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Client dissatisfied with service - how do I proceed with this PayPal dispute?

by vip-ip
21 replies
Hello fellow Warriors,

I desperately need advice from people who have had experience with fighting buyers' disputes over digital services. I've spent about a half hour searching through threads on here and was surprised that no thread has asked the same thing I'm about to ask. Let me tell you the story.

I'm a content provider. I write articles for people. I charge a good bit - $3.50 per 100 words. I want people to have high expectations of me, and I try my best to deliver on that.

One of my good clients recently placed an order for 20 articles, the total came to exactly $200. About a month and a half before that, he ordered $100 worth of content and he was happy with it. I used Dragon Naturally Speaking to write these so I can get them done quickly. I made a crucial mistake, though: I was using the speech recognition software on a new laptop, where it wasn't configured properly, and it produced very poor results. I proofread it as I skimmed it, but apparently I didn't catch all the errors.

Now, I always tell my clients that if they have any problems with my content, they need to let me know so I can make it right. Sounds like a reasonable promise at $3.50 per 100 words, right?

Anyways, this client was not happy about some typos that I didn't fix, and instead of asking for corrections he disputed BOTH THE $200 AND THE MONTH-AND-A-HALF-OLD $100 TRANSACTIONS. After inquiring about it and asking to cancel the dispute so I can fix the articles to make it right for him, he said he no longer wishes to work with me and will not cancel the dispute. I promised to fix the content as per our agreement, because all online services sales are final. The buyer said he wasn't interested.

I advised my client that digital services are not covered by Buyers Protection, and that I am being overly courteous by actually making an effort to fix this, instead of blatantly ignoring the dispute (since "significantly not as described" only covers physical products). He said he's done over $100k of business with PayPal this year, and that they will likely side with him because he hasn't had any chargeback problems with anyone else in the past 5 years.

Here's my question: the Buyer's Protection policy only covers physical goods - but so does the Seller's Protection policy. Whom will PayPal be more likely to side with, and what should I do to increase my chances of getting my money back?

Should I escalate this to a PayPal claim? I have a negative PayPal balance, and it's totally undeserved, because I'm making it up to a long-term client. I'm fine with no longer working with him after this, but for the time being, these $300 need to be back in my account.

Please help me!

Best Regards,
vip-ip ...
#chargeback #claim #client #dispute #dissatisfied #paypal #proceed #protection #service
  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    You didn't proof your work properly before sending it to the client? Bonehead mistake if you ask me. Don't let that happen again for sure. Most disputes can be avoided if you check your work carefully. Try giving him 20 additional articles for free as a way of apologizing. I bet he drops the dispute if you do. But whatever you do make sure to won the problem. Because it was your fault any way you look at it.

    But don't beat yourself up. It happens. Man do I know that!
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  • Profile picture of the author getsmartt
    In the long run it will make no difference.

    If he really wants his money back he will most likely get it, either by disputing the charge with his bank account or credit card, whichever he actually used for the purchase. If he happened to use the funds in his PayPal account, then you may win but it will be several weeks down the road.

    You cannot by the way ignore the dispute, you must click through to resolve it. You are offering "intangible goods" and should supply some proof of digital delivery.

    Good Luck

    James
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by vip-ip View Post

    I always tell my clients that if they have any problems with my content, they need to let me know so I can make it right. Sounds like a reasonable promise at $3.50 per 100 words, right?
    Yes and no.

    "Any problems" covers a lot of things, doesn't it?

    If by that you mean that if there are things they don't like, you'll change them, then yes: fair enough. If you're referring to errors they find (e.g. in grammar/spelling), then this is a different matter. You should do that, obviously, but errors (and especially errors from having used Dragon to write their articles) shouldn't be there in the first place in the product sent to them, and they're entitled to be pretty displeased if there are some. Don't you agree?

    Originally Posted by vip-ip View Post

    Should I escalate this to a PayPal claim?
    Originally Posted by vip-ip View Post

    for the time being, these $300 need to be back in my account.
    With apologies, I'm not quite with you, here. It isn't yet a PayPal claim, but the $300 is gone from your account? How exactly has this happened?
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    • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
      Without hearing both sides of the story, it's hard to
      comment on the best way forward.

      However...

      Why should the client have to proof-read the work
      you did for them? That's YOUR job.

