Writers and "Writers"

71 replies
I hate to say this but a lot of article writers over-estimate their capabilities and quality.

This includes native English writers as well as those who have English as their second, third... etc, language. Expectations may be lower on the latter group but more than a few natives produce paid content that is barely on the level of the XX-language writers. Yes, you will get loads of crap from many non-natives but it is also surprisingly easy to find those that do deliver perfectly good, sometimes great articles. The same price point may often deliver the goods from those you least expect it.

This is the main reason why the market has become so competitive for many native English writers.

You are not delivering.

If you expect the buyer to come back and pay for your native services again you need to deliver more than just words. Correct English is of course a given and not hard to supply, but there has to be some meat and bones, some structure and flow, perhaps even a hint of a voice. Words are not enough. Anyone who is ok with grammar and using Open Office will produce a article without spelling errors. But is it good? Is the content coherent? Does it speak to the reader? At least a little bit? To be worth more than the non-native rate, it needs to.

You get what you pay for.. or at least that is what a buyer hopes for, and if you hype your stuff it better deliver or someone else will grab the jobs next time. Luckily, there are several.. quite many actually.. content writers from both camps on WF that produce great stuff and they are hopefully reaping the profits from their well-done work.

To those who feel the cold breeze of competition - take a break from your own writing and buy a bunch of articles on similar subjects within your own price range, and check out what you are up against.

You may find that many are delivering below your own writing. Ok, then perhaps you should increase your rate and make a stand for the quality that you deliver.

Or you may find that you are on the same level, or perhaps below, the quality of competition in your price range. Ok, then you have 2 options: Keep the price and raise your quality in order to supply that which is expected of you. Or, face the fact that you may not be worth every penny, deflate the ego and settle on a price point that is somewhat lower but that may bring you more business from that customer segment.

.................

To those buying content. I suggest you go on a test-run now and then. It will keep your writers on their toes and you may perhaps find some of the golden nuggets that are out there.

.................

To the many writers out there who do Write Good Stuff, take pride in the fact that your craft is good.


Mike
#article writing #content #e-books #outsourcing #writers
  • Profile picture of the author deertrail
    ...And if you DO have someone in your employ who Writes Good Stuff, hope and pray she doesn't wake up, smell the coffee, and go create her own empire instead of building yours

    -Bryan
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by deertrail View Post

      ...And if you DO have someone in your employ who Writes Good Stuff, hope and pray she doesn't wake up, smell the coffee, and go create her own empire instead of building yours

      -Bryan
      Pay your good writers well. They are worth their weight in gold.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        It all sounds good - and of course it's common sense.

        However, every time someone posts "need money fast - what can I do" (which will likely happen within a few hours:p) - watch how quickly people jump in to suggest "write articles for money".

        Never mind the spelling and punctuation errors in the post that started the thread - or the total inability to use English phrases competently.

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author Vogin
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Never mind the spelling and punctuation errors in the post that started the thread - or the total inability to use English phrases competently.
          That's the most dangerous thing that can happen if someone decides to bash pretty much anything - he or she must deliver 100% in the same area, otherwise it's of no use.

          Happened to me so many times that I no longer do it and although it annoys me, I focus on what's being said instead of how is it written - after all, English is my second language and there are hundreds of things I probably don't know, let alone use them.

          On the other hand, I'm excellent at my first language () and people around me are painfully aware of it, because I point out each and every of their mistakes with no mercy, doing almost none myself - I guess it's a shame that I suffer from the ESL syndrome, I could have been a good writer..
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        • Profile picture of the author Fun to Write
          This made me chuckle because it's so true.
          Become an article writer thread popping up in 5 . . . 4 . . . 3 . . . 2 . . .


          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          It all sounds good - and of course it's common sense.

          However, every time someone posts "need money fast - what can I do" (which will likely happen within a few hours:p) - watch how quickly people jump in to suggest "write articles for money".

          Never mind the spelling and punctuation errors in the post that started the thread - or the total inability to use English phrases competently.

          kay
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        • Profile picture of the author Brad Spencer
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          It all sounds good - and of course it's common sense.

          However, every time someone posts "need money fast - what can I do" (which will likely happen within a few hours:p) - watch how quickly people jump in to suggest "write articles for money".

          Never mind the spelling and punctuation errors in the post that started the thread - or the total inability to use English phrases competently.

          kay
          Kay,

          Those "write articles for money" threads are pretty good for the people who need to start. The problem with a lot of stuff is that no one provides a basic "affect vs effect" type ebook or blog post with common English errors. On top of that...people don't know how to properly outline an article.

          Outline+ Basic English Grammar Example Guide would make newbie writers 100% better from the get go.

          Too much like work to be good I guess

          Cheers,

          Brad
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    • Profile picture of the author 82ana
      Originally Posted by deertrail View Post

      ...And if you DO have someone in your employ who Writes Good Stuff, hope and pray she doesn't wake up, smell the coffee, and go create her own empire instead of building yours

      -Bryan
      I have many of my clients still checking for open dates... *wicked*
      Just today I got an email basically asking me to name my price...

      Goes to show, if you take pride in your craft you should start building your own empire instead of others. *wink*. Good writers/freelancers are a dying breed.

      Cheers,
      S
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      • Profile picture of the author wayne60618
        I noticed Paul Myer didn't take this thread as an opportunity to mention his product Creating Killer Content. Between that and Paul Hancox's Presell Mastery, people will be spitting out killer articles in no time. Seriously good investments for anyone who wants to be a good writer.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Wayne,
          I noticed Paul Myer didn't take this thread as an opportunity to mention his product
          Thank you for the kind words. That said, it's not appropriate for anyone to promote their own products in the discussion forums. There are rules that some people can bend or break occasionally, but that isn't one of them.
          Paul Hancox's Presell Mastery
          I hadn't heard about that one yet. Thank you. I've just ordered it.

          I have never seen a product from Paul Hancox that, intelligently used, wasn't good for a big boost in profits.


          Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author goindeep
      Originally Posted by deertrail View Post

      ...And if you DO have someone in your employ who Writes Good Stuff, hope and pray she doesn't wake up, smell the coffee, and go create her own empire instead of building yours

      -Bryan
      lol. Too right bruv
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    • Profile picture of the author ELK
      ...And if you DO have someone in your employ who Writes Good Stuff, hope and pray she doesn't wake up, smell the coffee, and go create her own empire instead of building yours

      -Bryan

      I have to say, that is inspiring to me. That's what I believe (hope) I am beginning right now - my own empire. I've written for others for about 4 years and I'm ready to break out more on my own.

      I've made good strides in my writing since the beginning of all this, but it's the "building" part that I need to focus on. Steering my own ship, if you will. Well, figuring out how to get the thing started first, pointing in the direction I need to go, then getting it moving, and THEN making sure I'm steering it properly!

      Anyway, "building my own empire" is a phrase I'll hang on to. Thanks!
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Mike,
    I hate to say this but a lot of article writers over-estimate their capabilities and quality.
    That is a generous understatement.

    The problem is that those who lack the understanding of what makes for good writing are incapable of judging it, in themselves or others. As a rule, these are folks who also don't read much, if at all.

    The same lack of understanding is why so many people see crappy writing and describe it as "high quality." It meets the best standards they know, and they can't distinguish beyond that level. Given the number of people whose reading level is below par, it's not surprising that the third rate content often peddled by "article" writers still sells.

    Mind you, I'm talking here about stuff that's supposed to be read by humans, not search engine fodder. Whole different animal there.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      As a rule, these are folks who also don't read much, if at all.
      Nail head ... hammer ... perfect hit. Voracious reading makes such a difference in someone's writing ability.
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

        Nail head ... hammer ... perfect hit. Voracious reading makes such a difference in someone's writing ability.
        Voracious reading? You should take it easy with all them books.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Paul,
          Voracious reading? You should take it easy with all them books.
          He doesn't read them himself. He shreds them for hamster bedding and then has the hamsters do his writing for him. I believe he calls it "petsourcing."


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Paul,He doesn't read them himself. He shreds them for hamster bedding and then has the hamsters do his writing for him. I believe he calls it "petsourcing."


            Paul
            Damn redneck! Quit giving away all my trade secrets.

            (Typed by hamster #328)
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Kevin,
              Damn redneck!
              That, sir, is redundant.
              Quit giving away all my trade secrets.
              Ooops. There goes another planned WSO. "Petsourcing Secrets: Get off the hamster wheel! How I made $186,724.48 in 3 weeks, and all it cost me was a large bag of rodent food!"


              Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Fun to Write
    I agree with the OP in that content writers need to find the correct market for their level of service and quality. You've also got to find your target customer who is willing to pay you what you ask.

    Example: I started my article writing service a couple of months ago, and as I researched the competition, decided on a mid-level price point initially. I was comfortable with that because I have spent several years writing articles for my own marketing and feel my level of writing reflects my experience.

    I was able to get paid this rate with no problem. I offer high quality and the feedback so far has been good.

    The hard thing is finding a steady stream of clients. This means you've got to really think about who exactly you wish to provide services to - the low end, mid range or high end of the scale. You really have to define yourself and your skill level so you don't choose the wrong customer base.

    Things have changed a bit for me since I started out and now I have a successful SEO partner who is providing me with more business. Because his clients are used to paying higher rates, I decided to raise my rates to match that particular market.

    I know that not everybody can do this. I feel many writers need to spend years developing their online writing skills before they can offer services on the higher end.
    It's a skill that is developed over time and some don't realize that, unfortunately.

    But, in the end, your customers will determine your true value and worth and pay you accordingly. If you can prove yourself with the skills then great, if you can't, then it's back to the trenches.
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    • Profile picture of the author mrdomains
      Originally Posted by Fun to Write View Post

      But, in the end, your customers will determine your true value and worth and pay you accordingly.
      I agree. This is why it is important to identify the correct level to play at. Can only be done by testing the boundaries. Some may be selling themselves short, and vice versa.
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  • Profile picture of the author ArticlePrince
    It's true, a grammatically perfect article not only isn't difficult, it might not be the best thing for your niche anyway. Articles should have jsut a little bit of cpoy writing to them to carry the reader through while informing them; it helps greatly with click through rates. I think how much traffic and how well that traffic has converted is a much better indicator of writing skill than the number of articles, but to each their own...
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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    Originally Posted by mrdomains View Post

    I hate to say this but a lot of article writers over-estimate their capabilities and quality.
    I hate to say it myself, because when I say it, it sounds like arrogant professional whingeing (if there is such a thing, and if not, I just invented it). But I'm very happy indeed for you to say it, and I'll just agree with it.
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  • Profile picture of the author TristanH
    YES. I agree. Soooo many "writers" out there flat out suck at writing in all of its aspects: grammar, usage, spelling, formatting, getting an idea across, clarity...

    I'm not a freelance writer but I do feel for the "legit" ones out there who have to fight really hard to be noticed.
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  • Profile picture of the author BenoitT
    If you're a good writer, you will be able to have alot of connection and be able to get jobs after that. Not a so big deal.
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  • Profile picture of the author donhx
    Originally Posted by mrdomains View Post

    I hate to say this but a lot of article writers over-estimate their capabilities and quality.

    Mike
    I hate to say it, but a lot of IMers over-estimate the value of their product. I am a champion of quality writing for a living wage in the U.S., but to get conversions you need the reach the right audience with the right offer at the right price at the right time. This usually doesn't happen because most IMers are on a fishing expedition. Yes, testing is the answer, but that costs money too.

    I have been writing for decades, and have been writing for the Internet since its inception, and I know how hard it is to hit the sweet spot. No one hits it by writing alone. However, to give yourself a chance I would recommend these principles:

    1. Never use a writer from a different country or culture other than the one where you intend to sell your product. Every page is a landing page and each must embody sales psychology. Offshore people say they can write American English (for example), but none say they understand what motivates people to buy things in this culture. That, of course, is essential. Motivation differs by culture.

    2. Don't purchase articles or other content based on a cheap price. Buy on the basis of value for money. Buying cheap keeps you forever poor because you end up perpetuating a lousy Return On Investment (ROI). ROI is everything.

