Ever Outsourced to Pakistan???

36 replies
I was looking for someone to work on a RoR programming project and got a referral from someone my wife has done a bunch of work with on the legal side. The guy swears up and down that his guy in Pakistan has an India-based team that does great programming work at like $3 per hour.

Have you ever outsourced to Pakistan? Or Iraq or Iran for that matter? Feel like I'd be fueling the terrorists or something if I did it. But the price seems great if it worked.

What potential challenges do you think might exist with this type of oursourcing that wouldn't be the same as outsourcing to India or Philippines or somewhere like that?

Would my first wire transfer of money to Pakistan have the secret service bashing in my door an hour later? Gads!
#outsourced #pakistan
  • Profile picture of the author jan roos
    You're not fuelling terrorists mate. The people over there are just regular folks like you and me and yes I have outsourced there but not the cheap $3 rate so can't talk about that.

    The place I used to outsource does really nice work but they are not the cheapest.

    Cheers

    Jan
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    Would my first wire transfer of money to Pakistan have the secret service bashing in my door an hour later? Gads!
    More likely the FBI

    kidding

    You can do business with Pakistan just as you can travel to Pakistan if you want.

    Feel like I'd be fueling the terrorists or something if I did it. But the price seems great if it worked.
    That is on you, your conscious and your personal beliefs.
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    • Profile picture of the author Orkhan Ibad
      If you continue doing business with these principles, then you will hardly find any outsourcers working for you.

      Have you ever outsourced to Pakistan? Or Iraq or Iran for that matter? Feel like I'd be fueling the terrorists
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      • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
        Originally Posted by Orkhan Azer View Post

        If you continue doing business with these principles, then you will hardly find any outsourcers working for you.
        Hey don't buy anything from me.

        Just because my name is Mohammad I might be sending the money over to the Taliban

        j/k
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        • Profile picture of the author ColdFire123
          Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post

          Hey don't buy anything from me.

          Just because my name is Mohammad I might be sending the money over to the Taliban

          j/k
          Ha ha.....

          Anyway, the problem I had with outsourcing matters like free lancer is that the projects I outsourced to this person was also out to another person. So if you're looking for an outsourced personnel, better find a dependable one....

          Cheers..
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  • Profile picture of the author dvduval
    Biggest problem I have had in Pakistan is consistency. You can definitely find some good people, but they don't always have a good internet connection, may have a religious holiday or otherwise not be able to be online consistently.

    Other countries that are less expensive like Philippines are Bangladesh and Kenya.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kirk Ward
      Originally Posted by dvduval View Post

      Biggest problem I have had in Pakistan is consistency. You can definitely find some good people, but they don't always have a good internet connection, may have a religious holiday or otherwise not be able to be online consistently.

      Other countries that are less expensive like Philippines are Bangladesh and Kenya.
      Consistency is the biggest problem.

      There is so much turmoil going on over there that the folks I have worked with all seem to be short term and then quit for awhile to regroup. The low prices they bid, just to get work, put pressure on them to produce more in less time so they can go on to the next job, and disruptions frustrate them as much as anyone.

      Their work is generally excellent, but there is an abnormally high level of burnout, from pressures and turmoil (I presume). There is no difference between their religious holidays and anyone else's, no matter what the religion.

      Find a consistent coder, pay a fair price (whatever they are comfortable with), meaning be economical, but don't try to be a miser. Keep the coder as occupied as possible, and understand when they get burnt out that there is a lot going on over there.
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      • Profile picture of the author lerxtjr
        I usually like to quote lines in my responses, but there are just so many great comments to this thread that I'll just throw out an overall "Great! Thanks!" to everyone. Feeling much more comfy with this project.
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        • Profile picture of the author bgmacaw
          I'll have to agree with what others have said about consistency. The problem seems to have more to do with the lack of political and social stability of the country rather than individuals. After all, they're more or less in an area being destabilized by an ongoing war. You don't know if your remote worker is going to have an Internet connection or even electricity from one day to the next. They might be picked up by the authorities and detained for a while because their brother's sister's cousin knows somebody who knows somebody in the Taliban or something like that. You're better off going with workers in more politically/socially/economically stable areas of the world.
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  • Profile picture of the author thomarv29
    Use ODesk or backlinkteam.com to get the the best offshore team... I use both although backlink team seems as if they are redesigning their site as its much different than usual. However, Backlink team used to be the Go To Guys for getting not only a great backlink team but anything else you needed done to youre website. ODesk is capable of getting qualified people for under a dollar an hour which is never a bad thing lol Although i do feel bad about paying so little for all the work. With ODesk you have to manage the workers yourself whereas backlink team you had an american company doing all the managing and submitting reports. Hope that helps
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    I have a team of about 8 full time workers in pakistan and they work great.

