A Revelation (That will make you a lot of money)

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Tonight I had an epiphany, and all of this marketing stuff I've been toying with for a while is finally coming together.

Like, whoa.

The fact is, doing this information marketing stuff is really easy. It's just as easy as all those guru guys make it sound. Maybe even easier. If you don't agree with that statement, YOU'RE the one making it much harder than it has to be. I know that because I used to be just like you... But there's a cure for that and I'm going to share it with you now.

Here's the simple secret formula:

"Learn It. Do It. Teach It."

I forget where I heard it first, but it's one of those things that just sounds like it makes sense. It's catchy, and tends to stick in your head. Even though I didn't get it at the time I heard it many years ago, I remembered it.

But now, as I sit here outlining the info product I'm working on, the phrase is really resonating with me in a way it hasn't before. I wanted to take a break to share my small epiphany with you all here.

For years now, I've just thought of that phrase as just a cliched proverb kind of thing. "A penny saved...", "A stitch in time...", "A watched pot..." - But I was tricked by its simplicity, and I'm only just now realizing its incredible power and potency.

It's not just a fortune cookie reject. It's a self-contained business plan. It's how you go from a loser to a guru. It's how you go from broke to rich.

How? Just follow the formula: Learn It, Do It, Teach It.

Let's break it down bit by bit.

Step 1: Learn It. Learn ANYTHING - do a little research, spend a little time on the subject. But it should be something action based. Learn something you can DO. Learn HOW to do whatever it is. Learn the theory, the steps to execution, etc. It doesn't matter what the subject is, but it needs to be something actionable. This is important.

What happens if you don't learn something actionable? Nothing. You're going to get frozen up at this step. Paralysis by Analysis. The Fallacy of Information. You'll just learn and research endlessly, but never take action and get something done.

So take my advice, learn something executable, and as soon as possible, go to the next step. 79% of people who try to get into IM never make it past this point. Don't be like them.

Step 2: Do It. Execute on what you learn. It's time to take that knowledge and turn it into experience. See, knowledge is valuable by itself. There's no doubt about that. However, if you plan to achieve that position of expertise, that envied position of being able to get people to BUY things from you, just because you suggest they do... knowledge isn't enough.

The reason why is simple. If all you can do is repeat the knowledge you've gathered elsewhere, you've got no value to offer. You can trade on pure knowledge but you get by only by taking advantage of others. You're either taking advantage of their laziness (can't be bothered to look it up themselves), their hurriedness (just don't have the time to look it up themselves), or their ignorance (by masking the sources of your knowledge and pretending it's your own). None of those actions will do your karma any good.

And you can totally spot people who try to do this. They don't pass the sniff test. They just repeat what they heard like a pea-brained parrot, and they have no value to provide to anyone. They need to rely on a constant stream of new customers, because none of their current ones are satisfied with the recycled, re-hashed knowledge they've overpaid for. These "pseudo-gurus" are no more valuable than the source they learned from (which was usually free). Charging a premium for repackaging free information is predatory.

To be legitimate (not just to feel it, but to be perceived that way by others, you need experience, too. Experience literally doubles the value of your knowledge. It's the only real way to create new knowledge, if you stop to think about it. Now, after step 2, the things you know are not just theory. They become FACT. It's not just something that might happen. It happened. Now, when you repeat what you know, it's your story, and you've added substantial value to it.

And here's the fantastic part about step 2. You don't even need to succeed! Going through the process and failing has value, too!

Upon being asked about the 99 failures he'd had when perfecting the light bulb, Thomas Edison said that he'd made no failures. He'd simply discovered 99 ways to make a light bulb that definitely did not work.

That's profound for you and me.

You see, we often only think that a huge success is what it takes to make it as a big time guru. But it takes failure too. You can't just know what works. You have to know what doesn't work, what's a waste of time, and what will end up costing more than it makes.

Now about 19% of IMers never make it beyond this phase. Some fail. Some of those who fail quit IM altogether and give up the dream. Some keep their hope intact, but retreat back to step 1 and very likely get stuck there for good. And a rare few keep at it until they stop failing and succeed.

Ask any successful entrepreneur how many times they failed before they had their huge successes. I guarantee every single one has a long, LONG list of failure stories. No one who slams it out of the park on the first try can keep that success up for long. Why? They don't know what mistakes to avoid. That's one reason why failing is good.

The big reason why it's okay to fail - the reason why experience is valuable no matter what the outcome...

...is because it makes you better at the next step.

Step 3: Teach It. This is where only the rarest 2% will push it, and this is where extraordinary personal fortunes are made. This is the level above successful - this is the guru level.

If you want people to know, like and trust you - if you want to be able to influence your own "herd" of loyal followers and profit from them, you need to be able to provide a genuine value to them. And you can do this by being a balanced and well rounded expert. You don't just know what works, you can tell them what to watch out for. You know the good and the bad. And you know what? Having made mistakes is humanizing, and that helps build a rapport with your followers.

And that rapport is how you're able to make fat affiliate checks.

Now, I know some of you are probably getting upset with me calling people "herds" and talking about making fat checks off them. How can I turn around and say that, when I was coming down on the inexperienced "pseudo-guru" just two steps ago. Bad karma, indeed!

But see, this is different. Because you aren't just talking out of your ass. You've really done this stuff. You can make truly valuable recommendations because you have the benefit of real experience. You actually know (with factual certainty) what you're talking about. You don't just talk the talk. You've walked the walk. You're legit. Bona fide.

And you might have a "herd" and they may behave just like sheep, going wherever the shepherd leads... But you've got the experience needed to tend to that flock. The bad shepherd ends up with nothing but dried up old lamb chops. You eat the sheep once, and that's it. No more sheep.

The good shepherd, on the other hand, can keep his flock happy and healthy, and they willingly come to him to be sheared over and over. The shepherd makes a living off the wool, and the sheep get taken care of.

Now, I hope that analogy isn't too weird, but I think all of us here want to be "good shepherds", otherwise we'd be elsewhere scamming people, or hanging out on black hat forums, right?

-----

Now that's the process, but before I move on, you need to realize this isn't just a once-through process. It's a loop. Even better, it's a compounding loop. What I mean is: You learn, do, then teach. But by teaching, you learn your subject better because you're the nexus of the experience of your many followers. You can apply your knowledge and experience vicariously, and that only increases your experience, but it drastically increases the perception that you're a guru-level expert. At that point, the loop starts over. Learn better. Do better. Teach better.

It goes on forever and ever.

Now that's all well and good, but that's just a process, not a business model. And I said I'd give you a business model here. You can take that process, put yourself through it, and start profiting immediately. Okay, okay. It's not immediate. You only have to go as far as Step 2 before you can profit.

Here's the business plan: Learn It. Do It. Teach It.

Duh! What? There are a couple of derived steps that fit in between.

Here it is with a couple of additional instructions:

Learn It.
Do It.
> Record What You Did.
>> Sell It.
Charge To Teach It.
> Record What You Taught.
>> Sell It.

When I say "Record What You Did" I mean keep a journal, or screen capture yourself actually doing the task you learned about. This will be your very first product. If you're just going through this the first time, you might want to repeat the "Do It" step twice. Once to practice, and then once more to record your video, or refine the process if you're writing an e-book. If you're on your second or third pass through, you can probably be creating your product as you actually "do it" for the first time. Talk about maximum efficiency!

Moving on. I think when I say "Sell It" you know what I mean.

If you had a success at what you tried in Step 2, great! You can use that to sell it to people that want to make money. But even if you didn't make money with what you tried, you still did something. You can't make any claims about a financially gainful outcome, but lots of people might still find it useful.

For example, I spend a long time trying to get awesome at making automated blogs that made a killing with AdSense. I failed. I made the blogs easily, but I just wasn't making a ton off the ads. I decided to keep trying different things until I figured out a way to capitalize on the automated blog platform. I finally did succeed at that, and I'm moving to Step 3 as I type this.

But I didn't need to wait. I'm only realizing it now, but I could have completely left out the AdSense failure and created a product strictly about setting up automated blogs. Lots of people would have been interested, because lots of people would have had their own ideas about making money with it, or even just running it for fun. I missed an opportunity for profit, by not adapting and realizing the value in the experience I gained. Lesson learned.

Why did I fail at that point? It's because I didn't realize that levels of expertise are entirely relative. I'm not a blogging "expert", at least not to myself. There's plenty more to learn and try. I barely know anything, really. But I know more than most people. To them, I know a LOT more than they do. To them, I am an expert.

That's all an expert is - someone who knows more than you do about a subject you want to learn. If you're on any kind of path to knowledge, for every person you see in front of you that you aspire to, look behind you and realize that there are ten people who would look at you that way. Don't fall into the trap. Don't underestimate the value of your experience. Knowledge + Experience = Profitable Product. Period. (PPPPpppp!)

So we make a product. Boom. Moving on.

Technically, we've already eased into the "Teach It" phase. As we move into Step 3, all our followers are in Step 1, and just beginning their own journey. But now, you can really explode things and take it to the next level. Here you have the opportunity to actually teach.

Webinars, teleseminars, live coaching, membership site, continuity, etc. etc. I told you this was the Guru phase. This is where you demonstrate a higher degree of knowledge than your audience and you achieve instant expert status. Welcome to the guru club. Your reputation is made. You have superpowers. LOL!

Of course, you can charge for the teaching itself. I recommend you do. But don't forget to "Record What You Teach." Get that audio, get that video. Whether it's telephone audio over slides, or an actual on-camera of you teaching before a live seminar crowd - record it. That's your next product.

Now what's going to be really killer about this product is that you have the dual success of your first product, and your own league of followers who will recommend you, promote for you, and more importantly, buy again.

And this business plan is a cycle too. And even moreso than the actual process, the business plan starts looping back on itself pretty hard.

What I mean is, while you're selling your first product, you're already simultaneously Learning and Doing the whole "info marketing" thing. You've been recording that whole process too, haven't you? You should!

You know where this goes... Teach that now. Sell that now.

What do you think your asking price per product is when you reach this point? What do you think your consultation fee is? How about personal coaching?

How much money do you think you're making at this point?

How many people love every single thing you do because you're their "good shepherd"?

How many people are jealous because you're another one of those evil gurus! You're the "them" in their own personal "Us vs. Them" story.

Feels nice, right? Hell yeah!

That's enough teaching for me for tonight. Hopefully, I did an okay job and you learned something. Now go DO something and take your first step towards your own guru greatness.

K.K.
#epiphany #lot #make #money
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Money
    Good advice and another great thread, Thanks Keith and congrats on the "click".
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    • Profile picture of the author Ken Preuss
      Keith,

      You nailed it with this post! Well done.

      Where a lot of people get stuck is they are either 1) not willing or 2) too fearful to move to Step 2 - Do it.

      But as you say that's where the magic happens because you don't even have to succeed. How right you are about that. In fact the greatest learning happens when things go wrong. Frustrating but true.

      Love, love, love the idea of it being a loop as well which is 100% right.

      Thanks for a fantastic contribution.

      Ken
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      Coming soon for all you IM junkies... The Internet Daily Show

      A Secret to Success: Making serious money online or offline is not complex unto itself - we're the ones who complicate it. Simply sell them what they are already buying.

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      • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
        Originally Posted by Ken Preuss View Post

        Keith,

        You nailed it with this post! Well done.

        Where a lot of people get stuck is they are either 1) not willing or 2) too fearful to move to Step 2 - Do it.

        But as you say that's where the magic happens because you don't even have to succeed. How right you are about that. In fact the greatest learning happens when things go wrong. Frustrating but true.

        Love, love, love the idea of it being a loop as well which is 100% right.

        Thanks for a fantastic contribution.

        Ken
        Thanks for the kind words there, Ken!

        I think that it's not just lack of will or fear that keep people from making it to Step 2 and beyond. I called it "The Fallacy of Information" but it's also called "Information Bias".

        Wikipedia says: "Information bias occurs due to people's curiosity and confusion of goals when trying to choose a course of action." And also, "People often have a bias that the more information one can acquire to make a decision, the better. But often, extra information cannot affect our decision - what is not worth knowing is not worth knowing."

        It's not a character flaw, it's an actual structural weakness in the way we humans make decisions. We want to make the best informed decisions, but you can cut that into infinite slices and just become paralyzed. It's not out of fear, it's just an OCD trigger.