    3. Pay a good writer, but tweak it yourself. No one knows your business like you do, so you are the one who needs to take responsibility for it. Your tune-up should take into consideration the other key issues I mentioned... the audience, the offer, the pricing and the timing.

    Good writing has clarity and is informative and persuasive, but it is not magic.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
      Banned
      Originally Posted by donhx View Post

      I hate to say it, but a lot of IMers over-estimate the value of their product. I am a champion of quality writing for a living wage in the U.S., but to get conversions you need the reach the right audience with the right offer at the right price at the right time. This usually doesn't happen because most IMers are on a fishing expedition. Yes, testing is the answer, but that costs money too.

      I have been writing for decades, and have been writing for the Internet since its inception, and I know how hard it is to hit the sweet spot. No one hits it by writing alone. However, to give yourself a chance I would recommend these principles:

      1. Never use a writer from a different country or culture other than the one where you intend to sell your product. Every page is a landing page and each must embody sales psychology. Offshore people say they can write American English (for example), but none say they understand what motivates people to buy things in this culture. That, of course, is essential. Motivation differs by culture.

      2. Don't purchase articles or other content based on a cheap price. Buy on the basis of value for money. Buying cheap keeps you forever poor because you end up perpetuating a lousy Return On Investment (ROI). ROI is everything.

      3. Pay a good writer, but tweak it yourself. No one knows your business like you do, so you are one who needs to take responsibility for it. Your tune-up should take into consideration the other key issues I mentioned... the audience, the offer, the pricing and the timing.

      Good writing has clarity and is informative and persuasive, but it is not magic.
      I don't really agree with the "living wage" argument. And for some reason, a lot of article writers bring this up. They'll justify their price by telling me how much their overhead is...college degree, house, computer, office supplies. Not to sound insensitive, but you're never going to convince me that you have lots of overhead as an article writer.

      I sell physical products and I can't imagine the reaction of a customer if I told them the cost was a little higher because "Well, I have student loans, a car payment, and a house that I need to pay for".
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      • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
        Banned
        But on the original topic, I agree. The only writers I've paid REALLY high figures are technical writers that have significant experience in a given area. Those people ARE worth the money they charge.

        I have tested out writers anywhere from the $10-$50/article range. And in my view, there isn't much difference between a $15 article and a $50 one. I think you can find plenty of good ones between $15-$20.

        The problem writers have, and will continue to have, is the competition. For awhile I had a neighbor that wanted to work from home and make a little money. She was an English major and HS English teacher. She charged me $8/article and they were AWESOME. She just had a lot of general knowledge of things so she could knock out Good/Great articles on a topic in no time. She said that she could do between 2-3 articles per hour which meant an hourly wage for $16-$24. She was happy and so was I.
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      • Profile picture of the author donhx
        Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

        I don't really agree with the "living wage" argument. And for some reason, a lot of article writers bring this up. They'll justify their price by telling me how much their overhead is...college degree, house, computer, office supplies. Not to sound insensitive, but you're never going to convince me that you have lots of overhead as an article writer.
        Those who don't pay a living wage are exploiting workers. It's that simple. That's not nice and society has fought against such exploitation throughout history. You see how that fight was waged in the American Civil War, the rise of Labor Unions and the spread of Communism to give just a few examples. Wise people do not try to make profits off the backs of labor, they make profits through providing superior products or services.

        Anyone who thinks the way to increased profits is based on exploiting workers has a faulty business plan, IMO. Only short-sighted people try to operate a business on that model.

        I never want to work for anyone who worries about what my overhead may be. People hire me because I bring talent to the table. My value comes from my experience, creativity, insight and broad knowledge of the marketplace, not the amount of my light bill.

        But I know... I'll never convince you.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
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          Originally Posted by donhx View Post

          Those who don't pay a living wage are exploiting workers. It's that simple. That's not nice and society has fought against such exploitation throughout history. You see how that fight was waged in the American Civil War, the rise of Labor Unions and the spread of Communism to give just a few examples. Wise people do not try to make profits off the backs of labor, they make profits through providing superior products or services.

          Anyone who thinks the way to increased profits is based on exploiting workers has a faulty business plan, IMO. Only short-sighted people try to operate a business on that model.

          I never want to work for anyone who worries about what my overhead may be. People hire me because I bring talent to the table. My value comes from my experience, creativity, insight and broad knowledge of the marketplace, not the amount of my light bill.

          But I know... I'll never convince you.
          You're right, you won't convince me I just don't think there are better ways of pricing services than letting the market do it. I've had some great writers that worked for me for $12/article. After a couple months, they had no reason to work for $12/article because demand was pushing their price up to $20. Same thing with employees at a corporation. There is a cost to underpaying your workers, namely the hiring/training cost when they jump ship.

          I'm not saying that overhead SHOULD be a concern. I'm just saying that I don't like it when writers try to justify their prices by telling me they have overhead costs. For one, I don't care what your overhead is. Second, who are you crapping trying to tell me that writing an article involves a lot of overhead?
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          • Profile picture of the author padre
            Most complaints seem to be focused on not wanting to pay for poor workmanship. Totally understandable, but if the article you receive is an asset - by that I mean brings you in money - then maybe $50 is justifiable.

            There is more than just good grammar and sentence structure to consider. The article can;
            pre-sell for your adsense and affiliates
            increase free, targeted traffic to the page (and thus the entire site)
            add to site authority by proper LSI

            If your writer;

            is doing the keyword search,
            the type of copywriting called pre-sell,
            the on-page SEO

            and weaving in the words related to the keyword that work the magic of LSI with the search engines then you are going to have an asset that will benefit your business for years to come . . . instead of just another cost to overhead.

            Cheers
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          • Profile picture of the author Fun to Write
            Those writers should just move on from you, because obviously you're not their ideal client.

            And, good writers are professionals who have expenses just like every other person who conducts business online.

            We have to pay the electric bill to keep our lights on and computers running.

            We have to buy food so that we can keep up the amount of energy needed to think and do our writing work.

            We have to buy office supplies, pay for internet connections, pay for web hosting, etc.

