Why People Submit Articles Like That!?

60 replies
Below there is an extract of an article that was submitted today to our article directory.

As I was reading it I did really struggle to understand what was being said, it is like it's written in code or something.

I would really like to know where one can get an article like that and way would anybody want to submit an article like that at all.

We do get at least 20 of those articles every day and I am really struggling to grasp the mentality of the people who are producing and submitting that sort of content.

Can someone explain me why people do that?:confused:


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#articles #people #submit
  • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
    Perhaps that was a failed attempt at spinning an article? This had to have been created by some software or something....noone I know writes like this.

    One thing is for sure: if this were my directory, the content would be deleted and the writer would be banned.

    Originally Posted by howinfo View Post

    Below there is an extract of an article that was submitted today to our article directory.

    As I was reading it I did really struggle to understand what was being said, it is like it's written in code or something.

    I would really like to know where one can get an article like that and way would anybody want to submit an article like that at all.

    We do get at least 20 of those articles every day and I am really struggling to grasp the mentality of the people who are producing and submitting that sort of content.

    Can someone explain me why people do that?:confused:
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  • Profile picture of the author TheFreebieGuy
    That seems like a computer-generated article. Either that or the person really don't speak English. Either way, it's probably someone just trying to get content out there for the backlink, while not caring about the quality.

    I tell ya, if everyone just tried to contribute value, as opposed to crap like that, the internet would be a much better place
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    • Profile picture of the author Wham
      Its nothing more then an article generated/spun by software and then spammed out to article directories to gain backlinks. If you run an article directory expect to get them regularly.
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    • Profile picture of the author howinfo
      Yes, we obviously did not publish the articles and the author will be banned.

      I could not figure out the right category to publish it under.

      What is surprising to me that this article was hand submitted so the person must have know what he or she was submitting.

      It is just big waste of time for everybody.
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    • Profile picture of the author mr.gaurabborah
      People just try to sneak a few links here and there. Artcile spinning is never good to maintain the quality of articles. However people are least bothered as long as they are getting some free links.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by howinfo View Post

    Can someone explain me why people do that?:confused:
    So many people have told them that you (somehow, mysteriously) get a "better backlink" if you spin the content of the article than submit it unchanged that they've started believing it, I think.

    Mind you, on the other hand, to be fair to the author of this one, if phrases like "stressful amongst specifics, figure plus more jargon versus by now what to do together with" ever become popularly sought keywords, he'll have the market more or less cornered, won't he? Unless you go all churlish on him and decline the article, I suppose.
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  • Profile picture of the author IM Charley
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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  • Profile picture of the author nettech
    I often get 'spun' junk articles like this. I simply decline the article or ban the user. That article is nothing short of disgraceful. I actually find it offensive that someone would submit something like this when I'm giving them a nice dofollow juicy backlink.
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  • Profile picture of the author bluewillow
    Looks like some bad plr.
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    • Profile picture of the author howinfo
      Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

      But....it doesn't provide anything of value. If you'd like for your directory to become an even remotely reliable authority source of information, I wouldn't approve those articles...and, I'd ban the username ASAP....

      ...the unfortunate thing is that this is becoming so rampant that you almost need a position entirely dedicated to handling/managing/deleting this content. I'd identify one of your most loyal contributors, give them an extra 1-2% revenue share (or may even just a special title), grant them limited access to the backend, and have them stay on top of this stuff....
      I must say that we are only approving 5% of the articles that are submitted. Most articles we get are just not relevant to our article directory or they are just really bad or advertisement.

      And I must admit that it takes sometimes quite long to go through all the articles. And some of the ideas you have mentioned are really worth considering.

      Originally Posted by mr.gaurabborah View Post

      People just try to sneak a few links here and there. Artcile spinning is never good to maintain the quality of articles. However people are least bothered as long as they are getting some free links.
      I suppose they are counting on auto approving article directories.

      Originally Posted by bluewillow View Post

      Looks like some bad plr.
      PLR must stand for something else then.
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      • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
        I'm sure you understand quite well just how difficult it can be to get an article directory off the ground....

        Providing proper incentives, while turning a profit, while also ensuring the quality standard of content that will gain authority in Google...can be nothing short of a nightmare to get right. Had the industry not been so saturated with these sites, I would give it a "go" myself...

