55 replies
Being as the WarriorForum is one of, if not the leading internet marketing forums around, I thought I'd see what kind of response I'd get to something I am considering.

Please keep in mind that this is only something I am considering, and have NOT implemented it yet...
Refund Policy

First, if you're reading this, it's likely that I don't want your money, nor do I want you to purchase this product, because if you haven't seen the value of what you're purchasing, you wouldn't be concerned about a refund.

Second, generally (from 01/01/2011 onward) NO REFUNDS are (or will be) offered on any products I offer for sale, see point one above. However, on a CASE BY CASE basis, if your reason for asking for a refund meets MY criteria for granting one, then you will get one.

Third, and lastly, I DO NOT offer crap products for sale. Each and every product I offer has either taught me something, or will likely teach YOU something. If that's not good enough for you, then please do NOT purchase. Save us both a lot of time, headache and hassle and go look elsewhere for what you seek.
Ultimately, at the end of the day, each business owner's refund policy is one that they, and their customers, are comfortable with.

Thanks to all who reply with their intelligent observations...

Be Well!
ECS Dave
#policy #refund
  • Profile picture of the author Sergiu FUNIERU
    I think that, if the price is less than $2, I would risk buying from a site that has this kind of agressive refund policy.

    From my point of view, even if I buy the first product and I'm satisfied, I'm afraid I'll not be able to establish a relationship with you.

    Let me give you an example, that happend to me, on a phone conversation:
    - Tell me, please, when can I expect an official response if I send you an eMail?
    - You haven't even send it yet!
    and the person dropped the connection.

    If I really need the products you sell, and I'm not able to find them anywhere else, I'll might consider buying. I'm not sure though.

    It's a nice thing that you asked before you actually put that policy online. The rest of your message is written by a nice person, while the return policy looks to me that is written by your enemy, who doesn't want you to have any satisfied customers.

    Sergiu FUNIERU
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Dave, if I'm going to be totally honest, it's the kind of refund policy I'd love
      to use. But truth is, if I did, I know my sales would drop significantly.

      How do I know that?

      Because I know my target market. It's not Lexus purchasers. It's Hyundai
      purchasers. And when you know you're target market, you know how you
      have to cater to it.

      But yeah, I'd love to just put that up and be done with all the nonsense.

      Of course that won't stop people from putting in PayPal disputes and
      causing other kinds of headaches.

      Anyway, I enjoyed your post.

      Great minds think alike.
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      • Profile picture of the author ECS Dave
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Dave, if I'm going to be totally honest, it's the kind of refund policy I'd love
        to use. But truth is, if I did, I know my sales would drop significantly.

        How do I know that?

        Because I know my target market. It's not Lexus purchasers. It's Hyundai
        purchasers. And when you know you're target market, you know how you
        have to cater to it.

        But yeah, I'd love to just put that up and be done with all the nonsense.

        Of course that won't stop people from putting in PayPal disputes and
        causing other kinds of headaches.

        Anyway, I enjoyed your post.

        Great minds think alike.
        Thanks Steven!

        I'd hope to not have to have a policy like that, and find a middle ground, as it were, to weed out those "serial refunders" that so many speak about.

        To put a "reason" to the point of my posting here, it's because of a blog post made by Ross Goldberg (Internet Marketing and Lack Of Integrity | Ross Goldberg's Immortal Internet Marketing), some of the comments made to it, and seeing others question the way to handle refunds...

        Be Well!
        ECS Dave
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    • Profile picture of the author ECS Dave
      Originally Posted by Sergiu FUNIERU View Post

      the return policy looks to me that is written by your enemy, who doesn't want you to have any satisfied customers.
      Are you suggesting that to have satisfied customers one must have a "pleasing" refund policy? Does the product itself have anything to do with the customer's satisfaction (or lack thereof)?

      Thanks for your comment!

      Be Well!
      ECS Dave
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by ECS Dave View Post

        Are you suggesting that to have satisfied customers one must have a "pleasing" refund policy? Does the product itself have anything to do with the customer's satisfaction (or lack thereof)?

        Thanks for your comment!

        Be Well!
        ECS Dave
        No, I would suggest that to have an actual buyer, you may want to reword the policy.

        It's not about having satisfied customers, it's about having any customers to potentially satisfy in the first place.

        All the best,
        Michael
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        • Profile picture of the author ECS Dave
          Originally Posted by remodeler View Post

          I wouldn't buy. The feeling conveyed is that the customer is your enemy and you are the king. For example... refund meets MY criteria for granting one, then you will get one. What is YOUR criteria? Do you spell that out?

          Your idea and my idea of CRAP products may be completely different. Whose to judge what is crap? Telling me to go elsewhere is what I would do, regardless of how great I perceived the product.

          Finally, why the aggressiveness? Refunds are a part of any business, both online and offline. You're always going to get a few unsavory individuals, but let it roll off. It's only my opinion, but this is not a refund policy I would ever consider putting up on a sales letter. I think you might find you'll get more sales with a cheerful refund policy that puts the potential customer at ease... not getting them stirred up.

          I'm not being critical of you personally, just the policy.
          Awesome! Thanks for your comment... As I mentioned, this is only something being considered, and not yet (if ever) implemented.
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          I find that to be too confrontational. It's not about whether or not we can see the value BASED ON A SALES LETTER...it's whether or not the product lives up to what the sales letter claims.

          There's a HUGE difference between the two, and why I would be turned off by the tone of said refund policy. It seems to assume that those who ask for refunds don't really need them. It assumes distrust of the buyer, or appears to from my point of view.

          But I do like some parts of it, and don't necessarily have a problem with a "no refunds" policy, as long as it's worded in a way that doesn't make ME sound bad.

          All the best,
          Michael
          Indeed, assumption of distrust from the buyer is not something that's wanted, but sometimes it appears to be what's happening. At least from some of the things I've read recently. Maybe I'm reading too much, eh?
          Originally Posted by brandony View Post

          Hey Dave,
          Yeah, I can see where you are coming from, but I'd still offer a refund policy. Steven also brings up the Paypal issues...very true. And sometimes, people get inside, and just decide it's not what they were looking for.

          I know you say it's quality, but....the best way of saying that is to have others say it.