            So, your argument that we don't have any overhead costs doesn't hold water, and certainly doesn't deal in reality.

            And, nobody's crapping on you. You just don't like what we're saying.

            Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

            I'm not saying that overhead SHOULD be a concern. I'm just saying that I don't like it when writers try to justify their prices by telling me they have overhead costs. For one, I don't care what your overhead is. Second, who are you crapping trying to tell me that writing an article involves a lot of overhead?
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            • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Fun to Write View Post

              Those writers should just move on from you, because obviously you're not their ideal client.

              And, good writers are professionals who have expenses just like every other person who conducts business online.

              We have to pay the electric bill to keep our lights on and computers running.

              We have to buy food so that we can keep up the amount of energy needed to think and do our writing work.

              We have to buy office supplies, pay for internet connections, pay for web hosting, etc.

              So, your argument that we don't have any overhead costs doesn't hold water, and certainly doesn't deal in reality.

              And, nobody's crapping on you. You just don't like what we're saying.
              I'm not against the idea of paying big sums for a service. I pay my CPA a pretty penny even though I don't think it really takes him a ton of time. But I do it because he helps me out a lot, keeps me out of trouble, and is competent. Same thing with my web designers and programmers.

              The difference is I don't question their prices because they provide good value for what they charge. If I did, they would just say "Well, that's what I charge". I don't know why, but writers (and photographers actually) both come across pretty defensive about their rates. If I say, "That's a little more than I wanted to spend, but thanks", I usually will get a response that starts talking about their overhead. Bills, lights, food, etc.

              I don't know why, it just comes across as funny to me becuase I could never imagine my CPA or Programmer saying something like that. Plus I think it kind of opens you up for critism. I had a photographer come out to take pictures for my e-commerce store. He had a pretty hefty rate, which I was ok with. But he was charging me his normal hourly rate for his travel and an hour for lunch. I don't know, but it just seemed absurd to me. I don't pay my lawyer when he goes to lunch or travels to his office, even if he's working for me all day. I think it makes sense to charge over a certain distance though.
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    • Profile picture of the author Vince L
      Originally Posted by donhx View Post

      I hate to say it, but a lot of IMers over-estimate the value of their product.

      Good writing has clarity and is informative and persuasive, but it is not magic.
      Brilliant! I love that come-back Don. And while I agree whole-heartedly with the original premise, I appreciate and will take to heart your tips and advice.

      Thank.
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    • Profile picture of the author padre
      Originally Posted by donhx View Post

      I hate to say it, but a lot of IMers over-estimate the value of their product.

      Good writing has clarity and is informative and persuasive, but it is not magic.
      It is true that product creators can over-rate their babies.

      And it is true what you say about good writing; clear, informative and persuasive.

      But I think great writing really is magic . . . remember the pet rock?

      Cheers
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  • Profile picture of the author Rocked Steady
    there are two types of article writers...the ones you hire for quantity, and the ones you hire for quality. I like to get a per page estimate rather than a $0.02/word type estimate. This way, you get what you need without risking an overpay.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jdub2104
    I have a quick question for those of you that are legitimate Writers, because I am not an any way, shape, or form. I outsource most of my articles I am not very passionate about or don't know too much about. Mainly because It pays the bills.

    I do however, love to write about things I am passionate about such as SEO, Internet Marketing, Fishing, Sports, etc. By no means am I a good writer, but I write anyway because they are my true passions. Do you recommend I hire a professional to look over my copy (or write my copy)... or do I go with my own writing style? Grammar errors and all.. (I've been writing about my true passions for years, more for the joy, rather than the monetary value.)

    I guess my point is... Even though I basically suck at writing, my ability to go deep into my passions could potentially outweigh my grammatical errors. Any thoughts?
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    • Profile picture of the author VirtuallyCapable
      Originally Posted by Jdub2104 View Post

      I have a quick question for those of you that are legitimate Writers, because I am not an any way, shape, or form. I outsource most of my articles I am not very passionate about or don't know too much about. Mainly because It pays the bills.

      I do however, love to write about things I am passionate about such as SEO, Internet Marketing, Fishing, Sports, etc. By no means am I a good writer, but I write anyway because they are my true passions. Do you recommend I hire a professional to look over my copy (or write my copy)... or do I go with my own writing style? Grammar errors and all.. (I've been writing about my true passions for years, more for the joy, rather than the monetary value.)

      I guess my point is... Even though I basically suck at writing, my ability to go deep into my passions could potentially outweigh my grammatical errors. Any thoughts?

      Hi Jared--- Honestly, it depends how bad your writing really is.... because this post doesn't seem too off the wall. I've done lots of proofreading and editing, and I'd be happy to look at a couple pieces of your work and give you an opinion on it.... (no charge, just trying to help)
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    • Profile picture of the author Jdub2104
      Originally Posted by Marianne Gonne View Post

      You should definitely write about the things you love! This is the beauty of the internet: it has enabled people who are not gifted writers to share their passions and have a voice/platform.

      If I were you, I would only hire a professional if you wanted to integrate some copywriting into your content. Otherwise, you've already got what so many other so-called web writers are lacking ... knowledge, passion and the desire to share what you know. There's no substitute for genuine enthusiasm -*it's infectious!
      Thanks! I do believe this is true. I have tried hiring people, especially for my fishing products, but it just didn't come out the same as I wanted.


      Originally Posted by VirtuallyCapable View Post

      Hi Jared--- Honestly, it depends how bad your writing really is.... because this post doesn't seem too off the wall. I've done lots of proofreading and editing, and I'd be happy to look at a couple pieces of your work and give you an opinion on it.... (no charge, just trying to help)

      Thanks! I'm not terrible, English is my first language, although I did fail English once in College (Going to class was the main issue!). I already have some proofreaders, but no-one that is exceptionally skilled at it (Friends for the most part). I will keep you updated! Thanks again.
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  • Profile picture of the author King Shiloh
    Banned
    Content has always been said to be king but some people have always wanted to make it look as if those that churn it (content) out suppose to be slaves.
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  • Profile picture of the author Justin Jordan
    Originally Posted by Ken Rogers View Post

    That's very true, I think writers offering unlimited revisions and then actually fixing what the buyer wanted to be fixed is important as well.
    No, that's a path to insanity. Revisions, yes. Unlimited revision means that you will eventually, no matter how good you are, get a client who insists on tweaking things forever. They will eat your time, your money and probably your soul.

