My concerns about the warrior "experts"

by Gewdo
123 replies
Yes I am new here but I am going to point out an a few observations as well as ask a few questions.

It really is alarming to me how much thee "experts" push their WSOs and products, not services, but the get rich quick products. Do you guys sleep well at night doing this? You have a great community here and all it looks like to me, is you are peddling the same bs as each other and just rewording it.

So here are a few questions for you:

Do you actually make money using your tactics or does 99% come from you selling your "product" to people who need of a get rich quick scheme?

If you were actually making money using your tactics, why not share some statistics about your sites? I am NOT talking about dollar amounts, I am talking conversion rates, daily traffic, position and search volume. Providing such information, is more interesting to me than seeing you say "Buy my book on how I made 10k in 3 days." I firmly believe you are making that 10k in 3 days selling a book to needy folks.

Now before you attack me, here is a full disclosure:

I am new to IMing for affiliate sales and list building but have sold service business for 7 figures. I do know a bit about business and realistic numbers. My motives here are not based on any bitterness but I do not like seeing people taken advantage off with promises of riches.

Please feel free to share your thoughts. If I have hurt anyone's feelings, these are just my opinions and I can be way off the mark.

Good luck to all.

Gewdo
#concerns #experts #warrior
  • Profile picture of the author Sparhawke
    I am a rocket scientist.

    Easy enough claim to make, but until people know me talk is cheap, the top marketers are proven, people like TMG, Avenue, Alexa, S.WagenHeim and Gene, CDarklock and the rest...

    If they are full of crap it wont be long until everyone knows.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Sparhawke View Post

      I am a rocket scientist.
      Funny ... I could have sworn you were a brain surgeon ...
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      • Profile picture of the author Sparhawke
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Funny ... I could have sworn you were a brain surgeon ...
        That was last week.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
        Originally Posted by Sparhawke View Post

        I am a rocket scientist.
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Funny ... I could have sworn you were a brain surgeon ...
        And here I thought he was a knight of the Pandion Order.
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        • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
          Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

          And here I thought he was a knight of the Pandion Order.
          You win today's awesome point for referencing one of my favourite authors
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        • Profile picture of the author Sparhawke
          Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

          And here I thought he was a knight of the Pandion Order.
          That was last month :p
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    • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
      Originally Posted by Sparhawke View Post

      I am a rocket scientist.

      Easy enough claim to make, but until people know me talk is cheap, the top marketers are proven, people like TMG, Avenue, Alexa, S.WagenHeim and Gene, CDarklock and the rest...

      If they are full of crap it wont be long until everyone knows.
      Man, you're lucky... I'm just a plain, old A-hole.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
    There are a large number of rehashed get rich quick products available in the WSO forum. There are also some exceptional products, guides, systems etc.

    Over the last few years I've received a priceless marketing/business education from this forum, it's members and products they have released. I've also bought (and subsequently refunded) numerous piles of garbage.

    It's up to the individual to figure out what's what for themselves.
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  • Profile picture of the author aaron_nimocks
    I have asked myself this question before too. There were times I wanted to just make an ebook that had a bunch of good info in it then hype it up and sell it but I never did.

    Personally I just stick to real products with real value that speaks for itself. They way I look at it is anything that needs a long sales page that is selling information, really isnt worth it and is probably full of BS and a bunch of fluff.
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    • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
      The 2 most important words in IM spring to mind..

      Due Diligence

      There is a hell of a lot of crap to be found in the WSO section but the main purveyors don't usually last too long. Having said that there are some real gems to be found, if something sounds too good to be true and there is no proof...then it probably is too good to be true.
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    • Profile picture of the author iSoftware
      Originally Posted by aaron_nimocks View Post

      I have asked myself this question before too. There were times I wanted to just make an ebook that had a bunch of good info in it then hype it up and sell it but I never did.

      Personally I just stick to real products with real value that speaks for itself. They way I look at it is anything that needs a long sales page that is selling information, really isnt worth it and is probably full of BS and a bunch of fluff.
      Yikes. This sounds like the kind of thinking that happens on that other forum with the initial WF.

      The information business is a $40 B business...
      Secondly, this is now a knowledge economy and the value of virtual products exceeds that of physical products...

      Thirdly, you don't study the world's best copywriters like Ted Nicolas or Clayton Makepeace do you?

      I too shared your thinking a while ago. Until I realized that there's an entire ocean of opportunity out there available to people who create quality information-based products WITH THE PROOF to support their claims.

      The point is this: there is no magic pill you can take to make money with out work.

      However, if you get super focused on the fundamentals of business can you make a lot of money fast? Absolutely....
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  • Profile picture of the author ArticlePrince
    I'm sure there are those that don't make anything outside of selling IM products, but that's true of any industry. Bottom line: some people suck. I'm not sure that you should question everyone here based on the idea that 1%-3% of the people here might be taking advantage... Just use your own judgement before buying anything.

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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      You have been a part of this community for 10 whole days and you already think we're all a bunch of shysters?

      First of all, not all the offers here are "get rich quick" stuff. Plenty of us sell products that teach the basics of real business. Perhaps you are simply not looking in the right places?

      Second, unless you've bought any of these products, how on earth can you say they are simply reworded or that the creators are not providing the statistics you mention within the products?

      Sometimes we see only what we want to see, I guess.

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      • Profile picture of the author Gewdo
        Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

        You have been a part of this community for 10 whole days and you already think we're all a bunch of shysters?

        First of all, not all the offers here are "get rich quick" stuff. Plenty of us sell products that teach the basics of real business. Perhaps you are simply not looking in the right places?

        Second, unless you've bought any of these products, how on earth can you say they are simply reworded or that the creators are not providing the statistics you mention within the products?

        Sometimes we see only what we want to see, I guess.

        Tina

        Thank you for your feedback. I was very clear of my position and how long I have been part of the community. I have in fact bought 3 Ebooks as well as one really good helpful wordpress plugin.

        The 3 ebooks were just rehashed knowledge of what is already on the forums and that is the part that is sticking out to me. I did not call all of you "shysters." It was my goal to get more people on track with:
        If you were actually making money using your tactics, why not share some statistics about your sites? I am NOT talking about dollar amounts, I am talking conversion rates, daily traffic, position and search volume. Providing such information, is more interesting to me than seeing you say "Buy my book on how I made 10k in 3 days."

        Best Regards,
        Gewdo
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

          TI did not call all of you "shysters."

          The last guy who made a post of this flavor, just a few days ago, did use the word "shyster" repeatedly in his posts.

          Maybe you did not use the word "shyster" yourself, but the general tenor of your post is basically the same.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
    Banned
    Ah, Gewdo...you are a smart guy.

    Most of the products sold on the warrior forum, or any forum, are all rehashed. Most of the well known posters likely make a significant part of their income from the WF, so it's in their best interest to pump out more and more products.

    Forums are great for marketers. They can give free info, get to know people, and in turn they can sell their products to those they have built up a relationship with. That said, most of the info is not really all that new.

    I've been doing this since 2005 and I've tried it all. My sites have done millions in sales. THE BEST products I've ever purchased have to do with CORE STRATEGIES, yet most of the WSO's here have to do with tactics and tools. Because tactics and tools are a lot easier to WRITE and SELL.

    This isn't a knock on people that product a bunch of ebooks and sell them as WSO's. Maybe some people want to learn something very specific. But most people are likely looking for a way to make money quick. And if you just focus on core strategies, you'll make money consistently.
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    • Profile picture of the author Gewdo
      Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

      Ah, Gewdo...you are a smart guy.

      Most of the products sold on the warrior forum, or any forum, are all rehashed. Most of the well known posters likely make a significant part of their income from the WF, so it's in their best interest to pump out more and more products.

      Forums are great for marketers. They can give free info, get to know people, and in turn they can sell their products to those they have built up a relationship with. That said, most of the info is not really all that new.

      I've been doing this since 2005 and I've tried it all. My sites have done millions in sales. THE BEST products I've ever purchased have to do with CORE STRATEGIES, yet most of the WSO's here have to do with tactics and tools. Because tactics and tools are a lot easier to WRITE and SELL.

      This isn't a knock on people that product a bunch of ebooks and sell them as WSO's. Maybe some people want to learn something very specific. But most people are likely looking for a way to make money quick. And if you just focus on core strategies, you'll make money consistently.

      Great feedback. Thank you for posting.

      Gewdo
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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
    Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

    Yes I am new here but I am going to point out an a few observations as well as ask a few questions.

    It really is alarming to me how much thee "experts" push their WSOs and products, not services, but the get rich quick products. Do you guys sleep well at night doing this? You have a great community here and all it looks like to me, is you are peddling the same bs as each other and just rewording it.

    Well, MY so called "get rich quick" WSO's are based on trials and experiments I do.

    Not much is "rehashed".

    But let me tell you something right now...


    The biggest money in the WSO forum is the "make money uber fast" ebooks and guides.

    Why?

    Because that is what this market demands.


    I've tried selling a few really awesome WSO's that are completely different. One about true financial freedom - how to achieve it by investing, saving, and making money.


    It flopped.


    My next WSO, which was about my Forum Marketing Experiments, (which has made me a ton of cash quickly), made 4 figures in less than 24 hours.


    The difference?


    The demographic of people inside the WSO want products that allow them push button money, for dirt cheap/free.

    A product that is focused around sound business planning, financial principles, and many services, or other stuff like that won't do as well...or sell at all.

    Now, how can someone like me who sells this sort (the push button money for dirt cheap) product sleep at night?

    Easy, with tons of positive testimonials I get with every product.

    Rob
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

      The biggest money in the WSO forum is the "make money uber fast" ebooks and guides.

      Why?

      Because that is what this market demands.
      Exactly so. (And this is what slightly discourages some of us from offering a WSO at all).
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Exactly so. (And this is what slightly discourages some of us from offering a WSO at all).
        You are the most perfect candidate on this forum for writing a WSO its utterly ridiculous for you not to share with such an awesome ability to communicate.

        That is if you have something you want to share. I have 50 testimonials personally from peoples lives who have been changed. In many cases writing a wso is a work of GREATNESS, and inspires others to their own personal epiphany's about what they "can" Do, Be, or Have. It is very rewarding to know that what you share can make such a difference in the lives of others.
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      It's all about developing a reputation with high quality social proof of a product.

      I'd encourage others to not underestimate the value of higher price points EVEN in the WSO forum (I know...where most products sell for $5-$10 and feed off of people thinking "oh, it was ONLY $5...not even worth asking for a refund....)

      Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

      Well, MY so called "get rich quick" WSO's are based on trials and experiments I do.

      Not much is "rehashed".

      But let me tell you something right now...


      The biggest money in the WSO forum is the "make money uber fast" ebooks and guides.

      Why?

      Because that is what this market demands.


      I've tried selling a few really awesome WSO's that are completely different. One about true financial freedom - how to achieve it by investing, saving, and making money.


      It flopped.


      My next WSO, which was about my Forum Marketing Experiments, (which has made me a ton of cash quickly), made 4 figures in less than 24 hours.


      The difference?


      The demographic of people inside the WSO want products that allow them push button money, for dirt cheap/free.

      A product that is focused around sound business planning, financial principles, and many services, or other stuff like that won't do as well...or sell at all.

      Now, how can someone like me who sells this sort (the push button money for dirt cheap) product sleep at night?

      Easy, with tons of positive testimonials I get with every product.

      Rob
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    • Profile picture of the author TimG
      Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

      Well, MY so called "get rich quick" WSO's are based on trials and experiments I do.

      Not much is "rehashed".

      But let me tell you something right now...


      The biggest money in the WSO forum is the "make money uber fast" ebooks and guides.

      Why?

      Because that is what this market demands.


      I've tried selling a few really awesome WSO's that are completely different. One about true financial freedom - how to achieve it by investing, saving, and making money.


      It flopped.


      My next WSO, which was about my Forum Marketing Experiments, (which has made me a ton of cash quickly), made 4 figures in less than 24 hours.


      The difference?


      The demographic of people inside the WSO want products that allow them push button money, for dirt cheap/free.

      A product that is focused around sound business planning, financial principles, and many services, or other stuff like that won't do as well...or sell at all.

      Now, how can someone like me who sells this sort (the push button money for dirt cheap) product sleep at night?

      Easy, with tons of positive testimonials I get with every product.

      Rob
      Rob,
      Spot on - I've had some WSO's that I thought were simply awesome but the flopped so bad it was mind blowing and I've had other WSOs that I still felt were fantastic products and they did exceptionally well.

      My only issue is when we have to resort to out salemanship each other with unfounded claims. Have you seen some of the titles used for WSOs? Those get rich quick labels are simply misleading in my opinion which makes it sometimes difficult to compete.

      After all, who wants to buy a WSO that requires someone to work their tail off for 3-4 solid months in order to setup a system that sends thousands of visitors to their websites on autopilot when they can purchase the make $1000 in 48 hours or make $10,000 in 30 days WSO? :rolleyes:

      One thing I've been told time and again by other successfulmarketers in this forum is that I have the steak in my products but I need the sizzle in my WSO titles. It's something I'm working on but I have a fine line to balance internally when I create my own particular WSO titles (sigh).

      Please note I am not referring to you or your products as I have purchased some of them and they were high quality. I'm just making a general statement.

      Respectfully,
      Tim
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      • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
        Originally Posted by TimG View Post

        Rob,
        One thing I've been told time and again by other successfulmarketers in this forum is that I have the steak in my products but I need the sizzle in my WSO titles. It's something I'm working on but I have a fine line to balance internally when I create my own particular WSO titles (sigh).

        Respectfully,
        Tim
        Yeah, the titles is where it is at. But it is hard to write a good title without going overboard.

        But I just use common sense - if it's true, I put it down.

        So a good title for me would be:

        "College Dropout Tells His Minimum Wage Job To Stick It - Then Goes and Makes 10k Online. See How Inside"

        Or something like that...lol

        In any event, everything in the title is true.

        Rob
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by TimG View Post

        After all, who wants to buy a WSO that requires someone to work their tail off for 3-4 solid months in order to setup a system that sends thousands of visitors to their websites on autopilot when they can purchase the make $1000 in 48 hours or make $10,000 in 30 days WSO? :rolleyes:

        That is the real truth of the WSO marketplace.

        The WSO Marketplace should be identified for what it really is -- a microcosm of the Internet Marketing community.

        Sure, there are nearly one-quarter million members of the Warrior Forum, but that is just a drop in the bucket for the whole of the IM community.

        As I have said many times before, 98% of my past customers have never even heard of the Warrior Forum.

        I have been selling services online since 2001. Those services I delivered helped a lot of people make a lot of money.

        Many of my customers have long told me that my services are under-priced, while strangers are quick to point to my "high prices" as a reason they would never use my services. LOL

        I have made five-figures in 3-days many times.

        I create products for extra money, money for which I don't have to deliver a service after the sale. I can get paid and move on to what I want to do, rather than to get to work delivering a purchased service.

        When I create a product, I take it to the WSO forum first, to test the sales copy and to test price points. Once I have a winner, then I raise the price and put it on my own website, and start selling it to the outside IM community.

        But I tend to create products that address the technical how-to's that people need to know to be successful over the long-term. Those kinds of products are a little less attractive to a marketplace that mostly wants shiny objects that promise them the sun and the moon, with little or no work required.

        I could legitimately say, "Make $10,000 in 3-Days" with many of my products, but most people will never be able to replicate what I had done in three days, because there is preparation time and advanced work that must be completed to make that possible.

        The time I wrote and published an article that generated $38,000 in sales in 3-days, there was 4-days of preparation in advance to bring that whole process together.

        And since I was selling services on the back end, it took several more weeks to complete the work associated with those transactions.

        People don't want to hear about anything that takes 4-days to prepare and one month to deliver, so that they can make $10,000 or $38,000 in 3-Days.

        In my products, I give you the wrenches you need to turn the bolts, but most people who buy WSO products are looking for me to give them the genie that will turn the bolts for them.

        In the real world, the only genie that exists is the garage genie on your garage door.

        In order to use what I share in my products, you must bring a willingness to learn, and a willingness to invest the effort into making the processes I teach work for you.

        I teach people what they need to know to make money.

        The only people that don't benefit from the products I sell are people who don't understand follow-through and taking action.

        I don't screw them; they screw themselves.

        If that truly makes me a shyster, then so be it. Don't buy my products.

        My concern about the Warrior "Experts" is that people like you try to undervalue us every day.

        If you thought you were the first person to pose this question/statement this week, then you have not spent much time looking around. By my count, you are about #4 this week, and the week is only half gone.

        So welcome to our community. But if you decide to stay, please stop using blanket statements to discredit an entire community.
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  • Profile picture of the author scrofford
    Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

    Yes I am new here but I am going to point out an a few observations as well as ask a few questions.

    It really is alarming to me how much thee "experts" push their WSOs and products, not services, but the get rich quick products. Do you guys sleep well at night doing this? You have a great community here and all it looks like to me, is you are peddling the same bs as each other and just rewording it.

    So here are a few questions for you:

    Do you actually make money using your tactics or does 99% come from you selling your "product" to people who need of a get rich quick scheme?

    If you were actually making money using your tactics, why not share some statistics about your sites? I am NOT talking about dollar amounts, I am talking conversion rates, daily traffic, position and search volume. Providing such information, is more interesting to me than seeing you say "Buy my book on how I made 10k in 3 days." I firmly believe you are making that 10k in 3 days selling a book to needy folks.

    Now before you attack me, here is a full disclosure:

    I am new to IMing for affiliate sales and list building but have sold service business for 7 figures. I do know a bit about business and realistic numbers. My motives here are not based on any bitterness but I do not like seeing people taken advantage off with promises of riches.

    Please feel free to share your thoughts. If I have hurt anyone's feelings, these are just my opinions and I can be way off the mark.

    Good luck to all.

    Gewdo
    Not a real good start to coming to this forum...I really don't care what you have done and I don't really care how much you know about business. Yes there are some scam WSO's, but it might be smart to kinda get to know who's who here before you start with a crap attitude toward people here.

    By the way, not all WSO's are "get rich quick" products. There is some excellent information on this whole forum, and it's obvious to me that you are just popping off at the mouth without having taken the time to look around and see what is here.

    Like you said...just my opinion but I could be way off the mark
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  • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
    People who are new 'here' (to WF) are looking for info on 'how to make money online.'

    1.) You just said you're 'new'. So you're more likely to stumble upon Jane Doe's book from last week's WSO when browsing. It's a matter of timing. Product available to it's target when target comes looking.

    2.) Each of us product creators, has a different style of writing, explaining and copywriting, so you'll choose someone whose style you identify with and who you resonate with.

    Two people can tell you the exact same thing in two different ways, one of them you may understand, one of them you may not.

    As for giving stats on our sites, no one is going to give away their niches. You can find a gold mine of information on how to reverse engineer our strategies right here, for free, on WF all day long. Our niches are the only thing we really protect. Go find your own, and we'll help you with the rest.

    -Dani
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    • Profile picture of the author Gewdo
      Originally Posted by DanielleS View Post

      As for giving stats on our sites, no one is going to give away their niches. You can find a gold mine of information on how to reverse engineer our strategies right here, for free, on WF all day long. Our niches are the only thing we really protect. Go find your own, and we'll help you with the rest.

      -Dani

      Dani,

      Thank you for your feedback. I would never encourage anyone to provide their niche. More or less encourage providing statistics as benchmarks for progression. If you were to provide such information and started converting heavily at 100 hits a day and I saw true numbers, it would really encourage some people to keep pushing.

      I guess I was discourage on seeing "Make $3,000 on facebook with my WSO." I would rather see something like:

      I did these 3 things, achieved 50 hits a day and started getting 1 affiliate sale a day. These are true hard numbers that people can strive for.

      Have a great day Dani and I hope to see more feedback.

      Regards,
      Gewdo
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      • Profile picture of the author CyberSorcerer
        Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

        More or less encourage providing statistics as benchmarks for progression. If you were to provide such information and started converting heavily at 100 hits a day and I saw true numbers, it would really encourage some people to keep pushing.

        I guess I was discourage on seeing "Make $3,000 on facebook with my WSO."
        While I might agree with your theory, to some extent, you fail to see the BIG problem in your statement above and the biggest TRAP most newbies fall into.

        "Just because someone else accomplished something by doing step 1, step 2, step 3, etc, etc doesn't mean that your results are going to be the same if you just follow what they did."

        When newbies follow what other people do and the results aren't the same that's when all the problems start about how it's not their fault because they did, and followed, EVERYTHING the person told them too. So because "I can't do it" that means there product, service, etc is a scam and their out just to get my money.

