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Employee Padding Hours

by dvduval
29 replies
Have you ever had a problem with an employee doing good work but taking too long to do it? I'm curious what you did to remedy the situation.

In my case, I like the work mostly, but I can't profit from it much of the time because of the extra billing. Would you just fire them? Or would you put the pressure on them first? How would you go about handling the situation?
#employee #hours #padding
  • Profile picture of the author Joe Mobley
    I had a similar problem with an outsourcer. Good work but really padding the time log.

    I brought it up a couple of times hoping that she would take the hint. She didn't. She started out-and-out lying on the time sheet.

    I let her go shortly thereafter.

    I have an internal business guideline of not paying people to frustrate me. If people continually aggravate me, I get them out of my life. This includes vendors, contractors, customers, relatives, friends, etc.


    Hope this helps.

    Joe Mobley
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    • Profile picture of the author dvduval
      Originally Posted by Joe Mobley View Post

      I had a similar problem with an outsourcer. Good work but really padding the time log.

      I brought it up a couple of times hoping that she would take the hint. She didn't. She started out-and-out lying on the time sheet.

      I let her go shortly thereafter.

      I have an internal business guideline of not paying people to frustrate me. If people continually aggravate me, I get them out of my life. This includes vendors, contractors, customers, relatives, friends, etc.


      Hope this helps.

      Joe Mobley
      Yes, I am about in that place with this person too. I have mentioned the problem a couple of times, and they aren't getting it. Too bad, they do good work.
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  • Profile picture of the author The Mysterious Marketer
    How about instead of paying by hour, you might want to pay by project or tasks accomplished? And pay for how much time you think it would take, and based on the wages per hour you are currently using.

    Not sure if this is possible for your situation though...
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  • Profile picture of the author Defunct
    Originally Posted by dvduval View Post

    Have you ever had a problem with an employee doing good work but taking too long to do it? I'm curious what you did to remedy the situation.

    In my case, I like the work mostly, but I can't profit from it much of the time because of the extra billing. Would you just fire them? Or would you put the pressure on them first? How would you go about handling the situation?
    Easy, don't pay per hour, pay per task.

    People work at very different speeds.

    Just say I need this done for this price, can you do it?

    Per hour is a pretty terrible way to hire people unless you know and are happy with the speed/quality of their work.

    As a test, create a task, get 5 quotes on how long it will take and how much per hour and you can see massive differences.

    One programming job I needed done, one quote from someone who is a friend of mine was 8 hours, another friend of mine completed it in 1 hour.
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    • Profile picture of the author Meharis
      Originally Posted by Defunct View Post

      Easy, don't pay per hour, pay per task.

      People work at very different speeds.

      Just say I need this done for this price, can you do it?

      Per hour is a pretty terrible way to hire people unless you know and are happy with the speed/quality of their work.

      As a test, create a task, get 5 quotes on how long it will take and how much per hour and you can see massive differences.

      One programming job I needed done, one quote from someone who is a friend of mine was 8 hours, another friend of mine completed it in 1 hour.
      I believe it doesn't matter if you're paying hourly or by task. If the task takes too long it will affect your ending project date.
      Regardless of how you pay, you may try as I do with good results:
      1. Find an other worker for project "X". Establish a due date in common agreement and evaluate performance. If he/she is good keep the new worker. Assign an other task.
      2. With your "Old" worker give a new task and establish a due date in common agreement. If performance is not as planned, you know what to do...
      3. Always keep two workers dividing all the tasks you've. Let them know there's an other worker in your business.
      Don't put all you "work" in one employee's hands. You're the one should be doing the "squeezing" when necessary.
      Meharis
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewStark
    Sometimes it's better to pay a premium and get the work done to the standard you require. If you were to go through the hassle of finding someone cheaper and faster but you had to double check all their work would you actually be better off?

