How Much Success Should Someone Be Expected To Have, Before Offering Success Coaching Services?

by tpw
57 replies
I am only presenting a hypothetical situation... Read that as you like...

As a consumer of IM-related materials, how much experience do you think that a person should have successfully operating an online business, before we would expect to see those people offering success coaching services?

I know that Coaching seems to be all the rage these days...

But honestly... Would you feel cheated if you learned that your newly hired Success Coach had only a couple months experience or a couple of campaigns making money online?

I have always heard that many "teachers" teach, because doing it in the real world is too tough...

Is this what a new wave of online coaches are doing?

It reminds me of a Biblical verse that says something to the effect of, "The blind will lead the blind into the ditch..."

Is it suddenly beautiful to be able to "teach" other marketers, those things that you really don't comprehend yourself?

One-hit wonders are hitting the streets advertising their coaching services now, with other online marketers, whom I used to respect, singing the praises of the amateur coaches...

In my case, I did article marketing for a solid two years, before I felt worthy to teach others about the topic...

I believed that I had to possess the courage and conviction that what I was telling people was true...

And I believed that my courage and conviction could only arise when I had the experience and confidence to know something of value to give my audience...
Yet, now I see people with a single successful marketing campaign offering coaching services to other marketers who are struggling to make their first sale...

And they were successful compared to what measuring stick? They made more than zero dollars?

I know how I feel about this turn of events...

But I am interested in knowing your thoughts on the subject...

How much experience and success should an individual have in their online business, before you would expect to see them offering coaching services to others?

And, do you sense a diminishing respect for those who encourage the clueless to become coaches and advertise the "value" to be earned by listening to the clueless?


p.s. This post is inspired by people who should have known better...
#advertising #coaching #expected #offering #services #success
  • Profile picture of the author Billis
    I remember hearing Billy Connoly say that when he was learning to play the Banjo, he became the class teacher because he was a couple of pages ahead of everyone else in the class.

    Although I do not encourage the unsuccessful to coach, we all have something to offer, in one form or another.
    I remember Jim Rohn once said something to the effect of, "The unsuccessful should write a book or give a talk, so we will know what not to do".

    Although I have never had a lot of success online, I have often thought about coaching others from the point of view of accountability.
    Many of us do not succeed in life, because we have no one holding us accountable. We stock our computers & bookshelves with all sorts of courses and guides, but we never use them. If we became accountable to someone, then we would be more inclined to follow through on some of our investments.

    To Your Success,

    Rob
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    • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post


      As a consumer of IM-related materials, how much experience do you think that a person should have successfully operating an online business, before we would expect to see those people offering success coaching services?
      I would be fine with someone who maybe didn't have all their online stuff together yet if they had a successful run with coaching offline businesses before going online. Of course, I would want to know this persons limitations up front.

      It boils down to what it is I need help with.

      If I was looking for someone to take me to that next money level, then absolutely I'd want someone who is consistently making more than me. I would need/want them to have been able to do this for a year or more straight.
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      • Profile picture of the author sanssecret
        I think it depends on what you term as 'success'. If you haven't made anything, then someone making $50 is more successful than you.

        Plus, (not getting at anyone here) those with the most experience have usually forgotten what it's like to be a real newbie and so they often miss stuff out because they consider it a 'given' that you would know it. In this respect you're often better off with someone not too far removed from you because they still remember those little (but vitally important) factors.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bronwyn and Keith
    Hi precious

    Yes some people also make "great teachers" and others lousy teachers.

    All too often though the "real teachers" are too busy and the "hopeless ones" go on burning people.

    How do we know. Well simply put Bronwyn has been a "Teacher" for more than 40 years. Seen what a good teacher can do and the impact they can have first hand.

    Firstly, regardless of time the teacher has to have an aptitude to teach. Followed by a lesson plan that they fully understand. And, an attitude of wanting to genuinely help people.

    Regards

    Bronwyn and Keith
    Originally Posted by precious007 View Post

    Could be a month or two.

    Some people tend to be more receptive and learn in one month what other's would learn in a few years.

    I think it's not really about the time but the reputation.

    There's has to be some kind of backup behind someone that start a coaching program.

    I could teach you for example how I went from $0 to 4/5 figures a month, certainly others might be able to teach you how to make 6 figures a month .. I'm just not there yet. ;-)
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    • Profile picture of the author jointaldc
      Originally Posted by bronke13 View Post

      Hi precious

      Yes some people also make "great teachers" and others lousy teachers.

      All too often though the "real teachers" are too busy and the "hopeless ones" go on burning people.

      How do we know. Well simply put Bronwyn has been a "Teacher" for more than 40 years. Seen what a good teacher can do and the impact they can have first hand.

      Firstly, regardless of time the teacher has to have an aptitude to teach. Followed by a lesson plan that they fully understand. And, an attitude of wanting to genuinely help people.

      Regards

      Bronwyn and Keith
      Some poeple have the knowledge to be a great teacher, but don't know how to teach, whether impatience or unable to verbalize their point. Then there are people who with limited knowledge are able to teach and grow at the same time
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  • Profile picture of the author Alfred Shelver
    Like others have said to me it really depends on how honest they are about there success ... extremely successful people may charge too much. So moderately successful people could be the leg up one needs. It all boils down to honesty as far as I am concerned not over hyped BS
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  • Profile picture of the author Will Edwards
    There are two scenarios which appear to be prevalent in the IM niche: a) people teaching others how to do what they are currently doing, and, b) people attempting to teach others what they cannot do themselves.