        All newbies need to understand something, and I'm in no way taking sides here; because I have my own issues with "SOME" WSO authors, just because someone else did something and it didn't work out for you just proves one thing, "You haven't gotten any results yet."

        At this point you haven't done any research on your own in the niche, keywords, competition, industry, etc. It could be the seller was wrong, you forgot something or left something out by mistake, your traffic is coming from a different source than the sellers, and I could go on and on but you get the point. It could be any number of reasons. The point being is that You Don't Know.

        You mention about sellers having statistics, numbers, reviews, etc. To begin with, how about you show us some of Your proof that content is rehashed. Just like you would like to see proof from the sellers, I would have more belief in your opinion if you came in with something to back up your claims with something other than just heresay which is what your statement is without anything to back it up.

        Above is just my opinion.
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  • Profile picture of the author cashcow
    There's a lot of good WSO's there and a lot of good methods for making money here. Sure, there's some crappy rehashed stuff too, but if you hang around here long enough you get a good feel for who's products will be good.

    If you really feel the way you state about us here, then you don't have to hang around here, you know.

    Lee
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    Gone Fishing
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  • Profile picture of the author bertyounger
    The WSOs are kinda of integral part of the site and the community. And while your observation is not necessarily wrong I'm not sure what type of reaction you were hoping to evoke from the forum? Do you want to initiate a different review of the WSO offerings other than the standard peer review? As in any capitalist venue buyer beware and if you don't know that you certainly shouldn't be involved in IM!
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  • Profile picture of the author ncmedia
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by ncmedia View Post

      I'll challenge any mofo that HAS NOT had a wso for sale, as obviously your objectives are different. Are there any GOOD wso's?
      I haven't had a WSO for sale, but I've bought some excellent ones, Norb.

      However, in all honesty I confess that I do actually have, if not "some sympathy with" at least "some understanding of" some of the OP's points, in spite of believing them not to be tactfully or appropriately made, and agreeing with Imon32red above that Gewdo has apparently got off on the wrong foot.
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    • Profile picture of the author donhx
      Originally Posted by ncmedia View Post

      IMO that there's WAY more CRAP in the wso's than there is GREAT content though, and a noobie has NO clue how to decipher the difference....
      The same for college... you sign up for a useless course from an idiot professor, but you can always get your money back if you fail the course or life.... wait! That's not true. At least here you can learn, and then go away if you don't think you're learning much. If feel you didn't get value for money from a WSO, you can get a refund. That might make this place better than college for getting an education.

      If the OP has problems, then it is time to move on. Disrespecting the people here helps no one.
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    • Profile picture of the author Oxbloom
      Originally Posted by ncmedia View Post

      Call me the black sheep, I agree with OP 100%. This forum is great IF you can avoid the WSO's, straight up, and I'll challenge any mofo that HAS NOT had a wso for sale, as obviously your objectives are different. Are there any GOOD wso's? Sure there's probably boat loads, being around the block for a dozen years, and a part of at LEAST a dozen communities like this, it's FAIR to say IMO that there's WAY more CRAP in the wso's than there is GREAT content though, and a noobie has NO clue how to decipher the difference, as the WSO section is a huge ad inventory and I think many here forget that.


      And now for a cool disappearing trick = watch this post post get zapped in 3, 2, 1...
      There are a ton of valuable WSO's. I've never posted one. And yeah, I've bought some stinkers...in my early days here.

      But now, when I buy one, I inevitably buy one that turns out to be very valuable to me, and instantly applicable to what I'm doing, marketing-wise.

      It's easy to separate the good from the bad.

      Step 1: NEVER buy a new WSO. Never. I Don't care if I know I'm passing it up at 7 dollars when it'll probably be 27 before I'm confident enough to buy it. The 20 bucks it takes to let time pass while reviews come in is more than worth it.

      Step 2: PRACTICALLY IGNORE the sales letter. Read it only to find out what the product is/does. Refuse to fall prey to emotional decision making prompted by sales trickery.

      Step 3: ONLY buy WSO's with a TON of reviews. If it's working for a couple people, it could be a fluke, or a fraud. If it's working for lots of folks, it's a lot more likely to work for you.

      Step 4: ONLY buy WSO's where a TON of those reviews *specifically* say that people are *already employing* the product/strategy, and are seeing the right results. If it's a make-money-fast WSO, only buy it if a ton of people are posting, "I'm making bunches of money with this." If it's a backlinking/SEO strategy, only buy it if a ton of people are posting, "My google rank is rising with this."
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  • Profile picture of the author Gary King
    Hey Gewdo,

    I feel ya... it's VERY easy to look in the WSO section and on the surface see what you're describing.

    There's some REALLY good posts above, especially ccmusicman's... It states the truth.

    Solid WSOs don't always sell as well as more "push-button" offerings. Maybe they are re-hashed, maybe not.

    That said, if you think it's a junk offer, pass it up.

    Realize that many are here to socialize, learn, and build upon their solid businesses, not to rip people off.

    Welcome aboard.

    Gary
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    OFFLINERS! Warning: Unless You Know These Pricing Secrets, You are Leaving THOUSANDS on the Table. Get Your Free Report Now.
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  • Profile picture of the author imon32red
    Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post


    It really is alarming to me how much thee "experts" push their WSOs and products, not services, but the get rich quick products.
    Gewdo
    Who are you referring to when you say "thee experts".

    I rarely buy WSO's and almost never go to that board on the forum and so I really do not know what goes on in there. As far as the more prominent members of the forum that have been here for a while, I have never read a post in the main forum where they tried to push there products. They have a signature, but so does every other member.

    Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

    I am new to IMing for affiliate sales and list building but have sold service business for 7 figures. I do know a bit about business and realistic numbers.
    Gewdo
    If you sold a "service business for 7 figures" I would think that you would have more business sense then to attack the most prominent members of our community shortly after you have joined.

    Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

    Please feel free to share your thoughts.

    Gewdo
    I think you have just started off on the wrong foot. Why would anyone want to help you? Quite honestly, I would be surprised if you make it in this business. To make it you need more than work. You need access to knowledge, and be able to build relationships. For someone just starting you are closing these doors on yourself pretty quick.
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    I'm not selling anything.
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    The WSO forum has been a great source of gems for me. The highest quality PLR offers in the industry come out of the WSO forum... but you have to have a great crap filter to spot them.

    Having a great crap filter is actually a huge advantage in this industry because once you develop it you can glean a lot of gold.

    You are right in that the WSO forum is filled with hucksters selling crap. But it is also filled with amazingly talented, down to earth, honest people delivering better quality than you will find anywhere else in this market.

    In fact it is no different than any other market on earth... it is up to you the consumer to make the wise choice. Vote with your cash. If you and others don't buy crap then people won't pay the $$ to advertise it.

    I have made a lot of money from products I have purchased in the WSO forum.

    But then again I have developed a discerning eye over the years.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

    You have a great community here and all it looks like to me, is you are peddling the same bs as each other and just rewording it.
    Honestly, there is not a whole lot to get.

    John "Zeus66" Schwartz said it earlier: find something that works and do more of it.

    So what works? Um, Frank Kern's been saying it over and over for years: Find out what people want and give it to them.

    So how do you find out what people want? Well, I've always said to just go to forums and look at the active threads.

    So let's break that down.

    - Look at the popular subjects on a forum
    - Write a report about those subjects
    - Go sell it to the people on that forum
    - Do more of that for continued success

    There are only so many ways you can say that.

    And do you know what the single most popular subject on this forum is?

    The fastest way to make a lot of money.

    The WSO forum is full of those reports because that is what people want, so the WSO authors provide it, and the people buy it.

    Rinse and repeat.

    This plan is given over and over and over again in one product after another. And the people giving it will never run out of customers.

    Why are you surprised at this?

    Go to the grocery store. Look at the good, wholesome food off in the produce section. Look at the deli counter. The butcher's area. The fresh fish. The dairy section. See how many people are in these areas, which are packed with healthy food?

    Now how many people are down the aisles with the Hot Pockets and Eggos? Frozen pizzas? Hamburger Helper? Frosted Flakes? Oreos?

    How much store space is devoted to each of these things, respectively?

    Next time you buy groceries, take a good look at what you bought. Go over your receipt. How much money did you spend on each of these things? How much nutrition is in them? How much space do they take up?

    Human beings treat their minds much the same way they do their bodies. They throw crap into them, all day long, then wonder why they don't work well. But the companies selling that crap keep right on selling it, because people keep right on buying it, and even after flushing their budget down the grocery toilet with this crap... they have the audacity to complain about how they just can't seem to drop this weight.

    Yes, there are many info-product creators who are selling you digital Oreos and Hot Pockets. And no, those things are not good for you and can hardly even be called "food." But there are also fresh fruits and vegetables, if you look for them and learn to select the best ones, and wholesome meat and fish to go with it. Milk, cheese, eggs, any number of things to form the basis of a healthy diet for your IM career.

    But nobody will make you choose them, and the store is going to wave Doritos and Hostess Fruit Pies at you the whole time you're shopping. The discipline to walk past it for the healthier fare is your job.
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    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post


      Go to the grocery store. Look at the good, wholesome food off in the produce section. Look at the deli counter. The butcher's area. The fresh fish. The dairy section. See how many people are in these areas, which are packed with healthy food?

      Now how many people are down the aisles with the Hot Pockets and Eggos? Frozen pizzas? Hamburger Helper? Frosted Flakes? Oreos?

      How much store space is devoted to each of these things, respectively?
      Hot pockets...mmmmmmm.

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      "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
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    • Profile picture of the author LeeLee
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      <snip>Yes, there are many info-product creators who are selling you digital Oreos and Hot Pockets. <snip>
      Digital Oreos...snort
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    • Profile picture of the author SeanyG
      To back this up I saw a post that Seth Godin made recently that said:

      "The market has demands. Usually these demands are different than what they need. What overweight people need are nutrition plans and work out routines. What they demand (spend their money on) is comfort (junk food) and convenience (junk food and stuff that makes their lives easier).

      If you try to see nutrition plans theres a good chance that you won't make any money. If you sell comfort or convenience, what they demand, sales will roll in!"


      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      Honestly, there is not a whole lot to get.

      John "Zeus66" Schwartz said it earlier: find something that works and do more of it.

      So what works? Um, Frank Kern's been saying it over and over for years: Find out what people want and give it to them.

      So how do you find out what people want? Well, I've always said to just go to forums and look at the active threads.

      So let's break that down.