    Its just the time difference that i hate as Pakistan is 10 hours ahead of US. So when it's day here, it's night in Pakistan.

    And no you will not be fueling the terrorists. I was raised in pakistan and people there are regular folks just like you me and the rest of the world.

    EDIT:
    Would my first wire transfer of money to Pakistan have the secret service bashing in my door an hour later? Gads!
    Didn't happen to me and I have been sending, on average, $4000 a month to Pakistan for the last one year.
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  • Profile picture of the author eMarketingStar
    I like Phillipines a lot better, they speak English very well which helps a lot i think. The communication barrier to India & Pakistan kills it for me. Its all about about finding the right people, if you go on Odesk or the like you will get bombed with Indian so called 'companies' [often 1 guy who then outsources like mad], direct referral is best i think.
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    • Profile picture of the author SantiSantana
      Originally Posted by crunchie View Post

      I like Phillipines a lot better, they speak English very well which helps a lot i think. The communication barrier to India & Pakistan kills it for me. Its all about about finding the right people, if you go on Odesk or the like you will get bombed with Indian so called 'companies' [often 1 guy who then outsources like mad], direct referral is best i think.

      I am yet to find an indian that cannot speak english. Must be because I met most of them while living in UK

      Generally speaking, the people that get involved in business tend to know that english is the business language so it´s kind of unlikely you will find an outsourcer that hasn´t got a contact person that´s fluent in english.

      Adifferent matter is if english is not your first language and you have trouble with accent ( my first year in London I was terrified of talking over the phone for this one reason alone.)
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      • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
        Originally Posted by SantiSantana View Post

        I am yet to find an indian that cannot speak english. Must be because I met most of them while living in UK

        Generally speaking, the people that get involved in business tend to know that english is the business language so it´s kind of unlikely you will find an outsourcer that hasn´t got a contact person that´s fluent in english.

        Adifferent matter is if english is not your first language and you have trouble with accent ( my first year in London I was terrified of talking over the phone for this one reason alone.)
        From my experience, language is not a problem but the accent is. Indian people totally understand me but I don't understand them and that is soooo annoying.

        Good for me, I can speak both Urdu (for Pakistan) and Hindi (for India) so I don't have to worry about language barrier because I don't have one
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay Zee
    Originally Posted by lerxtjr View Post

    Have you ever outsourced to Pakistan? Or Iraq or Iran for that matter? Feel like I'd be fueling the terrorists or something if I did it. But the price seems great if it worked.
    WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW

    Are you for real?
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin McNally
      I have used a guy a few times through Odesk and he done a great job, still speak with him on occasions through Gmail chat and he is busy with other work through a large company who seem very professional.

      As with most countries you will find some great workers in Pakistan.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    Guess I should go hire some terrorists to help me create a product on how to create a bomb. I bet this would sell like CRAZY on clickbank

    I'm sorry, couldn't hold myself
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    • Profile picture of the author SantiSantana
      Somebody did that already. I believe they ysed to charge you like $20 to send you the manual. It was big news in Spanish TV networks at the time (it´s a sensitive area here as most know).
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    • Profile picture of the author jan roos
      Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post

      Guess I should go hire some terrorists to help me create a product on how to create a bomb. I bet this would sell like CRAZY on clickbank

      I'm sorry, couldn't hold myself
      LOL Dang!
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      • Profile picture of the author lerxtjr
        They might be picked up by the authorities and detained for a while because their brother's sister's cousin knows somebody who knows somebody in the Taliban
        Seee? I'm not the only one.

        In fact, literally everyone in my circle that I talked to about this topic had the same response, which is what made me nervous in the first place.

        But, this particular company seems like they have a good thing going. So, I'm giving it a whirl.
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        • Profile picture of the author bgmacaw
          Originally Posted by lerxtjr View Post

          In fact, literally everyone in my circle that I talked to about this topic had the same response, which is what made me nervous in the first place.
          It's not that these folks are terrorists or even really know actual terrorists. It's just that people can be arrested and detained by the authorities for no real offense without adequate civil rights protection. This isn't a problem exclusive to Pakistan but is unfortunately common in many areas of the developing world. It is exacerbated though in Pakistan because they're essentially just behind the front lines of a war.

