The Flood Of Crap-Offers To The Market

170 replies
Dear anyone-who-cares-about-the-Internet-Marketing-marketplace,

(Just in case you don't realize this yet)

I'm not here to lecture anyone or tell anyone what they
should or should not do with their time, energy and resources,
but for anyone who cares, I've got something to say.

I've seen countless crap offers flood our market this past
year, full of hype, fake screen shots, vague as heck salesletters
(blind copy), outrageous claims and big bold lies. You've seen
them, it's been stated already, others have complained, etc

Is it risky for me to state my opinion?? More than you will
ever know!

But you know what? I really don't care. You don't see me
ever promoting lies like that. Sure, I'm not perfect by any
stretch, but I'm nowhere close to being a bold-faced liar
like we are seeing flooding our marketplace.

It's ruining the market and many big marketers are looking
to NOT share their knowledge anymore because of it. I've
learned some amazing insights from some of these big marketers
I'm talking about and it's a damn shame they are quietly
leaving because they want no part of the mess that this
market is becoming.

Meanwhile, there are plenty of legitimate and successful
marketers who walk-the-talk out there as well. I cannot
speak for them, but I can tell you many of the one's I talk
to are getting pretty sick of those scam-offers.

But, there's a sad part to this entire thing.

The sad thing is, most of the market is grabbing those
crap offers and then refunding to the tune of 50-60% or
higher!

A. That's crazy refund percentages and borders on fraud IMO

B. Why in the world are people buying-this-stuff?

C. They don't care if the refund rates are that high, they
still are making fortunes.


If a launch does 1 million and has a 60% refund rate, they
still have a big new list and still earn 400k (not too shabby)

So, they hype up a salesletter/video, keep it vague, get high
EPC's for JVers (at first) and all looks great. But then,
the refunds hit and the REAL conversions are just an illusion
for the JVers.

Because it's so vague (blind copy), people buy on sizzle alone
thinking "if it sucks, I'll just get a refund. I'll buy just
to see what this is, just in case"

And that's the entire model.

Lots' of up-sells, and tons of exit pops, promises for future
delivery (to prevent refunds by having customers looking
forward to the real juice that's to come, but never does)

Sure, there's blind copy and always has been, but the real
problem here is the value! There is none. Plus, the lies.
Fake screen shots and outright deception.

Look, I could easily go-with-the-flow if I wanted to and
also provide such BS offers. I'm a professional copywriter
and doing that is easy as can be (ask any copywriter). I could
hype up something and sell the snot out of it and make all
my JV friends big-bucks producing such copy.

But I wont.

Sorry.

I have to say, this has been eating at me for a long time,
and I'm not alone. Most don't want to damage themselves by
saying anything and getting attacked themselves in the
process (easy target when a marketer is complaining about
others marketing strategies... one can easily say, 'what
about you, what about that time you...')

But I have faith that there's an army of people in this
market who feel and think exactly like I do about this. I'm
not just talking about "buyers" or "newbies" in this
market, but other marketers who "teach" as well.

Heck, maybe I'm wrong and maybe I'm just out here on an
island finally getting tired of seeing crap-BS offers. Maybe
I should just zip it and let everything be as is. Who
am I to judge or say anything?

Sure, there are plenty of people who are in other niches
and could care less. But, there are still plenty in
this niche in some form or fashion who really are flat
sick of it. There's got to be.

Lastly, IMO, I'd predict if this continues (the scam offers),
then this market will be severely damaged and anyone
who actually does "walk the talk" and the legitimate
marketers will all start fading away into other things.

In setting my goals and dreams for 2011 and beyond,
I thought long and hard on if I should focus completely
on other niche markets and businesses and leave this
market... or continue on.

Preferably, there's nothing I enjoy talking about more
in my life than Internet Marketing, and it can be an
exciting, fun and lucrative market to be in, indeed.

But, I'm afraid if the market is going to be ruined
by such bold-lies and deception as it's becoming, it
just cant function like that. I don't think it can
be sustained for long like that. Eventually, the market
will "shake-out" and the critical mass will avoid
those scam-type-offers like crazy.

Ok, so I obviously have put myself in a great position
to get flamed by those who see an opportunity to attack
me (there's plenty here)... and am up on the punching
block with this post. So be it. I feel better getting
this off my chest already anyway.

My advice is to learn from those who walk the talk,
not the fake Internet names who are pounding the
market with crap offers and fake screen-shots.

Learn to drive traffic, build a list, brand yourself,
create value and distribute value to your market. Create
real businesses and passive income. Treat people well.

Obviously my little post here will do little good,
but for the few who read it, it could help. If anything,
I feel better for saying it on the record.

As far as those JVers out there who are promoting this
stuff, soon you'll have to make a choice... either
be with us, or be with the crap-offer-CB-group. I made
my choice and have said it publicly.

Thanks!

Eric Louviere
#crapoffers #flood #market
  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    All I have to say about that is... yep

    OK, I'll say more. This exact thing has been bugging me, too. I guess to a certain extent it's human nature at play. A significant % of people have no qualms with lying or over-hyping to make more sales. Their only consideration is the bottom line. Good for them. They make more money. Yeah rah. It's freaking sad to be that kind of human being, but what's worse is that they are able to do it over and over again because there are so many desperate and naive buyers in this niche. I'm beginning to think it's a mental disorder.

    John
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182628].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author mattgill
    What are you thinking dude? You are going to get flamed like a marshmallow in the fire, and attacked like justin beber at 7th grade slumber party!

    For standing up and telling it like it is.

    For exposing the truth about the lies.

    But who cares what those people and those who defend them think.

    Bravo!

    Well said.

    I'm with you doot.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182648].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author George Sepich
    Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

    Dear anyone-who-cares-about-the-Internet-Marketing-marketplace,

    Learn to drive traffic, build a list, brand yourself,
    create value and distribute value to your market. Create
    real businesses and passive income. Treat people well.

    Eric, I think the one paragraph quote above sums it all up. If everyone would just follow those few simple guidelines, most of these problems would disappear fairly quickly.

    Great post Eric. Powerful words. I agree with everything you said.

    George
    Signature

    Need Help? GeorgeSepich.com Digital Marketing Solutions From George Sepich.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182652].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Nancy Radlinger
      Originally Posted by George Sepich View Post

      Eric, I think the one paragraph quote above sums it all up. If everyone would just follow those few simple guidelines, most of these problems would disappear fairly quickly.

      Great post Eric. Powerful words. I agree with everything you said.

      George
      Oh as I read thru all that - this is the paragraph that stuck out to me also - well said
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3209864].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Paulie888,

        Some will perhaps rationalize it as selling useful information to newbies
        I agree with your points, and the quote above highlights the area that I think is most fascinating.

        In the 'real world', we have spin-doctors who are probably very well paid and are undoubtedly highly skilled manipulators/persuaders.

        We see some interesting examples of people 'rationalising' in IM as they make the transition from ethical to unethical.

        'Well there's a refund policy, so what's the problem?' (So there is no other loss involved with refunding then? Time, motivation, damage to market in general etc.)

        'They should have read the small print.' (Is there any greater admission of planned unethical behaviour than this? If not, why IS the print smaller?)

        'When I buy a product, if I find one small nugget of gold I run with it.' (Is this how it is sold? - 'mainly rehashed, but sure to contain some great nuggets of originality and worth.'')

        This list is not exhaustive - I could actually write a book of examples!

        These 'justifications' don't change anything or convince many. They are used by sellers to ease their conscience so that they can enable themselves to carry on in the same manner.

        There is a line and we all know when we have crossed it, unless we use our persuasion skills on ourselves via 'justification' to pretend to ourselves that we haven't crossed it.
        Signature


        Roger Davis

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3210009].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

          Hi Paulie888,

          I agree with your points, and the quote above highlights the area that I think is most fascinating.

          In the 'real world', we have spin-doctors who are probably very well paid and are undoubtedly highly skilled manipulators/persuaders.

          We see some interesting examples of people 'rationalising' in IM as they make the transition from ethical to unethical.

          'Well there's a refund policy, so what's the problem?' (So there is no other loss involved with refunding then? Time, motivation, damage to market in general etc.)

          'They should have read the small print.' (Is there any greater admission of planned unethical behaviour than this? If not, why IS the print smaller?)

          'When I buy a product, if I find one small nugget of gold I run with it.' (Is this how it is sold? - 'mainly rehashed, but sure to contain some great nuggets of originality and worth.'')

          This list is not exhaustive - I could actually write a book of examples!

          These 'justifications' don't change anything or convince many. They are used by sellers to ease their conscience so that they can enable themselves to carry on in the same manner.

          There is a line and we all know when we have crossed it, unless we use our persuasion skills on ourselves via 'justification' to pretend to ourselves that we haven't crossed it.
          Roger, as I was reading through your 'justifications' several more spontaneously came to mind, and it's amazing how well these marketers assuage their conscience by creating these 'justifications' for themselves.

          For some, the boundaries may have become so blurred that they may even end up truly convincing themselves about the value of their actions, being the expert persuaders/manipulators that they are.

          Paul
          Signature
          >>> Features Jason Fladlien, John S. Rhodes, Justin Brooke, Sean I. Mitchell, Reed Floren and Brad Gosse! <<<
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3210055].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    I don't know if this will help, at all, but my guess this has been going
    on since the first _____ was sold/bartered who knows how many thousand
    years ago.

    Maybe some perspective?

    Yes, John, it is human nature, or within the scope of what is possible in
    human nature.


    Ken
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182657].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author coffeyucf
      I agree. Good post. A $37 or $39 product shouldn't have a refund rate 40-50% range. My experience is at that price point it's more around 10%. Maybe as high as 20% if the promo is over the top.

      So you have to be really selling crap to get those type of refund rates.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182689].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Eric,

        either be with us, or be with the crap-offer-CB-group
        Are you only referring to the CB stuff?

        Or are you including everything that's of the same ilk - for example, boiler-room telesales operations?
        Signature


        Roger Davis

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182697].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
          ahh the truth! Good stuff man. The really sad part about it is that so many people buy into it and lose more money than they will ever make. I'd love to say Karma will get them, but there's been so many people get away with it that it's not even funny. I just hope that somewhere down the line they get what they deserve. We can only hope there will be enough people to "split" the crowd some time soon.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182723].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
          Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

          Hi Eric,



          Are you only referring to the CB stuff?

          Or are you including everything that's of the same ilk - for example, boiler-room telesales operations?
          Hey Roger,

          If they dont provide value and are just sticking it to people, then yeah, them too. I have a VIP who told me he spent over $6,000 on a program and spent over six months trying to get his money back... and never did, just gave up.

          I asked him what did they provide him for that 6k and he said nothing. a website that was never provided and no coaching or anything. That's just taking people's money and running. It's wrong.

          But, 1on1's and high quality training... sure, that can be very valuable for some and help them boost their careers. It just depends I guess on value.

          But, I'm not saying call centers are to blame. Selling people over the phone is one thing, killing them on not providing value or refunds is another. Lastly, I know you've always been one to often debate me on my posts, but just this time, hopefully you'll agree.

          Eric
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182749].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
          Banned
          I have heard A LOT more from marketers I respect that the IM game has just totally gone to crap. Recently I heard it from Perry Marshall, Joel Comm, and Yanik Silver.

          It seems like most of the people that you'd want to learn from have moved a little higher up on the value chain, they don't necessarily want to sell $97 products to people who need to make $5K in the next week.

          I didn't know if I was getting nostalgic about when I started in IM, but it definitely seems a lot different than even 5 years ago.

          So what do we have now? We have 1000x the products, higher prices, bigger promises....and I bet the failure rate is about the same, or maybe higher.

          It reminds me of somethng Andy Jenkins said in an interview with Ken McCarthy. And that is that when he started, nobody knew how to use autoresponders, setup shopping carts, use adwords, or sell online. And even with all the extra stuff out there, he thinks the success rate is about the same.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182756].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Lazy
    You're right, but let the market sort it out. If a product is crap, people will say so, and if a person consistently puts out crap, then the market will react appropriately
    Signature
    WARRIORS ONLY: Get up to 100,000 verified high PR backlinks as soon as tomorrow! RAVE REVIEWS!

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182758].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
      Originally Posted by Lazy View Post

      You're right, but let the market sort it out. If a product is crap, people will say so, and if a person consistently puts out crap, then the market will react appropriately
      They use fake names. they use voice overs. One person launches XtremeBS under the name Bob and then launches BlackExtremeBS under the name Rich... and so on. Therefore, if the market sees Bob is a scammer, they dont pick up that Rich is also Bob or part of the same BS group.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182782].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author daangertenaar
        This comment made me laugh haha "blackextremebs'', but you're right, this is the truth. I've seen so many vendors do this, they also do this with their email list. First they are Johnny, next week they are Guru Girl.
        Signature

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183562].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sam England
      Originally Posted by Lazy View Post

      You're right, but let the market sort it out. If a product is crap, people will say so, and if a person consistently puts out crap, then the market will react appropriately
      Yes the market will figure it out...in time...but in the process a lot of us honest marketers will more than likely be effected in some way or another...
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182810].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author CyberSorcerer
      Erik I'm right with you man,

      But I could also say that value is in the eye's of the beholder. Out of the courses/coaching available on the internet, not every newbie that comes along to each one will be able to put it into practice. It's no different than a classroom of kids, every kids is in math class and the teacher is teaching the same thing to each kid, but not every kid will learn at the same rate and some will not learn at all.

      So for those that don't learn and hit the forum boards, chat rooms, etc, complaining so-and-so is a scam artist, his course doesn't work, etc. What's to be said about that?

      Originally Posted by Lazy View Post

      You're right, but let the market sort it out. If a product is crap, people will say so, and if a person consistently puts out crap, then the market will react appropriately
      Not necessarily; because, there will be a large percentage that WILL NOT hit the forum boards or chat rooms complaining, because, they don't want to get flamed. They also don't know enough about IM to back themselves up when they do start getting flamed.

      As for those that do know what their talking about, most of them fall into this category too. NO ONE, likes to look like the bad guy in front of others that might think differently. Also no one wants to get into an argument match with another product owner, in front of everyone else, either.

      There are other reasons that word might not spread as quickly as you'd expect but I won't take the time to cover them all. I've probably already typed to much as it is.

      But I do applaud you for mentioning this topic and bringing it to light. As well as the others that have agreed with you too.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183665].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Brent Reader
        Quite the manifesto. Well stated.
        Signature

        Brent

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183690].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Ray Erdmann
        The high refund rates aren't 100% due to the product being shoddy....most of the blame should go to the person who WROTE the sales copy and over-hyped the product to the point that once the product was purchased, you sat there thinking....

        "This isn't what the sales page indicated!"

        OR

        "I asked for a refund because the product didn't live up to the sales page"

        OR

        "Once again, the sales page over-hyped the product and though the product is ok, there's no way anyone could make this kind of money on only "x" amount of time!"

        And I've heard similar comments here on this very forum!

        So, let's not all just jump on the bandwagon of hating on the shoddy product owners...but let us also start telling the copywriters to provide some 'truth', 'honesty' and 'integrity' as well...and not just point fingers at one side of the problem!
        Signature

        "Whether you think you can or not...you'll always be 100% right!" |

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183865].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author HarrisFellman
          @Ray - well, that's a good point. But the copywriter is usually taking direction from the product owner. It's definitely a combination of "over selling" and "under delivering".
          Signature

          --
          Harris Fellman
          http://harrisfellman.com

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183907].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
          Originally Posted by Ray Erdmann View Post

          The high refund rates aren't 100% due to the product being shoddy....most of the blame should go to the person who WROTE the sales copy and over-hyped the product to the point that once the product was purchased, you sat there thinking....

          "This isn't what the sales page indicated!"

          OR

          "I asked for a refund because the product didn't live up to the sales page"
          The copywriter does not have control over the content of the product. They write the salesletter based on a preview version of the product or what the client tells them is going to be in the final product or a combination of the two.

          If the product isn't what the sales page indicated then chances are, it's the product that is at fault.

          In addition, the client has the opportunity to review the salesletter before it's posted online and ask their copywriter to correct any errors in the copy (usually something like a misspelled word).

          That's not counting the times where a client decides to change the copy without consulting their copywriter. Sometimes the changes are honest marketing like trying a different headline. Other times... maybe not so honest marketing.


          OR

          "Once again, the sales page over-hyped the product and though the product is ok, there's no way anyone could make this kind of money on only "x" amount of time!"

          And I've heard similar comments here on this very forum!

          So, let's not all just jump on the bandwagon of hating on the shoddy product owners...but let us also start telling the copywriters to provide some 'truth', 'honesty' and 'integrity' as well...and not just point fingers at one side of the problem!
          Most copywriters are already aware that the FTC (a branch of the U.S. Government) will pursue them legally & criminally if they are involved in any online site (even if it's just writing the copy for it) that rips-off the general public.

          I can think of one well-known copywriter/marketer who got slammed by the FTC several years ago for this very reason.

          Believe me when I say that the majority of copywriters I know aren't willing to go to jail for their clients and outright lying in the copy could do exactly that.

          Take care,

          Mike
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3184785].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Collette
          Originally Posted by Ray Erdmann View Post

          The high refund rates aren't 100% due to the product being shoddy....most of the blame should go to the person who WROTE the sales copy and over-hyped the product
          ...

          So, let's not all just jump on the bandwagon of hating on the shoddy product owners...but let us also start telling the copywriters to provide some 'truth', 'honesty' and 'integrity' as well...and not just point fingers at one side of the problem!
          As a professional copywriter, let me assure you that copy NEVER gets used by the product owner without that product owner's approval.

          Copywriters simply do not have the ability to force the product owner to use their copy, hyped or otherwise. Just doesn't happen.

          Ultimately, if the product cannot - and does not - live up to the promises made in the copy, no one knows this better, before the copy goes live, than the product owner.

          Someone who is selling crap ALWAYS knows they are sellling crap.

          The responsibility of the copywriter is to not use his or her skills to knowingly sell crap. For that to happen, the copywriter must (a) have a core standard and practice of ethical behavior, and (b) refuse to write for clients who do not share and practice that standard.

          True, unethical copywriters, like shoddy product owners, exist. They will inevitably find each other. The sun rises, and it also sets.

          However, approving and using 'over-hyped' copy is the provenence of the product owner. And in Internet Marketing, as in all things, "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is".

          Caveat emptor.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3193161].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    From another perspective all of this, the state of IM in 2011, means
    much more opportunity for those who are honest, competent and do
    it right.

    Think about it...

    There are far more newer people in 'IM,' and perhaps the economy is
    responsible for that. Don't want to debate that, but you can.

    So, there are more people to help. The market is larger. I understand
    people are not particularly happy about all the negative things that
    happen. But it is life, guys. Nothing new happening, here. I am not
    cynical, but human nature has not suddenly gone down the toilet.

    There's a lot of opportunity to help people. A fair exchange of value.


    Ken
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182788].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Eric,

      But, 1on1's and high quality training... sure, that can be very valuable for some and help them boost their careers. It just depends I guess on value.
      I was specifically referring to the type of thing that IMers sometimes post here about - typically -

      * low price/'free' product

      * customer has no idea that their phone number/details will be sold (buried in small print, if mentioned at all)

      * phone call arrives, caller uses clever wording to make it sound like he is in the same building/company as the 'guru' who sold the product, or that the 'guru' will be doing the coaching - both of these are false

      * caller enquires about the person's credit situation, then 'coaching' price is designed to max out the person's card

      * if the person falls for it, the 'coaching' is nothing like what was promised - it usually turns out that the 'coach' has less experience/knowledge than the average newb

      * if the person talks 'refund', the caller gets very aggressive

      For example, this thread from last year popped up again the other day -

      Link Here

      This boiler-room stuff is just one example of the many types of marketing that many people feel are causing the problems outlined in your OP.

      I just wondered if your beef was specifically with the CB stuff (which admittedly is getting outrageous) or that type of stuff in general.