      - Look at the popular subjects on a forum
      - Write a report about those subjects
      - Go sell it to the people on that forum
      - Do more of that for continued success

      There are only so many ways you can say that.

      And do you know what the single most popular subject on this forum is?

      The fastest way to make a lot of money.

      The WSO forum is full of those reports because that is what people want, so the WSO authors provide it, and the people buy it.

      Rinse and repeat.

      This plan is given over and over and over again in one product after another. And the people giving it will never run out of customers.

      Why are you surprised at this?

      Go to the grocery store. Look at the good, wholesome food off in the produce section. Look at the deli counter. The butcher's area. The fresh fish. The dairy section. See how many people are in these areas, which are packed with healthy food?

      Now how many people are down the aisles with the Hot Pockets and Eggos? Frozen pizzas? Hamburger Helper? Frosted Flakes? Oreos?

      How much store space is devoted to each of these things, respectively?

      Next time you buy groceries, take a good look at what you bought. Go over your receipt. How much money did you spend on each of these things? How much nutrition is in them? How much space do they take up?

      Human beings treat their minds much the same way they do their bodies. They throw crap into them, all day long, then wonder why they don't work well. But the companies selling that crap keep right on selling it, because people keep right on buying it, and even after flushing their budget down the grocery toilet with this crap... they have the audacity to complain about how they just can't seem to drop this weight.

      Yes, there are many info-product creators who are selling you digital Oreos and Hot Pockets. And no, those things are not good for you and can hardly even be called "food." But there are also fresh fruits and vegetables, if you look for them and learn to select the best ones, and wholesome meat and fish to go with it. Milk, cheese, eggs, any number of things to form the basis of a healthy diet for your IM career.

      But nobody will make you choose them, and the store is going to wave Doritos and Hostess Fruit Pies at you the whole time you're shopping. The discipline to walk past it for the healthier fare is your job.
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  • Profile picture of the author ncmedia
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by ncmedia View Post

      The builders, owners, investors, and other shoppers don't waive doritos in your face at any supermarket I go to.
      Yes they do. Why do you think the Doritos are all over the endcap just inside the entrace with a big sale sign on them? Go into your local supermarket on Super Bowl weekend and tell me they don't wave it in your face.

      you guys should have at least a transparent non-partisan view of your monetization strategy not defend it to no end.
      Some of us think that we're talking about our business, not just a strategy. Our morals and ethics and philosophies are inextricably bound up in it, and when you criticise what you see as a bad strategy, you're actually challenging our integrity as business owners.
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      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by ncmedia View Post

      Noobies have NO business in there imo, and should perhaps even be limited to those with at least xxx posts so they KNOW how to be a smart shopper vs. inviting them into a trap.

      Shouldn't we instead give everyone a test and make sure their IQ is up to snuff before offering them access.

      Shouldn't we do personality testing to figure out if they will ever follow through on anything they are taught.

      Shouldn't we require high school transcripts to make sure that they have at least the minimal amount of smarts to effectively run their own businesses. Those poor math grades might prove telling.


      One of the richest guys I know in my home town dropped out of school in the 8th grade. His lack of education did not stop him from eventually owning 50% of all commercial real estate and a sliding scale of the gross profits of any business renting his properties in my home town.

      I had three years experience making a decent living online, before I ever joined the WF. Should I have been prohibited from accessing the WSO forum when I was a WF noobie?


      In your opinion, it would seem that you believe you are smarter than many, and maybe your are. But are you smart enough to know how to make these buying restrictions fair to everyone who wants to buy there?
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    It really is alarming to me how much thee "experts" push their WSOs and products, not services, but the get rich quick products. Do you guys sleep well at night doing this? You have a great community here and all it looks like to me, is you are peddling the same bs as each other and just rewording it.
    <sarcasm> I hadn't noticed </sarcasm>

    +1 to NCMedia's comments.

    John "Zeus66" Schwartz said it earlier: find something that works and do more of it.
    If you are new and don't know what works ???

    Expecting this thread to self destruct in three... two...
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    I'm all about that bass.

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  • Profile picture of the author Rsberg
    Even though I agree with some of your points (to some degree) I would caution you to pick your words differently.

    As someone new to this forum with less than 20 posts to your reputation I don't think it's very smart to come in here and blindly target anyone, especially those that offer WSO's. As many others have said there are not only a lot of good WSO's that offer some very good info but there is also a level of responsibility that lies with the buyer. If you feel that all WSO's arent worth looking at because they are "rehashed" then stay out of the WSO section.

    You may be experienced in IM and other forums but since you are new here I would venture to say that you'd be much better off learning how things work around here and getting to know people instead of blasting insults.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fernando Veloso
    Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

    I am new to IMing for affiliate sales and list building but have sold service business for 7 figures. I do know a bit about business and realistic numbers. My motives here are not based on any bitterness but I do not like seeing people taken advantage off with promises of riches.
    You can sell a 50K business to a new owner and he could get it bankrupt in 3 weeks.

    ...Or you can sell a business for 50 bucks and the new owner makes 1 million first year.

    You should know better then your post.

    For real.
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    People make good money selling to the rich. But the rich got rich selling to the masses.
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  • Profile picture of the author pexxy
    Banned
    Though I have just joined this forum but I have heard mixed words on WSOs on other forums. Some even go on to call these WSOs as crappy and rehashed while I have also read about the very brilliant WSOs.

    I guess it all depends upon the reputation of the person authoring the WSO. If, I am to buy a WSO, I would first look for the owner's reputation. After all there are always good and bad so I am ready to face some really bad WSO along with some excellent ones.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Dolan
    Hey there,

    Its certainly a thought provoking post.

    I think the majority 80% of the WSO's are decent product, there is a small % of poorly put together (often freely available) ...

    About the stats etc. Sure many do put the stats, but many don't.

    Having said that 80% give you a money back option. So you can usually test run something.

    Even big companies don't always substantiate their claims.

    But I think there is something implied in your comments that might make people think you are painting WSO marketers with the brush that belongs for those who don't hang around here very long. Warriors tend not to appreciate duff offers, so people who post silly claims don't last long in here.

    Just 0.01c
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    You have good reason to be concerned...

    The way earnings claims are used in the WSO ads are often illegal.

    Here is a quote from the ftc.gov website:

    “Earn $2,000 a month.” If an ad claims buyers can make a certain amount of money, the law says the promoter must give the number and percentage of previous purchasers who earned the income. If an earnings claim is there, but the additional information isn’t, ask for more information: the business opportunity seller may be violating the law. “$50K/yr” “Vending route nets $1,700/wk”

    INTERNET BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY MARKETER SETTLES FTC CHARGES UNSUBSTANTIATED EARNINGS CLAIMS VIOLATED FEDERAL LAW

    business.ftc.gov Ads for Business Opportunities: How to Detect Deception

    Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

    Dani,

    Thank you for your feedback. I would never encourage anyone to provide their niche. More or less encourage providing statistics as benchmarks for progression. If you were to provide such information and started converting heavily at 100 hits a day and I saw true numbers, it would really encourage some people to keep pushing.

    I guess I was discourage on seeing "Make $3,000 on facebook with my WSO." I would rather see something like:

    I did these 3 things, achieved 50 hits a day and started getting 1 affiliate sale a day. These are true hard numbers that people can strive for.

    Have a great day Dani and I hope to see more feedback.

    Regards,
    Gewdo
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by Josh Anderson View Post

      You have good reason to be concerned...

      The way earnings claims are used in the WSO ads are often illegal.

      Here is a quote from the ftc.gov website:

      “Earn $2,000 a month.” If an ad claims buyers can make a certain amount of money, the law says the promoter must give the number and percentage of previous purchasers who earned the income. If an earnings claim is there, but the additional information isn’t, ask for more information: the business opportunity seller may be violating the law. “$50K/yr” “Vending route nets $1,700/wk”

      INTERNET BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY MARKETER SETTLES FTC CHARGES UNSUBSTANTIATED EARNINGS CLAIMS VIOLATED FEDERAL LAW

      business.ftc.gov Ads for Business Opportunities: How to Detect Deception
      ^^^^^
      This is one of those posts that makes me wish there was a way to thank it multiple times.

      Good point, Josh. One that I've made before. But a lot of people seemed either ignorant of or indifferent to the law. Since I'm not running those ads or this site, I stopped pi$*ing up that rope.
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      • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
        Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

        I've made that point before, Josh. A lot of people seemed either ignorant of or indifferent to the law. Since I'm not running those ads or this site, I stopped pi$*ing up that rope.
        I don't think I have ever purchased a WSO that has used an earnings claim in its headline...

        The main reason though is because 99% offer no value to me and most are based on limited experience (like now that I have made my first $300 in a month I can claim that everyone else can and write an ebook about it) or flat out false claims.

        Its the WSO offers that have no earnings claims that have made me a pile of cash. But then again I stick mostly to the quality PLR offers that pertain to teaching actual skills and developing talents and not gimmicks or providing resources such as graphic designs, video, or content that can be leveraged on the web.

        You can pretty much guarantee that any earnings claim you see in the WSO forum is not properly documented as to comply with US law even if the publisher is US based.

        But again... I use my own built in crap filter which is much better than our government's ridiculous ways.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
        Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

        I've made that point before, Josh. A lot of people seemed either ignorant of or indifferent to the law. Since I'm not running those ads or this site, I stopped pi$*ing up that rope.
        Yeah, you know I have a huge problem with a non elected government entity telling people what they can and can't say.

        Example:

        Say I devise a system to make 2,000 bucks or whatever.

        I haven't sold it yet but am about to..

        So I have no evidence that it works for others - just myself.


        Do I then provide proof? How much proof? Clickbank earnings? Paypal earnings?

        Those can be faked.

        Do I need to hire a 3rd party investigator to verify my claims? Do they reach inside my bank and look at my documents?

        But since I "hired them" - they could easily fudge the numbers as well.


        But what if I made that 2,000 bucks through another method and just claim this new method made it?

        How will the FTC know? Will they look at the method? What if it's through SEO - will they watch me while they build the links?

        There is no real way to completely and honestly verify income claims, period.

        Just one more way for a bureaucratic, nonelect government entity (who's sole goal is to survive and keep the top people employed), to tell me what I can and can't say. And if they don't like what I say, they can sue me till I'm broke.


        Rob
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        • Profile picture of the author Lance K
          Rob,

          I can't argue against your laissez faire attitude. I agree...less government is the best government.

