Illinois Amazon Pull Out

14 years ago

This is just the start of a scenario we will see repeated in many states where they are deciding between cutting essential services like police and fire, and increasing taxes. In some cases they have to do both.

On the flip side, take a city like Oakland that is already the worst big city for crime having to cut their police force down.

2011 will be a challenging year for state and local governments. The federal government keeping taxes so low with the Bush tax cuts and two wars has even less money to help the states. Mostly the states are on their own.

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Michael Curran Smith 14 years ago

Agreed.

I don't mind paying higher income taxes for a few years, truly I don't. We need 16 Billion dollars to keep the state running.

But, this internet tax and higher corporate tax rate is RI-DIC-U-LOUS!!!

All that business is going to leave the state and then you have no tax base. Nice going, Quinn (feeling of disgust swelling in my belly).

I'm looking to the tea party for real leadership...and I have absolutely no respect or love for folks like Palin. Crazy world. Maybe Rand Paul is my guy, we'll see.

I think this internet tax law is going to the Supreme Court within 12 - 24 months. My two pennies.
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Dave Rodman Banned 14 years ago

Well, I'm upset as well. But I doubt this will do much to turn the state from Blue to Red. Most people won't even notice.

Amazon wouldn't do this, but it would've been interesting to see if the public reacted a little more by just keeping the affiliates in the state, charging residents sales tax, and then putting a message at checkout that say something like "Due to a recent bill signed by Govenor Quinn, IL residents are required to pay sales tax on Amazon purchases". At least more people would notice it. But, that's not good business sense for Amazon. I'm sure they enjoy depriving them of revenue.
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imon32red

14 years ago

Originally Posted by dvduval

2011 will be a challenging year for state and local governments. The federal government keeping taxes so low with the Bush tax cuts and two wars has even less money to help the states. Mostly the states are on their own.

Actually more than half of the Federal budget goes to "entitlement programs".

If you add military spending to that number it comes out to about 86% of the federal budget. That doesn't leave much to work with. In lean economic years states, cities and counties suffer the most.

The two most prominent thoughts on increasing the tax base is to either increase taxes to cover the shortages, or decrease taxes to stimulate business growth thereby increasing tax revenue. In theory increasing taxes decreases the capital that businesses have which stifles growth.

Increasing taxes also increases the likelihood that businesses will relocate to other states or countries where taxes are more favorable.

I am not going to touch the war comment, because it is too much of a political area.

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dvduval

14 years ago

Originally Posted by imon32red

Actually more than half of the Federal budget goes to "entitlement programs".

If you add military spending to that number it comes out to about 86% of the federal budget. That doesn't leave much to work with. In lean economic years states, cities and counties suffer the most

And states like Illinois gave more to the federal government than they received. The same applies to California and New York. Your state of Utah has done quite well, receiving more than it paid out. The same would apply to the Southeast (link).

This has been going on like this for many years, and Illinois has paid more than their share. Then when it comes to these entitlement programs that help the people of Illinois, there is nothing for them when times get lean.

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evollusion

14 years ago

The states that continue to raise taxes more and more will continue to become more and more blue. The business owners and more well off individuals will move to states like Texas (WHOOP!) and Florida where there is no income tax, and stronger protections against frivolous lawsuits. One day these states that are overtaxing their citizens will find themselves in the awkward position of cooking the goose that lays the golden egg. My fear is that these states will then attempt to force the federal government to levy taxes on the states themselves to further prop up these states that can't seem to get their financial affairs in order.

It honestly is sad to see the states balkanized in this manner (and make no mistake, there is a balkanization going on here in the US), but that's just the way things go I guess.

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dvduval

14 years ago

Originally Posted by evollusion

The states that continue to raise taxes more and more will continue to become more and more blue. The business owners and more well off individuals will move to states like Texas (WHOOP!) and Florida where there is no income tax, and stronger protections against frivolous lawsuits. One day these states that are overtaxing their citizens will find themselves in the awkward position of cooking the goose that lays the golden egg. My fear is that these states will then attempt to force the federal government to levy taxes on the states themselves to further prop up these states that can't seem to get their financial affairs in order.

