got it wrong: vendors are simply doing something that Clickbank allows them to do.

CB doesn't "allow" this. They don't have any control over it, because they are only non-exclusive resellers of the products.

Andrew

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Alexa Smith

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by rondo

CB don't "allow" this.

Andrew, they expressly allow it, and they say so openly and consistently, in writing, whenever asked about it. How clear can it be?!

And as I said above, I don't blame them. They can't really disallow it. Not without making huge and expensive and time-consuming changes to the way they work. I suspect you're attempting to argue over a mere semantic/interpretative point, and I just can't be bothered; sorry. :p

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Matt MacPherson

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Andrew, they expressly allow it, and they say so openly and consistently, in writing, whenever asked about it.

And as I said above, I don't blame them. They can't really disallow it. Not without making huge and expensive and time-consuming changes to the way they work. I suspect you're attempting to argue over a mere semantic/interpretative point, and I just can't be bothered; sorry. :p

I had an idea while reading this. One possible way they could hedge unethical vendor behaviour would be to allow affiliates to post comments, ratings, etc, in the marketplace itself. A comment section near the product metrics (near the gravity, etc).

At first I thought this would potentially be a mess due to competitors paying others to negatively comment on competing products, but this itself could be hedged by only allowing affiliates with XYZ number of sales to comment (say 100 sales). It would prevent dummy accounts from being registered.

I may mention this to my account manager and have him pass it along to the appropriate devision.

Cheers,
Matt

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tycoon828

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt MacPherson

I had an idea while reading this. One possible way they could hedge unethical vendor behaviour would be to allow affiliates to post comments, ratings, etc, in the marketplace itself. A comment section near the product metrics (near the gravity, etc).

At first I thought this would potentially be a mess due to competitors paying others to negatively comment on competing products, but this itself could be hedged by only allowing affiliates with XYZ number of sales to comment (say 100 sales). It would prevent dummy accounts from being registered.

I may mention this to my account manager and have him pass it along to the appropriate devision.

Cheers,
Matt

Good suggestion. But 100 sales? That's a big number.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt MacPherson

I had an idea while reading this. One possible way they could hedge unethical vendor behaviour would be to allow affiliates to post comments, ratings, etc, in the marketplace itself. A comment section near the product metrics (near the gravity, etc).

At first I thought this would potentially be a mess due to competitors paying others to negatively comment on competing products, but this itself could be hedged by only allowing affiliates with XYZ number of sales to comment (say 100 sales). It would prevent dummy accounts from being registered.

I think it's a great idea, Matt. Many thanks!

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Dan Bainbridge

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt MacPherson

I had an idea while reading this. One possible way they could hedge unethical vendor behaviour would be to allow affiliates to post comments, ratings, etc, in the marketplace itself. A comment section near the product metrics (near the gravity, etc).

At first I thought this would potentially be a mess due to competitors paying others to negatively comment on competing products, but this itself could be hedged by only allowing affiliates with XYZ number of sales to comment (say 100 sales). It would prevent dummy accounts from being registered.

I may mention this to my account manager and have him pass it along to the appropriate devision.

Cheers,
Matt

Nice theory, but I can never see this really happening. For a start if it was really given priority then it would flip the current top 50 on its head, and don't forget thats where Clickbank itself is making its money from. Also, Clickbank isn't going to want ANY negative reviews on any of it's programs, and neither will any vendors.

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rhu88

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Andrew, they expressly allow it, and they say so openly and consistently, in writing, whenever asked about it. How clear can it be?!

And as I said above, I don't blame them. They can't really disallow it. Not without making huge and expensive and time-consuming changes to the way they work. I suspect you're attempting to argue over a mere semantic/interpretative point, and I just can't be bothered; sorry. :p

Alexa, you gave a very important suggestion to affiliates. And that is to ask vendors to give them an alternate non-leaky salespage. you have got this from 4 out of 5 vendors you asked. Quick question: how do you link to these new salepages because there is only one form of the hop link: affiliateid.vendorid.hop.clickbank.net and clickbank only allows the vendor to choose one landing page per clickbank id - which is their leaky sales page. HOw exactly do you link to their special non-leaky sales page they give to you such that clickbank still picks up your affiliate id cookie. I dont have any answers from vendors I talked to. They say, "Can't do it - clickbank won't allow for it." Much appreciate your honest comments.