      Lastly, I know you've always been one to often debate me on my posts, but just this time, hopefully you'll agree.
      Yes I do agree with you on this one. It's often been this 'corner' that I have been fighting for.
      Signature


      Roger Davis

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182895].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Sam England
        My final comment is....

        This is where I believe WEBINARS are of real value nowadays because it gives the buyer the assurance that the seller knows what the F&&K he/she is talking about and gives real information about their products and/or services...

        Cheers Eric...keep it real...
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182946].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author TommyBussey
          Originally Posted by Hambonz43 View Post

          My final comment is....

          This is where I believe WEBINARS are of real value nowadays because it gives the buyer the assurance that the seller knows what the F&&K he/she is talking about and gives real information about their products and/or services...

          Cheers Eric...keep it real...
          Webinars can be of value, but nowadays I've seen them follow the same exact traits, promoting the same products...all full of hot air and empty promises. I observed a webinar just recently about a new "push button FB software" and typed the product name into WF. There was a thread full of angry buyers. Stuff like that honestly saddens me.

          Eric - great post. I've been thinking the same thoughts lately and I really appreciate you taking the time to put your thoughts down here.

          I recently saw another example of a MASSIVE product launch that broke Clickbank gravity records...the video starts out saying they opened a brand new CB account to test their new software...then I noticed when they logged in (down near the bottom below daily sales) that the account was opened back in 2009. This may seem like a small thing, but to me...it's still a LIE. If you're going to lie to me and other consumers about something small, then you're going to keep lying to make the profits.

          I could go on and on, but I'll just end by saying this to my fellow IM'ers:

          Start thinking of yourself as an entrepreneur who merely utilizes the power of the internet to legitimately create and grow a real business. Take a look at Mark Zuckerberg (not my favorite person in the world), BUT he created a multi-billion dollar "online business" without any of this hyped garbage being peddled in our community.

          You have the power inside you to apply real knowledge and test real campaigns. Grind it out until you're making legitimate, ethical money...and then keep on grindin' some more.

          Thanks again Eric,
          Tommy
          Signature

          - Meet Tommy Bussey -

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183923].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author yankforlife41
    Very true post, the only thing is, if their is money to be made from suckers, people are going to exploit them.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182815].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author HarrisFellman
      Originally Posted by hook View Post

      I just started in IM, bought one WSO, and I'll never buy anything on here again.
      huge mistake my friend.

      This is what they call "throwing out the baby with the bathwater".

      I've never sold a WSO -- but I can tell you -- there are MANY MANY MANY that I've bought that were worth 10x their money.

      Pick up a book called "Change or Die" -- it's freakin' awesome.

      One of the big things I got out of that book was that it's important to find a "program that fits" -- basically - if you're going to "change your life" in any meaningful way, you need to find the right program for you -- whether it's a mentor, a training course, a social networking group (warriorforum??) -- you need to be willing to try a few things in order to get to the one that's right for you.

      There's more to the book - but that's what your comment triggered for me.

      Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater -- just b/c one or even ten WSO's that you've purchased suck -- just keep learning and trying to find what's right for you.

      How else are ya gonna learn? (well, other than actually APPLYING what ever you learn that is, of course <G>)
      Signature

      --
      Harris Fellman
      http://harrisfellman.com

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183832].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author scrofford
    I agree with Eric, but one thing you can rest assure...as these people don't provide value and as they sell crap and keep getting refunds, people are going to quit buying from them.

    People want good solutions to their problems and if value and truth aren't provided, then people go elsewhere. This opens the door for those that do provide good products and services and who truly care. Cream always rises to the top and it will with this situation also.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182851].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author klepfish
    Completely agreed.

    My biggest problem with this situation isn't the bad super-hyped products themselves. I mean, they're bad, but if people can at least get refunds its something. (If not then its pure and straight fraud.)

    No, what really really bothers me is that this flood of ****ty offers is that it makes is 10X harder for real marketers to sell good products without hyping the hell out of them as well.

    As a software developer its even worse for me than most, I think.

    If I create a really useful utility and try to sell it by writing "This is a very good solution to your marketing problem. Yes, it will take you about 30 minutes reading the manual to learn how to use it properly. And yes, you actually have to put some time into using it to get results, but it really is the solution you need." NOBODY will buy it.

    Why would they when somebody else is saying "Buy my software! You just click on 1 big button in the middle and money will come flooding in."?

    So I have to hype everything in order to sell it. And then when it doesn't work with 1 click, some people get upset since the salesletter made it seem like the software is magical.

    What we really need is hype-free internet marketing.

    Someplace where we can actually discuss and promote real tools and strategies that will produce meaningful results with some work put into them.

    I don't know if this market can be saved, but maybe we can create a secondary market that responds to reality and not hype.

    - Leon Klepfish
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3182890].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author HarrisFellman
      Originally Posted by klepfish View Post

      I don't know if this market can be saved, but maybe we can create a secondary market that responds to reality and not hype.
      Yeah, Leon -- I've been thinking the same thing. But more along the lines of "how do we differentiate" from them ... and pull in the customers who are ready for the "More Authentic" messages, I guess.

      Also been thinkin' about some sort of "Ethical Marketers Association" or something... but that's pretty dicey b/c the line is in a different place for everyone.

      (Kinda like the stripper who says "oh, well, I won't let him *touch me*" .. and the other one saying "it's okay if he touches me here, but not here" ... and well, guess which one makes the most money??? anyway - LOL - I think I just compared myself to a stripper. So, I've gotta go now.)
      Signature

      --
      Harris Fellman
      http://harrisfellman.com

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183812].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author BlogPiG.com
      Originally Posted by klepfish View Post

      Completely agreed.
      What we really need is hype-free internet marketing.

      Someplace where we can actually discuss and promote real tools and strategies that will produce meaningful results with some work put into them.

      I don't know if this market can be saved, but maybe we can create a secondary market that responds to reality and not hype.
      Leon, as a software developer also, I feel your pain. But don't resort to hype. Just tell it how it is with your product/s and price them accordingly.

      SKIP HYPE. MEET EXPECTATIONS.

      It is working for me.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183868].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Syamsul Alam
      Originally Posted by klepfish View Post

      Completely agreed.If I create a really useful utility and try to sell it by writing "This is a very good solution to your marketing problem. Yes, it will take you about 30 minutes reading the manual to learn how to use it properly. And yes, you actually have to put some time into using it to get results, but it really is the solution you need." NOBODY will buy it.
      If I see in your feature or benefit list that your software solve my problems, I will buy it even if you wrote your sales letter like that. People still appreciate honesty. There are a lot of product owner out there who don't hype up their sales letter and still gaining really (I mean really) good conversion and sales.
      Signature
      Signature Here...
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Move your cursor to my link and it will magically turned red when you do it. Try (and click) it!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3185857].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author BrantleysSuccess
    Hey Eric,

    Great post ! Joel Comm was just commenting on this same paralysis you just talked about, because the IM scene has been paralyzed with this kind of activity for a while now. Thank goodness ive been over the shiny object syndrome for along time.

    Its good to see big names bringing it to light, especially for vulnerable newbies.

    Ron
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183092].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author RobinInTexas
      You're absolutely correct Eric. And I don't think it can ever end. There have been snake oil salesmen since the first man saw a snake. It could give the "oldest profession" competition for the title.

      I don't recall which one of the "heavy hitters" had it as a part of his inducement to JV with them, but one of his points was how they were holding back a bunch of the good "juice" until after the refunding period.

      And as far as exRat's comment, I had a three or four month period where I got almost daily robocalls leaving messages on my voicemail (cell phone AND landline) telling me I really had to join in on the "fantastic opportunity" that I could see on the webinar.
      Signature

      Robin



      ...Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just set there.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183290].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Devid Farah
        Hi Eric,

        I agree that internet marketers who use shady techniques are giving all internet marketers a bad name.

        The thing is that they make up a small percentage of internet marketers.

        People need to realize that when they try to make money with no business moral or ethics involved that they are not only harming themselves but every other honest internet marketer out there.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183540].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author HarrisFellman
    Eric,

    It's hard for me to reply to everything you're writing.

    Like you, I've talked to a number of my successful "guru buddies", I've posted against the 'state of the marketing', I've complained to my contact at Clickbank (I'm not the only one to have complained to him), I created a sales video that starts off saying "wake the F*** up" and then goes on to discuss some of what you're talking about here...

    I have another sales script that I wrote that talks about it in even more detail .. talking about "INFO WARS PART TWO -- THE CUSTOMER STRIKES BACK" and the high refund rate.

    To answer this question here:
    B. Why in the world are people buying-this-stuff?

    I think you should read Seth Godin's book "Marketers are Liars" for an answer to that. But quickly -- it's because good marketers tap into the LIES THAT CUSTOMERS TELL THEMSELVES.

    The customers want to believe it. So, they hear one thing they like and go in and buy it. But the joke's on the marketers now -- it's a different world ... people are using the "60 day refund policy" as if it were a 60 day free trial.

    That's what's happening.

    Oh, and btw - you won't see the "customer strikes back" thing in my next video .. I decided to take it back... and here's why: it's a waste of time in a short video. It's just me, the marketer, whining about how tough it is FOR US to compete right now.

    I think the turning point is upon us.

    We're in the Age of Authenticity ... the overhyped BS will have it's day to "not convert as well" -- or maybe Clickbank will make some changes to make it cost-prohibitive to have a 60% refund rate. I mean, if you did that on Paypal - you'd be gone ... regular merchant account? gone! ... plus on a regular merchant account you'd probably have 2 or 3% of the people charging back instead of refunding -- so, it would be cost prohibitive with the fees.

    Anyway -- we're going through a market adjustment -- however, I think for you, Eric -- it's your job as a marketer to DIFFERENTIATE yourself somehow.

    Don't be an "internet marketer" anymore if they're all getting a bad name.

    Although, I think the people you're referring to are really more like biz op.

    Also - in your marketing ... in your videos or whatever -- don't LOOK LIKE THEM. It's not just "what you say" but how you say it.

    Okay - well, I've only read your original post ... lemme go read what everyone else has to say. There are many of us who are 'on your side' on this .. Ross Goldberg, Joel Comm, even Mike Filsaime have spoken out against this.

    NOTE: I am changing the names below since I just read that someone got in trouble with the WF moderators for "naming names".

    Personally, I'm really disappointed in **** ***** for his latest promotions. I even slammed his partner **** ******* about it and he pretty much just said "I hate it when good marketers hate on good marketing" -- I said -- it's not good marketing, dude -- I used to do improv -- and this is basically like a "d*ck joke" -- easy to get a laugh -- but not "good comedy".

    Yes, I'm taking a HUGE risk by speaking out about *** & ***. (LOL, not as big a risk anymore since I censored their names) -- I actually REALLY like them -- and their product that they were selling actually worked. But their *marketing* just lumped them in with EVERYONE ELSE DOING THAT KIND OF MARKETING and I'm going to continue to separate myself from that.

    *** & *** are actually REALLY good people. And I know they were just trying to slaughter it on Clickbank - and the best way to do that is to look at what everyone else is doing and do it mo-betta-harder (at least that's what I taught in Site Stealer LOL). So, I get it. I do.
    Signature

    --
    Harris Fellman
    http://harrisfellman.com

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183717].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Tim_Carter
    I would have got writing cramp trying to write that myself.

    Eric you hit it on the head. What a shame that this is happening. Makes it harder for those of us who care about our customers.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183813].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Eric, I don't even know how to respond to such a "heart-on-the-sleeve"
      post. You just can't follow something like that up with anything more than
      "yeah, me too."

      But maybe one more heart on the sleeve will add at least a grain of value
      to this whole problem.

      When I first started this journey over 8 years ago, I was as green as can
      be. Talk about being just plain stupid and uneducated. It took me 5 months
      just to make $28. I was told everything you can imagine on how to make a
      fortune and all of it was a bunch of bull sh*t.

      Finally, a couple of people who obviously took pity on me, pointed me in
      the right direction. Through a little PPC selling health products and some
      freelancing writing articles for other people, I got enough of an education
      to start making some okay money.

      But it was hard work and many 14 hour days that people here told me
      I was stupid for putting in that finally got me to where I am.

      And then I woke up one day, looked around at the stuff you're talking
      about, and said to myself...

      "I don't want to be a part of this whorehouse."

      That's what it is my friend. It's a bunch of dirty, filthy whores trying to
      make a buck by any means possible.

      Except the customer doesn't even get the benefit of a good screw.

      I'm sick of it. And there are days I want to just chuck it all. In fact,
      tonight I'm getting away from this computer and going to my friend Steve's
      store to play a little Magic The Gathering.

      Sadly, this thread will do about as much good as telling a man who has
      6 months to live that he should give up smoking.

      My grandmother, God rest her soul, had a saying.

      "As long as there are two people in this world, there will always be war."

      Eric, as long as there is greed in this world, there will always be people
      who will sell you sh*t, even though you have no desire to fertilize your
      lawn, and charge you for the privilege.

      It isn't fair...It isn't right.

      And it's never going to stop.

      Now I'm going to go get my back pack and get the heck out of here for
      a night of piece and quiet.

      My soul needs a good long bath from the stench.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183897].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author BlogPiG.com
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Eric, I don't even know how to respond to such a "heart-on-the-sleeve"
        post. You just can't follow something like that up with anything more than
        "yeah, me too."

        But maybe one more heart on the sleeve will add at least a grain of value
        to this whole problem.

        When I first started this journey over 8 years ago, I was as green as can
        be. Talk about being just plain stupid and uneducated. It took me 5 months
        just to make $28. I was told everything you can imagine on how to make a
        fortune and all of it was a bunch of bull sh*t.

        Finally, a couple of people who obviously took pity on me, pointed me in
        the right direction. Through a little PPC selling health products and some
        freelancing writing articles for other people, I got enough of an education
        to start making some okay money.

        But it was hard work and many 14 hour days that people here told me
        I was stupid for putting in that finally got me to where I am.

        And then I woke up one day, looked around at the stuff you're talking
        about, and said to myself...

        "I don't want to be a part of this whorehouse."

        That's what it is my friend. It's a bunch of dirty, filthy whores trying to
        make a buck by any means possible.

        Except the customer doesn't even get the benefit of a good screw.

        I'm sick of it. And there are days I want to just chuck it all. In fact,
        tonight I'm getting away from this computer and going to my friend Steve's
        store to play a little Magic The Gathering.

        Sadly, this thread will do about as much good as telling a man who has
        6 months to live that he should give up smoking.

        My grandmother, God rest her soul, had a saying.

        "As long as there are two people in this world, there will always be war."

        Eric, as long as there is greed in this world, there will always be people
        who will sell you sh*t, even though you have no desire to fertilize your
        lawn, and charge you for the privilege.

        It isn't fair...It isn't right.

        And it's never going to stop.

        Now I'm going to go get my back pack and get the heck out of here for
        a night of piece and quiet.

        My soul needs a good long bath from the stench.
        Steve, I love and respect your responses, but this one is the antithesis to what I just wrote and it makes me sad.

        You have so much experience and have seen so much in the IM world, I normally would bow to your opinion.

        But in this case, I think, hmmmmm, even if we can't stop this outright, we can turn the tide and help a good percentage of people stop wasting their time and money on cr*p.

        Yours respectfully.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183926].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ShaneRQR
    No, no, no!


    Don't get me wrong: I agree that the market is being flooded with scumbags. No doubt about that.
    Yes, there are tons of dimwits who do despicable things (and sometimes just stupid things) to make a buck. Yes, it's been getting worse.

    But NO: This is not the point where we turn our backs on the market and let the monkeys go rampant.

    Be the change you want to see in the market.

    Think for a second: This is a huge opportunity. Let me repeat that: This is a HUGE opportunity.

    And: Of course your little post makes a difference. Your little post and Joe's little video and Jane who sends nothing but awesome stuff to her subscribers and... it adds up.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183819].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Hi Eric,

    I agree, there is WAY too much c-r-a-p (pardon my language) being sold.

    But I also wonder about those who hear advice like, "Just put your stuff out there and sell it. Don't worry if it's not perfect. Just get it out there and fix it as you go." Those who give such advice should maybe consider how some people will receive it.

    That in no way excuses a bad product, but it could be one explanation. On the other hand, if you are mainly talking about well-established marketers, well they should know better and probably do.

    All the best,
    Michael
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183846].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    I was reading an offer the other day, and although it seemed to be a miracle offer, everything was reading fine and the price was low enough to gamble on...

    Then about halfway into the sales copy, I was taken aback by something that was said in the offer.

    In essence, the copy writer was talking about the money they invested to create this software.

    Then they said their programming team had won the "Ebay Motors #1 Award"...

    I was hit with a "WTF moment"!!

    Why would a website that sells used cars give any programming company an award of any sort?!?

    So, I searched for "Ebay Motors #1 Award", "Ebay Motors Award" and variations thereof, since the copy writer had mentioned it in various forms in the sales copy.

    The only places I could find mentioning that particular "award" was this seller and its affiliates, another Clickbank offer and its affiliates, a page about the "programming company", and one UK website that is connected the Ebay Affiliate program.
    (This page will soon join the search results since I have mentioned it, but I consider it good karma since this thread talks about "crap products".)
    It is just amazing to me that someone would use such a bald-faced lie to promote their product, and more so that someone would use a lie that could so easily be seen as out-of-place and likely non-existent!!!

    The marketer who sent the link to this product has lost a bit of credibility with me this week. It is a damn shame too, because I have talked to this person regularly, and his stature with me had been really high beforehand.
    Signature
    Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183864].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author HarrisFellman
    Originally Posted by Vincenzo Oliva View Post

    We're all friends, can we name names ? ;-)

    (I've got my suspicions).
    Just go to Clickbank marketplace and look at most of the Top 20 or so offers.
    Look at Business/Investing, E-Business/E-marketing, and Employment & Jobs

    Marketplace - ClickBank

    There's a few that are fine -- but 90% of the top products fit into this category.
    I call 'em the "UK Clickbank Gang" -- but now even some of the US Crew are following suit.

    This particular problem SHOULD BE solvable at the clickbank level.
    Signature

    --
    Harris Fellman
    http://harrisfellman.com

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183866].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
    I totally agree, I used to buy 3 to 4 WSO every week, sometimes more, but to be brutally honest, I have noticed that there are so many of these make 23,000.00 in ten min or less with this guaranteed bull#$%$ and apparently people buy it, I dont know but I sure wish there were a better way to screen some of the trash from the gold.

    You know I just had an idea, what if you had a War room WSO section, that would be a totally cool idea, a sort of B2B thing, anyway I remember the old days, when value was pretty good, and you only saw these fly by the seat of your pants offeres every once in a while, who knows perhaps things will change in the future.

    As for me, I am rooting for the War Room WSO coming soon (hopefully)
    Signature
    Software Development | Applications | OSX | iOS | Android | Cloud Software Engineering |
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183869].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author HarrisFellman
      Originally Posted by Tim Franklin View Post


      what if you had a War room WSO section,
      or how about a feature where you could comment or RATE a WSO?
      (or a clickbank product right on the page, for that matter)

      I don't buy very much on Amazon till I read the reviews.
      Signature

      --
      Harris Fellman
      http://harrisfellman.com

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183913].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by HarrisFellman View Post

        or how about a feature where you could comment or RATE a WSO?
        (or a clickbank product right on the page, for that matter)

        I don't buy very much on Amazon till I read the reviews.

        You already have this capability.

        In the WSO thread, the only people who can comment are those who have bought the product to offer a review, and those who have questions during the pre-sales process.

        There is also a section of the forum devoted to product reviews, which covers a large number of Clickbank products.
        Signature
        Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183935].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author mgpweb
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          You already have this capability.

          In the WSO thread, the only people who can comment are those who have bought the product to offer a review, and those who have questions during the pre-sales process.

