Autoresponder Experiment - WTF???

19 replies
My experiment, and my findings on ...

... Autoresponder Delivery Rates!

I just found out something incredible ...

I installed a simple, free autoresponder (I won't tell you the exact name at this time but it relies on php mail (considered by many marketers as not done because ~ someone heard that someone else told ~ it fails to deliver the mail)

I signed up to my own autoresponder with 5 different email addresses, including 4 of the major free ones.

Test results:

  • AOL: got the mail in INBOX - confirmed the mail - and got the first email
  • Yahoo : got the mail in SPAM folder - confirmed the mail - and got the first email
  • Gmail: got the mail in INBOX - confirmed the mail - and got the first email
  • Hotmail: got the mail in INBOX - confirmed the mail - and got the first email
  • My local email: got the mail in INBOX - confirmed the mail - and got the first email

I don't have much time to respond to questions, but I will keep you updated on this.

You all have a nice day!

Stefan
#autoresponder #experiment #wtf
  • Profile picture of the author Neil Morgan
    Hey Stefan

    For the Yahoo issue, you could probably fix that by installing Domain Keys.

    If you're on CPanel hosting, go into CPanel, click on "Email Authentication" and enable it. One click does the job.

    Cheers,

    Neil
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  • Profile picture of the author Neil Morgan
    While you're in there, you might also want to set up an SPF record because that's another system that ISPs use to check the source of email is authentic.

    The SPF record we have used successfully is:

    v=spf1 a mx ptr ip4:000.000.000.000 mx:yourdomain.com -all

    It looks a wee bit complex but you don't need to know what it all means. Just copy and paste and replace 000.000.000.000 with your domain's IP address and "yourdomain.com" with your domain name.

    Simple to do from the "Email Authentication" icon in CPanel.

    Cheers,

    Neil
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  • Profile picture of the author dawnbreaker
    Hi Stefan,

    If you can just share that auto responders to warriorforum users, especially to newbies will be a big help for them to start with their niche.

    And also, I congratulates you in finding this kind of auto responder, in some ways can reduce your expenses to buy your own auto responder.

    But one question, is their any differences for a free auto responder with aweber and other costly auto responder?
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  • Profile picture of the author Stefan Vee
    @Neil
    Thanks! I've enabled domainkeys. I have left the SPF record intact at this time as I am running several domains in one account (v=spf1 a mx include:websitewelcome.com ~all)

    @dawnbreaker
    There are many differences but my main point is that the majority of email messages ARE being delivered by many autoresponders, even if internet marketing parrots tell you differently. Like Neil stated, individual email settings may be the key factor here and not necessarily the software that sends them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Neil Morgan
    individual email settings may be the key factor here and not necessarily the software that sends them.
    Indeed.

    After all, email is sent in a standard format so the software used is not really relevant. It's mainly about the reputation of your domain and its IP address, proving the source is genuine and making sure your content does not trigger the spam filters.

    It's not some kind of magic.

    Cheers,

    Neil
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  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    These results seem great now, but what happens after you get some spam complaints. It is inevitable that you will get some. I would be worrying about the possibility of having my domain or IP blacklisted by the mail services. Also, if you ever did decide to move to AWeber or something similar, there would be another opt-in process that your list would have to go through.

    I'm not an expert on self-hosted autoresponders, but these are my initial thoughts on the topic.
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  • Profile picture of the author aandersen
    it's more complicated than you are making it out to be.

    Your test is only accurate if the email address you are testing with has never sent or recieved mail from the domain before. Once there is a successfull transaction in either direction it can white list the address for your account, and therfore future emails to/from that address/doamin will always hit the inbox, where a fresh account may still go to SPAM. If all 5 addresses are brand new, the test will be more accurate.

    Even if everything is legitimatly inboxing, it is not reliable.

    Your domain has no trust with the big email providers (yahoo is the worst) so as soon as Enough people hit the report SPAM button and you will start hitting the SPAM box accorss the board for that provider.

    To keep yourself out of the spam area, you must get added to a whitelist with each provider and that can take months, and of course the provider has to deem you worthy of being on the whitelist.

    Unless you have a dedicated server, your server's IP is shared by many users. If the server gets too many SPAM complains you will start hitting the SPAM box. So, essentially every user on your server has the ability to affect your inboxing ability

    If you are a shared/reseller hosting plan, at least wtih most hosts, your email will route through a common email gateway that will rotate as you send messages. For example on Hostgator shared it will be gator###.hostgator.com (where ### are numbers that change), and reseller is somehting like websitewelcome.com

    Your email headers will still show the message originating from your domain and server IP, but will actually dispatch from the email gateway. If any IP address/server on the entire route from point a to point b raises a flag, you will the spam box. Many of these gateways are already on the SPAMbox lists for these email providers.

