I Don't Want to See this Become the Norm

15 years ago

I have to agree with you. I'm no copywriter, but I'm a good writer and a good proofreader, and my eyeballs come to a screeching halt on really bad mistakes. That just ruins the whole site for me.

"They can't spell? They are putting apostrophes on their plurals and leaving them off possessives?"

I'm outta there. A typo here and there I can deal with (we all make mistakes); a site full of mistakes is another matter entirely. (And, like you, I've seen far too many of those.)

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sinboutkaska

15 years ago

Originally Posted by traces2757

I am a writer and an editor. It is how I make most of my living (so far). Though I make mistakes like anyone else, I try my best to to 'do' my best, especially when it comes to my craft.

Over the past couple of months, as I have been doing Internet marketing research, I have read through a lot of PDF files; some relatively short and some e-book length. I have studied people's websites to see how they are designing them and what the content looks like. I've read a lot of blogs written by Internet marketers. I have read marketing articles submitted to article directories. Although this by no means includes everything I have read, I have seen one theme pop up continuously: spelling, grammar, and punctuation mistakes.

I hate to see this become so acceptable. I realize that for many people writing and all that goes with it is not a strength--just like for me geometry is not a strength--but that doesn't mean that doing it well shouldn't be important. In the haste to get that sales letter or press release out, or to get that e-book finished or those articles submitted, proofreading and editing is often cut from the process. It shouldn't be. Trust me.

If writing is not your strong suit, let someone else proofread and edit your content before you call it finished. When your content is written well, you gain more credibility. When you gain more credibility, you gain more trust from your readers. If the writing seems hasty and sloppy, the reader may conclude that what you are writing about is not that important to you. If it's not important to you, why should it be important to them?

Just my two cents, and I'm sure some will disagree.

Hello Traces,

I actually agree with you! It is important to check and make sure the quality is up to scratch on articles and published work. Impression is everything and it does count and adds to your creditibility. From experience well written articles perform much better than poor ones!

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Sin Boutkaska

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Tracy,

In the haste to get that sales letter or press release out, or to get that e-book finished or those articles submitted, proofreading and editing is often cut from the process. It shouldn't be. Trust me.

On what should we base this requested trust?

I'm a pretty fair writer, by most accounts. I can guarantee you that, if you look with a Wombat's eye, you'll find a significant number of grammar violations in pretty much anything I write.

Few typos, and none (or almost none) of the "they're/there/their" or punctuation kinds of errors. But lots of rules broken nonetheless. This is true of my sales copy as well as my content.

But it works.

I commend to your attention, "The Wombat's Tale."

You may find it enlightening.

Paul

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jackbayon

15 years ago

If that is so common, look at it as a business chance. Maybe a PDF autospelling corrector, or a Grammar Blog (n_o).

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traces2757 15 years ago

Originally Posted by jackbayon

If that is so common, look at it as a business chance. Maybe a PDF autospelling corrector, or a Grammar Blog (n_o).

Nice IM thinking! I believe that's worth some consideration.
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Norma Holt

15 years ago

Tracy you have hit the nail on the head with this one. The other place where the errors grate with me is in emails that people send out. There is no consideration for the eyes at all. I like to see them composed so that the wording is to the left and no more than a third across the page. The color schemes that some use to dress up the emails are also a pain. If the wording is good then why mess it up.

God bless

Norma

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Killer Joe

15 years ago

I have to agree sloppiness is a credibility killer. And yea, we're all guilty of this to some degree. Some times it amazes me how my brain can just take the day off when I'm writing.

Here's a little tip that I use when I'm writing and a spell check function isn't handy (like on this forum). Call it Spell Check For Dummies 101.

Before I begin writing I open up another tab in my browser and set it the Google home page. Then when I type a word I'm not sure that I spelled correctly I will copy and paste that word into Google.

If I did misspell the word Google will suggest the correct spelling of the word. Then it's just a matter of clicking on the link that Google suggested and copy/paste the correct spelling into the copy I just wrote. The word in the copy stays highlighted (blue) so this whole process is fairly simple.

This isn't a cure for all the mistakes I make when I write, but it sure helps disguise what an idiot I am. Some times anyway...

KJ

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Leanne King

15 years ago

Often the spell check button seems way to hard to find for some! Although that really won't do you that much good unless you are a good speller in the first place. That's why if you know that is your weakness it would be good business to have your articles/ebooks proofread by a professional and edited. A few dollars spent will improve the quality for your visitors and readers no end.

Leanne

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Rob Howard

15 years ago

[DELETED]

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traces2757

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ccmusicman

I agree with you to some extent.

I think things should look professional. But I don't think that people need to obsess over. Action is more important that perfectionist thinking. If people get caught up in "Is this perfect?" then they get the dreaded over analysis paralysis.

I make mistakes in writing. I try to correct them when I catch it, and I have people look over my professionally written stuff (websites, sales letters, not blogs or emails) and thats about it.

Most people don't give a hoot about proper grammar. Just as long as it looks acceptable, a majority of people won't even notice, unless your niche is the English/Grammar/Professional writing niche! lol

Rob

I'm not talking about using grammar that makes you sound like you come from upper-crust society; I am talking about grammar, spelling, and punctuation that make your words easy to read and understand. Conversational, confident writing flows easily, making it so that the reader isn't reading in fits and starts because he or she has to stop occasionally to try to figure out what you're trying to say.

I also realize that as a writer and editor I catch more mistakes. But there is a reason that there are writing rules. It is to make writing a better experience for the reader.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Tracy,

there is a reason that there are writing rules. It is to make writing a better experience for the reader.

[voice="computer" mode="Dalek"]Error. Error. That does not compute.[/voice]

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

The function of grammar is to ensure clarity of communication. Style is the set of suggestions (not rules) that is intended to affect and enhance the reading experience.

Nitpicky? Maybe. But it's a critical distinction that a writer needs to grasp in order to avoid the Wombat Trap.

Paul

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traces2757

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Tracy,[voice="computer" mode="Dalek"]Error. Error. That does not compute.[/voice]

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

The function of grammar is to ensure clarity of communication. Style is the set of suggestions (not rules) that is intended to affect and enhance the reading experience.

Nitpicky? Maybe. But it's a critical distinction that a writer needs to grasp in order to avoid the Wombat Trap.

Paul

Alright, I agree that I worded that poorly. What I am really afraid of doing while posting in this thread is making a glaring spelling, grammar, or punctuation error!

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Killer Joe

15 years ago

"Alright, I agree that I worded that poorly. What I am really afraid of doing while posting in this thread is making a glaring spelling, grammar, or punctuation error!"

I wouldn't worry about it too much. There was a time I would never have believed I could have been a writer, and now I are one.

It's more about attitudes than platitudes.

KJ

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traces2757

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Killer Joe

"Alright, I agree that I worded that poorly. What I am really afraid of doing while posting in this thread is making a glaring spelling, grammar, or punctuation error!"

I wouldn't worry about it too much. There was a time I would never have believed I could have been a writer, and now I are one.

It's more about attitudes than platitudes.

KJ

See what I mean about hasty writing? If you had proofread your post you would have realized that it is "now I is one". You really need to be carefuller, KJ.

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dpwilliams

15 years ago

I totally disagree...you do not have to be a great writer...you have to be a great communicator. It was my 4th grade teacher that almost ruined that for me.

All she ever gave my papers were big red XXXX....so as an adult I was afraid. I was afraid of being judged if I made a mistake.

It is statements like this that get me going....

I Don't Want to See this Become the Norm
I am a writer and an editor. It is how I make most of my living (so far). Though I make mistakes like anyone else, I try my best to to 'do' my best, especially when it comes to my craft.

Well let me tell you I am a communicator...and my income proves it....

PS...I put dots on everything...is that grammatically correct...I doubt it.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

It was my 4th grade teacher that almost ruined that for me.

DUDE! You had Mrs Wombat, too?

Seriously. If you haven't read the Wombat Report, you really must. You will soooo relate.

The Wombat Report - Marketing Lessons from Unlikely Places

Paul

PS: Yes, I really do think that everyone in business online should read that. (It's not selling anything.)
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- dpwilliams 15 years ago
  
  Paul,
  
  Thank you so much for "The Wombat's Tale".
  
  I guess we did have the same 4th grade teacher.
  
  It took me a long time to get over her influence.
  
  I guess that is the reason for my instant reaction.
  
  You see, I am usually pretty mild and very friendly.
  
  Funny thing...I bet the author did not mean it the way I received it.
  
  She may be grammatically correct...but she did not communicate.
  
  Thanks
  
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traces2757

15 years ago

Originally Posted by dpwilliams

I totally disagree...you do not have to be a great writer...you have to be a great communicator. It was my 4th grade teacher that almost ruined that for me.

All she ever gave my papers were big red XXXX....so as an adult I was afraid. I was afraid of being judged if I made a mistake.

It is statements like this that get me going....

I Don't Want to See this Become the Norm
I am a writer and an editor. It is how I make most of my living (so far). Though I make mistakes like anyone else, I try my best to to 'do' my best, especially when it comes to my craft.

Well let me tell you I am a communicator...and my income proves it....

PS...I put dots on everything...is that grammatically correct...I doubt it.

I never expect anyone to be a "great" writer. What I worry about are the people who don't think decent writing matters at all.

Decent. Acceptable. Like the person cared at least a little how the content looked. Mistakes happen--I've seen them in published books--but there are mistakes and then there is total disregard. Of course communication is what is most important. I must have been lucky; the teachers I had in school encouraged effective communication in my writing first and foremost. Then they helped me learn that other pesky stuff like spelling and punctuation.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Tracy,

What I am really afraid of doing while posting in this thread is making a glaring spelling, grammar, or punctuation error!