          There is also a section of the forum devoted to product reviews, which covers a large number of Clickbank products.
          Yes many people write reviews on the WSOs they buy, but many WSO reports now ask you to write a review and if you do they will give you a bonus report, some even go as far as saying if you write a positive review you can get a bonus download - so really how do we know which are real reviews and which are fake reviews!
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3185327].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author BlogPiG.com
    Eric,

    I have ranted long and hard about this on my own site and it elicited such a response. People are alight with passion about this. People want the market to change and here is how we as people who sell or promote products can make change happen:

    1. Educate customers from newbies to pros as to how to make wise purchasing decisions - do it here, do it on your websites, do it in your email broadcasts

    2. Team up (JV) only with people who share the same value system as you when it comes to marketing tactics

    3. Shout from the rooftops when you do find someone who you hand on heart can say employs ethical tactics

    We can make the IM world better!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183885].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
    I've thought quite a bit about what the OP is all about, and it boils down to trust.

    One thought is to form an organization where the members are required to maintain a given (ethical) standard ... and then brand the heck out of the organization. Something like Consumer Reports or the Better Business Bureau.

    Some of the current places to bi, er, complain do little to actually build trust ... the Salty Droid comes to mind.

    I've never checked, but I wonder if the BBB would be able to help with this since the BBB label is a kind of trust seal for businesses.

    Marvin
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183975].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Brad Spencer
    People have hit on this here...and most are so cynical in this market that they won't be able to see this...but if you brand yourself as a "marketing hero" you can use this garbage to your advantage.

    It's a bit of complex psychology but if you spend time "saving" people from their own mistakes by showing them the way to success (give away tons of wicked high quality content combined with a lot of free resources that aren't yours) you can avoid being branded this way.

    My friend Colin Theriot (a Warrior here) talks about this a ton and it's a great way to build loyalty. Since I started going low hype, low priced for intro products (key since this makes it impulse buy), and over deliver in a sexy/fun way, my refund rates are virtually nil and I have many people buying 3-4 things at a time from me.

    Branding is much easier in this arena since there are so many "push this button" type marketers out there.

    Eric, you deliver...shout this to the roof top and you'll have people begging to work with you (which I'm sure you do). Overdelivering is the antidote to the CB garbage offers.

    Cheers,

    Brad
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183978].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sitefurnace
    The bull**** is everywhere, everywhere that there is greed, vanity or any other undesirable hymen trait you care to think of.

    We are lied to buy our governments, my the media and by those pathetic skin care companies that sell us hydrolipsomechromiums to keep us looking young.

    I used to study forex until I saw the truth and understood how the worlds money markets made sure that all the profits were one way traffic. Now I'm desperately trying to find a way to make an honest, long term living in IM.

    I find myself making more negative, suspicious posts than I do positive ones here on this forum, and am becoming seriously disillusioned with this industry.

    is there a path for the righteous In this Market or is it doomed to be forever plagued by the greedy?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183980].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author rickfrazier1
    Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

    Dear anyone-who-cares-about-the-Internet-Marketing-marketplace,

    Learn to drive traffic, build a list, brand yourself,
    create value and distribute value to your market. Create
    real businesses and passive income. Treat people well.

    Eric Louviere
    I agree with the substance and details of your post. The paragraph above is good advice, but it is extremely difficult for most people to get through the dry times it takes to actually build a reasonable list and generate the positive reputation it takes to become successful.

    Not impossible, just very discouraging and difficult, given that the typical honestly promoted product isn't getting the traffic it deserves because of much of the hype of these huge deceptive product promotions.

    I've been burned personally by a couple of well known marketers that I initially trusted. It's as if they lost their way and turned bad. Older products were useful and encouraged me to purchase from them in the future. However, the new crop of products were not of nearly the same quality, and seemed to be more sucker bait than anything else. Getting refunded was difficult, but not impossible. Worse, the newest product requested a phone number, and like a fool, I actually provided a real one.

    The sheer number of calls I've recieved as a result of purchasing this product and providing my phone number has been incredible. They began in what I would call first tier, trying to sell coaching services and such. First tier actually indicated they were "working for", then later "associated with" the seller, so identifying the source wasn't difficult. Not purchasing in tie first tier pushed my number into the second tier, promoting money making opportunities without the mention of coaching (but usually requiring investment in their system, hosting and/or whatever). At this level, there is no mention of the original source of my number, but the "offers" are still at least vaguely related to the original purchase. Lately they have degraded to the third tier, where the calls are more desparate to generate revenue. They are also all over the map relative to offer type. Obviously, the call center generates some considerable income for the product seller, but at what cost?...

    I'm not impressed by the whole calling center process, and it caused me to lose what remaining respect I had for that particular product seller.
    I'm hoping this is an exception to current practices, but I'm afraid it may be another in the arsenal of the "make all the money while we can" group.

    Yes, it would be great for Karma to take over and take them out to leave the marketplace to the rest of us, but somehow I'm not expecting this to happen soon.

    Keep up the good work, keep selling honest products and helping others. Somehow, it will all work out in the end.
    Signature

    My Current WSO: Financial Independence 2012 - The Truth About Kindle Publishing

    HostGator web hosting is only $0.01 for the first month: Use coupon code HMTSpecial

    Other WSO: Protect Your Product - Prevent THIEVES from stealing your product.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3183981].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Harris,

      Just go to Clickbank marketplace and look at most of the Top 20 or so offers.
      Look at Business/Investing, E-Business/E-marketing, and Employment & Jobs

      Marketplace - ClickBank

      There's a few that are fine -- but 90% of the top products fit into this category.
      I call 'em the "UK Clickbank Gang" -- but now even some of the US Crew are following suit.

      This particular problem SHOULD BE solvable at the clickbank level.
      This is why I asked Eric to clarify what he was referring to.

      Some seem to want to steer this discussion purely towards clickbank products. Yes, many of those are by people in the UK. (For the record, I don't have a vested dog in this fight.)

      But if we're talking about this -

      I've seen countless crap offers flood our market this past
      year, full of hype, fake screen shots, vague as heck salesletters
      (blind copy), outrageous claims and big bold lies. You've seen
      them, it's been stated already, others have complained, etc
      (which we are) and this -

      It's ruining the market
      ...then in my opinion, there is no apparent logic/benefit in narrowing the discussion to just CB products in the way that you appear to wish to.

      As you can see above, more than one person has experienced the boiler-room treatment and feels that it belongs in this discussion. I could name other topics that also fit.

      Most of these could easily be described as being associated with 'the syndicate' - one that appears to be exclusively a 'USA gang', I might add - just for the record.

      There are many of us who are 'on your side' on this [snip] Joel Comm, even Mike Filsaime have spoken out against this.
      Orly. :rolleyes:
      Signature


      Roger Davis

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3184033].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
        Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

        Is it risky for me to state my opinion?? More than you will ever know!
        On the contrary, it will be IMMENSELY valuable for you to publicize this contrary opinion.

        Originally Posted by ShaneRQR View Post

        Think for a second: This is a huge opportunity. Let me repeat that: This is a HUGE opportunity.
        Shane has it right.

        Originally Posted by Brad Spencer View Post

        It's a bit of complex psychology but if you spend time "saving" people from their own mistakes by showing them the way to success (give away tons of wicked high quality content combined with a lot of free resources that aren't yours) you can avoid being branded this way.
        This is why. There's a thing called the Von Restorff Effect. We tend to remember the things that stand out. There's a tremendous advantage to being the golden nugget shining in the mud puddle. In fact, some studies show that when you create an outlier in this fashion, the other similar options blur together and become forgettable.

        There's another thing called Attribution Error. When a preacher speaks against a certain vice, the flock presumes the preacher has overcome this vice. This may or may not be true, but it's what the audience automatically believes.

        The opportunity for smart, helpful, and honest marketers has NEVER been bigger.

        To see what I mean, consider the previous U.S. Presidential Election. What did it take for Obama to create a huge amount of attention? One word: Change. If people are unhappy with what they're getting and yet still want more (and they will ALWAYS still want more) all you have to do is show them that you're different, and they will flock to you like moths to a flame.

        The psychology of it is pretty simple, and the tons of "Thanks" and comments in support of Eric's OP proves exactly what I'm saying. Eric happens to already have an awesome rep in this community. But even if he didn't, he would, very quickly, after just a few posts like this.

        So to that I say THANK YOU, terrible marketers. Sell that dream. Because people NEVER give up a dream. It might go to sleep, but they never give it up once they make it their own. So once they get burned, or jaded, or cynical, they're READY for what I can teach them.

        Which is how to make reality bend to meet that dream. It's not as easy as pushing a button. It's as easy as pushing a few dozen buttons though. They're attached to the computer, and anyone responding here has been touching them already.

        Good post!
        Signature

        Fair warning: It's possible I'm arguing with you because I have nothing better to do.
        Join my free copywriting group on Facebook: http://CultOfCopy.com

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3184159].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author HarrisFellman
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Most of these could easily be described as being associated with 'the syndicate' - one that appears to be exclusively a 'USA gang', I might add - just for the record.
        Well firstly, from where I sit, I feel the people in the syndicate (generally) provide some of the most valuable information in our marketplace.

        I don't know that even half of the syndicate gives their leads to the phone rooms. A few of them have certainly experimented with it -- but, well, they all have their products priced at $2-3000 .. the phone rooms sell "coaching" for $3000-5000. So, it's not really a good match as a back end to a $3000 online course.

        They do better with $10-25,000 per year masterminds or one-on-one's or whatever.

        Many of the clickbankers do, indeed, give their leads to the boiler rooms.

        The $3k coaching calls are SUCH a different conversation in my opinion than the "look at all the crap in the market". I have a biz partner that has a small coaching company - he really holds people's hands ... gets their site up ... etc etc. It's a really delicate balance man -- and hard to make everyone happy.

        He had one customer who pushed for a chargeback (via paypal) because ... and check this out ...
        1) Over a couple months, they created a unique info product together
        2) They also got a site up
        3) They also got traffic to the site
        4) They also made a few sales right away
        5) A couple early sales had a wonky buying experience and thus asked for a refund...

        now, check this out

        The coaching client then flipped out and asked for all of her money back.

        My friend's coaching company DELIVERED on his promises, right?

        So, it's a very delicate psychology.

        I just got done paying $7500 for 6 months of coaching from E-myth.

        It was great, but really, I got all I was going to get out of it after a few months -- and then it just became too much time and energy for me. (Ya don't see me complaining about e-myth or asking for my money back though).

        But with this marketplace -- it's really a delicate psychology.

        People sell themselves on the idea that if they invest $3-5k with a coaching company that "hey, they'll get their investment back in 3 months"... and I'm sure the SALESPEOPLE are feeding into that (and frankly, many people *should* be able to do just that ... )

        My phone rings off the hook with these calls too btw -- I have no idea who sold me out to multiple phone room floors either.

        Anyway, like I said -- seriously - - it's a different side of the discussion.

        Anyone selling info products better be damn sure to properly vett whomever they give their customers contact information to because ultimately it comes back to THEM. Most people are too short sighted though (I know I have been in the past) -- just looking for the quick buck; so who cares about the long term relationship with your customer.

        Meh. Those days will eventually come to an end. Seriously, we're all getting more and more connected and people are demanding authenticity more and more.

        Harris
        Signature

        --
        Harris Fellman
        http://harrisfellman.com

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3184178].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author gforces
        Interesting article. Not sure on the timing of it but you may have seen that Derek Gehl and Yanik Silver are tapping right into this discontent even as we 'speak'. It's a problem in any industry that makes a lot of money.... the scammers and bound to come.

        Bottom line is we should all be doing something about it... starting with ourselves. Like Micheal Jackson said - it all starts with the man in the mirror.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3208469].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jay Vikaz
        Eric,

        Wow! You really sparked off a great discussion here.

        Well, the problem is a symptom of a deep rooted mindset in sections of the industry to focus on "money-making" schemes rather than "building a business".

        If only more people would focus on building a business... using sound business principles.... like creating real value, providing real solutions to a problem...

        Jay
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3209288].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author The Bad Blogger
        Well... there just too many screw ball products out there and so many crappy marketer, I mean what can we really do... look even Frank Kern retire from it... is like almost becoming worst and worst...
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3209340].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi,

          I made an analogy in post# 97. I'm going to make the same point, with a different kind of analogy, as it's hopefully clearer.

          The analogy is a popular and relevant one for this industry- the goldrush and the shovel sellers.

          We're looking at two different points in time in the goldrush - then and now.

          Back then, there was plentiful opportunity to find gold. You could practically stumble upon it, just by walking around. The shovel sellers were so busy selling basic shovels that they barely had time to design complicated, expensive mining machines. There were less gold prospectors, but more legitimate opportunities.

          Now, there are many more prospectors and shovel sellers. There is a lot less gold to be mined. The big mining companys have moved in, purchased and cordoned off the very best mining areas. The company who sell prospecting licenses (Google) have auctions - and money talks. With all of these changes and the maturity of the goldrush, it's got harder for the shovel sellers and the little guys and the prospectors.

          The big companys have taken over and dominated the shovel selling business. The smaller shovel sellers have had to become more adept just to survive. The market for shovels is dominated so they are forced to try and sell mini mining-machines. But because this market is so competitive, they are quickly slapping together machines which are faulty and putting their focus on aggressive marketing of these faulty machines.

          There are so many newbie gold prospectors that the blind are leading the blind. One prospector claims to have found a new area to mine and hundreds blindly follow him and dig away at lumps of dirt. Rumours, copying, dishonesty and foolishness are rife and totally alter the atmosphere around the mines - there is a mood of anger and resentment.

          Eventually people need protecting from themselves, so the 'regulators' move in and try to restore some peace to the anarchy.

          ..........

          I don't see this as being particularly complicated. It's what happens when 'new markets' appear. They start off unregulated, like the Wild West. Then they 'mature' and things change.

          Just last night I watched a program that discussed how credit default swaps played their part in the boom and inevitable bust of the financial markets.

          Collateralised debt obligations (cdo) were invented (new market) and to some degree it made sense to back these up with protection from failure (cds). Then two more opportunities were noticed by those looking for ways to 'work' this system.

          They could use these to (1) create artificial leverage and to (2) create products which were bound to fail, but they could sell them as AAA rated, whilst also secretly betting on their eventual failure.

          You can see exactly the same process at work as the market matured -

          * a new market appears

          * the smell of money attracts more players

          * unethical players create techniques which are so lucrative that they start to dominate, put the ethical guys in the shadows and harm their profits, thus encouraging/forcing more and more ethical players to cross the line towards unethical

          * rumours spread of huge returns which attracts even more players, plus the big guys move in and take over

          * the market reaches maturity and the whole thing implodes - things are very messy and there is anger and resentment on many different levels

          Is there not a similar theme to the maturation of IM?
          Signature


          Roger Davis

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3209593].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Is this not a similar story in IM?
            Yes, with one major difference.

            There really is still gold to be mined.

            The ethical and honest people can still tell you how to mine it.

            It's identifying those people that becomes difficult, because as it starts to be more and more important to find the needle in the haystack, more and more of the hay starts trying to disguise itself as needles.

            Tell me THAT wasn't a hideously tortured and completely inappropriate analogy.
            Signature
            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3209624].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author paulie888
              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

              Yes, with one major difference.

              There really is still gold to be mined.

              The ethical and honest people can still tell you how to mine it.

              It's identifying those people that becomes difficult, because as it starts to be more and more important to find the needle in the haystack, more and more of the hay starts trying to disguise itself as needles.

              Tell me THAT wasn't a hideously tortured and completely inappropriate analogy.
              I couldn't agree more. The main issue here is that these borderline scammers are focusing far more on the marketing process than product creation.

              Identifying these honest and ethical sellers is only going to get more difficult, because they'll obviously refuse to stoop down to the level of these charlatans, and as a result their products typically get buried and obscured by the mountain of hype-filled product releases that are coming out on the market like clockwork.

              Today's grotesque IM marketplace has also probably caused many would-be product creators to reconsider and just stay underground while quietly making money with their methods. In my opinion, this current phenomenon is just going to cause more many of the more legitimate IM methods and techniques to remain suppressed and hidden.

              Paul
              Signature
              >>> Features Jason Fladlien, John S. Rhodes, Justin Brooke, Sean I. Mitchell, Reed Floren and Brad Gosse! <<<
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3209688].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
            Roger:
            This is off topic but man how do you continually bring out such mind blowing stuff sometimes I have to go look up words you say:confused:. Man you should do a wso it would fly literally off the shelves
            sorry for going off topic but Roger you rock man
            -Will
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Hi,

            I made an analogy in post# 97. I'm going to make the same point, with a different kind of analogy, as it's hopefully clearer.

            The analogy is a popular and relevant one for this industry- the goldrush and the shovel sellers.

            We're looking at two different points in time in the goldrush - then and now.

            Back then, there was plentiful opportunity to find gold. You could practically stumble upon it, just by walking around. The shovel sellers were so busy selling basic shovels that they barely had time to design complicated, expensive mining machines. There were less gold prospectors, but more legitimate opportunities.

            Now, there are many more prospectors and shovel sellers. There is a lot less gold to be mined. The big mining companys have moved in, purchased and cordoned off the very best mining areas. The company who sell prospecting licenses (Google) have auctions - and money talks. With all of these changes and the maturity of the goldrush, it's got harder for the shovel sellers and the little guys and the prospectors.

            The big companys have taken over and dominated the shovel selling business. The smaller shovel sellers have had to become more adept just to survive. The market for shovels is dominated so they are forced to try and sell mini mining-machines. But because this market is so competitive, they are quickly slapping together machines which are faulty and putting their focus on aggressive marketing of these faulty machines.

            There are so many newbie gold prospectors that the blind are leading the blind. One prospector claims to have found a new area to mine and hundreds blindly follow him and dig away at lumps of dirt. Rumours, copying, dishonesty and foolishness are rife and totally alter the atmosphere around the mines - there is a mood of anger and resentment.

            Eventually people need protecting from themselves, so the 'regulators' move in and try to restore some peace to the anarchy.

            ..........

            I don't see this as being particularly complicated. It's what happens when 'new markets' appear. They start off unregulated, like the Wild West. Then they 'mature' and things change.

            Just last night I watched a program that discussed how credit default swaps played their part in the boom and inevitable bust of the financial markets.

            Collateralised debt obligations (cdo) were invented (new market) and to some degree it made sense to back these up with protection from failure (cds). Then two more opportunities were noticed by those looking for ways to 'work' this system.

            They could use these to (1) create artificial leverage and to (2) create products which were bound to fail, but they could sell them as AAA rated, whilst also secretly betting on their eventual failure.

            You can see exactly the same process at work as the market matured -

            * a new market appears

            * the smell of money attracts more players

            * unethical players create techniques which are so lucrative that they start to dominate, put the ethical guys in the shadows and harm their profits, thus encouraging/forcing more and more ethical players to cross the line towards unethical

            * rumours spread of huge returns which attracts even more players, plus the big guys move in and take over

            * the market reaches maturity and the whole thing implodes - things are very messy and there is anger and resentment on many different levels

            Is there not a similar theme to the maturation of IM?
            Signature

            "As a man thinks in his heart so is he-Proverbs 23:7"
            Coming Soon http://graphicsdon.com

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3209645].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author ExRat
              Hi CD,

              Yes, with one major difference.

              There really is still gold to be mined.
              It's not a difference though. I agree with you - in my goldrush analogy, there is still gold - just less.

              People are still trading CDOs and buying CDSs (as far as I know).

              The one aspect I thought that people would dispute (in the real IM situation vs goldrush analogy) is where I said in the goldrush analogy that there is less gold. I presumed that they would say I was wrong because there are seemingly (and probably are in reality) more newbies to IM.

              This does make a positive difference to the shovel sellers. But this is offset against -

              * the big guys getting a grip on more of the market

              * the massive increase in shovel sellers (not least, from newbies maturing into shovel sellers)

              * the worldwide 'recession', which has transferred wealth. I doubt that those at the top of the tree who now have a greater portion of the wealth (and know how to use it) are buying WSOs. They are investing in the next boom (some would speculate that this is 'sustainability') while also buying off the homes, businesses and commodities of the 'fallen'.