        But for those who ARE afraid, can anyone blame them? Many marketers in our space are adept at stirring the fear. How many headlines start with "WARNING: Don't Dare Do X Before You Read This..."?

        That even reinforces the information bias as well.

        You just have to draw the line. Give yourself a time limit. Cut yourself off. You should create deadlines and stick to them. It takes a little self-discipline, but just a little.

        X Days/Hours of research. X Days/Hours of product creation. You might not end up with a product that's as good as it could be, or even what you wanted it to be. But price it according to its position in the marketplace if it's not all you hoped.

        Then, collect feedback on version 1. Have teleconferences, collect critiques from your customers/beta testers.

        Implement the improvements, add another medium to the mix, then jack up the price and re-launch.

        Improve your products by increments. Don't try to make the perfect product out the gate. Perfection is a lifelong pursuit. I'd rather just make money, myself.

        Good enough is good enough. Get it done!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jared Alberghini
    Great share Keith... this is what the warrior forum is all about... sharing great knowledge... keep it up!

    - Jared
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    P.S.

    Join The Future: Telekinetic Marketing

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  • Profile picture of the author tomw
    Keith,

    A good post and some really good advice and direction. But and this is a big but, although the steps you laid are out are indeed pretty easy, you neglected to mention or explain the most important step when it comes to actually turning all of this into an income...

    step 4: market it!

    This is the step that most people have the most trouble with and so actually, it isn't that easy after all...is it?

    In fact you state that

    "this information marketing stuff is really easy"

    Yes, the post talks all about creating the info product, but nowhere does it deal with the "marketing" part! As I said, this is where the difficulty for most people lies. Do you have any idea how many people come up with products across all sectors, on and off line, often really good products, excellent products, but never make a cent because they have no idea how to market them?

    I know you mean well and as I said a lot of good free advice was shared but it's kind of like saying anyone can live in the perfect dream home in three easy steps.

    Step one: build your dream home
    Step two: walk though the door
    Step three: live in it

    Understand?

    Well done on the post. Yes, creating an infoproduct is child's play, but for most people marketing it isn't, otherwise they'd all be rich, right?

    Thomas
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    • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
      Originally Posted by tomw View Post

      Keith,

      A good post and some really good advice and direction. But and this is a big but, although the steps you laid are out are indeed pretty easy, you neglected to mention or explain the most important step when it comes to actually turning all of this into an income...

      step 4: market it!

      This is the step that most people have the most trouble with and so actually, it isn't that easy after all...is it?

      In fact you state that

      "this information marketing stuff is really easy"

      Yes, the post talks all about creating the info product, but nowhere does it deal with the "marketing" part! As I said, this is where the difficulty for most people lies. Do you have any idea how many people come up with products across all sectors, on and off line, often really good products, excellent products, but never make a cent because they have no idea how to market them?

      I know you mean well and as I said a lot of good free advice was shared but it's kind of like saying anyone can live in the perfect dream home in three easy steps.

      Step one: build your dream home
      Step two: walk though the door
      Step three: live in it

      Understand?

      Well done on the post. Yes, creating an infoproduct is child's play, but for most people marketing it isn't, otherwise they'd all be rich, right?

      Thomas
      No, I stand by what I said. Marketing is just one more thing you can Learn, Teach, Do. In fact, that's why everyone is here, reading this right now. Everything you need to know to make a fortune is right here.

      But the hard part isn't the knowledge. It's just making it to step 2 and actually doing something. Doing anything. The hypothetical people who you cite, ones that make info products and don't market it - they need to set it aside, and learn marketing. Do marketing (with the product they already have) and then teach on that success/failure.

      If you're on this forum, and you've been here a month or more, and you aren't making money whenever you feel like it, you either lack the written communication skills required, or you're not doing anything.

      Step 1 of marketing is finding a hungry crowd, right? Here they are. Right here. Look at the counts of how many people on each forum here - the WSO forum hasn't dropped below 300 users at any point I've seen. Step 2 is to find something they want to buy. That's easy too, because you can see that by looking at other WSOs that are killing it.

      Buy that WSO. Learn It. Do It. Teach It.

      See where I'm going with this? Still think it's hard?

      If you don't want to be in the IM niche, just look around wherever it is you learned what you needed to make your product in the first place. Most likely, if you learned it on the internet, you already know where the potential buyers are.

      Edit: I wanted to add that this is what Frank Kern did. He left the IM field, went into niche marketing to learn it. He learned it, he did it, and then he taught it as Serializer, then the Underachiever method. During those and other launches he was learning launches. Primarily, he learned by doing them. They were successful, so he turned around and taught THAT as Mass Control. Do you see now?

      If you think it's hard, you never tried it. Try it and you might be surprised at how easily and quickly you start making money when you just learn when to stop the "Learn It" phase and move on to the "Do It" phase.

      I stand by what I said. It's easy. I'd love to hear what you all think though.
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      • Profile picture of the author tomw
        Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post

        No, I stand by what I said. Marketing is just one more thing you can Learn, Teach, Do. In fact, that's why everyone is here, reading this right now. Everything you need to know to make a fortune is right here.

        But the hard part isn't the knowledge. It's just making it to step 2 and actually doing something. Doing anything. The hypothetical people who you cite, ones that make info products and don't market it - they need to set it aside, and learn marketing. Do marketing (with the product they already have) and then teach on that success/failure.

        If you're on this forum, and you've been here a month or more, and you aren't making money whenever you feel like it, you either lack the written communication skills required, or you're not doing anything.

        Step 1 of marketing is finding a hungry crowd, right? Here they are. Right here. Look at the counts of how many people on each forum here - the WSO forum hasn't dropped below 300 users at any point I've seen. Step 2 is to find something they want to buy. That's easy too, because you can see that by looking at other WSOs that are killing it.

        Buy that WSO. Learn It. Do It. Teach It.

        See where I'm going with this? Still think it's hard?

        If you don't want to be in the IM niche, just look around wherever it is you learned what you needed to make your product in the first place. Most likely, if you learned it on the internet, you already know where the potential buyers are.

        Edit: I wanted to add that this is what Frank Kern did. He left the IM field, went into niche marketing to learn it. He learned it, he did it, and then he taught it as Serializer, then the Underachiever method. During those and other launches he was learning launches. Primarily, he learned by doing them. They were successful, so he turned around and taught THAT as Mass Control. Do you see now?

        If you think it's hard, you never tried it. Try it and you might be surprised at how easily and quickly you start making money when you just learn when to stop the "Learn It" phase and move on to the "Do It" phase.

        I stand by what I said. It's easy. I'd love to hear what you all think though.
        Keith,

        I based my view on real words from real people struggling everyday with the marketing side of their business. From those scratching their heads and wondering how to create and sell an ebook, to the multinational companies that agencies like ours advise on their marketing strategies everyday.

        If this would not be the case, then there would be no hungry crowd for your MOM products, would there?

        The very existence of a hungry crowd for IM products and marketing products in general kind of validates my point...don't you agree?

        Of course, personally, I don't think it's too hard as I have been in real marketing and advertising for nearly twenty years. I don't sell ebooks or information products, I sell brands for a living

        If you think that marketing is "just one more thing that you can learn, teach, do," with the method you cite, then you obviously still have an awful lot to learn about it.

        As you point out in your OP, what is easy to some appears difficult to others. What is easy for me, would seem difficult for you. What is easy for you would seem difficult for those "ten people" stood behind you.

        Conversely, I'm sure there are things you excel at which would seem difficult to me, and almost impossible to those lined up behind me.

        Some of the greatest products you've never heard of have failed because of poor marketing.

        Some of the crappiest of products have made hundreds of millions because of great marketing.

        You laid out a great method for info product creation and I applauded you. I stand by what I said, you left out the most important step(s) when it comes to making money from it. And, attempting to borrow some authority by misquoting Frank's history and motivation carry no weight at all in furthering your argument.

        Thomas
        Signature
        STOP THE TRAFFIK: PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BE BOUGHT AND SOLD
        Help Us Rescue, Rehabilitate And Reunite Victims With Their Families

        STOP THE TRAFFIK is a growing global movement of individuals, communities and organisations fighting to PREVENT the sale of people,
        PROTECT the trafficked and PROSECUTE the traffickers.
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        • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
          Originally Posted by tomw View Post

          Keith,

          I based my view on real words from real people struggling everyday with the marketing side of their business. From those scratching their heads and wondering how to create and sell an ebook, to the multinational companies that agencies like ours advise on their marketing strategies everyday.

          If this would not be the case, then there would be no hungry crowd for your MOM products, would there?

          The very existence of a hungry crowd for IM products and marketing products in general kind of validates my point...don't you agree?

          Of course, personally, I don't think it's too hard as I have been in real marketing and advertising for nearly twenty years. I don't sell ebooks or information products, I sell brands for a living

          If you think that marketing is "just one more thing that you can learn, teach, do," with the method you cite, then you obviously still have an awful lot to learn about it.

          As you point out in your OP, what is easy to some appears difficult to others. What is easy for me, would seem difficult for you. What is easy for you would seem difficult for those "ten people" stood behind you.

          Conversely, I'm sure there are things you excel at which would seem difficult to me, and almost impossible to those lined up behind me.

          Some of the greatest products you've never heard of have failed because of poor marketing.

          Some of the crappiest of products have made hundreds of millions because of great marketing.

          You laid out a great method for info product creation and I applauded you. I stand by what I said, you left out the most important step(s) when it comes to making money from it. And, attempting to borrow some authority by misquoting Frank's history and motivation carry no weight at all in furthering your argument.

          Thomas
          Hey, to each their own.

          If you work in branding, you know that there's lots of money to be made by making marketing seem more complicated than it really is.

          And you're right, there are tons of things that factor into marketing: copywriting, graphics, etc. There are tons of strategies and tactics. But all of that stuff is about improving the marketing.

          Anyone can try marketing, and it's as simple as just making an offer. Anyone can do that, and I still stand by my statement that it's easy, because you just have to start.

          Every possible marketing problem or mistake has been covered here ad infinitum, with a multitude of solutions.

          What I'm saying to people here is don't try to absorb all that stuff BEFORE you actually start and do something. Do it first, see where the failure is, then seek what you need to solve that problem. But you can't improve on something you never start in the first place.

          Marketing IS easy, if you use what there is stored on this very forum.

          I agree with you that it's a simplistic representation, and since you work in advertising, you need a LOT more tools in your arsenal than is required to make a ton of money in THIS industry. Marketing is also vitally important as you say, but if you're making your own information products, "failure" doesn't mean the same thing to you as it does a "brand" - you're not flushing millions of ad dollars down the toilet if you do it wrong.

          Failure is very cheap in this industry. Therefore, go ahead and fail if you're going to, but don't let it be a failure of ideas. Make it a failure due to action.

          It's also incredibly easy to market a product in this space. Go to the WSO forum and make a post. Pay the fee. Done. That just doesn't sound hard to me.

          Will this work for every market/industry/model - no. But if you want to be the next Mike Filsaime, or Frank Kern, or Eben Pagan - yeah. The Guru info-selling model really IS this easy to get started with.

          Technical stuff I left out? Yep. When you're selling, build a list. Grow that list while getting JVs to cross promote with. Continue teaching OTHER people's students. Build a name, etc.

          The teaching element gives you the jumpstart on marketing, because you already have a pre-existing market for the product before you even fully finish it.

          How many people made a popular post here that turned into an info product later with an audience pre-primed and waiting for it to arrive?

          Anyway, you make some good points, and I'm sure we'll continue to disagree on some. However, don't let your disagreement with me serve to stifle people who need this push in the right direction. That's my real intent.

          Edit: and if I'm misquoting Frank's history, I'm repeating what he himself has said. I did reframe it to fit my example, but that's the way he tells it. In fact, his real start was way back selling "make money online" stuff right out of the gate. How many times have you heard that can't be done? It certainly can, if you follow my method and start small, building credibility along with your experience.
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          • Profile picture of the author tomw
            Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post

            Hey, to each their own.

            If you work in branding, you know that there's lots of money to be made by making marketing seem more complicated than it really is.

            And you're right, there are tons of things that factor into marketing: copywriting, graphics, etc. There are tons of strategies and tactics. But all of that stuff is about improving the marketing.

            Anyone can try marketing, and it's as simple as just making an offer. Anyone can do that, and I still stand by my statement that it's easy, because you just have to start.