          Just a couple thoughts,
          Brandon
          Thanks Brandon!
          Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

          No, I would suggest that to have an actual buyer, you may want to reword the policy.

          It's not about having satisfied customers, it's about having any customers at all to be satisfied.

          All the best,
          Michael
          Yes, rewording/rethinking are all options that are being considered. Perhaps there are some who would like to offer up their "rewrites"?

          Be Well!
          ECS Dave
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      • Profile picture of the author Sergiu FUNIERU
        Originally Posted by ECS Dave View Post

        Are you suggesting that to have satisfied customers one must have a "pleasing" refund policy? Does the product itself have anything to do with the customer's satisfaction (or lack thereof)?
        In my opinion, customer's satisfaction is the most important aspect. If the customer is not satisfied, not only he'll not come back, but he will start to tell others about the bad experience he had with your site/product/customer service.

        The customer buys your book because he wants to solve a problem. Even if your eBook is the greatest ever written, if it doesn't solve his problem, he will not be satisfied. The return policy takes care of that. If you say that you'll return his money if the eBook didn't fit his purpose, then he will be tempted to try.

        Simply put, you deny the prospective customer the chance to try. You want all sales to be final, without the customer being able to see the product first.

        The tone of voice from your return policy is harsh. It shows that your sole interest is in making money, not in helping the customer.

        Of course, I'm not saying that you don't care about the customer. I'm only commenting on the text you posted. Please take the useful part of what I wrote.

        Sergiu FUNIERU
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      • Profile picture of the author donhx
        Originally Posted by ECS Dave View Post

        Are you suggesting that to have satisfied customers one must have a "pleasing" refund policy? Does the product itself have anything to do with the customer's satisfaction (or lack thereof)?

        Possibly he was saying that your refund policy has a very adversarial tone to it. It could be rewritten to enlist the support of the buyer, rather than alienating them. For example, you could say something like,

        "99% of our buyers don't seek a refund, and that's why we don't offer one. However, if you have a problem of any kind, we are happy to hear from you. We sell digital information and once you have it you can't return it, so our return policy is fair. Plus, we have provided lots of samples of what we offer, and testimonials, so you can feel confident about the quality of our product before you buy."

        Of course, this is useless anyway since customers can always raise a dispute with PayPal or a charge back with their credit card company. Refunds are a part of the cost of doing business.
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        • Profile picture of the author rickfrazier1
          Originally Posted by donhx View Post

          "99% of our buyers don't seek a refund, and that's why we don't offer one. However, if you have a problem of any kind, we are happy to hear from you. We sell digital information and once you have it you can't return it, so our return policy is fair. Plus, we have provided lots of samples of what we offer, and testimonials, so you can feel confident about the quality of our product before you buy."

          Of course, this is useless anyway since customers can always raise a dispute with PayPal or a charge back with their credit card company. Refunds are a part of the cost of doing business.
          Having tried to get a refund for a paypal purchase, I found that paypal won't side with you unless you plain and simple didn't get the product.

          Though it isn't stated in the same terms as ECS Dave, when you purchase a CD or DVD at your local store, you essentially get the same thing. Once you open it, it's yours, and not returnable.

          I like the softer wording provided by donhx and thought something on the lines of the following might work.

          "Because of the problem with copyrights on digital products, full refunds are not possible. However, we are happy to replace any defective product and appreciate feedback so we can improve our productys in the future."

          Of course, I'm likely to stick with a 60 day return policy, because with a good product and honest marketing, the returns are so low it doesn't really matter. Even a few serial returners don't matter in the long run. On the other hand, some products don't have low return rates. I think there is another thread with something like a 74% or 78% return rate...
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  • Profile picture of the author remodeler
    I wouldn't buy. The feeling conveyed is that the customer is your enemy and you are the king. For example... refund meets MY criteria for granting one, then you will get one. What is YOUR criteria? Do you spell that out?

    Your idea and my idea of CRAP products may be completely different. Whose to judge what is crap? Telling me to go elsewhere is what I would do, regardless of how great I perceived the product.

    Finally, why the aggressiveness? Refunds are a part of any business, both online and offline. You're always going to get a few unsavory individuals, but let it roll off. It's only my opinion, but this is not a refund policy I would ever consider putting up on a sales letter. I think you might find you'll get more sales with a cheerful refund policy that puts the potential customer at ease... not getting them stirred up.

    I'm not being critical of you personally, just the policy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    First, if you're reading this, it's likely that I don't want your money, nor do I want you to purchase this product, because if you haven't seen the value of what you're purchasing, you wouldn't be concerned about a refund.
    I find that to be too confrontational. It's not about whether or not we can see the value BASED ON A SALES LETTER...it's whether or not the product lives up to what the sales letter claims.

    There's a HUGE difference between the two, and why I would be turned off by the tone of said refund policy. It seems to assume that those who ask for refunds don't really need them. It assumes distrust of the buyer, or appears to from my point of view.

    But I do like some parts of it, and don't necessarily have a problem with a "no refunds" policy, as long as it's worded in a way that doesn't make ME sound bad.

    All the best,
    Michael
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    • Profile picture of the author sanssecret
      Couldn't you word it in a less confrontational manner? Seriously, telling people who check out your policies that you don't want their money sounds to me like you only want purchasers who you can rip off.

      If they read the policy you don't want them to buy from you.

      If they don't read the policy they get stung because I have no doubt you'll direct them to the same policy should they ask you for a refund.

      I have no problem with zero refund polices in general, but yours just sounds way too confrontational.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      I find that to be too confrontational. It's not about whether or not we can see the value BASED ON A SALES LETTER...it's whether or not the product lives up to what the sales letter claims.

      There's a HUGE difference between the two, and why I would be turned off by the tone of said refund policy. It seems to assume that those who ask for refunds don't really need them. It assumes distrust of the buyer, or appears to from my point of view.

      But I do like some parts of it, and don't necessarily have a problem with a "no refunds" policy, as long as it's worded in a way that doesn't make ME sound bad.

      All the best,
      Michael

      I am with Michael on this one Dave.

      There are more subtle ways to deal with that, than the way you are suggesting.

      And subtle enough to get ride of the riff-raff without scaring away the good people.