        Before I even touched a project like this, I'd want at least 1/4 of a million $$$$ to play with.

        Originally Posted by howinfo View Post

        I must say that we are only approving 5% of the articles that are submitted. Most articles we get are just not relevant to our article directory or they are just really bad or advertisement.

        And I must admit that it takes sometimes quite long to go through all the articles. And some of the ideas you have mentioned are really worth considering.



        I suppose they are counting on auto approving article directories.



        PLR must stand for something else then.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

          Before I even touched a project like this, I'd want at least 1/4 of a million $$$$ to play with.
          Indeed. It's not a business model I'd want to get involved in without a lot of capital and a lot of really unique twists (not just syndicated ones, you understand) and a lot of promotion, and even then I'd rather call it a day and go into the barnacle-scraping business instead ... or open a Peruvian/Estonian restaurant, of course.
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          • Profile picture of the author howinfo
            Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

            I'm sure you understand quite well just how difficult it can be to get an article directory off the ground....

            Providing proper incentives, while turning a profit, while also ensuring the quality standard of content that will gain authority in Google...can be nothing short of a nightmare to get right. Had the industry not been so saturated with these sites, I would give it a "go" myself...

            Before I even touched a project like this, I'd want at least 1/4 of a million $$$$ to play with.
            Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

            Indeed. It's not a business model I'd want to get involved in without a lot of capital and a lot of really unique twists (not just syndicated ones, you understand) and a lot of promotion, and even then I'd rather call it a day and go into the barnacle-scraping business instead ... or open a Peruvian/Estonian restaurant, of course.
            When we started our article directory It was only meant to be a small experiment but as it started to brining in quite a good revenue we started working on it lot more and we did expanded the site as well.

            I do agree that it will take lot of work to get article directory off the ground but once it is more or less functioning then it can be quite good revenues stream.

            And funny that you mentioned the restaurant business as I am from Estonia.
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            • Profile picture of the author howinfo
              Originally Posted by AFI View Post

              HAHA no. I make sure my articles make sense in every way before I submit them. I read the each way they would be output and only spin them about 10% anyway.
              I did not really think it was you. You are more than welcome to submit your articles.

              Originally Posted by kimberly Aita View Post

              I take it your article directory is only looking for articles based on marketing, business, or something of that nature?
              Yes, we are looking for Career Articles, more specifically 'How To Become' somebody in specific career or a profession and also job descriptions.
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            • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
              Howinfo,

              Have you researched alot of similar Web 2.0 sites/business models out there? They are among some of the leading ranked websites in the world, for a reason....

              Even though I did mention that the industry is absolutely saturated with these types of sites, few actually get things "right" in terms of striking an optimal balance between incentivization and offerings. Believe it or not, but there is ALOT of room for more competitive models to emerge, had they the money and resources to jumpstart it.

              I can tell you EXACTLY what I'd do had I had the money. I would err towards a very generous model that increased revenue share based on a point system that was interwoven into incentivizing positive user actions (creating more content, writing longer content, etc)....revenue shared would increase, on a monthly basis, if people met certain point standards I set out. I could talk about this forever...lol

              Believe it or not, but some of the leading sites in this industry don't even share how revenue is shared with writers. On top of that, many sites aren't very generous at all. This tells me that 1) Transparency and 2) a generous escalating tiered model could REALLY stand a chance at succeeding....


              Originally Posted by howinfo View Post

              When we started our article directory It was only meant to be a small experiment but as it started to brining in quite a good revenue we started working on it lot more and we did expanded the site as well.

              I do agree that it will take lot of work to get article directory off the ground but once it is more or less functioning then it can be quite good revenues stream.

              And funny that you mentioned the restaurant business as I am from Estonia.
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              • Profile picture of the author howinfo
                Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

                Howinfo,

                Have you researched alot of similar Web 2.0 sites/business models out there? They are among some of the leading ranked websites in the world, for a reason....

                Even though I did mention that the industry is absolutely saturated with these types of sites, few actually get things "right" in terms of striking an optimal balance between incentivization and offerings. Believe it or not, but there is ALOT of room for more competitive models to emerge, had they the money and resources to jumpstart it.