[chuckle] A sensible concern for anyone who starts a thread like this. Fear not. None of your errors were glaring.

It's nice to see that you didn't make any of the stupid comments that so often accompany such posts.

"Typos are proof of wortless content."
"I would never buy from someone who couldn't tell there "theirs" from they're "theres."
"Professionals don't allow misteaks."
blah blah blah

Your main point is certainly valid. It's worth the effort to avoid looking like an illiterate idiot. But, and this is why I jump in on these threads, it's also important to keep these things in perspective.

If someone is selling writing services, I want clean writing and clear thought. If they're selling sneakers, those things are not so important.

If the writing seems hasty and sloppy, the reader may conclude that what you are writing about is not that important to you.

That's an assumption that is held almost exclusively by various species of Wombats.

Yes, some might leap to that tall conclusion. Others might simply think, "The guy's selling a book on training my dog to stop chewing the neighbor's cat. Who cares if he can't spell 'masticate' correctly?"

Paul

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Collette

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

...Others might simply think, "The guy's selling a book on training my dog to stop chewing the neighbor's cat. Who cares if he can't spell 'masticate' correctly?"

Paul

And still others might think,"Why doesn't he just say 'chew'?"

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Justin Michie

15 years ago

While I agree that people should proof read things and use the spell checker... if there's a mistake here and there, I don't think it's a big deal and it doesn't kill anyone's credibility.

I'm on a lot of lists and get emails from a lot of big internet marketers and there's a few of them who commonly have mistakes, but that doesn't matter, it's the message of what they're saying that does and I'd rather they say it and have mistakes then not say anything at all (most of the time).

If you're writing an English essay or submitting a resume for a job, then things should be prefect, but in the real world, especially the online world, there's no reason to be uptight with perfection.

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Jakehyten

15 years ago

Totally disagree here. What is our goal as marketers? Write perfectly grammatically correct articles? OR Write articles that are hones, connect with the reader and create rapport?

I can write very well and used to for my weight loss site. BUT then I just started writing how I would talk. MAJOR grammar mistakes all over the place. My conversions went up.

One thing i would agree with though is the spelling. That just makes you look kinda stupid. But who knows. Maybe ill test that too.

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Carlsbadd

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Jakehyten

Totally disagree here. What is our goal as marketers? Write perfectly grammatically correct articles? OR Write articles that are [bold]hones,[/bold] connect with the reader and create rapport?

I can write very well and used to for my weight loss site. BUT then I just started writing how I would talk. MAJOR grammar mistakes all over the place. My conversions went up.

One thing i would agree with though is the spelling. That just makes you look kinda stupid. But who knows. Maybe ill test that too.

[bold] hones[/bold]

Note the irony

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Richard Tunnah

15 years ago

Hi Tracy,
I understand what you're trying to say but don't agree. I'm dyslexic. I always let my lists know this because even though I spell check and re-read what I've written a dozen times my sentences may not be correct. However my lists usually know what I mean and accept it's just part of me (as it were!). In fact I've had people email to say it's great that I'm able to run a business being dyslexic! (never hindered Sir Richard Branson too much!!)

Rich

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traces2757

15 years ago

Originally Posted by richt1971

Hi Tracy,
I understand what you're trying to say but don't agree. I'm dyslexic. I always let my lists know this because even though I spell check and re-read what I've written a dozen times my sentences may not be correct. However my lists usually know what I mean and accept it's just part of me (as it were!). In fact I've had people email to say it's great that I'm able to run a business being dyslexic! (never hindered Sir Richard Branson too much!!)

Rich

I think it's great too, Rich. Just goes to show us that there's never an excuse not to succeed!

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Richard Tunnah 15 years ago

Originally Posted by traces2757

I think it's great too, Rich. Just goes to show us that there's never an excuse not to succeed!

Thanks! I wasn't holding myself out to be unique in any way though. Just pointing out that there are counter arguments to your point of view.

Rich
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- traces2757 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by richt1971
  
  Thanks! I wasn't holding myself out to be unique in any way though. Just pointing out that there are counter arguments to your point of view.
  
  Rich
  
  Of course there are. If everyone agreed with me I'd start to worry.
  
  Thanks
  
  Signature
  
  Tracy S
  
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Collette

15 years ago

Writing is a tool. And like all tools, one should use the tool most appropriate for the job at hand. No point in using a pipe wrench to chop wood.

If I'm reading a graduate thesis, I expect to see grammatically correct sentence structure.

If I'm reading a "Who Else Wants to Know How a Greasy, Unwashed Pig Farmer Makes Hot, Bodacious Chicks Rip Their Clothes Off, Bend Over and Beg Him to ... "

- not so much.

I will have to admit, however, that I'm in the camp of people whose eyeballs come to a screeching halt when confronted by "it's" instead of "its", "Guru's" instead of "Gurus" or some similar burnt offering. Especially when I see that sort of thing on a copywriter's site. Hell, I've seen some of the most egregious punctuation errors on the sales pages and in the portfolios of people purporting to be "copywriters".

Nor am I impressed when I see the same kind of sloppiness served up by major names in IM. It's a credibility issue for me. My rationale? If you're making all that moolah you say you're making, you can afford a copy editor. Or a writer who gives a damn.

Plus, to me, it tells me that the writer doesn't respect me, as a reader. I know that may seem to many that I'm taking it a tad personally, but I'm insulted by that. It's as though they don't think I'm worth the small, additional increment of time it would take to clean up the copy.

I'm also insulted when the writer doesn't take the time or the trouble to get his story straight.

I have two recent examples of this: In the first one, the IM Guru sent one of those "I'm mad as hell" emails. Allegedly, someone was selling pirate copies of his product for suuuuper cheap, and he was going to fight back by making the same suuuuper cheap offer himself! (didn't quite follow the logic there, but never mind).

Well, he was so fired up and incensed about this dastardly, blackhearted knave who was underselling him, that he piqued my interest...

A two-second Google later - I discovered that the exact same "immediate, one-time only" offer was all over the Guru's affiliate sites. And had been for several months. Word for word. The same offer.

Yes. Well. Sorry, no sale.

And then just this week, another HUGE copywriting name launched breaking news of his new info product on info products. In his sales letter he has a bunch of very nice bullets, two of which emphasize that you should ALWAYS, ALWAYS offer your info product in all its possible permutations (mp3, DVD, pdf transcript), and ALWAYS, ALWAYS offer a downloadable version.

Cool. I'm on board with that... except...

Scroll to the order button, and... what's this... could it be... c'est n'pas possible...!

No downloadable option. No transcript. No written format at all.

Uno option, my friends. CDs. Or nothing.

Now, call me a nitpicky Wombat, but when I'm going to lay out my measly guppie-level copywriting earnings on some whale shark authority-sourced information, is it too much to ask that said authority at least be consistent? That said authority at least do what he's telling me I should pay him to tell me to do?

I don't think so.

For me this really isn't about not being a great or a perfect writer.

It's about checking your work, and caring enough to make your writing clean and presentable to the world. It's about respect, and self-respect.

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dpwilliams

15 years ago

I will have to admit, however, that I'm in the camp of people whose eyeballs come to a screeching halt when confronted by "it's" instead of "its", "Guru's" instead of "Gurus" or some similar burnt offering. Especially when I see that sort of thing on a copywriter's site. Hell, I've seen some of the most egregious punctuation errors on the sales pages and in the portfolios of people purporting to be "copywriters".

Of course you would have to admit you are in this camp if you are peddling your writing skills in your sig file...

Come on...your eyeballs come to a screeching halt when confronted by "it's" instead of "its" are you freaking kidding me?

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Collette

15 years ago

Originally Posted by dpwilliams

Of course you would have to admit you are in this camp if you are peddling your writing skills in your sig file...

Come on...your eyeballs come to a screeching halt when confronted by "it's" instead of "its" are you freaking kidding me?

If I were "peddling" anything, I would be inviting you to sample or purchase my wares. My sig file is a simple URL. It identifies who I am and what I do. That's it. No sales pitch, no snappy tag line, no call-to-action. Look it up in a dictionary. That's not "peddling".

My writing skills have made me a very comfortable living for the last 12 years. It's what I do, and I do it well. THAT'S why it's my sig file. Apparently that's a problem for you?

I value precision in language. I guess you don't. It takes all kinds of people to make the world go round.

However, I did not insult you or any of the other posters here in my response. I'm not sure why you feel the need to be rude, insulting and aggressive in your response. You said in an earlier post that you feel you communicate well, so I can only assume the unnecessary and aggressive rudeness of your post is deliberate and intended. (Even if you did edit your original even more abusive reply.)

What a shame.

You know, I had a really crappy "Mrs. Wombat" math teacher when I was in elementary school. To this day, I can't do math in my head. I go completely blank.

But I don't go around randomly insulting engineers because I never learned to use a slide rule.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Collette,

You know, I had a really crappy "Mrs. Wombat" math teacher when I was in elementary school. To this day, I can't do math in my head. I go completely blank.

But I don't go around randomly insulting engineers because I never learned to use a slide rule.

THAT is an effective use of language.

Paul

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Collette 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Collette,THAT is an effective use of language.

Paul

Coming from you, Paul, that gives me all kinds of warm fuzzies.

Because you, dude, are a righteous WRITER.
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GarrieWilson

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Carlsbadd

[bold] hones[/bold]

Note the irony

You also forgot the "ill test that" It should have been "I'll"

Garrie

Note: I am a horrible speller but I get a giggle when people complain about others and they do the same thing. ::p

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Jakehyten

15 years ago

Originally Posted by GarrieWilson

You also forgot the "ill test that" It should have been "I'll"

Garrie

Note: I am a horrible speller but I get a giggle when people complain about others and they do the same thing. ::p

You hate that huh? Well why don't you start paying attention then? I wasn't complaining about peoples grammar or spelling. I was saying it's probably better that people make mistakes. Read my post.