    In a former life, I was wrote and directed television commercials for local businesses. As a favor to a friend, I did a commercial for a car dealership. They asked for changes. They asked me to change them back. They asked for new changes. They asked me to change them back.

    After sixteen, and I am not making that number up, sixteen different versions I gave them the original version back, telling them it was the new version. They said it was perfect. People will tinker with stuff just because they think they should.

    Revisions are good, but you do need to set limits.
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    • Profile picture of the author Audrey Harvey
      Originally Posted by Justin Jordan View Post

      In a former life, I was wrote and directed television commercials for local businesses. As a favor to a friend, I did a commercial for a car dealership. They asked for changes. They asked me to change them back. They asked for new changes. They asked me to change them back.

      After sixteen, and I am not making that number up, sixteen different versions I gave them the original version back, telling them it was the new version. They said it was perfect.
      Great story, Justin, and so true!
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  • Profile picture of the author EvolBaby
    The true test of your writing abilities come from what professionals in the field say of you.

    I'm not talking about your article writing buddies, I'm talking about pros in the field of novels, screenwriting, journalism and more.

    Do you have any of them on any of your sites who give you kudos for your abilities?

    Clients who are smart recognize quality. Clients who are out for a quick buck can only see past their purse. Statistics are the key as should they rise from your writing then your client is a fool not to accommodate you. It leads to greater profit.

    Another thing is how published you are in other fields. Ever have any of your work in print?

    There are levels of writing on a commercial level and for those starting out in IM it can be quite a solid foundation for income and expansion. You learn alot about what your clients' request for. It's like getting paid good money to study.
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  • Good companies and bad companies -- both have products with price tags on them. Ditto for service providers. All these products will sell; only those that deliver the best are purchased again while the bad ones fade into the unforgiving abyss.

    About competition

    If you are doing everything right and if you have a unique selling proposition while you (as a service provider) keep yourself motivated, competition teaches you things. As OP and Dave opine, your competition also sets you up in the field and lets you know where you stand and where you need to go.

    Competition is a non-issue if you are awesome and if you can deliver. Of course, there will be pressure but it's fun. What's business without competition?

    Natives Vs Non-natives

    It's true that almost everyone who gets online and learns that "Writing/Graphic Design/Web design & Programming/VA Services" are one of the easiest and fastest ways to make money and hence they "think" they can write.

    There's a learning curve and everyone has a right to this learning. However, whether you will master it or not-- to the extent that you make a profitable craft out of it -- depends on you.

    A price tag awaits those who emerge successful from the learning curve with a segment of buyers waiting to pay for these services. This price depends on value. So really, it's not about $X or $Y, it's about value.


    Native English speakers don't necessarily make great writers (Why isn't everyone in Australia a Mathew Reilly? Why isn't everyone a Stephen King, a Donald Trump or a Robert T.Kiyosaki (Side note: Robert wasn't native American). Also, Ayn Rand was a Russian Immigrant who settled in the U.S and wrote "Atlas Shrugged" and "The Fountain Head" -- some of the best books ever written.

    Further, I couldn't have said it any better than Paul Myers

    That is a generous understatement.

    The problem is that those who lack the understanding of what makes for good writing are incapable of judging it, in themselves or others. As a rule, these are folks who also don't read much, if at all.

    The same lack of understanding is why so many people see crappy writing and describe it as "high quality." It meets the best standards they know, and they can't distinguish beyond that level. Given the number of people whose reading level is below par, it's not surprising that the third rate content often peddled by "article" writers still sells.

    Mind you, I'm talking here about stuff that's supposed to be read by humans, not search engine fodder. Whole different animal there.
    And yes, pay your writers well
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    • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
      Originally Posted by ashwinsatyanarayana View Post

      Why isn't everyone a Stephen King, a Donald Trump or a Robert T.Kiyosaki (Side note: Robert wasn't native American). Also, Ayn Rand was a Russian Immigrant who settled in the U.S and wrote "Atlas Shrugged" and "The Fountain Head" -- some of the best books ever written.
      Isn't Rich Dad from Hawaii?
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      • Originally Posted by LeeLee View Post

        Isn't Rich Dad from Hawaii?
        Robert T. Kiyosaki was a fourth generation Japanese American, born in Hawaii (yes, very much). He is now a U.S-based author and entrepreneur.

        The company that publishes these "Rich Dad Series" books is now in Scottsdale, AZ.
        S
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  • Profile picture of the author terrapurus
    Frustrated with your writers?

    Well settle in while old uncle T explains a few things ...

    How many publishers understand what they are buying when they order an article? I mean, if you buy a car you might know how many seats it has, service intervals, insurance and registrations costs, fuel consumption, depreciation and resale values. Buy a house and you might look for termites, check out the neighborhood and see if it is convenient to schools and malls.

    But do you really understand articles?

    The answer is no, otherwise this thread would not exist. I want you to think about content this way (just fill in the blanks) -

    The first step in any article is the research. How long do you feel is a reasonable time for a standard writer to research your chosen article topic?

    I want you to spend _____ minutes per article.

    Now, what can you expect?

    5 minutes - go to an article directory or another site and steal what they have written about.

    15 minutes - read through a few articles and generalize

    60 minutes - find genuine issues with the topic and create solutions that will get people to take action.

    So that is the research PER article. Now lets look at the writing phase.

    I expect you to type _____ words per minute for a draft.

    Again, what can you expect?

    50 words per minute - type faster than you can think. I don't care if it is crap, just type!

    20 words per minute - yeah ... I can see what you are trying to say, but are all those filler sentences really necessary?

    5 words per minute - wow ... just ... wow. This is a link magnet!

    Lastly we have editing. Any writer that is worthwhile hiring will let his or her work sit for a while.

    I would expect you to spend _____ minutes editing per article.