    It's at times like this that being a boss is rubbish, just think back to when you were an employee - did you always give 100%?
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  • Profile picture of the author dvduval
    Unfortunately, in my situation I have to pay by the hour. I have been successful a couple of time in saying "this task should not take more than X hours". But then it either isn't done completely or still takes longer. The disappointing thing with this situation is they really do show promise, but they have worked for about 120 hours and I probably am about out of patience.
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  • Profile picture of the author trishworks4u
    I think my people do this to a very small extent but I don't pay by the hour. They are considered full-time employees and are paid bi-weekly. They are required to turn in weekly reports, attest to working 40 hours, and list what they've accomplished for the week, etc.

    I do treat them well and have made a great effort to bring them together as a team and make them accountable to each other. I think that when you have more than one, the benefits of doing this are huge - not just for you but for them as well.

    "Team Members" don't like to see each other slacking off. :rolleyes:
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    • Profile picture of the author dvduval
      Originally Posted by trishworks4u View Post

      I think my people do this to a very small extent but I don't pay by the hour. They are considered full-time employees and are paid bi-weekly. They are required to turn in weekly reports, attest to working 40 hours, and list what they've accomplished for the week, etc.

      I do treat them well and have made a great effort to bring them together as a team and make them accountable to each other. I think that when you have more than one, the benefits of doing this are huge - not just for you but for them as well.

      "Team Members" don't like to see each other slacking off. :rolleyes:
      Excellent point, and I do have several employees, so getting them to understand how they are falling short compared to the others is something I may try, though first they are going down to part time, and are going to need to show some small successes.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bill_Z
    When you say you mentioned the problem, what did you say exactly? Have you outright asked them why it's taking them so long to complete the task? Or told them that you expect them to finish the task faster? How much time are they padding?
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    • Profile picture of the author dvduval
      Originally Posted by Bill_Z View Post

      When you say you mentioned the problem, what did you say exactly? Have you outright asked them why it's taking them so long to complete the task? Or told them that you expect them to finish the task faster? How much time are they padding?
      Yes, they say things like the code takes time to study and the task is complicated. My answer is that other members of the team walked right in when they started and did not have as many problems.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joe118
    Originally Posted by dvduval View Post

    Have you ever had a problem with an employee doing good work but taking too long to do it? I'm curious what you did to remedy the situation.

    In my case, I like the work mostly, but I can't profit from it much of the time because of the extra billing. Would you just fire them? Or would you put the pressure on them first? How would you go about handling the situation?
    I have several outsourcers and I pay them by the task, not by the hour. Extra production == extra payout. I never have had any padding problems
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    • Profile picture of the author dvduval
      Originally Posted by Joe118 View Post

      I have several outsourcers and I pay them by the task, not by the hour. Extra production == extra payout. I never have had any padding problems
      In this case it is programming, and a little harder to measure. It's not like hiring someone to do 1000 blog posts.
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
        Any decent programmer can look at what you want and figure out in their head how many hours it will take, provided it isn't something like wanting a full fledged copy of Facebook or something like that.

        When hiring programmers the best thing to do is break huge projects into smaller tasks and hire those out one at a time.

        One project is set up the basic framework, one task is to complete a specific feature, one task is to get the design elements ironed out, etc.

        Hire each of these tasks out one at a time and only pay a per task fee, not an hourly wage.

        If you are dealing with programmers never expect them to stay within a specified number of hours to get anything done. Us programmers work best when we can do a few hours work then take a break for a few hours then sit back down and work again. We don't do well under time constraints and paying a programmer by the hour is usually just going to end up costing you more than you want it to.



        Originally Posted by dvduval View Post

        In this case it is programming, and a little harder to measure. It's not like hiring someone to do 1000 blog posts.
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        • Profile picture of the author dvduval
          Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

          Any decent programmer can look at what you want and figure out in their head how many hours it will take, provided it isn't something like wanting a full fledged copy of Facebook or something like that.

          When hiring programmers the best thing to do is break huge projects into smaller tasks and hire those out one at a time.

          One project is set up the basic framework, one task is to complete a specific feature, one task is to get the design elements ironed out, etc.

