Are opt-in forms dead? ...Yes, and here's why...

120 replies
I see so many copy cats putting up opt-in forms and begging for their visitors to opt-in to their lists, it's really sad.

That's just like going to a bar, just like every other guy, and begging girls to buy them a drink! You see this all the time, "Can I buy you a drink, can I buy you a drink?!"

Why would you ask someone if you can buy them a drink! It turns girls off, and they'll use and abuse you 95% of the time!

So why are you going to raise the "free line"?

To be honest with you, the bad news is that you can't beat the gurus at "raising the free line." You don't have the credibility, you don't have the clout, you don't have the connections, etc.

Why join em, when you can beat em?

Here's what you SHOULD do instead, ...ready?

You should make your site visitors try to sell you on why they should be on your list. ( your list and what you offer on it should be the opt-in bait )

My list is an exclusive club, why should I let you in?

example: the dating pros go to bars and they NEVER ask if they can buy a girl a drink, instead, the girls buy them drinks!

When someone goes to your website, you should have some content, some great content, a video, a really good article, whatever.

But, it's got to be DIFFERENT and INTRIGUING and make your visitors want more. Take your time on this, don't rush through it like everybody else.

( side note: have you noticed marketers using this in their subject lines, ...don't worry, no opt-in required! How sad is this?! )

Then tell them that your best stuff is in your email series, that is a closed group, "by invitation only." where you "SPILL THE BEANS" and tell them everything they need to know about your niche.

Then instead of an opt-in form, have a form and a question that says, "Why should I let you in to my exclusive e-mail list, which is only for serious people who actually want real results?" (use your own words, be thoughtful)

...we also have a waiting list and if we do choose you, we will send you an e-mail ( or text depending on you system capabilities ) telling you where you can join, if we do not accept you within a few days, you can apply again and we'll revisit your application..."there are only 75 people on our exclusive e-mailing list and we take your answers very seriously when determining acceptance...ONLY IF YOU ARE ONLY BUILDING A LIST OF ONLY 75 PEOPLE, BE HONEST WITH EACH PROMOTION ( again, use your own words, I'm being too literal here in these examples... good copy takes time, you should spend several hours on this, also carefully plan out your questions, which you can also use to determine what they would buy from you)

under the form, you'll have a email only opt in box that says "tell us where to notify you of our decision... ( you are getting their e-mail and they'll be put on a "waiting list" where you can have an autoresponder follow up telling them whether or not they were approved for the "exclusive" list, if they were not approved, they can remain on the regular list and you can give them ways to "earn" their way to your "exclusive list"

I've also been testing out telling them ALL that they were not approved at this time, but to try back, and ANYONE that tries back is accepted!

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW RESPONSIVE MY LEADS FROM THIS PROJECT ARE? IT'S INSANE!

or, you can do it like everybody else and wonder why you have a massive list of tire kickers who only gave you their email address to take you up on your bribe.

My list is full of people who applied for the sole purpose of BEING on my list, what do you think my open rates are? What do you think my conversion rates are? :-)

I started doing this because I was tired of having a list full of people who only gave me their email address to get "free stuff" , doing it this way just builds a list of "tire kickers" who expect the world from you for free, just like girls who you beg to buy drinks for and you have to WASTE TIME trying to turn a tire kicker into a buyer, it SUCKS!

YOU CAN'T MAKE A HOE A HOUSE WIFE AND YOU CAN'T MAKE A TIRE KICKER A BUYER.

No, instead, this new way that I've been doing it has drastically REDUCED the number of leads I get and have drastically IMPROVED my income and EVERYONE on my list signed up TO BE ON MY LIST.

After doing this, I've enjoyed internet marketing much more.

Don't take my word for it, go ahead and test this out and let me know how it turns out for you after a month or so, you'll be glad you did :-)

professionally,

Derek J. Soto

321-961-8732
#dead #forms #optin
  • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
    ...also, if any of you have tested this out, let me know your results...
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  • Profile picture of the author Kan
    I don't build lists Rico, but that's some good stuff.
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      thanks for your reply Kan, I'm glad that you don't build lists, I love that there are a million ways to make a million online, good for you!

      Derek J. Soto
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
    remember that the easier thing is usually the best thing, it's easier physically, but HARDER mentally...
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  • Profile picture of the author GreenMachine
    Thanks for this post... exclusivity is such a great and underused motivator... Neat spin on list generation..
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      green machine, thanks for your reply, the ONLY way to stand out and be a "breath of fresh air" to your prospects is to be different! Later on, I'll tell you guys about a neat trick I've been working that I call "micro sales letters" and these things convert!

      Derek J. Soto
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  • Profile picture of the author VictorBlack
    Yeah, this Negative Close type stuff really depends on your product/service and target market. It also requires just as much finesse as it does panache. I very strongly believe that most people would be better served to stick to the easier and time-tested methods of giving away free gifts for their big list and selling low-priced products to build their buyer's list. It's easier, and most intelligent people, i.e. those with money, prefer being treated like customers and clients as opposed to jumping through hoops.

    This Negative Close type stuff can also get you a list of attentive, responsive, broke people.


    Example: Girls who buy me drinks in a bar have also bought lots of other guys drinks in other bars in the past, and will continue to do so in the future. Or, they are overly passive-aggressive, clingy, desperate, and all-around annoying, not to mention not very great in bed.

    Those rare flowers that I bother to romance, however, tend to be quiet, appreciative, self-controlled and poised, and have not shared drinks with many other men. They have also been the most rewarding relationships in every aspect.

    The standard way is the standard way for a reason.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Having been happily married for almost 30 years now, I'll have to take you guys' word on the dating stuff...

      On the other hand, I think the kind of approach Derek recommends can work in certain niches. In others, the standard approach still works if you do it right.

      What many folks have lost sight of is that the premium to join the list should be a bonus, not the main reason to sign up. It's like the thirteenth doughnut in a baker's dozen. No one in their right mind buys the dozen to get the free one, but it's a nice surprise when you find it.

      The way to "raise the free line" is to increase the quality of your giveaway, not the quantity. Look at Eben Pagan, who pretty much coined the phrase. Even though he gives away a boatload of his best stuff to get you on the list, he has a whole harbor full to sell you. Keep it in proportion...

      One thing is definitely right, whichever approach you take. If you appear desperate, you invite abuse.

      Rather than saying "I'm going to give you tons of neat stuff and then maybe you'll read my little promo here, pretty please?" you say "Here's how you get on my list. In return for jumping through the hoops, I have little bonus for you. It's definitely cool, but wait until you get a load of what I have waiting for you...including some seriously useful stuff, should you choose to buy it."

      Don't lose track of the whole reason for building a list in the first place. And it is not so you have to have your funeral in a sports arena...
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      • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
        JohnMcCabe, thanks for your reply, I totally agree. People need to offer VALUE, however, it's MUST be different because if you look at the trends, people looking to open their own home business doubled this year!

        This means they are going to see a MILLION squeeze pages offering THE WORLD and begging them to join their list.

        When they get to your page and are FIRST given QUALITY CONTENT that makes them want more, then they are required to do something to EARN their way on to your list, you'll be building a list of people who will open your e-mails, which means more eye balls to your offer.

        for those of you who may be new who are reading this, please don't SPAM your list, no, instead tell them stories about your life and then as an "aside" mention a product you made or used that got your a certain result and build in a few cliff hangers like:

        later on I'm going to tell you what I did to triple my opt-ins, but for now, have a great night!
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

          JohnMcCabe, thanks for your reply, I totally agree. People need to offer VALUE, however, it's MUST be different because if you look at the trends, people looking to open their own home business doubled this year!

          This means they are going to see a MILLION squeeze pages offering THE WORLD and begging them to join their list.

          When they get to your page and are FIRST given QUALITY CONTENT that makes them want more, then they are required to do something to EARN their way on to your list, you'll be building a list of people who will open your e-mails, which means more eye balls to your offer.

          for those of you who may be new who are reading this, please don't SPAM your list, no, instead tell them stories about your life and then as an "aside" mention a product you made or used that got your a certain result and build in a few cliff hangers like:

          later on I'm going to tell you what I did to triple my opt-ins, but for now, have a great night!
          First, nice tease. You have me curious...

          Second, nice sig. A man after my own heart - save the ozone, eat a cow...

          Finally, when I read your initial post, I didn't realize you were referring to the IM niches specifically. Indeed, people doing their research will run into dozens of squeeze pages, and some of them will be truly pathetic.

          If you're going to build a marketing list, you can't be afraid to market. Don't get hung up on a few unsubscribes - they're a fact of life. That doesn't mean constantly hitting people over the head with every offer that comes along. But if you do have something of value, something that will truly help them, you owe it to them to make the offer...
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      • Profile picture of the author halmo
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post


        The way to "raise the free line" is to increase the quality of your giveaway, not the quantity.
        Thank you, John, for this comment. I have frequently wondered about the massive quantity of bonuses some sales letters offer. I always thought (and still tend to think) that too many bonuses de-value the actual product. Because: "If the product is so good, then why would you need to include so many bonuses?" ... or: "If you include so many bonuses to entice, the product must be crappy."

        Personally, if I want to buy a product, I want to buy it for the sake of the product, and I rather see 2-3 complementary bonuses, at most, than 16. But then, I kept bumping into the advice of "include many bonuses in your sales letter" -- which reminded me that most buyers are not necessarily like me. So, I have not reconciled this issue in my mind, but I can't help to think that quality sells better than quantity, not to mention long-term customers, and lower refund rates.

        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post


        The way to "raise the free line" is to increase the quality of your giveaway, not the quantity. Look at Eben Pagan, who pretty much coined the phrase. Even though he gives away a boatload of his best stuff to get you on the list, he has a whole harbor full to sell you. Keep it in proportion...
        .
        This is good advice. My question is: How do you communicate this to buyers without giving them the impression that they can just get a boatload of stuff free from you?

        e.g. Someone is on Eben Pagen's sales pages, about to buy a product with lots of bonuses, but has no idea who Eben Pagen is, let alone the fact that Eben has so much more to sell later.

        Wouldn't such an offer give the wrong impression? We (IMers) all know who Eben Pagen is, but I imagine most of his new buyers don't ... And, I am finding this question even more relevant to IMers who don't have a name anywhere near that of Eben's.

        Am I over-complicating it?
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      Victor Black, thanks for your response. The standard way is good when it's done CORRECTLY. However, sadly, too many newbies have ruined it by simply copying it and then spamming the hell out of their lists. And sadly the general way is dying.