It honestly is sad to see the states balkanized in this manner (and make no mistake, there is a balkanization going on here in the US), but that's just the way things go I guess.

Yea, but what do you think are the main business centers of the United States? Clearly it is places like New York City, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Washington DC, etc. Nothing is going to change that anytime soon. All that will happen is businesses will find loopholes like running an office through low tax states or even island nations.

The problem is more about the number of loopholes where larger business can easily get around paying taxes while smaller businesses take up the slack and often fail as a result.

Powerful people are lobbying to create laws to hold their power, and doing a great job of it.

What is going on in Illinois is just one of the many side shows that ignores the elephant in the room (the rich having a stranglehold on power).

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imon32red

14 years ago

Originally Posted by dvduval

Yea, but what do you think are the main business centers of the United States? Clearly it is places like New York City, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Washington DC, etc. Nothing is going to change that anytime soon. All that will happen is businesses will find loopholes like running an office through low tax states or even island nations.

The problem is more about the number of loopholes where larger business can easily get around paying taxes while smaller businesses take up the slack and often fail as a result.

Powerful people are lobbying to create laws to hold their power, and doing a great job of it.

What is going on in Illinois is just one of the many side shows that ignores the elephant in the room (the rich having a stranglehold on power).

I think this is a good description of what is going on. You point the finger at the rich, I think more of the problem lies with the politicians.

Politicians have written the tax code to favor the rich and big businesses. They are more concerned with getting themselves reelected than doing what is best for the people.

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dvduval

14 years ago

Originally Posted by imon32red

I think this is a good description of what is going on. You point the finger at the rich, I think more of the problem lies with the politicians.

Politicians have written the tax code to favor the rich and big businesses. They are more concerned with getting themselves reelected than doing what is best for the people.

You can't really separate the two. Politicians and rich people work together to create the laws under the current system.

Then we have a media that helps convince people to vote for things that will actually hurt them, as well as frustrate people into believing they can't make a difference.

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newimguy 14 years ago

I really feel laws like this get passed because politicians don't understand the Internet. There are no benefits to passing this law. Amazon will just pull out and drop affiliates. No additional tax revenue.
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- bgmacaw 14 years ago
  
  If you live in Chicago, it sounds like it's time to change neighborhoods...
  
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imon32red 14 years ago

Originally Posted by dvduval

Your state of Utah has done quite well, receiving more than it paid out. (link).

While this is true, the numbers don't mean much. Utah is actually on the shallow end of the receiving pool.

Instead of spending money received from the Federal government where there are actual needs, it is instead spent where the Federal Government demands. This usually means spending money on interstate highways or similar projects. Although this has kept us slightly ahead of other Western Cities gridlocks like Seattle or Los Angeles and kept interstate traffic moving at 75 mph, many people feel that at least some of the money should have been spent on more immediate concerns such as education.
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Dave Rodman

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by dvduval

2011 will be a challenging year for state and local governments. The federal government keeping taxes so low with the Bush tax cuts and two wars has even less money to help the states. Mostly the states are on their own.

I don't think you have the full picture. My wife is a teacher in the state of IL and even I, a beneficiary of the pension system, realize that it needs to be reformed.

You contribute 11% of your salary to the state pension, you max out at 33 years (55 years old for most teachers), and your pension is 75% of your HIGHEST 3 years salary.

If you want to fix the budget, you'd make pensions based off the average of your salary WHILE YOU WERE CONTRIBUTING. For my wife, for example, that would mean an annual pension of $47K vs. $71K under the current system.

It not only helps the budget, but it's the fair way to do it.

And this problem is multiplied by every state employee.

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Rob Howard

14 years ago

Has Quinn actually signed the bill or did Amazon say "f-it" and just pull out anyway?

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Michael Curran Smith 14 years ago

Hey, Rob. Big fan of your products, btw.