          Was just pointing out what the law is and that a certain agency could have a field day with a lot of WSO sellers if they wanted to.

          Problem is that those WSO sellers aren't big enough fish. Like you said, the FTC's job is to survive. So until they're sure there at least 2 commas and a lot of zeros involved, some things aren't worth the time. At least, the people making wild income claims better hope that's the case.

          Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

          Yeah, you know I have a huge problem with a non elected government entity telling people what they can and can't say.

          Example:

          Say I devise a system to make 2,000 bucks or whatever.

          I haven't sold it yet but am about to..

          So I have no evidence that it works for others - just myself.


          Do I then provide proof? How much proof? Clickbank earnings? Paypal earnings?

          Those can be faked.

          Do I need to hire a 3rd party investigator to verify my claims? Do they reach inside my bank and look at my documents?

          But since I "hired them" - they could easily fudge the numbers as well.


          But what if I made that 2,000 bucks through another method and just claim this new method made it?

          How will the FTC know? Will they look at the method? What if it's through SEO - will they watch me while they build the links?

          There is no real way to completely and honestly verify income claims, period.

          Just one more way for a bureaucratic, nonelect government entity (who's sole goal is to survive and keep the top people employed), to tell me what I can and can't say. And if they don't like what I say, they can sue me till I'm broke.


          Rob
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          "You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they want."
          ~ Zig Ziglar
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

          Yeah, you know I have a huge problem with a non elected government entity telling people what they can and can't say.
          You can't claim to know what you don't know, and you can't lie about what you do.

          Problem?

          Say I devise a system to make 2,000 bucks or whatever.
          Then the system works for you. You can say it worked for you. What you cannot do is say that it works for other people, because you do not know that.

          But what if I made that 2,000 bucks through another method and just claim this new method made it?
          Then you cannot say it works for you. That's a lie.

          Complaining that the FTC can't prove this stuff is really kind of irrelevant. Either you are going to be honest, or you are not. The FTC says you have to be honest, and if they catch you lying - which, you're right, they may not - you will suffer dramatically for it.

          The thing with the FTC is that it's not bound by "innocent until proven guilty" the way criminal courts are. There's a certain presumption of guilt when you are being investigated, and you're required to prove the reasonable likelihood of innocence.

          Copyright, trademark, and patent cases are much the same; these civil matters are judged by a preponderance of the evidence, and they don't even get opened until the side that says you're guilty thinks they've got that and you haven't. The plaintiff walks into court with a stack of evidence, and you'd better make a bigger stack or you're screwed.
          Signature
          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
            I completely agree with you.

            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            Y

            The thing with the FTC is that it's not bound by "innocent until proven guilty" the way criminal courts are. There's a certain presumption of guilt when you are being investigated, and you're required to prove the reasonable likelihood of innocence.
            That's actually what I was trying to say.


            FTC can, at will, do whatever it wants, irregardless of the facts. The fact may be, I'm honest. I didn't lie in my marketing. But they didn't like what I said - so they sue me for it.

            I can have "proof" that backs up my case. But that won't matter - if they are determined to shut me down, they will do it. They answer to no one. They assume guilty instead of innocent.

            Rob
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

              I can have "proof" that backs up my case. But that won't matter - if they are determined to shut me down, they will do it. They answer to no one. They assume guilty instead of innocent.
              This is because ideally, they don't investigate the innocent. If you're not getting complaints, they don't give a crap what you do. You can lie your arse off all day long, and if nobody ever complains, the FTC will never do a damn thing about it. Thus the wide array of flogs on the internet, with no real probability of ever being shut down.

              The assumption is that people will complain a little about every business, even the legitimate ones. But an illegitimate business will get a lot of complaints. And in general, this is true.

              The system isn't perfect, and it does indeed have its flaws. But there are no less-flawed alternatives that actually work. Not everything can be perfect. Sometimes you must accept flawed solutions because they're the best ones you have.
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              "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    The biggest problems with WSO's are the inflated and false claims. Seriously, proof not required, just make up a sales number and roll with it. Keep it reasonable and most people aren't going to question it.

    There is no regulation or quality control.

    It's the wild west and the crap products hurts the reputation of the forum and good products.

    Even the Super Fat Sucker 3000 has a disclaimer stating that results aren't typical. Not so with your typical WSO. Guaranteed To Make You 1k Every Day!
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  • Profile picture of the author Gewdo
    Thank you all for the great feedback. Clearly I have touched a sore spot for some and others look like they may agree with some points. It was not my intentions to "attack" any one group on the forums. My intentions were to spark the debate as well as encourage change.

    Changes that I believe can encourage confidence in WSO purchases:
    1. A true reputation system implemented rather then a thread that ends up 100 pages long with "I just bought it and waiting on my download key."
    a.This would allow a potential purchaser to see positive and negative reviews of the product offering related to that form post.
    b. Refund request ratings can be offered through this feature, which would allow others to see how the Author handles their customer service.

    2. Limit access to the WSO offering forum as one of the participants in the discussion has recommended.

    3. Share more information about your goals as well as site performance statistics.

    I do understand ALOT hinges on the dedication of the person reading the WSO.

    On a personal note, if I came off abrasive I apologize. I am a cut and dry type of person and like to get to the point.

    Best Regards,
    Gewdo
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  • Profile picture of the author King Shiloh
    Banned
    OP,

    I think you have to be concerned about yourself first. Nobody tries to remove the dust from another person's eye when he has a log of wood in his eyes.

    Those you call the warrior experts have already become experts so it's now left for you to become an expert in your own field and way. Then, when you must have become an expert, you can go ahead and teach others warrior "experts" how to be a better expert.

    Have you tested those products that you call BS? The problem with some poor people is that they hate the rich without even thinking of how to humble themselves in order to learn how to climb the ladder to riches.

    Well, I'm not saying that you're poor but this is a public environment where you have to listen as twice as you speak and you have to be very sure of what you speak before you say it.

    I guess you might be coming from one of those sites that say, "Warrior Forum Sucks" but why not come up with facts and figures to back up your claims other than showing how concerned you are about who you don't know anything about.

    Honestly, I'm concerned about your stay in this forum.

    BTW, I'm so glad that I'm not a warrior "expert". So, I'm free from your expert bashing.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    1. A true reputation system implemented rather then a thread that ends up 100 pages long with "I just bought it and waiting on my download key."
    a.This would allow a potential purchaser to see positive and negative reviews of the product offering related to that form post.
    b. Refund request ratings can be offered through this feature, which would allow others to see how the Author handles their customer service.

    2. Limit access to the WSO offering forum as one of the participants in the discussion has recommended.

    3. Share more information about your goals as well as site performance statistics.
    The problem with all of that is the WF doesn't actually sell anything. The WSO forum is a paid advertising forum. Simple as that.
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    • Profile picture of the author Gewdo
      Originally Posted by jasonmorgan View Post

      The problem with all of that is the WF doesn't actually sell anything. The WSO forum is a paid advertising forum. Simple as that.
      Yes you are correct. I am sure alot of us know what DP Forums are though. They have built a reputation system for their advertising section. Something similar could easily be integrated here.

      Just a thought.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
        Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

        Yes you are correct. I am sure alot of us know what DP Forums are though. They have built a reputation system for their advertising section. Something similar could easily be integrated here.

        Just a thought.
        But if you know Allen, you'll know that he hates rules and having more than he needs.

        BTW - your suggestions are not new. They are brought up probably once a week. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

        Not bashing you - but a lot of people who have been here a while are sick of seeing these kinds of "bad IM/WSO/GURU/SCAM/" threads.

        Rob
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      • Profile picture of the author Cataclysm1987
        Guys watch out for my next WSO...

        ...I'm gonna call it, button pusher millionaire.

        IF MY DEAD GRANDMA MADE $87,000,239.34 in 3 SECONDS, WHY CAN'T YOU USING THIS SUPER SECRET SOFTWARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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        No signature here today!

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    • Profile picture of the author King Shiloh
      Banned
      Originally Posted by jasonmorgan View Post

      The problem with all of that is the WF doesn't actually sell anything. The WSO forum is a paid advertising forum. Simple as that.
      He's not aware of that and he doesn't want to be aware of that. I think he has to join the war room first.

      Maybe he's on a bring-warrior-forum-down mission.
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      • Profile picture of the author Gewdo
        Originally Posted by King Shiloh View Post

        He's not aware of that and he doesn't want to be aware of that. I think he has to join the war room first.

        Maybe he's on a bring-warrior-forum-down mission.
        No not at all. I am on a make warrior forum even better mission. To encourage more growth and help people become better.

        Some have brought great feedback to this conversation, both positive and negative.

        Have a great day.

        Gewdo
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
          Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

          No not at all. I am on a make warrior forum even better mission. To encourage more growth and help people become better.

          Some have brought great feedback to this conversation, both positive and negative.

          Have a great day.

          Gewdo
          Thanks for the concern Gewdo, but I think we're doing just fine.



          ~Michael
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          • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
            Gewdo,

            Perhaps I took too harsh a view of your original post and you were not intending to pretty much bash all WSO sellers. As someone else said, there are those who regularly come in and do so and some of us get tired of all WSO creators being lumped into the same category.

            I completely agree that it would be lovely to see more real stats but that really is up to the buyers. If we all stopped buying from the ones that have copy filled with hype and empty promises, then you'd see the creators turning away from that copy.

            Right or wrong, that is the copy that actually sells. So unfortunately, many think they have to do the same in order to have a successful WSO. Those of us that don't use the "make $xxxxx in 3 days" formula simply don't see the sales that they do, unless we are one of the ones with a huge following already.

            Sadly, overall, the buyers want and look for the get rich quick offers, not the meat and potatoes basics that some of us teach. I'm not condoning selling crap but it's time to hold the buyers accountable, too, and not just the sellers.

            Tina
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

              Those of us that don't use the "make in 3 days" formula simply don't see the sales that they do, unless we are one of the ones with a huge following already.
              I saw a cartoon once in a book titled Poodles From Hell where a series of future developments were predicted.

              One of them was captioned "Gullibility will become a severe social problem."

              It depicted a line of people leading around the block to a door, and a sign over that door said "HUGE BAGS OF CASH $19.95"

              I think of that cartoon every time I look in the WSO forum.
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              "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

          No not at all. I am on a make warrior forum even better mission. To encourage more growth and help people become better.