    Our last look at expectations -

    2 minutes - did you write this in swahili or a secret code? It has way too many mistakes. But great to spam with.

    5 minutes - EZA rejected your articles! I thought you were a WRITER!!!!

    25 minutes - wow ... again .. .just wow.

    So for the buyers out there who want quality, a good article is going to cost you 2 to 3 hours of work.

    Go to a professional writer and they won't even fart in your direction for less that $40 per hour. You do the math on the cost of good content in this case.

    But then we get publishers saying ..."$100 per article!!!! But I can get that on rentacoder for $4." And this is where we get rants like this one from. It is impossible for a native speaker to produce content at the desired standard for that price. For anyone who loves a laugh on buyers just like this, check out http://clientsfromhell.net/

    The only way for a skilled writer to deliver semi-reasonable content on time and in budget is to take a PLR article, rewrite it and pass it off as all his or her own work. Alternatively, hire a Filipino writer for the research and draft and do the final editing stage personally.

    Let me leave you with this though ... which is the better business investment?

    $100 investment in an article that makes you $200.

    $4 investment in an article that earns you $2?

    Are you in business, or is this just a hobby?
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    • Profile picture of the author Brad Spencer
      Originally Posted by King Shiloh View Post

      Content has always been said to be king but some people have always wanted to make it look as if those that churn it (content) out suppose to be slaves.
      Love this...absolutely love this

      Originally Posted by donhx View Post

      Those who don't pay a living wage are exploiting workers. It's that simple. That's not nice and society has fought against such exploitation throughout history. You see how that fight was waged in the American Civil War, the rise of Labor Unions and the spread of Communism to give just a few examples. Wise people do not try to make profits off the backs of labor, they make profits through providing superior products or services.

      Anyone who thinks the way to increased profits is based on exploiting workers has a faulty business plan, IMO. Only short-sighted people try to operate a business on that model.

      I never want to work for anyone who worries about what my overhead may be. People hire me because I bring talent to the table. My value comes from my experience, creativity, insight and broad knowledge of the marketplace, not the amount of my light bill.

      But I know... I'll never convince you.
      While I think people are responsible for charging what they want, I also agree on your biz model philosophy. I believe wholeheartedly in "you get what you pay for" (except in the case of my writer/assistant...damn she's good and inexpensive).

      Bottom line...I think if you sell based on value you win...price you lose.

      I grew up in Indiana in a huge car town so I've seen the "ship it overseas" first hand. But at the same time...businesses (made up of executives AND workers) must make sure the business as an entity is making money.

      The German economy personifies this in a really cool quasi capitalist/socialist model which is running circles around the American model these days.

      Cheers,

      Brad
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    • Profile picture of the author mrdomains
      Originally Posted by terrapurus View Post

      Well settle in while old uncle T explains a few things ...


      The only way for a skilled writer to deliver semi-reasonable content on time and in budget is to take a PLR article, rewrite it and pass it off as all his or her own work.
      Perhaps you need to sample some of the exellent writers we have here at WF. Many of them do deliver the goods on time, at a reasonable pricepoint, and without resorting to PLR rewrites.
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    • Profile picture of the author Britt Malka
      Nice thread, this one, very interesting.

      Terrapurus, though I agree with you on most of your points, this one stuck out:

      Originally Posted by terrapurus View Post

      I expect you to type _____ words per minute for a draft.

      Again, what can you expect?

      50 words per minute - type faster than you can think. I don't care if it is crap, just type!

      20 words per minute - yeah ... I can see what you are trying to say, but are all those filler sentences really necessary?

      5 words per minute - wow ... just ... wow. This is a link magnet!
      Writing slower doesn't automatically mean a better article. Writing faster doesn't automatically mean a worse article.

      Writing fast could mean that the writer knew what he was writing about, and knew how to type fast ;-)

      As you can see here, I type 80 words per minute, when I don't have to think about what I write:

      How To Write Articles Faster

      When I write slower than that, it's often because I'm grasping for the right words. This doesn't necessarily make for a better article.

      In general, what I do to write as good as I can (for myself, mostly, I prefer to be my own boss) is:

      1) Most of the time, I write about what I know.

      2) When I've done my keyword research, and written the article, I use WhiteSmoke to check grammer, spelling and the overall quality of the text.

      3) Then I send my article to my proofreader. Sometimes, I skip this point, but since I'm not a native English speaker or writer, not only does this help me with the specific article, but it also teaches me a lot of phrases and new words that I can use later on.

      4) I write daily. I play World of Warcraft in my spare time, and all communication there is in English (unless I visit my son on his realm, where they speak French).

      5) Whenever I learn a new neat word or expression, I write it down in my tabbed notebook together with the phrase I found it in as well as a short description. Under F I find: flummoxed: I am completely flummoxed (to confuse; perplex).

      6) I constantly strive to become a better writer, and a better story teller. I challenge myself, and I write, write and write.
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      • Profile picture of the author terrapurus
        Originally Posted by Britt Malka View Post

        Writing slower doesn't automatically mean a better article. Writing faster doesn't automatically mean a worse article.

        Writing fast could mean that the writer knew what he was writing about, and knew how to type fast ;-)

        As you can see here, I type 80 words per minute, when I don't have to think about what I write:
        I fully agree Britt but there was a hidden calculation in those figures. Firstly, a green writer to a topic can read about the topic but will never understand the topic well enough to write engaging prose at 80 words a minute.

        As a writer, what do you think of -

        1. Creating a mind map for an article either during your research phase or at the beginning of the writing phase. Start with the thesis statement and branch out the ideas you want to develop. From those hubs, branch out the supporting facts. One thesis statement as the intro, 3 statements as the body and 3 supporting facts for each statement. Tie it together for a conclusion for a standard 5 paragraph essay.

        2. Now take that mind map (physically written down) and then free write. Don't think, just type what comes to mind. Forget function. Forget sentences. Just let the subconscious bypass our innate desire to edit and talk directly to the keyboard.

        3. Let that sit for a few minutes and go do something else (mind map the next article for example). Come back and then write the first draft. Give it form and structure.

        Add that up as an average ... and it comes to a net of about 5 words per minute.