      This has caused a shift in how the general IM population approaches opt-ins where they are now viewed as , "Oh, I got to give them my email and then get spammed." If you've done testing, you'll see it's getting harder and harder to get opt-ins and it's starting to spread into other niches as the general internet user gets wiser on to this lead gen tactic.

      furthermore, the abuse of this method has caused people to be conditioned to give their email and opt out or completely ignore your emails, what are your open rates these days? Better than they were two, three years ago?

      This is also true of google's ads which have lost a lot of "eye balls" as people have "learned" and "conditioned" themselves to not even look at the ads to the right.

      This is why I felt like I NEEDED to write this post.
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  • Profile picture of the author HelpfulHannah
    When I read the title of your post I was going to come in both arms swinging but now that I have read your post I can't disagree with you.

    You make a very compelling argument and to me it makes a lot of sense. I can see this definately working in highly competitive niches but for those that have low to no competition probably not necessary and will most likely deter buyers. Plus it is another step you need to take before you jump in the market.

    Hope it helps,
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      HelpfulHannah, thanks for your reply, Yes, you are totally correct! When I wrote this, I was definitely taking about HIGH COMPETITION NICHES, but for those selling "How to teach chickens to dance" ebooks, I'm sure they don't see too many websites begging them to be on their list :-)
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      • Profile picture of the author KevinTorrence
        Dang ... this is the good nuggets I try to mine out of this forum. Even if it's a bit aggressive & maybe not work for all niches/offers... just the idea of being different, even "backwards" is an eye opener.

        Another guy that's opened my eyes lately is Andre something-rather (?) out of Spain. He runs that AutoResponder Madness site. He's got some cool, out of the box kinda ideas like this too. He even sets up little miniature 4-5 page minisite landing pages that give away PDFs & high quality content to weed out tirekickers & have a better quality subscriber optin.

        I'm likin' your ideas here. Cool stuff!
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        • Profile picture of the author wayne60618
          Originally Posted by KevinTorrence View Post

          Dang ... this is the good nuggets I try to mine out of this forum. Even if it's a bit aggressive & maybe not work for all niches/offers... just the idea of being different, even "backwards" is an eye opener.

          Another guy that's opened my eyes lately is Andre something-rather (?) out of Spain. He runs that AutoResponder Madness site. He's got some cool, out of the box kinda ideas like this too. He even sets up little miniature 4-5 page minisite landing pages that give away PDFs & high quality content to weed out tirekickers & have a better quality subscriber optin.

          I'm likin' your ideas here. Cool stuff!
          Andre Chaperone is his name....AutoResponder Madness is really good. His sites really aren't minisites as much as they are multi-page presells. And yes, his approach is to strategically lose badly matched, low value prospects out of the sales process. Please note, if you plan on following this, it helps to be very good at writing copy, and you need to know how to track the progress through the funnel.
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          • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
            wayne60618, yes, I find as long as you write emails, ask yourself a couple questions which should really help copy skills.

            just like chess, knowing what questions to ask yourself will improve your game without really "knowing" chess.

            there are many many questions, but following just these below will drastically improve your copy.

            1./ Can I really say that this email provided value?
            2./ Does this email make me want more of the same?
            3./ Did this email create curiosity or excitement?
            4./ regarding whatever it is you want them to do, does this email make you want to take that action? i.e. click a link, buy a product, do something else...
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            • Profile picture of the author J Bold
              Originally Posted by Paul Barrs View Post


              How do I determine if he's a worthwhile client? I ask him to pay for lunch... and then pay me for my time as he feels is worthwhile. If the offer is $50 for the 2 - 3 hrs that I'll spend with him... OK, but I won't be calling him back. If it's $500 I'll be asking him why? Somewhere in the middle is the balance.

              Remind me not to ask you for personal coaching so I don't have to play some sort of guessing game.

              Oh, and remind me not to go out to lunch with you either, ha ha.





              Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

              wayne60618, yes, I find as long as you write emails, ask yourself a couple questions which should really help copy skills.
              I am not replying to this post, just to all your posts in general.

              First, I invite you to figure out how to use the multiquote button, then you don't have to respond to each individual post with your own individual post which leads you to post several times in a row, just fyi.

              Also, I think your approach can work but just like list building of any kind, you have to do it right. If you don't, it's not going to work. If you do list building what you seem to be calling the normal way without any creativity or thought, it's not going to work.

              And, of course, list building is not dead, you just said that to be fake controversial so people would click on this topic as you are promoting list building in your first post, just promoting the way you do it.

              Well done? I guess. I suppose I clicked on it just the same, although thinking "What nonsense reason will it be this time for list building to be dead?" In the end, though, what you're talking about is not a bad idea. It's like saying to build a buyer's list rather than just a list full of people who will never give you money for any reason. Take care.
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        • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
          Kevintorrence, thanks for your reply. You know they say that the definition of insanity is doing the same things and expecting the same results. That is why we test this stuff out to see which "theory" actually pans out.

          Sometimes I get frustrated because an idea I was SURE would work, doesn't! Then sometimes I try an idea reluctantly and it WORKS!

          So to you and everyone else reading this, if you have an idea, just NIKE IT, ( just do it ) because if you wait until someone else tells you what to do, you're just a sheep, like everyone else. But if you are not afraid to act on your "crazy" ideas, you will be taking more action, and be more successful.

          I see so many people have ideas but they are too afraid to act on them because a "guru" hasn't "OK'ed" it! FORGET THAT, BE YOUR OWN GURU, period.

          When I don't know what to do, what I like to do is go to my white board and start teaching myself internet marketing.

          I love to teach myself the stuff I wish I knew, and you'll be surprised to find that I often walk away from these self sessions like, dag! where did that come from?

          anyway, rock on...

          Derek J. Soto
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
    Paul Barrs, thanks for your reply. I'll actually probably test that idea in some form or another as I use wordpress as well, I love to hear that you use it, it's just a no brainer for SEO and all I want for Christmas are really cool wordpress plugins :-)

    Just for you and all my other fellow wordpress users, a MANDATORY plugin is pubsubhubbub, seriously can get your new content ranked mega fast.

    Derek J. Soto
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
    JohnMcCabe, well said!
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
    Banned
    In order for this to work, the content must be unbelievable. So honestly, this wouldn't work for 99.99% of people out there. Most people aren't capable of delivering great content or what they think is great, isn't all that great.
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      dave rodman, thanks for your reply. My numbers are working for me, but if you've tested it in 99% of niches, you must be a very busy man and I applaud you sir!

      Derek J. Soto
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      • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
        Banned
        Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

        dave rodman, thanks for your reply. My numbers are working for me, but if you've tested it in 99% of niches, you must be a very busy man and I applaud you sir!

        Derek J. Soto
        Well, I don't need to test it. Just look at the WF. How many people could do what you're suggesting and have them be better off. Not many....because they aren't knowledgeable enough. So really the lesson is that you need to be better at what you do.

        But anyways...this strategy was tried with products for the last couples years. You're not buying the product, you're applying to buy the product. Come on! My money is green, you sell a product, and you know you're going to take the money so cut the crap. There are people that do this, but only when it actually makes sense (limited coaching spots or something).
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Deegan
    It's a cool strategy that definitely works for the right kind of person in the right niche. 2 people I know who use and teach this strategy are the the silent Jedi's Brent Hall & his student Andre Chapreon. If your game is tight you will get much better conversions with this approach. It's interesting because Brent uses & teaches this type of strategy to make lots of money with very little traffic. Value & conversion focus for the win!
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  • Profile picture of the author KevinTorrence
    Dave Rodman -

    I believe what you're saying 100%. I sign up to lists with bad writing all the time. There's just no "umph" there to keep me interested.

    I know my content & emails suck too... and this is something I'm trying to fix.

    You can "just tell" when someone has the ability to write great content with a fresh perspective & "a-ha" type info ... it just flows ... it's revealing ... and I find it very persuasive.
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
    redice lander, thank you for your reply, your comments were very thoughtful.

    Derek J. Soto
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    • Profile picture of the author J Bold
      Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

      redice lander, thank you for your reply, your comments were very thoughtful.

      Derek J. Soto
      Multiquote button man, muliquote! No need to make 5 posts in a row in your own thread. Just use the multiquote button. Hit multiquote on each post to which you want to reply and then hit "post reply" at the bottom of the thread and respond to all in the same post.

      Pet peeve, sorry.

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      • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
        Zeuss66, thank you for your reply, The way everyone is doing it works. The old way is how I built up my business to thousands a month, turning tire kickers into buyers.

        I get bored Zeuss66, and I like to switch things up. In my tests, I found that it was just less stressful for me to filter out the tire kickers and that is why I made the post, to share my findings.

        It's not really about the niche as I've seen a lot of people mention, it's the mindset of the marketer. The universe is between your ears and people will follow you if you have a strong frame.

        If my frame is strong enough, I can do what "the rich jerk" does and call ALL of my subscribers "Loser" and make millions...

        I want EVERYONE reading this right now to understand, YOUR FRAME IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR METHOD.

        To pull from the dating niche again, if you have a strong frame, you can go up to a girl and say, let me get a kiss and she'll do it, I only know this because I tried it, it's crazy.
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      • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
        redice lander, I appreciate that it's a pet peeve, but a lot of people like that I respond to them personally and don't just reply to everyone with a generic response. I'm sure it won't hurt to scroll just a few inches more and I promise to continue to give you the best content I can. Your replies are always welcome.

        Derek J. Soto
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
    daniel deegan, thanks for your reply. Yes, so many people focus too much on traffic and not enough on conversion of that traffic.

    better conversion = easier work.

    If people spent twice as much time on conversion as they do on traffic, they will find internet marketing to be so much easier.

    Derek J. Soto
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
    kevintorrence, I agree with you, conversion takes finesse and that's what these "pros" need to be teaching the new guys.

    What makes it tough is that the pros know that the newbies eat up shiny new traffic getting products and "one click" "no work" software.

    If you are a newbie, I implore you! Forget the new shiny traffic products, 1 click "set it and forget it" doesn't exist!

    Focus on conversion, if your conversion is strong, you won't need that much traffic as kevintorrence points out and he is 100% right.
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
    One thing that helped me a lot was to think "If I were a visitor for the first time to my page, what would I want to see?" helped tons.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    So many ways to skin this cat. The OP lays out just one way, and yeah, it's probably killer in some niches. It's like the marketer who comes up with a good USP - they'll convert higher with the right offer and target audience. I like the idea of setting yourself apart from all the competition.

    Having said that, the traditional way still works a treat. And trust me, it's a myth that tire kickers will never become buyers. Flat out untrue. Do you have to work harder to get them into the buyer column? Yep. But there's numbers in your favor, too. Like I said, many ways to skin that cat.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author Vanessa Reece
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      And trust me, it's a myth that tire kickers will never become buyers. Flat out untrue.