Quinn signed the bill with the internet tax law inside of it today (12th), goes into effect in July.

Amazon said they would pull out, and they have NEVER said that and not pulled out. It's going to happen.

Similar laws now exist in Colorado, New York, North Carolina, and Rhode Island. 12 states have vetoed similar legislation including California -- the Governator.

Yeah, I've been researching.

P.S. Dust off the old EPN account...or sign up for one...ha.
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- Rob Howard 14 years ago
  
  Welp, that just settled a major decision for us.
  
  Bekah and I, we're moving to Montana in June.
  
  Rob
  
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  tchoup 14 years ago
  
  Found this from an article on Internetbits.com, hopefully other state will start dropping this policy:
  Other states including Colorado, New York, North Carolina and Rhode Island have all passed similar laws, but have not seen the large amounts of revenue they expected. Instead, merchants severed relationships with affiliates in the states, prompting 12 other states to discard similar bills.
  
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  imon32red 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by ccmusicman
  
  Welp, that just settled a major decision for us.
  
  Bekah and I, we're moving to Montana in June.
  
  Rob
  
  If only I could convince my wife to do the same. It is beautiful up there.
  
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  Michael Curran Smith 14 years ago
  
  Terms limits for every office in the land...anybody agree??
  
  No corporate gifting EVER for any election?? No corporate "consulting" fees, etc. No BS.
  
  I sometimes think the Founding Fathers are rolling around in their graves.
  
  I've been thinking about organizing a political movement that just wants to achieve the above two goals -- term limits, and no corporate money in elections.
  
  If a political candidate doesn't support and more importantly VOTE for legislation for these two issues...we vote them out next term.
  
  That simple.
  
  Back to citizen government...no more career politicians and no more corporate back room BS...
  
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- maverick4u 14 years ago
  
  Similar laws now exist in Colorado, New York, North Carolina, and Rhode Island. 12 states have vetoed similar legislation including California -- the Governator.
  
  And in all the states where they enacted the ridiculous internet tax law Amazon pulled out correct?
  
  I also sent Governor Quinn an email imploring him not to sign into law this internet tax scheme. All its going to do is cause more unemployment and worsen the state's economic downturn. Ever noticed how the state never has enough money? It's because they don't PRODUCE anything. They just take, and take and take.
  
  Government is the myth where one half of the population tries to live off the efforts of the other half.
  
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Rob Howard

14 years ago

Ok, I was just looking and there are 2 bills here.

The first is the Sales tax law that affects our business - this is the one Amazon is threatening to pull the plug.

That bill hasn't been signed yet.

The bill that WAS signed was the Income Tax bill, which raises taxes by 66% (still sucks, but is a different bill)

Governor Quinn has 60 days to sign the other bill, which has been sitting on his desk for a few days I believe.

The letter we've all received from Amazon is that they will pull out when Quinn signs it. If he veto's, there is no worry.

So keep calling and bugging the crap out of him - tell him NO - don't sign it. There are major repercussions for a lot of people.

Rob

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tijja 14 years ago

Originally Posted by ccmusicman

So keep calling and bugging the crap out of him - tell him NO - don't sign it. There are major repercussions for a lot of people.

Rob

Yes, get vocal and put a face to this problem! I watch this stuff very closely (I am in Ohio) because Amazon pays my mortgage and a large chuck of my monthly bills. These legislators need to know that they are dealing a death blow to small home based businesses when they pass this short sighted garbage.
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- Michael Curran Smith 14 years ago
  
  Rob, thanks for clarifying that. It seems that my source jumped the gun on this one!
  
  My Dad, who's retired emailed me this morning because we were talking about this bill over the weekend -- guess he is wrong. Getting old...er.
  
  You know what, I think Quinn will sign it regardless, to me it's just a matter of time. But, that is just my opinion.
  
  Sorry for giving anybody a heart attack...but I really think it's coming and fast.
  
  Ouch.
  