          For outsourcing, I'd recommend taking a look at Botswana. English skills tend to be excellent there, the infrastructure is good and the government is among the most stable, least corrupt and business friendly in Africa. The problem is that big international businesses and consulting firms have caught on to this and are hiring up the educated population at at tremendous rate.
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      • Profile picture of the author Piper Anderson
        I hired a few people from Pakistan to write some articles for me once. I went through one of the major freelancing sites to find them, and their prices were very good. However, their English was terrible (it was fine in their bids, but in the articles they wrote, it was atrocious!). I ended up spending as much time editing their work as I would have writing the articles myself.

        That's actually been my only outsourcing experience so far. I'd like to try it again in the future, but I'm a little wary. It's hard to trust your work to other people.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kirk Ward
          Originally Posted by Piper Anderson View Post

          I hired a few people from Pakistan to write some articles for me once. I went through one of the major freelancing sites to find them, and their prices were very good. However, their English was terrible (it was fine in their bids, but in the articles they wrote, it was atrocious!). I ended up spending as much time editing their work as I would have writing the articles myself.

          That's actually been my only outsourcing experience so far. I'd like to try it again in the future, but I'm a little wary. It's hard to trust your work to other people.
          It is hard to find anyone anywhere with English as a second language that can understand the nuances of common grammar, especially, especially if they are not totally immersed in the language for a significant period of time.

          In article writing, your best bet is to pay the extra to find a domestic writer. Even then, the chances are that you will have to do rewrites.
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      • Profile picture of the author faust1
        no issues..... many times outsourced things to pakistan and there are good resources over there....
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  • Profile picture of the author mark587905
    I use Odesk and the quality of the work is excellent.
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  • Profile picture of the author Teutobod
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    Here is an idea, quit being so cheap and hire somebody locally?

    I'm sure no matter where you are on the planet, there is somebody down the block who is out of work and could use a couple of bucks.

    Outsourcing and greed are contributing to why your block is turning into a third world turd.

    If you are in the US, here is the minimum wage by state IF you are in the UK... here ya go

    Just an idea

    .
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    • Profile picture of the author Kirk Ward
      Originally Posted by jasonmorgan View Post

      Here is an idea, quit being so cheap and hire somebody locally?

      I'm sure no matter where you are on the planet, there is somebody down the block who is out of work and could use a couple of bucks.

      Outsourcing and greed are contributing to why your block is turning into a third world turd.

      If you are in the US, here is the minimum wage by state IF you are in the UK... here ya go

      Just an idea
      .
      That's a tacky response. We're working on the internet which makes the entire planet a resource. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts you like using the resources which help your business the most, whether it's something you can outsource to another location or whether it's best resourced close by. You make your decisions based on what's best for your business, not what's best for some poor soul down the street ... even though you'd like to say you would. If you do choose your vendors because of pity, then you'll soon be out of business.
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  • Profile picture of the author gittar1122
    There are many good service providers from Pakistan here on Warrior and on every freelancing platform. I think terrorist don't need to work for few bucks as they have a lot of illegal resources. Even 100s of $$ will not get them a Riffle. Service providers from Pakistan are just like other service providers offering services to enhance their income
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  • Profile picture of the author keliix06
    You only need to be careful dealing with people in a country listed here: U.S. Treasury - Sanctions Program Summaries
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    • Profile picture of the author bobby_shahzad
      Hello,

      I am a running a outsource firm in Pakistan and I feel it is my duty to clear some doubts being raised on this forum.

      Here are some of the facts and figures about Pakistani freelancers [courtesy to Spider Magazine, most famous internet magazine in Pakistan]

      Average Rating of freelancers from Pakistan is over 95% positive across all freelance services

      Elance has over 5677 active freelancers from Pakistan
      Odeks has over 11218 active freelancers from Pakistan
      Freelancer.com[formerly GetAFreelancer] has over 1014 active freelancers from Pakistan
      RentACoder has over 5000 active freelancers from Pakistan


      I have been in business for over 7 years and I have never seen a single incident of any authorities detaining any freelancer. These are highly talented people who are more engaged in their work than any other political or religious movement. They work hard to make a decent living for themselves and their families.

      About working environment, there are two types of people (and this applies generally to all outsourcing destinations)

      a) Freelancers who work for outsourcing firms. These firms work in a office environment where they have been provided with all the facilities to work in peaceful environment. That includes backup for internet and electricity. Yes there is huge electricity problem going on in country but outsourcing firms have so much on stack they can easily afford to have Backup electricity in form of UPS and Power generators.

      b) Freelancers who work from home. Now like any other form of WFH job, this depends on your home environment. If you have 6 kids to raise and a big family to support, you can be inconsistent with work. But if you are living alone or with a wife and 1 or 2 kids, you can do justice with your work. Generally, these conditions apply all over the world and are not exclusive to Pakistan.