      John
      And so is the myth that 'hoes can't make housewives' as quoted by the OP :p

      But onto the topic - this has worked for one of my client's who's in a niche where being in the 'click' and in the 'know' are paramount for visitors in that niche.

      Okay we weren't asking why they should join but simply saying, 'you're missing out if you don't join - THIS IS EXCLUSIVE'...since we switched up the opt-in copy and the way it's promoted the sign-ups have been insane.
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  • Profile picture of the author randoggle
    I see what you are saying. I would never go to a bar throwing money around but in the market place im not sure. Great thread
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      randoggle, thank you for your reply, You are totally right, if you come across as desperate for the opt-in or desperate for the sale, you shoot yourself in the foot and make it ten times harder. If you act like you can take it or leave it, people fight to get what you have, it's the law of attraction baby!

      Derek J. Soto
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      dave rodman, you are the one who decides that it's appropriate. Yes, many use it for limited coaching or something that you define as appropriate, however, you can choose to do whatever you want, this is your business.

      But I want to challenge you, after all, who created a law that says you can only use this for limited coaching or something? I challenge you to try your own ideas, even if it goes against what you think you know.

      Hundreds of years ago, EVERYONE knew that the world was flat, this was common knowledge, just like EVERYONE knows that you ONLY use application format when doing limited coaching.

      Until one man had this "crazy" idea and went against what all the naysayers said and challenged this limitation and he was right!

      I support whatever you do and if you prefer a different method to what I've proposed, I'm all for it, and I wish you the best in all you do. Like what one of you guys posted, there are a million ways to skin a cat.

      Derek J. Soto
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    Funny thing about tire kickers... just like the rest of us, their circumstances/wants/needs/goals change. I'd rather have them on my list and getting my offers when their perspective switches from "no thanks" to "yes, please." But I feel ya, ricocrownmedia. I do. Your way works too. That's one of the beautiful things about IM... so many ways work if you just persist.
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
    ok, Zeus66, let's look at this example:

    you've two companies: company A cold calls and WASTES a lot of time with tire kickers,

    company B takes calls, which mean they only spend their time marketing to people who are ALREADY pretty interested.

    Each group REQUIRES A DIFFERENT type of marketing.

    It's TOTALLY COOL for people to market to the first group and most do.

    I PREFER to market and spend my time with HIGHER QUALIFIED, BETTER SCREENED prospects.

    even though was replying to your post, I know you know this, I'm really talking to everyone here as I've tried this muliquote feature that I've been begged to use.
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    • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
      Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

      ok, Zeus66, let's look at this example:

      you've two companies: company A cold calls and WASTES a lot of time with tire kickers,

      company B takes calls, which mean they only spend their time marketing to people who are ALREADY pretty interested.

      Each group REQUIRES A DIFFERENT type of marketing.
      That's absolutely true if you're doing calls. Those are done one at a time. With an email list, you send one email one time and everyone on the list gets it. Yes, there is a bit more cost for the larger list (depending on the service you use), but it's incidental, especially if you know what you're doing.

      I think if you go where your target market hangs out (like this forum if your niche is IM or MMO), you're already doing what you spell out as company B in your example. And in that case, I want both a prospects list (tire kickers) and a buyers list. Smart marketers have both. If you're good at persuasion, you will see the buyers list grow as more and more of the prospects move from that list to your buyers list.

      Still, I want to repeat that there's absolutely nothing wrong with what you've said here in this thread. To each his own - and I'm the first to admit that depending on your business model and sales funnel, your way may often prove to be the more effective and productive. It's a good method to consider.

      John
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      • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
        zeus66, thanks for your reply, and your comments are always welcome and they provide real value.

        Derek J. Soto




        redice lander, you're very helpful and I'll go ahead and try that out and your comments are always welcome as always.
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        • Profile picture of the author guruslasher
          "YOU CAN'T MAKE A HOE INTO A HOUSEWIFE AND YOU CAN'T MAKE A TIRE-KICKER A BUYER!"

          True. But you can turn a hoe into a garden-tool (where she belongs) and a tire-kicker into a believer again by using tried and true marketing principles and good ol' common sense. :O
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    • Profile picture of the author J Bold
      Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

      redice lander, I appreciate that it's a pet peeve, but a lot of people like that I respond to them personally and don't just reply to everyone with a generic response. I'm sure it won't hurt to scroll just a few inches more and I promise to continue to give you the best content I can. Your replies are always welcome.

      Derek J. Soto

      It's simple forum usage etiquette. This is the multiquote function. I am not replying to each post with a generic response, I am responding to each individually in the same post. Get it?


      Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

      Zeuss66, thank you for your reply, The way everyone is doing it works. The old way is how I built up my business to thousands a month, turning tire kickers into buyers.

      I get bored Zeuss66, and I like to switch things up. In my tests, I found that it was just less stressful for me to filter out the tire kickers and that is why I made the post, to share my findings.

      It's not really about the niche as I've seen a lot of people mention, it's the mindset of the marketer. The universe is between your ears and people will follow you if you have a strong frame.

      If my frame is strong enough, I can do what "the rich jerk" does and call ALL of my subscribers "Loser" and make millions...

      I want EVERYONE reading this right now to understand, YOUR FRAME IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR METHOD.

      To pull from the dating niche again, if you have a strong frame, you can go up to a girl and say, let me get a kiss and she'll do it, I only know this because I tried it, it's crazy.
      Here I am responding to this post individually, using the multiquote function.



      Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

      randoggle, thank you for your reply, You are totally right, if you come across as desperate for the opt-in or desperate for the sale, you shoot yourself in the foot and make it ten times harder. If you act like you can take it or leave it, people fight to get what you have, it's the law of attraction baby!

      Derek J. Soto

      Again, multiquote function, responding to this post individually. It just so happend they are all your posts, but I could respond to yours and anyone else's post using the multiquote function.

      Understand, now? You can respond to everyone individually but in the same post using the multiquote function. Makes for a cleaner thread for everyone so instead of posting multiple times in a row, you can post just once, but to everyone individually.

      Click "multiquote" for each post you want to respond to, then "post reply" at the bottom of the thread and you can see how easy it is to use. That's exactly what I was telling you before, you just weren't hearing what I was saying.

      Ok, this has nothing to do with making money online, so sorry. Just a better way to respond to posts in the forum if you want to respond to many posts at the same time before others post again, is all.

      That's it, I won't bother you again about this.
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    Sorry man, just being anal.

    But anyway, I agree with Zeus66, I would say go with a free list and build that in to a buyers list and constantly grow both lists. That creates a good double whammy.

    Some are not going to be create a buyer's list alone, fast enough, but if they could build a freebie list and make some of them in to buyers that works, too.

    Some of the best success I've had is with freebie lists and creating some of them in to buyers. Works better, numbers wise, than just directly promoting my sales page almost all of the time. The most sales I get numbers wise come from a freebie list! And then when I have a buyers list, I of course direct them to more of my products.
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      My post does not say building a buyers list. It's building a filtered list. The old way is fine, I use both ways. I get less hassles with the method I've posted today, hope this clears it up a bit as I don't want people to think I'm talking about a buyers list.

      Derek J. Soto
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      • Profile picture of the author J Bold
        Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

        My post does not say building a buyers list. It's building a filtered list. The old way is fine, I use both ways. I get less hassles with the method I've posted today, hope this clears it up a bit as I don't want people to think I'm talking about a buyers list.

        Derek J. Soto
        I used the wrong word.

        It's not the same as building a buyer's list, i.e. only people who have bought from you. Yes, it's a filtered list. But I think, in the end, the list is quite similar as your filtered list will be people who are 10x+ more likely to buy from you, so in essence a buyers list, but yeah not technically the way we usually use this term. That's what I was meaning.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andrea Wilson
    Oh Rico, this is smart. It surely eliminates the freebie seekers but decreases the opt-ins as well. Well thats what we everyone do, work smarter and not harder.

    Andrea
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      andrea wilson, thanks for your reply, that is why I admire Tim Ferris so much and his four hour work week, your comments are welcome anytime.

      Derek J. Soto
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
    Halmo, he actually doesn't give a boatload of free stuff, how he raised his millions was with a "sandwich page" where on the squeeze page, he offered how to do "one thing" that he knew his audience wanted, which was "how to know when to kiss a girl."

    then on the very next page, he gave them a few paragraphs on how to do this, then on the next page was a sales letter in disguise that starts off by giving more value and creating "aha" moments in his prospects mind.

    The whole reason this works so well is that he offers them value WITHOUT letting them escape his sales funnel.

    Most people send people away to "check their email and download their free whatever"

    sending away people that would potentially buy now.

    then he makes the offer so low barrier that it's pretty much a no brainer.

    I've gone through the whole process and bought every one of his programs.

    After you buy the initial $19 dollar ebook set, he upsells you on around 7 other programs each around 3 payments of 69.95 each or so and they are all, "get it free now and we'll bill you later."

    Now it's easy to see how he made such a killing.

    Derek J. Soto
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    • Profile picture of the author halmo
      Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

      Halmo, he actually doesn't give a boatload of free stuff, how he raised his millions was with a "sandwich page" where on the squeeze page, he offered how to do "one thing" that he knew his audience wanted, which was "how to know when to kiss a girl."

      then on the very next page, he gave them a few paragraphs on how to do this, then on the next page was a sales letter in disguise that starts off by giving more value and creating "aha" moments in his prospects mind.

      The whole reason this works so well is that he offers them value WITHOUT letting them escape his sales funnel.

      Most people send people away to "check their email and download their free whatever"

      sending away people that would potentially buy now.

      then he makes the offer so low barrier that it's pretty much a no brainer.

      I've gone through the whole process and bought every one of his programs.

      After you buy the initial $19 dollar ebook set, he upsells you on around 7 other programs each around 3 payments of 69.95 each or so and they are all, "get it free now and we'll bill you later."

      Now it's easy to see how he made such a killing.

      Derek J. Soto
      Hey, Derek. I didn't know that he made his fortune with his "sandwich page" method. However, he is a big advocate of giving away lots of free stuff -- as John mentioned it too, he is the "inventor" of "moving the free line." He even has a video about it.

      I am not arguing your point. The "sandwich" method is truly a great method. I am just trying to sort out this "give as much free stuff away as you can" advice in my mind.

      BTW, great post (your original post), and great thread. I can see that working well for someone who has high quality and massive amount of content, and already has a name in certain niches ... and, maybe in addition to traditional opt-ins (i.e. traditional opt-ins for more basic content, and the invitation-only opt-in for the "elite" content for "elite" people. (Don't misunderstand my use of "elite people" here.))