              Hi WD,

              Thanks
              Signature


              Roger Davis

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3209668].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
                Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

                Hi CD,

                It's not a difference though. I agree with you - in my goldrush analogy, there is still gold - just less.

                People are still trading CDOs and buying CDSs (as far as I know).

                The one aspect I thought that people would dispute (in the real IM situation vs goldrush analogy) is where I said in the goldrush analogy that there is less gold. I presumed that they would say I was wrong because there are seemingly (and probably are in reality) more newbies to IM.

                This does make a positive difference to the shovel sellers. But this is offset against -

                * the big guys getting a grip on more of the market

                * the massive increase in shovel sellers (not least, from newbies maturing into shovel sellers)

                * the worldwide 'recession', which has transferred wealth. I doubt that those at the top of the tree who now have a greater portion of the wealth (and know how to use it) are buying WSOs. They are investing in the next boom (some would speculate that this is 'sustainability'.)

                Hi WD,

                Thanks
                But....Wouldn't the market respectively enlarge to accomodate those who would be sellers of the shovels? Just like in the gold rush the market demanded and anyone that was smart enough could cash in on that.
                It is the same in this business find a need and fill it. The problem is people don't know they should be looking for the shovels instead of the gold.

                And even if they found the gold would they be wise enough to invest it back into their business to get a bigger shovel?
                See part of the problem as I see it is that the market demands the gold already panned-push button solutions. But in reality they need to dig and sometimes dig for a long time maybe even have to move upstream (switch niches,change methods,etc...)

                It seems to me that this entire industry is based on offering the solutions to the problems(shovels) But there are the exceptions that have been around long enough to cause an impact that are offering the fools gold (shiny objects) and forgetting about the shovels
                Just my thought
                -Will
                Signature

                "As a man thinks in his heart so is he-Proverbs 23:7"
                Coming Soon http://graphicsdon.com

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3209698].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                  Hi Paulie888,

                  Identifying these honest and ethical sellers is only going to get more difficult, because they'll obviously refuse to stoop down to the level of these charlatans
                  I agree with the first part before the comma.

                  But how many times recently have we seen comments in threads where someone says 'I bought this recommendation blind, on impulse, because seller A has proven himself to be trustworthy and has never let me down....but now, after refunding in anger, I will not trust him anymore and have unsubscribed too. He must be getting desperate.'

                  I have seen it loads - in here, and for myself (I'm not on any IM lists anymore except for product update lists - which coincidentally have moved away from being product update lists and strangely become hard-sell lists.)

                  I agree that some will not stoop to the charlatan level, but definitely not all. Some who have stooped definitely were the 'good guys,' but desperation/temptation has set in.

                  Stark choice - starve with integrity or eat in shame with the big bad red guy.

                  Hi WD,

                  But....Wouldn't the market respectively enlarge to accomodate those who would be sellers of the shovels? Just like in the gold rush the market demanded and anyone that was smart enough could cash in on that.
                  No. In the goldrush, the amount of gold is finite. In IM, overall there is less money (global 'recession'.)

                  The problem is people don't know they should be looking for the shovels instead of the gold.
                  We're all ultimately after the gold, but it's not lying around anymore so you need shovels to dig it out.

                  It seems to me that this entire industry is based on offering the solutions to the problems(shovels) But there are the exceptions that have been around long enough to cause an impact that are offering the fools gold (shiny objects) and forgetting about the shovels.
                  Sorry - my multiple analogies have confused the issue.

                  For clarity -

                  You have consumers, sellers-to-consumers and sellers-to-sellers.

                  Consumers buy the end product (niche product, physical product.)

                  Sellers-to-consumers sell this end product.

                  Sellers-to-sellers are what we call IMers. They sell 'shovels' to the sellers-to-consumers.

                  But what confuses this is that the forum here contains (IMers) who are sellers-to-sellers, or sellers-to-consumers, or both.

                  The 'gold' is the money that changes hands. The fool's gold is usually referring to bad products sold by sellers-to-sellers.
                  Signature


                  Roger Davis

                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3209758].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
                    Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

                    Hi Paulie888,



                    I agree with the first part before the comma.

                    But how many times recently have we seen comments in threads where someone says 'I bought this recommendation blind, on impulse, because seller A has proven himself to be trustworthy and has never let me down....but now, after refunding in anger, I will not trust him anymore and have unsubscribed too. He must be getting desperate.'

                    I have seen it loads - in here, and for myself (I'm not on any IM lists anymore except for product update lists - which coincidentally have moved away from being product update lists and strangely become hard-sell lists.)

                    I agree that some will not stoop to the charlatan level, but definitely not all. Some who have stooped definitely were the 'good guys,' but desperation/temptation has set in.

                    Stark choice - starve with integrity or eat in shame with the big bad red guy.

                    Hi WD,



                    No. In the goldrush, the amount of gold is finite. In IM, overall there is less money (global 'recession'.)



                    We're all ultimately after the gold, but it's not lying around anymore so you need shovels to dig it out.



                    Sorry - my multiple analogies have confused the issue.

                    For clarity -

                    You have consumers, sellers-to-consumers and sellers-to-sellers.

                    Consumers buy the end product (niche product, physical product.)

                    Sellers-to-consumers sell this end product.

                    Sellers-to-sellers are what we call IMers. They sell 'shovels' to the sellers-to-consumers.

                    But what confuses this is that the forum here contains (IMers) who are sellers-to-sellers, or sellers-to-consumers, or both.

                    The 'gold' is the money that changes hands. The fool's gold is usually referring to bad products sold by sellers-to-sellers.
                    O.K. I think I understand what you are getting at. But I have to disagree just a bit. The sellers selling the fools gold are hitting 2 markets sellers and consumers.

                    So the sellers buy product x that says it converts at x% the consumer buys the same product marketed a different way with promises of it being the gold magnet-push this and do this and the gold will start coming right to you sort of thing.

                    You then have 2 major problems one is the sellers themselves put that product up and sell it thereby hurting their reputation and possibly destroying it.
                    The second is you have the consumer who although should have been wiser was hit with the goldrush fever and bought it only to find it is indeed just a shiny object and nothing to it. So the consumer complains. now to the seller and original product creator.

                    original product creator could care less because their 27-97 bucks means squat in the face of thousands of units sold. the seller on the other hand gets hit hard so the industry inevitably is the one that suffers as a result of the product creators downright bull tactics in hopes of gaining the gold in exchange for shiny crap sold they know is not going to do what has been represented but they greedily take it anyway.

                    in both instances the product is presented as a money getter and in both instances the only ones who get the gold are the ones who sold it to begin with.
                    This is what is happening in our industry right now people are suffering due to the morons selling these things and really all the consumer and seller want is the shovel to dig the gold out.
                    In both instances the ones hurt are the consumer and reseller.
                    -Will
                    Signature

                    "As a man thinks in his heart so is he-Proverbs 23:7"
                    Coming Soon http://graphicsdon.com

                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3209796].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                      Hi WD,

                      the consumer buys the same product marketed a different way with promises of it being the gold magnet-push this and do this and the gold will start coming right to you sort of thing.
                      When someone buys a product to sell on to someone else (a 'make money' product,) he is not a consumer anymore (in this instance). He becomes a seller-to-consumer or a seller-to-seller. The only buyers of fools' gold in this instance (IE the ones we are discussing here) are these last two.

                      If it's a 'make money' product that he then sells on he becomes a seller-to-seller.

                      If it's an end-user product that he then sells on (an ebook about warts (niche product) or a football (physical product)) he becomes a seller-to-consumer.

                      So when a consumer buys a 'make money' product he stops being a consumer (in this instance) and becomes a seller.

                      Of course, if someone sells a bad end user product (like a fake 'lose weight' system that doesn't work) then this is a problem in the market - but to bring in this aspect only confuses the issue. That's why I am focussing on the topic talked about in the OP - bad 'make money' products.

                      I don't think Eric was referring to CB products that purport to help with wart removal or losing weight. He listed the categories (somewhere in the thread) and also mentioned 'blind copy' - you can't easily sell weight loss products or wart removal ebooks with blind copy. You CAN use blind copy to sell IM products that only hint at the content and the enclosed system.
                      Signature


                      Roger Davis

                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3209845].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
                        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

                        Hi WD,

                        When someone buys a product to sell on to someone else (a 'make money' product,) he is not a consumer anymore (in this instance). He becomes a seller-to-consumer or a seller-to-seller. The only buyers of fools' gold in this instance (IE the ones we are discussing here) are these last two.

                        If it's a 'make money' product that he then sells on he becomes a seller-to-seller.

                        If it's an end-user product that he then sells on (an ebook about warts (niche product) or a football (physical product)) he becomes a seller-to-consumer.

                        So when a consumer buys a 'make money' product he stops being a consumer (in this instance) and becomes a seller.

                        Of course, if someone sells a bad end user product (like a fake 'lose weight' system that doesn't work) then this is a problem in the market - but to bring in this aspect only confuses the issue. That's why I am focussing on the topic talked about in the OP - bad 'make money' products.

                        I don't think Eric was referring to CB products that purport to help with wart removal or losing weight. He listed the categories (somewhere in the thread) and also mentioned 'blind copy' - you can't easily sell weight loss products or wart removal ebooks with blind copy. You CAN use blind copy to sell IM products that only hint at the content and the enclosed system.
                        I see where you are coming from here Roger.

                        But in my eyes you have the 2 distinct groups of individuals. the ones who will sell and the ones who will buy to use. So you then have the same as the offline world seller to seller (b2b) and the consumer.
                        In both instances it is these 2 groups who are suffering at the hands of the first party.

                        Specifically the rash of push button make money in 1o hrs kind of products that have left a lot of folks upset. So to be clear the products being sold ARE niche products.

                        Whether b2b or retailer to consumer inevitably these products that have been released this past 3 months have flooded the marketplace which in one sense is applaudable. but. The ones being hurt are the people who recommended them and the ones who bought them. I stand by my previous analogy of this situation
                        -Will
                        Signature

                        "As a man thinks in his heart so is he-Proverbs 23:7"
                        Coming Soon http://graphicsdon.com

                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3209955].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
                          Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

                          I see where you are coming from here Roger.

                          But in my eyes you have the 2 distinct groups of individuals. the ones who will sell and the ones who will buy to use. So you then have the same as the offline world seller to seller (b2b) and the consumer.
                          In both instances it is these 2 groups who are suffering at the hands of the first party.

                          Specifically the rash of push button make money in 1o hrs kind of products that have left a lot of folks upset. So to be clear the products being sold ARE niche products.

                          Whether b2b or retailer to consumer inevitably these products that have been released this past 3 months have flooded the marketplace which in one sense is applaudable. but. The ones being hurt are the people who recommended them and the ones who bought them. I stand by my previous analogy of this situation
                          -Will
                          Will,

                          It might clarify (or confuse:confused the issue if we look at a different kind of gold - Colombian "gold".

                          The bigtime-traffickers make the millions, their distributors can also have a profitable business, providing they don't use the product themselves, and the ones who always get screwed are the end user aka the junkies.


                          Martin
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3210000].message }}
                          • Profile picture of the author paulie888
                            Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

                            Will,

                            It might clarify (or confuse:confused the issue if we look at a different kind of gold - Colombian "gold".

                            The bigtime-traffickers make the millions, their distributors can also have a profitable business, providing they don't use the product themselves, and the ones who always get screwed are the end user aka the junkies.


                            Martin
                            What a delightful and twisted analogy, lol! It is certainly relevant in this case though, especially when the product in question is pure crap and has no beneficial value whatsoever.

                            The only real value to be derived from these crappy products is through selling them - they have absolutely no intrinsic value.

                            Paul
                            Signature
                            >>> Features Jason Fladlien, John S. Rhodes, Justin Brooke, Sean I. Mitchell, Reed Floren and Brad Gosse! <<<
                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3210011].message }}
                          • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
                            Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

                            Will,

                            It might clarify (or confuse:confused the issue if we look at a different kind of gold - Colombian "gold".

                            The bigtime-traffickers make the millions, their distributors can also have a profitable business, providing they don't use the product themselves, and the ones who always get screwed are the end user aka the junkies.


                            Martin
                            LOL that is a strong analogy martin, Heroine is a great example of the junk products as that is the street name

                            What you have though if I can take it one step further is you have the first party-distributor,the street vendor ,to relate it to Im you have the seller or affiliate and if they have not used the product themselves they do not know what they are selling so they are being led blindly. You then have the junkie-this is also a good analogy because they are inevitably consuming junk.

                            So the people getting screwed are the sellers and buyers while the distributor is reaping the profit and can care less about the dealer or junkie . on the street if bad junk goes around you could probably find that dealer dead. that is a raw but relative example.
                            -Will
                            Signature

                            "As a man thinks in his heart so is he-Proverbs 23:7"
                            Coming Soon http://graphicsdon.com

                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3210019].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author paulie888
                    Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

                    Hi Paulie888,



                    I agree with the first part before the comma.

                    But how many times recently have we seen comments in threads where someone says 'I bought this recommendation blind, on impulse, because seller A has proven himself to be trustworthy and has never let me down....but now, after refunding in anger, I will not trust him anymore and have unsubscribed too. He must be getting desperate.'

                    I have seen it loads - in here, and for myself (I'm not on any IM lists anymore except for product update lists - which coincidentally have moved away from being product update lists and strangely become hard-sell lists.)

                    I agree that some will not stoop to the charlatan level, but definitely not all. Some who have stooped definitely were the 'good guys,' but desperation/temptation has set in.

                    Stark choice - starve with integrity or eat in shame with the big bad red guy.
                    Hi Roger, no disagreement here. There are obviously some marketers who were ethical and honest to begin with, and then turned to the dark side in marketing the typical hype-filled crap we see in the IM marketplace.

                    It is either desperation or the temptation/greed to extract easy money from the fresh-eyed and innocent newbies that makes them do it, but either way it is a deplorable practice that needs to be stopped.

                    The truly honest and ethical ones will not stoop to this level, but as we've seen not everyone will have this level of integrity. Some will perhaps rationalize it as selling useful information to newbies (particularly in the case of more established marketers who have actually put some effort into product creation) who would otherwise not buy it, if not for the hype-filled sales copy.

                    Paul
                    Signature
                    >>> Features Jason Fladlien, John S. Rhodes, Justin Brooke, Sean I. Mitchell, Reed Floren and Brad Gosse! <<<
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3209851].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author RobinInTexas
      Originally Posted by rickfrazier1 View Post

      ---x--snip--x---
      Worse, the newest product requested a phone number, and like a fool, I actually provided a real one.
      ---x--snip--x---
      I have an effective if not perfect solution to the pone calling problem. My phone allows different "ringers" to be selected depending on the caller. One of the ringers I can choose is "None". The second and subsequent time they call is not the least bit intrusive.
      Signature

      Robin



      ...Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just set there.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190981].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author humbledmarket
    Banned
    Very Well said my friend ;D Thanks
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3184004].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author UnsungHero
      I 100% agree with your post, and sadly, i'm starting to get these crappy offers
      pushed into my inbox from marketers who i did (Keyword: did) respect because
      of the product I bought from them which were normally incredibly high quality,
      its just sad to see the decline in who actually gives a crap about the little guy
      these days. They just don't want to help us any longer. (if they ever did?)
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3186044].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    [DELETED]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3184106].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author whawk57
      Originally Posted by Whisper01Barry View Post


      Sorry for the vent--there is a BIG PROBLEM!!!!

      Barry

      Sorry Barry, but I think it's your problem because you didn't know.Be careful where you make business even offline, right? But on the good side now, is that you learned a good lesson on 'How to buy websites from strangers'.
      Cheers
      Signature

      Peace!



      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3184685].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author vrobinson57
    It is my belief that the internet giant are aware of this and are trying to tighten the nooze on the unscruplus marketers out there, but some of them will always beat the raps.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3184228].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Marketer X
    Now for a different point of view that Warriors are just going to LOVE...

    I'm posting this under a pen name because I fear the wrath of the psychos...

    Trust me... I have enough cahones to say this in public (because I don't need you're "Reputation Juice" to have a successful business), but I think of my family's safety first.


    Point #1 - The only way to make money is to
    promote products that convert. Unlike tons
    and tons of people on this forum, some of
    our trafic is 99% "Newbie Traffic."

    They simply WILL NOT BUY the kind of pitches
    that your lists buy. So go create sales
    pitches that absolute beginners will buy,
    and you'll have more support promoting
    them than you can handle!


    Point #2 - Often these sales pages you're
    talking about sell them what they want
    and give them a good product. So in the
    end, the customer gets a quality product
    that will help them.

    That's exactly how I started off online...
    I was frustrated and went looking for
    the shortcuts, and what I found on the
    other end were hardcore business strategies.


    Point #3 - The CB marketers are the most
    loyal bunch of marketers online. When
    they say they're going to do something,
    they do it. When they say they're going
    to support you, they do it.

    Other networks of internet marketers are
    absolute flakes. When you roll out a
    product, you know the CB guys have
    your back to help get it in the hands of others.

    In other words... what the heck have you
    ever done for me and why should I listen
    to you? You haven't done jack for me,
    but here's a group over here that WILL
    always come through.

    I call it friendship and loyalty.


    Point #4 - I really do care about people.
    I really do. That's why I love it when
    a killer product ends up in the hands of
    a customer... even if it had to be sold
    with aggressive sales tactics.

    I can tell you the names of tons of guys
    who get flamed because of their sales
    material, but they really do care about
    their customers and they have created
    more millionaires with their teachings
    than you could ever dream...

    Wake up. They sell like that because
    that's what people buy... not advanced
    Warrior Forum members... but beginners
    and traffic that was generated from
    REAL CPA, PPC, and SEO marketing...
    Not just by tapping Warrior Forum and
    ad swapping all day.

    These gurus often have great things to
    teach and when they do, I support their
    launches regardless of how they sell...
    because all I care about is 2 fold:
    1) it has to convert, and 2) the
    product has to make a difference in the
    lives of the customers.


    Point #5 - I don't want to cater to a
    bunch of jerk customers. The whino
    internet marketers are the biggest
    serial refunding jerks in the history
    of the internet.

    They expect a home study course for $5
    or $5,000 software for $37. They're
    stingy, they're jerks to deal with,
    and they steal products by serial
    refunding quality products all the time.

    Then on the other side of the spectrum,
    the beginners, who can take your teachings
    and appreciate them for their actual value.
    Then they go on to be successes because
    they don't get caught up in befriending
    or listening to a word of the whinny
    jerks who blame all their lack of success
    on the gurus.


    Point #6 - I have a philiosophy that goes
    like this... I will give everyone on my
    list a chance to get the most valuable
    products and services out there the first
    20 days their on my list...

    And if they don't buy, I'm going to start
    giving them what they want... because they're
    going to buy it anyway and it might as
    well be through my link.


    Point #7 - If the customer doesn't like it,
    he can get a refund. Since we're promoting
    ClickBank products, we promote products that
    have a no-questions-asked refund policy.


    Point #8 - Now let me clear this up about
    screen shots... How are you to know if the
    screen shots are false or not? In a lot of
    cases they may be true. When you're the
    affiliate, you have no idea.

    You may think they are fake because you
    don't believe that much money can be
    made online. But the world of internet
    marketing is MUCH bigger than Warrior forum.

    This forum only gets 60,000 unique visitors
    per month. Heck, that's the traffic volume
    of a nobody weightloss site.


    Point #9 - You think of the CB products
    as being part of "your" market, when it's
    really not. It's a completely different
    market with a completely different target
    audience. So why do you care so much?
    We never talk trash about you.


    Point #10 - There are SO many hippocrits
    that it's not even funny. Most of the so
    called "Ethical Marketers" go create 80,000
    products based on their philosophies and ones
    they stole from gurus... and all they do is
    piddle their crappy little WSOs to other
    Warrior members...then go ad swap and say
    they're righteous.