    In my professional capacity, it is necessary to have qualified to a level above the level to which you teach and that, I believe, is what is necessary if you are looking for quality.

    Will
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    • Profile picture of the author taji
      It boils down to if the person your coaching feels like they're getting value, then it's worth it to them.
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  • Profile picture of the author JackTriggs
    It's all relative...you might only be able to set up a simple wordpress blog, but to offline businesses that might make them view you as an expert...and they'll throw money at you!
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Because they're so prevalent, I tend to get my ideas about coaching from sports.

      One thing I see time and again is that the best coaches were not always the most successful players. Mediocre players who maximized their talents through study and hard work often make the best coaches. They also tended to be team leaders, even though they weren't superstars.

      Another common factor with successful coaches is that they rarely start out as head coaches, and rarely get their first head coaching experience in the big leagues.

      So, to answer your original question, I would expect a potential coach to have enough success to demonstrate that they really understand the aspect of business they purport to coach me in. From there, there needs to be some display of the ability to transfer that understanding to someone else.

      It's kind of a Catch-22. The mark of a successful coach is successful students/clients/players. And the way to get successful coachees is to coach some.
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  • Profile picture of the author TK1
    Dale Carnegie wrote the #1 success book "how to win friends and influence people" at a time after he had absolutely no success at all, still it became one of the biggest selling success books of all time and has probably influenced millions of entrepreneurs all over the world, the same goes for robert kiyosaki who wrote rich dad, poor dad when he wasn't successful at all.

    TK
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    I've been thinking about this exact topic lately. Here's my take...

    I think beginners can teach certain topics that they know something about. For example, a beginner can teach how to blog, how to create a product, how to tweak a sales page, how to do SEO, etc.

    In other words, as long as they're upfront about the fact that they're a beginner and that they're teaching a couple concepts, no problem.

    But the coaching is something else entirely.

    Many of these "coaches" don't just teach one topic. Instead, many coaches claim they'll help you pull all the pieces together so that you can start making money online.

    Uff.

    Problem is, people who've only been marketing for a few months don't know all the pieces yet. Even if they're fast learners. Even if they've had success.

    You see, some people know how to make money. But that doesn't mean they know how to build a long-term, sustainable business. And I'm afraid some of these "coaches" are coaching their students down the wrong path.

    In other words, the strategy these coaches teach may make a few bucks today... but it could be a disaster down the road. And the coach just doesn't know that yet because he doesn't have enough business experience.

    Cheers,
    Becky
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  • Profile picture of the author Rough Outline
    If you're earning $5 per day then teach people how to earn $5 per day and so on.

    Don't fake success and deceive people.
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    • Profile picture of the author RustyF
      Originally Posted by Rough Outline Writing View Post

      If you're earning $5 per day then teach people how to earn $5 per day and so on.

      Don't fake success and deceive people.
      You know that makes a lot of sense.

      In other words, teach what you know.

      It is common for coaches to charge $1997 these days. I wouldn't want someone coaching me at those kind of prices that had not made a LOT of money online. I mean, how do they really know it works?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
    I respect you bring this up, I think lots of people teach since they cannot make money doing and only see money in teaching to make money.

    I think you should be making $100,000 online before you teach others how to make money online. Even if you make that, you still will not know a lot, there are many things I need to still learn personally.

    If you are buying coaching ask the person what they did.

    I had a guy ask me to promote his coaching program. I told him I will promote it if he can show me how to make $10,000 in a months time (I need prove it works). He said 10K thats a lot to make in a month, I was crazy. Maybe I am, but thats what I think.

    Cheers
    Mukul
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

    Is it suddenly beautiful to be able to "teach" other marketers, those things that you really don't comprehend yourself?
    I think that is really the question. Do they comprehend and fully understand the process, technique, method...well enough to teach it.

    The old saying "those who can do and those who can't teach" is more than a little misleading and an extremely simplistic view of the situation.

    Teachers get their license after studying enough to prove, by way of testing, that they are qualified. They are not asked to go out and perform in the field that they will be teaching about.

    Plenty of people are more than qualified to teach without "being successful" or having spent a lot of time performing.

    This past Summer, I did a landscape job in our backyard and it involved changing over the sprinkler system to a drip system. I had to do a lot of work with the PVC that I had never done before.

    After reading and watching a few videos, I was able to go out and do the work and was successful at it and now have a huge working drip system.

    Now at what point in the process did my expertise come into existence?
    After completing the project or after learning how to do it?

    I knew how to do it before I did it, but doing it just confirmed, or tested my knowledge about the subject.

    Now that I know how to do it, does that mean that I want to do it again? No.
    Could I teach you how to do it? Yes.

    Would you trust me to teach you how to do it based on my experience?

    If you didn't know anything about PVC work, how would you know that I am successful enough to teach you? Because I just told you that I was and it's based on how much you trust me.

    It all comes back to the relationship with the person who is going to coach you.
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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
      I think you are basing this thread on a misconception.

      Why have you assumed a correlation between business success and teaching ability?

      Let's pretend for the sake of argument that all the people selling a teaching product in IM really are making the money they claim they are.