      Great discussion on this thread all around.
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      • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
        Halmo, thanks for your reply, I agree with him on the free line thing too, I just know he didn't give away too much stuff for the dating niche, although he does give away 3 or four videos in some of his IM Stuff, they are really high quality videos and he also gives downloadable PDF's to go with this stuff, like worksheets, I think that is what he was talking about, but I'm sure he can clarify that.

        That is, I believe, one of the reasons that Kajabi actually built in the feature to attach downloads to your presell videos.

        have a great night!

        Derek J. Soto
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        • Profile picture of the author halmo
          Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

          Halmo, thanks for your reply, I agree with him on the free line thing too, I just know he didn't give away too much stuff for the dating niche, although he does give away 3 or four videos in some of his IM Stuff, they are really high quality videos and he also gives downloadable PDF's to go with this stuff, like worksheets, I think that is what he was talking about, but I'm sure he can clarify that.

          That is, I believe, one of the reasons that Kajabi actually built in the feature to attach downloads to your presell videos.

          have a great night!

          Derek J. Soto
          Thanks, Derek, you too.

          I am just trying to sort out where that "free line": might be. I know there is no fine line, but there is approximate line for each marketer, I think. Maybe it differs by niches too. I think I, personally, am on the more conservative side regarding the quantity of bonuses, but I have to keep in mind that I don't necessarily represent most buyers in this respect. So, I appreciate your comments, and I am always happy to read other people's comments too. They all will help me settle this issue for myself.
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

          Halmo, thanks for your reply, I agree with him on the free line thing too, I just know he didn't give away too much stuff for the dating niche, although he does give away 3 or four videos in some of his IM Stuff, they are really high quality videos and he also gives downloadable PDF's to go with this stuff, like worksheets, I think that is what he was talking about, but I'm sure he can clarify that.

          That is, I believe, one of the reasons that Kajabi actually built in the feature to attach downloads to your presell videos.

          have a great night!

          Derek J. Soto
          Derek, when I mentioned Pagan, I was indeed talking about his IM products, as opposed to "David DeAngelo" and the dating stuff.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Am I the ONLY one who sees a major reg flag with the OP's strategy.

      Let's see..."Exclusive Ciub."

      Check.

      Only 75 will be allowed in.

      Hmmmm....

      So you're only going to build a list of 75 people?

      Somehow I seriously doubt that and thus, this isn't just false advertising
      but flat out lying.

      Again, am I the only one who caught this?
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    • Profile picture of the author PhoebeSmellyCat
      Just a little input from someone on the "other side" of IM.

      I'm a newbie and when I see those opt-in forms with "Get Your Free Report on How to Be a Millionaire by Tomorrow", I'm filling them out left and right.

      What does that mean?

      It means I get bombarded with desperate emails from those marketers, some with even the same headlines.

      It also means that I have a crapload of free ebooks and reports that I would never read.

      Most of all, it means that these emails and all this begging starts to get annoying and I make a folder in my email for "Desperate Marketers" and shove all those in there.

      The only ebooks I now read are the ones I paid for.

      AND if I thought the book was excellent, I would seek out the author and get on his/her mailing list, as I would value their opinions.

      To me, the only really good free things (in IM) are some of the reports in the War Room.

      JMO
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    • Profile picture of the author Lemy Yusento
      Derek,

      It's a very good stuff you share. Really knocking on my perception about list building.

      Ding Dong!! :rolleyes:

      Good Job!

      -Lemy
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      • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
        ( I promise to everyone that I'll learn how to use the mulipost soon enough! )

        Lemy Yusento, thanks for your reply, I'm glad it could help, what I love is that one nugget can spark a complete change in your business, good stuff.

        Derek J. Soto
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        • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
          Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

          ( I promise to everyone that I'll learn how to use the mulipost soon enough! )
          Please do. The biggest advantage is the quote and multiquote give a link back to the post that you're replying to or commenting on so your response can be read in context.

          It's really not that hard, a smart guy like yourself should be able to figure it out
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    • Profile picture of the author makingiants
      Wow Rico,
      You're really shocking the show with this novel way
      of approaching things!

      The key is to be a bit diferent and a bit more compelling,
      so this is something I've certainly gotta try!

      Keep coming with the originality, man.
      Happy holidays, all!

      Vince aka makingiants
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    • Profile picture of the author RogerAderholdt
      Hey Rico,

      Great Post. I rather have a list of 100 people who TAKE ACTION when presented with clear facts than to have a list of 100,000 people who do nothing.

      Been seeing these ad's online - contact my 14,000 tweeter followers for $5.00 or my 5,000 friends on Facebook... but the end result is always the same ZERO Response.

      It's always a good idea to attract people who think like you do... it takes effort and work to make money on-line.
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    • Profile picture of the author morganb
      Had a brilliant epifany while reading this post - Excellent stuff and thanks for sharing! I am so (so, so) tired of tire kickers and a list full of unresponsive people...

      m b
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  • Profile picture of the author Eddyzro
    This is really a different way of seeing things.You are right! Doing this you will have only quality subscribers
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  • Profile picture of the author indexphp
    Nice twist on the exclusive club (better quality list), but to say that opt-in email marketing is dead is just plain wrong. It depends on the market. If it's a product they need NOW, then you may want to just use a lander. Else, get them on a list and prime the pumps before you make the offer.

    I think you are basing your opinion by observing people who don't know what they are doing
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by halmo View Post

      Thank you, John, for this comment. I have frequently wondered about the massive quantity of bonuses some sales letters offer. I always thought (and still tend to think) that too many bonuses de-value the actual product. Because: "If the product is so good, then why would you need to include so many bonuses?" ... or: "If you include so many bonuses to entice, the product must be crappy."

      Personally, if I want to buy a product, I want to buy it for the sake of the product, and I rather see 2-3 complementary bonuses, at most, than 16. But then, I kept bumping into the advice of "include many bonuses in your sales letter" -- which reminded me that most buyers are not necessarily like me. So, I have not reconciled this issue in my mind, but I can't help to think that quality sells better than quantity, not to mention long-term customers, and lower refund rates.
      Halmo, Pagan's idea of 'moving the free line' really didn't apply to bonuses. He was applying the idea to the pre-launch selling many marketers were doing, especially with the high dollar products.

      Instead of giving away a half-assed ebook or a crappy sales video disguised as content, he gave away solid information, some of his best stuff (according to him).

      And he flat out told you that while the stuff he was giving away was his 'A' material, it was only a small fraction of what you'd get if you bought a ticket for the whole ride.

      Ken McCarthy does a great job with this for his System Seminar. He actually does 60 minute calls with each of his faculty members. There's the usual amount of selling done, but each call in the free series does provide some useful information in the faculty members specialty.

      Originally Posted by halmo View Post

      This is good advice. My question is: How do you communicate this to buyers without giving them the impression that they can just get a boatload of stuff free from you?

      e.g. Someone is on Eben Pagen's sales pages, about to buy a product with lots of bonuses, but has no idea who Eben Pagen is, let alone the fact that Eben has so much more to sell later.

      Wouldn't such an offer give the wrong impression? We (IMers) all know who Eben Pagen is, but I imagine most of his new buyers don't ... And, I am finding this question even more relevant to IMers who don't have a name anywhere near that of Eben's.

      Am I over-complicating it?
      Not over-complicating, just looking in the wrong place. The free line is what happens before you make the actual sales offer.

      The idea is to provide such solid value before you even make the pitch that prospects think to themselves "if the free stuff is this good, the paid stuff must be awesome."

      You do have a point about the bonuses though. A $47 ebook with "over $10,000 worth of bonuses" is insulting to the intelligence, especially when one of those bonuses is a five year old PDF of "Scientific Advertising" (valued at $97)...

      On the other hand, a list of relevant bonuses that actually add value to the original product can add some serious 'thud' to the offer. But that's a topic for another thread...
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      • Profile picture of the author halmo
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        Halmo, Pagan's idea of 'moving the free line' really didn't apply to bonuses. He was applying the idea to the pre-launch selling many marketers were doing, especially with the high dollar products.

        Instead of giving away a half-assed ebook or a crappy sales video disguised as content, he gave away solid information, some of his best stuff (according to him).
        Thank you, John, for clarifying it.

        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        And he flat out told you that while the stuff he was giving away was his 'A' material, it was only a small fraction of what you'd get if you bought a ticket for the whole ride.
        Yes, I find this important that he actually told people -- and it answers one of my questions.

        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        The idea is to provide such solid value before you even make the pitch that prospects think to themselves "if the free stuff is this good, the paid stuff must be awesome."
        Yes, agree. Quality means just about everything. Educating a buyer to see the value, and realize that he couldn't get the yet unseen value anywhere else is the way to gain good, loyal customers.

        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        You do have a point about the bonuses though. A $47 ebook with "over $10,000 worth of bonuses" is insulting to the intelligence, especially when one of those bonuses is a five year old PDF of "Scientific Advertising" (valued at $97)...

        On the other hand, a list of relevant bonuses that actually add value to the original product can add some serious 'thud' to the offer. But that's a topic for another thread...
        Agree. Thanks for responding to this bit of a detour topic on this thread, And, lots of comments have been written on the original post since I have viewed this thread last night. Good read.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Okay...now that I'm done raking the OP over the coals, maybe I can add
          something constructive to this thread while I listen to my Jellyfish CD.

          Remember them?

          Anyway, if I'm understanding the basic premise of the OP, it's that you have
          to go above and beyond to get people to opt into your list because there
          is so much info out there.

          In other words...

          "Why should I give you my email address when there is so much stuff out
          there that I can get without having to give my email address? What do YOU
          have that's worth opting in for?"

          Is that pretty much what this all boils down to?

          Okay, first of all, one thing you need to understand is that not all opt
          in prospects are created equally. How discriminating the potential opt in is
          going to be depends on several factors including:

          The niche
          The current knowledge of the prospect
          How many lists they're already opted into
          Their comfort level with giving access to their personal info

          I could keep going but I think you get the point. What works for one niche
          and one type of prospect may not work for another.

          Try getting opt ins for WOW with all the stuff freely available.

          You practically have to offer to pay 6 months of their game costs.

          Conversely, Jane "I'm Sick As A Dog" Doe who is desperately looking for
          information on a debilitating disease isn't going to think twice about
          opting into a page that says, "Discover A Natural Cure For <disease>".

          Provided her comfort level with giving personal info is good, this should be
          an easy opt in.

          But again, it all depends on how much is already out there, how many lists
          she's already on and how much she already knows.

          This is why (beyond the scope of this thread) trying to tackle a niche
          that is dominated by people spending millions of dollars a year on ads
          is suicide. You'd have better success playing the lottery if you're on a $100
          a month budget.