      I recently rewrote the copy on my WSO last week, to help address this problem.

      Here is what I did. Towards the end of the WSO copy, it says:
      If you are looking for a Magic Button solution, this is not it...

      But if you are looking for viable, long-term strategies to develop traffic for your websites, then you need this report now...

      If you cannot put any of these traffic strategies to work for your business in the next 90-days, Ask for a Refund...
      The point is to stop those who want something that is not humanly-possible to deliver at the door. No one is really offering a "buy it and it turns your bank account into a literal ATM..."

      I stop those who have their heads in their asses, and I still nurture those who are serious about their future and have realistic expectations.

      It has so far reduced my refunds from 10% to 0.

      I have only sold 20 since I changed my copy, so it really is too soon to know if it had the intended effect, but I am holding my breath that maybe it did.

      While refunds are down, my sales conversion is up by two points.
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      • I think it's good to have a no refund policy.

        If I went to Barnes & Nobles and bought a book, I don't think they'd refund me if I told them I didn't like it after I had finished reading...

        Or would they?
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        • Profile picture of the author ECS Dave
          Originally Posted by rkcc4 View Post

          Not practical, all your competitors offer refunds, prospects would assume you had something to hide. If you build some trust and offer a genuine and unique product you will not get refund requests.

          How would you sell it? Clickbank demand 60 days don't they?

          I bought two products yesterday via this forum so I guess you have alternatives but in your position, I would hate to have to manage paypal requests for refunds.

          If you price it right people will buy and as I have said in another post, if I learn one thing I am happy just as long as it does what it says on the tin.
          Nothing to hide, other than the "complete" contents of whatever it is that I may be offering... I guess the sales letter better convey everything it can, without actually giving away everything, eh?

          This isn't about clickbank's policies, can't do anything about those...
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          I am with Michael on this one Dave.

          There are more subtle ways to deal with that, than the way you are suggesting.

          And subtle enough to get ride of the riff-raff without scaring away the good people.

          I recently rewrote the copy on my WSO last week, to help address this problem.

          Here is what I did. Towards the end of the WSO copy, it says:
          If you are looking for a Magic Button solution, this is not it...

          But if you are looking for viable, long-term strategies to develop traffic for your websites, then you need this report now...

          If you cannot put any of these traffic strategies to work for your business in the next 90-days, Ask for a Refund...
          The point is to stop those who want something that is not humanly-possible to deliver at the door. No one is really offering a "buy it and it turns your bank account into a literal ATM..."

          I stop those who have their heads in their asses, and I still nurture those who are serious about their future and have realistic expectations.

          It has so far reduced my refunds from 10% to 0.

          I have only sold 20 since I changed my copy, so it really is too soon to know if it had the intended effect, but I am holding my breath that maybe it did.

          While refunds are down, my sales conversion is up by two points.
          Way to go Bill! From what you are saying, if there's a policy at all, it maybe should be tailored to each offer...
          Originally Posted by mikemcmillan View Post

          I understand your desire to squash serial refunding Dave. I generally have no problem giving refunds. Some requests may be legit and some are just scammers wanting things for free. The way I look at it is that if a professional refunder buys and then asks for a refund right away after downloading--well, I look at that as a sale that never occurred anyway.

          Now, if you're selling a service or something that requires coaching or actual time spent with the customer that is a different matter. If I invest my time and expertise with someone and after getting that they ask for a refund that would get my dander up. I do not offer refunds for such things.

          I'd just look at someone like Sony. I can't even hazard a guess as to how many people download their music illegally online. And I'm sure it's an issue with them, but it's a part of doing business online. Sometimes we all need to bite the bullet, no matter how distasteful, and issue refunds whether the reason seems legit or not.

          Life's too short to chase everyone down who does you dirty online and kick their arse no matter how well deserved or satisfying it might be. Good Luck, Mike
          Thanks for your thoughtful post Mike... Right now I don't sell services, but am considering it, and am likely in agreement with your model...
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          Dave, my perception, as a consumer, would be that you are an arrogant ass and I'd be more than happy to oblige you by keeping my credit card in my pocket.

          First off, I can't see the value in the product itself until it's in my possession. I can only see the image of that value as built into your sales materials - and we all know sales letters never bend, stretch or otherwise distort the truth, right?

          Second, you're asking me to take your word that you only produce quality products and that your definition of 'quality' is equal to or superior to my own. Something I'm not quite ready to grant carte blanche...

          Bottom line, it's your business and you're free to set your policies. Your payment processor or the buyer's credit card company may not agree, but, hey, that's what the dispute process is for, right?

          I wrote this without reading the other replies, so that you got my honest reaction uncolored by the discussion. After I post this, I'm going to see how many people like your new policy...
          John, I've been called worse, and for things that were real...

          As for my OP, some seem to have missed the original point of "contemplation" and/or consideration... :confused:

          I look forward to your thoughts after you've read some of the other poster's thoughts...
          Originally Posted by Illumination View Post

          I think it's good to have a no refund policy.

          If I went to Barnes & Nobles and bought a book, I don't think they'd refund me if I told them I didn't like it after I had finished reading...

          Or would they?
          That's a curious one there... According to the below, it "appears" possible...
          Returning Items Bought in Barnes & Noble Bookstores


          Barnes & Noble Bookstores make it easy to return an item when you are not satisfied.

          Simply bring the item and your cash register receipt to your local Barnes & Noble Bookstore for a refund to your original form of payment or, if you have a gift receipt, for a refund as a gift card. Please call your local Barnes & Noble Bookstore for more information.
          Thus far, it seems that a "one size, fits all" refund policy, or even a lack of one, is not a recommended course of customer satisfaction, eh?

          Truly an educational thread, and much appreciation to all who have contributed so far...

          Be Well!
          ECS Dave
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          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
            Originally Posted by ECS Dave View Post

            John, I've been called worse, and for things that were real...

            As for my OP, some seem to have missed the original point of "contemplation" and/or consideration... :confused:

            I look forward to your thoughts after you've read some of the other poster's thoughts...

            Be Well!
            ECS Dave
            Maybe I would have been better off putting my second observation in a new post instead of simply adding it to the first one as an edit...