      Of the many "teachers/coaches" I've seen doing IM products over the last few years I'd rate only about 10%-15% of them as competent educators.

      Maybe that's why the apocryphal 95% of IMers fail - over 85% of their teachers are crap.


      Martin
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  • Profile picture of the author Shannon Herod
    It comes down to integrity. If you do not know what you're doing you have no business teaching other people how to do it.

    Unfortunately, it runs rampant in this market and especially in this forum. But, it comes down to the people teaching what to do. Just as you said... "the blind leading the blind."

    People have no clue what they are doing and will teach other people to come into this forum and start a WSO teaching other people how to make money online. Absolutely atrocious.

    There is one very popular WSO producer that is proud of the fact that he made his first big money selling a WSO about how to make money.

    The funny thing about it is people love this dude and sing his praises. But, if you read his posts and watches sales videos he is blatantly clear about the fact how he makes all his money from WSO's. Even goes into his PayPal account and shows how if he is not running WSO's he does not make any money.

    I digress... To answer your question you need to have a solid grasp when running a business online. And by a solid grasp, I mean you need to be successfully making money outside of teaching people how to make money.

    Talk soon,

    Shannon Herod
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  • Profile picture of the author excuzemee
    Lots of opinions...

    My Taichi teacher had me teaching his class before i knew what i was really doing. He would step in once and a while to correct, or if i got stuck somewhere. I tell you this: I did not feel that I was qualifies enough to teach. Once day I told him this.

    You know what he told me? "You will learn faster by trying to teach someone else." the teaching part was part of my education of LEARNING. and you know what else? people were paying money to have me teach them.

    One of the guys that I had taught went on to teach private one on ones that I thought was high priced... but our teacher actually told him to do it... and my student did.

    Put this into perpective as well: in the first year, I was better than students that had been with him for three years. To this day, I visit once and awhile I visit him at his school, (have not practiced it for over 20 years) and i am still better than students he has had for over 10 years.

    Teaching is part of learning, but if the teacher knows more than you... then the teacher knows more than you.

    How much experience should a teacher have? Enough where you are learning something new.

    How does this relate to IM? You get to hone your skills and get paid at the same time.

    If you think it's a good deal, then it's a good deal. If you think it's a bad deal... then it's a bad deal.

    Either way, you're right.
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    • Profile picture of the author King Shiloh
      Banned
      Originally Posted by LD Carter View Post

      You can't learn something you don't know by trying to teach it. Only thing you would be doing is teaching wrong information.
      That is not teaching, it is called cheating...Such a self-proclaimed teacher is a cheat - he can't teach anybody any good thing. He is cheating himself and also cheating others who care to listen
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    • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
      Originally Posted by LD Carter View Post

      You can't learn something you don't know by trying to teach it. Only thing you would be doing is teaching wrong information.
      Wrong or rehashed information.

      If you teach to learn. Look at IM business. 9 out of 10 people who you purchased from 2 or 3 years ago are not teaching anymore, why? Those are the ones who did what you did above and were not building a business, only making short term money.

      The real guys can have a conversion and share expereince (and it is needed in this industry)

      The one who learn by teaching - can only dictate what someone else told them.

      Example - Anyone who tells you today that you can use You Tube to get to the top of google is giving you outdated information or something they heard. As that news is years old.

      Someone who has experience would not tell you this, since they tested it and know it does not work.

      That is what being a real can give you.

      Cheers
      Mukul
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  • Profile picture of the author cashcow
    Yes, it does seem like coaching is the new "thing" here and anyone can step up to the plate and do it.

    If I was going to hire a coach, I would want to know that they had experience in that area and I would want to see some sort of track record.

    If the coaching was claiming to teach me how to make money, then I would hope the person would provide proof of how they make money with the same technique or process and certainly, I would want to know it was a sustainable method and see that they have been doing it for some time.

    Now the really scary thing here is that, according to the thread here - http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...osition-2.html - a lot of people feel that coaching should not be refundable.

    But what if the coach is teaching a method they really are not "qualified" to teach. Let's say they put in the time to teach you this method - a method they have never actually done themselves - and it doesn't work for you? Should you not get your money back because they put in the time?

    Now, don't get me wrong, I know there are a few experienced warriors that are offering coaching and I am certain it is well worth the money for their students but personally, I don't see how anyone who hasn't studied IM for a year or more would know all the nuances and aspects of IM that would enable them to properly teach. But that's just me ... I''m a slow learner.

    Lee
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  • Profile picture of the author aandersen
    Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

    I have noticed some marketers here who clearly were not successful before joining, judging by all the noob questions that they ask. Within 2 to 3 months they are offering coaching which I think is ridiculous.
    The scary thing is that some of them are doing that because their coach told them to
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
      Here's a recipe for disaster...have a university professor with a PHD in business who's never made a dime in the business world teach a student who likewise never makes a dime in the business world with their MBA but goes on to be elected to an office where they write legislation overseeing the business community.

      The repercussions of that cycle tend to point to the fallacy of valuing knowledge on the same level as experience.

      It's a little similar to folks who do keyword research on the same keywords that everybody else does keyword research on and they can't understand why with such a massive search volume they can't get any traffic to their website.