And I would have to add that NOT paying attention is a lot worse than misspelling or grammar

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sf_Imtiaz

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Jakehyten

Totally disagree here. What is our goal as marketers? Write perfectly grammatically correct articles? OR Write articles that are hones, connect with the reader and create rapport?

I can write very well and used to for my weight loss site. BUT then I just started writing how I would talk. MAJOR grammar mistakes all over the place. My conversions went up.

One thing i would agree with though is the spelling. That just makes you look kinda stupid. But who knows. Maybe ill test that too.

I agree, mostly because of a similar experience. When I first started IM, I had a site in skin care niche and due to lack of any personal experience about skin care I used to write in kind of a formal way, another reason was that I'd been writing academic papers for a long time so my writing style became quite formal. It took me some time but I came to realize that this mode of writing doesn't work when you are marketing something because it lacks the capacity to build a quick connection with your reader and it fails to warm up the reader at all to make a quick decision.

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J. Barry Mandel

15 years ago

Amen!

I always hire my trusty copy editor to review projects for me because he will catch stuff time and time I again that I just wont see when I am putting together an eBook.

Hiring a copy editor will help you to maintain a high level of respect and help prevent returns due to unnecessary errors.

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sevenish

15 years ago

This old saw comes to mind:

After an overzealous editor attempted to rearrange one of Winston Churchill's sentences to avoid ending it in a preposition, the Prime Minister scribbled a single sentence in reply: "This is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I will not put."

I've seen that quote presented many ways, beginning with my grammar and middle school studies to undergrad studies and beyond.

I seldom end a phase or sentence with a preposition, whether in speaking or writing ... unless it works better otherwise. Flow, rhythm and connection and are key to real communication, no matter the delivery method.

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Chris Lockwood

15 years ago

A lot of the bad stuff such as ebooks and articles comes from outsourcing to people for whom English is a third language.

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Norma Holt

15 years ago

A few years ago I was putting up my information websites about a course I was conducting and they were very informative sites with lots of pages. I asked people in the course to go over them and see what they got from the information. I was particularly interested in the flow of material and the impact on others.

One woman in the course was an English teacher but not a high class one. Everyday she emailed me about spelling mistakes or other things which are that time were irrelevant to the structure of the sites. The lists went on and on and while I knew of the mistakes it was the content that most concerned me. I was hurriedly trying to get my sites organised (sorry "organized') so they would read well, or have I said that already..

if anyone has had to correct web sites with html and working out the coding etc will know that for the relatively new webmaster, which I was at that time, this was a big hindrance. Also at that time there were not as many resources as there are today. Like this was the dark ages of the Internet. Not that I am making excuses because the spelling was eventually all corrected but not thanks to the nagging school teacher.

It is not the bee all and the end all if there are mistakes. The really good web masters of that time were telling you to go to air with what you had and correct it later. I agree to a certain extent. We cannot be perfect first off so don't worry about the grammar, spelling and other things until you have the flow and the wording working for you.

That's my take on it.

Norma

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Killer Joe 15 years ago

Norma,

Look here: "if anyone has had to correct web sites with html ..."

You forgot to capitalize the first letter in your third paragraph.

For crying out loud, hasn't this thread had any impact on you at all?

Sheesh...

KJ
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traces2757

15 years ago

No more thinking out loud for me.

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discrat

15 years ago

Originally Posted by traces2757

I am a writer and an editor. It is how I make most of my living (so far). Though I make mistakes like anyone else, I try my best to to 'do' my best, especially when it comes to my craft.

Over the past couple of months, as I have been doing Internet marketing research, I have read through a lot of PDF files; some relatively short and some e-book length. I have studied people's websites to see how they are designing them and what the content looks like. I've read a lot of blogs written by Internet marketers. I have read marketing articles submitted to article directories. Although this by no means includes everything I have read, I have seen one theme pop up continuously: spelling, grammar, and punctuation mistakes.

I hate to see this become so acceptable. I realize that for many people writing and all that goes with it is not a strength--just like for me geometry is not a strength--but that doesn't mean that doing it well shouldn't be important. In the haste to get that sales letter or press release out, or to get that e-book finished or those articles submitted, proofreading and editing is often cut from the process. It shouldn't be. Trust me.

If writing is not your strong suit, let someone else proofread and edit your content before you call it finished. When your content is written well, you gain more credibility. When you gain more credibility, you gain more trust from your readers. If the writing seems hasty and sloppy, the reader may conclude that what you are writing about is not that important to you. If it's not important to you, why should it be important to them?

Just my two cents, and I'm sure some will disagree.

Yes, you make some very good points here. I know to me it is a pride thing. I mean I will make typos here and there like everyone else. But even with my threads at forums I take time to proofread what I just typed.
I think it says a lot about an individual who is diligent in their writng and is indicative what to expect from this individual in the other facets of Life !!

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ptone

15 years ago

You know where I see a lot of misspelled words? In the keywords people use to find my websites.

I wonder if a few commonly misspelled words on your site isn't a good idea...target those misspellings for higher rankings.

Then again, they find my sites anyway. There are no misspelled words on my sites..I'm picky about this. So is my wife who proofs everything for me. She is REALLY picky about this. As a matter of fact, her name is Vicki and I call her Picky Vicki. Just for this reason.

I don't know.

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Gail Sober

15 years ago

People that sell writing services hate bad grammar and spelling mistakes.

People that design websites hate poorly coded html.

People that design graphics hate poorly designed graphics.

People that write software hate poorly written code.

My mechanic probably hates it when I don't get my oil changed every 3000 miles.

Nothing new here.

I think the average person just wants to feel like you know what you're talking about.

A person looking for an ebook on cleaning their fish tank wants to buy from someone who knows about fish tanks, not an english professor.

The only time bad grammar and spelling mistakes bother me is when it comes home on notes from my kids teachers or if you're in the business of selling writing services.

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traces2757

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Gail Sober

People that sell writing services hate bad grammar and spelling mistakes.

People that design websites hate poorly coded html.

People that design graphics hate poorly designed graphics.

People that write software hate poorly written code.

My mechanic probably hates it when I don't get my oil changed every 3000 miles.

Nothing new here.

I think the average person just wants to feel like you know what you're talking about.

A person looking for an ebook on cleaning their fish tank wants to buy from someone who knows about fish tanks, not an english professor.

The only time bad grammar and spelling mistakes bother me is when it comes home on notes from my kids teachers or if you're in the business of selling writing services.

If we purchase a book at a bookstore, or a magazine from a magazine stand, or a manual on deck-building from the local hardware store, we expect to see correct spelling, grammar, and punctuation. Not Pulitzer prize winning writing; just decent, acceptable writing. The editors make sure that's what we get. Why does it offend some people that we might want to see that on the Internet as well? (And I'm talking about website content, articles, and e-books.)

I have a friend who is an author and a publisher--and a terrible speller. He makes sure his writing is proofread and edited before he or someone else publishes it.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Tracy,

If we purchase a book at a bookstore, or a magazine from a magazine stand, or a manual on deck-building from the local hardware store, we expect to see correct spelling, grammar, and punctuation. Not Pulitzer prize winning writing; just decent, acceptable writing. The editors make sure that's what we get. Why does it offend some people that we might want to see that on the Internet as well?

Who is saying they're offended by the expectation?

Note that you're talking about products produced by large corporations, with significant image concerns, and direct competition for commodity products.

If you watch offline self-published materials, you'll see the standards are slightly lower. You'll also see that people are more concerned with the information than the presentation.

Again, I'm not a fan of sloppy grammar, unclear thinking, or nonsense presented as "content."

What I am is seriously opposed to the lengths to which some people will go in pushing any kind of extreme orthodoxy. Not the people who talk about the benefits of doing things well, but the folks who treat conformity to the rules as a goal in an of itself.

Wombats, of any stripe.

Paul

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traces2757

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Tracy,Who is saying they're offended by the expectation?

Note that you're talking about products produced by large corporations, with significant image concerns, and direct competition for commodity products.

If you watch offline self-published materials, you'll see the standards are slightly lower. You'll also see that people are more concerned with the information than the presentation.

Again, I'm not a fan of sloppy grammar, unclear thinking, or nonsense presented as "content."

What I am is seriously opposed to the lengths to which some people will go in pushing any kind of extreme orthodoxy. Not the people who talk about the benefits of doing things well, but the folks who treat conformity to the rules as a goal in an of itself.

Wombats, of any stripe.

Paul

That's really all I was trying to say. Heck, I'm a laid back hippie-type who isn't much into conforming. However, though math is not one of my strengths, if I made a decision to feature a website about home schooling and on that website I wanted to show a few math problems and solutions, I'd make sure they were correct. And if I wasn't sure, I'd ask someone for whom math was a strength to check them for me. If I'm going to do something, I'm going to make an effort to do it right.

I don't scream in horror when I see a few mistakes in content. But I am disappointed when I see obvious indifference.

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Chris Lockwood

15 years ago

Originally Posted by traces2757

If we purchase a book at a bookstore, or a magazine from a magazine stand, or a manual on deck-building from the local hardware store, we expect to see correct spelling, grammar, and punctuation.

I've found typos in those, too. I guess the editors weren't up to your standards.

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traces2757 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood

I've found typos in those, too. I guess the editors weren't up to your standards.

Okay, I'm done. A lively debate is fine and often educational, but when it starts to degrade into snide remarks it no longer serves any useful purpose.
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- Chris Lockwood 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by traces2757
  
  Okay, I'm done. A lively debate is fine and often educational, but when it starts to degrade into snide remarks it no longer has any useful purpose.
  