          Having said all this, given that everything else is equal and that there is
          no real difference between one opt in page and another, then the way to
          get YOUR share of the market is similar to the way you get your share
          of the market as an affiliate marketer...go above and beyond what most
          affiliates will do...without lying.

          And therein lies the crux of this whole problem.

          See, ultimately this comes down to moving the free line.

          But...and again, this depends on the niche...there is only so far you can
          move that line before you're giving away the very thing you're trying to
          sell.

          Solution?

          Do what Brad Callen did, because I think this is one of the best examples.

          He gave away a report on exactly how to do SEO...something many people
          would pay for. The report was excellent. It really nailed the process. I
          know...I have it.

          But what did he do?

          At the end, he essentially said, "Well, now you know how to do SEO. You
          can also see how time consuming it can be. But...with my..."

          And then he pitched his automated SEO tool.

          You got the info for free and paid for the tool.

          That...IMO...is your best marketing model if you're going to give away
          info and want to give away more than the next guy in order to get that
          opt in.

          But not everybody has access to software. All they have to sell is info.

          So then what?

          Again, depends on the niche.

          I mean, let's face it...if you're selling a cure for acne that is essentially...

          "Eat 3 apples a day for 3 days and nothing else and your acne will go
          away"...well hell, there's not a lot of info you can give away for free.

          Causes of acne
          Traditional cures

          That's about it.

          You're really stuck for stuff to give away.

          With other niches, such as how to make money online, there is tons of
          info you can give away and STILL have tons to sell.

          I do it every single day.

          Point is, you can't get 10 pounds of ham out of a 2 pound bag. You have
          to look at the niche you're in and how much there is to give.

          The well only goes so deep.

          So while in theory what the OP is saying is sound (minus the lying to get
          opt ins) it doesn't always work.

          A better way to get opt ins, if you really want to qualify your list, is to
          actually make the opt in a paid one. Charge a small fee for the report, even
          if it's just $1.

          This will separate the people who will probably waste your time (again
          not always) from those who have a better chance of being serious buyers.

          There is no one size fits all to list building. That's why you have to
          continuously test things in your niche.

          Because what works for cancer cures is most certainly NOT going to work
          for World Of Warcraft.
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          • Profile picture of the author Oxbloom
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            A better way to get opt ins, if you really want to qualify your list, is to
            actually make the opt in a paid one. Charge a small fee for the report, even
            if it's just $1.

            This will separate the people who will probably waste your time (again
            not always) from those who have a better chance of being serious buyers.
            Great minds, and all that.
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            • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
              Steve, let me clarify to to everyone that I made a mistake on the example I gave, I don't lie on my own sites and I want people to be CLEAR that I DO NOT ADVOCATE LYING. I've since corrected my post, so let's move past that.

              Then, I agree with you about the paid opt ins. Good.

              However, I play WOW and if someone had a list that they said only people who can prove that they are at a high level, and the guy running this list is a high level player and says, "In this list, I give you all my best strategies that I do for free, all you gotta do is send me proof that you are a high level player or ( whatever qualifier he wants ) and you're in, I would be HIGHLY motivated to get on this EXCLUSIVE list and I would probably read EVERY email he sends out. Furthermore, as he's sending out his best quality content for free on this list and establishes that he is pretty much "the man" at WOW, if he says to buy something, I'll be really inclined to do so. Also, if he says, "Hey, I just created a document that only 4 people have seen ( ONLY IF THIS IS TRUE ) and I'll give you access to it for $97 and it contains the secrets of one of the world's top players, I'd be very inclined to buy it. When someone of high credibility that you are following recommends something, it's very motivating to take the action, this is why Frank Kern is so successful.

              Food for thought for the masses.

              Derek J. Soto
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
    Since I had a hard time with the multiquote feature, I'm just going to improvise instead of spending a half an hour trying to figure it out...

    Eddyzro, thanks for your reply: I totally agree, it's ALWAYS funner to work with people who actually want your emails and products as opposed to just CRAMMING as many people as you can on your list and then BEGGING, TRICKING, FINESSING, etc. then into buying something, NO THANK YOU TO THAT! Even though it's just e-mail, it's TIME that people don't seem to understand that is your MOST VALUABLE COMMODITY and it should be spent writing e-mails to people who at least are ALREADY warm.

    indexphp, thanks for your reply: you misunderstood the headline and my post, it is a warning. People have taken the classic way and have ruined it in the minds of the majority of people, that is why it's getting harder and harder to get opt-ins. People are getting wise to the old opt in way.

    What I am saying is to be DIFFERENT and EXCLUSIVE using basic psychology as people want what they "can't have"

    sappacis13, was my headline really a trick for people to open my thread? do you feel tricked? You opened it didn't you? In the NOISE of the internet, knowing how to write headlines that get opened and then deliver great content is the example that I am setting. Was I promoting anything, go ahead and take a look at my "signature line" and tell me what I'm promoting there. Go ahead, take a look, my girl told me this joke, it's funny.


    JohnMcCabe, thanks for your reply, I understand, you're a pretty knowledgeable dude and your comments are always welcome.

    Steven Wagenheim, thanks for your reply, REALLY? Do you honestly think that I ONLY allow 70 people on my list?

    Have you EVER HEARD of SCARCITY?

    I guess 99% OF ALL COMPANIES ARE LYING when they say, "we're only letting ten people in." Do you honestly think they are only going to let ten people in?

    Grow up and stop looking for ways to criticize and look at the marketing,if you don't like this game, you know where the door is.
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    • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
      Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post


      Steven Wagenheim, thanks for your reply, REALLY? Do you honestly think that I ONLY allow 70 people on my list?

      Have you EVER HEARD of SCARCITY?

      I guess 99% OF ALL COMPANIES ARE LYING when they say, "we're only letting ten people in." Do you honestly think they are only going to let ten people in?

      Grow up and stop looking for ways to criticize and look at the marketing,if you don't like this game, you know where the door is.
      Easy there, cowboy. Look at how long you've been here and how long Steven's been here. Look at his post count and hit Thanks count, then at yours. He's one of the most respected Warriors here, and well, he did just out you. You basically confirmed what he suspected by the above response. You're admitting that you are lying when you say you'll only let 75 in. There's scarcity, which is a legitimate sales tactic when it's HONEST... then there's false scarcity, which is how clever people rationalize lying. It's a desperation tactic. And now we know you use it.

      So, instead of telling a guy like Steven that he knows where the door is, which is hilarious given his level of respect here vs. you as essentially a nobody at this forum, you might consider that his point has validity. I'm sure you'll dismiss his point, though. That seems to be how you roll. Fair enough, but do understand that to the majority of Warriors who read this thread, he just exposed you as someone who has no problem at all lying to prospects with false scarcity. Good luck with that.

      Oh, and if you don't like THIS game, well... you know the rest.

      Good job, Steven!
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      • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
        Zeus66, again, you are not here adding value, you are a drama queen and you ONLY jump in when it's about drama. Your "respected" buddy did not contribute to the post, he is being self righteous. I guess, what are we talking about here ethics, religion, politics? Every one of the well respected marketers in the IM niche use scarcity that your buddy would consider as lying. I guess we are ALL going to hell, well, of course, except for you and steve. Get off your high horse and instead of trolling this site looking for fights, go, write some good quality posts, period, go, do this now.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

          Zeus66, again, you are not here adding value, you are a drama queen and you ONLY jump in when it's about drama. Your "respected" buddy did not contribute to the post, he is being self righteous. I guess, what are we talking about here ethics, religion, politics? Every one of the well respected marketers in the IM niche use scarcity that your buddy would consider as lying. I guess we are ALL going to hell, well, of course, except for you and steve. Get off your high horse and instead of trolling this site looking for fights, go, write some good quality posts, period, go, do this now.
          You don't get it do you? Yes, we use scarcity...legitimate scarcity. Ask
          anybody who has tried to get anything from me after it's been sold out.

          You can rationalize and justify your marketing tactics all you want.

          A pig in a tuxedo is still a pig.

          No wonder people hate Internet marketers. We have scum like this ruining
          this industry for us.

          PS - I have reported this thread to the help desk. I feel it sends the
          wrong message to other members that it's okay to lie to prospects
          and customers.

          Where is Paul Myers on this issue. I'd love to hear what he'd have to
          say to the OP.
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          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
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            • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
              JohnMcCabe, you are right. I have been corrected and I understand that I've got to be more careful. I respect you and your comments. Steve was right, you can't just type really fast and put whatever comes out in your examples, you must RE READ your posts and make sure there are not things that could mislead people.

              I do not advocate lying and will definitely be more thoughtful and everyone has set me straight and I'm sure that I'll be corrected immediately if I make any other mistakes and that is what a forum is all about, thank you all.

              Derek J. Soto
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              • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

                JohnMcCabe, you are right. I have been corrected and I understand that I've got to be more careful. I respect you and your comments. Steve was right, you can't just type really fast and put whatever comes out in your examples, you must RE READ your posts and make sure there are not things that could mislead people.

                I do not advocate lying and will definitely be more thoughtful and everyone has set me straight and I'm sure that I'll be corrected immediately if I make any other mistakes and that is what a forum is all about, thank you all.

                Derek J. Soto
                For anyone wondering what Derek is talking about, I made a post taking him to task for seeming to justify lying by saying "everyone does it." When I hit the submit button, he had already clarified his position, so I deleted the post...
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

      Steven Wagenheim, thanks for your reply, REALLY? Do you honestly think that I ONLY allow 70 people on my list?

      Have you EVER HEARD of SCARCITY?

      I guess 99% OF ALL COMPANIES ARE LYING when they say, "we're only letting ten people in." Do you honestly think they are only going to let ten people in?

      Grow up and stop looking for ways to criticize and look at the marketing,if you don't like this game, you know where the door is.
      So much I want to say and so little time to say it.

      YOU...my friend...are the reason why this industry has gotten such a bad
      name and a terrible black eye.

      So, you'll say only 75 will be allowed but in reality you'll build as big a list
      as you can.

      You are a liar and a fraud...PERIOD.

      Folks...here is a lesson on how to destroy your credibility in one shot.

      Good luck weaseling your way out of this one.

      PS - John, thanks for standing up for me.
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      • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
        Steven, bless your heart, you've not added value, all you did was tear me down to boost your ego. If that has made you feel better, then by all means, have at it. your comments will no longer be required in my posts. I am glad that you feel better at my expense.
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
    PhoebeSmellyCat, thank you! I love when someone who actually understands what I'm talking about comes forward and it wasn't all these "pros" it was you, a newbie! You are awesome and I appreciate you taking your valuable time to reply to my post.