        Yes, it is slow. But the last time I built a site out like this I did 10 articles this way. Just put them on the default wordpress theme for a mid-competition phrase. Did nothing else to it - not a single bookmark or backlink (just published and relied in the standard WP ping). Checked it the other day in analytics - it has 3500 uniques a month with about 30 quality backlinks in Yahoo. Gotta love it when people find your content and willingly link to it.

        It is possible to use tools such as Dragon Naturally Speaking to speed up the writing process ... I have a copy and have tried so many times to use it. Buy my thought process where I am thinking to myself speaks at about 120 words per minute. My speech center however works at a slower pace and lags behind. I can "pause" a thought while my fingers capture up. But if I try and pause what I am saying to allow my voice to catch up, I lose the train of thought. Oh well ...
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        • Profile picture of the author Britt Malka
          Originally Posted by terrapurus View Post

          I fully agree Britt but there was a hidden calculation in those figures. Firstly, a green writer to a topic can read about the topic but will never understand the topic well enough to write engaging prose at 80 words a minute.

          As a writer, what do you think of -

          1. Creating a mind map for an article either during your research phase or at the beginning of the writing phase. Start with the thesis statement and branch out the ideas you want to develop. From those hubs, branch out the supporting facts. One thesis statement as the intro, 3 statements as the body and 3 supporting facts for each statement. Tie it together for a conclusion for a standard 5 paragraph essay.

          2. Now take that mind map (physically written down) and then free write. Don't think, just type what comes to mind. Forget function. Forget sentences. Just let the subconscious bypass our innate desire to edit and talk directly to the keyboard.

          3. Let that sit for a few minutes and go do something else (mind map the next article for example). Come back and then write the first draft. Give it form and structure.

          Add that up as an average ... and it comes to a net of about 5 words per minute.
          That is most likely true, terrapurus, but I don't write that way, and never have.

          For a short article, whether it's in Danish or English, I find the keywords, I do a mental outline, and then I write.

          For a book, I do a written outline, and that may take some time, yes, but I've written books in as less as three weeks, and which has been published in Denmark and sold in around 5,000 copies.

          So again, you cannot just generalise and say: few words per minute = good articles. many words per minute = bad articles.

          It can be either or, and I say: If you know your topic, and if you know how to write, and if you're inspired, a fast-written article could be much better than a slowly written one, where the author has to wrench out every word.

          And in cases, where the topic is something you have to do research about, yes, then it takes far longer to write the article. And then, of course, you cannot come out with 80 words per minute.
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  • Profile picture of the author good2go4
    I have always tried to get through to my students that they should compete (as writers) on value rather than price, because there will always be those gems of writers who work for very little pay, and others who overcharge and don't deliver value at all.

    I have been writing for ten years and love it - I am also a know-it-all on so many topics that I bore my friends and family - but it serves me well in what I do. But recently I had a need to outsource three of what I thought were short easy topics and I was really disappointed with the work I received. One set was completely unusable, but I really had to think about the other two I had received. Was I biased against them because they didn't write in my style, or were they full of so many mistakes it was quicker to rewrite them than edit them. I rewrote them from scratch simply because I think I am one of those writers who has a very established way of saying things, and I tend to attract clients that want that style in their products.

    But my students will tell you that writing is not easy and writing for clients can actually be quite daunting. After showing my students a few examples of requests I had for projects, a couple of them promptly came back and asked me if there were other ways of making money from writing because the client demands seemed "too hard".

    So while there are cases of writers who overstate their skills; and there will always be writers who are in the game for a quick dollar and soon realize that a decent business actually takes work and discipline; there are some real gems online and I echo the sentiments of MYOB - "pay your writers well", or they will go off and write their own products

    back to work
    Lisa
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
    I think some of the points mentioned are valid, to a degree. However, I know many article writers that have more work than time, and these writers are not churning out $5 articles, but actual articles that are worth reading.

    I should point out that I don't write articles for others, just so you know I don't have a dog in this fight. I used to, and still receive offers of work on a regular basis, but it's not my thing anymore.

    One problem I see in the vast majority of the cheap articles is that they have no personality. If you are an article writer that spends all day everyday typing as fast as you can, not properly researching anything and remaining disconnected from your work, stop. Make a new game plan, start over and this time remember that people will read your articles, possibly hundreds of people, so try to make a difference.

    I remember about a year ago I wrote this article for a client, and in the middle I got completely side tracked and started talking about quantum mechanics, and even told a slightly rude joke. He understandably thought I had gone mad when he received the article, but he put it on his site and it did extremely well for him. After that I was able to charge him twice the price and he happily paid it, but he never understood what made that article work. It was because the reader suddenly realized that what they were reading was actually written by 'someone'. It sounds stupid I know, but if you work on creating articles that bridge that writer-reader gap, suddenly your articles are worth far more than the information they contain.

    One other problem that I see many writers face is the content-writer/sales-copywriter clash. I often see people advertising themselves as both, but the two types of writing are only connected due to the fact they both involve a keyboard. I was no different myself, and constantly thought I could write copy because I can write content, but it just isn't true. Copy and content are very different, and often require exclusive abilities. If you write content then your only job should be to engage the reader, break that internet divide and grab their attention. When writing sales copy you need to motivate people to do one specific task, and even their liking you is not necessarily that important. So stick to what you can do, or expect people to put a low value on your skills.

    Back to the OP in regard to writers fighting for scrap, and I have to say it just isn't true. I do realize there is a race to the bottom going on, with everyone trying to undercut each other, but most serious business people avoid these writers like the plague. Set you standards higher, try and be the best at what you do and people will pay for your time. More important than the extra money, is the fact that if you base your writing business around creating top quality, engaging content, you can reclaim your self respect.

    I think I have taken up more than enough of your time, so I'll get back to work.