                I can tell you EXACTLY what I'd do had I had the money. I would err towards a very generous model that increased revenue share based on a point system that was interwoven into incentivizing positive user actions (creating more content, writing longer content, etc)....revenue shared would increase, on a monthly basis, if people met certain point standards I set out. I could talk about this forever...lol

                Believe it or not, but some of the leading sites in this industry don't even share how revenue is shared with writers. On top of that, many sites aren't very generous at all. This tells me that 1) Transparency and 2) a generous escalating tiered model could REALLY stand a chance at succeeding....
                Yes I understand that the competition is very strong and there are some very strong Career sites and article directories out there. I do realize that I can not really compete with companies like Demand Media so we are just doing our own thing at our own speed and we are using the leading sites to our advantage as much as possible and results have been really good.

                As our article directory is only a year old then there is still lot of things that could be improved and added and the revenue sharing is something to consider but I think at this point it would be just to complex task to carry out and I am not entirely sure if that is the best way to go for us but I can certainly see the value in such a model.
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              • Profile picture of the author CrhisD
                Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

                I can tell you EXACTLY what I'd do had I had the money. I would err towards a very generous model that increased revenue share based on a point system that was interwoven into incentivizing positive user actions (creating more content, writing longer content, etc)....revenue shared would increase, on a monthly basis, if people met certain point standards I set out. I could talk about this forever...lol
                Let's talk about it, here or in PM. Thoughts are things, remember? anything our mind can conceive we can achieve. The worst we can do is fail right? and then we'd be no better or worse than we are now. So tell me about your point system, here or in a PM or in a thread or whatever
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  • Profile picture of the author AFI
    I screwed myself today. I was using Article Submitter Robot and I did all of the syntax for the spinning but I forgot to hit "spin" afterwards and I think it submitted my article with the spin syntax in it to about 400 article directories.
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    • Profile picture of the author howinfo
      Originally Posted by AFI View Post

      I screwed myself today. I was using Article Submitter Robot and I did all of the syntax for the spinning but I forgot to hit "spin" afterwards and I think it submitted my article with the spin syntax in it to about 400 article directories.
      So it was you then!!!
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    • Profile picture of the author cnite3174
      I'm so sorry to here that.
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  • Profile picture of the author kimberly Aita
    OMG, I was laughing so hard I could barely read the thing.... still have tears in my eyes. That is definitely an article from a spinner like magic article rewriter where you can use tokens and just hit spin. I tried it a few times and that is what kind of stuff you end up with because it uses synonyms and it isn't able to only replace with words that are actually relevant to the content.

    Did I make sense there? Any way thanks for the laugh but I really hope you won't publish that.
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  • Profile picture of the author AFI
    That is some bizarre sort of digicam!!
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  • Profile picture of the author kimberly Aita
    I take it your article directory is only looking for articles based on marketing, business, or something of that nature?
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  • Profile picture of the author InitialEffort
    Originally Posted by howinfo View Post

    Below there is an extract of an article that was submitted today to our article directory.

    As I was reading it I did really struggle to understand what was being said, it is like it’s written in code or something.

    I would really like to know where one can get an article like that and way would anybody want to submit an article like that at all.

    We do get at least 20 of those articles every day and I am really struggling to grasp the mentality of the people who are producing and submitting that sort of content.

    Can someone explain me why people do that?:confused:
    Because people are dumb, and they don't need to waste their time synonym spinning articles unless they are going to appear on a Web 2.0 Blog. (Full Sentence and Paragraph spinning can be helpful).
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Since I can write articles AND I can write software, I have often thought about making my own content generation software.

    If ever I marry those two skills, I will call my software,

    Darwinian Content Creator


    The headline on the sales page would suggest that:

    You Only Need One Monkey Behind The Computer
    To Create Content That Will Bring Smiles To People In Forums


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  • Profile picture of the author Sheryl Polomka
    It's articles like this that give spinners such a bad rep - I hate article spinners for this very reason - they produce crap! Although I know if used correctly you can spin good articles (well apparently you can) I still prefer to hand write mine so I know what the article says and it isn't going to include any sentences that just don't make sense.