  Translation: you can't defend your comments so you're going to run away. :rolleyes:
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Chris,
  
  Translation: you can't defend your comments so you're going to run away. :rolleyes:
  
  Ummm... No. That's not even close to a proper translation in this case. It often explains withdrawal from a conversation, but sometimes, just sometimes, there are more sane and sensible explanations.
  
  Like, for example, when someone you're speaking with is being a d___.
  
  Not mentioning any names or nothin'...
  
  Paul
  
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Gail Sober

15 years ago

Why does it offend some people that we might want to see that on the Internet as well?

I'm not offended, just said that it doesn't bother me and everyone is usually a little more aware of mistakes others make when it is in their area of expertise.

I expect a little more when buying an ebook on copywriting skills than I do when buying an ebook on replacing the trap in my toilet.

Magazine have editors and I'm sure a number of other people involved in making sure their publication is high quality. Joe the Plumber who is trying to make a few bucks selling an ebook about basic toiliet repairs most likely doesn't have the same resources.

Just saying, I have different expectations and will not pass on something I feel contains good information just because the person doesn't know what a possessive is or may not have an advanced degree in English.

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traces2757

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Gail Sober

I'm not offended, just said that it doesn't bother me and everyone is usually a little more aware of mistakes others make when it is in their area of expertise.

I expect a little more when buying an ebook on copywriting skills than I do when buying an ebook on replacing the trap in my toilet.

Magazine have editors and I'm sure a number of other people involved in making sure their publication is high quality. Joe the Plumber who is trying to make a few bucks selling an ebook about basic toiliet repairs most likely doesn't have the same resources.

Just saying, I have different expectations and will not pass on something I feel contains good information just because the person doesn't know what a possessive is or may not have an advanced degree in English.

Not Joe the Plumber! Anyone but Joe the Plumber!

I understand what you're saying. What I am trying to get across, though, is that I'd hate to see everyone start saying "It's just the Internet, so it doesn't matter how it looks." I'd like to think that, just like in the world of paper publications, it matters more than it doesn't.

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dpwilliams

15 years ago

If we purchase a book at a bookstore, or a magazine from a magazine stand, or a manual on deck-building from the local hardware store, we expect to see correct spelling, grammar, and punctuation. Not Pulitzer prize winning writing; just decent, acceptable writing. The editors make sure that's what we get. Why does it offend some people that we might want to see that on the Internet as well? (And I'm talking about website content, articles, and e-books.)

My whole point...Who the heck is "we" this elitist ( have no idea if I spelled that right...but my spell checker said yes so I'm going with it) group of writers and authors who have extensively studied the manual and really believe the rest of us are going to hell in a hand basket.

Look, I've just read this same stuff in this forum so many times and I am just tired of the "if you can't do it by the manual...then maybe....................??? "

I don't know...maybe......we should just get smarter like you folks....

Maybe.....we just don't realize how dumb we really are....you know who are we kidding?

It's this....I have to have it just perfect...that immobilizes people...creates fear...and makes them completely unproductive.

They take aim....take aim....take aim again....and never quite measure up.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

It's this....I have to have it just perfect...that immobilizes people...creates fear...and makes them completely unproductive.

Yup. And that is the most serious concern I have with Wombats.

I don't think Tracy fits the Wombat stripe at all, but this sort of thread always brings the wombats out of the woodwork.

Paul
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naruq 15 years ago

I agree that a person should have their sales letter proof read. However, if I see spelling mistakes but the product or service will fill a need or want that I have, I will not be to concern with spelling in the sales letter.
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mikeyman120 14 years ago

People get lazy. they don't want to use spell check or proof read.

Mike
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The Expert 14 years ago

I have not read all the replies to this thread, but I was just listening to a Dan Kennedy CD the other day and he made the point that he'll sell 500 copies of a $2500 product in one day and there will be one or two in the crowd that bought that will count up all the typos and email him about it.

Said he always chuckles and ignores them.

His point was that people will take forever to put a product together (be it large or small). He on the other hand will put a deadline in place, meet it, and be hugely profitable.

He then pointed out that future courses he sold would continue to sell just fine...even to those who complained about the typos!

He then admonished the listeners to get off their butts and get a product into production, on deadline, and get to selling ASAP...editing be damned.

In the end, it's all about the bottom line. If I can pump out more products consistently and spelling and grammar mistakes don't impact profit...well editing then will not be at the top of my concerns.
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Gail Sober

15 years ago

Not Joe the Plumber! Anyone but Joe the Plumber!

I couldn't resist! Tito The Builder was a strong candidate for my example but I couldn't quite work him into the toilet repair scenario.

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Jeffery

15 years ago

A Wise Old Warrior (Paul Myers) once made a comment about a similiar subject years ago that will always stick in my mind. This is not exact, but was something like this..

As long as the intent is communicated clearly I have no problem with the grammer or spelling.

Something like that.

BTW, I like to read what Paul has to say about things. I dislike forcing myself to scroll down, scroll down, and scroll down (skip posts) just to see what Paul has to say

Keep on keeping on Warrior

Jeffery 100% :-)

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dpwilliams 15 years ago

A Wise Old Warrior (Paul Myers) once made a comment

Little off subject and a little lighter....

Paul,

I know you have over 6,000 posts and I am not quite sure how long it would take to get THAT many...but are you

...old?
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  I know you have over 6,000 posts and I am not quite sure how long it would take to get THAT many...but are you
  
  ...old?
  
  I didn't even realize I was near 6000, much less over it.
  
  Depends. Do you define 50 as "old?"
  
  Like many of the real "old-timers" here, I have a lot more posts as a Warrior than show up under my username. A lot of us were around for the earliest incarnation of the Warrior Forum, back when the software didn't waste cycles tracking such things. And I spent 3 years as the Lone Moderator, which slowed down my posting a bit.
  
  This topic is at least as old among Warriors as I am. Probably older. It's always fun for me. Sensible folk, like Tracy, help make the point that avoiding needless demonstration of illiteracy is a good thing.
  
  The idiots who put grammar ahead of sense and sensitivity, unlike Tracy, make excellent target practice. A few rounds with them and I understand the satisfaction that a cat finds in a really fine scratching post.
  
  They keep my claws, and my instincts, sharp.
  
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  dpwilliams 15 years ago
  
  No I don't think 50 is old by anyone's measure.
  
  You know here I sit.
  
  At this very late hour. It is 4:45 in the morning. I have to get up in a couple of hours and drive to Buffalo NY...my son's in a hockey tournament tomorrow...but here I sit...
  
  I do feel bad that Tracy got the brunt of my comments. I may have even hurt her feelings...If so, I am not proud of that.
  
  I too have just seen this subject so many times...I take issue with it and I think it is nonproductive to obsess about "correctness".
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Buffalo? That's where I'm from originally. Riverside is where I grew up, to the extent that I can claim to have ever "grown up."
  
  Good luck with the tournament. Buffalonians take their hockey seriously. I'd bet most WNY hockey moms would kick Governor Palin's... moose... all over the map. (And with greater literacy, to keep it on topic...
  
  One of the funniest things I've ever experienced... We were sitting around at my folks' house one evening, watching the Sabers and the Redwings. Me, my Dad and Mom, my brother Dan and his wife Jodi. There was a scuffle in the Sabers' end of the ice, and everyone was into the game. All of a sudden my Mom, a devout Baptist and life-long Pennsylvania farm girl, who'd kill to help her kids but wouldn't cuss to save her soul, yells...
  
  "Get the puck out of there!"
  
  Pop, Dan and Jodi all froze. They looked at my Mom like she'd just grown fangs and a third arm. Dead silence, until I started laughing like a complete idiot.
  
  Ma turned red as a Detroit jersey.
  
  I think Tracy might just forgive you, as long as you don't make any "pit bull with lipstick" jokes.
  
  Paul
  
  PS: That story is both true and completely apropros to the topic. So nyah!
  
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Jeffery

15 years ago

Sometimes I refer to seasoned professionals as Wise Old Warriors. Did not mean to be rude. Apologies!!

Jeffery 100% :-)

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Jeffery,

Sometimes I refer to seasoned professionals as Wise Old Warriors. Did not mean to be rude. Apologies!!

Anyone who takes offense at anything you say needs to get a prescription for chill.

Although, the "wise" part is kind of pushing it...

Paul
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Jeffery

15 years ago

Thanks Paul :-)

Printing it and posting it on "my wife's refrigerator"

Jeffery 100% :-)

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Printing it and posting it on "my wife's refrigerator"

[spuh-lorf]
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- Jeffery 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  [spuh-lorf]
  
  Yeah, that is kind of what she said, lol. She must have picked up my Wombat copy. Seriously, I did put it on the frige, but not until after she finished frying the chicken for lunch today
  
  Her chicked ain't bad BTW.
  
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JayXtreme

15 years ago

Well...

This thread got a little warm.. I may even toast my teacake this morning here

Anyways..

@theOP...

It has been said on more than one occasion that I write very well

It has also been said on more than one occasion that my writing has plenty of "errors"...

My income tells me that no matter which side of the coin we are using here... my writing does it's job..

Now.. if you go to my blog below in my sig, I encourage you to strip it bare for "errors" and undoubtedly you will find some, maybe even plenty.. I don't know how many because I for one am not going to triple proof read every post I put out...

But let me ask you.. if you read my blog posts, articles, reports, content... do you get my message clearly??,... do I communicate it very well..

I will answer for you... Yes I do.. I have testimonials coming out my eyeballs, blog comments and e-mails to thank me for it..

I hand out free reports time and time again that have accidental errors in them, yet the feedback I receive on the content is fantastic...

I converse via e-mail, skype, DM, PM and more with people from

Malaysia, India, France, Germany, USA, Belgium.. to name but a few..