            As the inestimable Maxwell Smart used to say, "Sorry about that, chief..."

            After reading the rest of the discussion up to this point, I stand by the content of my earlier comments, but I'd amend them to be a little less confrontational myself.

            It dawned on me that the wording of the policy reminded me a lot of an exchange I had with an ebook seller several years ago. I can't name names here, but it sounded a lot like "Zho Chumar"

            I bought his ebook, read it and requested a refund. He replied by accusing me of trying to steal his product by asking for a refund. BTW, Clickbank did give me the refund.

            "Zho's" tactics caught up with him when he oversold a rights package by several times the stated limit, then disappeared...

            And to be perfectly clear, the ONLY comparison I drawing is to the tone of the two pieces.
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  • Profile picture of the author brandony
    Hey Dave,
    Yeah, I can see where you are coming from, but I'd still offer a refund policy. Steven also brings up the Paypal issues...very true. And sometimes, people get inside, and just decide it's not what they were looking for.

    I know you say it's quality, but....the best way of saying that is to have others say it.

    Just a couple thoughts,
    Brandon
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  • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
    I think you should worry less about serial refunders and focus on the 99% of people who are legitimate ones.
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    • Profile picture of the author paul wolfe
      Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

      I think you should worry less about serial refunders and focus on the 99% of people who are legitimate ones.

      What Andy said.
      Absolutely spot on.
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  • Profile picture of the author JoMo
    If you do use that refund policy you should rewrite it or have someone else rewrite it so it sounds like a professional policy and not a rant of a pissed off business owner.



    - joel
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    I can tell you what I often use for a refund policy. Nothing.

    I seriously don't think a lack of a written refund policy has hurt sales at all. My refund rate is well under 1% and I have given refunds in close to 100% of cases (I think it IS 100%, but there may be some from years ago).

    So, that's always an option.

    All the best,
    Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author activetrader
    Originally Posted by ECS Dave View Post

    Ultimately, at the end of the day, each business owner's refund policy is one that they, and their customers, are comfortable with.
    If you don't want to give refunds, why don't you just say 'Refund Policy: All digital sales are final. No refunds will be issued on digital products which cannot be returned."
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    • Profile picture of the author JoMo
      Originally Posted by activetrader View Post

      If you don't want to give refunds, why don't you just say 'Refund Policy: All digital sales are final. No refunds will be issued on digital products which cannot be returned."
      Has anyone done any research in this market to see if a "no return policy" hurts sales significantly?



      -joel
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    • Profile picture of the author BlissUk
      Originally Posted by activetrader View Post

      If you don't want to give refunds, why don't you just say 'Refund Policy: All digital sales are final. No refunds will be issued on digital products which cannot be returned."
      I have to totally agree with this. I think if we had this kind of refund policy then we would loose lots of clients before we even get them.

      One of my company's is a hosting company to which we do not offer refunds either on monthly packages, we state this in our terms and conditions and the clients seem to be happy with this. But we have to put it in a nice way as not to offend.

      Even though your refund policy statement would be nice to use, i am sure it would upset a lot of clients. So I have to agree with the quote above to be the best way to go if you are not offering refunds.

      Regards

      Bliss
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    • Profile picture of the author ECS Dave
      Originally Posted by Sergiu FUNIERU View Post

      In my opinion, customer's satisfaction is the most important aspect. If the customer is not satisfied, not only he'll not come back, but he will start to tell others about the bad experience he had with your site/product/customer service.

      The customer buys your book because he wants to solve a problem. Even if your eBook is the greatest ever written, if it doesn't solve his problem, he will not be satisfied. The return policy takes care of that. If you say that you'll return his money if the eBook didn't fit his purpose, then he will be tempted to try.

      Simply put, you deny the prospective customer the chance to try. You want all sales to be final, without the customer being able to see the product first.

      The tone of voice from your return policy is harsh. It shows that your sole interest is in making money, not in helping the customer.

      Of course, I'm not saying that you don't care about the customer. I'm only commenting on the text you posted. Please take the useful part of what I wrote.

      Sergiu FUNIERU
      I do care about the customer, greatly... Your comments are thought provoking, and are appreciated!
      Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

      I think you should worry less about serial refunders and focus on the 99% of people who are legitimate ones.
      I'm with you there Andy!
      Originally Posted by sanssecret View Post

      Couldn't you word it in a less confrontational manner? Seriously, telling people who check out your policies that you don't want their money sounds to me like you only want purchasers who you can rip off.

      If they read the policy you don't want them to buy from you.

      If they don't read the policy they get stung because I have no doubt you'll direct them to the same policy should they ask you for a refund.

      I have no problem with zero refund polices in general, but yours just sounds way too confrontational.
      Originally Posted by JoMo View Post

      If you do use that refund policy you should rewrite it or have someone else rewrite it so it sounds like a professional policy and not a rant of a pissed off business owner.



      - joel
      Certainly something I hope to gain from this discussion...
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      I can tell you what I often use for a refund policy. Nothing.

      I seriously don't think a lack of a written refund policy has hurt sales at all. My refund rate is well under 1% and I have given refunds in close to 100% of cases (I think it IS 100%, but there may be some from years ago).

      So, that's always an option.

      All the best,
      Michael
      True, that's an option to be considered. Perhaps that's something I may do... Or the below...
      Originally Posted by activetrader View Post

      If you don't want to give refunds, why don't you just say 'Refund Policy: All digital sales are final. No refunds will be issued on digital products which cannot be returned."
      It's not that I don't want to give refunds, I want to try (as best as possible, besides offering great products) to cut down, or even eliminate the need for refunds... Short of just giving everything away...

      Be Well!
      ECS Dave
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  • Profile picture of the author Sergiu FUNIERU
    Maybe the agrresive form of the policy is what turns off the reader. How about this form?
    "All the money I earn, from the products I sell to you, I use to buy clothes for my wife. If you ask me for a refund, I have to ask her to give back her clothes to the store. Please help me avoid a family crisis by not asking me for a refund. This will keep me happy and sane, and able to deliver even more great products for you to buy.

    Thank you for understanding."

    Sergiu FUNIERU
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  • Profile picture of the author Gail Sober
    Why worry so much about a few refunds in the 1st place?