      The client wants to outsource the writing of articles
      to you to SAVE them time and hassle. They don't want
      to waste time having to re-check your work.

      If you had given more attention to detail on the job
      then maybe the client would not have asked for a
      refund in the first place.

      Learn the lesson to pay more attention to whatever
      work you produce for clients.

      If the client is truly dissatisfied, then refund them
      and move on.

      Just because you need the $300 is no reason not to
      do the right thing and refund - if that's the case.

      Dedicated to mutual success,

      Shaun
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  • Profile picture of the author talfighel
    From my own experience, your $200 is gone. There is no way you can win because this dispute favors that client.

    This has happened to me before with a few products and the client always won.

    I think that you should refund the person the money and move on.

    Tal
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    • Profile picture of the author Silas Hart
      You are likely going to lose that money. PayPal offers no protection for services and digital products. Also, PayPal is more buyer friendly than they are seller friendly.

      What you could do is ship him something, get a tracking number, and hope PayPal's "automation" takes over and sees that there is proof that an item was sent you MIGHT have a chance, and you have to hope he isn't smart enough to call his card company and do a chargeback.
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      • Profile picture of the author vip-ip
        Originally Posted by FaJeeb View Post

        You are likely going to lose that money. PayPal offers no protection for services and digital products. Also, PayPal is more buyer friendly than they are seller friendly.

        What you could do is ship him something, get a tracking number, and hope PayPal's "automation" takes over and sees that there is proof that an item was sent you MIGHT have a chance, and you have to hope he isn't smart enough to call his card company and do a chargeback.
        The charge was for articles delivered "significantly not as described," not "never received." I could print them all out and mail them along with a CD, but that won't make PayPal request a copy of my articles for them to judge if it's proofread enough or not.

        Best Regards,
        vip-ip ...
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
        Originally Posted by FaJeeb View Post

        You are likely going to lose that money. PayPal offers no protection for services and digital products. Also, PayPal is more buyer friendly than they are seller friendly.

        What you could do is ship him something, get a tracking number, and hope PayPal's "automation" takes over and sees that there is proof that an item was sent you MIGHT have a chance, and you have to hope he isn't smart enough to call his card company and do a chargeback.
        This is rubbish. While PayPal is not considered a bank, it is not allowed to engage in illegal activity, such as aiding and abetting a fraudulent transaction.

        In regards to PP innitiated disputes, if you sell through PayPal, not only must you thoroughly read through PP's seller's ToS, you must have a clear cut Refund Policy and when it comes to product delivery, you must store it in a members area that the buyer has to log in and access. That way you can prove the buyer accessed and the content.

        If PP ignores this and grants a refund anyway, they are violating the law.

        When it comes to charge-backs, it is the buyers bank who decides whether the charge-back is actionable, not PP, and because they are a regulated bank, they must follow federal banking laws. Which means they are not allowed to break the law either and aid fraudulent transactions where it can be proved that the purchaser accessed the content and the refund period(If any) has expired.

        The reason you rarely hear about people being successful in fighting disputes and charge-backs is because most people don't even try, they allow themselves to be walked over.

        Chris
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        • Profile picture of the author Silas Hart
          Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

          This is rubbish. While PayPal is not considered a bank, it is not allowed to engage in illegal activity, such as aiding and abetting a fraudulent transaction.

          In regards to PP innitiated disputes, if you sell through PayPal, not only must you thoroughly read through PP's seller's ToS, you must have a clear cut Refund Policy and when it comes to product delivery, you must store it in a members area that the buyer has to log in and access. That way you can prove the buyer accessed and the content.

          If PP ignores this and grants a refund anyway, they are violating the law.

          When it comes to charge-backs, it is the buyers bank who decides whether the charge-back is actionable, not PP, and because they are a regulated bank, they must follow federal banking laws. Which means they are not allowed to break the law either and aid fraudulent transactions where it can be proved that the purchaser accessed the content and the refund period(If any) has expired.

          The reason you rarely hear about people being successful in fighting disputes and charge-backs is because most people don't even try, they allow themselves to be walked over.