          Hire each of these tasks out one at a time and only pay a per task fee, not an hourly wage.

          If you are dealing with programmers never expect them to stay within a specified number of hours to get anything done. Us programmers work best when we can do a few hours work then take a break for a few hours then sit back down and work again. We don't do well under time constraints and paying a programmer by the hour is usually just going to end up costing you more than you want it to.
          In my case we are dealing with multiple programmers and hundreds of hours per month. It's kind of difficult to price out each task. Basically, we keep programmers that work efficiently, and let the other ones go (which is what I am leaning toward doing here).

          I actually used to price out each task, but found the administration painstaking. And often what would happen is programmers would lose interest if the task seemed to take longer than they anticipated. That had less incentive to keep working and it slowed down the work. It also didn't make as much as sense when you have programmers working full time.
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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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            Originally Posted by dvduval View Post

            I actually used to price out each task, but found the administration painstaking. And often what would happen is programmers would lose interest if the task seemed to take longer than they anticipated. That had less incentive to keep working and it slowed down the work. It also didn't make as much as sense when you have programmers working full time.
            Then get rid of any programmers who aren't meeting your expectations. I would put that in all contracts that staff that didn't meet a production quota wouldn't be kept around. See if that helps give them a little more incentive.
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            • Profile picture of the author TSDMike
              Dvduval,

              I've been on contractor's side of the conversation and might be able to provide an insight.

              I've been doing contract work for a large firm in my area for the past year and a half.

              After about six months, they informed me that they were very happy with the work I was turning in but they expressed concern that it was taking a lot longer than they thought it should, and subsequently had budgeted for.

              Essentially, I got my instructions, created the deliverable and billed for the amount of time it took. I never 'padded time'.

              Since they were happy with the output, I looked at my processes and looked for areas where I could 'trim the fat'. I made note of a few practices that were helpful to me but didn't really enhance the end product. I purged the unnecessary activities and was able to reduce my billable time by 20% without compromising the quality of what I turned in.

              In the end, they were happy with the improvement and I got to keep a client. Win-win for both sides.

              So my advice is that if you're happy with the work of your employee, it might be worth investigating where the extra time is going. Good help is hard to find. Perhaps you could have another employee who does the same job mentor him/her and see where the hangups are.
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              • Profile picture of the author dvduval
                Originally Posted by TSDMike View Post

                Dvduval,

                I've been on contractor's side of the conversation and might be able to provide an insight.

                I've been doing contract work for a large firm in my area for the past year and a half.

                After about six months, they informed me that they were very happy with the work I was turning in but they expressed concern that it was taking a lot longer than they thought it should, and subsequently had budgeted for.

                Essentially, I got my instructions, created the deliverable and billed for the amount of time it took. I never 'padded time'.

                Since they were happy with the output, I looked at my processes and looked for areas where I could 'trim the fat'. I made note of a few practices that were helpful to me but didn't really enhance the end product. I purged the unnecessary activities and was able to reduce my billable time by 20% without compromising the quality of what I turned in.

                In the end, they were happy with the improvement and I got to keep a client. Win-win for both sides.

                So my advice is that if you're happy with the work of your employee, it might be worth investigating where the extra time is going. Good help is hard to find. Perhaps you could have another employee who does the same job mentor him/her and see where the hangups are.
                Excellent post. I will definitely go over the time.

                In response, I will say that their opinion was the code was messy in places and also required study. The only problem is I had programmers with similar knowledge of the customer account solving problems faster.

                They really want to work, and are honest, and produce some good stuff. The main problem is there are bugs and it takes too long.

                Probably would would have been better to move on sooner, but I do like to give people a chance. I still have retained them for fixing a few issues, so they have some chance of redeeming themselves, but have officially cut the hours.

                I like the idea of another programmer mentoring them too, but that might not work in this situation, but great idea!
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
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            Originally Posted by dvduval View Post

            In my case we are dealing with multiple programmers and hundreds of hours per month. It's kind of difficult to price out each task. Basically, we keep programmers that work efficiently, and let the other ones go (which is what I am leaning toward doing here).