            Every possible marketing problem or mistake has been covered here ad infinitum, with a multitude of solutions.

            What I'm saying to people here is don't try to absorb all that stuff BEFORE you actually start and do something. Do it first, see where the failure is, then seek what you need to solve that problem. But you can't improve on something you never start in the first place.

            Marketing IS easy, if you use what there is stored on this very forum.

            I agree with you that it's a simplistic representation, and since you work in advertising, you need a LOT more tools in your arsenal than is required to make a ton of money in THIS industry. Marketing is also vitally important as you say, but if you're making your own information products, "failure" doesn't mean the same thing to you as it does a "brand" - you're not flushing millions of ad dollars down the toilet if you do it wrong.

            Failure is very cheap in this industry. Therefore, go ahead and fail if you're going to, but don't let it be a failure of ideas. Make it a failure due to action.

            It's also incredibly easy to market a product in this space. Go to the WSO forum and make a post. Pay the fee. Done. That just doesn't sound hard to me.

            Will this work for every market/industry/model - no. But if you want to be the next Mike Filsaime, or Frank Kern, or Eben Pagan - yeah. The Guru info-selling model really IS this easy to get started with.

            Technical stuff I left out? Yep. When you're selling, build a list. Grow that list while getting JVs to cross promote with. Continue teaching OTHER people's students. Build a name, etc.

            The teaching element gives you the jumpstart on marketing, because you already have a pre-existing market for the product before you even fully finish it.

            How many people made a popular post here that turned into an info product later with an audience pre-primed and waiting for it to arrive?

            Anyway, you make some good points, and I'm sure we'll continue to disagree on some. However, don't let your disagreement with me serve to stifle people who need this push in the right direction. That's my real intent.

            Edit: and if I'm misquoting Frank's history, I'm repeating what he himself has said. I did reframe it to fit my example, but that's the way he tells it. In fact, his real start was way back selling "make money online" stuff right out of the gate. How many times have you heard that can't be done? It certainly can, if you follow my method and start small, building credibility along with your experience.
            As you say, to each their own. You make some good points too.

            However, failure is only cheap in ANY sector as long as you can afford to swallow the losses.

            This is NOT the case for many here and many betting all of their hopes and dreams on MOM products.

            One of the wonderful things about marketing is that is is trackable, measurable, scalable, and thus "predictable" to quite a degree. The results of which are all around us to learn from. Just ask Google.

            As such, there are countless ways of leveraging these insights and strategies in order to maximise the chances of success. No serious marketer would adopt such a hit and hope mindset. Surely it is better to advise people to seek out and learn from the huge and plentiful supply of resources, freely available for developing a more concrete approach before they commit their money to test their failures.

            We all learn from these, for sure, but the greatest skill a marketer can have is to devise a strategy that minimises and even eradicates the chances of striking out.

            The last thing is that I'm not here to learn how to make money online, although I learn something new here almost every day, either about business or life. I choose to spend time here to offer what I can to those that may need a gentle shove in the right direction. If I ever did release an info product it would not be for the money. Yes an extra income stream is nice to have but I don't really need it. The product would simply be to help and it would be priced accordingly. This simple change of focus leads to much more than monetary or material gain and this is what really interests me now.

            In fact, my friend, you have given ME an idea for an infoproduct!



            Thomas

            P.S. Frank says a lot of things that people want to hear...don't believe them all...he's a great marketer after all
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            • Profile picture of the author Tina Tiano
              Great post ...very thought provoking. And thanks for reminding me about learn-do-teach. I had learned this a long time ago and had forgotten about it.
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            • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
              Originally Posted by tomw View Post

              As you say, to each their own. You make some good points too.
              Thanks!

              Originally Posted by tomw View Post

              However, failure is only cheap in ANY sector as long as you can afford to swallow the losses.
              Agree 100% - I feel bad for inventors of physical products or restauranteurs going broke because of the reality of the e-myth. THIS industry though is VERY cheap to fail in. PPC is the only thing I can think of that can eat up your money too fast if you do it badly.

              Originally Posted by tomw View Post

              This is NOT the case for many here and many betting all of their hopes and dreams on MOM products.

              One of the wonderful things about marketing is that is is trackable, measurable, scalable, and thus "predictable" to quite a degree. The results of which are all around us to learn from. Just ask Google.
              Yep. Again, agree 100%.

              Originally Posted by tomw View Post

              As such, there are countless ways of leveraging these insights and strategies in order to maximise the chances of success. No serious marketer would adopt such a hit and hope mindset. Surely it is better to advise people to seek out and learn from the huge and plentiful supply of resources, freely available for developing a more concrete approach before they commit their money to test their failures.
              Yeah, that's why I say to LEARN first, but at some point, you will hit a wall where additional information will have no affect on the outcome. For example, when I was trying to learn how to make automated adsense blogs, I bought and researched WAY more than was needed to actually just start it and go. There WAS no real loss. The fear of doing it "wrong" was a foolish delay. I'm not saying not to learn, but rather the importance of ending that phase.

              Originally Posted by tomw View Post

              We all learn from these, for sure, but the greatest skill a marketer can have is to devise a strategy that minimises and even eradicates the chances of striking out.
              Yeah, but I tend to think that you'll arrive at that faster by learning while doing. Not necessarily building it out of failures because you're re-inventing the wheel or re-blazing old trails. Don't repeat the old mistakes, but don't be afraid to make your own, NEW mistakes.

              Originally Posted by tomw View Post

              The last thing is that I'm not here to learn how to make money online, although I learn something new here almost every day, either about business or life. I choose to spend time here to offer what I can to those that may need a gentle shove in the right direction. If I ever did release an info product it would not be for the money. Yes an extra income stream is nice to have but I don't really need it. The product would simply be to help and it would be priced accordingly. This simple change of focus leads to much more than monetary or material gain and this is what really interests me now.
              Yes, absolutely. Making money is only one possible outcome of my process. It's an outgrowth of actually attracting attention and providing a beneficial experience to others. It's up to the individual what they demand in return for what they're teaching. You can take the "Sell It" part out completely if you want to be altruistic. Or you can be all Jay Abraham and go for preeminence so you can charge a high premium. I like to go for the latter, not so much because I'm all about the money, but rather if I'm going to teach, it's going to involve me personally on support, and I value my own time very highly.

              Originally Posted by tomw View Post

              In fact, my friend, you have given ME an idea for an infoproduct!
              Kickass! Can't wait to see it! I know the insight into your background and experience will really make it valuable to others here. You're someone whose ideas are more worthy of attention because you've walked that walk as I said.

              Originally Posted by tomw View Post

              P.S. Frank says a lot of things that people want to hear...don't believe them all...he's a great marketer after all
              Storytelling, baby.
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  • Profile picture of the author MeTellYou
    Thank you. I had a small lightbulb moment myself yesterday, and it was about information production too. See what I realized is that I started making money online, and now I can teach it.
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  • Profile picture of the author mdunn123
    Awesome post! I was only able to read through half of it before I had to rush out the door but can't wait to wrap it up again when I get back.
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  • Profile picture of the author xlfutur1
    Keith, that is the best post I've read all day, maybe all week.

    I've been making screen capture videos recently of some stuff that I do all the time but never documented. Once you get in the habit of doing this kind of thing it is amazing how fast you can build a training library of "stuff" that people will pay for down the road to know how to do.

    Doing just one 5 minute video per day is 365 training videos in one year. Enough for a big membership site, or multiple how to DVDs to sell on Ebay, over and over again.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Henderson
      Originally Posted by xlfutur1 View Post

      Keith, that is the best post I've read all day, maybe all week.
      For me, possibly the best post all month.

      Keith, I have a list of about a dozen audiobook titles that I'd like to create. I feel very confident about some of them and am eager to get started. But others on the list cause me to feel some trepidation; I've done my research and read the theory, but I just didn't feel confident about starting.

      Then today, I stumbled upon this thread. As soon as I compared my list with your "Learn it, do it, teach it" axiom, I found a direct correlation: the audiobook subjects that I'd done were the ones that I was eager to write about. But the titles that I'd only researched (albeit thoroughly) were the ones that I was hesitant about authoring.

      Thanks to you Keith, I now know what to..... DO!

      You've also given me a great insight into my own difficulties in progressing with work by bringing my attention to "information bias".

      So once again, thank you Keith. I shall keep my eyes open for more of your posts in future!
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      • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
        Originally Posted by tomw View Post

        Thanks for the great (and detailed!) reply Keith.

        I think I actually will create this product. Need to plan some time in the schedule and rope in a few old croneys, but yeah, I think it really would be valuable to many.

        It goes without saying you'll be receiving a complimentary free membership/copy or whatever form it takes.

        What a great thread! What a great virtual conversation!



        Take it easy, my friend.

        Thomas
        Kickass! I agree, this has been a fruitful debate, and I thank you for helping me clarify my points. I think if I were to re-write this, a lot of my responses to you would be added to the original. Let me know when the product is ready for proofing, beta or whatever. If you want to give me a free copy, I won't say no, but I can at least offer to do something to earn it.

        Thanks for your generosity, my friend!

        Originally Posted by John Henderson View Post

        For me, possibly the best post all month.

        Keith, I have a list of about a dozen audiobook titles that I'd like to create. I feel very confident about some of them and am eager to get started. But others on the list cause me to feel some trepidation; I've done my research and read the theory, but I just didn't feel confident about starting.

        Then today, I stumbled upon this thread. As soon as I compared my list with your "Learn it, do it, teach it" axiom, I found a direct correlation: the audiobook subjects that I'd done were the ones that I was eager to write about. But the titles that I'd only researched (albeit thoroughly) were the ones that I was hesitant about authoring.

        Thanks to you Keith, I now know what to..... DO!

        You've also given me a great insight into my own difficulties in progressing with work by bringing my attention to "information bias".

        So once again, thank you Keith. I shall keep my eyes open for more of your posts in future!
        That's just awesome John. I'm glad my little epiphany was something you were able to use. If I got responses like this more often, I'd never get any work done because getting this kind of reaction sure is addicting!

        I need to invent the cure for information bias. I'd be a billionaire!

        And also, not to single you out, but your last statement about following what I say - I don't know if you did it on purpose, but you sort of proved my earlier point. I learned something, and then I taught it as best I could. Now I have someone in my "herd" who wants to follow more. If I were going to be selling something down the line, you're already feeling my "halo effect". Now, when I re-tell the story of this concept, I can talk about your experience, and that adds to the power of my own story.

        After all this discussion, I feel like I understand my own ideas better, and for me, this process is already looping back around.
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        • Profile picture of the author The Wanderer
          Keith, this is great stuff. Thanks for reminding me of the Learn, Do, Teach model. A coach suggested it several years ago as a particularly good model for people like me, who love to learn new things, but who quickly get bored once they know how to do something.

          I'd already had a small epiphany of my own, to the effect that I needed to concentrate on doing things which would make use of my strengths and stop trying to follow systems that required me to spend most of my time on things I'm bad at, so the reminder was timely. Niche websites or blogs that I can either keep or flip depending on my level of interest seem like a good prospect for me. I've got a couple up now and I'm working on using your automated niche blog information on one of them. I'm also working on a couple of products of my own for a couple of areas I already know well.

          Thanks for the valuable information and inspiring discussions!
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          • Thomas and Keith,

            This has got to be one of the best discussions/posts that
            I have seen in ANY forum. You two should seriously consider
            getting together and coming up with a product together.

            I know that I would jump on the chance to get a copy of
            anything that you came up with.

            A lot of what you guys just posted would cost mega-bucks
            in some of the super-gurus' webinars and seminars.

            Just my 2 cents.

            Cheers,
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            • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
              Originally Posted by The Wanderer View Post

              Keith, this is great stuff. Thanks for reminding me of the Learn, Do, Teach model. A coach suggested it several years ago as a particularly good model for people like me, who love to learn new things, but who quickly get bored once they know how to do something.
              Thanks for saying so! Glad you like it! I have the very same problem you describe. I have a thirst for knowledge and a hacker/tinkerer mind. But my interests are very broad, and my attention is very scattered. By putting myself through a formalized process like the one I describe helps me capitalize on what I'm already doing. In other words, there's no wasted energy or effort. It's drastically multiplied my productivity.