      There's a reason incestuous behavior is an inward spiraling circle that tends to self destruct over time. That reason is the lack of outside influence to keep things on the right path. A teacher with no experience whose students themselves become teachers having very little real world experience tends to skew the folklore of the field to the point where anybody will believe anything.

      Give me somebody's who's success has left footprints I can follow in. If that person happens to be one chapter ahead of me but has been able to make bank on the book so far, I'll follow. 'Hearsay' isn't allowed in a court of law for good reason, and teachers whose sole experience is mastering the art of hearsay tend to dilute the knowledge base over time which can lead to long term negative consequences. Reread the first paragraph.

      ~Bill
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  • Profile picture of the author jazbo
    I think quite a few of you are confusing coaching with teaching.

    You do not need to have "done it" to "coach it".

    Why?

    Most people's issues relate more to confusion, lack of clarity and multiple choices to be made, mixed usually with a need for encouragement. A great coach will guide them to making their own decision based on their own best judgement after going through the possibilities.

    I had exactly the same thing in a course I was running once. It was a group of line managers and we were helping them to better use the company appraisal process, to help them to develop people through that process.

    The managers said they could not guide people when they did not know their jobs inside out. How could they set targets and suggest things to develop people within a job they only had a broad appreciation of?

    So I asked for two of them who could not juggle to step up.

    I then told one that they would coach the other on learning to juggle, through helping them focus, encouraging them and helping them where they spotted something they could do better to improve the juggling.

    I then got another person who could not juggle, and put them in another room on their own.

    both had 15 minutes to learn how to juggle 3 balls.

    Who do you think was the best? The person working in isolation, or the person who had support, who had someone to talk it through with as they went, someone to watch their mistakes and suggest different ideas for improvement?

    Yep you guessed it.

    So no, you do not have to have "done it" to coach someone to "do it".

    I am not suggesting a coach should have no experienvce of course, but saying stuff like a coach should be able to show a proven track record in their own success with a specific method is missing the point, and means you might not pick the best coach because you are focused on the wrong performance metric.
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    • Profile picture of the author cashcow
      Originally Posted by jazbo View Post

      I think quite a few of you are confusing coaching with teaching.

      You do not need to have "done it" to "coach it".

      Why?

      Most people's issues relate more to confusion, lack of clarity and multiple choices to be made, mixed usually with a need for encouragement. A great coach will guide them to making their own decision based on their own best judgement after going through the possibilities.

      I had exactly the same thing in a course I was running once. It was a group of line managers and we were helping them to better use the company appraisal process, to help them to develop people through that process.

      The managers said they could not guide people when they did not know their jobs inside out. How could they set targets and suggest things to develop people within a job they only had a broad appreciation of?

      So I asked for two of them who could not juggle to step up.

      I then told one that they would coach the other on learning to juggle, through helping them focus, encouraging them and helping them where they spotted something they could do better to improve the juggling.

      I then got another person who could not juggle, and put them in another room on their own.

      both had 15 minutes to learn how to juggle 3 balls.

      Who do you think was the best? The person working in isolation, or the person who had support, who had someone to talk it through with as they went, someone to watch their mistakes and suggest different ideas for improvement?

      Yep you guessed it.

      So no, you do not have to have "done it" to coach someone to "do it".

      I am not suggesting a coach should have no experienvce of course, but saying stuff like a coach should be able to show a proven track record in their own success with a specific method is missing the point, and means you might not pick the best coach because you are focused on the wrong performance metric.
      I agree with you here, and in this case (as it applies to the IM world) I think you would want the people to have experience in motivating people, in getting them through their roadblocks so they can get to the next level etc....

      I don't really know if the juggling example could really be applied to IM though because it's not as simple as just dropping a ball. If the person coaching had no experience, how would they know when the other person made a mistake? How would they know to tell them they were going in the wrong direction?

      Probably in the context of the OP, the person would have to have IM experience because the people they would be coaching would have a lot of IM questions they would need to answer.

      I think the hypothetical problem though is that the people offering coaching don't have experience with either.

      Lee
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    • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
      Originally Posted by jazbo View Post

      I think quite a few of you are confusing coaching with teaching.

      You do not need to have "done it" to "coach it".

      Why?

      Most people's issues relate more to confusion, lack of clarity and multiple choices to be made, mixed usually with a need for encouragement. A great coach will guide them to making their own decision based on their own best judgement after going through the possibilities.

      I had exactly the same thing in a course I was running once. It was a group of line managers and we were helping them to better use the company appraisal process, to help them to develop people through that process.

      The managers said they could not guide people when they did not know their jobs inside out. How could they set targets and suggest things to develop people within a job they only had a broad appreciation of?

      So I asked for two of them who could not juggle to step up.

      I then told one that they would coach the other on learning to juggle, through helping them focus, encouraging them and helping them where they spotted something they could do better to improve the juggling.

      I then got another person who could not juggle, and put them in another room on their own.

      both had 15 minutes to learn how to juggle 3 balls.

      Who do you think was the best? The person working in isolation, or the person who had support, who had someone to talk it through with as they went, someone to watch their mistakes and suggest different ideas for improvement?

      Yep you guessed it.

      So no, you do not have to have "done it" to coach someone to "do it".