    So you could be sending just fine on gator123.hostgator.com, then a few hours later go to send another round and they send from gator987.hostgator.com and that one lands you in the spambox. Next time from gator345 and half land in the inbox and half in the spambox

    Again, just like the server IP, you have to worry about other users messing thing up for you.

    The only way to set up a good auto responder that is completely reliable is to get a dedicated server and then take the time to set up DomainKeys, DKIM, SPF records, get them whitelised at every ISP and email provider known to man, constantly test them to make sure they are up to par and fix when needed, make sure all security issues are up to date (unsecured servers get blacklisted), monitor the RBLs and get removed if your server ever apppears on a list, and other PITA stuff.


    and there are other factors too, but these are enough to get the point accross. really it's not worth it, trust me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Stefan Vee
    @ aanderson
    Thanks for your input. That was very helpful!
    So what do you think about desktop applications like FollowUpExpert where one can send mail through a (if necessary different) gmail account? Of course there are some limitations here as well but there's no risk to have your domain blacklisted at all.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Stefan Vee View Post

      So what do you think about desktop applications like FollowUpExpert where one can send mail through a (if necessary different) gmail account? Of course there are some limitations here as well but there's no risk to have your domain blacklisted at all.
      Isn't there still a risk to your own IP connection, though, if people cry "spam"?
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      • Profile picture of the author aandersen
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Isn't there still a risk to your own IP connection, though, if people cry "spam"?
        Yes there is!

        Desktop autoresponders have even more problems.

        If you are using your hosted email account (your domain), you still have to worry about everything I listed above.

        If you are using some ISP/Web email (e.g., Gmail, yahoo, gmx, etc.) you have to worry about that provider's SMTP sending limits.

        Then add on top of that, you have to worry about your ISP's port usage limits. If they start seeing hundred of outbound connections on port 25, they are likely to shut off your internet connection until you can prove you are not spamming t3h iterwebs.

        Then, you must also remember what I said earlier about the headers containing every address long the route from origin to destination. When you send from a desktop email client, your home internet connection's IP address gets added to that list. So now, you must also worry about YOUR actual IP getting blacklisted when people hit that report SPAM button.


        I reeeeaaallly suggest you just get something like aweber, getresponse, imnica, or whatever else. These guys don't charge very much, and in return you don't have to worry about any of this.
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        • Profile picture of the author Stefan Vee
          Originally Posted by aandersen View Post

          Then add on top of that, you have to worry about your ISP's port usage limits. If they start seeing hundred of outbound connections on port 25, they are likely to shut off your internet connection until you can prove you are not spamming t3h iterwebs.
          I just wish I knew a bit more about that stuff. Your insights are really helpful. Thanks! If you could point me to an easy to understand book/publication I would be very grateful.
          On the other hand, from what I have heard, programs like sendblaster and followupexpert are being used by zillions of small businesses without any problems. The key is not to spam I think.

          Originally Posted by aandersen View Post

          I reeeeaaallly suggest you just get something like aweber, getresponse, imnica, or whatever else. These guys don't charge very much, and in return you don't have to worry about any of this.
          I do have my large lists on Aweber, but I am just studying other possibilities for one of my projects.
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      • Profile picture of the author Stefan Vee
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Isn't there still a risk to your own IP connection, though, if people cry "spam"?
        Hi Alexa,
        I can't imagine that if you're using a dynamic Ip address.
        Further more I have no intentions to spam people. We all have to deal with the occasional retard that hits the spam-button for no reason at all. The major email providers know that!
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        • Profile picture of the author aandersen
          Originally Posted by Stefan Vee View Post

          Hi Alexa,
          I can't imagine that if you're using a dynamic Ip address.
          Further more I have no intentions to spam people. We all have to deal with the occasional retard that hits the spam-button for no reason at all. The major email providers know that!
          Dynamic IP will not protect you, they can black list a whole C-Block, then your hosed.

          People will hit the SPAM button, even though you have an unsubscribe link. When you have no authority with Yahoo, Gmail, etc. that is enough to get you on their SPAM list. It is only through building trust that you can gain some kind of invulnerability to that button.

          Also, see my response above.
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  • Very useful post, but no surprise.

    Just getting the confirmation into the Inbox is Stage #1.

    But, it's obvious that certain free email account providers are more trusting than others.

    Of course, that's an oversimplification. People who pay for their own domain (and hence their own email account) are likely to be more keen and motivated than people who rely purely on free email. They're more likely to make sure that their emails are arriving successfully.

    Stage #2 is to get value from each subscriber - either paid or free. That's the challenge.