    Sales are like spaghetti, the more you throw at the wall, the more that will stick.

    I wouldn't buy with that refund notice in place but may with the suggested, "All Sales are Final" policy. It states your position without coming across as rude.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Dolan
    Its a tough refund policy. I think the problem is with many products the user gets the value (whether they feel they didn't or not) and while you can refund them, you can't erase their memory, so they ultimately got the product and didn't pay for it.

    I have had few problems over the years, the worse type of user is the one who threatens you in Private Messages about what he/she will post in the WSO thread. Usually I don't want them as customers, but equally I don't like bullies, so I put something in the thread about some threat, and tell them to go ahead and post.

    I think the tone is confrontational, and might put a few people off. Maybe you can say it the same way, but a little more toned down, the old saying however will innevitably come true "you cant please all the people all of the time".
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    I have to be honest posting something like this already is hurting you.

    In a forum full of potential customers you are coming across as a complete jack @

    You have to understand this is a business where getting people to even view your offer is a task then they get to the point they are going to buy and you throw a policy like this out there all that will happen is "click off" and they will be gone.

    Rather than say it like this why not just say All sales are final stores use it on sales priced items etc Do not look at your potential customer as a rip of artist and why on earth would you be basing your own refund policy on what you read?

    You have got to have repeat customers who are satisfied with your product and Customer service. don't push them out the door before they even get the chance to experience your awesome product.

    No one is going to write YOUR refund policy or rewrite as it were this is your business so run it
    -Will
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I don't worry about refunds. For the niche websites I sell, I don't get many, but when I do, if I suspect that there wasn't a really good reason for it, I ban them in DLGuard from every purchasing from me again. So I never have serial refunders.

    The ebook I'm selling is a licensed exe file, so if they refund, the license is revoked and can no longer be opened. Haven't had any refunds on that either.
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    • Profile picture of the author ECS Dave
      Originally Posted by Sergiu FUNIERU View Post

      Maybe the agrresive form of the policy is what turns off the reader. How about this form?
      "All the money I earn, from the products I sell to you, I use to buy clothes for my wife. If you ask me for a refund, I have to ask her to give back her clothes to the store. Please help me avoid a family crisis by not asking me for a refund. This will keep me happy and sane, and able to deliver even more great products for you to buy.

      Thank you for understanding."

      Sergiu FUNIERU
      That's a good one Sergiu! Brings the potential customer into the "family"...
      Originally Posted by Gail Sober View Post

      I wouldn't buy with that refund notice in place but may with the suggested, "All Sales are Final" policy. It states your position without coming across as rude.
      That's appearing to be the general mood of many here so far...
      Originally Posted by Chris Egan View Post

      "you cant please all the people all of the time".
      There's a reason for that saying, it's TRUE!
      Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

      I have to be honest posting something like this already is hurting you.

      In a forum full of potential customers you are coming across as a complete jack @

      You have to understand this is a business where getting people to even view your offer is a task then they get to the point they are going to buy and you throw a policy like this out there all that will happen is "click off" and they will be gone.

      Rather than say it like this why not just say All sales are final stores use it on sales priced items etc Do not look at your potential customer as a rip of artist and why on earth would you be basing your own refund policy on what you read?

      You have got to have repeat customers who are satisfied with your product and Customer service. don't push them out the door before they even get the chance to experience your awesome product.

      No one is going to write YOUR refund policy or rewrite as it were this is your business so run it
      -Will
      Thanks Will, every day is a learning experience and your post helps us all to learn...

      This thread is filled with great insight, and I hope to gain more...

      Be Well!
      ECS Dave
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  • Profile picture of the author somacorellc
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Hey Dave,

      If you don't want to offer refunds that's cool. I don't offer a refund for one of my products because it's templates so they get the actual word doc. And it's sold very well even though I'm very clear, no refunds.

      However your policy is very confrontational and bit condescending. So I would suggest you tone it down. You can say no refunds allowed in a nicer way.
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    If you have enough issues with seriel refunders to make you create a policy like this, you have other issues. Just because you say you dont sell crap doesn't mean it wont be crap to someone else.

    If you really want to a no refunds, simply say do to it being digital that no refunds will be granted.

    Lastly, the last few products I purchased with no refunds and had no trial, I did so because others praised them. Wish I never did as the software is buggy. Now I wont so easily in the future.

    -g
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  • Profile picture of the author Blaine Moore
    I wouldn't use that policy myself - I'd rather have happy customers.

    I agree with the general sentiment that it's a bit harsh and confrontational, which might work if that's the sort of persona you present yourself as but it's definitely not my style.

    My biggest concern would be with people that dispute the charges with the credit card companies as I'd rather issue a refund than lose my merchant account if that's the only means somebody has of getting their money back if they don't feel they got adequate value for what they paid.

    But, as mentioned above, worrying about your customers and not the cheats is a better policy, in my book. I haven't run into this problem yet, but if I get a refund without a good reason or if somebody buys and refunds more than once, I'm going to blacklist them and they won't be able to purchase from me in the future. Problem solved.
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    • Profile picture of the author ECS Dave
      Originally Posted by somacorellc View Post

      I would just say:

      "All sales are final. Thanks!"

      And then I would give refunds on a case by case basis anyway. Selling a good product will lend itself to minimal requests anyway. If you get a refund request, just issue it and the problem goes away.
      More and more, in this thread, are tending to this direction...

      Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

      If you have enough issues with seriel refunders to make you create a policy like this, you have other issues. Just because you say you dont sell crap doesn't mean it wont be crap to someone else.

      If you really want to a no refunds, simply say do to it being digital that no refunds will be granted.

      Lastly, the last few products I purchased with no refunds and had no trial, I did so because others praised them. Wish I never did as the software is buggy. Now I wont so easily in the future.

      -g
      I don't have issues with serial refunders, or refunders at all... Before making my OP I checked my history, both as a seller, and as an affiliate, and I estimate less than a 15% rate, with most of that as an affiliate of some clickbank products.
      Originally Posted by Blaine Moore View Post

      I wouldn't use that policy myself - I'd rather have happy customers.

      I agree with the general sentiment that it's a bit harsh and confrontational, which might work if that's the sort of persona you present yourself as but it's definitely not my style.