              Originally Posted by The Wanderer View Post

              I'd already had a small epiphany of my own, to the effect that I needed to concentrate on doing things which would make use of my strengths and stop trying to follow systems that required me to spend most of my time on things I'm bad at, so the reminder was timely. Niche websites or blogs that I can either keep or flip depending on my level of interest seem like a good prospect for me. I've got a couple up now and I'm working on using your automated niche blog information on one of them. I'm also working on a couple of products of my own for a couple of areas I already know well.
              Wonderful! I'm glad you like that other post of mine as well. From how you describe yourself, I think it'll be a good fit for your particular aptitudes. At least it was for me, and you seem to have a similar modus operandi to myself.

              Best of luck to you, and just let me know if you ever need any encouragement or have any questions along the way. I'd love to help out if I can.

              Originally Posted by Denice S. Anderson View Post

              Thomas and Keith,

              This has got to be one of the best discussions/posts that
              I have seen in ANY forum. You two should seriously consider
              getting together and coming up with a product together.

              I know that I would jump on the chance to get a copy of
              anything that you came up with.

              A lot of what you guys just posted would cost mega-bucks
              in some of the super-gurus' webinars and seminars.

              Just my 2 cents.

              Cheers,
              Denice, what a nice thing to say! I'm embarrassed, really. I'm open to any and all possibilities. Maybe there's something in the cards for a future collaboration? I don't know. I just "met" Thomas today.

              However, I aspire to one day be making mega bucks for the stuff I like to do anyway. That's the "guru dream" to me. All of the guys I admire: Pagan, Kern, et al. it's not that they can do more or are capable of more than anyone here. It's that they've carefully engineered events so that they can get paid a premium for every little effort they make.

              Okay - that's it for now. I'm off to get some work done!
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  • Profile picture of the author tomw
    Thanks for the great (and detailed!) reply Keith.

    I think I actually will create this product. Need to plan some time in the schedule and rope in a few old croneys, but yeah, I think it really would be valuable to many.

    It goes without saying you'll be receiving a complimentary free membership/copy or whatever form it takes.

    What a great thread! What a great virtual conversation!



    Take it easy, my friend.

    Thomas
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  • Profile picture of the author Ben_Curtis
    "attracting attention and providing a beneficial experience to others"
    I think that phrase sums up internet marketing success.
    Kudos, Keith!

    Ben
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      Hats off Keith and Thomas!!

      Thank you both for providing some of the most intelligent, interesting and well-reasoned discussion I've seen in a long while.

      Forum-posting at its finest.

      And to back up one of Keith's points, too many Warrior members have yet to realise what a goldmine they have here right under their noses.



      Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author TheNightOwl
        Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

        Thank you both for providing some of the most intelligent, interesting and well-reasoned discussion I've seen in a long while.

        Forum-posting at its finest.
        Couldn't agree more, Frank. Well said, buddy!

        Not only is the information great and the spirit in which it is intended fantastic, despite the (initial???) differences in Keith and Thomas's positions, this thread really is a stellar example of the way an idea (or set of ideas) crystallizes and kind of clarifies itself through the process of discussion.

        What Frank said bears repeating: Forum-posting at its finest.


        Rock on fellas!

        TheNightOwl
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        • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
          Originally Posted by archer29 View Post

          Thanks Keith! I'm now working on "Another Automated Blog tactic" and it seems even easier than the first. I'm pumped! I can't imagine why it no longer exists on the forum.

          Note to newbies: Great posts disappear around here all the time. Save it to a pdf file if you ever want to read it again. I use the Firefox addon "Print to PDF". It doesn't automatically print but saves it as a file and you can print it later if you so desire.
          It's a conspiracy I guess. Confederacy of Dunces and all that. I learned my lesson - I save all my posts locally before I post em here.

          Originally Posted by Samuel Lee View Post

          Thank you for your post! A concise fuss free explanation, given me some great ideas for setting up my own affiliate program! Great post!
          Awesome, Sam! Glad to give you some ideas. That's the whole point of this forum, in my opinion. It's why I come here - that's what it does for me, and that's why I post like this - so I can give a little back. So glad it's working and kudos on taking action.

          Originally Posted by TheNightOwl View Post

          Couldn't agree more, Frank. Well said, buddy!

          Not only is the information great and the spirit in which it is intended fantastic, despite the (initial???) differences in Keith and Thomas's positions, this thread really is a stellar example of the way an idea (or set of ideas) crystallizes and kind of clarifies itself through the process of discussion.

          What Frank said bears repeating: Forum-posting at its finest.


          Rock on fellas!

          TheNightOwl
          Aw shucks.

          Thanks.
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  • Profile picture of the author tomw
    Keith, you already earnt free copy by inspiring it and on reflection if the product sells at all there will be a nice bonus coming your way.

    Thomas
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Thorne
    Another great thought provoking thread Keith. Keep it up buddy!!!

    Robert Thorne
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    "Evil Thrives When Good Men Do Nothing"

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  • Profile picture of the author Greg Cooksley
    Hey Keith and Thomas,

    Great dialogue......thanks for letting us be part of it....

    A lot of detail to digest...

    Regards

    Greg
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  • Keith,

    I just came across this thread, ironically enough from Googling the term "Fallacy of Information" that you mentioned on your self-growing blog thread.

    Learn it.
    Do it.
    Teach it.

    I have done this all my life, but I have never seen it stated in this manner. It's a great short mental routine, sort of like Frank Kern's copywriting thing a few weeks ago:

    Here's what I've got.
    Here's what it will do for you.
    Here's what I want you to do.

    I was delighted by your post to be prompted to shine a ray of focus on a specific point. Your idea of learning stuff that you do instead of stuff where no action is present set me off in a direction I have needed to go in for quite some time.

    I have a head full of facts of all kinds, from the most profound to the most useful to the most trivial to... well, whatever, and but it is a mishmash of action information and static information.

    Of course I have known that you have action stuff and static stuff since I was little, but I never thought of applying these as basic categories to Internet marketing. (I have been studying and working at IM--hard--as a career change for about a year and a half).

    I want to make one observation that came to mind while reading your epiphany. We all have to learn the ropes. From your little formula, this would mean learning what to do with ropes (action info). But you still have to learn what a rope is before you can learn what to do with it (static info). I believe the secret is understanding how much static info you need before you can run with it. Just doing stuff isn't enough.

    To keep on this metaphor, a rope is a cord of braided fiber. It's nice to know that fact as static info, but it is not necessary for learning what to do with a rope. You need to start by learning what a rope looks like and how it feels. (This goes for computer programs, too.) That is essential static info and there is no way to avoid learning that part.

    My own problem is that I like to learn the different kinds of fiber, forms of intertwining, thickness and flexibility specs, advanced knotting skills, etc., before getting around to tying a simple knot. Unfortunately I do new computer programs, new Web 2.0 sites, new site building, new niche research, new Internet everything, that way.

    So I go sl-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-wly...

    And I get aggravated at myself because of it.

    Now, when looking at information, I am going to start thinking, "Is this something worthwhile I can do, or is it static info?" If it is something I can do, I will see if I have enough basic knowledge to do it (using the kind of parameter I just mentioned). If so, then I will do it. If this info is static, I will see if I really need it to to get some work done. If not, I can postpone researching it until I have time.

    Interestingly enough, this is also a great way to establish a work schedule. Some hours are for action and others are for learning static info. (I love the static stuff, so there is no way I will ever give that up. I have a hunger for knowing what makes things tick.)

    But you just gave me this meat cleaver to make a basic divide with all that meaty stuff in my head and set a balance point for using it in practical terms.

    (Erggh! That does not make me a meat-head! )

    In other words, you have given me great food for thought. And action.

    Thank you.

    Michael
    Signature
    Know thyself...
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    • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
      Keith

      The important thing about making the videos as you go along is that they give you a record of the 'How' and later you can work out the 'Why'.

      Last month I had to learn a system in 4 weeks that normally takes 3 months to pick up. I made Camtasia videos of all the processes and added commentary. Half of the things didn't make sense to me at the time.

      But now I have the mechanics I am able to follow the process and I am starting to understand the logic of it, too. And when I get my own 'epiphanies' about a particular part of the process I make a note of it so I can make more polished videos down the line which include both the 'How' and the 'Why'.

      Thanks for the post and to TomW for his input.

      Martin
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      • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
        Originally Posted by Michael Stuart Kelly View Post

        Keith,

        I just came across this thread, ironically enough from Googling the term "Fallacy of Information" that you mentioned on your self-growing blog thread.
        Yeah, self reference is a habit of mine. It's handy here, for this very reason! Glad you got some use out of my material here!

        Originally Posted by Michael Stuart Kelly View Post

        I have done this all my life, but I have never seen it stated in this manner. It's a great short mental routine, sort of like Frank Kern's copywriting thing a few weeks ago:

        Here's what I've got.
        Here's what it will do for you.
        Here's what I want you to do.
        That's a favorite of mine too. It actually comes from John Carlton, but if anyone ever has trouble copywriting, it doesn't need to be harder than that right there.

        Originally Posted by Michael Stuart Kelly View Post

        I was delighted by your post to be prompted to shine a ray of focus on a specific point. Your idea of learning stuff that you do instead of stuff where no action is present set me off in a direction I have needed to go in for quite some time.
        Awesome! Glad to hear it!

        Originally Posted by Michael Stuart Kelly View Post

        I want to make one observation that came to mind while reading your epiphany. We all have to learn the ropes. From your little formula, this would mean learning what to do with ropes (action info). But you still have to learn what a rope is before you can learn what to do with it (static info). I believe the secret is understanding how much static info you need before you can run with it. Just doing stuff isn't enough.
        Yes, that's it exactly. All the learning and preparation in the world is useless unless you're taking action. It's about getting stuff done and making adjustments as you go. Build momentum, instead of planning and planning and planning for a big thing that gets farther and farther away.

        Originally Posted by Michael Stuart Kelly View Post

        In other words, you have given me great food for thought. And action.

        Thank you.

        Michael
        You're quite welcome! And even though I snipped it out, I dig the rope metaphor. You've got it exactly!

        Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

        Keith

        The important thing about making the videos as you go along is that they give you a record of the 'How' and later you can work out the 'Why'.

        Last month I had to learn a system in 4 weeks that normally takes 3 months to pick up. I made Camtasia videos of all the processes and added commentary. Half of the things didn't make sense to me at the time.

        But now I have the mechanics I am able to follow the process and I am starting to understand the logic of it, too. And when I get my own 'epiphanies' about a particular part of the process I make a note of it so I can make more polished videos down the line which include both the 'How' and the 'Why'.

        Thanks for the post and to TomW for his input.

        Martin
        Great advice there, Martin. Imagine how useful it is when you're getting geared up for outsourcing menial tasks - you've already got everything recorded for high-speed training of your workforce.
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  • Profile picture of the author Charann Miller
    Thanks for another enlightening post Keith, I especially like what you say about failing being a success in and of itself, so true because it is in the failing that we truly learn and eventually taste the fruits of success, keep it coming.
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    • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
      Originally Posted by Rannie1 View Post

      Thanks for another enlightening post Keith, I especially like what you say about failing being a success in and of itself, so true because it is in the failing that we truly learn and eventually taste the fruits of success, keep it coming.
      Thanks very much, Rannie. I'm glad you liked my post. You bring up an important point in that the successful are often characterized by being fearless in the face of possible failure. Failure, generally speaking, cannot kill you. Or even hurt you, for that matter. (Especially when we're talking about Internet Marketing). It can be embarrassing, yes. It can be discouraging, yes. It can be disappointing, yes. But there's no other way to gain quantifiable knowledge than through experience.

      You can't learn to ride a bike by reading a book, right? You just need to get on and pedal. If you fall, get back on and try again. Just like riding a bike, IM success isn't an unknown possibility. The proof that this works is all around us. Other successful IM'ers are coasting around on their bikes, ringing their bells at all of us. So let the Warrior Forum be like your training wheels and let you get your confidence. Once you're ready for it, take off the training wheels and ride!

      (Apologies for the clumsy metaphor!)
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Williams
    Great post!


    I'd like to add a step: 4.