      And about the security situation, there is so much hype created by western media that reality is far from truth. Business is going as usual, specially in big cities where most freelancers live. People think there is a war going on here, NO SIR. You should see a WW2 movie to see what a war is like. A few bomb blasts here and there, they are like crackers. And those who do these blasts are very targeted. They attack military and para military targets, not a software house. In general, people here live in peace and do business as usual.

      I dont want to comment on political instability, there is more instability in inida than in Pakistan.

      About the English, well, if you have read my post carefully, then what do you think? Do I sound any alien? Did I make too many mistakes? And I am considered to be an average English speaker here so you can judge yourself what will be the best.

      In general, our people have a better English accent when working in Call centers or customer support desks, certainly better than Indians.


      So I would say you do some research about Pakistani outsourcing and freelancing before making any comments.

      Best regards,

      Bobby
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    That's a tacky response. We're working on the internet which makes the entire planet a resource. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts you like using the resources which help your business the most, whether it's something you can outsource to another location or whether it's best resourced close by. You make your decisions based on what's best for your business, not what's best for some poor soul down the street ... even though you'd like to say you would. If you do choose your vendors because of pity, then you'll soon be out of business.
    No. I just have a different view. Outsourcing, be it on the internet or Nike factories in China is killing my local economy.

    Hey, unemployment in your neck of the woods (Georgia) is only at 10% if you haven't noticed.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kirk Ward
      Originally Posted by jasonmorgan View Post

      No. I just have a different view. Outsourcing, be it on the internet or Nike factories in China is killing my local economy.

      Hey, unemployment in your neck of the woods (Georgia) is only at 10% if you haven't noticed.
      Unemployment in Norther Georgia is much higher than that ... even on a good day. We're pretty third world here ourselves. Ran a two line help wanted ad and got over two hundred applications in a community of around 25,000 folks.

      Meanwhile, outsourcing is nothing new. It's been going on for centuries. It is a classic "buy or make" decision. If a firm decides they can buy it cheaper anywhere thatn they can make it, presuming the product does not suffer, they will make that choice. And, vice-Versa. It is a simple matter of economics against social wants. Needs will adapt.

      Your local economy is going to have to adjust. Mine too.

      We use what resources we have available, and if resources cannot fulfill the need in a competitive manner, then we find those that can and will. Or, we do it ourselves.

      If our neighborhoods don't adjust in some way or another, price, skills or realignment, then we suffer. The guys that will perform, will survive.

      I should have studied more Machiavelli.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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    I've outsourced to Pakistan providers as well as many other countries and find that a good person is a good person, no matter where they come from. Saying that you'd be fueling terrorists by doing business with someone from Pakistan is like saying you're fueling rednecks by doing business with someone from Tennessee.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      I've outsourced to India, Pakistan, Philippines, Chile, and the U.S. Just use odesk or vworker (formerly RAC).

      As to the guy on the soap box, Wal-Mart put my Uncle's small town gas station out of business not some dude in Pakistan. There are plenty of minimum wage jobs out there. McDonald's is always hiring as is Wal-Mart. But if you think you're going to get a decent programmer for minimum wage in the U.S. then you've never tried hiring one. Minimum wage jobs won't get this country out of this rut.

      Even if they're out of work, good luck getting them to work for minimum wage like the link you posted.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kirk Ward
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      I've outsourced to Pakistan providers as well as many other countries and find that a good person is a good person, no matter where they come from. Saying that you'd be fueling terrorists by doing business with someone from Pakistan is like saying you're fueling rednecks by doing business with someone from Tennessee.
      Hey, we have more rednecks in Georgia than they do in Tennessee.

      How about fueling us?
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    Let me say, I am not anti-outsourcing. It has it's place.

    My issue is with those who I would consider to be cheap greedy *******s who don't care about anything other than making money and saving a buck.

    When I say you, I don't mean YOU. Now that that is out of the way...

    In many cases, a lot of jobs that are outsourced could be done by somebody in your local community and all it takes is an ad in craigs list. It might mean paying $7 or even $10 an hour instead of $3 but the greater good and domino effect it's going to have will mean more in the long run than saving $40 or $70 bucks a day.

    $7 an hour is only $280 a week. Don't want to deal with payroll, tell them to get a paypal account and go under-the-table. I can guarantee that you will find more people than you know what to do with who would love to be making $280 a week.

    I'd think some of the high rollers on the WF can afford it, we're all internet millionaires right?

    And don't treat foreign outsourcers like slave labor either. If you think your value is $20 an hour to do a job, don't expect your outsourced labor to do it for $3 an hour. And when they don't meet your standards when you're paying so little, don't bitch about it. You get what you pay for.
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