      My biggest concern would be with people that dispute the charges with the credit card companies as I'd rather issue a refund than lose my merchant account if that's the only means somebody has of getting their money back if they don't feel they got adequate value for what they paid.

      But, as mentioned above, worrying about your customers and not the cheats is a better policy, in my book. I haven't run into this problem yet, but if I get a refund without a good reason or if somebody buys and refunds more than once, I'm going to blacklist them and they won't be able to purchase from me in the future. Problem solved.
      It's really not my style either, just pondering things to do to help increase conversions, now, and into the future. Thanks for your post!

      Be Well!
      ECS Dave
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  • Profile picture of the author rkcc4
    Not practical, all your competitors offer refunds, prospects would assume you had something to hide. If you build some trust and offer a genuine and unique product you will not get refund requests.

    How would you sell it? Clickbank demand 60 days don't they?

    I bought two products yesterday via this forum so I guess you have alternatives but in your position, I would hate to have to manage paypal requests for refunds.

    If you price it right people will buy and as I have said in another post, if I learn one thing I am happy just as long as it does what it says on the tin.
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    • Profile picture of the author rkcc4
      Actually to correct myself, some products can be sold on ebay for no refunds and some software can be activated online and switched off again.
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    I understand your desire to squash serial refunding Dave. I generally have no problem giving refunds. Some requests may be legit and some are just scammers wanting things for free. The way I look at it is that if a professional refunder buys and then asks for a refund right away after downloading--well, I look at that as a sale that never occurred anyway.

    Now, if you're selling a service or something that requires coaching or actual time spent with the customer that is a different matter. If I invest my time and expertise with someone and after getting that they ask for a refund that would get my dander up. I do not offer refunds for such things.

    I'd just look at someone like Sony. I can't even hazard a guess as to how many people download their music illegally online. And I'm sure it's an issue with them, but it's a part of doing business online. Sometimes we all need to bite the bullet, no matter how distasteful, and issue refunds whether the reason seems legit or not.

    Life's too short to chase everyone down who does you dirty online and kick their arse no matter how well deserved or satisfying it might be. Good Luck, Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
    Originally Posted by ECS Dave View Post

    Being as the WarriorForum is one of, if not the leading internet marketing forums around, I thought I'd see what kind of response I'd get to something I am considering.

    Please keep in mind that this is only something I am considering, and have NOT implemented it yet...Ultimately, at the end of the day, each business owner's refund policy is one that they, and their customers, are comfortable with.

    Thanks to all who reply with their intelligent observations...

    Be Well!
    ECS Dave
    Dave, my perception, as a consumer, would be that you are an arrogant ass and I'd be more than happy to oblige you by keeping my credit card in my pocket.

    First off, I can't see the value in the product itself until it's in my possession. I can only see the image of that value as built into your sales materials - and we all know sales letters never bend, stretch or otherwise distort the truth, right?

    Second, you're asking me to take your word that you only produce quality products and that your definition of 'quality' is equal to or superior to my own. Something I'm not quite ready to grant carte blanche...

    Bottom line, it's your business and you're free to set your policies. Your payment processor or the buyer's credit card company may not agree, but, hey, that's what the dispute process is for, right?

    I wrote this without reading the other replies, so that you got my honest reaction uncolored by the discussion. After I post this, I'm going to see how many people like your new policy...

    Edit:

    After reading the rest of the discussion up to this point, I stand by the content of my earlier comments, but I'd amend them to be a little less confrontational myself.

    It dawned on me that the wording of the policy reminded me a lot of an exchange I had with an ebook seller several years ago. I can't name names here, but it sounded a lot like "Zho Chumar"

    I bought his ebook, read it and requested a refund. He replied by accusing me of trying to steal his product by asking for a refund. BTW, Clickbank did give me the refund.

    "Zho's" tactics caught up with him when he oversold a rights package by several times the stated limit, then disappeared...

    And to be perfectly clear, the ONLY comparison I drawing is to the tone of the two pieces.
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    • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
      Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

      Dave, my perception, as a consumer, would be that you are an arrogant ass and I'd be more than happy to oblige you by keeping my credit card in my pocket.

      First off, I can't see the value in the product itself until it's in my possession. I can only see the image of that value as built into your sales materials - and we all know sales letters never bend, stretch or otherwise distort the truth, right?

      Second, you're asking me to take your word that you only produce quality products and that your definition of 'quality' is equal to or superior to my own. Something I'm not quite ready to grant carte blanche...

      Bottom line, it's your business and you're free to set your policies. Your payment processor or the buyer's credit card company may not agree, but, hey, that's what the dispute process is for, right?

      I wrote this without reading the other replies, so that you got my honest reaction uncolored by the discussion. After I post this, I'm going to see how many people like your new policy...

      Edit:

      After reading the rest of the discussion up to this point, I stand by the content of my earlier comments, but I'd amend them to be a little less confrontational myself.

      It dawned on me that the wording of the policy reminded me a lot of an exchange I had with an ebook seller several years ago. I can't name names here, but it sounded a lot like "Zho Chumar"

      I bought his ebook, read it and requested a refund. He replied by accusing me of trying to steal his product by asking for a refund. BTW, Clickbank did give me the refund.

      "Zho's" tactics caught up with him when he oversold a rights package by several times the stated limit, then disappeared...

      And to be perfectly clear, the ONLY comparison I drawing is to the tone of the two pieces.
      John,
      I recall this young fellow in fact he is often used as an example of a scammer by saying ah this guys a real"insert name" That fellow ruined his reputation and relationships it is a prime example of why not to use false scarcity
      thanks for that John
      -Will
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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

      ... "Zho's" tactics caught up with him when he oversold a rights package by several times the stated limit, then disappeared....
      Unfortunately, overselling copies seems to be the norm now days with fake scarcity especially on Clickbank products but that's for another topic.
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  • Profile picture of the author YoichiSpeaks
    If you don't allow your customers to easily refund your products, your business would fall off. Not just the fact that they complain but it also shows that your really not that confident about your product or service. Usually when people get refund is because their product or service wasn't up to par. So then the focus should be on refining your product or service. Customers are going to be your best friend because you are getting direct feedback for your business. Its about the business owner taking full responsibility in their sales and revenue and providing solution for the market. Unless you have a strong brand (I can disagree on this too but for example sake) its really not a smart decision to make your refund policy difficult for the customers. You can also get your refunding process outsource so you have time to focus on money producing activity instead of dealing with giving back the money you made.