          Gewdo
          I see nothing wrong with this statement and I would disagree that we are doing just fine. No one can deny theres alot of scamming and garbage in IM and that can't be defined as fine. HOWEVER its really only half the equation. People always complain about the get rich fluff and scams but guess how they know they are scams and fluff? BECAUSE THEY BUY THEM and then predictably they don't work.

          Which means like it or not the marketing works because the market wants it. Its voted for. Your real mission should be to change that.

          So do you REALLY want to start a revolution?

          Find the gems in the WSO section that are not flourishing because they don't use hype. Point other people to them. sing their praise. Make it easier for people to market good quality stuff because you can curse the darkness all you want but the light will only become popular when people can eat selling it.

          When I see a WSO with an offer that advocates real work for real results that has pages upon pages of positive responses I'll be impressed. Until then all the talk is just not achieving anything real.

          I and a lot of people can offer incredibly WSos that can show you how to build real sustainable businesses with 6 months of solid work and some investments but they won't get any play compared to the push button and get rich products that the market is clamoring for. Any mission for growth begins with a mission for the buyers to grow up. Its your money and desires that fuels what sells.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Hi Gewdo,

    First, we already have a feedback system in the form of comments left in the WSO threds. It's not perfect, but it actually works pretty well. Rating systems have been mentioned ad nauseum and they are not going to happen (for a lot of reasons). Personally, I don't give two flying flips what any other forum has or does because I hang out here. Also, your surely not suggesting those ratings can't be gamed, are you?

    Second, why would somebody else's stats matter? Why would their goals matter? Why should they sell the way YOU want them to sell? The problem with giving stats is that MOST buyers will see them as another claim of the effectiveness of the technique being sold. So, if the seller says "I get 100 hits a day, and 4% of them buy", then the WSO buyer will cry foul when they only get 5 hit a day...EVEN IF the stats have NOTHING to do with a product claim.

    Anyway, I'm sure you mean well, and you raise some interesting points, but give it time and I think you will see that what the WF currently has in place works fairly well.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Rating systems have been mentioned ad nauseum and they are not going to happen
      We are already using post count, join date, and thanks count as a rating system. If you've been here a long time, made a lot of posts, and been thanked a lot... that's considered a high rating.

      And honestly, it's a more accurate system than some five-star setup, even though it's really not very accurate at all.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        We are already using post count, join date, and thanks count as a rating system. If you've been here a long time, made a lot of posts, and been thanked a lot... that's considered a high rating.

        And honestly, it's a more accurate system than some five-star setup, even though it's really not very accurate at all.

        And every thread, even those in the Warrior Special Offers have the five-star setup that most people do not even know is there.
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
          Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

          You have been a part of this community for 10 whole days and you already think we're all a bunch of shysters?

          First of all, not all the offers here are "get rich quick" stuff. Plenty of us sell products that teach the basics of real business. Perhaps you are simply not looking in the right places?

          Second, unless you've bought any of these products, how on earth can you say they are simply reworded or that the creators are not providing the statistics you mention within the products?

          Sometimes we see only what we want to see, I guess.

          Tina
          Tina, Gewdo hasn't been around long enough to know who the real experts are. And diplomacy obviously isn't his strong point. But I can see where he might form such an impression.

          Gewdo, there are a lot of real experts in the WSO forum.

          There are also some serious rocket scientists operating in there - "rocket science" being the practice of moving things by forcing a high volume of hot air through a small opening.

          As you spend more time here, it will be easier to tell who is who...

          Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

          Thank you for your feedback. I was very clear of my position and how long I have been part of the community. I have in fact bought 3 Ebooks as well as one really good helpful wordpress plugin.

          The 3 ebooks were just rehashed knowledge of what is already on the forums and that is the part that is sticking out to me. I did not call all of you "shysters." It was my goal to get more people on track with:
          If you were actually making money using your tactics, why not share some statistics about your sites? I am NOT talking about dollar amounts, I am talking conversion rates, daily traffic, position and search volume. Providing such information, is more interesting to me than seeing you say "Buy my book on how I made 10k in 3 days."

          Best Regards,
          Gewdo
          If you don't believe the income claims, why should you believe the other statistics? They are just as easy to make up, and often the 'proof' is very easy to fake.

          Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

          Dani,

          Thank you for your feedback. I would never encourage anyone to provide their niche. More or less encourage providing statistics as benchmarks for progression. If you were to provide such information and started converting heavily at 100 hits a day and I saw true numbers, it would really encourage some people to keep pushing.

          I guess I was discourage on seeing "Make $3,000 on facebook with my WSO." I would rather see something like:

          I did these 3 things, achieved 50 hits a day and started getting 1 affiliate sale a day. These are true hard numbers that people can strive for.

          Have a great day Dani and I hope to see more feedback.

          Regards,
          Gewdo
          Allen Says (the forum owner) has a post in the War Room about 'selling to the herd mind'. Two of the points he makes are "people buy the dream" and sometimes get as much thrill from the buy as from the dream, leading to "people buy more dreams"...

          Serial buyers of GRQ, easy-button shiny objects are getting exactly what they are buying - more dreams.

          Someone a little more cynical could make the argument that buying the dreams in the WSO section is a good thing, because it saves the buyers of dreams money...
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    The WSO is a marketplace. Like any marketplace, there will be high quality products and low quality products. There will be smart business people and ... not so smart business people.

    It doesn't matter if the marketplace is online or offline, the above holds true everywhere. So what's the point of your post? Are you going to save the world from inferior goods and decided to start with the Warrior Forum?

    Do you walk into physical stores and start complaining to all the customers, employees, and the store owner that some of the products being sold aren't good? Or do you make value judgments for yourself and buy what you think is a good value and disregard that which, to you, it seems isn't a good value and let each customer make their own value judgments?

    Some of the stuff you think is not a good value can be a great value to others. Do you think your perception of reality is the only valid perception?

    Sorry if this sounds harsh, but people like you show up here all the time. You complain about some self-perceived problem as if your observations are going to "fix" the forum and everyone in it, then you disappear.

    And no, I'm not defending the forum because I sell in the WSO forum. I don't sell get rich quick products. I'm defending the forum because an adult can and should make their own value judgments when it comes to their own discretionary spending. And IF they make a mistake, most of the sellers offer refunds and you don't have to buy from any that don't.

    I'll be looking forward to seeing if YOU deliver any value to this forum in the future.
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    • Profile picture of the author Gewdo
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Some of the stuff you think is not a good value can be a great value to others. Do you think your perception of reality is the only valid perception?
      No not at all. I do believe we should raise our standards of the quality of all products though. Prime example: China Dry wall that was used in many houses during the latest construction boom. This should have never happened and would not have happened if proper testing was done.

      So in turn, if we properly police the BS WSO that will improve the IM industry as well as make WF stand out from other IM sites. Would you rather have a higher conversion rate with a lower effort or just keep turning and burning junk out with a lower conversion rate? Personally I would like to have a lower effort with a higher conversion rate of success.

      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Sorry if this sounds harsh, but people like you show up here all the time. You complain about some self-perceived problem as if your observations are going to "fix" the forum and everyone in it, then you disappear.
      It is not harsh at all. I can take criticism pretty well and enjoy the feedback. I really won't be going any where as I have learned a lot form this very thread.

      Best Regards,
      Gewdo
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      • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
        Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

        So in turn, if we properly police the BS WSO that will improve the IM industry as well as make WF stand out from other IM sites. Would you rather have a higher conversion rate with a lower effort or just keep turning and burning junk out with a lower conversion rate? Personally I would like to have a lower effort with a higher conversion rate of success.
        I have to ask, are you a capitalist?

        The market will police the WSO forum. Bad reviews, bad testimonials, will keep it clean.


        Let me tell you this - there was a few WSO threads that seemed fishy about a week ago - it didn't take long before these "two people" where one and the same person and they were outright scamming the WF.

        The market quickly figured it out and they are now banned.


        Rob
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        • Profile picture of the author Gewdo
          Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

          I have to ask, are you a capitalist?

          Very much so. BUT a capitalist does not have to take advantage of people to earn a buck.

          On your previous post, yes I do know that I am not the first person to talk about these points. This thread was started with my opinions and posting them in another thread would just seem like I was high jacking the thread.

          I do have to say that I am shocked I was not personally attacked more through this thread.


          Best Regards,
          Gewdo
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          • Profile picture of the author tpw
            Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

            I do have to say that I am shocked I was not personally attacked more through this thread.

            So are you saying that you were trolling for a fire fight?

            LOL

            Most of the people having this convo with you are experienced veterans. We know that once someone starts attacking you personally, this thread will be deleted.

            We also know that trolls get banned on a regular basis.

            So you might want to decide before going forward: Are you a troll? Or, are you looking to liven the discussions.



            Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

            Yes you are correct. I am sure alot of us know what DP Forums are though. They have built a reputation system for their advertising section. Something similar could easily be integrated here.

            Just a thought.
            As Michael said, these things can be as easily gamed as the Google Search Algorithm.


            Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

            My intentions were to spark the debate as well as encourage change.

            Here is an analogy for you -- analogy only.

            If I walked into your home and told you that putting the glasses in this cabinet instead would make your home more efficient, and if you moved your sofa to this corner, it would enable more people to feel at home in your house, how would you react to that?

            Or a little more personal, suppose I told you that your kids were rotten brats and that you need to do this to fix them, how would you react to that?

            You have been here at the WF for less than one month, but you know better than those who have been running this forum since 1998 how to make this forum better?

            And honestly, you cannot honestly be suggesting that DP is better are you? More credible?

            (If you answer yes to either of those questions, I will fall out of my chair laughing.)

            The powers-that-be at the WF have heard all of your suggestions "to improve the WF" before.

            And as has been clearly proven in thread-after-thread of this type, what seems on the surface to be a good idea, usually has unintended negative consequences as a result.

            The management here is very wise not to simply react, but rather to take action only once an idea has been fully explored.

            You are offering nothing new, except for your opinion that you are only trying to help... But even that is not new, it is only something new from your keyboard.
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            • Profile picture of the author Gewdo
              Originally Posted by tpw View Post

              So are you saying that you were trolling for a fire fight?

              LOL
              Nope not one bit. Was actually complimenting the forum on not just flaming or attacking me. As we have all seen before on many forums.

              Originally Posted by tpw View Post

              Here is an analogy for you -- analogy only.

              If I walked into your home and told you that putting the glasses in this cabinet instead would make your home more efficient, and if you moved your sofa to this corner, it would enable more people to feel at home in your house, how would you react to that?
              I would take the suggestion and decide if its the best thing for me at that time. Also I would thank you for your time and well thought out comments.