    This example though is just laughable, has to be one of the worst! Although not as bad as that one that was mentioned the other day about 'like a fart in a gale of wind' or something like that

    What are these people thinking!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author corycrabb
    Not sure but this is a good question! :>
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  • Profile picture of the author dremora
    I don't know what's the big deal about spinning. It takes me 5 minutes to rewrite an article to pass EZA and copyscape. I really don't understand why people use those terrible spinners. It's hell of a lot more work to find synonyms, feed all this data into the spinner, and proofread the spun article. It's much faster and easier to manually rewrite everything (there is a free tool that breaks article down into many paragraphs and helps you get organized when rewriting).

    I submit the exact same article first to EZA, then everywhere else and never had any issues.
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    • Profile picture of the author mathmo
      Originally Posted by dremora View Post

      I don't know what's the big deal about spinning. It takes me 5 minutes to rewrite an article to pass EZA and copyscape. I really don't understand why people use those terrible spinners. It's hell of a lot more work to find synonyms, feed all this data into the spinner, and proofread the spun article. It's much faster and easier to manually rewrite everything (there is a free tool that breaks article down into many paragraphs and helps you get organized when rewriting).

      I submit the exact same article first to EZA, then everywhere else and never had any issues.
      What free tool is this?

      I've never got into article writing myself [surely it is too boring/low value?], but if I was going to and looking for a fast way I'd always thought split screens would be the quick and easy way.

      Am intrigued if there is a tool which takes this concept a lot further.
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      • Profile picture of the author wordwizard
        Originally Posted by howinfo View Post

        Below there is an extract of an article that was submitted today to our article directory.

        As I was reading it I did really struggle to understand what was being said, it is like it's written in code or something.

        I would really like to know where one can get an article like that and way would anybody want to submit an article like that at all.

        We do get at least 20 of those articles every day and I am really struggling to grasp the mentality of the people who are producing and submitting that sort of content.

        Can someone explain me why people do that?:confused:
        Wow! This is a particularly "interesting" example. I get these sorts of things as blog comments!

        Originally Posted by IM Charley View Post

        What's sad is that whoever submitted that horrible thing will be asking why their marketing attempts are failing. LOL
        And they'll do so probably right here on the WF (where they are also asking for help because EZA keeps rejecting their articles!

        Originally Posted by dremora View Post

        I don't know what's the big deal about spinning. It takes me 5 minutes to rewrite an article to pass EZA and copyscape. I really don't understand why people use those terrible spinners. It's hell of a lot more work to find synonyms, feed all this data into the spinner, and proofread the spun article. It's much faster and easier to manually rewrite everything (there is a free tool that breaks article down into many paragraphs and helps you get organized when rewriting).

        I submit the exact same article first to EZA, then everywhere else and never had any issues.
        Would you share a link for that tool (or send me a PM) please?

        Thanks!
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    • Profile picture of the author CrhisD
      Originally Posted by dremora View Post

      I don't know what's the big deal about spinning. It takes me 5 minutes to rewrite an article to pass EZA and copyscape.
      That probably took about a second or two to generate. In five minutes you could have 60*60*5 = 18,000 articles like that. Now say there are two backlinks per article. Given the fact that there are several thousand article directories on the net (let's assume 12,000) -- you would instantly have 12,000x2 = 24,000 backlinks.

      That is why. Ever see one of these ads that go "backlink generator -- 12,000 backlinks every day!" and the ones that go "submit your article to 12,000 directories!" ?

      They usually sell scripts that do that, and someone bought them.
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  • Profile picture of the author terrapurus
    Originally Posted by howinfo View Post

    Can someone explain me why people do that?:confused:
    A lot of this content come from cheap SEO companies. They are the ones that say we will write and submit x articles for you to get a squillion backlinks. Or using article spam to bump client rankings. Most organizations that use this practice come from a country (won't name it as I don't want to bash as per forum rules) about half way between Europe and the pacific ... and you can get a good curry there.

    Process is simple - either just steal an article from the web or pay their internal writer $0.50 to create a reasonable seed article. Next, open up something like the best spinner (fantastic program, own it myself - but like any great tool, it can be abused). Set it to replace all possible words with 3,4 or 5 variations. Hit go.