    A lot of the gurus who sell CB products
    are out there spending thousands of dollars
    A DAY on CPA, PPC, and other paid traffic
    methods... on SEO... outsourcing... and their
    doing it in many different markets.

    And they're teaching this stuff inside their
    products. They're the REAL marketers in my
    book... The "Ethical Marketers" are just
    posers who generate good will by saying how
    righteous they are.

    And they build their brand by creating
    a million products based on stuff they don't
    even do, and they go sell coaching...
    Good for them. If they had to go in another
    market besides IM, they couldn't make a living
    if their lives depended on it.

    Point #11 - The gurus... a lot of the CB guys... they do
    NOT NEED YOU... They don't need a good reputation
    on Warrior Forum in order to make a sale like the
    "Ethical Marketer" and his small reach of prospects.

    Want to know why? Because they actually know
    how to market and advertise a website...
    And that's exactly what they teach in their
    products.

    You say you're sick of gurus...

    I say I'm sick of posers who act like they
    have something to teach but don't know jack.

    Nuff said. Now flame away.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3184264].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    In the Warrior Forum, I think many of us (but nothing close to a majority) have reached the final stage of sophistication in this market. The 4 stages of sophistication are clearly described in, "Breakthrough Advertising." The hyped-up, stage 1 and 2 copy clearly will not resonate with the people who've moved out of those stages.

    Secondarily, anyone who has spent any time at all here, has a level of awareness that is also at its most advanced point. In short, we're jaded. Our perspectives have changed.

    This is not to say there aren't plenty of worthless products in the market, just that we're not the target.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3184420].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author whawk57
    Really it's up to the people who want to buycrap anyway.
    What goes around comes around. If you focus on some cr*p then you receive it.
    Maybe your product was craptoo so you've been attracting morecrap around you plus you are complaining about it, creating even more crapattraction. lol.
    What if you have a wonderful product?
    Surely you wouldn't be in thiscrap, you ARE surrounded by wonderful people and good products. Focus and it expands. What about the flood of good offers ? 100x more than crapoffers for sure.
    Peace.
    Signature

    Peace!



    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3184569].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Robert Colle
    Well thank you for standing up so high and defending the IM that we all very much have at heart.

    I particularly don't give a rat's ass what these liars are doig or promoting because i have a rule I never promotes anybodys's product as a matter of fact. Those engaging themselves with liars are the people to be blame even more.

    As for those buying well I don't know what to tell them. Maybe they don't just like their money or have so much they want to give out some.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3184903].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author dexterfulton
    Finally, someone spoke out. It's about time. I think everyone is sick of people cracking the code to success every week with re-hased junk.

    Thanks Eric
    Signature
    Simple steps for DOMINATING your local market with a "Proven Formula" from a credible Atlanta based Search Engine Marketing Company
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3185025].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author CyberSorcerer
    But if you think about it, the same stuff rehashed is what the newbies need.

    MMO ebooks, courses, audio, etc can only go over the basics in just so many different ways. I mean there's only so many ways you can explain niche research, keyword research, etc. Newbies that are just getting into IM, these are the things they need to learn.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3185241].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jgregory
    I can't really comment on the state of this forum, but perhaps I can shed some light on the history of marketing.

    What was Old is New Again

    Maybe you've heard this old proverb... There is nothing new under the
    Sun. I've found that truth in many areas, and especially marketing. Our friend the CopyBlogger has an interesting take on this pertaining to content Article: How to Create Remarkable Content When There

    Gullibity is a constant throughout human history. Propaganda is useless without believers. "Looking for something for nothing"... seems a prerequisite mentality for these sales letters to work.

    Rational thinking, based on solid facts proven by sound analysis, all leading to sound decisions. Let's ask ourselves... Is that something you're likely to find in the majority of the population on a consistent basis? The masses have arrived. The first WF was a completely different place in the old days

    The Magic Hat Trick

    I switched from retail businesses in the mid-80's to direct mail, after a fluke discovery surfaced while drinking in a bar one night. This small nugget grabbed my attention and 2 weeks later I was $20 grand richer with only 20 or so hours of my time invested.

    Yep. Using good ol' snail mail and a small targeted mailing list. Even better, was the 96% conversion rate. I stumbled into target marketing and didn't even know what it was! The whole story is a real hoot too.

    I thought... "hmmmm, maybe I should look into this direct mail thing."

    A Repeat Performance?

    This little magic act involving a quick twenty grand really got hold of me in a big way. On the one hand, you could say I got lucky. Not true in the reality of it, but my next direct mail success took months of hard work learning the business and prepping myself to succeed. Lots and lots of research and hard work.

    Along the way I was shocked to find that I could not do the "marketing to the masses" method. My Moral Compass just wouldn't point that way. Yet, there was serious money in there for certain marketers. BTW, I did go on in direct mail selling info products to retail businessmen, physical products, and eventually marketing services.

    "The Lazy Man's Way to Riches" - Marketing to the Masses

    Direct mail response to prospects gathered from magazine adverts had been around at least 85 years by the 1980's. Marketing to the masses. Joe Karbo died a slap-bang millionaire in 1980 after making tons from a simple 65 page printed book he sold from full-page magazine ads. he promised something for nothing in the headline, and basically that's what you got with the book. He offered a money-back guarantee and I'm sure he had a low refund rate.

    Why was Karbo successful? As well as the other contender " The Royal Road to Riches."
    Re-read paragraphs 2 & 3 above The interesting history of karbo and this period is explored a professor Randall Bytwerk - The Millionaire on the Beach: The Language of Get-Rich-Quick Plans

    Internet Marketing is Just the New Game in Town

    These IM sales letters are just a rehash of the same old, same old. A down-side twist on the mythological hero quest. Dreamers buy dreams. Businessmen buy tools and assets.

    You've got to choose where to pitch your tent. Its a choice for all of us. As the Copywriting Queen says above, its a personal choice even service providers can make. Doing the decent thing, she becomes a positive influence by example. People do watch the good guys.

    Regards,
    Jan

    PS I've never sold an IM product or service. Only professionals and entrepreneurs on my list.

    PPS I may just try IM, if I figure out how to find the real-world businessmen in the crowd.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3185347].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Yes, there's a lot of crap out there. How is this new?

      Answer: It's not. The only difference between now and five or eight years ago is that there are so many people in the market that there's more of it as an absolute quantity. I'm not at all sure there's more as a percentage.

      There's more than there was 15 years ago, as a percentage, because the market was small enough back then that screwing people over was something you didn't get to do more than once without being caught and exposed to the entire marketplace. But there are 166 times as many people online now as there were then, and they're not as highly centered in any one place as they were then.

      Back then, I could sit down on a Friday afternoon and read every single email sent by every single email marketer in this space for the entire week and be done in a few hours. Now I couldn't do that if it's all I did for the entire week.

      You're not going to fix the problem with rating systems or "ethical marketer's groups." There have been plenty such systems and such groups over the years that were created, run, or gamed by the exact sort of people you're trying to exclude from the marketplace. Even the ones that stuck to their original goals faithfully haven't made enough of a dent to be noticed outside their memberships.

      And you're not going to make even a tiny little dent in it by posting about it here. For all the influence this place might have, it's still a tiny little portion of the overall market, and only a small fraction of the people here will read most threads. For example, probably something less than 200 people have read even a single post in this thread. As a rule, they'll be people already disposed to agree with the sentiment expressed in the thread title.

      All these threads tend to do is to push more and more people toward cynicism. That may not be the outcome you wanted, but that's what you're creating with them.

      Shane said it nicely:
      Be the change you want to see in the market.
      That's the most effective thing you can do.

      I have a fairly small subscriber base compared to some folks posting or mentioned in this thread, but I will get to a lot more people with an email to my subscribers than will ever read anything posted here, by anyone other than (maybe) Allen. How much more true is that for some others?

      Screw complaining about it here. That accomplishes exactly nothing productive. Just go out there and Nike that sumbiyatch.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3185699].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author paulie888
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Yes, there's a lot of crap out there. How is this new?

        Answer: It's not. The only difference between now and five or eight years ago is that there are so many people in the market that there's more of it as an absolute quantity. I'm not at all sure there's more as a percentage.

        There's more than there was 15 years ago, as a percentage, because the market was small enough back then that screwing people over was something you didn't get to do more than once without being caught and exposed to the entire marketplace. But there are 166 times as many people online now as there were then, and they're not as highly centered in any one place as they were then.

        Back then, I could sit down on a Friday afternoon and read every single email sent by every single email marketer in this space for the entire week and be done in a few hours. Now I couldn't do that if it's all I did for the entire week.

        You're not going to fix the problem with rating systems or "ethical marketer's groups." There have been plenty such systems and such groups over the years that were created, run, or gamed by the exact sort of people you're trying to exclude from the marketplace. Even the ones that stuck to their original goals faithfully haven't made enough of a dent to be noticed outside their memberships.

        And you're not going to make even a tiny little dent in it by posting about it here. For all the influence this place might have, it's still a tiny little portion of the overall market, and only a small fraction of the people here will read most threads. For example, probably something less than 200 people have read even a single post in this thread. As a rule, they'll be people already disposed to agree with the sentiment expressed in the thread title.

        All these threads tend to do is to push more and more people toward cynicism. That may not be the outcome you wanted, but that's what you're creating with them.

        Shane said it nicely:That's the most effective thing you can do.

        I have a fairly small subscriber base compared to some folks posting or mentioned in this thread, but I will get to a lot more people with an email to my subscribers than will ever read anything posted here, by anyone other than (maybe) Allen. How much more true is that for some others?

        Screw complaining about it here. That accomplishes exactly nothing productive. Just go out there and Nike that sumbiyatch.


        Paul
        Paul, this explains the insane proliferation of these crappy offers, because they know that the marketplace is big enough to sustain dozens of them at any given time. In essence, they're relaunching this crap multiple times and screwing over the marketplace repeatedly until they exhaust it.

        With the marketplace being this enormous, it's unlikely that this will ever happen though. Furthermore, people don't just buy products once and then stop buying after that; present the proper crappy product and wrap it up nicely in deceptive sales copy and video/graphics, and they'll buy it again and again. These people are gluttons for punishment.

        Paul
        Signature
        >>> Features Jason Fladlien, John S. Rhodes, Justin Brooke, Sean I. Mitchell, Reed Floren and Brad Gosse! <<<
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3186424].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Yes, there's a lot of crap out there. How is this new?

        Answer: It's not. The only difference between now and five or eight years ago is that there are so many people in the market that there's more of it as an absolute quantity. I'm not at all sure there's more as a percentage.

        There's more than there was 15 years ago, as a percentage, because the market was small enough back then that screwing people over was something you didn't get to do more than once without being caught and exposed to the entire marketplace. But there are 166 times as many people online now as there were then, and they're not as highly centered in any one place as they were then.

        Back then, I could sit down on a Friday afternoon and read every single email sent by every single email marketer in this space for the entire week and be done in a few hours. Now I couldn't do that if it's all I did for the entire week.

        You're not going to fix the problem with rating systems or "ethical marketer's groups." There have been plenty such systems and such groups over the years that were created, run, or gamed by the exact sort of people you're trying to exclude from the marketplace. Even the ones that stuck to their original goals faithfully haven't made enough of a dent to be noticed outside their memberships.

        And you're not going to make even a tiny little dent in it by posting about it here. For all the influence this place might have, it's still a tiny little portion of the overall market, and only a small fraction of the people here will read most threads. For example, probably something less than 200 people have read even a single post in this thread. As a rule, they'll be people already disposed to agree with the sentiment expressed in the thread title.

        All these threads tend to do is to push more and more people toward cynicism. That may not be the outcome you wanted, but that's what you're creating with them.

        Shane said it nicely:That's the most effective thing you can do.

        I have a fairly small subscriber base compared to some folks posting or mentioned in this thread, but I will get to a lot more people with an email to my subscribers than will ever read anything posted here, by anyone other than (maybe) Allen. How much more true is that for some others?

        Screw complaining about it here. That accomplishes exactly nothing productive. Just go out there and Nike that sumbiyatch.


        Paul
        Hey cousin Thibodeaux,

        I certainly agree with a lot of what you are saying, as always, but I do have to say that although this is but a tiny-tiny dent, I've already got a lot of push back from this behind the scenes and it's probably just a mistake to even say anything at all... and probably just a big festering fat waste of time anyway. I mean who cares right?

        And for the record, I was not singling anyone out at all. I was grouping a group together. Some have hit me up about Matt B. I was not talking about him at all. He used his real name, has earned millions online and has taught me some very big things too. I dig Matt. It was not about him. He knows I dig him. He could care less what I'm saying anyway. He's rocking. I've seen him personally change people's lives in the past. He's just being an aggressive marketer focusing on conversions. I was not talking about him

        Besides, if we were at a bar, I bet he'd probably look me in the eye and agree with what Im saying here and say, "Louviere, marketing is marketing is marketing"

        The bottom line is "value" really. Many of us know we can focus on the marketing, and that's what truly brings the money & conversions... not the value... the marketing does it. We know that. You can have a crap product and still earn fortunes -- as we've seen a thousand times over in this market and for the past 200 years

        Godaddy exploded because of brilliant marketing

        My simple point is... if these guys continue to sell crap that gets 60% refund rates and is just designed to screw people and lie to them, and that starts dominating the market, and tipping the scales of the market over to "crap" then this entire market will suffer more than most people realize.

        The market can be heavily influenced by a group of people. We've seen that before. Heck, it can be heavily influenced by an individual... hopefully for the positive. Here's an example of someone impacting the market as an individual in a positive way: Travis Sargo, Bum Marketer.

        Here's another, John Reese, Million Dollar Day.

        Here's another, Frank Kern

        If Allen wanted to, he could impact the entire market (if he wanted to)

        A group of people can do it too, for the positive.

        I'm not saying any of those guys above are perfect, of course not. I'm just using them as an example of individuals who have been able to "impact" the marketplace... to tip the scales... to raise the bar... to pioneer some stuff.

        BUT, a group of people can impact the market for the NEGATIVE too. AND that cousin, is what I'm talking about. Of course, this is a tiny-tiny dent, this thread, and I even stated that in my post, so I agree. However, to do nothing... to sit back and keep my mouth shut... would force me to either A) join them or B) watch the market continue to get more and more filthy while I distance myself into my own little world (like many have done, are doing and will do)

        And yes, there's plenty of opportunity for many to build a good following because they try to treat people well. Sure there is. That's the best choice. I belong to the Warrior Forum, got my start here, learned from you and others here, quit my job here, continue to come back and give here when I can, did a seminar for the WF, did chats, did what I could, even partnered with Allen on a product once. I love this place.

        Therefore, I felt this was THE place to come and voice my feelings... which I did. That's all. I know I will not change anything... but some are more educated about this crap-product stuff than they were before I posted it. Some will pass the word on. Some will post on their blogs like Ross did and Jason F. and others. Many others will. Maybe, just maybe, as a group, we start tipping the scales back over to our side.

        If not, so be it. I'll still make millions.

        Eric Louviere

        PS - those of you who are talking smack to me behind the scenes, one thing to think about is all this ClickBank scam crap is going to be short lived. It will end soon because it always does. It will "shake out" and it will NOT last. It cant. There's no way CB is going to let 60% refunds last. Then what? What will you do then? Right now, you are thinking to yourself... "Eric is right, but I got bills to pay and these guys can bring a lot of traffic... so I'm supporting them... for the sake of my income and putting food on the table".

        I'd keep my mouth shut if I were you because speaking out on their side could "end" your reputation in this market forever (if you use your real name). Speaking out and supporting them... how could that be smart? I recommend you do like the other guy in this thread and register a fake name to state your point, because you certainly dont want the "market" seeing you supporting "crap products". Not smart.

        PPS - What I dont understand is this... why dont they just provide value? I mean, it's not that hard to provide great value... especially if you just pulled in millions. Just overdeliver, how hard is that? Why stick it to people if that was not your INTENTION in the first place? I dont get it. but whatever.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3189562].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Ay, Boudreaux,

          The pushback is a constant. If you play in those circles, certain things are expected. That's why I don't play in those circles.

          I rarely promote affiliate products or the big launches.

          Yes, a group of people can impact the market, for good or ill. The real question is, do they do it as a group, or as individuals working in similar directions? I think the latter is more likely to get results.

          The Warriors, for example, have an enormous impact. It's not direct, though. It's a matter of attitude expressed over time, and carried out to broader segments of the marketplace.

          You're right about the 60% refund rates being a short term thing, I suspect. It doesn't make sense for Clickbank to allow that to continue.


          Paul
          Signature
          .
          Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3189683].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Marketer X
          Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

          I'd keep my mouth shut if I were you because speaking out on their side could "end" your reputation in this market forever (if you use your real name). Speaking out and supporting them... how could that be smart? I recommend you do like the other guy in this thread and register a fake name to state your point, because you certainly dont want the "market" seeing you supporting "crap products". Not smart.
          I disagree with you about ClickBank products being crap products for one. It totally depends on the vendor. Anybody can sell a product on ClickBank.

          Me sticking up for ClickBank vendors has nothing to do with wanting to push crap products, but I guess you can interpret it however you want.

          My last reply was about the way the products are advertised, not about the quality of the products. Often great products have "scammy" looking sales pages because they sell, and that was my point in a nutshell.

          And on the contrary...

          You just sucker punched your own affiliates and friends in front of 60,000 marketers.

          So... by bashing ClickBank vendors, people who promote ClickBank products, and good people who have supported you in the past, I think you're the one who's actually shot yourself in the foot.

          It actually hurts to see you say some of the things you've said in this thread. But I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed that you wouldn't handle your feelings about the industry in a calm and civilized way instead. Not by basically lynching good people in front of the whole of Warrior Forum.

          And for the record... I've never in my life promoted a ClickBank product that had a 60% refund rate. That's total and utter BS.

          Here's the problem with high refund rates on ClickBank...

          Often serial refunders buy ClickBank products for one.

          Two, just ask anyone who has a quality product who switched from ClickBank to using their own shopping cart. They'll tell you refund rates dropped to almost being non-existent when you sell through your own shopping cart, but sky high on ClickBank.

          Therefore, high refund rates are often due to the fact that the product is on ClickBank. Not because it's a lousy product.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3189977].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author paulie888
    Eric, you've shed some very welcome light on this "crap product" situation which has been brewing for a while now and is very likely to reach critical mass soon.

    It seems like all these crap offers have burgeoned as the economy has gone down the toilet, and in today's desperate times, it is obvious the sellers are taking advantage of economic factors to make a killing in the marketplace (refunds be damned as long as their product launch is ultimately profitable).

    What's really sad is that product quality has now taken a back seat to hype and blind sales copy. It'd not surprise me at all if many of these marketers outsource the product creation almost as an afterthought for a few hundred dollars without even really caring much about the value of the content, and instead pay far more attention to the setting up of sales funnels that ensure maximum EPC, and spend thousands of dollars on really enticing sales copy to hook prospects into buying the crap product.

    It's a sad state of affairs, but unfortunately as long as there are willing and naive newbies out there still looking for a pushbutton magic overnight moneymaking system, this ugly phenomenon will continue to exist and even thrive.

    Paul
    Signature
    >>> Features Jason Fladlien, John S. Rhodes, Justin Brooke, Sean I. Mitchell, Reed Floren and Brad Gosse! <<<
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3185821].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Kezz
    Just for the record, Eric hasn't said ClickBank products are crap.

    On the contrary, he's said he thinks ClickBank itself is great and many quality offers are sold through it.

    What he's pointing out is when there is a big gulf between the promises on some sales pages and what actually gets delivered in the product.

    If someone delivers what they promise, whether it's to beginners or anyone else, nobody here has the slightest issue with them.

    But if you knowingly target people with the conscious intention of delivering a product you are fully aware is low quality, that's a straight up scam.

    I don't advertise the pictures of my Porsche, get you to pay up, then deliver you a VW beetle.

    It's all about intent.

    What's so wrong with asking someone to deliver what they've sold?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190029].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Marketer X
      Originally Posted by Kezz View Post

      Just for the record, Eric hasn't said ClickBank products are crap.