              Originally Posted by tpw View Post

              You have been here at the WF for less than one month, but you know better than those who have been running this forum since 1998 how to make this forum better?
              I never claimed that I knew better than anyone. I simply stated my opinions as I saw them.

              Originally Posted by tpw View Post

              And honestly, you cannot honestly be suggesting that DP is better are you? More credible?
              Never suggested that once. What I suggested is one feature that they had that could improve upon my suggestions. It would take some work to refine it for this forum, but is a start. Just like IM changes take time to see the results.

              Originally Posted by tpw View Post

              And as has been clearly proven in thread-after-thread of this type, what seems on the surface to be a good idea, usually has unintended negative consequences as a result.
              That I understand, but that is not my intentions and I will be here for a long time as there are alot of very useful information on the forums. I stopped going into WSOs and actually look at the main internet marketing forum as that works best for me. I find people I like and views I agree with then research their other posts.

              Originally Posted by tpw View Post

              You are offering nothing new, except for your opinion that you are only trying to help... But even that is not new, it is only something new from your keyboard.
              Just like everything else. Change for the good or bad is never easy to come by. Time will only show that I am here for the good and not here to hurt WF or anyone here.

              Best Regards,
              Gewdo
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              • Profile picture of the author James Clark
                To the Op,

                First of all, “get rich quick scheme” is a niche and there are plenty of people who fall for stuff like that. If you are not one of them don’t worry too much about it. In the real world you have finance companies that charge outrageous interest on car loans.

                Does that mean you have to use them? I have built my business from what I learned right here on the Warrior Forum.

                However, you should have some streets smarts and common sense. The best advice I give you is don't grumble and stay but grumble and be on your merry way.
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              • Profile picture of the author tpw
                Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

                Change for the good or bad is never easy to come by. Time will only show that I am here for the good and not here to hurt WF or anyone here.

                All change is never easy to come by.

                And not all change is good.

                Change for the sake of change is government work. LOL

                While you are telling Allen how to improve the forum, be sure to tell him I want to be able to offer more Thanks to people who deserve it. 25 Thank You's a day, is never enough.

                With a quarter million registered members, and some of the smartest people I know coming around here, I have to create more posts (which takes more server space) just to say Thanks to people who make my day.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        The only people that don't benefit from the products I sell are people who don't understand follow-through and taking action.

        I don't screw them; they screw themselves.

        So welcome to our community. But if you decide to stay, please stop using blanket statements to discredit an entire community.
        That deserved to be repeated.

        Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

        No not at all. I do believe we should raise our standards of the quality of all products though.
        Gewdo, that's a nice thought, but it's not going anywhere. First of all, there is no "we" in the context you use it. We are individual entities, and each will set their own quality standards based on their own perception.

        The marketers in my network, and myself, all have high standards (that's why they ARE in my network in the first place), but we each base those standards on our own perception.

        If there were an ultimate measure of quality, one person's product may be a 10 in quality, while another person's is a 6 in quality ... but both parties may have put forth their best effort into the creation of their product, and both products are as high in quality as the creator is capable of producing. The difference is that one person just doesn't have the same understanding of what quality is when compared to the other person.

        The point is, those who care are already making products as good as their understanding of quality will allow; and those who don't care ... don't care! Your plea is meaningless to them. You can't fix other people, we can only improve ourselves.
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  • Profile picture of the author tonydbaker
    I've bought good and I've bought bad.... and in each and every WSO, I've learned something.

    Even if you buy something that stinks... you bought... what does that teach you? What ad copy, price point, guarantee, etc made you want so bad to buy? Now... take that info.. create a product that doesn't stink and watch your sales skyrocket.

    This is an internet marketing forum... buying and selling of internet marketing products and services is part of the learning experience. If you want to go to an SEO forum where people just talk about things they've tried, then I'm sure there are many. You can do seo without buying and selling, whereas Internet Marketing in the case of Warriors IS about buying and selling.

    Even though my current ID is newer, I was a warrior many years ago, and I can tell you first hand that this site is about information products... it always has been and probably always will be. Yes there are related topics, but the core of the marketing warrior is info products.

    In the case of buying and selling information products, sometimes the only true way to learn is to experience it first hand.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Here we go again. I thought we were scheduled for another wso bash thread.

      Don't buy anything... It is that simple.

      No one cares to change things to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. If you don't like the offers then don't buy.

      If people have buyers remorse then they should stop looking for a magic button to make money and start concentrating on building a business. It will save them a lot of headache, frustration and money.

      Alas, that isn't what people want. They don't want to work for years building up assets. They don't want to put in time and money to test what works.

      They want to be told what to do.

      So they get a plan from a place like the WSO forum and try to follow it. Heck, we all know most people can't follow instructions without modifying it.

      It doesn't work and they are too lazy to try to tweak it and test it.

      So they are off to the next shiny thing (No, not my head) only to find that didn't bring in millions while they sit on the couch filling their mouths with popcorn.

      So now it is our job to save these people? They are not savable until they realize nothing in life worth having will be easy to come by.

      Sometimes you have to go through the pain of bad wso products and frustration to see the light and start focusing on what matters.

      NO, I don't condone wso products that are misleading or outright lies. I also know most of us are adults and should be held responsible for our buying decisions. If they want to be lazy, I don't feel sorry for them when things don't work out.

      Not after spending 4 years focusing on my one product line while others jump around like a dog with a bone lodged up his....
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  • Profile picture of the author Lisa Gergets
    I loathe newcomers that think they know things they don't know.

    Basically, the easiest answer is, if you don't like it, then don't stick around.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
      Originally Posted by Lisa Gergets View Post

      I loathe newcomers that think they know things they don't know.

      Basically, the easiest answer is, if you don't like it, then don't stick around.
      Like proposing systems to "make the WF better" and acting like their proposition is the newest and best thing since sliced bread??? (Despite not knowing that what their proposition is the #1,213,423 time it has been said)

      Rob
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      • Profile picture of the author Lisa Gergets
        Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

        Like proposing systems to "make the WF better" and acting like their proposition is the newest and best thing since sliced bread??? (Despite not knowing that what their proposition is the #1,213,423 time it has been said)

        Rob
        Yup, like that!
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  • Profile picture of the author linaO
    Fly by night or Get rich quick has gone out the window long ago. The game has definitely changed.

    That's besides the point. It's all about value. I think after awhile you learn to weed out the hungry from the few that actually care about your success and will provide that kind of value you won't forget.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    Here we go again. I thought we were scheduled for another wso bash thread.
    It's a slow day.

    Why work when there is a juicy thread to follow.
    Signature

    I'm all about that bass.

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  • Profile picture of the author Jake Gray
    A point to be made is if you find a product that is to good to be true, then it is. Never in a million years would I spend anything on something that had no proof of working. There are bad products in WSO, but there are also some very good ones that deserve recognition. Most of the warriors depend on WF to make most of their online income.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Scientific View Post

      Most of the warriors depend on WF to make most of their online income.

      Restate: "Several of the Warriors"... "Many Warriors"...

      Certainly not "Most of the warriors"....

      Most warriors "that I know" make a dandy living outside of the Warrior Forum, and come here to blow off steam and make beer money.

      Much less than 10% of the revenue I made this year came from the WF.
      Signature
      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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      • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Restate: "Several of the Warriors"... "Many Warriors"...

        Certainly not "Most of the warriors"....

        Most warriors "that I know" make a dandy living outside of the Warrior Forum, and come here to blow off steam and make beer money.

        Much less than 10% of the revenue I made this year came from the WF.
        And, I would like to say, even if most of the warriors did...who cares?

        Let them make most of their money here.

        As long as they aren't lying in their sales copy, providing a good product at a reasonable price, and are providing buyers with some support - let them make all their money here if they want.

        Why would making 100% off of the WF be a bad thing? (other than the fact that putting you eggs in one basket can be dangerous)
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      • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Restate: "Several of the Warriors"... "Many Warriors"...

        Certainly not "Most of the warriors"....

        Most warriors "that I know" make a dandy living outside of the Warrior Forum, and come here to blow off steam and make beer money.

        Much less than 10% of the revenue I made this year came from the WF.

        0% of my income came from WF this year.
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        • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
          Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

          0% of my income came from WF this year.
          That's because you haven't fully exploited the Care Bears niche. Lots of warriors are into Care Bears.
          Signature

          :)

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          • Profile picture of the author Vanessa Reece
            Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

            That's because you haven't fully exploited the Care Bears niche. Lots of warriors are into Care Bears.
            You took the words right out of my mouth.
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            • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
              Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

              It's ridiculous how some people seem to feel threatened by Gewdo's post.
              Threatened? I don't see anyone feeling threatened by comments directed at no one in particular and everyone in general. Insulted, yeah, I can see that, but threatened? Your interpretation seems rather odd to me.
              Signature

              Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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  • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
    It seems that a few WF regulars have become a bit defensive in response to the OP's post which to me didn't seem to attack anyone.
    Signature

    :)

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    • Profile picture of the author Lisa Gergets
      Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

      It seems that a few WF regulars have become a bit defensive in response to the OP's post which to me didn't seem to attack anyone.
      It's because we've seen this same post over...and over...and over...and over again, by people who don't have enough experience here to even form an accurate opinion.
      Signature
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      • Profile picture of the author Gewdo
        Originally Posted by Lisa Gergets View Post

        It's because we've seen this same post over...and over...and over...and over again, by people who don't have enough experience here to even formulate an accurate opinion.

        You may be correct, I am new here. At the same time there are many members that seem to agree with some points. I am not perfect, these are just my observations.

        Best Regards,
        Gewdo
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      • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
        Originally Posted by Lisa Gergets View Post

        It's because we've seen this same post over...and over...and over...and over again, by people who don't have enough experience here to even form an accurate opinion.
        Rather than become defensive, as if they feel attacked by the OP, they should just let it go. Or they could address the OP's concerns in a way that doesn't suggest that they're being attacked (because they're not).

        It just looks weak when people respond to the OP's post as if it was a personal attack.
        Signature

        :)

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        • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
          Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

          Rather than become defensive, as if they feel attacked by the OP, they should just let it go. Or they could address the OP's concerns in a way that doesn't suggest that they're being attacked (because they're not).

          It just looks weak when people respond to the OP's post as if it was a personal attack.
          Or perhaps the people who have been around forever are grouchy because we see this same thread pop up again and again.