    Once you learn it, do it, teach it and sell it. Then sell the info about how you sold it to the make money crowd. Because the selling is itself a valuable experience that should be recorded, taught and sold.
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  • Profile picture of the author AndyCamden
    Awesome post. I am actually going to post "Learn it. Do it. Teach it" on my wall as we speak. Thanks for taking the time to post this!
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  • Profile picture of the author godisgood
    Hi,

    I have heard most of the time that you just he need to follow the experienced people who have been doing IM or what we call the Guru's. I have seen most of your posts and yes you are one of those people who puts value in every post they make.

    Great advice!

    Jennifer
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  • Profile picture of the author Sandycmy
    Good one keith!

    Can you describe the delicate balance( in timing) between
    doing it -& - teaching(selling) it
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    • Profile picture of the author Jim Hallmark
      Awesome contribution Keith. Very in depth and insightful look at the necessary steps to success in this business. I agree wholeheartedly that it doesn't have to be hard. Learning curve? Yes and there needs to be sufficient work ethic to make it happen but too many times we overcomplicate this process and it the end fail because of it. And isn't the desired goal to win in the end?
      Signature
      "Thoughts become things... choose the good ones!" Mike Dooley
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      • Profile picture of the author clint48
        Great post, but you could have said Edison found as many as 1000 ways or more how not to make the light bulb, I don't think anyone knows for sure, but I bet it was in the thousands.

        Clint
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  • Profile picture of the author RickVN
    Keith, great post! You have successfully removed all that mystification the IM industry has all over the place.

    It is what it is, there is a constant flow of people exchanging money to save them time/energy, this is only growing exponentially. Recently I promoted a hot to guide about planting tomatos, yupper, crazy people will pay me seven bucks for this, but it is exactly as your post describes.

    Thanks for an excellent post, everyone reading it hopefully will Take Action!
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  • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
    Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post



    Step 1: Learn It. Learn ANYTHING - do a little research, spend a little time on the subject. But it should be something action based. Learn something you can DO. Learn HOW to do whatever it is. Learn the theory, the steps to execution, etc. It doesn't matter what the subject is, but it needs to be something actionable. This is important.

    What happens if you don't learn something actionable? Nothing. You're going to get frozen up at this step. Paralysis by Analysis. The Fallacy of Information. You'll just learn and research endlessly, but never take action and get something done.

    So take my advice, learn something executable, and as soon as possible, go to the next step. 79% of people who try to get into IM never make it past this point. Don't be like them.
    This is meat right here, the biggest hurdle to overcome.

    I think the hardest phase of a space launch , and the most fuel and power spent is overcoming the force of inertia from a motionless state. 2nd to re-entry, might be the most dangerous part.

    A LOT of learning courses, whether Internet Marketing or other disciplines fall into this category of being "non-Actionable" or does not present an actionable step(s).

    For every principal or theory, there should be an IMMEDIATE lab, something to put your "HANDS" on, get your clothes dirty, to see and feel it in motion and effect.

    Now getting the most from this lends to your 2nd and 3rd points, but this is the major hurdle.

    Some college professors are a good example of "theory" but usually has done nothing, successfully, in real life. How can ANY professor be a economics professor or economic "expert" and is not independently wealthy? Their job title should be "economic historian".

    A very out-the-box contribution here.

    The 13 th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
    Awesome post Keith, it does bring a few people to mind
    I think the first person I heard say that was Jay Abraham
    or the late Gary Halbert and then Frank Kern...

    But an excellent post...this is what I try to do in my
    business...

    --David
    Signature
    JV partnership wanted, Lets grow your list for free. Nothing to do with giveaways. PM Now
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  • Profile picture of the author Notarealdoctor
    Great post. I think I'll follow the steps that you have laid out here.
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  • Profile picture of the author NewbiesDiary
    Another great post - thanks Keith.

    This is exactly what I had in mind with my recent personal challenge.

    I learnt it (method)
    I did it (created & sold a product)
    I recorded it (results vid - give away)
    I'm teaching it (the product)
    I'm recording it (case study)
    I'll be selling it (great product with case study)
    I'll be teaching it (charging more this time!!)

    You're right it is a huge loop - I'm also making sure to 'give' while I'm at it - gotta keep that karma in check - so you gotta give some free content too, which Keith you are great at with these posts.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Dulisse
    That is sound advice. You can't sell it to someone else if you haven't done it yourself.

    Well...some do....lol
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    • Profile picture of the author Marhelper
      Thanks for the no fluff post. I could not agree more. I spent the first couple of months on this forum reading as much as I could and after that took action. I failed at first and that provided some of the greatest lessons I have learned so far. Thanks again.
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      • Profile picture of the author nolachief
        Keith,

        this is inspirational,..... thanks and i hope, after failures, i can share/teach this kind of valuable information with others.

        bob
        Signature



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      • Profile picture of the author bwall
        Great post Keith.
        I think that the problem many people have when starting out in internet marketing is that when they finally take action and start doing something, they are met with failure. They try a different method and have poor results with that too. This leads to frustration and the feeling that they will never make it in IM. So they either spend their money looking for another way to make money on line or they give up.

        Instead of getting discouraged from a failure, take a good look at what you did, document what you did and learn from it.
        You can read all the ebooks you can but until you start taking action and trying something you are not going to really learn it. Even if you fail you are getting that much closer to success by learning from experience. As you said, just because you don't make money at it doesn't mean it was a failure. You still gained valuable knowledge which you can teach others about.

        The only true failure comes not taking any action.
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  • Profile picture of the author kowulz
    I'm impressed. Nice paradigm, motivation, and insights.
    Signature

    Rock Cowles

    www.Kowulz.com
    "Argue your limitations and they are yours!" - Anthony Robbins
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  • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
    How nice to see this old thread of mine dragged up after a couple of months. I want to thank you guys for doing that, because it made me realize how long my info product project has been dragging on. I need to get on the ball ASAP and not lose momentum. I need to drink my own kool-aid!

    Anyway, very glad all of you found some value in my late-night ramblings, and thanks for reminding me of what I need to be doing. Like right now!
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Great post about taking action. ( THE KEY! )

    Create a list of things to do for a project/test and get busy actually doing it.

    Because doing something actually does something to a person.

    It liberates them!

    Now, if I read the post correctly, I'm not so sure complete newbies should take the extra steps of immediately preparing and actually selling their own product,...

    ... ( cause I believe the affiliate model is the best original move for newbies)

    ...but I totally agree with the spirit of the post.

    To know and not to do is not to know!
    - Old Chinese Proverb

    TL
    Signature

    "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. -- Mark Twain

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  • Profile picture of the author Allen Graves
    I completely disagree with everything Keith and Thomas have said throughout this thread!

    You see, I am a joker, a smoker and a midnight...well, a joker anyway.

    This thread is remarkable. Thanks you guys!

    Allen Graves
    Signature
    Every day I check the obituaries. If I don't see my name there, then I know it's going to be a good day!
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  • Profile picture of the author Debbie Allen
    Awesome post with great information! Thanks Keith - it reminded me of some of the things that I do know and can teach! And the cycle, or loop, will continue!
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  • Profile picture of the author karlp295
    I really enjoyed this post he really is very very helpful and Europe if when he can really really guide many to success. I agree with you the money is in that teach it phase because that's where you'll come across as an expert and others will start to trust your advice and take your recommendations at face value.
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  • Profile picture of the author tomcam
    You rock. I want you to have my baby. Or at least coach me.

    I had a similar revelation, and also about blogs, myself. I am creating a product called On the Web in an Hour that will prove Step 2. (I mention this not as a plug, since the product isn't finished, but as a historical placeholder that will eventually serve as a tribute to your splendid post.) I made my millions in a more traditional internet business but have had to relearn marketing. OTWIAH is a pure Step 2 play: I realized that WordPress is a platform now, not just a blog, and that notion has huge intrinsic value for anyone who wants to build great websites fast.

    Sorry for the sleep-inducing asides. The point is this: I fumbled my way to many of these same conclusions just a couple of weeks ago but you've packaged them up far more eloquently and comprehensively than I could.

    This is by far the most inspiring post I've encountered in my short tenure here on WF, and that's saying something. There's a heap of great material on this forum, but this is as fresh and powerful as anything I've come across.
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  • Profile picture of the author archer29
    Thanks Keith! I'm now working on "Another Automated Blog tactic" and it seems even easier than the first. I'm pumped! I can't imagine why it no longer exists on the forum.

    Note to newbies: Great posts disappear around here all the time. Save it to a pdf file if you ever want to read it again. I use the Firefox addon "Print to PDF". It doesn't automatically print but saves it as a file and you can print it later if you so desire.
    Signature

    Waste some time and follow me on twitter!

    The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person already doing it - Confucious

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  • Profile picture of the author Samuel Lee
    Thank you for your post! A concise fuss free explanation, given me some great ideas for setting up my own affiliate program! Great post!
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  • Profile picture of the author xmcp
    I actually just registered to come to this thread and comment. There's often a lot of hilarity on WarriorForum, but this is truly exceptional in the "roflworthy" department.

    If you're actually confident in your skill or ability, you don't sell your tricks. Period.
    The entire concept of selling it says that your own skills were not substantial enough in the area to make money.

    The fact is that there is a finite amount of traffic in any niche, and any trick you can find reaches a saturation point. Anyone who actually has skill will use what they know to control the market place and saturate it themselves for a hell of a lot more money than they could sell the skill itself for.

    This post is essentially the opposite of what to do to actually make money.
    (I'm sure I'll be banned for daring to doubt the guru now)
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    • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
      Originally Posted by xmcp View Post

      I actually just registered to come to this thread and comment. There's often a lot of hilarity on WarriorForum, but this is truly exceptional in the "roflworthy" department.

      If you're actually confident in your skill or ability, you don't sell your tricks. Period.
      The entire concept of selling it says that your own skills were not substantial enough in the area to make money.

      The fact is that there is a finite amount of traffic in any niche, and any trick you can find reaches a saturation point. Anyone who actually has skill will use what they know to control the market place and saturate it themselves for a hell of a lot more money than they could sell the skill itself for.

      This post is essentially the opposite of what to do to actually make money.
      (I'm sure I'll be banned for daring to doubt the guru now)
      First, I'm no "Guru" so I'm not sure what you mean there.

      Now with what you first said, you seem to be keeping a very narrow focus on the IM marketplace wherein the stuff you learn is directly profitable. However, the process I'm talking about has much MUCH broader application.

      It applies to anything. Learning how to putt better in golf makes you zero money. But if you learn it, then do it, then TEACH it - you create an opportunity for profit that didn't previously exist.

      I hope I'm explaining that better. What you're talking about may very well be true, but you missed the initial point of what I was saying. I'm not talking about "faking it till you make it" or "those that can't do, teach" in the IM field. I agree that exists.

      What I'm talking about is a process by which you can create wealth and valuable information at ANY skill level in ANY area, and you can create it simultaneously to actually learning and doing it.

      Hopefully that makes more sense, but I thank you for contributing!

      EDIT: I also wanted to add, that when you talk about "controlling the market" being more money than just selling your "tricks", realize that we're not talking about people who are considering "more money" vs. "less money" - I wrote this for people who are trying to get to "some money" from "no money".

      If you're nowhere yet, you're not going to be able to go from zero to market domination. Of course that's a better, more valuable position to be in. But you need to get there first, and in order to get there you need to learn. Why not make that learning itself a profitable process for you and make money along the way?

      That's not just a rhetorical question, either. If you have an answer, I'd love to hear it and discuss your experiences with you here.
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      • Profile picture of the author xmcp
        Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post

        First, I'm no "Guru" so I'm not sure what you mean there.
        You yourself said
        It's how you go from a loser to a guru. It's how you go from broke to rich.
        Considering the entire topic of this was writing about what you know, I thought it would be a safe assumption given that comment.
        Now with what you first said, you seem to be keeping a very narrow focus on the IM marketplace wherein the stuff you learn is directly profitable. However, the process I'm talking about has much MUCH broader application.

        It applies to anything. Learning how to putt better in golf makes you zero money. But if you learn it, then do it, then TEACH it - you create an opportunity for profit that didn't previously exist.
        I'm glad you said this now. It's a VERY important qualifier. Specifically the line "that didn't previously exist". People selling e-books and "classes" are full of crap for just that reason. People don't sell revenue producing information. At least not really(snakeoil, every time).
        I hope I'm explaining that better. What you're talking about may very well be true, but you missed the initial point of what I was saying. I'm not talking about "faking it till you make it" or "those that can't do, teach" in the IM field. I agree that exists.
        Glad to hear it
        What I'm talking about is a process by which you can create wealth and valuable information at ANY skill level in ANY area, and you can create it simultaneously to actually learning and doing it.