    Thom
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  • Profile picture of the author Neil Morgan
    Hey Alexa

    Playing devil's advocate, isn't your entire list at risk if too many spam complaints are received by your 3rd party provider?

    Contrary to popular belief, spam complaints to 3rd party providers have effects and consequences too.

    Cheers,

    Neil
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    • Profile picture of the author aandersen
      Originally Posted by Neil Morgan View Post

      Hey Alexa

      Playing devil's advocate, isn't your entire list at risk if too many spam complaints are received by your 3rd party provider?

      Contrary to popular belief, spam complaints to 3rd party providers have effects and consequences too.

      Cheers,

      Neil
      Yes they do, but those 3rd party companies stay on the ball to keep themselves on the good side of the fence and off the black/grey/spambox lists.

      These big 3rd party email providers send A LOT of email, and overall their percentages are good enough to let the email providers know that they are doing their dudiligence to prevent their systems from being abused.

      for example: Yahoo knows that aweber will not tolerate SPAM, so they trust aweber to handle their business and keep their IPs on the whitelists, basically.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    Originally Posted by Stefan Vee View Post

    My experiment, and my findings on ...

    ... Autoresponder Delivery Rates!

    I just found out something incredible ...

    I installed a simple, free autoresponder (I won't tell you the exact name at this time but it relies on php mail (considered by many marketers as not done because ~ someone heard that someone else told ~ it fails to deliver the mail)

    I signed up to my own autoresponder with 5 different email addresses, including 4 of the major free ones.

    Test results:

    • AOL: got the mail in INBOX - confirmed the mail - and got the first email
    • Yahoo : got the mail in SPAM folder - confirmed the mail - and got the first email
    • Gmail: got the mail in INBOX - confirmed the mail - and got the first email
    • Hotmail: got the mail in INBOX - confirmed the mail - and got the first email
    • My local email: got the mail in INBOX - confirmed the mail - and got the first email

    I don't have much time to respond to questions, but I will keep you updated on this.

    You all have a nice day!

    Stefan
    How many emails were you sending out...10k 100k ?
    because thats going to make a huge difference when the time comes...

    What was the complaint % ?

    If just 1 in a thousand emails click spam your domain is going to start getting blacklisted.

    If your on shared hosting then you have to worry about the other people sending email and the reputation score they crank up for the ip range of the server

    Lots to think about if your running email from your own domain
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    • Profile picture of the author Stefan Vee
      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      If just 1 in a thousand emails click spam your domain is going to start getting blacklisted.
      Hi Robert,
      Thanks for your input but I don't buy that. If this were to be true then ALL domains would be blacklisted.
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    • Profile picture of the author aandersen
      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      If just 1 in a thousand emails click spam your domain is going to start getting blacklisted.
      The key part is bolded. 1 in 1000 is not going to blacklist you, but it will start the ball rolling, and with what you are trying to do it wouldn't take long to be enough.

      For the record, TONs of shared hosting email gateways and IPs will go straight to spam. It's actually really annoying.


      Originally Posted by Stefan Vee View Post

      I just wish I knew a bit more about that stuff. Your insights are really helpful. Thanks! If you could point me to an easy to understand book/publication I would be very grateful.
      On the other hand, from what I have heard, programs like sendblaster and followupexpert are being used by zillions of small businesses without any problems. The key is not to spam I think.

      You have to remember what can be referred to as a small business. I have worked for some 50 people operations, that made 10 million per year, that were still considered pretty small businesses.

      If you have a fully functional mail server, and you just need an app to manage your list and send email, sure go ahead.

      This assumes, however, that you already have the infrastructure in place to operate a efficient mail server. At that point, you would already have IPs and dedicated servers, so getting yourself on a couple of whitelists is no big deal.


      But just installing something on your hostgator account or on your desktop to use on your cable/dsl/fios connection is going to be problematic for you.

      You can do it, but you are going to be lucky to pull a consistent 80% inboxing rate, and you can forget about using the word FREE in your email, you will hit spam for sure.

      If anyone tells you different, they are either trying to sell you something, they have never throughly tracked inboxing over a long enough period of time (or didn't track at all), or are just ignorant on the subject and don't really know what they are talking about.


      As far as books... Sorry man, I don't know of anything.

      Just set up a few servers and deal with some of the pains in the ass that come along with it. This stuff is not written in any one place that I know of. You have to run in to the problem first and then track down the answer. over time it builds up.

      You could start buy reading tech forums on the subject of how to get in yahoo and hotmail's inbox, and then read on the subject of getting delisted from the RBLs (real-time blackhole list).

      This is a start, kind put you in the right direction.
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