          Chris
          PayPal is a bank whom received their license from Luxembourg. Not sure if you are clear of this because in your first sentence you say "While PayPal is not considered a bank, it is not allowed to engage in illegal activity, such as aiding and abetting a fraudulent transaction." but then say "When it comes to charge-backs, it is the buyers bank who decides whether the charge-back is actionable, not PP, and because they are a regulated bank, they must follow federal banking laws." but you may be talking about the Bank that is filling the charge-back, and not actually PayPal.

          You are simply stating the reason why people are going after PayPal now, after years of abuse. PayPal will not consider another parties own ToS to work together with their own. If you say "No Refunds, Please contact me to resolve any issues before you make any actions" - it does not matter, you use PayPal, both parties must accept PayPal's ToS even if it isn't directly present to them.

          The cold truth to PayPal is that there is little to no human investigation in disputes. I know, because I've gone through not hundreds, but thousands. Last I counted, it was in the realm of 4,000. I do not offer bad products, a seller experiences fraud as the cost of doing business not only on eBay, but online while accept PayPal as a payment method. I've also been working with PayPal for 6 or more years). The lack of PayPals human investigation is why I cited a simple method of providing information the PayPal system is looking for to resolve a dispute quickly. If you would like to test such things, pay someone, have them file a dispute and close it. That person will be unable to file a dispute again for whatever reason. When it comes to actual charge-backs, PayPal will cater to the buyer. Fraudulent or not. In PayPals defense (something they use literally as their defense on this matter) - The cost of investigating each claim would be more than the money lost through online fraud as they feel that number is very small. (Something I do not agree with, and I bet you do not agree with either.)

          If anyone hasn't noticed, or even bothered to look, PayPals actual ToS are very loose and anyone experienced in online transactions know why. The OP's PayPal account is now considered a Higher Risk than normal account users because of One dispute. I would not be surprised if his next transaction resulted in PayPal automatically freezing his funds, not allowing him access for 6 months if the money isn't automatically returned to the sender. Something else that doesn't comply with Federal laws and regulations.
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  • Profile picture of the author Margo Tuul
    Digital goods are protected. There's actually option for "services" when you pay or transfer your money.

    Did your client used any of the articles? If so, you can explain it in dispute, make sure you take pictures where his articles are up and post links. This is only way you can fight back. You can say that thous used articles are no good to you either. You can't sell used articles.

    If he didn't use, then you have nothing. You need to refund him. If you don't, then PayPal will do.
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  • Profile picture of the author KevinTorrence
    I've had a few disputes against me through PayPal. I contacted & tried to work out things with my customers ... usually PayPal goes with my side because it was digital & I made things right.

    But.. like you said, you screwed up and the customer isn't happy. If I were you, I'd correct the articles for the client no matter what, and let the PayPal dispute ride out.

    I'm also pretty passive about things like that, so I'd just eat it if I lost the dispute & look at it a $$$ lesson learned ... and know that I made things right, did my best customer service-wise, & kept my integrity throughout.
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  • Profile picture of the author vip-ip
    You all are right, proofreading is my job and I didn't do it well enough. I am now going back to revise the articles, but the client is still pissed. Fine - be pissed; you should be, because I screwed up. I still think that service sales are final, at least in my case, because that was the agreement, and I am doing work to make it right. Both of my transactions are "Held" right now. What do I need to do to prove to PayPal that I did my part of the agreement, now it's time to drop the dispute?

    Alexa,
    It isn't yet a PayPal claim, but the $300 is gone from your account? How exactly has this happened?
    Right now both charges appear as disputed for reason of being "Not as described." The page on my end of PayPal says: "You or [the client] can ask PayPal to investigate by escalating this dispute to a claim anytime between [now] and December 31, 2010." My options right now are to 1) send messages to the client via PayPal (useless - I can do this over email), 2) grant a full refund, 3) offer a partial refund, 4) escalate this dispute to a PayPal claim. What should I do?

    Shaun,
    Learn the lesson to pay more attention to whatever
    work you produce for clients.
    Ditto.

    Kevin,
    But.. like you said, you screwed up and the customer isn't happy. If I were you, I'd correct the articles for the client no matter what, and let the PayPal dispute ride out.
    That's exactly the route I want to take. The point of letting it "ride out" would be to get the money that I worked for.

    I see it kind of like being treated poorly at a car shop: if your oil change took too long or they used poorer quality motor oil than you expected, you're not going to charge back with American Express over it. You're simply going to go some place else to get it done next time, and tell all your friends not to go to the first car shop. Is my analogy somehow wrong?