        Hopefully that makes more sense, but I thank you for contributing!
        And thank you for replying.
        EDIT: I also wanted to add, that when you talk about "controlling the market" being more money than just selling your "tricks", realize that we're not talking about people who are considering "more money" vs. "less money" - I wrote this for people who are trying to get to "some money" from "no money".

        If you're nowhere yet, you're not going to be able to go from zero to market domination. Of course that's a better, more valuable position to be in. But you need to get there first, and in order to get there you need to learn. Why not make that learning itself a profitable process for you and make money along the way?
        Because no one is ever going to learn to control a market without practice(just like with anything else).
        You have to treat opportunities like that is the end goal. If you're out to make chump change, that's all you'll ever make.

        I guess when it all comes down to it I just think that perhaps it'd be a good idea to mention that this doesn't apply to internet marketing.

        I just wouldn't want any newbies to get the wrong idea and think that things like e-books, "automated systems" or "PPC Classroom (a total joke)" are people following this concept. In internet marketing, the faster you learn to look at a sales page and think "Yes, it's a con", the faster you'll progress.

        Outside of IM though, it seems pretty workable.
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        • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
          Originally Posted by xmcp View Post

          You yourself said...
          ... Considering the entire topic of this was writing about what you know, I thought it would be a safe assumption given that comment.
          Yeah, d'oh! I didn't mean for that to be interpreted the way you did, but I can see now that it's vague that way - I should fix that. What I was trying to say with that statement is that if you do this kind of self-recorded research and implementation inside a niche, you're going to automatically get "guru" status simply because of the visibility and content generated.

          I'll give you a real example of something I'm doing right now. I'm a motor scooter enthusiast, and I only just now picked up a rarer model that has a cult following on the internet. So while learning how to service and mod it, I've been recording videos of those processes with my Flip cam while I do them. I'm a total beginner, but I'm still creating valuable content for the people who are less knowledgeable than me.

          Once I have about a dozen of these videos, do you think I could sell them on that forum? I bet I could. And do you think newbies coming into that niche would think I am like, the mack-daddy genius of that niche? Probably.

          That's what I was getting at.

          Originally Posted by xmcp View Post

          I'm glad you said this now. It's a VERY important qualifier. Specifically the line "that didn't previously exist". People selling e-books and "classes" are full of crap for just that reason. People don't sell revenue producing information. At least not really(snakeoil, every time).
          Yeah, I thought I'd made it clear in my example in the initial post that you have to be honest about the nature of what you produce with this process. In the example I used with autoblogging, I couldn't have promoted that as a money-making course because it didn't make any. But I COULD have marketed it as an auto-blogging how-to, and it would even have had value as a "how-not-to" guide.

          And it could even still have been sold in the IM niche. That's something about the "make money online" niche that I feel people get confused about. Some experienced marketers tell newbies you can't do stuff in this niche if you've never made money - that's not *quite* true - it's just that you can't sell info on how to do stuff you can't do.

          But there are PLENTY of opportunities to create products for this niche without them needing to be "make money doing X". For example, I could create a video course on how to integrate aweber opt-ins with a wordpress blog. I bet that would sell. People already know those things can be used to make money, and I can middle-man off of that.

          That's what I mean about learning something actionable, too. You can't "learn" PPC by reading a book, but if you DO it and record it, that's a new thing. You can sell the thing for what it is. There's nothing wrong with that as long as you describe it accurately.

          Originally Posted by xmcp View Post

          Because no one is ever going to learn to control a market without practice (just like with anything else).
          Agreed.

          Originally Posted by xmcp View Post

          You have to treat opportunities like that is the end goal. If you're out to make chump change, that's all you'll ever make.
          Well - yeah, true - if you're talking about a SINGLE market. Imagine rolling something out like I did with that scooter forum for every little thing you ever get interested in online. If you're like me, I get 50 new hobbies a year. What can I say, I live a life of leisure.

          But to my point, imagine doing somehting like that in say, 5-10 niches a year. From there, you could build a list, do affiliate marketing, or you know, whatever else you feel like. You don't need to go for total stranglehold domination. I never do - seems like a lot of work.

          With very, very little work, you can build lots of tiny little pools of influence that you can profit from while pursuing your own interests. I think that's pretty cool.

          Originally Posted by xmcp View Post

          I guess when it all comes down to it I just think that perhaps it'd be a good idea to mention that this doesn't apply to internet marketing.

          I just wouldn't want any newbies to get the wrong idea and think that things like e-books, "automated systems" or "PPC Classroom (a total joke)" are people following this concept. In internet marketing, the faster you learn to look at a sales page and think "Yes, it's a con", the faster you'll progress.

          Outside of IM though, it seems pretty workable.
          Yeah, you can't say you know how to make money when you can't. But there's plenty you can learn, do, teach in this space that has value without needing a direct claim of profits.

          What's the old marketing saying of finding out what people want and giving it to them? Find out what people what to learn how to do - learn how to do it - record yourself doing it - instant product. Couple that with any of the marketing tactics you can learn here on the WF and you'll most likely profit.
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    • Profile picture of the author LegitBlogger
      Very awesome thread, Keith and Tom. Awesome, indeed!

      BTW, talking about disappearing threads, I wonder why
      this happens. Threads that help hundreds of people that
      should be sticky forever just disappears. I don't care
      the excuse given for it, it's just NOT RIGHT!!!

      Anyway, perhaps, Keith, you can post a PDF version of
      the "another-automated-blog-tactic-even-easier-than-before"
      technique, since the one on this forum has mysteriously
      disappeared,
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  • Profile picture of the author 1bad55
    This Forum is the best. Where else can you put together so many interesting people and share ideas that do actually help people.

    Great Post and keep up the great work!
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  • Profile picture of the author X1
    Keith, you talk a lot, but you're not actually saying anything of value. And to be honest, I love it. I mean you guys are all really stupid. You keep wasting time with bullshit like this, making retarded posts and selling useless ebooks to each other, while guys like me make a killing.

    I really do hope you guys continue to be 'Warriors'. Please keep buying, making, selling reading ebooks, please keep making these 'feel good' threads and giving each other high fives, and please don't ever actually do any real marketing, instead stick with your infoproducts and keep telling yourselves you're real marketers, if that's what makes you feel good.

    I love you guys.
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    • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
      Originally Posted by X1 View Post

      Keith, you talk a lot, but you're not actually saying anything of value. And to be honest, I love it. I mean you guys are all really stupid. You keep wasting time with bullshit like this, making retarded posts and selling useless ebooks to each other, while guys like me make a killing.

      I really do hope you guys continue to be 'Warriors'. Please keep buying, making, selling reading ebooks, please keep making these 'feel good' threads and giving each other high fives, and please don't ever actually do any real marketing, instead stick with your infoproducts and keep telling yourselves you're real marketers, if that's what makes you feel good.

      I love you guys.
      If what you said is true, what you posted would be counter to that actual goal. Why wake up the sleeping sheep?

      If what you said is true, can you at least pretend to contribute instead of just shitting on an otherwise valuable thread? Wouldn't it be in your best interest to perpetuate the illusion?

      But I don't think you will, because I think you're a ****ing liar. You might be trying to make waves with your little bullshit "rich jerk" asshole post here.

      Maybe you're trying to pull some "Morpheus Marketing" and pretend you have the magic pill to making money online to all the "Neo" wannabes who are looking to "wake up"?

      Keep on making your "killing" - wtf was the point of you even saying anything if you won't share how you do it? wtf is the point of this post at all, because if you ARE making a killing in this market, you do it WHILE maintaining a disdain for your customers.

      I'm sure that can remain profitable indefinitely, but it doesn't actually contribute anything, so all you're doing is wasting people's time. So to quote Kenny Powers "Kiss my ass and suck my dick".

      Where's your "real marketing"? Show me, you ****ing coward. Otherwise, you're NOTHING.

      I'm tired of negative assholes like you and your bullshit. If you made DIME ONE the way you say you do there's no way you'd post that kind of shit here, because it would damage your own audience and you'd find more profit doing something else.

      I hope you die in a fire, and I hope it hurts when you burn.

      Thanks for contributing!

      KK

      NOTE: I don't mean to offend any of the people who may get value of this thread - I've just decided not to suffer fools gladly - if you want to criticize, offer a criticism of relevance and stand behind it. If you post some stupid garbage post I'm not just going to let it slide. As this thread has proven MORE THAN ONCE I'm willing to debate people with differing opinions and ideas.

      But this kind of crap contributes nothing. Maybe I bring more attention to it by singling it out, but I also like to think that maybe it discourages such posts in the future. I won't stand for it, and this is my means of "member moderation" - if you want to say something stupid, I'm going to quote it and tell you how stupid you are.

      Feel free to counter and we'll go back and forth. I have a name and a picture and I like to think I contribute here.

      If you want to believe Mr. X1, you can do that too.
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      • Profile picture of the author X1
        Oh my. Seems like I've hit a soft spot. You now seem like a different person. What strong and warrior-like characteristics you have there.
        Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post

        If what you said is true, what you posted would be counter to that actual goal. Why wake up the sleeping sheep?
        Because you won't, and neither will the vast majority of people that share your way of thinking. To be honest, my response was merely for the further entertainment of a number of other people who are laughing at you at this very moment.
        If what you said is true, can you at least pretend to contribute instead of just shitting on an otherwise valuable thread? Wouldn't it be in your best interest to perpetuate the illusion?
        How modest of you to call your own thread 'valuable'. No my friend, this thread is garbage, and as someone who is particularly good at detecting bullshit, I'm more qualified to pass this judgement than any ebook-lovin warrior.
        But I don't think you will, because I think you're a ****ing liar. You might be trying to make waves with your little bullshit "rich jerk" asshole post here.

        Maybe you're trying to pull some "Morpheus Marketing" and pretend you have the magic pill to making money online to all the "Neo" wannabes who are looking to "wake up"?
        Rich jerk? Morpheus Marketing? This is exactly my point, you live in your own little world and you think the entire internet marketing industry is restricted to infoproducts, and that's only been possible because people like you have been dumb enough to believe the gurus and think this whole industry revolves around them and their rehashed marketing tactics 'exposed' within their $77 ebooks.
        Keep on making your "killing" - wtf was the point of you even saying anything if you won't share how you do it? wtf is the point of this post at all, because if you ARE making a killing in this market, you do it WHILE maintaining a disdain for your customers.

        I'm sure that can remain profitable indefinitely, but it doesn't actually contribute anything, so all you're doing is wasting people's time. So to quote Kenny Powers "Kiss my ass and suck my dick".
        If I won't share how to do it? Are you ****ing kidding me? Didn't you read what XMCP (who is by the way a very good marketer) said? Get this through your head you idiot, you don't share information which is making you money. If I had a campaign making me $3000 a day in profit, do you really think I'm going to package it and sell it as an ebook for $47 so that every idiot can get it and saturate the niche for me and make the idea useless for everyone? You see you don't realise this because you've never made that much money, and it shows in your response. And how about you suck my dick instead? Please, go ahead and suck my dick, it'll make you feel better.
        Where's your "real marketing"? Show me, you ****ing coward. Otherwise, you're NOTHING.
        At this point I can almost sense you about to break into tears.
        I'm tired of negative assholes like you and your bullshit. If you made DIME ONE the way you say you do there's no way you'd post that kind of shit here, because it would damage your own audience and you'd find more profit doing something else.
        My audience knows nothing about me, and that's because I don't cater to the 'internet marketing' niche itself. You see, being an internet marketer isn't about selling internet marketing ideas to other internet marketers. That's the main thing that makes me almost throw up, the main focus of this forum is the creation and sale of internet marketing products to other internet marketers. This is evident through the ridiculous number of WSOs. Since when was marketing all about selling marketing tactics to other marketers?
        I hope you die in a fire, and I hope it hurts when you burn.
        I can't say that I feel the same way about you, burning to death is quite an unpleasant experience. I'm quite comfortable as I am, and this has been a satisfying experience for myself and quite a few other silent spectators who I'm sure are amused.
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        • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
          Originally Posted by X1 View Post

          Oh my. Seems like I've hit a soft spot. You now seem like a different person. What strong and warrior-like characteristics you have there.