    You see, the "pros" read a post and say, "how can I punch holes in this?" and the "newbies" read a post and say, "How can I learn from this?" I like that.

    You are exactly right, I did the same exact thing you did! Your comments are welcome anytime.
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  • Profile picture of the author SutejoTan
    you're damn right. The oldie law still works like a charm - "give first ,receive later".

    Definitely we must set ourselves like a pro first, only then, whatever we say , our visitors are always following what we say.
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    PM me, If you want to do swap .THx
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
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    • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
      Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

      alright, so I've been publicly flogged, and I needed it too. can we get back to the marketing now? Does anyone else have any ideas on how my original post can be implemented in different niches?
      Yup.

      Removing the "75 exclusivity bull****".

      Man, if I where you, I would edit out your posts bashing Zeus, Steven, and anyone else who is calling you out.

      You are, in a word, advocating outright lying in your post. Unless of course you truly advocate only building up a 75 member list.

      If that is the case, you should probably add that to your OP.

      Rob
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron Ansy
    well I dont 100% agree with the post... since there is sooo much competition.. if you dont let anyone IN or make conditions for them to opt-in.., most of them will go somewhere else and will get somewhat similar stuff by optin in..
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      Ron Ansy, Valid point, what I am trying to get across in this particular post is to be different and to use psychology to make people want to be on your list. I agree many will leave as I've seen in my testing, but the ones that enter are really gold leads. Thanks for your feedback.

      Derek J. Soto
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      • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
        Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

        Ron Ansy, Valid point, what I am trying to get across in this particular post is to be different and to use psychology to make people want to be on your list. I agree many will leave as I've seen in my testing, but the ones that enter are really gold leads. Thanks for your feedback.

        Derek J. Soto
        That's where your OP was solid, Derek. Too many marketers try to do what everyone else is doing. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but a lot of times the easier money is in setting yourself apart. Find a different angle. Unique Selling Position. Thinking outside the box. Whatever you want to call it - it's great advice!

        When I used to do a lot of phone sales in a business I had from 1997-2002, I stumbled into this concept. Business was good, so I didn't really need to work hard to get new customers. So I kind of developed the anti-sales tactic... even though at the time I didn't think of it as a strategy or anything. I basically tried to talk people out of buying from me if, after talking for awhile, it became clear that it might not be the best match. I'm talking about doing that even with prospects that I thought my service might help.... I just wasn't 100% sure. Honestly, I only did it to save myself the headache on the back-end, and as I mentioned, because business was booming already. I had that luxury.

        Long story longer, it turns out that it was so refreshing for a lot of the prospects to actually be told not to buy that they became even more rabid to buy! Freaked me out. For the longest time I didn't get why that was happening. But it's a classic example of doing things differently and the way that sets you apart from your competition. As Derek rightly pointed out in the OP - don't do what everyone else does!

        John
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        • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
          Zeus66, thats what I'm talking about man! great post and I really appreciate you taking the time to do it. Your posts are welcome anytime.

          Derek J. Soto
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      The opt in form is not dead but it can and will undergo some changes over the next few years. I've now integrated my opt in forms into small social networks I can build in 48 hours or less at next to no cost. So they join my list and my social network in one fell swoop (icontact integration at the moment).

      Thing is people rarely cancel their social network profiles and they routinely sign up for social networks (without thinking - "woah I am giving out my email address") and get the added advantages of socializing with other members. Win- win and it doesn't even feel like they are opting in. different perspective focused on.


      and um yes steven is right and it does have to do with marketing. Credibility sells and the easiest way to seem credible is to be credible. lying to your customers isn't the way to go. (see below for a suggestion on fixing that)


      My approach with social networks works well with your approach. Acceptance to the community can be subject to approval or you can accept anyone and have approval for a group in that community and use both approaches in one and that group could in truth only take 75 members that become your most serious customers. When that tops out you can consider opening another group etc with slightly less or different benefits..
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      • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
        Mike Anthony, thanks for your post, I've edited the post to reflect what I really meant as it as an example I just scrawled out really quickly.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonthewebmaster
    Banned
    Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

    I see so many copy cats putting up opt-in forms and begging for their visitors to opt-in to their lists, it's really sad.

    That's just like going to a bar, just like every other guy, and begging girls to buy them a drink! You see this all the time, "Can I buy you a drink, can I buy you a drink?!"

    Why would you ask someone if you can buy them a drink! It turns girls off, and they'll use and abuse you 95% of the time!

    So why are you going to raise the "free line"?

    To be honest with you, the bad news is that you can't beat the gurus at "raising the free line." You don't have the credibility, you don't have the clout, you don't have the connections, etc.

    Why join em, when you can beat em?

    Here's what you SHOULD do instead, ...ready?

    You should make your site visitors try to sell you on why they should be on your list. ( your list and what you offer on it should be the opt-in bait )

    My list is an exclusive club, why should I let you in?

    example: the dating pros go to bars and they NEVER ask if they can buy a girl a drink, instead, the girls buy them drinks!

    When someone goes to your website, you should have some content, some great content, a video, a really good article, whatever.

    But, it's got to be DIFFERENT and INTRIGUING and make your visitors want more. Take your time on this, don't rush through it like everybody else.

    ( side note: have you noticed marketers using this in their subject lines, ...don't worry, no opt-in required! How sad is this?! )

    Then tell them that your best stuff is in your email series, that is a closed group, "by invitation only." where you "SPILL THE BEANS" and tell them everything they need to know about your niche.

    Then instead of an opt-in form, have a form and a question that says, "Why should I let you in to my exclusive e-mail list, which is only for serious people who actually want real results?" (use your own words, be thoughtful)

    ...we also have a waiting list and if we do choose you, we will send you an e-mail ( or text depending on you system capabilities ) telling you where you can join, if we do not accept you within a few days, you can apply again and we'll revisit your application..."there are only 75 people on our exclusive e-mailing list and we take your answers very seriously when determining acceptance...( again, use your own words, I'm being too literal here in these examples... good copy takes time, you should spend several hours on this, also carefully plan out your questions, which you can also use to determine what they would buy from you)

    under the form, you'll have a email only opt in box that says "tell us where to notify you of our decision... ( you are getting their e-mail and they'll be put on a "waiting list" where you can have an autoresponder follow up telling them whether or not they were approved for the "exclusive" list, if they were not approved, they can remain on the regular list and you can give them ways to "earn" their way to your "exclusive list"

    I've also been testing out telling them ALL that they were not approved at this time, but to try back, and ANYONE that tries back is accepted!

    DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW RESPONSIVE MY LEADS FROM THIS PROJECT ARE? IT'S INSANE!

    or, you can do it like everybody else and wonder why you have a massive list of tire kickers who only gave you their email address to take you up on your bribe.

    My list is full of people who applied for the sole purpose of BEING on my list, what do you think my open rates are? What do you think my conversion rates are? :-)

    I started doing this because I was tired of having a list full of people who only gave me their email address to get "free stuff" , doing it this way just builds a list of "tire kickers" who expect the world from you for free, just like girls who you beg to buy drinks for and you have to WASTE TIME trying to turn a tire kicker into a buyer, it SUCKS!

    YOU CAN'T MAKE A HOE A HOUSE WIFE AND YOU CAN'T MAKE A TIRE KICKER A BUYER.

    No, instead, this new way that I've been doing it has drastically REDUCED the number of leads I get and have drastically IMPROVED my income and EVERYONE on my list signed up TO BE ON MY LIST.

    After doing this, I've enjoyed internet marketing much more.

    Don't take my word for it, go ahead and test this out and let me know how it turns out for you after a month or so, you'll be glad you did :-)

    professionally,

    Derek J. Soto

    321-961-8732
    Oh wow, this is very cool idea. I agree 100% because it seems like even if they do subscribe, they either un-subscribe the same day, don't confirm, don't open the email, or open it and then flag it as spam... so it's like why the hell did u subscribe then geez LOL

    I will try this, great idea thanks very much for helping us "flip the script"...
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    • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
      Jasonthewebmaster, thanks for your reply. There are too many people being predictable and this is boring and doesn't let you stand out, but MOST people aren't doing this and that is why it really intrigues people into thinking "This guys stuff must be good, because everyone else is begging me to take their stuff and this guy makes me apply for his stuff" I really loved the psychology of it all.
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  • Profile picture of the author marketwarrior06
    Banned
    well said bro. its a good technique to make million online but in our subcontinent this is not widely used
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    • Profile picture of the author robwatson
      This is my first post on the Warrior Forum and the subject of this thread has prompted me to comment.
      I do find the initial concept raised at the start very thought provoking and as matter of fact quite interesting. So in it's action of making us think about other probabilities it has done it's trick, after all that is what a forum and a post is all about.
      On what was suggested at the beginning, from me as so called Newbie, I do think it has a point. So many are using the "Free Report" as an enticement to submit your email address and then following up with further rubbish that it is starting to have a negative impact. People are starting to realize the Reports are rubbish and only quickly followed by long sales pages and equally content lacking emails.
      Therefore if you present some form of exclusivity to your mailing list and that by optin in you are treated different it will be looked at from a different angle. (Membership sites do exactly that by restricting their access in one way or another) This idea in the beginning really was suggesting a form of restriction to make someone want to feel part of a restricted slightly privileged list that would not maybe inundated with dosh.
      OK it may have come across slightly not right and rubbed one or two up just because of words used but at the end of the day it has made us think about the idea.
      I like what has been mentioned and will be trialing it on one of my websites but presented slightly different.
      Many thanks for an interesting topic.
      RoB
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      • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
        rob watson, thank you so much for addressing THE POINT! Such a breath of fresh air, people get so hung up on mistakes or semantics and you GET IT! It's about the marketing. You don't have to do what I say, but I did take my time out to write it and you can use what you like and don't use what you don't.

        Ok, anyway, yes, let me know how it works out for you my brother and if you need anything, let me know!

        Derek J. Soto
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
    marketwarrior06, thanks for your reply, you are exactly right, not widely used is the key to this whole thing. When you are not predictable, when your page looks different, people don't already have preconceived views about your process and therefore it gets their attention more and they will be more likely to engage with it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
    Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

    You should make your site visitors try to sell you on why they should be on your list. ( your list and what you offer on it should be the opt-in bait )
    This is a strategy I am employing on my forums.

    I am hoping it will help keep out profile and forum spammers.
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    Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

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  • Profile picture of the author Oxbloom
    You don't need to "fake exclusivity."

    Make your opt-in list truly exclusive. Charge people to get on it.

    Short sales pitch with compelling reasons to join, call it a "membership," and charge people seven bucks a month. Or seven bucks for a lifetime membership.

    Hell, if you feel frisky, charge more...your list will let you know whether you're worth it in short order.