      I am not suggesting a coach should have no experienvce of course, but saying stuff like a coach should be able to show a proven track record in their own success with a specific method is missing the point, and means you might not pick the best coach because you are focused on the wrong performance metric.
      Great point

      2 perspectives (Generic vs specific)

      If you teach how to make money online - You should be making money outside teaching how to make money.

      If you teach traffic generation - which I do. I do not have experience in every type of website or industry out there. I do have results in several markets and developed what works for me, what gets me 80,000 visitors every month.

      So I would say if you have no experience in juggling asks and dealing with it. You should not be teaching.

      If you have experience dealing with cashier at a restaurant and process that work for them to juggle, you can teach line managers.

      The issue here is that people are teaching make money, who have not made money outside the IM Niche.


      Cheers,
      Mukul
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  • Profile picture of the author nigelchua
    Hi TPW, i think you're talking about teachers and coaches who want to teach others how to make money online right, and not just about anything right? Mmm, i think with a measure of success, most would be excited not just about the feeling of "I did it!" but more of also, "now that I did it, let me make more with this experience" and there is nothing wrong with wanting to teach another how to achieve what one has achieved.

    The thing is when the newly-acclaimed with some measure of success overclaims or overpromises, and underdelivers, that is the issue. However, that is not to say that there will be the common occurrences that some newbie might really grow under a $50 success "self-proclaimed guru". Hahaha.

    Regardless, teaching is a good option to go, but the issue of being a good trainer/coach with results needs to be monitored. Credibility, reliability needs to be tested.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
    I think this industry can be one of the most "incestuous" of them all... A guy has a little success selling IM information and then uses that success to hold himself out as a marketing expert who should be able to coach someone... Show me you can do it OUTSIDE the IM niche and duplicate your success in several niches - then I will listen to you. If your only success is from peddling WSO's then I'm not impressed.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    IF... and it's a significantly qualifying if... you can genuinely help somebody
    get onto the faster track and achieve a specific measurable goal they're after,
    then I have no qualms whatsoever about even a relative newcomer offering
    coaching to others.

    On the other hand, if you view coaching as merely an easier and faster path
    to lining your own pockets and your "students" are simply too inexperienced
    to know the difference... well, that pretty much makes you a douchebag.

    Brian
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    • Profile picture of the author nemock
      Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

      IF... and it's a significantly qualifying if... you can genuinely help somebody
      get onto the faster track and achieve a specific measurable goal they're after,
      then I have no qualms whatsoever about even a relative newcomer offering
      coaching to others.

      On the other hand, if you view coaching as merely an easier and faster path
      to lining your own pockets and your "students" are simply too inexperienced
      to know the difference... well, that pretty much makes you a douchebag.

      Brian
      Yes indeed. Lots of life coaches still have "issues," and coaches from just about any other niche aren't going to be paragons of perfection. Any that try to pass themselves off as inflallable are frauds. Be authentic with your client. If you're really new, but you think you can help them with their goals, be up front and work towards those goals with your client. Turn that situation into a success and tada! you've got a great recommendation for the next client.
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      • Profile picture of the author Crew Chief
        I am a firm believer that one cannot teach what they do not know. That's why in certain fields one IS NOT allowed to teach/coach/instruct/mentor until they have been certified, have specific training and in some cases they must have certain degrees and verifiable experience.

        That said, in Internet Marketing, the mantra has become the exact same mantra proudly extolled by hoards of MLMers and NMers who never made a dime peddling: vitamins, herbs, no run pantyhose, water purifiers, COQ10, Mother of Pearls, MonaVie, cosmetics, dental plans, etc., etc., and that mantra is:

        Fake it until you make it!

        Part of the faking process is the Johnny come lately IM Coaches convincing noobs that they know what the heck they are talking about when they don't, making themselves appear to be experts when they are not and the pinnacle of their deception is getting to the point where they are charging monthly membership fees for their wobbly information.

        I've lost count of the number of people who have come on this forum asserting themselves as IM experts, IM teachers and IM coaches but their words quickly prove they are frauds. Case in point, view this short thread of someone apparently striving to become an IM coach/mentor: http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...e-back-wf.html

        To the noob, individuals like this sound like they know what they are talking about; but to a seasoned IMer, their words raise up some serious alarms. Can individuals like this launch successful IM coaching programs? Absolutely! They can and they do rake in some nice incomes.

        But remember this....

        These types of individuals measure THEIR success by THEIR income that THEY generate from THEIR membership base and the products THEY hawk. THEY could care less about the success of THEIR students.

        Conversely, a true coach measures his or her success by the successes of their students. That's why most true coaches put potential students through a rigorous pre-qualification process; they want to insure that they have a good "FIT!"

        Some people say they want a mentor/coach but even if they had Donald Trump coaching/mentoring them, they would fail miserably because they are either: lazy, unmotivated, undisciplined, uncommitted, easily distracted and/or they are not willing to sacrifice and do what it takes to succeed.

        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        How much experience and success should an individual have in their online business, before you would expect to see them offering coaching services to others?
        My rules of thumb is this; DO NOT coach what you do not know and have not done!

        But the truth is, most noobs will latch on to, follow and pay a totally inexperienced greenhorn to coach them, if he or she uses any of the glamorous IM buzzwords on their sales page.

        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        And, do you sense a diminishing respect for those who encourage the clueless to become coaches and advertise the "value" to be earned by listening to the clueless?
        My answer is, I'd like to put those people through a Full Metal Jacket Military Blanket party. Did that answer your question?