And I never have trouble getting my message across, my communication with the people I am trying to communicate with is never broken...

My bank account and Paypal tell me that I do this fairly well..

So.. if what you don't want to see become the norm, is my norm.. then it's all good.. I'm not here to be schooled... I'm here to make money, and I do it very well...

If that means I use more .... ellipses... than most

and occasionally make my reader giggle at a mistake...

Then I'm happy..

Peace

Jay

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Jay,

Sure, but you're from the UK. We don't expect you people to speak proper English!

Paul

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JayXtreme

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Jay,

Sure, but you're from the UK. We don't expect you people to speak proper English!

Paul

LOL.. it's neeeeeessh ya know.. not nitch

You rock Paul..

Peace

Jay

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Jay,

LOL.. it's neeeeeessh ya know.. not nitch

"We are the knights who say neeeeeessh!"

Yeah, yeah. I gotcher 'shrubbery,' right here...

You rock Paul..

Oooo! Oooo! Misteak!

By leaving the ',' off after the word before my name, you're suggesting that I "rock" someone named Paul. This is both grammatically and preferentially incorrect.

Paul

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JayXtreme

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Jay,"We are the knights who say neeeeeessh!"

Yeah, yeah. I gotcher 'shrubbery,' right here...Oooo! Oooo! Misteak!

By leaving the ',' off after the word before my name, you're suggesting that I "rock" someone named Paul. This is both grammatically and preferentially incorrect.

Paul

lol..lol... stop it.. It's early and I'm slowly easing myself into saturday.. My girl is in the bathroom wondering what the heck I'm sat here chucklin for..

haha..

You rock, Paul!!

Peace

Jay

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Jeffery,

Her chicked ain't bad BTW.

Does that qualify as "too much information?"

Jay,

My girl is in the bathroom wondering what the heck I'm sat here chucklin for..

Same question. TMI?

Some people's kids...

Paul

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JazzOscar

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ccmusicman

-----
I think things should look professional. But I don't think that people need to obsess over. Action is more important that perfectionist thinking. If people get caught up in "Is this perfect?" then they get the dreaded over analysis paralysis.
-----

Yes, the fear of not being perfect can be ruining. Taking action is the important thing, but I would like people to try to do their best.

Originally Posted by discrat

-----
I know to me it is a pride thing. I mean I will make typos here and there like everyone else. But even with my threads at forums I take time to proofread what I just typed.

I think it says a lot about an individual who is diligent in their writng and is indicative what to expect from this individual in the other facets of Life !!

I feel the same way. We should at least try to do the best we can.

Originally Posted by Collette

-----
Nor am I impressed when I see the same kind of sloppiness served up by major names in IM. It's a credibility issue for me. My rationale? If you're making all that moolah you say you're making, you can afford a copy editor. Or a writer who gives a damn.
-----

That kind of sloppyness makes me wonder too;

* Don't they care?
* Are they to greedy to use a proof reader even though they need it? Is thinking like that what has made them rich? In that case I don't want to copy them.
* Does their sloppyness increase their conversion rates. I saw or heard something about someone split testing this. A page with an unintended, blatant spelling error converted much better then the same page with the error corrected.

P.S. Is it "sloppyness" or "sloppiness"?:confused: I fear the answer.

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ShayB

15 years ago

Writing is much different than it used to be. The rules of writing have changed over the years.

When this writer was growing up, one always wrote in the third person, not using "you" or "I" unless it was a specific literary technique. If one did refer to oneself in the piece, then "this author" or "this writer" had to be used - not "I." One must never start a sentence with "and" or "but." Each sentence must be a complete sentence, with no fragments.

(See how stuffy that paragraph sounds?

)

But now we write like we talk. And it drives me crazy to see sentences start with "and."

But that is more acceptable now, especially on the Web.:rolleyes:

Our culture has shaped our grammar, and that is the very nature of language - it is constantly changing and adapting. (For better or worse - LOL) Common mistakes in spelling often become alternative spellings down the road.

So, while I share your pain when it comes to seeing errors on sites, I try to go with the flow. :rolleyes:

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traces2757

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Shay60654

But now we write like we talk. And it drives me crazy to see sentences start with "and."

But that is more acceptable now, especially on the Web.:rolleyes:So, while I share your pain when it comes to seeing errors on sites, I try to go with the flow. :rolleyes:

Ya gotta go with the flow, yo.

Yes, I've peeked back into this thread. I thought perhaps it had peaked and was going to die a natural death, but it piqued my interest again so I had to come back.

(Please don't throw tomatoes. I'll be better after I've had one more cup of tea.)

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Collette

15 years ago

Originally Posted by traces2757

Ya gotta go with the flow, yo.

Yo. Word. You use the language that resonates with your listener. So while I may begin sentences with 'And' and 'But' in a sales letter or forum post, I wouldn't dream of doing so if I were writing a white paper for IBM.

The trick is to have the skills to do whatever you need to do with the language to achieve your objective. And if your objective is to establish yourself as a credible authority, appearing as an illiterate ignoramus isn't going to help you communicate.

Originally Posted by traces2757

(Please don't throw tomatoes. I'll be better after I've had one more cup of tea.)

Tea??? Tea??? Isn't that the drink of elitists??

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traces2757

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Collette

Tea??? Tea??? Isn't that the drink of elitists??

It's Chai tea! The drink of hippies!

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Collette

15 years ago

Originally Posted by traces2757

It's Chai tea! The drink of hippies!

Hippie elitists. We are doomed, indeed.

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traces2757 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Collette

Hippie elitists. We are doomed, indeed.

Hippies were always sort of elitist anyway, weren't they? Remember when they didn't trust anyone over 30? (Until they all passed 30.)
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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Mike,

Thanks for reminding us of the need for awareness of the challenges faced by folks for whom English is not a first language.

Collette,

Why would you choose to deliver your message to the world in a way that immediately loses you 30% or more of your listeners? Why wouldn't you want to keep those people in your prospect pool, when there's a way to do so?

I'm assuming that number was thrown out as an example, rather than intended to be taken seriously.

Every time one of these threads explodes, I wait for someone else to be the first to bring up the real deal-killer in writing. Despite the presence of so many self-identified professional writers, no-one ever seems to mention it explicitly, and only rarely does anyone even hint at it indirectly.

Syntax.

The organization of component thoughts and concepts, expressed in appropriate words, into a coherent and effective whole. Clear sentence structure, ordered progression, purpose fulfilled.

There is a difference between bad grammar and bad writing: Bad grammar is largely a product of incomplete education. Bad writing results from unclear thinking.

If the thinking is clear, and the content relevant, useful and interesting, people will forgive, or even fail to notice, small amounts of typos and mistakes in grammar.

Feed them sloppy sentences and disorganized paragraphs, with no sense of movement toward a conclusion, and they'll walk. Even if the grammar is perfect.

Clear thinking can (rarely) result in bad writing. Good writing cannot arise from sloppy thinking.

Syntax is the tool that produces both clear thinking and good writing.

Learning the technical end of syntax in writing should take about an evening. If you understand the relationships among the parts of the following sentence, you're 90% of the way there:

"This is an independent clause, and this a dependent, which completes this lesson."

Learning to think clearly takes a bit more work. Not much, but a bit. And then some practice. It's worth the effort.

Paul

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Collette 15 years ago

I was just using the responses posted here to posit a rough ratio, so no, don't quote that figure as fact.

I agree with you about the importance of syntax. However, I didn't refer to it explicitly bcause that doesn't seem to be where the resistance lies.

What I'm getting from several of the posters here is an insistance that delivering decent writing to your readers is an unnecessary snobbery. I disagree.

The ultimate purpose of all good writing is to effectively deliver an idea in a clear, coherent thought process. Depending on the circumstances and the reader, exceptions to "correct" grammar and a few typos will not hinder that process.

Unfortunately, it's been my experience that people who publish their writing with atrocious grammar and spelling errors have rarely bothered to clarify their thoughts. Why should I waste my time trying to decipher the disorganized and sloppy thinking of someone who has initiated contact with me?

Quick story: My first job out of college was working for a non-profit agency as an at-risk youth counselor. One of the things we did was find job opportunities in companies like IBM, Citibank, NY Times, Corp., and the like, and get the companies to agree to consider the kids for their open positions.

Now, many of these kids came from backgrounds where they'd never lived with anyone who had actually held a job. This meant that we had to explain to them that they absolutely could not show up for a job interview at IBM wearing baggy jeans and a doorag. And we had to do this because the kids often assumed that the interviewer should be able to "see" their employment potential, regardless of what they were wearing.

Of course, the real world doesn't work that way. You're usually judged on your appearance first.

The objection that several posters here seem to be making is that readers should be able to "see" how valuable their content is, no matter how poorly it's presented. And that the reader shoud be willing to wade through endless amounts of sloppy writing to get to their priceless wisdom.

However, like the interviewee showing up in a doog=rag and baggy jeans - ain't gonna happen.

All good writing is clear. And as you pointed out, you cannot have clear writing without clear thinking.
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rosetrees 15 years ago

The (Curse of the) Spell Chequer

Eye have a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a quay and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar rite
It shows me straight a weigh

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose be four two long
And eye can putt the error rite
Its rear lea ever wrong

Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shoe your please two no
It letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.
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Collette 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Jay,"We are the knights who say neeeeeessh!"

Yeah, yeah. I gotcher 'shrubbery,' right here...Oooo! Oooo! Misteak!

Paul

Leaving your preferences aside...

Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say "Ni!" at will to old ladies! There is a pestilence upon this land! Nothing is sacred! Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this time.