    You get ridiculously high open rates, proven buyers, and as a bonus, a little bit of instant income. People take information they paid for FAR more seriously, and devote a LOT more attention to it. Even if it's just a few bucks.

    If you actually have something to say, and can continue to make it worth the prospect's while to keep opening and reading your emails, you can make a high-percentage killing.

    You don't even need to go through all the hoops of making it a truly secure membership. If people share your opt-in link and get on your list for free? Good! Let them. If they're interested enough to sneak in, they'll be interested enough to read along.
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  • Profile picture of the author supreme
    I think List building is OK. what sucks is Auto-responders.

    It's hard to find that 100% of your prospects are ready to make a purchase the minute they receive your email. As an example, any time I receive an nice offer on email. i leave it for later. maybe two days later i'd like to re-consider the offer but i can't locate the email because:
    1. the sender has a had to remember name
    2. every email (s)he sends has a link to a different web site from the previous one, so really its hard to locate the products they recommend.

    The are two web sites I like erictips.com and affhelper.com (did you notice that I didn't mention the owners behind them? i.e. Eric H. and Pawel R. respectively). this is because 80% of the emails I receive for being on their list(s) refer me to ONE Central web site - incase I miss something for whatever reason i can always revisit the website peruse through and see the offer or content I missed.

    Recommendation:
    Have one central site where you offer FREE content, Quality Content and product reviews. This way you'll be cautious of publishing crap next to quality content, in this regard you'll avoid spamming and do things more correctly.

    Also Not forgetting - in as much as people read their emails, they are very UNlikely to forward a copy to their friends. but for some reason people find it easier to share links on social media.

    Once I click your redirect link it will lead me to the main site and i'll share the link on facebook (and mind you this link is not your Aff. URL)

    In some cases I've received spam with enticing subject lines, am prompted to open and read through. if the info is exciting enough, i don't click the url, but i do a product search on Google, i check on several reviews and see one that makes sense, so the spammer loses the sale to someone who had quality content that was readily Available.

    Content that has value and is centrally placed and easily accessible will always build long term value.

    Another example is Seth Godin's Blog one of the most read issue/ blog in marketing. he links to free ebooks directly on his blog posts (No optin required). the feed subscription is available on the left but no pop ups or exit offers e.t.c.

    It's the high time we create quality content that readers can resist to share. let the non-buyers be your messengers to spread the word that could reach potential buyers.

    that's it for now.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

    YOU CAN'T MAKE A HOE A HOUSE WIFE AND YOU CAN'T MAKE A TIRE KICKER A BUYER.
    I turn freebie seekers into buyers all the time. It's a simple three step process:

    1) Send them valuable information for free on a regular basis so they get to know and trust you, and come to appreciate the quality of your information.

    2) Create a product they're interested in and sell it really cheap. With a "no-brainer" price this product is the ice breaker with them. Make sure the product is worth far more than you're asking so buying it is a positive experience. This is similar to a "loss leader" product only there is no loss, you can still make thousands of dollars selling the product for less than it's worth. Of course, you can make thousands more selling from your website at a more traditional price.

    3) The ice has been broken -- sell them more stuff. They'll pay more now that they've had a good experience in buying from you.

    It really is that simple. I've been doing this for years.
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  • So in one hand you say that a Newbie cannot compete with gurus because he has no name and no credibility in the industry, yet in the other hand you recommend that same newbie to look "VIP" (even though he has no brand or recognition) and to put obstacles in front of a potential new customer...

    Sorry, but in my opinion that makes no business sense. You don't want to put any type of resistance to any new potential prospect. That is like a totally unknown retail shop setting the store somewhere in the woods and saying: "if you wanna buy from me, you gotta find me first!"
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    • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
      I love these threads debating list building, I hope I can join in the battle

      Overlooking the other stuff, I can see where the OP is coming from regarding making it a privilege to be on your list, rather than a right.

      I personally think (well actually, I know) that too many people are building junk lists, the way they are going about it.

      Opt-in forms aren't dead, it depends on the mindset of the traffic - are they in a "buying state" or an "information seeking" state when they arrive at your website?

      If it's the former, I would much prefer to have them on a sales page, if it is the latter, I want them to opt-in to a prospect list so I can follow up with them.

      One thing I would say, is that your focus should always be to build your buyer list, NOT your opt-in list.

      Too many people make the opt-in list their main objective, rather than the buyer list. Big mistake.

      The opt-in list is simply a tool to help contribute to your buyer list.

      Ultimately though, whatever you're doing you've got to test everything and see how the numbers play out.
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek Soto
    Ok, some people got what I said, and some didn't. This is not a debate saying whether list building is good or not. This not to say that the classic way doesn't work, my post addresses the fact that people that spam their lists have given the classic opt-in style a bad name and have made it harder for the rest of us.

    Then, build any list you want, just build a list. No way is any better than any other as long as YOU like YOUR numbers.

    I build several differen types of lists, buyer lists, prebuyer lists ( people who got half way through the cart ) tire kicker lists, social media lists, telephone text lists, you name it.

    so it's not a debate, although I know as we've seen, most people don't really care about the marketing as they do the "fight" they are blood thirsty and this is not what I'm here for. Yes, people have knocked me down, put me down, kicked me, insulted me, talked down to me, but it's ok, I do not judge them. To each their own.

    I just wanted and intended this post to spark some ideas in this community and see what people would do with it! Go, implement this or something that this post has sparked for you and let me know what happens!

    I'm pretty much done with this post and will no longer be replying in it. Later on, I'll post about some of the other cool stuff I'm doing once I feel like I have enough solid data to do so.

    For those of you who want to continue the "debate" "putting down" etc. have at it...

    Derek J. Soto
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Originally Posted by ricocrownmedia View Post

    I just wanted and intended this post to spark some ideas in this community and see what people would do with it! Go, implement this or something that this post has sparked for you and let me know what happens!

    I'm pretty much done with this post and will no longer be replying in it. Later on, I'll post about some of the other cool stuff I'm doing once I feel like I have enough solid data to do so.

    For those of you who want to continue the "debate" "putting down" etc. have at it...

    Derek J. Soto
    Derek, you said you wanted to spark some ideas ... but that doesn't mean everyone will or has to agree with you. There were good ideas brought out, so you were successful in that regard. Some of the ideas may be in conflict with your ideas, but it's all good. That's how we learn. We often learn more from those that disagree with us than from those who agree with everything we say.

    Part of the trouble is that you state your opinion as undeniable fact. You can expect absolutes to be challenged by someone most every time you use them. Opt-in forms are not dead. Freebies seekers can be converted into buyers. That doesn't mean what you said has no value.

    Unless I missed it, I saw no "put downs" in this thread other than a couple comments in response to you appearing to advocate lying. You should be called out for that, but you clarified your position and seemed to work through any issues, so I don't understand why you're abandoning your own thread.

    Did you really want a discussion, or did you want to have your say go unchallenged?
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    • Profile picture of the author bradlean
      For me optin form it's not dead!

      Period.

      That's the way it is!
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      • Profile picture of the author Sharingan
        Ahahahahaha! This is the funniest thread yet and the method recommended here is strongly ill advised and I say this with no disrespect to the OP. I will tell you why..

        Let's revisit that analogy about dating as it made me spit my coffee out i laughed so hard. If I use the OP's method and try and look for only the girls who want to be with me or spend money on me I have now reduced the numbers of girls I come into contact with and in so eliminating any chance I had to sell all those other beauties to go home with me grrrowll....

        Now if I go back to the standard way of doing thins the numbers are in my favor. The OP says this method is dead and weak but it is what I say to these girls that matter(i wouldnt ask to buy her a drink rather I would pay her compliments, strike up conversation, find some common ground, relate to her and in doing so convince her that I understand her and she would have a better time leaving the club with me).

        OK CUT THE LAME ANALOGY and back to marketing. The OP's style of "hey why should you be on my list" filter style is only a reflection of a lack of confidence in one's copy, and persuasion conveyed through literature.

        Moreover, filtering out the tire kickers so to speak will not only reduce your numbers therefore your sales but more importantly and what I am about to say is very important: It will also reduce the opportunity to craft your copy skills and improve them. If i write copy to already sold buyers I make money and delude myself into thinking my copy is top notch...that is until i enter a different niche or come across prospects that are tire kickers and i realize my copy couldn't sway a crack head to get doped up.

        Again to everyone in this forum, the only way to make it in this industry is improving your copy. The only way to improve your copy is to keep writing and testing your copy on prospects to see if you can turn prospects(tirekikers) into buyers. If you see your list is not making said transition and you are getting poor conversions well now you have a statisic to judge how much progress you need to make to improve your, say it with me................................................ .COPY

        thank you ladies and gentlemen, case closed.

        p.s. Is Optin Dead? Well...Is Google Bankrupt.......hahahahahagoogle bankrupt sorry i had to laugh at that one
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        • Profile picture of the author WillR
          Originally Posted by Sharingan View Post

          The OP says this method is dead and weak but it is what I say to these girls that matter(i wouldnt ask to buy her a drink rather I would pay her compliments, strike up conversation, find some common ground, relate to her and in doing so convince her that I understand her and she would have a better time leaving the club with me).
          Now THAT made me spit out my coffee. Paying a girl compliments and convincing her to leave the club with you will only do one thing, make her realize you are a wuss just like the other 15 guys who tried it on her before. Why do you think most girls say that like 'bad' boys.

          Anyway, back to marketing, here's two other alternatives to this method.

          1. Your squeeze page is a survey where people have to answer questions. You can word them in a way that the prospect feels they are trying to prove to you they are worthy of getting your advice or being on your list. If done correctly a survey is also a great way to show your prospects how little they know about a particular topic so it re-enforces their need for help.

          2. Your squeeze page can be a simple wordpress page with a video offering content of value. Near the end of the video you tell people to leave a comment below the video explaining what the best thing they learnt in that video was and how they plan to implement it. If they do so you will give them instant access to X. When they submit their comment you add them to your email list and send them the free product you promised. This is an optin page in disguise. New visitors to your site will be more likely to watch the video because of all the social proof comments below the video and by asking people to leave their comments below, it re-enforces in their mind what they already learnt in your video.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dhira
            Originally Posted by WillR View Post

            Now THAT made me spit out my coffee. Paying a girl compliments and convincing her to leave the club with you will only do one thing, make her realize you are a wuss just like the other 15 guys who tried it on her before. Why do you think most girls say that like 'bad' boys.

            Anyway, back to marketing, here's two other alternatives to this method.

            1. Your squeeze page is a survey where people have to answer questions. You can word them in a way that the prospect feels they are trying to prove to you they are worthy of getting your advice or being on your list. If done correctly a survey is also a great way to show your prospects how little they know about a particular topic so it re-enforces their need for help.