    In about 2 minutes you have a spun article that reads like rubbish. Spam it out and let the accepting publisher worry if it is good enough quality.
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  • Profile picture of the author excuzemee
    i could see it as being written in russian, or pushtu first, then sent through a free translator then spun. Maybe even written in russian, translated to pushtu then translated to english then spun.

    I wrote a tradesman course and had to throw a few of the modules into french, it came out about 90% correct for the guy, readable an mostly understandable for him. But I started to play with the translator and when I took the french and tried to translate back to english it looked a lot like the article you have up there.

    I'm sure there is someone making money selling this system to someone somewhere. Otherwise no one would be doing it.

    Translated to french: Je suis sûr quil ya quelqu'un qui gagne l'argent en vendant ce système à quelqu'un quelque part. Sinon, personne ne le ferait.

    French to Italian:Sono sicuro che qualcuno Quil che guadagna i soldi vendendo questo sistema a qualcuno da qualche parte. In caso contrario, nessuno.

    Italian back to eng: Quil I'm sure that someone who earns money by selling this system to someone somewhere. Otherwise, no.

    Then spin it a couple times.... hahaha! No digicams though...
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  • Profile picture of the author slatron25
    excuzemee is kinda on to something. I think it may be a combination of spinners and the "author" not being the least bit acquainted with English. I get the same type of articles, they're good for a laugh before I hit the trash button.
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  • Profile picture of the author rohnsmith
    I think it is new to article spinning. even after taking help from this kind of software they must check once if it is really meaning full or not..
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  • Profile picture of the author VictorBlack
    I tried to read the first sentence but it hurt my brain.
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  • Profile picture of the author CrhisD
    Originally Posted by howinfo View Post

    Below there is an extract of an article that was submitted today to our article directory.

    As I was reading it I did really struggle to understand what was being said, it is like it's written in code or something.

    I would really like to know where one can get an article like that and way would anybody want to submit an article like that at all.

    We do get at least 20 of those articles every day and I am really struggling to grasp the mentality of the people who are producing and submitting that sort of content.

    Can someone explain me why people do that?:confused:
    It's SEO. If you check the article, I'm sure you'll find that "digicam" is a link to their site. That article creates backlinks to their site, which helps them move up the ranks at search engines.
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  • Profile picture of the author cheapskatemate
    I've been scrapping an article directory lately, and have noticed that some users repost the same article over and over again but with different titles.

    Just out of interest, what site is the author of that article linking to? it would be interesting to see how many backlinks Yahoo finds for it, and to see if it has any pagerank.
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  • Profile picture of the author james alonzo
    what is the website address of that article directory?
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  • Profile picture of the author bamidele_ba
    I think the fellow is trying to submit an unprofessionally spun article.
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    • Profile picture of the author hanrysmith
      People should not submit article like this. In my views a article is submitted in such a manner that everyone likes it and it must not be copied from other site.
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    • Profile picture of the author thinkahead
      Originally Posted by bamidele_ba View Post

      I think the fellow is trying to submit an unprofessionally spun article.
      Certainly, it smells of a badly spun article that the spinner simply has not bothered to check to see if it actually makes sense. All they've done is chosen synonyms for virtually all the words and assumed that it'll all simply make sense.

      Either that or they've purchased poor PLR articles and, again, not bothered to check the content or the quality.

      It just goes to prove the point that there's no substitute for a well-written, original article, whether it is written by yourself or an outsourcer.

      I HATE article spinners!!!
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      • Profile picture of the author howinfo
        Originally Posted by cheapskatemate View Post

        I've been scrapping an article directory lately, and have noticed that some users repost the same article over and over again but with different titles.

        Just out of interest, what site is the author of that article linking to? it would be interesting to see how many backlinks Yahoo finds for it, and to see if it has any pagerank.
        That happens a lot when the same article is submitted many times under different categories and with different titles. Thank God for dupe deleter.

        As I deleted the article already I can't check the website any more.

        Originally Posted by james alonzo View Post

        what is the website address of that article directory?
        Link to our article directory is in signature.

        Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

        The model I proposed is a hybrid of many models. Unfortunately, I do not have the funding (or time) to implement it. Refer to the business models of sites like Squidoo, eHow, HubPages, Suite101, etc, and you'll have a good idea of how to execute this. Sorry, I am short on time right now.