(yes, I like Monty Python waaaay too much)
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rosetrees

15 years ago

For me it's about "understandability". I don't want to have to read something twice or more before I "get" what it's about. If I read " in this report your xxxx" I'm instinctively waiting to be told what my xxxx is/isn't going to do. If it turns out that what was intended was "in this report you're", I have to go back and start again, because my brain was waiting for a different set of info.

I have no problem with short sentences, slang etc. I do have a problem with totally ungrammatical nonsensical sentences that ramble on and on with no punctuation the writer just doesnt seem to care if i understand it he knew what was meant ok?

I remember once working for a large engineering company. They issued a learned report. I read it. It's conclusion stated the opposite of what was meant. I pointed that out. My boss looked disinterested and said "you know what it means". Yes I did. That's how I knew it was wrong. But - pointed out, the reader might read what was written instead of what was meant. After all, if they knew the answer, they wouldn't be buying the report, would they?

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sam12six

15 years ago

I don't know if Paul would consider me a Wombat. I'm usually far more concerned with the spoken word in my Wombat-ness (nukuler and peripheriel kill me).

That said, I think of widespread spelling and grammar errors on a website the same way I think of a resume with a coffee ring on it. It doesn't automatically mean you'd be a worse employee than that guy with the clean resume, but then again...

I think the same goes for sales copy. While a typo or an awkward phrase isn't a big deal, a page full of obvious errors makes people (or at least me) wonder whether the same care went into researching and creating the product.

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Anbelle

15 years ago

I totally agree. I have noticed this a long time ago in other circumstances, but there seem to be a lot of people out there who simply cannot spell ! Or don't care... One or the other, that seem to happen out here in Internet Marketing as well. English not being my own language, it does bother me why to people who have it as such, it's not important to write it correctly.

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J A Neal

15 years ago

I find myself catching mistakes as I read, but don't dwell on it. Luckily I have a group of friends that proofread my attempts at writing. This constructive criticism helps me stay focused and definitely improves my content.

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ladyjane 15 years ago

I suppose it's all a matter of personal opinion. Some people could care less about grammar and spelling, while others place a great importance on these things. Personally, I'm less inclined to buy a product or service if the sales letter is full of spelling and grammar mistakes. While I might be willing to overlook one or two mistakes, any more than that is a real turn-off for me, and causes the marketer to lose credibility in my eyes. I always think, "They should have hired me to edit this for them!"

Granted, I've made my living as a freelance writer and editor for the past 6 years, so it's very possible I might be a bit of a spelling and grammar snob (especially when it comes to spelling). But these things are important to me and make a difference in my purchasing decisions. Other people may feel differently, and that's just as valid. We're all unique people, after all!
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XFactor

15 years ago

Originally Posted by traces2757

I am a writer and an editor. It is how I make most of my living (so far). Though I make mistakes like anyone else, I try my best to to 'do' my best, especially when it comes to my craft.

Over the past couple of months, as I have been doing Internet marketing research, I have read through a lot of PDF files; some relatively short and some e-book length. I have studied people's websites to see how they are designing them and what the content looks like. I've read a lot of blogs written by Internet marketers. I have read marketing articles submitted to article directories. Although this by no means includes everything I have read, I have seen one theme pop up continuously: spelling, grammar, and punctuation mistakes.

I hate to see this become so acceptable. I realize that for many people writing and all that goes with it is not a strength--just like for me geometry is not a strength--but that doesn't mean that doing it well shouldn't be important. In the haste to get that sales letter or press release out, or to get that e-book finished or those articles submitted, proofreading and editing is often cut from the process. It shouldn't be. Trust me.

If writing is not your strong suit, let someone else proofread and edit your content before you call it finished. When your content is written well, you gain more credibility. When you gain more credibility, you gain more trust from your readers. If the writing seems hasty and sloppy, the reader may conclude that what you are writing about is not that important to you. If it's not important to you, why should it be important to them?

Just my two cents, and I'm sure some will disagree.

This sounds like a "writer's" ego mindset.

Mistakes happen and in the end it's not about the spell-check, it's about the content.

Don't agree? Well some of the best books I've read have grammar errors:

"Think & Grow Rich" and "How I Raised Myself From Success To Failure in Selling"
are 2 prime examples.

- John

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traces2757

15 years ago

Originally Posted by XFactor

This sounds like a "writer's" ego mindset.

Mistakes happen and in the end it's not about the spell-check, it's about the content.

Don't agree? Well some of the best books I've read have grammar errors:

"Think & Grow Rich" and "How I Raised Myself From Success To Failure in Selling"
are 2 prime examples.

- John

Of course mistakes happen. I stated that right from the start.

One time a writer friend of mine told me to check out this article on the Internet. He said it was the best writing, bar none, he had ever seen. He was practically drooling he was so impressed. I read the article and had to agree that the spelling, grammar and punctuation were impeccable. Quite impressive.

The article bored me to tears.

To me it looked like the author was trying so hard to impress people with his writing skills and intelligence that he was deliberately talking over people's heads. And here I will take Internet license and say "bleh".

Communication and engaging the reader is the most important thing. I simply take issue with those people who don't care at all how the content looks.

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XFactor

15 years ago

Originally Posted by traces2757

Of course mistakes happen. I stated that right from the start.

One time a writer friend of mine told me to check out this article on the Internet. He said it was the best writing, bar none, he had ever seen. He was practically drooling he was so impressed. I read the article and had to agree that the spelling, grammar and punctuation were impeccable. Quite impressive.

The article bored me to tears.

To me it looked like the author was trying so hard to impress people with his writing skills and intelligence that he was deliberately talking over people's heads. And here I will take Internet license and say "bleh".

Communication and engaging the reader is the most important thing. I simply take issue with those people who don't care at all how the content looks.

You take issues - Seriously? Why would you waste any energy on anyone else's writing
but your own?

My blunt opinion: This is a pedestal post.

Step down and get back to work. Don't worry about other people.

- John

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traces2757

15 years ago

Originally Posted by XFactor

You take issues - Seriously? Why would you waste any energy on anyone else's writing
but your own?

My blunt opinion: This is a pedestal post.

Step down and get back to work. Don't worry about other people.

- John

I don't lose any sleep over it. (I lose sleep over other things, but not that.) When someone writes with the intent of getting as many people as possible to read what they wrote, however, I appreciate when they care about how it looks. Not obsess about how it looks, just care. As in "hey editor friend, could you look this over real quick and make sure that it's reasonably readable?"

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The Wanderer

15 years ago

Originally Posted by XFactor

You take issues - Seriously? Why would you waste any energy on anyone else's writing
but your own?

My blunt opinion: This is a pedestal post.

Step down and get back to work. Don't worry about other people.

- John

A blunt question: if that's your opinion, why are you wasting time reading and answering on this thread? Take your own advice!

Now, if anyone cares, I'll throw out my opinion. I'll forgive almost anything if the content is good enough. It very rarely is. The converse is also true. If the content is terrible, I don't care how perfect the presentation and grammar are. That, too, is quite rare. Most often there's a pretty good correlation between the quality of the content and the presentation. And I think most people can find a happy medium between being paralyzed by perfection and not giving a rat's ass what kind of cr*p they produce.

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Collette 15 years ago

Originally Posted by XFactor

This sounds like a "writer's" ego mindset.

Mistakes happen and in the end it's not about the spell-check, it's about the content.

- John

John, if you have so many errors as to appear uneducated or sloppy, many readers never get to the content.

To put this into marketing terms: You want to successfully offer your product to as many people as possible. Why would you choose to deliberately and wilfully eliminate a sub-set of potential buyers when you don't have to? Why would you choose to deliver your message to the world in a way that immediately loses you 30% or more of your listeners? Why wouldn't you want to keep those people in your prospect pool, when there's a way to do so?

This does not mean you have to hire a writer if you don't want to, even if you know that writing isn't your strong skill. Write the stuff yourself, if you want. Just write it, no matter how riddled typos, spelling errors or grammatical errors the draft may be.

Then hire someone who does have the skills to edit it for you. Heck, you can usually find an English major at your local college who would be interested in editing your copy for a few extra bucks. It doesn't have to be expensive.
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Paul Hancox

15 years ago

***

LESSONS I HAVE LEARNED FROM THIS THREAD...

(Or rather, stuff I already knew but didn't want to say out of modesty... which is then cancelled out by me telling you this... doh!):

* People who sell writing and editing services are going to notice "bad grammar" a lot more than the average person.

* "Poor grammar" (compared to textbook grammar) may hurt sales if it takes away from the message being communicated, or if the reader expects better (i.e. I'd personally be worried about a lawyer using really sloppy language and grammar... thinking that if they can't do a decent job in their literature/site, what will they be like in court?)

* "Poor grammar" may not influence sales, or even positively influence sales if the reader understands or empathizes with the writer (such as in the example of the person with dyslexia, or, say, if a person states from the outset that English is not their first language; or if you're selling to a market that themselves regularly use "poor grammar"! In that circumstance, using "correct" grammar may actually hurt sales!)

* "Good grammar" may actually hinder sales in certain circumstances. For instance, early on in my sales letter, I want people to keep reading... so I'll use "And" at the beginning of a sentence deliberately because it implies a continuation of thought.

And who can resist that? (See how it works?) To me, the grammar "rule" that you shouldn't start a sentence with "and" is a hinderance to the purpose of my message in a sales letter.

* It's all about degrees of something. Sometimes, being overly concerned about grammar can make an article sound stilted. whiile being under-ly concerned can make u sound sloppy.

I like Paul Myers' style of writing. It's punchy. Powerful.

Is it "bad grammar" to write one word sentences? Probably. But it's also effective.

Paul violates the rules of grammar very effectively.

And that's the key difference.

I violate the rules of grammar when it suits my purpose, because grammar should be there to FACILITATE good communication, not hinder it.

When I think a rule hinders it... bye, bye rule.