      On the contrary, he's said he thinks ClickBank itself is great and many quality offers are sold through it.

      What he's pointing out is when there is a big gulf between the promises on some sales pages and what actually gets delivered in the product.

      If someone delivers what they promise, whether it's to beginners or anyone else, nobody here has the slightest issue with them.

      But if you knowingly target people with the conscious intention of delivering a product you are fully aware is low quality, that's a straight up scam.

      I don't advertise the pictures of my Porsche, get you to pay up, then deliver you a VW beetle.

      It's all about intent.

      What's so wrong with asking someone to deliver what they've sold?
      I think at this point... I want to know WHO in the heck IS Eric talking about?

      He just said he supports Matt B and Matt B's sales page is aggressive and blind but delievers an extremely high quality product.

      So WHO exactly are we talking about here in this thread because it's getting more and more vague.

      At first it was CB vendors. Now it's not blind sales pages? Seriously... who are we referring to of the 17,000+ vendors on ClickBank?

      ...

      As for sales pages, it sounds like you want to create one that reads like a technical manual that keeps nothing hidden and nothing blind.

      That's not going to convert.

      Benefits + Curiosity is the ultimate formula for high conversion rates.

      If a letter sells you like that then delivers and incredible product, is it really incongruent?

      I don't think so because it's blind. It doesn't claim to be something else that it's not. It just claims to not be certain things.

      Then you have to order to find out what's in the box. So you "open" the box and look inside and there's either a kickbutt product or a product you don't care for... and you can shoot a quick email to ClickBank and get a no-questions-asked refund for that product if you don't like it.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190059].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
        Originally Posted by Marketer X View Post

        So WHO exactly are we talking about here in this thread because it's getting more and more vague.

        At first it was CB vendors. Now it's not blind sales pages? Seriously... who are we referring to of the 17,000+ vendors on ClickBank?
        I don't have a dog in this fight but I don't think anyone is going to name names in this thread directly.

        They won't because of rule #1 of this forum and because breaking that rule would get the thread locked, them banned from the forum, or both of these actions.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190090].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Marketer X
          Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

          I don't have a dog in this fight but I don't think anyone is going to name names in this thread directly.

          They won't because of rule #1 of this forum and because breaking that rule would get the thread locked, them banned from the forum, or both of these actions.
          I know the rule. I'm not asking for names. I actually fully support the rule.

          I just want to know who basically Eric is talking about. Because I had an idea in mind, but now that he says he supports that particular marketer, I have no idea who he or anyone else is talking about now.

          If the initial post made other marketers contact Eric behind the scenes and ask him if he's talking trash about a particular marketer, then I think the #1 Warrior Forum rule was broken from the start on this one.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190108].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
        Just use your real name marketer x.

        If the thread is dumb and your points valid, why not post under your real name? What you hiding from? You know more than most exactly what I am talking about. Plus you have an account here with your real name.

        You won't do that because why?

        And why am I posting under my real name?

        What are you defending that I'm attacking?

        You know damn well I was not talking about CB in general. You are smarter than that man.

        We all know they are cold sticking it to people. You know it too. Or, you'd use your real name right now and defend your stance bravely. Blind salesletters that convert is one debatable point and a valid debate indeed. Heck I'm a copywriter too. I get it. But why the crap product and the intention to stick it to them?

        You think that group is freaking out saying... Oh no what is Eric doing??

        Heck no... They have five more launches scheduled and they will be big. If your on their side, go for it. This thread will not deter and there's an abundance of opportunity.

        Besides... Those dooodes are not going to REALLY promote anyone or anything that's not one of those CB offers we are talking about anyway right?
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190136].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
          And you are trying to get the thread deleted.

          Yes, I dig said marketer, he knows that. So I am not bashing any ONE person at all. And I'm not going to fall for your obvious bait to get me to do so. YOU know exactly what I'm talking about and I'm sure you hope this support of them helps you with your next launch
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190173].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Marketer X
            Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

            And you are trying to get the thread deleted.

            Yes, I dig said marketer, he knows that. So I am not bashing any ONE person at all. And I'm not going to fall for your obvious bait to get me to do so. YOU know exactly what I'm talking about and I'm sure you hope this support of them helps you with your next launch
            I have no idea what you're talking about with your "bait."

            Heck, I'm just having a conversation and voicing my opinion.

            What did you expect after you posted something so offensive?
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190339].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
              Originally Posted by Marketer X View Post


              What did you expect after you posted something so offensive?
              Offensive? are you serious?

              Eric basically just said what most people who have bought into one of the launches over the last 3 months has either said or has thought.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190380].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Ron Douglas
                Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                Offensive? are you serious?

                Eric basically just said what most people who have bought into one of the launches over the last 3 months has either said or has thought.
                Agreed. I think Eric made it pretty clear who he was addressing. I'm a Clickbank vendor and I wasn't offended at all.

                Here was his exact words from the OP:

                I've seen countless crap offers flood our market this past year, full of hype, fake screen shots, vague as heck salesletters (blind copy), outrageous claims and big bold lies.
                Call a spade a spade. There is no defending vendors who do that. I also think Clickbank should be more responsible with what they allow on their network.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190398].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author KEY
            how to add something new...

            another aspect of what Eric has brought up is buyer fear
            or reluctance in the future.

            I see this in 2 ways:

            1- how long does anyone think that people will give a damn
            about anyone's recommendation "hey this is a cool product..."
            if what they end up with does not live up to the salespage's
            promise and they ask & get a refund?

            2- creating (and selling) your own products...on one side you
            may think "wow product A, D, E and F are really garbage!
            there is room for me to get my own product out in this niche"

            BUT, there will be buyers that got burned by the 'bad' products
            and are going to be a harder person to convert (if they even are
            still willing to take the risk)

            I am not concerned for the long game, as this should play itself
            out over time. while it will not make business easy? if we all
            follow Eric's simple mantra:
            Learn to drive traffic, build a list, brand yourself,
            create value and distribute value to your market. Create
            real businesses and passive income. Treat people well.
            we should all survive "the flood"

            KEY (eric)

            ps- who really cares which marketers/products? it is about the
            'BIG' selling and not delivering paradigm...
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190372].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Marketer X
          Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

          Just use your real name marketer x.

          If the thread is dumb and your points valid, why not post under your real name? What you hiding from? You know more than most exactly what I am talking about. Plus you have an account here with your real name.

          You won't do that because why?

          And why am I posting under my real name?

          What are you defending that I'm attacking?

          You know damn well I was not talking about CB in general. You are smarter than that man.

          We all know they are cold sticking it to people. You know it too. Or, you'd use your real name right now and defend your stance bravely. Blind salesletters that convert is one debatable point and a valid debate indeed. Heck I'm a copywriter too. I get it. But why the crap product and the intention to stick it to them?

          You think that group is freaking out saying... Oh no what is Eric doing??

          Heck no... They have five more launches scheduled and they will be big. If your on their side, go for it. This thread will not deter and there's an abundance of opportunity.

          Besides... Those dooodes are not going to REALLY promote anyone or anything that's not one of those CB offers we are talking about anyway right?
          If you had any common decency about this and we could get down to the problem and solve it, then I wouldn't mind sharing who I am.

          I have more sense than to walk up to a pissed off bear and let him mall me. So the name's not important, but my point is...

          I think you're out of line to be trashing ClickBank affiliates/JVs and vendors... whichever ones you may be talking about, I have no clue now... on a public forum and it's very hurtful.

          I don't have anything personally against you or anything like that. I just think what you have done is offensive to hardworking ClickBank affiliates such as myself and vendors.

          If someone pointed a finger in your face and called you scammer, wouldn't you be offended? Of course you would.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190300].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
        Originally Posted by Marketer X View Post


        So WHO exactly are we talking about here in this thread because it's getting more and more vague.
        I don't know who he's talking about, but screw it, let's just start guessing....

        Maybe he's talking about the guy who had the sales page that claimed that if you pushed 3 simple buttons you could make $34,000 in one week...and come to find out the 3 button software was an article submitter.

        Maybe he's talking about the guy who had some killer SECRET traffic software that noone has heard about, and then sold you a software for yahoo Answers!

        Maybe he's talking about the guy who had to travel to some far away land to learn the secret to internet marketing that made him hundreds of thousands of dollars in mere months...and then sold a product about putting up websites with PLR!

        Maybe he's talking about the guy who had a killer script that promised to make tens of thousands of dollars over the next week....then sold a squeeze page generator.

        Maybe he's talking about the guy who had yet another killer script that promised to make me so much money that I'd be wiping my ass with 100's and then sold an auto-blog software

        Do we need to go on?

        Buying clickbank launches anymore is like going to the mall, handing your money to someone outside the mall, and then letting him go in, pick you out some stuff, and then bring a bag of stuff outside to you...the stuff might be good, but if I go to the mall to buy a shirt, and the guy brings me out a toaster from Sears, I'm going to be pissed off.

        To me, it's not about "quality" products, because I've bought most of the recent launches just to see what they were, and what I got WAS A DECENT PRODUCT.....it just wasn't what they said it was in the sales letter.

        I've bought just about all the upsells too and guess what? 9 times out of 10 the upsell isn't even ready...the membership that is $37 a month isn't even ready yet...the product is incomplete.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190362].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Marketer X
          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

          I don't know who he's talking about, but screw it, let's just start guessing....

          Maybe he's talking about the guy who had the sales page that claimed that if you pushed 3 simple buttons you could make $34,000 in one week...and come to find out the 3 button software was an article submitter.

          Maybe he's talking about the guy who had some killer SECRET traffic software that noone has heard about, and then sold you a software for yahoo Answers!

          Maybe he's talking about the guy who had to travel to some far away land to learn the secret to internet marketing that made him hundreds of thousands of dollars in mere months...and then sold a product about putting up websites with PLR!

          Maybe he's talking about the guy who had a killer script that promised to make tens of thousands of dollars over the next week....then sold a squeeze page generator.

          Maybe he's talking about the guy who had yet another killer script that promised to make me so much money that I'd be wiping my ass with 100's and then sold an auto-blog software

          Do we need to go on?

          Buying clickbank launches anymore is like going to the mall, handing your money to someone outside the mall, and then letting him go in, pick you out some stuff, and then bring a bag of stuff outside to you...the stuff might be good, but if I go to the mall to buy a shirt, and the guy brings me out a toaster from Sears, I'm going to be pissed off.

          To me, it's not about "quality" products, because I've bought most of the recent launches just to see what they were, and what I got WAS A DECENT PRODUCT.....it just wasn't what they said it was in the sales letter.

          I've bought just about all the upsells too and guess what? 9 times out of 10 the upsell isn't even ready...the membership that is $37 a month isn't even ready yet...the product is incomplete.
          That's who I thought Eric was initially addressing, then I got confused because of how he said he supported someone who launched a blind offer for traffic software.

          So I apologize for the confusion.

          When he said he was behind that marketer, I thought instantly that I must have been mistaken about the types of offers he was talking about.

          I guess now I know that Eric only means what he means when he's NOT talking about his friends.

          When he's talking about his friends, they're held to a different standard than the rest.

          If he doesn't know them and he's not friends with them, then they're flat out scammers to the core.

          Makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190418].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
            Lol, well at least you admit all those others are doing bad things. But you see ONE flaw in my stance and that one flaw is now your focus. So now I can tell you, I did not promote my friends launch because of how it was.

            Next I'll tell you that some of my other friends are busy right now creating similar offers as the ones we are talking about. Yep, some of the push back I'm getting is from friends who I care about. That is very hard on me. That is what is provoking me to be fed up. Oh your group is spreading and that is why this is a bigger deal than most realize.

            Jeremy flat nailed the living crap out of your stance and now you are spinning over to focusing on me. Fine, go ahead.

            Although you posting under a fake name may seem a non issue to you, it is obvious to the rest of us why you are doing so. And if you are who I almost know you are, you have an account here with your real name and many here know of you.

            Why hide? Why attack me if you agree with Jeremy? Is it to earn brownie points with "the group" for your upcoming launch? Besides, aren't you using your real name on that launch?

            All this stuff is bad for my mojo, I'm not liking any of this one bit. In fact it sucks. It just sucks. On one hand I feel I should just shut up. On the other hand, well...
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190496].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author herriott51
              I wouldn't have a problem with the crap if the vendors in question would just agree to all use a dot con extension.

              Steve
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190571].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Okay, folks. Calm it down a bit, please?

              And "Marketer X" ... As soon as you open an anonymous account to respond to something like this, you lose all credibility for any posts under that username. For those of us who actually know who you are, it's not helping your credibility under the other username, either.

              That may be something you want to consider. Or not. That's up to you.


              Paul
              Signature
              .
              Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190771].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Marketer X
              Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

              Lol, well at least you admit all those others are doing bad things. But you see ONE flaw in my stance and that one flaw is now your focus. So now I can tell you, I did not promote my friends launch because of how it was.

              Next I'll tell you that some of my other friends are busy right now creating similar offers as the ones we are talking about. Yep, some of the push back I'm getting is from friends who I care about. That is very hard on me. That is what is provoking me to be fed up. Oh your group is spreading and that is why this is a bigger deal than most realize.

              Jeremy flat nailed the living crap out of your stance and now you are spinning over to focusing on me. Fine, go ahead.

              Although you posting under a fake name may seem a non issue to you, it is obvious to the rest of us why you are doing so. And if you are who I almost know you are, you have an account here with your real name and many here know of you.

              Why hide? Why attack me if you agree with Jeremy? Is it to earn brownie points with "the group" for your upcoming launch? Besides, aren't you using your real name on that launch?

              All this stuff is bad for my mojo, I'm not liking any of this one bit. In fact it sucks. It just sucks. On one hand I feel I should just shut up. On the other hand, well...
              Jeremy sure did nail it lol...

              He said he buys every single one of these products.

              If you want people to stop cranking out blind sales pages, then stop buying the stuff. That's exactly WHY there are blind sales pages, because they work.

              Well... I'm not trying to attack you Stud. I'm on the defense here. You kind of attacked me and all my friends with your initial post.

              I'm not a fighter either. I get along with just about anyone. I'm just here to share my side of the story because like you are sick of us, I've had enough with all the trash talk from all of you and I'm not going to take that crap.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3192470].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                Originally Posted by Marketer X View Post

                Jeremy sure did nail it lol...

                He said he buys every single one of these products.
                I buy them all when I see them asked about in the review section here and then post in the thread to tell everyone what they are.

                I don't give a **** about $37, but many of these new marketers are draining their accounts buying product after product after product after product chasing a well laid out dream in a video that says nothing about what the product is.

                I'll trade my $37 for theirs any day of the week.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3192478].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                Originally Posted by Marketer X View Post

                I've had enough with all the trash talk from all of you and I'm not going to take that crap.
                No, you're just going to be a coward and hide behind a fake name.

                For the record though, I'll say that most of what I've bought has been GOOD it just isn't what is claimed in the videos.

                The article spinner I bought WORKED and I would have paid $37 for it anyway.

                The auto-blog plugin worked and I would have paid $37 for it anway.

                etc

                etc

                etc

                They just weren't the push 3 buttons and get rich products that were claimed in the videos which is where much of the contention comes from.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3192487].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Marketer X
                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                  No, you're just going to be a coward and hide behind a fake name.
                  I hide my name because you guys are angry and that scares me. Angry people do crazy and harmful things. So yes, I guess I am a coward, but nonetheless a smart coward.

                  If you're not going to be civil and talk about this like grownups are supposed to, then I'm not going to put myself in harm's way.

                  I'm simply in this thread because you all have decided to attack me and my friends publicly.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3192535].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                    Originally Posted by Marketer X View Post

                    I hide my name because you guys are angry and that scares me. Angry people do crazy and harmful things. So yes, I guess I am a coward, but nonetheless a smart coward.

                    If you're not going to be civil and talk about this like grownups are supposed to, then I'm not going to put myself in harm's way.

                    I'm simply in this thread because you all have decided to attack me and my friends publicly.
                    I don't think that anyone is looking to be nasty, whoever you are.

                    I think that the facts are what they are.

                    The products themselves just aren't what they are advertised to be.

                    If you and your friends are selling one thing and then giving another perhaps you should think about it in terms of it happening to you?

                    Would you be upset if you went to a steak house and they sold you what was supossed to be the best steak ever and it turned out to be a road kill patty?

                    Would you be upset if you went to the car dealership and the dealer told you that the car was a chick magnet and that it would get you laid around the clock and then sent you home in a Pinto?

                    The only disagreement here really is the WAY these products are advertised...not what the products are....and if you can't see and agree that the way the current run of clickbank products has been advertised is "wrong" then you seriously need to do some soul searching.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3192555].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                  For the record though, I'll say that most of what I've bought has been GOOD it just isn't what is claimed in the videos.
                  I run into this a lot. I don't mind. I know there are a lot of marketers out there who don't know any other way to sell, or haven't found anything that works better, so if they use a little hype and BS to sell the product I don't have any real problem with it.

                  Other people do mind, and get very upset.

                  Personally, I think it's kind of funny when I buy a product that's been pumped up with BS, and it's a perfectly good product they could have sold without it.
                  Signature
                  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3193552].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author paulie888
            Originally Posted by Marketer X View Post

            That's who I thought Eric was initially addressing, then I got confused because of how he said he supported someone who launched a blind offer for traffic software.

            So I apologize for the confusion.

            When he said he was behind that marketer, I thought instantly that I must have been mistaken about the types of offers he was talking about.

            I guess now I know that Eric only means what he means when he's NOT talking about his friends.

            When he's talking about his friends, they're held to a different standard than the rest.

            If he doesn't know them and he's not friends with them, then they're flat out scammers to the core.

            Makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.
            You're sounding awfully defensive there, as though you have a personal and vested interest in this trend toward crap-offer products on CB.

            Eric is speaking the truth here, and while there may be one little flaw in what he's saying, that does not change anything about the current state of crap-products on CB right now. It sounds like he's perhaps hit too close to home for you, and now you feel the need to defend and speak up for yourself since you have somehow participated in this crap-fest.
            Signature
            >>> Features Jason Fladlien, John S. Rhodes, Justin Brooke, Sean I. Mitchell, Reed Floren and Brad Gosse! <<<
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190601].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Marketer X
              Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

              You're sounding awfully defensive there, as though you have a personal and vested interest in this trend toward crap-offer products on CB.

              Eric is speaking the truth here, and while there may be one little flaw in what he's saying, that does not change anything about the current state of crap-products on CB right now. It sounds like he's perhaps hit too close to home for you, and now you feel the need to defend and speak up for yourself since you have somehow participated in this crap-fest.
              You can put words in my mouth all you want...

              I disagree with you.

              If you are you going to say I'm part of the "ClickBank Crap-fest" then I'm going to say you're part of the WSO Crap-fest.

              How does it feel to have a taste of your own medicine?
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3192495].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                Originally Posted by Marketer X View Post

                You can put words in my mouth all you want...

                I disagree with you.

                If you are you going to say I'm part of the "ClickBank Crap-fest" then I'm going to say you're part of the WSO Crap-fest.

                How does it feel to have a taste of your own medicine?
                At least he'll post under his own name and not act like some scared little girl having to create a second account.

                Go find whoever is holding your balls for you, get them back, and come back to this discussion under your real name instead of some fictional account meant to protect your reputation.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3192503].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Marketer X
                  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                  At least he'll post under his own name and not act like some scared little girl having to create a second account.

                  Go find whoever is holding your balls for you, get them back, and come back to this discussion under your real name instead of some fictional account meant to protect your reputation.
                  At least I don't hide my WHO IS information so I can go piddle crummy CPA offers using blackhat tactics.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3192538].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                    Originally Posted by Marketer X View Post

                    At least I don't hide my WHO IS information so I can go piddle crummy CPA offers using BlueFart tactics.
                    lol

                    Tell me something that I do that is black-hat or shut up...simple as that.