        There is an interesting article about eHow business model: The Answer Factory: Demand Media and the Fast, Disposable, and Profitable as Hell Media Model | Magazine
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      • Profile picture of the author aandersen
        Originally Posted by mathmo View Post

        What free tool is this? . . . Am intrigued if there is a tool which takes this concept a lot further.
        Originally Posted by wordwizard View Post

        Would you share a link for that tool (or send me a PM) please?
        I can't say for sure, but I think he was talking about Article Reviser. You can download it free (with opt-in) here :
        http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...er-better.html
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      • Profile picture of the author kea55
        It could be that English just isn't this guys first language.
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  • I hope that was a spun article! If it was an example of the author's actual writing, he or she needs to give back all the pens, paper and other writing implements (including computers) he or she has and stick to drawing pictures with crayons or something.

    No, really!

    Vince Runza
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  • Profile picture of the author codenaam
    Well, I guess there is some "gurus" or other "characters" who teach the wrong stuff (like "any link is a link" sort of stuff)...

    I have several blogs and see the same problem. I am also a member of Unique Article Wizard and article submissions are moderated in this system (unlike in other systems), which avoids a lot of crap. However, in this system you see that people submit to totally off topic categories (like an article about cars to a category like "travel" or something of the sort).

    Problem is also that the spinner software out there is crappy. Believe me, I have tried a lot of those and even The Best Spinner (which I think is pretty ok) is far from flawless. Since I want to make a living on the Net I am doing some testing now to create a far more effective way of spinning. It will take more time to write an article, but after that you will be able to do decent submissions with quality content and without words glued together, double spaces, typos and what have you...

    I am online now for a year and I have seen so many articles like your example, it isn't even funny. It is wasting of everybody's time, you are totally right on that. I hope to finish my testing soon so I can make this new way of spinning available to all... Probably for free and Word based so anybody with Word on his computer can use it. If anybody is interested in such a feature, let me know in this thread so I can also see if this is needed and wanted or that I am just think this is needed while it actually isn't.
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  • Profile picture of the author Vicken
    I think main task of such kind of articles is to get backlink, normally these kind of articles have one or two backlinks in author resource. To us they are useless to them they work.
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  • Profile picture of the author markowe
    It's just another form of spam, pure and simple. I tested out a... hmm... well-known automated article submission software, thinking, OK, let's see what this is all about. I carefully hand-spun an article - no automated 'synonimizing', that's just a joke, as we see in the OP. Unfortunately, I tried some fancy nested spinning of the article title too, and it went wrong, left in all the variants, complete mess, and it went out to dozens of article directories like that, and got published by a fair number, I might add! Very embarassing. Now I just republish articles by hand to a few choice directories, after EZA has approved of course, with minimal rewriting. Most article directories seem to NOT be bothered about dupe content...
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  • Profile picture of the author webairalex
    I also looks like and article that was translated through an automated translator, probably a IM with no acess to a good translating service!
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  • Profile picture of the author Gavan
    LOL! Looks like a poorly spun article. Spun articles can be almost indistinguishable from unique ones, but you have to put in the work and spin them properly. Otherwise you just get worthless junk like that.
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  • Profile picture of the author H.Miller
    Just someone trying to spin an article without success. I don't know why people would think submitting an article like that would even be beneficial. No one is even going to read past the first sentence.
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    • Profile picture of the author anmatt
      This was a very informative thread. I've seen spam comments (before I got turned on to Akismet) that read kind of like that and I always wondered how anyone could write like that.

      I write all my articles myself and don't spin them or anything. It seems easier to me to just write them and do it right than to try to learn about all this spinning and whatever other kind of automated writing tools. Sometimes the brain is the best tool LOL

      I'm going to bookmark your article directory and maybe submit an article or two. Don't worry, you'll get only the best from me.

      ~anmatt
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      • Profile picture of the author howinfo
        Originally Posted by anmatt View Post


        I'm going to bookmark your article directory and maybe submit an article or two. Don't worry, you'll get only the best from me.

        ~anmatt
         New members are always welcome, looking forward to receiving your articles.
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  • Profile picture of the author Warrior65
    I would have made about half way thru the first sentence before I deleted it. I won't let stuff like that waste my time, it's too valuble.
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