    Its all up to what the business owner wants I guess.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kate C
    The policy seems too harsh. Even if you have a very good product, some people just experience buyers remorse and refund their purchases. If you implement such a harsh policy, people will wonder if you are hiding something bad about your product. They will assume you are protecting yourself in advance. You will not have many takers.If the product is really good, you have nothing to worry about. People will buy it and keep it. A few might refund, but that is the nature of this business.
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    • Profile picture of the author KEY
      so much good advice already...I just want to
      also recommend that you use a system that
      allows you to ban emails.

      just politely let people know that while you will
      honor their request for a refund, that if there is
      not a good explanation/reason for the refund that
      their email will be 'blocked' from making future
      purchases.

      as Steven mentioned...it is NOT worth the time
      and pain of dealing with PayPal, 2CO or whatever
      over a refund! if you 'pay' yourself well? you may
      lose more (virtual) money dickering over why you
      feel you should not refund the $$

      the effort is better spent getting more sales!
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  • Profile picture of the author Tasimiss
    You have every right to have your "refund policy" written how ever you like. I think a majority of buyers maybe put off with your policy as written. Personally I would prefer to have the opportunity to try it to see if it does what the SALES PAGE says it can/will do.
    Which brings me to another point which I believe can go along way to reducing refunds. An honest Sales Page, if I buy a product and it does what the sales page says it will do 95% of the time, I won't request a refund.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sardent
    Your policy is perhaps a bit too wordy.
    I understand the desire to soften the blow and maybe still catch a customer, but I've only seen one that came close. I saw one that said - "Since this is a digital product, there are regretfully no refunds that can be offered, as I am sure you understand, there is no way to remove the product from your brain once there."
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  • Profile picture of the author rkcc4
    It seems to me that if you have a problem with refunds then you have a problem with your product. Either you are not selling it right or the quality does not live up to the expectations of the buyer. Either the way these are YOUR problems.

    Perhaps you could split test the same product on two different domains, on one you have an the no refunds policy and on the other you go with the usual no questions asked 60 day.

    If you sell 100 packages and 20% request refunds, that is still 80 sales, if you sell 80 on the site with no refunds it is the same effort and result, although I suspect that the no refund site will have less.

    Makes me wonder if there is an expected refund rate for products?
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  • Profile picture of the author paulie888
    Dave, I think your proposed wording is a little too confrontational, and may potentially result in lost sales for you.

    Ultimately, I think you'll get better results if you offer an unconditional refund policy, but "qualify" your buyers in advance by telling them who this product isn't for, and list out what your product cannot accomplish - in other words, don't sound like you're eager for the sale at all costs; I feel this should cut down significantly on the "tire kickers" that buy products just to check them out.

    Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author wealthydon
    To me the percentage of people who refund to
    people who buy is negligible. So why bother?

    Instead, I would scout for more sales, increase
    my refund rate but make more profits in the end.
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      A vague, subjective, I'll give a refund if I decide to may not be legal. For example, in California Civil Code Section 1723 requires that refund conditions be stated.

      A policy of "what I decide" does not provide the consumer any meaningful information about conditions must be met.
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      • Profile picture of the author ECS Dave
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        Maybe I would have been better off putting my second observation in a new post instead of simply adding it to the first one as an edit...

        As the inestimable Maxwell Smart used to say, "Sorry about that, chief...
        "Quote:
        After reading the rest of the discussion up to this point, I stand by the content of my earlier comments, but I'd amend them to be a little less confrontational myself.

        It dawned on me that the wording of the policy reminded me a lot of an exchange I had with an ebook seller several years ago. I can't name names here, but it sounded a lot like "Zho Chumar"

        I bought his ebook, read it and requested a refund. He replied by accusing me of trying to steal his product by asking for a refund. BTW, Clickbank did give me the refund.

        "Zho's" tactics caught up with him when he oversold a rights package by several times the stated limit, then disappeared...

        And to be perfectly clear, the ONLY comparison I drawing is to the tone of the two pieces.
        I understand the comparison John, appreciate your insights too!

        As far as I can recall, I've never done what that person did, and don't intend to do so...
        Originally Posted by rickfrazier1 View Post

        Having tried to get a refund for a paypal purchase, I found that paypal won't side with you unless you plain and simple didn't get the product.

        Though it isn't stated in the same terms as ECS Dave, when you purchase a CD or DVD at your local store, you essentially get the same thing. Once you open it, it's yours, and not returnable.

        I like the softer wording provided by donhx and thought something on the lines of the following might work.

        "Because of the problem with copyrights on digital products, full refunds are not possible. However, we are happy to replace any defective product and appreciate feedback so we can improve our productys in the future."

        Of course, I'm likely to stick with a 60 day return policy, because with a good product and honest marketing, the returns are so low it doesn't really matter. Even a few serial returners don't matter in the long run. On the other hand, some products don't have low return rates. I think there is another thread with something like a 74% or 78% return rate...
        Rick, I read that thread too. It seems as though it was predicated on "educated" guesses though, and as I mentioned earlier on, I'm "enjoying" a less than 15% rate, so far...
        Originally Posted by YoichiSpeaks View Post

        If you don't allow your customers to easily refund your products, your business would fall off. Not just the fact that they complain but it also shows that your really not that confident about your product or service. Usually when people get refund is because their product or service wasn't up to par. So then the focus should be on refining your product or service. Customers are going to be your best friend because you are getting direct feedback for your business. Its about the business owner taking full responsibility in their sales and revenue and providing solution for the market. Unless you have a strong brand (I can disagree on this too but for example sake) its really not a smart decision to make your refund policy difficult for the customers. You can also get your refunding process outsource so you have time to focus on money producing activity instead of dealing with giving back the money you made.