            I actually used to price out each task, but found the administration painstaking. And often what would happen is programmers would lose interest if the task seemed to take longer than they anticipated. That had less incentive to keep working and it slowed down the work. It also didn't make as much as sense when you have programmers working full time.
            This makes no sense. If you don't know how long a task should take then how do you know the person is padding their hours?
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I never pay hourly for anything. I pay by the project. They must submit a total price for a project and that's what I pay. That eliminates padding completely. Every task that employees do can be broken down to a price per unit plan.
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  • Profile picture of the author James Foster
    If you're paying by the hour, insist the outsourcer have RescueTime running during their entire shift. That way you can see exactly what they were doing during the time they should have been working.
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    • Profile picture of the author dvduval
      Originally Posted by James Foster View Post

      If you're paying by the hour, insist the outsourcer have RescueTime running during their entire shift. That way you can see exactly what they were doing during the time they should have been working.
      Hmm, I've never even heard of rescue time. Thanks for the idea! I assume it is similar to what Odesk does, but maybe even more detailed I hope?
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  • Profile picture of the author InternetSuccess001
    One thing -- it is possible you have underestimated the time required to do the task.

    Sure, you have been doing php coding for 10-15 years, but if this is a new employee, perhaps they don't understand a certain concept/etc. It is also possible that they do not feel they are being paid what they are worth, which is a possibility. If they do excellent quality work -- and the cost to get someone else to do it would be equal or more, you might consider revising the payment for this particular task.

    Is this the first instance? Or has it happened several times before?

    PPS -- is this an outsourced task, or a physical employee that walks into your office? If the latter, it is possible they do need some time to get familiar with the code, etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author zengetsu
    I have had problems like this before. The best solution is to always try to talk it out and see if there is any improvement. If you fire them right off then you got to find someone to replacement and take time that you could be using to make money to do so.
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  • Profile picture of the author DeborahDera
    Originally Posted by dvduval View Post

    Have you ever had a problem with an employee doing good work but taking too long to do it? I'm curious what you did to remedy the situation.

    In my case, I like the work mostly, but I can't profit from it much of the time because of the extra billing. Would you just fire them? Or would you put the pressure on them first? How would you go about handling the situation?
    You are responsible for your own budget. You should have an idea of how long a task should take and how valuable the end result is to you. Put a price-tag on the result and start paying per task instead of per hour. Guarantee your employee will work faster.
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  • Profile picture of the author om4w
    I use this software, its like odesk's but you install it on your computer and theres, it takes screen snapshots every 5 minutes.

    FlexiServer Screenshots (Presales)
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  • Profile picture of the author BlondieWrites
    I am a firm believer in paying by the project and not by the hour, for anything pertaining to online business. Unless you are where the person is, there's simply no way to know if they are truly working the time they say they are. When you pay by the project, the person gets paid for what they do and you don't have to worry about being taken in terms of hours worked.


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  • Profile picture of the author terrapurus
    Don't blame the programmer, blame your process.

    Rule 1 of developing - every programmer has different skill sets.

    Here is what you need to take yourself to the next level -

    1. Are you running sprints?

    2. Are you poker planning with your development team?

    3. Do you have a team leader cordinating the efforts of the team?

    4. Are you basing sprints off function points.

    Setting a performance standard for your team is one thing. Setting the bar at the equivalent of your best programmer however is another thing altogether.

    Also, look at this way. If your existing code is crap, even the best coder will struggle to get up to speed. A great programmer coming in half way through a project will always work slower for 2 months atleast than a bad programmer who starts a module from scratch.
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  • Profile picture of the author dawnbreaker
    Guyz, most of us saw only our sides! How about the sides of our employees?... It doesn't mean that every employee is padding their time...

    If your complaining about the timesheet of your employee... You must set and know how much time will it consume per project/task your giving to them... What till be the result of the task after the duration your expecting...
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