        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        p.s. This post is inspired by people who should have known better...
        That's the sad part; they SHOULD have known better...

        [shaking head] thinking about the gentlemen who recently lost $2800.00 in coaching program that lasted all of 49.50 hours after he paid. His wife warned him, others warned him but he got burned by a IM coach who was faking it till he made it.

        Giles, the Crew Chief
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by Kevin_Hutto View Post

          I think this industry can be one of the most "incestuous" of them all... A guy has a little success selling IM information and then uses that success to hold himself out as a marketing expert who should be able to coach someone... Show me you can do it OUTSIDE the IM niche and duplicate your success in several niches - then I will listen to you. If your only success is from peddling WSO's then I'm not impressed.
          Better yet, show me that one or more people you have coached have accomplished what you coach, after you coached them.

          After all, the 'coach' may be an idiot savante who doesn't even know why he's succeeding. If I'm going to invest any significant time, money or effort in coaching, I want some confidence that the people being coached succeed.

          Giles, if you need any help with that blanket party, let me know...
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        • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
          Originally Posted by Crew Chief View Post


          But remember this....

          These types of individuals measure THEIR success by THEIR income that THEY generate from THEIR membership base and the products THEY hawk. THEY could care less about the success of THEIR students.
          That reminds me of the computer gamers who I used to find that would say "my mate is amazing, he beats everyone - he'll whoop you at Quake" and then I'd run rings around the guy because he only ever played with his friends - where I played online only against other real people and got whooped so much I learned to be 'actually' good.

          With IM, some people come to the forums and think "I know most of what these people are talking about - that makes me an expert"
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  • Profile picture of the author shern20
    Be honest with yourself and with your potential clients. if you are making $100 a month then tell people up front you can teach them to make $100 a month as long as you are confident you can deliver a lot of value to teach and give your customers.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zabrina
    If you're teaching little, technical things -- how to publish a book on Amazon, how to use a service effectively, etc -- I don't see a problem with not having more than a few months' experience.

    If you're purporting to teach it as a long-term system for making money, that's where I see the problem.

    Someone with two months' experience can whip up a coaching program to teach someone how to install Wordpress fast or publish books on Amazon, but if they're coaching people to make six figures doing either and they haven't themselves (or haven't for more than a month or two), there's an issue.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    I know a lot of people would argue that if you know more than someone else then 'relatively' - you're an expert and it's this sort of thinking that causes the confusion.

    If you're going to learn from someone else you need to be clear about what you're expecting to learn and why.

    You only have to look at the WSO section to see plenty of people selling their way of doing things - the issue is - most of them haven't made more than a few hundred dollars (if that) doing it, so while their information may be technically correct - the fact that they have no actual experience of it getting the results they're trying to convince you are possible is where the question comes in.

    It's all a matter of perspective - I've seen people happily paying over $10,000 for someone to tell them the same tstuff they can read here, but the person is a 'guru' so they're happy to do it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      The person doing the coaching should have been able to achieve something more than once. And being successful in the WSO forum is not a qualification to be able to coach, in my opinion.

      I know of some that are offering coaching that their main source of income is the WSO section, even though their product line covers several different areas.

      But...

      Who's at fault really? The coach or the people paying for coaching without doing their due diligence?

      It really isn't that difficult to tell that many of these so-called "coaches" shouldn't be doing it. You just have to use some common sense and investigate them a bit.

      I agree that it's unethical of some to offer "coaching" services but I also think people need to use the brain they were given and a bit of common sense.

      I've seen some of the same people who ask 50 questions before buying a $7 WSO, turn around and pay a lot more money for coaching without asking a bunch of questions.

      If you pay someone to coach you without seeing if any of their students are seeing success, then that's your own stupidity. Doesn't make it right for that person to offer coaching but it also doesn't absolve people who pay without using their head, either.

      Tina
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by Zabrina View Post

      Someone with two months' experience can whip up a coaching program to teach someone how to install Wordpress fast or publish books on Amazon, but if they're coaching people to make six figures doing either and they haven't themselves (or haven't for more than a month or two), there's an issue.
      In my mind, there's a difference between teaching something specific and ongoing coaching. I have no bone to pick with someone running a clinic on a specific skill, but how many specific skills require ongoing hand-holding? Once you teach me how to set up WP or format a book for Amazon, why do I need ongoing 'coaching' with a continuity program attached?

      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      You only have to look at the WSO section to see plenty of people selling their way of doing things - the issue is - most of them haven't made more than a few hundred dollars (if that) doing it, so while their information may be technically correct - the fact that they have no actual experience of it getting the results they're trying to convince you are possible is where the question comes in.
      Yes, it's amazing how 'I got lucky with an article and made $500 yesterday' becomes 'How to make $3,500 every week with article marketing'... :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author Folusho Orokunle
    I started coaching when people started asking me to. But I also enjoy teaching. There are many companies out there that go out and create the demand but have no interest in really helping people. They just want the money.
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  • Profile picture of the author BlogBoom
    I've learned from people who have been mastered a particular technique in a couple months. I've also learned from mentors who have long been considered the best in their field. As long as I learn something that helps me, I'm happy.
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  • Profile picture of the author thomarv29
    I have personally made Millions of dollars in Internet related companies that we have created and then sold to investors, however, i really believe that most "Guru's" out there really have more knowlege of how to hype themselves rather than valuable, actionable information that isnt already available for free somewhere else online. A friend of mine made millions using someone elses systems and just re-branding them as his own... His name? Tommy Vu.
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    Im president of White Label Links Inc. A leading SEO and Internet marketing company based out of Jacksonville FL