    Best Regards,
    vip-ip ...
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  • Profile picture of the author vip-ip
    This thread can now be closed, I called PayPal and got the matter resolved to my satisfaction. I now have about 15 articles to proofread so I can send the final project to my client.

    Thank you so much for all of your contributions, I have learned quite a bit in the past 3 hours.

    Best Regards,
    vip-ip ...
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by vip-ip View Post

      This thread can now be closed, I called PayPal and got the matter resolved to my satisfaction. I now have about 15 articles to proofread so I can send the final project to my client.

      Thank you so much for all of your contributions, I have learned quite a bit in the past 3 hours.

      Best Regards,
      vip-ip ...
      So, what was the resolution? By the way, he was blowing smoke when he said they would side with him because he had processed hundreds of thousands with them this year. Their TOS doesn't say digital products aren't covered unless you spend lot's of money with us.
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  • Profile picture of the author Margo Tuul
    Edit: Didn't see that you got things sorted
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    • Profile picture of the author vip-ip
      Originally Posted by Margo Tuul View Post

      Every product is returnable...if it's unused.
      I don't sell products, I sell services. Again, kind of like oil changes at a car shop. While you're 100% right, all services sales are final as per my agreement with the client. I don't say this to come off as an a####le, it's just the way business should be done.

      One thing is when a transmission shop charges you a full replacement price for a rebuild - that's just wrong, and frankly illegal. But another thing is when a transmission shop does a job, then services it for free on a warranty claim, and then the buyer still calls American Express to say he didn't get what he paid for. Now THAT's wrong.

      Best Regards,
      vip-ip ...
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  • Profile picture of the author PPC-Coach
    Glad it worked out for you.

    I bet the client still used your first batch too.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lauryn
    Interesting thread. Glad you got things resolved.
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    I Go Hard = "Slanguage" for putting forth a lot of effort.

    Don't be an arse and try to flip something you clearly have no knowledge of against me.

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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    FaJeeb, perhaps you should email the following warriors, Kevin Riley, Big Mike(Incansoft, whole business uses PP, runs over 1 mill a year) Sid Hale(RAP) I can keep on going if you like?

    As far as Luxembourg, you are correct, but that is in Luxembourg, not the United States, Australia, the UK etc. So it is moot point. Nor does it have any effect on what I said previously.

    If I said PP is not a regulated bank, why would I turn around and then say it is? You need to re-read that part of the post.

    Respectfully
    Chris
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    • Profile picture of the author Silas Hart
      Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

      FaJeeb, perhaps you should email the following warriors, Kevin Riley, Big Mike(Incansoft, whole business uses PP, runs over 1 mill a year) Sid Hale(RAP) I can keep on going if you like?

      As far as Luxembourg, you are correct, but that is in Luxembourg, not the United States, Australia, the UK etc. So it is moot point. Nor does it have any effect on what I said previously.

      If I said PP is not a regulated bank, why would I turn around and then say it is? You need to re-read that part of the post.

      Respectfully
      Chris
      I am not getting your point. I also do not see the purpose in pointing out people who claim to be doing over 1 million a year and using PayPal. I use PayPal too, actually, I use PayPal as my gateway but still use a regular Merchant account. (PayFlow Pro) I would like to have you e-mail the rest of the businesses in the world that do not use PayPal, or I could tell you all of them if would like but I would probably have to outsource that kind of work as the list is far too big.

      You went off about how PayPal Has to abide by federal banking laws, and I said they should, this is why people, and businesses are Now going after PayPal. I did not say "No, PayPal shouldn't." PayPal has not always followed the rules in the past. People feel so cheated by PayPal, that several decided to get together and file a class action lawsuit against PayPal. LINK

      People make typing errors. Sometimes people still claim that PayPal isn't a bank because they aren't well aware that they recently became one. I was just trying to clarify if you knew PayPal was actually a bank or not.

      I wasn't saying you were wrong. I was saying that PayPal is not known to follow rules, regulations, laws, etc. I wasn't even saying PayPal is a crappy company, I stated that a lot of PayPal disputes are done electronically. PayPal does not value a sellers or buyers ToS or any kind of agreement other than PayPals own ToS.
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