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myob

11 years ago

Originally Posted by rhu88

HOw exactly do you link to their special non-leaky sales page they give to you such that clickbank still picks up your affiliate id cookie. I dont have any answers from vendors I talked to. They say, "Can't do it - clickbank won't allow for it." Much appreciate your honest comments.

The Clickbank payment page link is always in this format:

Code:

http://prodnumber.affiliate_vendor.pay.clickbank.net

Where prodnumber is the product ID number (Usually "1", but some vendors sell multiple products with the same account)

And affiliate is your CB affiliate nickname

And vendor is the vendor name

It is true that this will not set a cookie, and it is against Clickbank's TOS to do anything even resembling "cookie stuffing". But, if you have a list, make your own custom sales page, or market using sales videos as suggested by paulie888 in post 39, this format will work. Note that you do need vendors' explicit permission to bypass the sales page. If the vendor won't grant permission, you already know what to do.

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kkrueger

12 years ago

Okay, here is the email I got back after I explained everything and asked if this was acceptable for a vendor to do... and here is the response (I imagine it's okay to post it here since they would surely tell other marketers the same thing-I'm just passing on the message):

CBCSR(Jenny C): CLOSED: 2010-10-26 03:03:49 PM
Hello,

Thank you for your inquiry. Vendors are permitted to use alternative payment
methods as well. If you do not like that this vendor has that feature setup, my
best suggestion would be to choose a different product to promote from within
the Marketplace. There are many vendors who only use the ClickBank order form.

We apologize for any inconvenience.

Thank you,

Jenny
ClickBank Client Support

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Midas3 Consulting

12 years ago

opt in forms are not there to rob you of anything unless you're dealing with 3rd rate sellers.

Opt in forms are there to help sell to those that won't always purchase on day 1.

Unbelievably we even test this stuff , with and without.

If your AR series is full of credible quality information , guess what , those tags with the opt in tag in InfusionSoft show an increase in conversions.

It's not the integration of an opt in form you should worry about it, is the type of people behind the implementation and what their aim is.

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rondo

12 years ago

Like I said, they don't have any control over it. It's beyond the scope of their business model. All the other non-exclusive software resellers work the same way.

No semantics here.

Andrew

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kkrueger

12 years ago

Or how about giving vendors the option of openly displaying whether they want affiliates and will provide affiliate tools. Or Vendors who are okay with just marketing their own products and aren't interested in having others promote for them.

For me, I have never made my product an affiliate product because the market is too small, so I use ejunkie for my delivery and payment processor. I'm not interested in paying affiliates because we would competing in the same places and my income would drop in half.

So there might vendors who only want to promote themselves and maybe they should be able to differentiate themselves from product creators who want affiliates and have set their business up for that.

When marketers are going through the marketplace, it would be a quick glance of yes - no or both. Then you can decide.

Just a thought.

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Matt MacPherson

12 years ago

Originally Posted by kkrueger

Or how about giving vendors the option of openly displaying whether they want affiliates and will provide affiliate tools. Or Vendors who are okay with just marketing their own products and aren't interested in having others promote for them.

You already have the option to not list the product in the marketplace.

Matt

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OnlineAlready

12 years ago

The logic for overwriting affiliate ids with your own is not only flawed by illogical. Doesn't mean some people don't do it but overall if you are a merchant you know that people won't continue to promote your product if they aren't making sales. Lack of affiliate sales also reduces your gravity/popularity ranking....it's just shooting yourself in the foot in the long-term.

BTW, I've tested my own products as well as others and those with opt-ins ALWAYS have higher conversion rates.

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Alexa Smith

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by OnlineAlready

those with opt-ins ALWAYS have higher conversion rates.