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  • Profile picture of the author ncmedia
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author djemerald
      I think it depends on whether you are teaching single steps that you may have learned well or if you are trying to do a ful scale coaching program. I know that some of the individual modules of internet marketing I have taken training on can be better explained in more creative and innovative ways . I would feel qualified to teach these same things in a diffrent way. though I wouldnt feel qualified teach a full fledged internet marketing course.
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      "professional writing priced right "
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    • Profile picture of the author unclepennybags
      Definitely an interesting topic.

      Before I answer though I just want to say that isn't that what we as internet marketers are which are teachers? That is what our sites and promotions have which are our teachings of a certain topic whether it be how to train dogs or how to build muscle.

      Any successful marketer already knows how to teach because they learned through another topic am I right? It would be hard to sell without good honest content that teaches people about whatever topic they are interested in.

      Anyway to answer the question I think it all depends. Some people learn faster than others. If you take a look at the top selling IM products on clickbank though the IMers almost never mention how long they have been in the business.

      This is true simply because it does not matter. You could be in it for a couple of weeks and some how got success and then show it off to your potential customers. If you went to a sales page with yet another video of the IMer logging into to their accounts to show you their earnings screenshot then that is really all it takes for the customers to want in as long as they have made a good deal and "appear" to be an authority.

      So the real question is how long does it take to make money online and then be comfortable enough to teach others how. That is basically how long it takes for teachers to become money making teachers. It would be very hard for an IMer to start off in the make money online niche for this reason.

      They have no credentials and have never been there or done that. But they can succeed if they work extra hard to get good content by learning elsewhere and then giving away free stuff to build an email list. So basically for those who are willing to put in the extra work and start out in the make money online niche do not need any previous success to teach if they are that good with their content and that honest. They never have to mention they have made money.

      I guarantee someone could succeed this way even though it would be harder to presell someone because there is nothing people want to see more nowadays than cold hard proof.
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  • Profile picture of the author phpnetpro
    I would probably be mad if I found out that I paid someone to be my coach who had only been doing it for a few months or even a year, despite their level of success.

    I do think it is important for the person to have success and a lot of time and experience under their belt before they even think about offering their coaching services.

    Just as an example, I have been making a full time living working online for more than 15 years now. I've made single websites that gross over $15,000 every single month!
    All of this and I just started offering my coaching services within the past couple of months.
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by phpnetpro View Post

      I do think it is important for the person to have success and a lot of time and experience under their belt before they even think about offering their coaching services.
      I don't care how long you've been doing this or how successful you've been.

      A coach is supposed to help you get results.

      That's all that matters. If your coach isn't giving you results, he's a crappy coach. And if he is, he's a good coach.

      Everything else is commentary.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Rus Sells
        In short,

        Grasshopper, until you can snatch the pebble from my hand you need a coach. And as long as you can't snatch the pebble from my hand I deserve to be your coach! :p

        PS: Some might argue but one of the greatest life teachers went about doing and then teaching. That was Christ, and I think his perspective on doing first then teaching is exactly how to coach.



        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        I don't care how long you've been doing this or how successful you've been.

        A coach is supposed to help you get results.

        That's all that matters. If your coach isn't giving you results, he's a crappy coach. And if he is, he's a good coach.

        Everything else is commentary.
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  • Profile picture of the author entrepreneurjay
    As long as they make a full time income online and you would benefit from them in one way or another then I say you can be a good coach.

    I do not think it should have a price tag in terms of how much the coach makes persay but how well he teaches.

    But if they can teach you to make a $100 bucks a week and your not making anything I think it would be worth it regardless even if the coach only makes a couple hundred a week. Then you just upscale everything.

    They would just have to charge a much lesser price. Then a Super affiliate teaching you that makes millions of dollars a year, then that mentoring is gonna cost you big time! If you can even get it.

    It all depends on how much you want to get out of it.
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    • Profile picture of the author drmani
      How Much Success Should Someone Be Expected To Have, Before Offering Success Coaching Services?
      More "success" than the people you are coaching.

      AT LEAST as much "success" as you're promising to teach them to achieve.

      It's more a function of how well you can TEACH than how much you ACHIEVED, imho.

      That's why a good "teacher" must be evaluated on the performance of her student, not on her own accomplishments - because those are worthless to the student who paid to learn how to do it!

      With that said, and after reading some comments on this thread, I have a couple of things to add.

      First, a favorite quote:

      "One who learns from one who is learning drinks from a running stream. One who learns from one who has already learned drinks from a stagnant pond."

      So, there's something to be said for a student to be a teacher!

      Next, everything is relative - including experience/expertise.

      Nobody is a "newbie" to EVERYTHING - except a newborn baby. Which means a newbie to THIS forum may well be an EXPERT at something. And teaching that "something" to others can only be beneficial... even if someone more expert at that exists!

      If everyone were to learn ONLY from the top experts, no one but Warren Buffett should be teaching stock investing, and all heart surgeons should have been trained by Denton Cooley!