        Its all up to what the business owner wants I guess.
        I'll say this, unless I feel a potential customer would benefit from an offer I've made, I won't make it...
        Originally Posted by Kate C View Post

        The policy seems too harsh. Even if you have a very good product, some people just experience buyers remorse and refund their purchases. If you implement such a harsh policy, people will wonder if you are hiding something bad about your product. They will assume you are protecting yourself in advance. You will not have many takers.If the product is really good, you have nothing to worry about. People will buy it and keep it. A few might refund, but that is the nature of this business.
        There are more than a few who agree with you that what I was considering sounds "harsh" or "confrontational". Again, I'll remind everyone that it is only something being "considered", and not yet (if ever) implemented...
        Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

        John,
        I recall this young fellow in fact he is often used as an example of a scammer by saying ah this guys a real"insert name" That fellow ruined his reputation and relationships it is a prime example of why not to use false scarcity
        thanks for that John
        -Will
        About the only time I've used (or will use) a scarcity tactic, would be in relation to a special pricing offer...
        Originally Posted by KEY View Post

        so much good advice already...I just want to
        also recommend that you use a system that
        allows you to ban emails.

        just politely let people know that while you will
        honor their request for a refund, that if there is
        not a good explanation/reason for the refund that
        their email will be 'blocked' from making future
        purchases.

        as Steven mentioned...it is NOT worth the time
        and pain of dealing with PayPal, 2CO or whatever
        over a refund! if you 'pay' yourself well? you may
        lose more (virtual) money dickering over why you
        feel you should not refund the $$

        the effort is better spent getting more sales!
        Certainly something to consider, the blocking of emails... However, and not meaning to say such a thing wouldn't have its place, but consider that email address creation is quite easy...
        Originally Posted by Tasimiss View Post

        You have every right to have your "refund policy" written how ever you like. I think a majority of buyers maybe put off with your policy as written. Personally I would prefer to have the opportunity to try it to see if it does what the SALES PAGE says it can/will do.
        Which brings me to another point which I believe can go along way to reducing refunds. An honest Sales Page, if I buy a product and it does what the sales page says it will do 95% of the time, I won't request a refund.
        In all my offers, I strive for an "Honest" sales page...
        Originally Posted by Sardent View Post

        Your policy is perhaps a bit too wordy.
        I understand the desire to soften the blow and maybe still catch a customer, but I've only seen one that came close. I saw one that said - "Since this is a digital product, there are regretfully no refunds that can be offered, as I am sure you understand, there is no way to remove the product from your brain once there."
        Good one Sardent!
        Originally Posted by rkcc4 View Post

        It seems to me that if you have a problem with refunds then you have a problem with your product. Either you are not selling it right or the quality does not live up to the expectations of the buyer. Either the way these are YOUR problems.

        Perhaps you could split test the same product on two different domains, on one you have an the no refunds policy and on the other you go with the usual no questions asked 60 day.

        If you sell 100 packages and 20% request refunds, that is still 80 sales, if you sell 80 on the site with no refunds it is the same effort and result, although I suspect that the no refund site will have less.

        Makes me wonder if there is an expected refund rate for products?
        Again, I don't have a problem with refunds... However, your comment is appreciated!
        Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

        Dave, I think your proposed wording is a little too confrontational, and may potentially result in lost sales for you.

        Ultimately, I think you'll get better results if you offer an unconditional refund policy, but "qualify" your buyers in advance by telling them who this product isn't for, and list out what your product cannot accomplish - in other words, don't sound like you're eager for the sale at all costs; I feel this should cut down significantly on the "tire kickers" that buy products just to check them out.

        Paul
        Thanks Paul, your thoughts are certainly worthy of consideration...
        Originally Posted by wealthydon View Post

        To me the percentage of people who refund to
        people who buy is negligible. So why bother?

        Instead, I would scout for more sales, increase
        my refund rate but make more profits in the end.
        Also something to consider there...
        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        A vague, subjective, I'll give a refund if I decide to may not be legal. For example, in California Civil Code Section 1723 requires that refund conditions be stated.

        A policy: what I decide does not provide any meaningful information about conditions must be med.
        Hmmm, I may have to look into that...

        Thanks again to all have taken to time to express their thoughts, and I hope to continue to learn from more...

        Be Well!
        ECS Dave
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  • Profile picture of the author warriormaiden
    People should read the Terms first before signing up to avoid unnecessary inconveniences. Also, helps the vendors from headaches and customer asking for a refund.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    I apoloigize for temporarily highjacking this thread, but wanted to take a moment to say thanks to ECS Dave.

    THIS whole thread is a perfect example of somebody asking for opinions, and NOT getting bent out of shape when people seem to be jumping on him.

    If more of us could keep the tone similar to that of this thread, I think the WF would be an even better place, AND we would focus less on ego and "proof" and more on getting real stuff done.

    </highjack>

    All the best,
    Michael
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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    • Profile picture of the author ECS Dave
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      I apoloigize for temporarily highjacking this thread, but wanted to take a moment to say thanks to ECS Dave.

      THIS whole thread is a perfect example of somebody asking for opinions, and NOT getting bent out of shape when people seem to be jumping on him.

      If more of us could keep the tone similar to that of this thread, I think the WF would be an even better place, AND we would focus less on ego and "proof" and more on getting real stuff done.

      </highjack>

      All the best,
      Michael
      Well Michael, it seems as if your "hijack" shut everyone up, LOL!

      Hopefully those who encounter this thread now, and into the future, will learn as much from it as I have...

      Thanks again to all!

      Be Well!
      ECS Dave

      P.S. Still considering what to have as a refund policy....
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      • Profile picture of the author paulie888
        Originally Posted by ECS Dave View Post

        Well Michael, it seems as if your "hijack" shut everyone up, LOL!

        Hopefully those who encounter this thread now, and into the future, will learn as much from it as I have...

        Thanks again to all!

        Be Well!
        ECS Dave

        P.S. Still considering what to have as a refund policy....
        Dave, you've shown admirable poise and graciousness in the midst of all the sometimes strong opinions thrown about in this thread. You've shown model OP behavior, and this is how they should conduct themselves, especially if they start a thread in here seeking advice! After all, what you want to get is constructive advice, and not a whole slew of "yes, you're right" type posters agreeing with you - this is not meant to be a feel-good thread!

        Paul
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