    My 2c,
    Colin Palfrey

    P.S. I don't write articles anymore, and I am fully booked for my other writing related services. So no this post is not self promotional before you jump to that conclusion. This is just a subject I know about, and couldn't resist resist trying to prod the SEO writers in the audience into expecting more of themselves.
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  • Profile picture of the author cypherslock
    That's what I love about you Kevin: you're so loquacious.
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by cypherslock View Post

      That's what I love about you Kevin: you're so loquacious.
      Do you mean talkative, babbling, chattering, chatty, fluent, gabby, garrulous, gossipy, jabbering, long-winded, loose-lipped, motormouth, multiloquent, prolix, verbose, voluble, wordy, yacking, colloquial, communicative, eloquent, conversational, familiar, friendly, informal, intimate, spontaneous, talky, candid, demonstrative, effusive, enlightening, expansive, forthcoming, frank, open, outgoing, affable, effervescent, extroverted, free, genial, gregarious, gushy, lavish, liberal, sociable, unconstrained, uninhibited, unreserved, unrestrained - or what? :confused:
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  • Profile picture of the author cypherslock
    Exactly
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  • Profile picture of the author sarahberra
    Good points! I think working for Demand Media has really helped me to improve my writing skills within the last two years. They are picky about passive voice and I learn a lot by tracking changes that the editors make. Writing is a process and the best articles keep the readers attention. DM only pays $15 per article, so I think I might start applying for ghostwriting positions. I still have issues with commas, and some style issues, but I do my best and my work sells.
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    • Profile picture of the author KevinTorrence
      Ah... yes. I love it when a great thread starts getting the Kevin Riley / Hamster treatment. Haven't seen one in a while. haha
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Well I are am greatful for all the bad writters be cause it makes us gooder writters look even betterer. If every body writed as gooderer as me, then my writting wouldn't stand a part from them like a bee can in the dark.








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    • Profile picture of the author Britt Malka
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Well I are am greatful for all the bad writters be cause it makes us gooder writters look even betterer. If every body writed as gooderer as me, then my writting wouldn't stand a part from them like a bee can in the dark.
      This is the second time in two days that I think Allen should make a LOL-button and not just a Thank you-button
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by Britt Malka View Post

        This is the second time in two days that I think Allen should make a LOL-button and not just a Thank you-button
        That sounds like a fun idea! I wonder how many people read that post and didn't realize I was joking around? I may have lost sales!
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          I may have lost sales!
          I don't think so: everyone will appreciate that the nice doggie wrote that post.
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          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            The problem is that those who lack the understanding of what makes for good writing are incapable of judging it, in themselves or others. As a rule, these are folks who also don't read much, if at all.

            Paul
            Paul, you're talking about one of my secret weapons. Whenever I feel like my writing is getting stale, I put down the pen, push the keyboard aside, grab some good fiction and head for the beach.

            When I say "good fiction", I don't mean restricting myself to classics. I'll read the stuff that people buy for more than decorating library shelves, too. Sci-fi, tech adventure like Tom Clancy, mysteries, westerns, whatever.

            Right now, I'm reading "Stranger in a Strange Land" for the umpteenth time - and getting some marketing ideas from it, believe it or not...

            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            However, every time someone posts "need money fast - what can I do" (which will likely happen within a few hours:p) - watch how quickly people jump in to suggest "write articles for money".

            Never mind the spelling and punctuation errors in the post that started the thread - or the total inability to use English phrases competently.

            kay
            Kay, I think the key to making that work is in the distinction Paul made in his first post - articles meant to be read by humans vs. spider food.

            Originally Posted by EvolBaby View Post

            The true test of your writing abilities come from what professionals in the field say of you.

            I'm not talking about your article writing buddies, I'm talking about pros in the field of novels, screenwriting, journalism and more.
            The only writing test I'm really interested in acing, at least in the context of this thread, is the one where the grades can be converted into folding money...

            Can I attract an audience and communicate with them well enough that they happily dig out their wallets and type in those 16 magic digits? Can I deliver something that makes them happy they did, and look forward to another chance to do so? Can I do it so well that they eagerly tell others about it, and recommend a purchase?

            The problem with a lot of professional reviewers is that they tend to become whores, praising the output of those who pay the way. Look at all the crappy movies, and the glowing reviews they get because it's Dreamworks or another major studio. No company ever bought a full page ad facing the review trashing their product...

            Even the honest ones tend to try to earn their own accolades by finding the faults in the work of others, lest their audience think they've sold out.
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            • Profile picture of the author mrdomains
              Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

              Right now, I'm reading "Stranger in a Strange Land" for the umpteenth time - and getting some marketing ideas from it, believe it or not...
              Wow! I though I was the only one who still read Heinlein! Great stuff from the time of the masters. Heinlein, Asimov, Clarke, Jose Farmer, Frank Herbert, Phillip K. Dick, Roger Zelazny, so many more.. RIP

              Just about the only one I can read these days who is not dead is Ian M Banks.
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    Nice suggestion, some of the best outsourced articles are from non-native English speaking countries
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
    You forgot Arthur C Clark. I think reading alot of his work is like standing in the past, looking at the present.

    I do love "Stranger in a Strange Land", and think I have finally read it enough times that I Grok to fullness. A fantastic book that should probably be compulsory reading for any aspiring writer, just because of the way Heinlein draws the reader in.

    Possibly a short quiz concerning the books the prospective writer has read would be a better gauge of their abilities, or at least of their literary intent. For instance, do they intend to move the reader, or to fill a page?

    Admittedly it may be hard to inspire a reader while writing "Genital warts - part 4" but I like to think a tear could still be brought to the eye.

    Cheers,
    Colin Palfrey
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      I'd add crossover writers like Piers Anthony, who can spin stories... Maybe I should make that "craft" stories... about space travel and magic kingdoms with equal ease.

      Spread out over multiple genres, like Tom Clancy, Stephen King, Harold Robbins, etc.

      People who can tell you a story so well that you can take their printed work to the beach and forget about the waves, sand and warm breezes and get caught up in another world...

      Capture even a tiny percentage of that ability in your commercial writing, and you'll never miss another meal in your life. To say nothing of your choices for beaches to get lost on...
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  • I agree.
    I am an English speaking, Platinum level author at Ezinearticles, and I spend tons of time making each article great.

    The result is I constantly get articles picked up by publishers.

    Spend the extra time to do it RIGHT!
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