          Rob
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          • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
            Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

            Or perhaps the people who have been around forever are grouchy because we see this same thread pop up again and again.

            Rob
            Perhaps that's the case.

            But why be grouchy? Is it because the topic at hand comes up again and again? Or is it because it's a sensitive topic to some?

            I think it's the latter case. But why? The OP was polite and shared how he feels about something which he's concerned with as a consumer of info products. That's all, yet some people (I'm not naming any names) responded as if they were being personally attacked, which is pretty lame IMO.

            It's ridiculous how some people seem to feel threatened by Gewdo's post.
            Signature

            :)

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      • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Lisa Gergets View Post

        It's because we've seen this same post over...and over...and over...and over again, by people who don't have enough experience here to even form an accurate opinion.
        The ironic thing is that you are probably generalizing more than the OP. There are lots of people that read forums and don't post. And "New To The WF" does not mean "New To Internet Marketing".
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        • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
          Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

          The ironic thing is that you are probably generalizing more than the OP. There are lots of people that read forums and don't post. And "New To The WF" does not mean "New To Internet Marketing".
          Her post and this thread have nothing to do with being new or an old pro to internet marketing so your comment does not apply. The OP specifically talks about making this particular forum better, not IM in general.

          Someone with only ten days time in the forum is not going to have the same perceptions or understanding of the dynamics of the forum. You can't get an accurate picture by simply reading threads. It comes from participating and getting to know other members.

          I believe that Gewdo had good intentions but surely some of you can see where his initial comments were rather offensive to many of us that have been here a while? He voiced his opinions and others have voiced theirs. All in all, this was a very civil thread compared to some that I've seen on the same topic.

          Gewdo, I do see where you are coming from and can imagine the first impression you may have received from some of the over-the-top thread titles in the WSO section. However, once you've been around for a while, I believe you will come to realize that this forum is just like the rest of the world.

          There are some experts, some creeps, some know-it-alls, some complete a-holes and some plain old people. There are those who want to help others succeed and those who don't care who they hurt as long as they make money. There are those who share a lot of wisdom and those who talk straight out their ass. It takes a while to know which is which...lol.

          Tina
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          • Profile picture of the author Vanessa Reece
            Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post


            There are some experts, some creeps, some know-it-alls, some complete a-holes and some plain old people. There are those who want to help others succeed and those who don't care who they hurt as long as they make money. There are those who share a lot of wisdom and those who talk straight out their ass. It takes a while to know which is which...lol.

            Tina
            I think you just summed up life in general Tina, not just this forum.
            I agree.

            V
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

      It seems that a few WF regulars have become a bit defensive in response to the OP's post which to me didn't seem to attack anyone.
      We all know that if people don't agree with you or the OP then they must be defensive.

      And here I just thought they were voicing their opinion just like you and the OP did. :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        We all know that if people don't agree with you or the OP then they must be defensive.
        That's not an opinion I have, so please don't attribute it to me.
        Signature

        :)

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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by mojojuju View Post

          That's not an opinion I have, so please don't attribute it to me.
          I didn't attribute any opinion besides that you have an opinion and have the right to express it just like everyone else.
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      • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        We all know that if people don't agree with you or the OP then they must be defensive.

        And here I just thought they were voicing their opinion just like you and the OP did. :rolleyes:
        Oh shut up, Baldy.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

          Oh shut up, Baldy.
          Everyone is entitled to their opinion besides John. I am sure that is a rule now.
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  • Profile picture of the author Buildingfutures
    Here's the amazing thing about learning how to do business online:

    YOU WILL SPEND MONEY, AND YOU WILL BUY CRAP MORE THAN GEMS IN THE BEGINNING.


    I know I've personally wasted near 3-4k in my six years of doing this buying the 'shiny products' that catch my interest. I'm half-crow, I swear.

    I bought a WSO yesterday for $1. IT says how to make money with $25 or less and get more than that back. Maybe a few of you have seen it, I'm using it as an example. Fantastic book, and I already was aware of this particular method of generating cash, BUT the author added extra bits to it. A new site to use this method with (Much better than the previous products site) and the surefire way to make sure that you get customers, not browsers.

    Learned some awesome things from it.

    Then there's some of the ads that show up at the top of the forum. I've bought a few of those too. Not worth my time, at least not the ones that lead to some salespage offsite. Still waiting on a refund from one of them.

    Another thing, if you have such a problem with WSO's, either don't buy, or buy the ones that have a money-back guarantee. I Do. There's rarely a time I will buy if there isn't.

    It's all about being smart, doing your due dilligence with the author of the WSO, making sure he is a good member of this site, and plain old luck.

    Welcome to IM, there's people here who throw **** at you, just duck down and look for the gems on the ground.

    -Sean
    Signature

    Simple Mission Statement "Under the Radar and Over the Top!"
    Sean's Guide To The Forum
    Thoughts of a 22 Year Old Marketer

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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Buildingfutures View Post

      Welcome to IM, there's people here who throw **** at you, just duck down and look for the gems on the ground.

      That is the most inspiring thing I have read all day. Thanks.
      Signature
      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Everyone is capable of producing yet another redundant, rehashed info product or even yet another redundant, rehashed thread about crappy WSOs ... like this one, for instance.

    When you go shopping, does someone go with you and hold your hand to tell you what to buy and what not to buy?

    Same thing here. Due diligence is your job. If you go around buying every product that promises the moon and delivers an ordinary rock, you'll probably end up buying some junk.

    The WSOs that I have bought, with just a couple of exceptions, have been excellent information. I choose products carefully and I don't sit around the WSO forum looking for a way to get rich fast and easy. I buy from Warriors signatures in the forum that I feel I know and respect. It never fails me that way.
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    • Profile picture of the author Gewdo
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      Same thing here. Due diligence is your job. If you go around buying every product that promises the moon and delivers an ordinary rock, you'll probably end up buying some junk.
      This is exactly my point. So it is justifiable to throw ethics out the window if they are dumb enough to buy a **** Popsicle?

      Going back to what someone else has said, no post counts and thank yous are not a great indicator of what someone's expert levels are. One could quickly go through and add 10 usless comments to posts a day for 6 months and now they are an expert?

      Best Regards,
      Gewdo
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

        This is exactly my point. So it is justifiable to throw ethics out the window if they are dumb enough to buy a **** Popsicle?

        Going back to what someone else has said, no post counts and thank yous are not a great indicator of what someone's expert levels are. One could quickly go through and add 10 usless comments to posts a day for 6 months and now they are an expert?

        Best Regards,
        Gewdo
        And low post count and broad generalizations from people who paint everyone with the same brush are not an indicator of expert status on the sellers in this forum or the management of this forum.

        If you think everyone is a scammer, use common sense and don't buy. It's really as simple as that.
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        • Profile picture of the author Gewdo
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          And low post count and broad generalizations from people who paint everyone with the same brush are not an indicator expert status on the sellers in this forum or the management of this forum.

          If you think everyone is a scammer, use common sense and don't buy. It's really as simple as that.
          I did NOT say "anyone with expert under their name." What I did say was experts selling rehashed ideas as their own WSO was unethical.

          Thank you.

          Gewdo
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  • Profile picture of the author Giani
    I have bought three products here and all three have been useful for me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
    Banned
    It is kinda funny. Because the same people that say "Nothing is easy, it takes MASSIVE ACTION" have signatures that contradict that statement. But buyer beware. Personally, if you stay outta the WSO section, you'll be better off. As Tim Ferriss says, it's easier to control your environment than display willpower.

    Just to make the WSO forum a better place, I think it would be helpful if there was more of a formal review ssection. Kinda like how you'd see on a Amazon.com.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

      Just to make the WSO forum a better place, I think it would be helpful if there was more of a formal review ssection. Kinda like how you'd see on a Amazon.com.

      That would slow the advertising to a trickle, and it would make the cost of advertising more expensive, which in turn will pass more costs to the buyers of said products.

      Right now, WSO's have the Thanks button, the five-star rating system, and WSO Feedback which is limited to people who are asking questions or have seen the product.

      How much more review is really necessary, and will it be worth the additional cost?
      Signature
      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    I want to partner with Zeus66 and Thomas Belknap for a comedy movie.

    Instead of "Three Amigos" we can call it, "Three Bald Egos".

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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      I want to partner with Zeus66 and Thomas Belknap for a comedy movie.

      Instead of "Three Amigos" we can call it, "Three Bald Egos".

      I got dibs on Dusty Bottoms.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    It's because we've seen this same post over...and over...and over...and over again, by people who don't have enough experience here to even form an accurate opinion.
    A lot of things are posted over... and over... and over and you don't see this amount of backlash against the OP's of those threads.

    No, this thread hit a nerve.

    Somebody pass the popcorn.
    Signature

    I'm all about that bass.

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  • Profile picture of the author Gewdo
    Thank you all for your feedback. At this time I am going to contact a Moderator and ask that this forum and locked as alot of good things can be taken from it and we do not need it to turn into anything it was not meant to be.

    What I am going to do is the following:

    1. Sit back a couple of hours and relax.
    2. Come back and review the entire thread again and take notes.
    3. Come up plan of action for my self.
    4. Reach out Alan with solutions rather than suggestions. Yes he has heard them all before, but have then been provided as solutions? Just as TPW asked me about the furniture, he can with it as he pleases and I can like it or hate it.
    5. Start leading by example. Use my own frustrations as a "noob" and be more informative with the information I share as I learn.

    Hope everyone has a happy new year and a great 2011.

    Best Regards,
    Gewdo
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  • Profile picture of the author John Lenaghan
    Originally Posted by Gewdo View Post

    You have a great community here and all it looks like to me, is you are peddling the same bs as each other and just rewording it.
    The reality is, there are only so many things you can say about this business. Most of the stuff out there, whether in WSO's or otherwise, is either based on direct response marketing principles from long before the internet was the delivery medium of choice or the technical aspects of the internet, like SEO, PPC or any number of other "how to do it" subjects.

    You might find a product that frames it in a unique way, or resonates with you more than any others for some reason, but the fact is there's not a lot of truly new and unique subjects to write about.

    It's hardly unique to the Warrior Forum and WSO's though. If you walk into your local bookstore and look in the personal finance section, you'll find a heck of a lot of books on the same subjects.

    Or look at the computer section - how many books are there that teach you the basics of using Windows?

    What about your local grocery store? How many brands of nacho chips do they have? Or ice cream?

    It's all the same basic stuff, but one might appeal to different people than another.

    John
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