Besides, the rules of grammar are not like gravity. They can be changed, collectively, by society.

"To whom am I speaking?" should be one of them... but that's just my own personal opinion.

"Who am I speaking to?" sounds much more natural to me, but apparently it's not correct grammar.

Still, I'm willing to bet most people would much prefer to use the latter.

That tells me that the rules of grammar don't always help communication.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Paul,

Paul violates the rules of grammar very effectively.

Know why that works?

I don't just expect my readers to be intelligent, I insist on it. And they rarely disappoint me.

I respect them. More importantly, I remind them, in ways that are clear and immediate, that they're smart, thinking creatures. I challenge them.

Believe it - people appreciate that.

As far as breaking the rules effectively, you hit the main requirement on the head: You have to know what the rules are, what your purpose is, and whether the rules help or hinder you in achieving that purpose.

Reminds me of my favorite Tony Blake line: "Before you can think outside the box, you have to know what the damned box looks like!"

With the exception of forum threads, grammar cops avoid me like the plague. Yes, there's plenty of ammo for them in almost everything I write. I cheerfully split infinitives. I end sentences with prepositions when I want to. And I start sentences with conjunctions.

I also use complex sentence structures, properly punctuated, and guaranteed to make even the sternest Wombat think twice before bearding me in my lair.

Wombats only concern me in so far as they cause others to doubt themselves unproductively. Otherwise, I think they're kind of funny.

Paul
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- Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Collette,
  
  Unfortunately, it's been my experience that people who publish their writing with atrocious grammar and spelling errors have rarely bothered to clarify their thoughts.
  
  Compound argument. Doesn't hold together.
  
  Spelling errors have nothing to do with clarity of thought. Nothing. Yes, they're distracting, but that's all they are.
  
  'Atrocious' is a judgement. An opinion, based most often on one's personal standards, rather than any objective measure. There are people for whom the bar is so high that none of the posts in this thread would pass muster. Certainly none of mine.
  
  If the ideas are clear, they're clear, grammar not withstanding.
  
  If the ideas are unclear, the writing MAY be bad. It's also possible that the author is approaching the subject from a perspective that's foreign to you, or applying assumptions that are unstated and unshared. The reader's focus may be on things other than the ideas, such as, for example, the author's incorrect use of commas.
  
  Or, just maybe, the writing could be reflective of a genuinely sloppy thought process. Common enough.
  
  If the writing is so disordered that you can't extract the meaning, or doing so requires more effort than the final value warrants, then it's a good idea to skip it. Just be aware that it's a personal choice, not necessarily an absolute condition.
  
  Yes, many people should spend more effort in making their content clear. It is equally true that many people should spend less effort in finding fault and more effort in learning and finding connections.
  
  I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I am mostly providing a counter perspective, intended to help people see both sides, and to keep out the nutballs who usually flock to these threads.
  
  Paul
  
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  Collette 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  Collette,Compound argument. Doesn't hold together.
  
  Spelling errors have nothing to do with clarity of thought. Nothing.
  
  I didn't say they did.
  
  Originally Posted by Paul Myers
  
  ...'Atrocious' is a judgement. An opinion, based most often on one's personal standards, rather than any objective measure.
  Paul
  
  That's why I preceeded my statement with "Unfortunately, in my experience..."
  
  I'm not suggesting my experience is a universal standard. And really, I'm not telling anybody that they have to turn into a grammar cop.
  
  On the contrary, I've pointed out (several times now) that writing should match the situation and the reader. Sometimes that means using 'whom'. And sometimes it means beginning your sentences with 'But' or finishing with 'for'. The world goes on.
  
  But for me, sloppy writing is a sign of disrespect to me, the reader. To me, it suggests that the writer assumes I am too stupid or insignificant for him to take the time or the effort to make his writing presentable.
  
  And it has been my experience that sloppy writing rarely contains coherent thought.
  
  Your mileage may vary.
  
  I don't read anything looking for errors. I don't obsess over every little typo or whether someone used "amount" when they should have used "number". But I feel that people should care about what they say and how they say it. I feel it's a sign of respect to the reader. And there are many, many resources available to a writer who cares, but who is no Hemmingway.
  
  *BTW: A "writer" is simply someone who writes. Writing, as an action, does not define the writer as "good" or "bad".
  
  And it's a simple matter of being realistic about your skills and strengths. If writing isn't your strength, so what? Get someone who is better at it to help you. Problem solved. (I'm not sure why there is such resistance to this idea.)
  
  Maybe I should plough through missives rife with typos and misspellings to see if there are nuggets of wisdom within? Maybe. But I literally find it painful to read bad writing. It requires more effort of me than I am prepared to give. Life is too short to read bad writing. That's my personal and subjective decision.
  
  You pointed out that you insist that your readers exercise their intelligence, and they rarely disappoint you. But you write to your readers as though they deserve intelligent communication, and those who appreciate being treated that way, stay. In the end, it's a self-cleaning process.
  
  I suggest that if you didn't make the effort to respect your readers, the type of reader you attract would be very different.
  
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  Paul Myers 15 years ago
  
  Collette,
  
  You appear to be taking general comments as being personally directed.
  
  See the last paragraph of the post to which you were responding.
  
  Paul
  
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  Collette 15 years ago
  
  I saw it, but I was under the impression the post was personally directed to me. No worries. All clear.
  
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traces2757

15 years ago

Well that's just great. First I developed a Warrior-crush on Vince and now I have a Warrior-crush on Paul. At this rate I'll never get any work done.

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ecoverartist

15 years ago

i thnk u can blame the txt msgs ur kidz send 2 each othr. its evrywhere.

Seriously, I've seen them turn in essays that actually read like that - spelling and all!

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Jeffery

15 years ago

Collette,

Whew, personally, I would be hesitant to write to you because my writing is very poor. Just sitting here imagining if you were to ask a "how do I" type of question and if I knew the answer would I respond. In my line of work I write answers to technical questions daily - seven days a week.

There have been many times over the years when people have told me my spelling and grammar are poor, but the answers are correct. For them, they understood and got what they paid for. That is why they keep coming back.

We poor writers do not mean to offend. At least I don't anyway. We are just people with our own faults. Faults or not, poor writing or not, I still intend to write and hope that it helps someone.

Jeffery 100% :-)

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Collette 15 years ago

Jeffrey,
I'm not talking about writing informally, as in a forum or a personal email. I consider those private forms of communication. And what you do in private is consensual between you and the person you're writing to.

I'm talking about your "public" face - particularly the "face" in your sales letters or your web site. The face that you show to the world as "a professional".

It has nothing to do with "meaning to offend" At no point did I say that people set out "meaning" to offend their readers. My beef is with people who cannot be bothered to clean up their writing before blasting it out into the public sphere. It takes just a few more moments to check your writing for clarity and obvious typos.

In reality, we are judged by strangers on sight. Why should we think anything different applies in the online impression we give to web site visitors?

All I'm trying to say - and I have said it repeatedly - is that your "appearance" online matters just as much as your appearance matters if you go on a job interview or an in-person sales call. So if you know that writing or spelling is not your best skill, get someone to help you make the best online, public "appearance" you possibly can. And, as I have said -repeatedly - there are resources for that.

Nor am I saying that every little thing has to be perfect before you take action. Far from it. If I believed that, I would never have started working for myself. Believe me, if I needed a job and I didn't have a suit for the interview, I'd go anyway. But I'd know that I would have to work a little harder to overcome that first impression.

If you wrote to me asking "How do I...", obviously you are asking for help because you understand you could use some help, and you think I might be the person to help you. Why on earth would I have a problem with that?

Feel free to ask me anything. I've responded to several PM's asking for help.

P.S. I am NOT a grammar copy. Just look at my own writing on this forum...
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mivasisa

15 years ago

I completely agree with you. When you are writing something, you draft that article assuming that you will not be meeting the reader. And as you are not meeting him, this is the only way you can reach out to him. Your writing speaks for you. If It doesn't convey your message in the way you want, all hard work will go in vein.
That's why i completely agree with you. Good writing skills, proof reading before finally sending it and checking for all grammatical mistakes is of utmost importance every time and each time.

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Robert Puddy

14 years ago

I once gave a proof reader a sales letter to proof read that was converting at 15%

when I got it back all grammatically correct it converted at 1%

I put the original grammatically incorrect sales leter straight back typos and all

Robert

PS: Paul in a previous thread on this topic, someone put up a link to a Stephen fry Podcast about grammar police, cant find it in the search here. did you bookmark it

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seasoned

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Robert Puddy

I once gave a proof reader a sales letter to proof read that was converting at 15%

when I got it back all grammatically correct it converted at 1%

I put the original grammatically incorrect sales leter straight back typos and all

Robert

PS: Paul in a previous thread on this topic, someone put up a link to a Stephen fry Podcast about grammar police, cant find it in the search here. did you bookmark it

There ARE a number of possible reasons for the change in conversion rate. ONE, of course, is that the meaning was perceived to be different. Look at the idea of "I could care less". Nine times out of ten, they mean "I couldn't care less". The meaning is REALLY 100% different, but often perceived to be the same. The first one implies that it isn't THAT important, but it IS meaningful! The second states that it isn't important AT ALL!

Some people say I use commas in lists too much and then, when they remove them, they change the meaning 100%! Who is to say that that mistake alone wouldn't kill or improve sales.

I once had an argument about "A hotel" being correct American english. The fact is that dictionarys say that, etc... It has been true for over 50 years. The use of A and AN is PHONETIC! In American English, and I believe most British English, the H in HOTEL is PRONOUNCED, so it is A! IF it were not pronounced, like "'otel", THEN it would be AN.

Anyway, I wouldn't blame "leet" speak or texting for this problem. It has been around far longer than that.