          Because you won't, and neither will the vast majority of people that share your way of thinking. To be honest, my response was merely for the further entertainment of a number of other people who are laughing at you at this very moment.

          How modest of you to call your own thread 'valuable'. No my friend, this thread is garbage, and as someone who is particularly good at detecting bullshit, I'm more qualified to pass this judgement than any ebook-lovin warrior.

          Rich jerk? Morpheus Marketing? This is exactly my point, you live in your own little world and you think the entire internet marketing industry is restricted to infoproducts, and that's only been possible because people like you have been dumb enough to believe the gurus and think this whole industry revolves around them and their rehashed marketing tactics 'exposed' within their $77 ebooks.

          If I won't share how to do it? Are you ****ing kidding me? Didn't you read what XMCP (who is by the way a very good marketer) said? Get this through your head you idiot, you don't share information which is making you money. If I had a campaign making me $3000 a day in profit, do you really think I'm going to package it and sell it as an ebook for $47 so that every idiot can get it and saturate the niche for me and make the idea useless for everyone? You see you don't realise this because you've never made that much money, and it shows in your response. And how about you suck my dick instead? Please, go ahead and suck my dick, it'll make you feel better.

          At this point I can almost sense you about to break into tears.

          My audience knows nothing about me, and that's because I don't cater to the 'internet marketing' niche itself. You see, being an internet marketer isn't about selling internet marketing ideas to other internet marketers. That's the main thing that makes me almost throw up, the main focus of this forum is the creation and sale of internet marketing products to other internet marketers. This is evident through the ridiculous number of WSOs. Since when was marketing all about selling marketing tactics to other marketers?

          I can't say that I feel the same way about you, burning to death is quite an unpleasant experience. I'm quite comfortable as I am, and this has been a satisfying experience for myself and quite a few other silent spectators who I'm sure are amused.
          I agree with you 100% on everything you said. 120% on some stuff, but don't tell anyone because the math is weird. Glad to add to the lulz.

          And I was going to suck your dick, but it tastes too much like XMCP's butt, and he doesn't wipe often enough for my taste.

          I'm all for silently amused spectators, but it makes it really hard for me to make as good of jokes if you insist on not shutting the **** up.

          I suggest keeping quiet, so I can continue to amuse you uninterrupted. I have several even more hilarious posts to make, and I can't make them if I keep having to stop and talk to you.

          Thanks!

          KK
          KK
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  • Profile picture of the author businessmentor
    Keith,

    I condensed the whole 2500+ words thing to this:
    Learn
    Do
    Record What You Did & Sell
    Charge To Teach It.
    Record What You Taught & Sell

    The first two are known to everyone. Learn it, do it.
    So what remains?
    Record What You Did & Sell
    Charge To Teach It
    Record What You Taught & Sell

    When you have a working business process or system, all these three make sense. I agree. Until then, it doesn't.
    Your analogy of Edison: It is alright that Edison failed 99 (or 999) times. Fine.
    No problems, somebody got a patent with his first attempt, Edison had to try 100/1000 times to succeed. That is cool. Maybe finding a good filament took time.

    What is not cool is if Edison decides to sell his failed work as "How to light a bulb within 10 days in your room with a filament that glows for 5 years!!" to 1000 newbies.
    (Edit: And records his failed attempts and sells it. And teaches others how to make a good filament and light it. And then records all those and sells it.)
    KNOWING FULLY WELL that none of it works, at that point of time.

    But that's what you're advising here. Isn't it?
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    • Profile picture of the author subigo
      lulzlulzlulz
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    • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
      Originally Posted by businessmentor View Post

      Keith,

      I condensed the whole 2500+ words thing to this:
      Learn
      Do
      Record What You Did & Sell
      Charge To Teach It.
      Record What You Taught & Sell

      The first two are known to everyone. Learn it, do it.
      So what remains?
      Record What You Did & Sell
      Charge To Teach It
      Record What You Taught & Sell

      When you have a working business process or system, all these three make sense. I agree. Until then, it doesn't.
      Your analogy of Edison: It is alright that Edison failed 99 (or 999) times. Fine.
      No problems, somebody got a patent with his first attempt, Edison had to try 100/1000 times to succeed. That is cool. Maybe finding a good filament took time.

      What is not cool is if Edison decides to sell his failed work as "How to light a bulb within 10 days in your room with a filament that glows for 5 years!!" to 1000 newbies. KNOWING FULLY WELL that it doesn't work, at that point of time.

      But that's what you're advising here. Isn't it?
      No, what I'm advising is that if Edision had created an info product called "System for testing different metal filaments" and included as a bonus "Metals/filaments I've tested and tried with results".

      You need to be honest about what your product is. You don't NEED to make false claims. There's value in ANY kind of information if you're showing it to the right people.

      I never claimed otherwise, so please look carefully. If you see anywhere where what I said can be taken to mean that people should mislead others, please let me know so I can clarify it.

      You don't promote stuff that doesn't work, and you don't make false claims. Just present what you've created honestly. This is ESPECIALLY true if you keep trying until you DO succeed. Then your failures only lend credibility and credence to your eventual solution.

      Now, it's true you may never end up with a good "product" if all you do is record failures, but at least you have the OPPORTUNITY to create one if you DON'T fail, and depending on the nature of the failure, that can have potential too.

      But if you're not recording everything, you can't do anything with it, can you?

      To go back to my earlier example - I had a heck of a time draining the oil out of my scooter to do my first oil change. The first time I did it, I didn't have a correct container to capture the draining oil. I ended up making a huge stain on my driveway, and I RECORDED myself doing so.

      The second time I was able to fashion a container by cutting a 2 liter soda bottle just below the label and that was the exact right size/height so I could tip the scooter over, COMPLETELY empty the engine oil AND not overflow the container.

      All of those details (including the failure) made it into my final oil-change vid.

      A "here's how NOT to do it" part was added, and I show the oil-stain on my driveway that occured when I used the "standard" oil drain pan.

      Does that clarify what I'm saying? You don't need to mislead. To someone below you in the chain of learning, experience is of value even if it's a failure.
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      • Profile picture of the author businessmentor
        Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post

        No, what I'm advising is that if Edision had created an info product called "System for testing different metal filaments" and included as a bonus "Metals/filaments I've tested and tried with results".

        You need to be honest about what your product is. You don't NEED to make false claims. There's value in ANY kind of information if you're showing it to the right people.

        I never claimed otherwise, so please look carefully. If you see anywhere where what I said can be taken to mean that people should mislead others, please let me know so I can clarify it.

        You don't promote stuff that doesn't work, and you don't make false claims. Just present what you've created honestly. This is ESPECIALLY true if you keep trying until you DO succeed. Then your failures only lend credibility and credence to your eventual solution.

        Now, it's true you may never end up with a good "product" if all you do is record failures, but at least you have the OPPORTUNITY to create one if you DON'T fail, and depending on the nature of the failure, that can have potential too.

        But if you're not recording everything, you can't do anything with it, can you?

        To go back to my earlier example - I had a heck of a time draining the oil out of my scooter to do my first oil change. The first time I did it, I didn't have a correct container to capture the draining oil. I ended up making a huge stain on my driveway, and I RECORDED myself doing so.

        The second time I was able to fashion a container by cutting a 2 liter soda bottle just below the label and that was the exact right size/height so I could tip the scooter over, COMPLETELY empty the engine oil AND not overflow the container.

        All of those details (including the failure) made it into my final oil-change vid.

        A "here's how NOT to do it" part was added, and I show the oil-stain on my driveway that occured when I used the "standard" oil drain pan.

        Does that clarify what I'm saying? You don't need to mislead. To someone below you in the chain of learning, experience is of value even if it's a failure.
        If I am looking to make good filaments, I won't buy a "system for testing filaments", I would want to buy or license the best filament making process out there. And you won't see anyone selling "system for testing" products out there - they are all "systems for success". Made by people who failed. Multiple times.

        According to what you wrote, "teach along the way", you should be selling the first video, BEFORE YOU SUCCEEDED (not afterwards, as you wrote in your example above), to people. And nobody will buy it if you sell it as "how I failed". You will sell it as "how to drain oil" (edit: look at existing products out there! Or for that matter, in this forum!). At that point, the reality is, you don't know how to drain. You don't have a clue, yet you are marketing it.
        And that is what happens most of the time. People selling systems which they know have failed for them.

        Anyway, you posted this on an internet marketing forum, to people who market online, so let us take that as the target market, instead of anything else.

        If you know how to succeed, in this competitive market, and if you are getting decent profit margins, YOU WILL NEVER REVEAL IT. NEVER.

        Reason: Any niche, any marketing technique, will get saturated pretty quickly.
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        • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
          Originally Posted by businessmentor View Post

          If I am looking to make good filaments, I won't buy a "system for testing filaments", I would want to buy or license the best filament making process out there. And you won't see anyone selling "system for testing" products out there - they are all "systems for success". Made by people who failed. Multiple times.
          Okay, you're right - that was a bad example. My bad example doesn't disprove the principle, though. As I said above with my scooter maintenance example, failure doesn't mean there isn't a valuable result.

          Originally Posted by businessmentor View Post

          According to what you wrote, "teach along the way", you should be selling the first video, BEFORE YOU SUCCEEDED (not afterwards, as you wrote in your example above), to people.
          I'm not sure which example you're talking about, so it's hard to respond. But I want to, so if you could clarify, that would help.

          You are correct in that I think you don't have to succeed at a task you are recording in order to have that product be of value - even worth paying for.

          Heck, if you fail spectacularly, it may be worth even more for entertainment value alone. Jackass, anyone?

          As long as you don't misrepresent what you're selling, what's the problem?

          Originally Posted by businessmentor View Post

          And nobody will buy it if you sell it as "how I failed". You will sell it as "how to drain oil" (edit: look at existing products out there! Or for that matter, in this forum!). At that point, the reality is, you don't know how to drain. You don't have a clue, yet you are marketing it.
          And that is what happens most of the time. People selling systems which they know have failed for them.
          That's speculation, and again, you say that because you're looking strictly at the IM field. And even then you're only looking at the one goal (of many) that exist in IM, to make money.

          Many of the sub-goals along the way are valid as well. For example, I may not make money as an email marketer - but that does NOT mean that a course I sell about how to add an opt-in box to a WordPress blog is worthless.

          I think we're running into a semantic argument when we talk about what it means to "fail" - You may "fail" at your actual goal, but chances are you recorded something useful along the way. To go back to the scooter oil change example - I failed at first because I used the standard motorcycle oil draining receptacle. That "failure" is useful to share. Don't waste money on that item, when you can instead cut a used 2 liter soda bottle in seconds for free.

          I'm not saying you market it before you figure it out. I'm saying that you can look at what you "failed" at, reframe the successes, and market that. As long as you do it honestly, and can actually help the people who would buy it, you can sleep well at night, right?

          Where's the insidiousness that people are seeing here? Am I missing it?

          Originally Posted by businessmentor View Post

          Anyway, you posted this on an internet marketing forum, to people who market online, so let us take that as the target market, instead of anything else.

          If you know how to succeed, in this competitive market, and if you are getting decent profit margins, YOU WILL NEVER REVEAL IT. NEVER.

          Reason: Any niche, any marketing technique, will get saturated pretty quickly.
          I agree with that, too. I don't show people any of my sites out of fear of ruinous competition. But that's also keeping a narrow focus on the idea that what you're using my process on is IM activities, and particularly ones that are directly profitable and open to competition.

          To go back to the scooter example, if I figure out how to change my scooter's oil, I'm not inviting any kind of damage by selling that method.

          But even to circle it back to the IM market, if you're marketing NON-make-money products (like technical how-tos, software, etc.) there's no way to "saturate" the number of people making Wordpress blogs or making e-book covers with Photoshop, to cite a couple of examples.

          ONLY in the "make money" department is it MORE profitable to keep your secrets than to share them.

          Or do I misunderstand your argument?
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          • Profile picture of the author businessmentor
            Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post

            To go back to my earlier example - I had a heck of a time draining the oil out of my scooter to do my first oil change. The first time I did it, I didn't have a correct container to capture the draining oil. I ended up making a huge stain on my driveway, and I RECORDED myself doing so.