      All success
      Dr.Mani
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by entrepreneurjay View Post

      As long as they make a full time income online and you would benefit from them in one way or another then I say you can be a good coach.
      But that's completely subjective. Some people think $1500 a month is a full-time income but that wouldn't pay my bills.

      I think the amount people are making is confusing the issue - because the way they make money may not be the way you want to run your business and they may have exactly the right guidance you need but not be using it in their own business because it's not the way they want to work.

      There are way too many variables to make any concrete statements about these things.

      There are people charging thousands of dollars for IM coaching who I consider idiots that I would have nothing to do with, and people not making any decent money with I love to learn from and who just don't care to do some of the things they know how to.

      God knows how much money I've left on the table because I don't have the same mindset as the people using some strategies - like mining the WSO section for your income. Some members here make their income from selling stuff in the WSO section, but it's all just rehashed PLR material and they just treat it like it's Craigslist or something - just an advertising platform and a numbers game. I could do that but to me it would be an insult to this place and the value it has.

      I've seen IMers stand on stage and basically say "9 months ago I didn't know anything about IM and now I'm a guru - I have a book and everything, so join my coaching program". They've never been a proper marketer in their life and they didn't even do most of the things that are in their book - but they're now marketing themselves as a "fast moving, action-taking" expert who can make you get results quickly, and I've seen people line up to join their program.

      Is that wrong? only the people paying them can say.

      It's all relative.

      It's very easy to get your own version of what's right and wrong so intrenched that you see other people 'doing it wrong' or selling things which you don't give value - but if you're not buying it there's no point hypothesizing either.

      We all like to talk about this stuff but I think when it comes down to it Caliban's answer is spot on - if someone is selling an expectation and delivering on it for their customers - nothing else really matters.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
        1. 2 houses on 2 hills in 2 different communities
        2. 79% conversion rate on every email and visitor
        3. A double opt-in list of at least 56,443 who have been subscribed for at least 6 months
        4. 4 ebooks, 1 ongoing membership site, 1 physical book, 2 monthly teleseminars
        5. At least 2 of these 3 cars paid for (no loan left): Mercedes, BMW, Porsche
        6. Successful (see above for criteria) sites and products in at least 4 different niches that includes at least 2 of the following: Teaching parrots to talk, Potty training, Overhauling car engines, Life Insurance, and/or Using MS Word 2010.
        7. Independent CPA audits with full results of all IRS returns for the last 3 years as well as a letter dated yesterday from a bank on their letterhead stating the bank balance for the past 3 years.

        Seriously a couple points:

        1. Success is relative. Experience is relative. Money in the bank isn't going to be audited. Cars can be borrowed. The point is there is no real proof.

        2. In the real world as has been mentioned a couple times, business coaches don't "teach". They coach.

        Coaching schools, by and large, teach coaches to never TELL someone how to do much of anything but by asking the right questions and giving gentle advice and nudges in the right direction, letting the client discover their OWN answers how to make a gazillion dollars by lunch on Friday or fix their life or turn their company around.

        Those schools say that is why someone without an MBA who has never worked as the CEO of anything except John Jones Coach, Inc. can successfully coach the CEOs of huge corporations.

        The part of most people's lives and businesses that suck aren't because they don't have the newest doodad or the newest Google secret or the top secret shopping cart or the autoblogger or the (fill in the thing of the day).

        Most if not all of the technical information can be easily found and followed such as: how do I change my Word document into a PDF, which autoresponder is best, what's a good format for sending out emailed newsletters, what are the basics of writing an ebook, how can I pick a good niche, etc. Most people already know all that if they are honest.

        Why then do they still have problems?

        It's because they don't get started, be committed, stay focused, be disciplined, do the tasks that need doing when they are supposed to do them, etc.

        Think about your own success or lack thereof and you'll know if you are honest, most likely, this is true.

        Helping others acquire those skills doesn't require a degree, a huge bank account, a bunch of cars, or a bunch of products, etc. Most moms with teenagers are already experts at that.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    Just a heads up, I'm now accepting students in my new program "Accomplishment Zero: The Art of Slacking, Reading Forums and Getting Nothing Done"

    I am a master at this and can coach you to success and reaching your goals of accomplishing nothing.

    OH yeah, back on track...

    It's really about the individual knowing what they are trying to teach.

    I don't necessarily expect a IM coach to have earned a million online any more than I expect an NFL coach to have been a Pro Bowl player... but I would expect them to know what they are talking about.

    I don't think the xfactor guy is a millionaire but I do think he could teach somebody how to make money online. I can't say the same for many of the wannabe guru's wandering around these parts.

    The worst of the so-called coaches who have to ask others here how to do their jobs.

    Anything to make a buck I guess.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dwight Anthony
    I think they really should have at least measurable and consistent success with what they are teaching at least.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    Before I answer though I just want to say that isn't that what we as internet marketers are which are teachers?
    Nope... I sell things and make money. I have zero interest in teaching anybody anything.

    Any successful marketer already knows how to teach because they learned through another topic am I right?
    Nope, any ding dong can sign up for an affiliate program, buy scrapbox and go nuts until they are rich. This doesn't mean they can teach or coach somebody else to success and their IM knowledge isn't going to run very deep.
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