                    Every single thing that I've done in the last year and a half I would have no problem laying out in front of my account managers and the Attorney General of any state in the country.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3192561].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Marketer X
                      Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                      lol

                      Tell me something that I do that is black-hat or shut up...simple as that.

                      Every single thing that I've done in the last year and a half I would have no problem laying out in front of my account managers and the Attorney General of any state in the country.
                      Since you asked... gaming EZA using blackhat tactics and link spamming Web 2.0 properties.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3192609].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                        Originally Posted by Marketer X View Post

                        Since you asked... gaming EZA using BlueFart tactics and link spamming Web 2.0 properties.

                        Wrong....try again.

                        I PURCHASE SOLO ADS THAT GO TO MY ARTICLES AT EZA...ANYTHING BLACK-HAT ABOUT THAT?

                        Spamming? Not hardly...I create profiles much the same way that a majority of others doing SEO do...It just so happens that I'm able to automate it better that most.

                        It must be easy for you to point out others faults while hiding behind your skirt....Paul, can you or another mod expose this clown?

                        Speaking of breaking a sites TOS though...the TOS of this site says that you can only have 1 account...pot ---- kettle.....kettle ---- pot
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3192639].message }}
                        • Profile picture of the author Marketer X
                          Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

                          Wrong....try again.

                          I PURCHASE SOLO ADS THAT GO TO MY ARTICLES AT EZA...ANYTHING BLACK-HAT ABOUT THAT?

                          Spamming? Not hardly...I create profiles much the same way that a majority of others doing SEO do...It just so happens that I'm able to automate it better that most.

                          It must be easy for you to point out others faults while hiding behind your skirt....Paul, can you or another mod expose this clown?

                          Speaking of breaking a sites TOS though...the TOS of this site says that you can only have 1 account...pot ---- kettle.....kettle ---- pot
                          I have every right to keep my privacy on a forum or social site.

                          You want to know how I know you game EZA? Because you've created a product about it and sold it here on Warrior Forum. So don't give me that BS.

                          But you know... I could care less.

                          You're calling me a little girl, a coward, and a scammer, so I'm just coming back at you back, you blackhat WSO selling hack.
                          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3192680].message }}
                          • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                            Originally Posted by Marketer X View Post

                            I have every right to keep my privacy on a forum or social site.

                            You want to know how I know you game EZA? Because you've created a product about it and sold it here on Warrior Forum. So don't give me that BS.
                            2 years ago and when I sold it...it wasn't against their TOS

                            Originally Posted by Marketer X View Post

                            But you know... I could care less.

                            You're calling me a little girl, a coward, and a scammer, so I'm just coming back at you back, you BlueFart WSO selling hack.
                            You are a little girl
                            You are a coward
                            You are breaking the TOS of THIS SITE

                            Your purpose is to somehow make people think it's OK to deceive people out of their money...good luck with that.
                            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3192693].message }}
                            • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                              I want to make something perfectly clear for a minute...

                              I think that MANY of the products are VERY GOOD. I just don't think that they are what is advertised. Most of what I've bought has been usable, and many have proven to be big TIME SAVERS.

                              BUT

                              Like I said, they just aren't what was advertised in the sales video.

                              So, this isn't a case of trying to say that the products suck or that they are scams or anything like that. What's being discussed as far as I can tell is the advertising methods used to sell them.
                              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3192924].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Good News Now
    This exact thing has been bugging me, too. It creates distrust. It hurts honest and hard working clean marketers. Thankfully, we have WF. It saved me so much money.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190089].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jaiganeshv
    a detailed eye opening post!!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190393].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sunnygal
    If you treat your customers correctly and deliver on the promises in your salesletter, and don't over-hype your salesletter, you shouldn't have any problems.

    Most experienced marketers will see the offers for what they are - whether that is quality or crap and react accordingly - but unfortunately many newbies are not experienced enough to notice the subtle differences between the two.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190414].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Hey Eric,


    It's like the robbers who think stealing is a victimless crime because they assume their victims have insurance and therefore everyone's a winner.

    In order to polish a turd and sell it to desperate people looking for help you need to have completely bought into some story that justifies tricking people as 'marketing' or told yourself "if they're stupid enough to buy something when they really have no clue what it is - they deserve to be ripped-off".

    Sure you can make money like this - but you can make money selling drugs to kids. Just because something makes money doesn't qualify it as a good idea.

    There's certainly a lot of good reasons for charging people for your time and knowledge so I'm definitely NOT saying that great products shouldn't be created to sell people, just that the signal-to-noise ratio seems to be so high now that most people can't tell a genuine product from a fake. This also means that if they're expecting it's probably fake then they're likely to create a self-fullfilling prophecy and not act enough to get great results.

    This skepticism that is flowing through our niche has the massive downside of making perfectly capable people look for evidence that they're following bad advice or irrelevant strategies and sabotage their own efforts.

    I know enough struggling people that have been in IM for years and are now struggling to make money to know this is true.

    Thanks for saying your piece out loud in spite of knowing that you would take flack for it.

    Andy
    Signature

    nothing to see here.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190698].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi,

      An analogy -

      After the casino bankers, the bloated public sector, the quangos, the politicians, the property-speculators, the bureaucrats and all of the other parasites exhausted themselves trying to pin the blame for the collapse of the economy on each other, they formed together once more in parasitic harmony and put the blame and the cost of the repair bill squarely on the shoulders of the greedy public, who caused the mess with their demands for cheap and easy credit, profits from housing and ravenous consumption of gadgets, fast food and wide screen TVs.

      These push-button riches snake-oil products are only there because of market demand, it's been repeated enough times, hasn't it sunk in yet?

      {/end first instalment of sarcasm and risky political analogy}

      Of course, it has nothing at all to do with the maturity of the market - IE - the major search engine (also a little guy revenue provider via adsense & PPC) combined with the major affiliate programs all closing up shop and squeezing out 95% of the little guys (because they're surplus to requirements now, 'thanks and bye' - woops we forgot to mention it), thus pushing these people into the hands of the unscrupulous little-big guys - 'redundant technique' snake-oil sellers, 'the-best-a-man-can-get' CPA networks, affiliate merchants with unreliable cookies etc. - therefore creating a marketplace that has simply run out of innovative, original, useful and honest ideas and ways for the little guy (en masse) to make money, at the same time as a mass of little guys arriving and setting their stall out to feed from this trough. Budge over oinky-pork-features, that's my swill!

      Nope, nothing to do with that. Carry on...
      Signature


      Roger Davis

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190783].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author drmani
        A quote that has always made me think deeply is by W.C.Fields.

        "You can't cheat an honest man."

        There's two sides to this. One is obvious. The other not so.

        If you're "honest" - and expect to pay fairly for value - you
        won't get "cheated". The knife cuts both ways... so when you
        try and get more value from paying less, that's less than honest
        - and you can be cheated too!

        All success
        Dr.Mani

        P.S. - In the movie version, the quote extends to become:

        "You can't cheat an honest man; never give a sucker an even
        break, or smarten up a chump."


        :-)
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190861].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
          Originally Posted by drmani View Post

          so when you
          try and get more value from paying less - you can be cheated too!

          That sums it up for me.
          Signature

          nothing to see here.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190865].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ShaneRQR
    I've enjoyed reading all the posts here. Some very interesting points indeed.

    I've been thinking about using hypey, even partially blind copy for newbie traffic. There is a case to be made for it, if there's a truly high quality and valuable product attached to it.

    Now, I'm not AT ALL comfortable with creating hypey copy, let alone blind copy. I'd have to hire someone to do it for me.
    But there is one possible justification: The prospects want a system to make money online. I have such a system, it's valuable, taught well and it works.
    If I sell it the way I like to sell things, they won't buy it.
    I.e. if I do it my way, the prospects won't get the thing they really want.
    So is it the right thing to bend the sales-copy in such a way that it makes sure the prospects get the thing that they really want, even if it means using blind copy?
    I hope it's not necessary, but I do see the justification there.

    Although I still wouldn't claim anything to be a "click three buttons to make thousands" type of system.

    My hope is that I can be 100% authentic and down to earth, even in my sales-messages and still get my products into people's hands. I'm working on that.

    One of my subscribers recently told me about a product they had bought and found extremely valuable. The product happend to be come with of these "Extreme Underground Cash Domination Secrets" type of sales-pages. While I don't like pitches like that, I certainly don't hold a grudge against anyone who sells a good product with a pitch like that. As long as they're selling a good product, that's absolutely fine.

    But I don't get "Marketer X"s point, because he makes it seem like all the hypey launches come with high-quality products attached, when I know of several of these launches that turned out to be article spinners or URL scrapers or basic tools like that, that are FAR from push-button money-makers. Two more launches come to mind where the push-button money making system turned out to be information on building a site, then building backlinks. And extremely rudimentary information at that.

    That's what everyone is complaining about, right?
    The products that promise massive riches as soon as you click a button, but instead of a good product, all you get is something extremely basic plus a dozen upsells.

    And if the claims about refund rates in the 50%-70% range for some of these products are correct, that's also a sign that the products aren't exactly providing stellar value.

    To make a long story short:
    The thing I have a problem with is people selling crappy products. What the sales pitch looks like and whether they're on ClickBank or not is secondary.

    Except that I don't really have a problem with it because, as stated before, it's a great opportunity.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3190990].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Collette
      Originally Posted by ShaneRQR View Post

      ...Now, I'm not AT ALL comfortable with creating hypey copy...

      .
      If the product delivers what it says it will, it's not "hype", it's "a promise".

      When Michael Phelps said he would medal in each of his 8 events in the Bejing Olympics, some would have heard that statement as "hype". Eight gold medals proved his statement to be a promise.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3193200].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author RobinInTexas
    Originally Posted by Dan32 View Post

    Eric, have you thought about creating a website exposing these products and scams?
    There are a couple of well establishes sites that expose scams of all sorts, IM and otherwise.

    There is at lease one website that I'm not sure if it's appropriate to link to that seems to do a fair job of fielding critiques (or developing a report card if you prefer that term) of IM products. I think it can be gamed, but it seems to be generally accurate.
    Signature

    Robin



    ...Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just set there.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3192605].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author rileyb
    I havent read all the posts on this thread but I have something to say too.

    Im sick of all the hype on these crappy products. Their sales pages are completely unbelievable. I just dont understand HOW they make money with the stuff.

    People actually believe their lies! And when someone like myself and other honest developers have products that we worked very hard on, our offers are not even promoted on Clickbank.

    My husband spent 12 months developing an awesome website affiliate software which he personally helps every single member with their site, when we put it on Clickbank we actually thought the marketers were going to step in and try to sell it. No, we only had a few people try to sell it. When there is a great product it gets looked over because of all the spam products!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3193234].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author 247Copywriter
    The other downside to this whole discussion is the harm that is caused to the copywriting community.

    Many professional copywriters have seen just about every product under the sun. A lot of which is very good quality, some not so much and quite a bit of it... absolute crap.

    A number of copywriters, myself included, flat out refuse to take on projects where the product owner instructs us to lie on their behalf about what the product is or what it can do. One has to draw a line somewhere.

    A product tutorial, push button system which claims to be some super duper system for magically turning you into an instant millionaire, when it is nothing more than an article submitter or some other bollocks, is not the kind of thing which is welcome in my copywriting business.

    I will not be persuaded by any sum of money to sell fake products to an unsuspecting target audience knowing full well that the 'product' isn't what it portrays itself to be.

    It would be like selling the perfect slug killer to gardeners... Painting the product up with smooth snake oil men's words saying that this is the perfect solution which will solve every gardeners pain forever and here's the clincher...

    Sending off two blocks of wood marked Block A and Block B. Place slug on Block A and whack hard with Block B. Just $99. Problem solved.

    Sure, it's a very effective slug killer but to position it in the marketplace as the latest most sophisticated slug killer on the market would be patently wrong under marketing and advertising law.

    It all comes back to advertising and how one markets these sh*t products. Making them out to be something they are not is obviously wrong and misleads the buying public.

    It's better to be honest even if that doesn't line one's pocket with massive amounts of cash.

    Some of us copywriters do have our standards.

    Just this week I fired a client for sending me through his product which was the most awful wanton crap possible. Two in every three sentences didn't make any sense at all in the tutorial. And yet I was being asked to dress it up to make it into something which it wasn't.

    Very quickly the client and I disagreed with how it should be marketed. My advice was to go back to the drawing board and start this product over again from scratch. The client refused stating that he had already put so much time into this that he needed to get some money back immediately on it, for the time put into it.

    My reply to this was to be more conscientious about providing high quality information right from the start - which ultimately would give the buying public real value for money.

    No, he wanted it to be painted up with words to present it as something which it patently was not. Not a good way to go with me. The client was fired immediately.

    Not all copywriters are guilty of false marketing. Many of us, if we detect the slightest bit of BS, we will do the right thing by the buying public. It's the decent thing to do afterall.

    Preying on naive newbies, blatantly conning them into thinking a product is something it's not, is just bang of order and reflects very badly on the rest of the honest Internet marketing community as a whole.
    Signature
    --->----->----->----->-----> MarkAndrews IMCopywriting <-----<-----<-----<-----<---
    http://www.IMCopywriting.com
    Mark@IMCopywriting.com
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3193258].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
      Originally Posted by 247Copywriter View Post

      It would be like selling the perfect slug killer to gardeners... Painting the product up with smooth snake oil men's words saying that this is the perfect solution which will solve every gardeners pain forever and here's the clincher...

      Sending off two blocks of wood marked Block A and Block B. Place slug on Block A and whack hard with Block B. Just $99. Problem solved.

      Gee... this is one of the few times when using "annihilate" or "crusher" in the headline would be truthful.

      How do I order?!

      John
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3193355].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by 247Copywriter View Post


      It's better to be honest even if that doesn't line one's pocket with massive amounts of cash.

      Some of us copywriters do have our standards.

      Just this week I fired a client for sending me through his product which was the most awful wanton crap possible. Two in every three sentences didn't make any sense at all in the tutorial. And yet I was being asked to dress it up to make it into something which it wasn't.

      Very quickly the client and I disagreed with how it should be marketed. My advice was to go back to the drawing board and start this product over again from scratch. The client refused stating that he had already put so much time into this that he needed to get some money back immediately on it, for the time put into it.

      My reply to this was to be more conscientious about providing high quality information right from the start - which ultimately would give the buying public real value for money.

      No, he wanted it to be painted up with words to present it as something which it patently was not. Not a good way to go with me. The client was fired immediately.

      Not all copywriters are guilty of false marketing. Many of us, if we detect the slightest bit of BS, we will do the right thing by the buying public. It's the decent thing to do afterall.

      Preying on naive newbies, blatantly conning them into thinking a product is something it's not, is just bang of order and reflects very badly on the rest of the honest Internet marketing community as a whole.
      Sally, it's great that you're coming forward and describing the reality that a copywriter faces these days in the IM marketplace.

      More of than not, I imagine you're asked to paint a facade on what is nothing more than either rehashed crap or some mundane piece of software that does not do anything close to what you're being asked to promise/portray in your copy.

      I have no doubt that their primary goal is just to market the product in such a manner that lets them receive the maximum number of sales possible, with the product quality and integrity just being an afterthought.

      Your description of your client's product above sounds like it was nothing more than some hastily cobbled together PLR that was completely outsourced (i.e. rewritten) - it shocks me even to this day when I think about how some marketers have lost all their integrity and seem to focus 99% of their efforts on marketing, and don't even seem to care about the product that they're peddling to the public.

      You know that something's wrong when the expenses are so lopsided, i.e. the copywriting costs many multiples of the product development costs. I believe it's gotten even worse now that marketers have discoveed outsourcing, and many probably think that they can just quickly draw up a quick outline for a product and farm it out completely to some outsourcer who doesn't have the skill and experience to transform that into a product that delivers actual value to the target market.

      Paul
      Signature
      >>> Features Jason Fladlien, John S. Rhodes, Justin Brooke, Sean I. Mitchell, Reed Floren and Brad Gosse! <<<
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3193564].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author contactscape
    Well said Eric

    Very well said. I'd like to think I'm one of those few who "walk the talk", and sadly, my progress over time has suffered an insane amount of sceptic rebuttal due to these scam-artists pounding our industry.

    Very very true. Spoken from the heart, loved every word of it!

    Rock on!

    Cheers,
    Ange

    Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

    Dear anyone-who-cares-about-the-Internet-Marketing-marketplace,

    (Just in case you don't realize this yet)

    I'm not here to lecture anyone or tell anyone what they
    should or should not do with their time, energy and resources,
    but for anyone who cares, I've got something to say.

    I've seen countless crap offers flood our market this past
    year, full of hype, fake screen shots, vague as heck salesletters
    (blind copy), outrageous claims and big bold lies. You've seen
    them, it's been stated already, others have complained, etc

    Is it risky for me to state my opinion?? More than you will
    ever know!

    But you know what? I really don't care. You don't see me
    ever promoting lies like that. Sure, I'm not perfect by any
    stretch, but I'm nowhere close to being a bold-faced liar
    like we are seeing flooding our marketplace.

    It's ruining the market and many big marketers are looking
    to NOT share their knowledge anymore because of it. I've
    learned some amazing insights from some of these big marketers
    I'm talking about and it's a damn shame they are quietly
    leaving because they want no part of the mess that this
    market is becoming.

    Meanwhile, there are plenty of legitimate and successful
    marketers who walk-the-talk out there as well. I cannot
    speak for them, but I can tell you many of the one's I talk
    to are getting pretty sick of those scam-offers.

    But, there's a sad part to this entire thing.

    The sad thing is, most of the market is grabbing those
    crap offers and then refunding to the tune of 50-60% or
    higher!

    A. That's crazy refund percentages and borders on fraud IMO

    B. Why in the world are people buying-this-stuff?

    C. They don't care if the refund rates are that high, they
    still are making fortunes.


    If a launch does 1 million and has a 60% refund rate, they
    still have a big new list and still earn 400k (not too shabby)

    So, they hype up a salesletter/video, keep it vague, get high
    EPC's for JVers (at first) and all looks great. But then,
    the refunds hit and the REAL conversions are just an illusion
    for the JVers.

    Because it's so vague (blind copy), people buy on sizzle alone
    thinking "if it sucks, I'll just get a refund. I'll buy just
    to see what this is, just in case"

    And that's the entire model.

    Lots' of up-sells, and tons of exit pops, promises for future
    delivery (to prevent refunds by having customers looking
    forward to the real juice that's to come, but never does)

    Sure, there's blind copy and always has been, but the real
    problem here is the value! There is none. Plus, the lies.
    Fake screen shots and outright deception.

    Look, I could easily go-with-the-flow if I wanted to and
    also provide such BS offers. I'm a professional copywriter
    and doing that is easy as can be (ask any copywriter). I could
    hype up something and sell the snot out of it and make all
    my JV friends big-bucks producing such copy.

    But I wont.

    Sorry.

    I have to say, this has been eating at me for a long time,
    and I'm not alone. Most don't want to damage themselves by
    saying anything and getting attacked themselves in the
    process (easy target when a marketer is complaining about
    others marketing strategies... one can easily say, 'what
    about you, what about that time you...')

    But I have faith that there's an army of people in this
    market who feel and think exactly like I do about this. I'm
    not just talking about "buyers" or "newbies" in this
    market, but other marketers who "teach" as well.

    Heck, maybe I'm wrong and maybe I'm just out here on an
    island finally getting tired of seeing crap-BS offers. Maybe
    I should just zip it and let everything be as is. Who
    am I to judge or say anything?

    Sure, there are plenty of people who are in other niches
    and could care less. But, there are still plenty in
    this niche in some form or fashion who really are flat
    sick of it. There's got to be.

    Lastly, IMO, I'd predict if this continues (the scam offers),
    then this market will be severely damaged and anyone
    who actually does "walk the talk" and the legitimate
    marketers will all start fading away into other things.

    In setting my goals and dreams for 2011 and beyond,
    I thought long and hard on if I should focus completely
    on other niche markets and businesses and leave this
    market... or continue on.