            The second time I was able to fashion a container by cutting a 2 liter soda bottle just below the label and that was the exact right size/height so I could tip the scooter over, COMPLETELY empty the engine oil AND not overflow the container.
            Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post

            You are correct in that I think you don't have to succeed at a task you are recording in order to have that product be of value - even worth paying for.
            This is what I meant - so, according to this, you can market the video the first time, just after you failed. How are you going to market it? Let's be realistic here - how many such products can you show me out there? Especially in this industry?


            Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post

            My bad example doesn't disprove the principle, though.
            No, I agree, mainly because those are taken from outside industries. You posted this at a forum for internet marketers - 90% of those here are either 100% online marketers, or marketing to the other forum members. So, let us take that example, since the original post was clearly meant for them.

            Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post

            And even then you're only looking at the one goal (of many) that exist in IM, to make money.
            As a person, you have multiple goals. But the goal of a business is to make money. And you posted this here, where the number one theme is to make money online. Here, most of the members are focused on that one goal. So, how can you avoid looking at that? It was clearly meant for them!

            Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post

            But even to circle it back to the IM market, if you're marketing NON-make-money products (like technical how-tos, software, etc.) there's no way to "saturate" the number of people making Wordpress blogs or making e-book covers with Photoshop, to cite a couple of examples.
            Those are not examples of failures. Will you market a product with the title "How I tried to make money by creating Wordpress blogs and failed miserably"? Show me one such product out there.

            Selling services is not what I meant. If someone sells his or her services, that is a different thing. You and I are not discussing that here.

            Let's keep it real. Look at the WSO threads - how many are marketing make money success guides, and how many are marketing pure technology, without claiming it will make them rich? Look at them yourself. Exclude the service threads. Look at the remaining ones. Sort them by replies. Look at the whole first page of WSO forum. I just did.

            Almost everything is "get rich", "get to first page of search engine", "automatic cash flow month by month", "$10,000 a month", "$100 per day adsense", etc.

            Let us use the number of replies as a yard stick to measure the popularity & sales.

            So, conclusion:

            1. The overwhelming majority here are focused on making money.
            2. An overwhelming percentage of WSOs are make money offers made by those who say they are making a lot of money.

            How many products are there which market the owners' failures?
            No semantics here, just show what you meant, by showing a significant percentage of products there, which meet your criteria, and which are doing well.
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            • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
              Originally Posted by businessmentor View Post

              This is what I meant - so, according to this, you can market the video the first time, just after you failed. How are you going to market it? Let's be realistic here - how many such products can you show me out there? Especially in this industry?
              Uh... What? I think you're taking me too literally - no, you can't record a video of yourself performing something the very first time you do it, and get a salable product out of it every time. I don't think I ever said that. If that's what your sticking point is, how about this:

              First, learn the task. Keep a journal as you learn, and take notes. Then, try for the first time. Update the journal and take notes. Then, when you've completed the task successfully, organize your notes, create a "tutorial" out of the combination of your notes and re-recording yourself executing the task.

              Is that more plausible to you?

              I also don't think I ever suggested you market anything as a "failure" - what I tried to express was that experience and recording of processes and tasks has a value independent of the outcome.

              An example:

              I read (like many others) that I can make money with a WordPress blog. I make one, and am quite good at making them, but fail to make money with it. It could be because of the niche, or because my writing sucks - whatever. But boy, do I know how to make a WordPress blog. Are you saying that I couldn't market a service or product related to creating WordPress blogs? Are you saying that would have zero value if I did not also somehow make money with the blog?

              Originally Posted by businessmentor View Post

              No, I agree, mainly because those are taken from outside industries. You posted this at a forum for internet marketers - 90% of those here are either 100% online marketers, or marketing to the other forum members. So, let us take that example, since the original post was clearly meant for them.
              I think you're kind of forcing the example there, I didn't make that kind of assumption about the makeup of the forum when I made the post. It may be that you're right about those statistics, but I guess maybe I make assumptions based on what I do - I have zero IM products, and all my marketing is in non-IM niches.

              Originally Posted by businessmentor View Post

              As a person, you have multiple goals. But the goal of a business is to make money. And you posted this here, where the number one theme is to make money online. Here, most of the members are focused on that one goal. So, how can you avoid looking at that? It was clearly meant for them!
              Not sure I get what you mean... What I was getting at is that people in the IM niche may have the ultimate goal of making money, but there are intermediate goals along the way, right? For example, I am not currently a "launch marketer", right? But I know how to make blogs. I know launch marketers need to know how to make blogs. Let's say it's also possible that even without being successful at launching my own stuff, I have an understanding of the needs someone doing a launch may have. I could then design and create a tutorial on how to create a blog customized for executing a product launch. That doesn't solve the customer's problem of "how do I make money" but it does solve their intermediate problem, namely "I need a blog to do this - how do I get a blog?"

              I hope I explained that better this time - There absolutely are experiences that ANYONE can have that will be valuable to IMers that DO NOT necessarily have to do with directly making money.

              Originally Posted by businessmentor View Post

              Those are not examples of failures. Will you market a product with the title "How I tried to make money by creating Wordpress blogs and failed miserably"? Show me one such product out there.
              I don't think I suggested you would do something like that, did I? You may have tried to make money with WordPress but failed, but you did manage to get your blog set up and working correctly. For the guy who has never made a blog, that has potential value. Reframe your failure as a success. Find the value - find the lesson - find the success. That's where the value is.

              Originally Posted by businessmentor View Post

              Selling services is not what I meant. If someone sells his or her services, that is a different thing. You and I are not discussing that here.
              If you say so.

              Originally Posted by businessmentor View Post

              Let's keep it real. Look at the WSO threads - how many are marketing make money success guides, and how many are marketing pure technology, without claiming it will make them rich? Look at them yourself. Exclude the service threads. Look at the remaining ones. Sort them by replies. Look at the whole first page of WSO forum. I just did.

              Almost everything is "get rich", "get to first page of search engine", "automatic cash flow month by month", "$10,000 a month", "$100 per day adsense", etc.

              Let us use the number of replies as a yard stick to measure the popularity & sales.

              So, conclusion:

              1. The overwhelming majority here are focused on making money.
              2. An overwhelming percentage of WSOs are make money offers made by those who say they are making a lot of money.

              How many products are there which market the owners' failures?
              No semantics here, just show what you meant, by showing a significant percentage of products there, which meet your criteria, and which are doing well.
              Never said you market a failure as a failure - if I implied it, I was unclear. I think I've given numerous examples of what I really meant by reframing a success as a valuable item. I mean, consider the role of the reviewer - you try a method, record your experiences with it POSITIVE or NEGATIVE, and then report back. Even if the report is negative, it's a credibility builder for your other eventual positive reviews (which you may profit from as an affiliate, for example).

              In a nutshell, alls I'm saying is recording everything you do has value - for you, and for people who have not yet had the experience you have. Sometimes that is a monetary value, sometimes maybe only educational. It's valuable nonetheless.

              I mean, use your judgment, or better yet - TEST the marketplace. See what they will pay for. If they won't pay for it, give it away to build your list.
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              • Profile picture of the author businessmentor
                Originally Posted by Keith Kogane View Post


                In a nutshell, alls I'm saying is recording everything you do has value - for you, and for people who have not yet had the experience you have. Sometimes that is a monetary value, sometimes maybe only educational. It's valuable nonetheless.
                I don't have anything against that. There is one specific aspect of internet marketing that I have problem with. I explained that already.

                You managed a constructive discussion amid the flurry of other posts. That's something which I like.

                Till next time!
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  • Profile picture of the author kenwarrior
    Very interesting thread, I've learnt something today, reminds me a lot about the stuff Brian Tracy teach's - another deep thinker!, if you are curious google "brian tracy", with or without quotes, and checkout his products, they are excelent, I have several.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jmn187
    Another good read. Keep it up.

    Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author gb4biz
    Gudos to Both Keith and TomW on a very good post and post reply, that's what this Forum is all about. Good Work Guy's.
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  • Profile picture of the author Calvin
    Very good thread.

    Other than the obvious losers who are just looking to make a ruckus, I think there is a lot of valuable information, and a little bit of legitimate give and take here.

    The main thing I come away with, is that Keith is making a very subtle point on the subject of product creation, and some people either miss the subtlety, or are pretending to miss the point.

    I can see how that is justified to some extent, because the potential abuses and potential negative applications of Keith's point are all on full display in the IM arena.

    But the point as I see it, is that a certain way of doing things, a particular strategy if you will, is POSSIBLE, and is a legitimate business strategy regardless of your niche, or whether your business is online or offline.

    Keith is not advocating that anybody actually abuse this strategy.

    I for one welcome this thread and "most" of the posts.

    Keep up the great work.

    Calvin
    Signature
    Coming Aug. 1, 2015 - I will pay you for talking to me on the phone.

    Stay Tuned.
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  • Profile picture of the author JackieM
    Great Advice! Thanks so much for this.
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    • Profile picture of the author Chri5123
      Nice post, you are so right!

      It reminds me of a similar email I got ages ago from Willie Crawford when he was talking about PPC marketing and he said something like "Find out what they are looking for, and give it to them!"

      So simple yet it was a real eye opener for me, and my Adwords conversions really skyrocketed after that, so if your out there thanks for that Willie!

      Also I like your post because with all the stuff we have to learn in IM I think the key is making it simple and you illustrate that!

      It is not that hard to do, just action!

      All the best

      Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author nggablog
    Oh... man! I got a new magic words from this pretty thread.
    Learn It. Do It. Teach It.
    It's seems like a marketing life chain.

    thx Keith
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  • Profile picture of the author Keith Kogane
    Thanks for all the positive comments, guys.

    The opportunities for applying this method are literally all around you. For example, today I was looking for a particular piece of niche software (I have weird hobbies).

    There are 2 competing pieces of software that do roughly the same thing - I picked one, bought it, started using it, and I was pleased. Typical, right?

    Now, let's take a look at how I discovered these pieces of software. I found out about both from the same niche hobby forum where I was already hanging out. There's ENDLESS debate there about which piece of software is better. In fact, the niche is so small, the guys that make either software BOTH have accounts there and participate in the discussion, etc.

    Now if I had bought BOTH, recorded myself going through the order procedure, the install procedure, and the basic use cases, do you think that might have value for that forum?

    Do you think that any subsequent time some forum newb asks about the relative merits of X vs. Y software, that I couldn't just link them to my videos so they can decide for themselves?

    Do you think any of them would buy either software through my affiliate link?

    Now of course, this is hypothetical. And in this instance, those softwares don't have affiliate programs. However, I bet I could talk the owners into some kind of JV deal. I don't plan on trying, as I KNOW there's not enough money in the niche (forum only has 100 members, yet they support 2 softwares - go figure) to make it worthwhile for me at the moment, but I'm sure you see the example.

    But then again, it all depends on perspective.

    Somewhere out there, there is a PayPal link of mine that redirects to a page hosted somewhere for a PDF I made once about how to make your own hammock. The PDF is made entirely from public domain stuff, with photo illustrations I took myself.

    I don't even know where it is, or what old free account it's at. But dang if I don't sell like, 1 copy of that report per year. Which is a whopping $19.

    Would I take that effort again for $20 a year? Probably not at this point in my life.

    BUT!

    Look at it this way. I LOVE computer role playing games. But I'm far from a cutting-edge gamer. I play only slightly older games because A. I can tell if they pass the test of time and become "classics" before I bother with them. and B. I can get them for much cheaper when they are old, plus, my hardware is usually not the most current.

    The point is, I play the "best" games, I get deeply involved in them (role playing games can take endless hours to complete) and I buy only one or two A YEAR.

    Do you see where I'm going with this? For the past 3 years, my computer games budget has been covered by a stupid report about basically tying a series of knots. Which I wrote several years ago in about 2 days. Which I don't even know where it IS, or how people even FIND it.

    Learn it, do it, record it, post it somewhere with some kind of money-making mechanism. You'll get paid forever (or at least have the CHANCE of it happening, which is much more than 85% of the people in IM have going for them.)

    Hope my little anecdotes there help, and thanks again for all the kind words here! Even though I was worried at first that anyone would care about this kind of post way back when I made it, I'm so glad to see people get something from it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Park
    Keith,

    You ARE the man! Really appreciate your elongated post sharing your "deep" insight about making it online. I always get touched by people like yourself to share the knowledge so that everyone would succeed at the same time. I believe that's the key to success, ain't it? Helping me by helping others!

    Cheers,
    Joseph
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