Steve

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phylma

14 years ago

I totally agree. I am positively anal about how my products and pages look. I feel it is a direct reflection on me and I see you agree.

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Daniel Deegan

14 years ago

Personally I think it's better to focus on providing value and making sure you come across in a clear and coherent manner to your audience. Obviously you don't want spelling and grammar errors all over the place. But the only time I would put a lot of effort into proofing my material is if I was marketing to an audience that expected perfect grammar,etc.

When it comes to layout and how you visually/physically present your content, I do think that is quite important. Making sure something is high on the usability index is crucial IMO.

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Allen Graves

14 years ago

Forgive me for not reading the entire thread before posting - I hope I'm not jumping into a fiestorm here.

I just wanted to say that spelling and grammar, in my opinion, are just as important as anything else when it comes to establishing yourself as an expert and gaining the trust and loyalty of your prospects and clients/customers.

Isn't that our ultimate goal?

With all due respect,
Allen Graves

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traces2757

14 years ago

Wow...I hadn't realized this thread was active again. I started this months ago!

Reading through the latest posts here, I just want to say that well-written articles don't have to be formally-written articles. Writing well crosses all lines. You can even write well and use slang if it's called for. If you couldn't, a lot of authors would be unhappy!

Other than that, I'm still a little surprised that this thread resurfaced! I thought it had long since gone to bed.

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Josh Semke

14 years ago

Has anyone ever tested the refund rate of an ebook product with a lot of punctuation and spelling mistakes?

I can't see how it would affect the refund rate...but it would be interesting to know.

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ExRat 14 years ago

Hi Robert,

PS: Paul in a previous thread on this topic, someone put up a link to a Stephen fry Podcast about grammar police, cant find it in the search here. did you bookmark it

I think it's this one -

Audio / Video - Audio - Series 2 Episode 3, Language - The New Adventures of Mr Stephen Fry

If not, there's a list here -

Audio / Video - The New Adventures of Mr Stephen Fry
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runfast

14 years ago

Great post here...

I'm told that the younger generation is losing the art of writing. That includes me too. It may have to do with texting and Twitter. Who knows....?
I pay to have my articles written so I don't look bad.

C U L8ER

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ezeey

14 years ago

I so agree with you. I hate it when your reading some enlightening information and then you see a spelling mistake, really puts me off. I am no expert and I make mistakes when I write content but i do try my best to get it right. I just use a word processor to check my spelling and sentence structure.

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Mark McClure 14 years ago

This thread's a damp squib compared to the holy wars ignited in Freelance writing forums...

I finally got around to reading Stephen King's "On Writing".
He recommended Strunk & White's "The Elements of Style."

Been avoiding it for years, but Stevie boy's rec is good enough for me.

Trouble is, a copywriter's reptilian brain, pseudo-wombat literary pretensions and 15 years in a far flung place, have me a trifle mixed up!

All your paragraphs belong to us.
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Andrew G Gowans

14 years ago

Hi Tracy, as a writer and writing coach, I agree with you 100%, However, as an internet marketer much less so.

Another factor, of course, may well be on which side of the pond we reside.

A quick example - I cringe when I see "loose weight" instead of "lose weight" - drives me nuts BUT take a look at the stats...

"lose weight" - approximately 1.8 million global searches a month, competition 45 million

"loose weight" - approximately 370 thousand global searches a month, competition 1.7 million with plenty of Adwords campaigns

Of course, neither are great targeted keywords but I know which ratio I prefer and there are a number of marketers making a very healthy living by deliberately targeting misspelled words.

When asked what the word "quality" actually meant, Dr. Edwards Deming has been quoted as saying "Quality means fit for purpose".

This relates directly to some of the other replies in this thread - what is the reason for a particular piece of writing and is it fit for that purpose?

Andrew G.

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hiphil

14 years ago

You can get a free word processor that includes a spelling checker from:
OpenOffice.org - The Free and Open Productivity Suite

Write a draft of, your web site content, article, email message etc. in Open Office Writer, and run the spell checker before publishing it.

You can also use this to create PDF files from text or MS Word documents.

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ChrisBa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by traces2757

I am a writer and an editor. It is how I make most of my living (so far). Though I make mistakes like anyone else, I try my best to to 'do' my best, especially when it comes to my craft.

Over the past couple of months, as I have been doing Internet marketing research, I have read through a lot of PDF files; some relatively short and some e-book length. I have studied people's websites to see how they are designing them and what the content looks like. I've read a lot of blogs written by Internet marketers. I have read marketing articles submitted to article directories. Although this by no means includes everything I have read, I have seen one theme pop up continuously: spelling, grammar, and punctuation mistakes.

I hate to see this become so acceptable. I realize that for many people writing and all that goes with it is not a strength--just like for me geometry is not a strength--but that doesn't mean that doing it well shouldn't be important. In the haste to get that sales letter or press release out, or to get that e-book finished or those articles submitted, proofreading and editing is often cut from the process. It shouldn't be. Trust me.

If writing is not your strong suit, let someone else proofread and edit your content before you call it finished. When your content is written well, you gain more credibility. When you gain more credibility, you gain more trust from your readers. If the writing seems hasty and sloppy, the reader may conclude that what you are writing about is not that important to you. If it's not important to you, why should it be important to them?

Just my two cents, and I'm sure some will disagree.

Hopefully stuff like this will make it better for yourself and other good writers. I hired a few content writers and damn it was horrible, i needed to correct several things in each article.. and my spelling and grammar sucks

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scattermouse

14 years ago

I think this just comes down to a matter of personal taste.

I hate to see spelling mistakes, and they jump right off the page to the extent that I find it hard to concentrate on the content.

I read the Wombat Report that Paul Myers linked to - there's one sentence in it that's supposed to be an example of something incomprehensible. I thought it was the best sentence in the report!

Whatever you put out there, there's bound to be at least one person that thinks it's wrong.

That's why marketers use split testing - individual opinions pale in comparison to solid data.

I would imagine some markets really want perfect spelling. In other markets, it may be an advantage to have all sorts of errors dotted around.

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pbennett 14 years ago

wow, this is an interesting thread for me.

I'm a professional writer. Have been for 11 years. When I write in emails or posts like this, my writing is all over the place. When I write for software developers who are in a major push for a release, I just give them the knowledge and don't worry about the grammar. If I'm writing in a documentation department, all hell breaks out if it's not perfect.

The part I'm struggling with right now is that I AM a technical writer. I find it difficult to write in a "friend to friend" voice. I'm not even sure i want to do that since I want my site to be an "authority" site - as in educational site. I'm a professional at telling people how to do something - step-by-step, which is where my blog is headed.

The question is: can you make money with "just the facts, ma'am?"
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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Mouse,

I read the Wombat Report that Paul Myers linked to - there's one sentence in it that's supposed to be an example of something incomprehensible. I thought it was the best sentence in the report!

You mean this one?

More commonly, a strict adherence to grammatical correctness and the expansive use of extended vocabulary can lead to awkward, if not incomprehensible, sentence structures, which can distract from the successful conveyance of your message.

It's certainly one of the most literate sentences in the report. But do you really think people want to read stuff like that at any length? When stuff like that isn't necessary, it not only detracts from the reader's enjoyment of the material, it's pretentious.

Paul

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scattermouse

14 years ago

Hi pbennett,

Teachers often use conversational tones with their students, so there's nothing wrong with using that sort of tone in an educational setting.

I think the real trick is to write for your audience, whatever style that may be. Of course, it's not easy to find out what style that is.

You've got a lot of experience so you should by now have developed a few different styles or "voices" of your own. I don't know for sure, but I'd imagine with technical writing that "just the facts, ma'am" is probably your best option.

The best way to find out is to test it. If you're not comfortable risking your reputation as an authority site, you can always try out a new style on article directories, and see how it works for you.

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Gail Sober

14 years ago

I've changed my mind since my original post!

I think everyone should check, double check, triple check and
then get multiple people to proof read everything for typos.

(Don't worry about all the typo search engine traffic, I'll take
care of those)

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foxtrot3

14 years ago

Mostly I agree with the OP. When I was in school, grammar, spelling, and punctuation were heavily stressed. But then I read Jeremy Shoemaker's blog. The guy is a terrible speller and he admits it and even laughs about it, and he makes a bazillion dollars a day. I think it's all about your audience. People of my generation (I'm over 60) go crazy when they see glaring spelling errors (at least I do). Gen X and gen Y folks don't seem to be that bothered by it.

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traces2757

14 years ago

There is a big difference between quality writing and "look how smart I am" writing.

A writer/publisher friend of mine showed me an article by someone whom he said was "the best writer he had ever seen" in his experience. I read the article, which was indeed filled with absolutely perfect spelling, grammar, punctuation and word flow. The writer went on and on about a subject, using big words and clever anecdotes.

What I told my writer/publisher friend (whose writing I admire) was that the writer of that article was no doubt good, but instead of really absorbing the message in his article, all I kept seeing was the underlying message "look how smart I am!" In other words, I found it pretentious and boring.

Is this contrary to my original post here? Not at all. Writing "over people's heads" to prove your intellectual superiority is just as bad as not caring about the content that you write. When people online say that they are writing for their average-Joe audience and therefore they don't care about spelling, grammar, etc., however, then aren't they insulting that audience?

I have no qualms using words such as "kinda", "sorta" and "gonna" in some of my writing if it fits the audience. I'm still, however, going to make sure I spell those slang words correctly. Okay, maybe there is no official correct spelling for those words, but you know what I mean!

The bottom line is that you can tell the difference between when a writer is adjusting his or her writing for a certain audience, and when he or she simply doesn't care what the content looks like, no matter who is seeing it.

I hope I explained that correctly. I'm still rather shocked that this thread is still alive!

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