            2. Your squeeze page can be a simple wordpress page with a video offering content of value. Near the end of the video you tell people to leave a comment below the video explaining what the best thing they learnt in that video was and how they plan to implement it. If they do so you will give them instant access to X. When they submit their comment you add them to your email list and send them the free product you promised. This is an optin page in disguise. New visitors to your site will be more likely to watch the video because of all the social proof comments below the video and by asking people to leave their comments below, it re-enforces in their mind what they already learnt in your video.
            Now THIS right here is brilliant.
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          • Profile picture of the author Sharingan
            Originally Posted by WillR View Post

            Now THAT made me spit out my coffee. Paying a girl compliments and convincing her to leave the club with you will only do one thing, make her realize you are a wuss just like the other 15 guys who tried it on her before. Why do you think most girls say that like 'bad' boys.

            Anyway, back to marketing, here's two other alternatives to this method.

            1. Your squeeze page is a survey where people have to answer questions. You can word them in a way that the prospect feels they are trying to prove to you they are worthy of getting your advice or being on your list. If done correctly a survey is also a great way to show your prospects how little they know about a particular topic so it re-enforces their need for help.

            2. Your squeeze page can be a simple wordpress page with a video offering content of value. Near the end of the video you tell people to leave a comment below the video explaining what the best thing they learnt in that video was and how they plan to implement it. If they do so you will give them instant access to X. When they submit their comment you add them to your email list and send them the free product you promised. This is an optin page in disguise. New visitors to your site will be more likely to watch the video because of all the social proof comments below the video and by asking people to leave their comments below, it re-enforces in their mind what they already learnt in your video.
            I understand the first 1. Since that is the exact topic of this very thread. With the second one how is it that you obtain the email when one is just commenting(im assuming their is and email field with the comment & submit form. Im just asking to clarify) and how do the comments and video encourage the prospect to look out for your email when all they think is that they are commenting.

            This style to me anyway can reduce the focus of the prospect. We want to be upfront and tell them I'm going to send you info look out for it and get excited about it rather then just let them assume your going to send them quality info to their email. This may work in IM niche since this is what we expect when we (somewhat reluctantly)hand over our email addresses. But a prospect in the dog niche for instance may say cool i get a report for commenting and never lookout for you email again. Even if you remind them in their mind the only reason they gave you the email address was to be able to comment and get the item(bad focus), when what you really want is the prospect to be excited about the content they just saw, excited about the emails they will get and the free item is just a bonus to give them that extra special something(good focus).

            Disguise is never a good way to build a relationship. And it is because of this disguise technique, this need for marketers to hide sneak as many emails in peoples boxes while they focus on your distractions that all these markets are filled with mistrust making it harder for new marketers to break in! Im sick and tired of absolute 0 transparency websites that make you walk through hoops only to misguide you ON THE FIRST ENCOUNTER. Now THAT made me spit out my coffee but this time....in disgust!

            Here is the best way to setup an optin in my opinion. Setup a standard squeeze and give away report or video in exchange for their email. Let the prospect know that you will "occasionally"(basically saying I wont spam you which makes them less reluctant) be sending the info and resources that will help them get the job done(this excites the prospect).

            This next step is crucial. DO NOT send the report in pdf format. This takes them off the buying medium that is the internet. Instead after they submit link to the free report or video you promised them on a web page. Then When they read the report or video, place a continue link under neath the content as the prospect is engaged. Link to a sales page with a great product you recomend or you can link to a blog with more rich content and this whole process you took the prospect through has created honesty, a bond, and the basis of a relationship is built by being upfront and having what many marketers lack today "Integrity". Then rely on your sales copy to weed out the non buyers and turn non buyers into buyers.

            That my friends is the best way to do it. Standard is standard for a reason. All you other pretenders, please stop polluting our markets
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            • Profile picture of the author WillR
              Originally Posted by Sharingan View Post

              I understand the first 1. Since that is the exact topic of this very thread. With the second one how is it that you obtain the email when one is just commenting(im assuming their is and email field with the comment & submit form. Im just asking to clarify) and how do the comments and video encourage the prospect to look out for your email when all they think is that they are commenting.

              This style to me anyway can reduce the focus of the prospect. We want to be upfront and tell them I'm going to send you info look out for it and get excited about it rather then just let them assume your going to send them quality info to their email. This may work in IM niche since this is what we expect when we (somewhat reluctantly)hand over our email addresses. But a prospect in the dog niche for instance may say cool i get a report for commenting and never lookout for you email again. Even if you remind them in their mind the only reason they gave you the email address was to be able to comment and get the item(bad focus), when what you really want is the prospect to be excited about the content they just saw, excited about the emails they will get and the free item is just a bonus to give them that extra special something(good focus).

              Disguise is never a good way to build a relationship. And it is because of this disguise technique, this need for marketers to hide sneak as many emails in peoples boxes while they focus on your distractions that all these markets are filled with mistrust making it harder for new marketers to break in! Im sick and tired of absolute 0 transparency websites that make you walk through hoops only to misguide you ON THE FIRST ENCOUNTER. Now THAT made me spit out my coffee but this time....in disgust!

              Here is the best way to setup an optin in my opinion. Setup a standard squeeze and give away report or video in exchange for their email. Let the prospect know that you will "occasionally"(basically saying I wont spam you which makes them less reluctant) be sending the info and resources that will help them get the job done(this excites the prospect).

              This next step is crucial. DO NOT send the report in pdf format. This takes them off the buying medium that is the internet. Instead after they submit link to the free report or video you promised them on a web page. Then When they read the report or video, place a continue link under neath the content as the prospect is engaged. Link to a sales page with a great product you recomend or you can link to a blog with more rich content and this whole process you took the prospect through has created honesty, a bond, and the basis of a relationship is built by being upfront and having what many marketers lack today "Integrity". Then rely on your sales copy to weed out the non buyers and turn non buyers into buyers.

              That my friends is the best way to do it. Standard is standard for a reason. All you other pretenders, please stop polluting our markets
              Ok, I'm wrong. You keep doing what you are doing. Pffftt
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            • Profile picture of the author WillR
              Originally Posted by Sharingan View Post

              This next step is crucial. DO NOT send the report in pdf format. This takes them off the buying medium that is the internet. Instead after they submit link to the free report or video you promised them on a web page.
              So you don't want to take them away from the buying medium however you will give them a link to the free report? What do you think that is doing - how can they read that free report without leaving the site?

              The best method is in fact to use a sandwich page where the free content is provided right on the page.
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              • Profile picture of the author Sharingan
                Originally Posted by WillR View Post

                So you don't want to take them away from the buying medium however you will give them a link to the free report? What do you think that is doing - how can they read that free report without leaving the site?

                The best method is in fact to use a sandwich page where the free content is provided right on the page.

                A free report can be anywhere. It can be in paperback, hardcover, pdf or on a web page. A free report can be tattooed on my mahogany chest it can be anywhere. What I said was on the page where you have the optin, you have them submit and Instead after they submit they get taken to the free report or video you promised them and that free report or video is on a on a web page.which is exactly what a sandwich page is. Then the continue button leads to a sales page. This is a sandwich page. You are agreeing with what I'm saying even when your inclined to disagree.

                My brother. We are agreeing with each other. I guess you can say we are on the same page......or the same....."web" page get it? web page! ooohhhhh now that was clever!
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  • Profile picture of the author paulie888
    This is certainly an interesting approach, and it could work depending on how you structure your offer, and what niche you're in.

    I certainly agree that this approach is probably going to result in higher open rates and generally more responsive subscribers, but the thing you may be overlooking here is that you could be turning away enough of these "tire kickers" and ultimately lower the overall number of people who could have responded. Notice that I stated overall number, and not response rate/percentage.

    So while the response and open rate may be higher with these responsive subscribers gained via your method, you could still be losing out on the overall number of responses because you had turned away these tire kickers.

    Ultimately, a higher number of people who respond is going to result in more profits for you, regardless of what the open rate percentage is. So this is something to think about, and the only way you're going to find out for sure is by doing a split test of your squeeze pages.
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  • Profile picture of the author jonibravo
    its not about free stuff its about people need easiness. they go there copy and paste things nd use them where they want.
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  • Profile picture of the author James Blair
    Creativity is a great thing, but opt in forms are far from dead. Whats with all of the "dead" stuff lately anyway??
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  • Profile picture of the author frankfihn
    Derek,

    I tend to agree on the whole. People LOVE to be part of exclusive list. For the guys who struggle with chicks, learn to picky with your selection ie exclusive and watch your results multiply.

    The key point you emphasized is that you have to do it correctly. It's obviously not for everyone and I agree. It takes great sales copy to make someone want to join an exclusive list but the results are well worth it. Because they've put some emotion into joining the list, they're much more likely to read your list with actually reading.

    I have a niche where I think it would work but I'm going to try a hybrid approach. Firstly, I'll have my generic copy and paste list and secondly I'll have my exclusive VIP limited membership only list. I'd be surprised if it doesn't work once I "sell" it. In general our content is pretty great so I think people would work awfully hard to get on it.

    It's really all about how you sell the desirability of it as you emphasized. Therefore, a lot of people are going to give you a hard time as it's new and different but that's just the nature of humans on planet Earth. New ways and ideas are ridiculed until they are self evident. I think it's wicked and just depends on how it's implemented.

    Great post!
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  • Profile picture of the author clever7
    I like your idea! I'm giving a free ebook to collect email addresses. It used to work very well 2 years ago but it's not working so well lately.

    Most people have already downloaded a lot of ebooks, they are tired of getting tons of email messages with offers because they have subscribed to a thousand email lists. They don't even remember who is who, and they don't bother opening all the messages that fill their inbox everyday.

    This means that we really have to do something special if we want to have a responsive email list.

    Thank you very much for sharing with us your brilliant idea!
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  • Profile picture of the author kenbuch
    Building an emaim list has proven to be effective by the gurus.
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  • Profile picture of the author LetsGoViral
    That's just like going to a bar, just like every other guy, and begging girls to buy them a drink! You see this all the time, "Can I buy you a drink, can I buy you a drink?!"

    Why would you ask someone if you can buy them a drink! It turns girls off, and they'll use and abuse you 95% of the time!
    Sure is pickup artists in here.

    Also. I believe too many marketers are focusing on building an email list. Why can't you build a Facebook friend list? Or a Skype contact list? Or a Youtube subscriber list? Twitter follower list? Rss follower list? I agree that it is kind of a turn off to see every wannabe marketers site have an opt-in of some sort. Hey, if you are that good, I'll just bookmark your page.
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