  Garage Mike
  
  P.S. Rob you're close to Springfield...we could use a good lobby!!!
  
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Jillycakes

14 years ago

This really stinks, and I hope he vetoes it. I actually had to move out of Illinois when all the jobs left my area (before I found the wonderful world of IM, of course). Now that I'm finally getting ready to move back, this crap comes along lol.

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SEOFocused

14 years ago

Torono cops are just writing more and more tickets to motorists to generate revenue for the city. (this started since Harper became the PM and this jackass also introduced 13% HST so whatever we buy here, we will have to pay 13% tax. this is costing average household about $800 extra in sales tax per year). almost every turn i make, i see one police car on my ass. well there is no shortage of cops here in Toronto region, thats for sure. specially since they make their own salaries by writing tickets and then some

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Bruce NewMedia

14 years ago

I agree, Quinn will probably sign it, as his constituency doesn't care about this kind of issue.

They vote for democrats to maintain or increase benefit payments. IL has slowly turned from a red to a blue state, and now I believe almost every state office is dem controlled. Public pensions will cause an ever rising tax rate, even as the retired teachers and others, move out of IL as soon as THEIR pension kicks in! (they're smart!)

I got emails on this from Perry Marshall (who lives in my old town of Oak Park, IL) and sent emails (along with many others) to the governor's website but that won't change anything. On my list of things to join this year was Amazon - scratch that.
_____
Bruce

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DennisM

14 years ago

Originally Posted by brucerby

I agree, Quinn will probably sign it, as his constituency doesn't care about this kind of issue.

They vote for democrats to maintain or increase benefit payments. IL has slowly turned from a red to a blue state, and now I believe almost every state office is dem controlled. Public pensions will cause an ever rising tax rate, even as the retired teachers and others, move out of IL as soon as THEIR pension kicks in! (they're smart!)

I got emails on this from Perry Marshall (who lives in my old town of Oak Park, IL) and sent emails (along with many others) to the governor's website but that won't change anything. On my list of things to join this year was Amazon - scratch that.
_____
Bruce

Bruce,

Wow, Oak Park? I grew up in Berwyn. Lived right near Buona Beef. The best beef sandwiches in Chicago! :-)

I'm in the south suburbs of Chicago now.

Dennis

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remodeler

14 years ago

It's NOT over until it's actually signed. There is still time to make your voice heard. Words have power, whether used positively or negatively. Now is the time to use them positively.

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Michael Curran Smith 14 years ago

Good advice, remodeler. I have already sent two angry emails to Dr. Quinn Medicine Man.

Anybody who's in Illinois please do the same!
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- Dave Rodman Banned 14 years ago
  
  Article on the front page of the tribune today says that the Income tax hike pretty much wipes out the savings on the Payroll tax cut. Geez.
  
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DennisM

14 years ago

Even Rod Blagojevich would not sign this internet tax law!

What really fries me is the spineless Michael Madigan, Illinois speaker of the house. It was funny when they showed him trying to run from the media on last night's local news.

Pat Quinn is a liar! Not only does he say he would not endorse a tax increase during his campaign just a few short months ago, he has the nerve to "thank" the IL legislature for performing this hard task of passing the law. Now we're stuck with this tool for 4 years.

I may get flamed for this but what's ridiculous is the teachers pension. Then you have local school boards padding teachers and administrator salaires in their last year before retiring so they qualify for the higher pension. It's sick really.

I say bankrupt the teachers pension. If it's OK for General Motors then everyone else is fair game. I hate Unions but I'll shut up.

Dennis

PS: Garage Mike, as Seth Godin states "start your own tribe". I'm with you, term limits and no corporate money!

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Michael Curran Smith 14 years ago

Awesome Dennis...I will keep you informed, if I can stop working 100 hr weeks.

Btw, my ex girlfriend lives in LaGrange so I used to bust on through Berwyn all the time. Love Berwyn -- Cermak is a Mexican food mecca for me.

Garage Mike
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Illinois Amazon Pull Out

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