Nobody's disputing that.

That's equally true of vendors' opt-ins and affiliates' opt-ins.

Originally Posted by OnlineAlready

overall if you are a merchant you know that people won't continue to promote your product if they aren't making sales.

Overall, if you're a vendor, you have a very strong financial incentive to "skim" 10% or 20% of your affiliates' sales, though. The chances are that almost all of them won't find out, so you're taking next to no risk. If you're paying 75% commission, every sale you "skim" from an affiliate is worth 4 normal affiliate-referred sales to you, so it has a huge effect on your income. And Clickbank don't and won't and can't do anything about it, even when it's reported to them (and actually I don't blame them at all).

Either a vendor's willing to provide you on request with a sales page without his opt-in on it, or he's not. If he's not, knowing that that way you won't promote his product, just think about what he's really telling you.

I'm just saying.

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Matt MacPherson

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Nobody's disputing that.

That's equally true of vendors' opt-ins and affiliates' opt-ins.

Overall, if you're a vendor, you have a very strong financial incentive to "skim" 10% or 20% of your affiliates' sales, though. The chances are that almost all of them won't find out, so you're taking next to no risk. If you're paying 75% commission, every sale you "skim" from an affiliate is worth 4 normal affiliate-referred sales to you, so it has a huge effect on your income. And Clickbank don't and won't and can't do anything about it, even when it's reported to them (and actually I don't blame them at all).

Either a vendor's willing to provide you on request with a sales page without his opt-in on it, or he's not. If he's not, knowing that that way you won't promote his product, just think about what he's really telling you.

I'm just saying.

Something that came to mind while reading this: it would be exceedingly easy to create a PHP script that could be embedded in every order link (i.e. yoursite.com/order.php) which randomly (or at night perhaps) redirects traffic to a separate affiliate link or payment processor. This would perhaps be even easier than through an opt-in (less confusing).

Not to make you even more paranoid Alexa, but something to think about.

Cheers,
Matt

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bretski

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt MacPherson

Something that came to mind while reading this: it would be exceedingly easy to create a PHP script that could be embedded in every order link (i.e. yoursite.com/order.php) which randomly (or at night perhaps) redirects traffic to a separate affiliate link or payment processor. This would perhaps be even easier than through an opt-in (less confusing).

Not to make you even more paranoid Alexa, but something to think about.

Cheers,
Matt

Just because you're parnoid doesn't mean that they're not out to get ya!

I know that there are some scripts out there that some vendors used to use to send sales to affiliates if "affiliate = none" was the case. I think that this was one way that vendors could ensure that their %referred was always 100%.

I have also heard of vendors sending a sale or two to affiliates who had been sending them traffic in hopes that an affiliate would promote their product harder.

So, yeah...there are scripts out there too that no doubt can be used for good and evil. Sort of like hacking.

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Black Hat Cat Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Alexa Smith

Overall, if you're a vendor, you have a very strong financial incentive to "skim" 10% or 20% of your affiliates' sales, though.

Only if you're assuming every vendor is dishonest, unethical and immoral.
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bretski

12 years ago

Originally Posted by OnlineAlready

The logic for overwriting affiliate ids with your own is not only flawed by illogical. Doesn't mean some people don't do it but overall if you are a merchant you know that people won't continue to promote your product if they aren't making sales. Lack of affiliate sales also reduces your gravity/popularity ranking....it's just shooting yourself in the foot in the long-term.

BTW, I've tested my own products as well as others and those with opt-ins ALWAYS have higher conversion rates.

Then there are vendors out there that are doing things that are illogical as well as probably profitable.

I have actually called out two vendors on this and had them feign stupidity and then go change the page by removing the rogue affiliate link.

As far as products with opt-ins having higher conversion rates...nobody disputes that. The question is who gets the affiliate sale? Either I want the prospect on MY list or no list at all. I definitely don't want a prospect that I sent to a vendors site to wind up on their list.

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JesseGuthrie

12 years ago

good info in this thread.. thanks

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