    Preferably, there's nothing I enjoy talking about more
    in my life than Internet Marketing, and it can be an
    exciting, fun and lucrative market to be in, indeed.

    But, I'm afraid if the market is going to be ruined
    by such bold-lies and deception as it's becoming, it
    just cant function like that. I don't think it can
    be sustained for long like that. Eventually, the market
    will "shake-out" and the critical mass will avoid
    those scam-type-offers like crazy.

    Ok, so I obviously have put myself in a great position
    to get flamed by those who see an opportunity to attack
    me (there's plenty here)... and am up on the punching
    block with this post. So be it. I feel better getting
    this off my chest already anyway.

    My advice is to learn from those who walk the talk,
    not the fake Internet names who are pounding the
    market with crap offers and fake screen-shots.

    Learn to drive traffic, build a list, brand yourself,
    create value and distribute value to your market. Create
    real businesses and passive income. Treat people well.

    Obviously my little post here will do little good,
    but for the few who read it, it could help. If anything,
    I feel better for saying it on the record.

    As far as those JVers out there who are promoting this
    stuff, soon you'll have to make a choice... either
    be with us, or be with the crap-offer-CB-group. I made
    my choice and have said it publicly.

    Thanks!

    Eric Louviere
    Signature
    Angelina Troy's SEPCON Project
    Powerful Internet Marketing Tactics, Strategies & More..
    (enjoying 70,000+ of the Craziest Fans in the IM world! )

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3193456].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author GlenH
    Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

    Dear anyone-who-cares-about-the-Internet-Marketing-marketplace,

    (Just in case you don't realize this yet)

    I'm not here to lecture anyone or tell anyone what they
    should or should not do with their time, energy and resources,
    but for anyone who cares, I've got something to say.

    I've seen countless crap offers flood our market this past
    year, full of hype, fake screen shots, vague as heck salesletters
    (blind copy), outrageous claims and big bold lies. You've seen
    them, it's been stated already, others have complained, etc

    Is it risky for me to state my opinion?? More than you will
    ever know!

    But you know what? I really don't care. You don't see me
    ever promoting lies like that. Sure, I'm not perfect by any
    stretch, but I'm nowhere close to being a bold-faced liar
    like we are seeing flooding our marketplace.

    It's ruining the market and many big marketers are looking
    to NOT share their knowledge anymore because of it. I've
    learned some amazing insights from some of these big marketers
    I'm talking about and it's a damn shame they are quietly
    leaving because they want no part of the mess that this
    market is becoming.

    Meanwhile, there are plenty of legitimate and successful
    marketers who walk-the-talk out there as well. I cannot
    speak for them, but I can tell you many of the one's I talk
    to are getting pretty sick of those scam-offers.

    But, there's a sad part to this entire thing.

    The sad thing is, most of the market is grabbing those
    crap offers and then refunding to the tune of 50-60% or
    higher!

    A. That's crazy refund percentages and borders on fraud IMO

    B. Why in the world are people buying-this-stuff?

    C. They don't care if the refund rates are that high, they
    still are making fortunes.


    If a launch does 1 million and has a 60% refund rate, they
    still have a big new list and still earn 400k (not too shabby)

    So, they hype up a salesletter/video, keep it vague, get high
    EPC's for JVers (at first) and all looks great. But then,
    the refunds hit and the REAL conversions are just an illusion
    for the JVers.

    Because it's so vague (blind copy), people buy on sizzle alone
    thinking "if it sucks, I'll just get a refund. I'll buy just
    to see what this is, just in case"

    And that's the entire model.

    Lots' of up-sells, and tons of exit pops, promises for future
    delivery (to prevent refunds by having customers looking
    forward to the real juice that's to come, but never does)

    Sure, there's blind copy and always has been, but the real
    problem here is the value! There is none. Plus, the lies.
    Fake screen shots and outright deception.

    Look, I could easily go-with-the-flow if I wanted to and
    also provide such BS offers. I'm a professional copywriter
    and doing that is easy as can be (ask any copywriter). I could
    hype up something and sell the snot out of it and make all
    my JV friends big-bucks producing such copy.

    But I wont.

    Sorry.

    I have to say, this has been eating at me for a long time,
    and I'm not alone. Most don't want to damage themselves by
    saying anything and getting attacked themselves in the
    process (easy target when a marketer is complaining about
    others marketing strategies... one can easily say, 'what
    about you, what about that time you...')

    But I have faith that there's an army of people in this
    market who feel and think exactly like I do about this. I'm
    not just talking about "buyers" or "newbies" in this
    market, but other marketers who "teach" as well.

    Heck, maybe I'm wrong and maybe I'm just out here on an
    island finally getting tired of seeing crap-BS offers. Maybe
    I should just zip it and let everything be as is. Who
    am I to judge or say anything?

    Sure, there are plenty of people who are in other niches
    and could care less. But, there are still plenty in
    this niche in some form or fashion who really are flat
    sick of it. There's got to be.

    Lastly, IMO, I'd predict if this continues (the scam offers),
    then this market will be severely damaged and anyone
    who actually does "walk the talk" and the legitimate
    marketers will all start fading away into other things.

    In setting my goals and dreams for 2011 and beyond,
    I thought long and hard on if I should focus completely
    on other niche markets and businesses and leave this
    market... or continue on.

    Preferably, there's nothing I enjoy talking about more
    in my life than Internet Marketing, and it can be an
    exciting, fun and lucrative market to be in, indeed.

    But, I'm afraid if the market is going to be ruined
    by such bold-lies and deception as it's becoming, it
    just cant function like that. I don't think it can
    be sustained for long like that. Eventually, the market
    will "shake-out" and the critical mass will avoid
    those scam-type-offers like crazy.

    Ok, so I obviously have put myself in a great position
    to get flamed by those who see an opportunity to attack
    me (there's plenty here)... and am up on the punching
    block with this post. So be it. I feel better getting
    this off my chest already anyway.

    My advice is to learn from those who walk the talk,
    not the fake Internet names who are pounding the
    market with crap offers and fake screen-shots.

    Learn to drive traffic, build a list, brand yourself,
    create value and distribute value to your market. Create
    real businesses and passive income. Treat people well.

    Obviously my little post here will do little good,
    but for the few who read it, it could help. If anything,
    I feel better for saying it on the record.

    As far as those JVers out there who are promoting this
    stuff, soon you'll have to make a choice... either
    be with us, or be with the crap-offer-CB-group. I made
    my choice and have said it publicly.

    Thanks!

    Eric Louviere
    Hey Eric,

    You are not alone by any stretch..

    Everything you've said here is a compilation of all my thoughts exactly

    I have had my say about this pitiful state of affairs as often as I can all over this forum.

    It gets it off my chest, but I don't see anything that's going to stop what's been happening, and God only knows what we're in for in 2011 on this front.

    As product developer of quality software products for the IM market, these 'cowboys' with their get rich fakery, their blatant misrepresentation and ...lies, have helped to make it so much more difficult for all the legitimate and reputable owners of quality legitimate products and businesses, to the point now where every prospect ( newbies and experienced alike ) are so much more skeptical about everything .

    Who knows where it will end.

    Clickbank...are you guys reading this?

    --Glen
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3193693].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by GlenH View Post

      Hey Eric,

      You are not alone by any stretch..

      Everything you've said here is a compilation of all my thoughts exactly

      I have had my say about this pitiful state of affairs as often as I can all over this forum.

      It gets it off my chest, but I don’t see anything that’s going to stop what’s been happening, and God only knows what we’re in for in 2011 on this front.

      As product developer of quality software products for the IM market, these ‘cowboys’ with their get rich fakery, their blatant misrepresentation and ...lies, have helped to make it so much more difficult for all the legitimate and reputable owners of quality legitimate products and businesses, to the point now where every prospect ( newbies and experienced alike ) are so much more skeptical about everything .

      Who knows where it will end.

      Clickbank...are you guys reading this?

      --Glen
      Glen, I'm with you on this. About the only people who have the clout to summarily put a stop to this crap-fest is Clickbank, in my opinion. Every single one of these "pushbutton" 1-2-3 type products has been released on Clickbank, so all it'd take is for them to vet product releases more carefully.

      If this crazy trend of 50+% refund rates continues, I think they'll have no choice but to eventually bring this runaway train to a screeching halt.

      I'm sure at some point they'll start caring about their reputation being dragged through the mud, and the possible impact this could have on their bottom line.

      Paul
      Signature
      >>> Features Jason Fladlien, John S. Rhodes, Justin Brooke, Sean I. Mitchell, Reed Floren and Brad Gosse! <<<
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3194039].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
        Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

        Glen, I'm with you on this. About the only people who have the clout to summarily put a stop to this crap-fest is Clickbank, in my opinion. Every single one of these "pushbutton" 1-2-3 type products has been released on Clickbank, so all it'd take is for them to vet product releases more carefully.

        If this crazy trend of 50+% refund rates continues, I think they'll have no choice but to eventually bring this runaway train to a screeching halt.

        I'm sure at some point they'll start caring about their reputation being dragged through the mud, and the possible impact this could have on their bottom line.

        Paul
        If not the FTC might do it for them.
        Signature
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3194115].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

          If not the FTC might do it for them.
          Very true, Alan. It seems like they're primarily complaint-driven, so I guess how quickly they take action (or whether they even do something about it) is primarily going to depend on how many people raise a huge ruckus and stink over this crap-fest.
          Signature
          >>> Features Jason Fladlien, John S. Rhodes, Justin Brooke, Sean I. Mitchell, Reed Floren and Brad Gosse! <<<
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3194130].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author superstuff
      I have had the privilege? to have dinner with several million dollar copywriters that have written sales copy for quite a few of the big name gurus and some not so big name marketers in the IM arena.

      These are guys that have written the long page sales letters of some of the biggest IM launches and quite a few of the successful CB ads out there for big clients. Some of which have been mentioned and posted in this very thread oddly enough.

      They laughed when they said that writing for IM clients was their easiest work. One of them said something that really resonated with me. "9 out of 10 times, the sales copy IS the product."

      The sales letter is the product period.

      He added that some Marketers would spend 10-20 times or more on the sales copy than product creation itself. And get this, a lot of times the sales letter will be completed before the product is even started. He said that is why you have products that include membership sites that resemble ghost towns, buggy software that customers in effect pay to beta test (how nice of them) or sometimes doesn't even work. Incomplete modules, even half finished products. Content that is not actionable or is designed to be dripped to customers over weeks/months so that return times will have long since been passed and many months of membership fees are sure to be collected.

      They went on to say that some of these marketers weren't at all concerned, because the IM niche market has short attention spans, give up on whatever method/technique/course/blueprint/system/formula that initially excited them. Not because they're lazy. These products are designed from the ground up to have missing pieces that you can certainly fill in with "coaching" or membership. All for more money of course. They also have a history of buying many products, so they'll just move on to the next one anyway. Churn and burn. There is no peer review in the IM industry only payola under the guise of JVs "recommendations" to their respective lists. You don't have to look very far to see this in action day after day, offer after offer. Just look at the headlines.....

      He finished with, "More than any other market, They Want To Believe the Sales Copy So Badly." Especially in this economy.

      So it is and will continue to be unless the customers prove otherwise. Because a lot of not all gurus just can't help themselves. Its too easy.

      Guy/Gals this is The Model that is way too often followed and repeated over and over and over and over. Another favorite of far too many IM gurus is when their product/service fails or doesn't measure up, or sometimes even questioned is to then attack the customers mindset. Classic deflection and shifting of the responsibility and the spotlight from them to the customer. I have witnessed this online and in person many times. Pure BS. This is only the tip of the iceberg. What happens at some of IM the conferences/seminars/workshops, or "the circuit" well, believe me. Its ugly. But I digress.

      Bottom line Stand Behind Your Products and Services AND Demand better.

      Don't accept mediocrity whether you're a product purchaser or creator yourself.

      Next time you purchase something print out the sales copy for reference while you're giving your new system/formula/secret/method/technique/crusher/dominator/product X on steroids (these names are a hoot) a spin and see how it measures up over time. Trust me, it can be downright embarrassing sometimes.

      If you're creating a product you may want to do the same and ask yourself if you can live with it.

      Listen, I love value for value. Looooooooooove it. I have no problem paying for it again and again and will continue to do so. Win-Win is a beautiful thing.

      However, when there is none or very little respective to the sales copy you shouldn't put up with it for 2 seconds.

      Will anything change?

      The good news is it doesn't have to be this way.

      It will change if you........

      Demand value for value EVERY time and put value for value in the products/service you produce and sell. Stand behind your product/service. EVERY time. Simple and you can't miss that way.

      Or it can go back to business as usual. Your choice(s).
      Hopefully we won't be having this same discussion again at the beginning of next year.

      Good discussion btw. Thanks Eric for breaking the silence.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3194441].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Jeremy,
        Paul, can you or another mod expose this clown?
        I'm not naming him. If he crosses the lines, the penalty will hit both accounts. Until then, I'm letting this one go.

        Marketer X,
        I have every right to keep my privacy on a forum or social site.
        Don't push it. You don't have any "right" to two accounts. We allow that occasionally for legit purposes (usually humorous ones that everyone knows about), but it's a privilege.
        Everyone in this thread talking trash about people we all know by name is breaking the #1 rule of this site.
        You don't seem to understand the purpose of Rule #1. I've explained it before, and I suspect you've seen those explanations.

        It is NOT meant to prevent open discussion among people over general issues, nor is it meant to turn the place into a kindergarten.


        Paul
        Signature
        .
        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3194735].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author TZ
    Always been that way, and sometimes it's just luck of draw finding the information required to actually make a good living online.

    I've bought many, many, many ebooks, software packages, tools, etc. etc., and almost ALL of them had SOME redeeming value. That is why I have never asked for a refund on a product. It's the price of an education.

    If ANY offer claims to make you bags of cash fast............RUN FOR THE HILLS!!1
    Signature

    $php_coding = "consistent cash";

    echo ("Give me" . " " . $php_coding . "!");

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3194127].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
    Originally Posted by Kezz View Post

    You can be a capitalist, be out to make piles of money, and do it all in a way that is totally above board. You don't need to scam people, steal from them or hurt them to get ahead.
    Well said Kezz.

    He who would be rich in a day will be hanged in a year.
    That quote is from Leonardo Da Vinci, which illustrates the point that the concepts discussed in this thread are nothing new.

    My feeling is that the major problem with this is that, from both the vendor and cutomer perspective, is the motivation is making money, rather than providing solutions.

    Lat's look at a hypothetical example of a website creation tool.

    If it is marketed as a solution to "help even technotards easily create their own professional looking website(s)", and bought on that basis, there is not much wrong with it, as long as it actually performs that function.

    If it is sold (and bought) on the basis of "making bazillions of dollars by building websites", then there are always going to be problems at both ends of the transaction.

    If you are selling products, then offer solutions to a problem that the marketplace has. You have a lot better chance of staying in business for a long time.

    If you are a buyer, only buy from those that provide a solution to the problem(s) you are having. That way you will avoid a lot of disappointment

    Never let promises of big (or even small) amounts of money be your motivator.
    Signature
    Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon.
    It'll just knock over all the pieces, poop on the board, and strut about like it's won anyway.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3194381].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Gary_The_Ace
    Hey all,

    Alright, I'll chime in here...

    I'm working on a product that I know is awesome, that I know can help people, and that I am certain will create the first profitable marketing campaigns for hundreds, if not thousands of people... and the biggest problem I have is... how do I get it into the hands of the customers who actually need it?

    If I promote the product as "requiring work", it's not going to sell nearly as well as a product that's sold as a "fast money solution". It just doesn't, there's no disputing that fact over larger volumes of traffic. If you claim otherwise, you either don't know what you're talking about, or you're living in fantasyland... period.

    As a marketer, I'm stuck... yes, stuck.

    I can either sell 500 copies of a product through being "hype-free", or sell 5,000 copies of the product if I'm willing to market aggressively. ( and before you jump on me, I said market aggressively, I didn't say lie, and I didn't say I'd be dishonest in any way )

    There are only so many experienced marketers, but there are always hundreds times more "newbie" marketers in the potential client pool, and newbies buy "fast money" type products, they don't buy "article spinners", or "autobloggers" ... which is why the products are being sold they way that they are.

    Clients don't buy on need, they buy on want... I'd hope everyone here knows this. I know this won't be popular to say, but I think you're all jumping up, and looking to start a fight in a battle you're destined to lose.

    The Warrior Forum is NOT the marketplace, it's a TINY segment of the more advanced portion of the marketplace, and it's also the more vocal part of the marketplace as well. In short, what you see here does not, in any way, reflect the overall feelings of the "market" as a whole, because this isn't the market... it's a forum made up of a very small part of a market that's larger than most of you realize.

    There are also no "Warriors", not anymore. This is a free forum, made up of random people who want to discuss marketing... meaning, you're past the "newbie" stage at least to some degree, and aren't the target of 99% of these offers. You're complaining about offers that aren't aimed at you.. you may think they are, but they're not.

    Another thing... these offers are selling like nothing I've ever seen. I tend not to get involved in the promotion unless I know the seller, have seen the product, and go CAREFULLY through the sales copy to determine if it's marketing, or lying. I've already gone over this in another thread, so I won't beat it to death here... but I'd strongly suggest a lot of you really go through the copy before you label someone a liar, or unethical. There are a lot of cases where the WF is calling BS on someone, when there is no basis to do so.

    I could go on, and on, and on with this post... but here's something else to consider in this discussion.

    The overwhelming majority of the people I've met in this space ended up getting involved in this space because they saw an offer for some type of "biz opp", or "fast money" opportunity. They learned a few basics, then moved on, and became more advanced... and, like it or not, these offers are likely very similar to the offers that you originally bought, that lead you to this very place today.

    No, not directly... but if you hadn't found your first offer, and if it wasn't sold as aggressively as many of these same offers you're complaining about... you probably wouldn't be here today.

    Finally...

    As for CB, and refund rates, their own staff told a group of us, in their own building, that the AVERAGE refund rate for a product in the "make money" field is over 22%... that's right, over 22% ... and before you get to thinking that number is high because of all the crap being sold... this number was BEFORE the latest round of automatic magic money making blind software offers. 22% is average for a CB product in the "make money" space...

    I'm not sure why I'm bothering posting here... it's pointless really. This forum isn't the "market", and while you may not like what's going on, there isn't much you can do to stop it.

    -Gary
    Signature
    If you have an automated webinar in the IM, biz opp, or make money space, and if it already converts to cold, and/or paid traffic... I want to send free traffic, and free leads to you registration page, every single day, until it stops converting. CLICK HERE FOR DETAILS NOW.

    P.P.S. Viral Marketing Doesn't Work ... Tell Everyone You Know! ;)
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3195010].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author drmani
    Chris Rempel's latest blog post, "The Shaving Conspiracy"
    has some interesting insight that pertains to this discussion.
    Take a look.

    All success
    Dr.Mani
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3195696].message }}
  • {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3198980].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author billmcintosh
    I had an interesting conversation with Eric last night about this & thought I'd drop by here and leave my 2 cents...

    One part of this problem is that many of these offers that people think are converting so well and making so much money for everyone are just an illusion.

    Perhaps these offers get double the conversion rates on the initial promotion, but in the end after all the refunds come in... what is the TRUE conversion rate & earnings per click? Probably not much better than offers that clearly lay out what the buyer will get.

    The problem then becomes in the heat of the moment everyone thinks the latest hype is converting better and they ignore "legit" offers. Then everyone misses out on some quality products & instead have their inbox hammered with the latest me too ClickBank launch.

    I think things are about to get very interesting to people launching and promoting these offers. I'm seeing a lot of talk on Facebook right now about I.M. Clickbank affiliates & merchants losing their Aweber accounts. This might just be the beginning of the next big "slap" as the backflash starts to come in.

    By the way, I'll be talking about this live tonight... so if you've got an opinion one way or the other on this I'd love to hear from you about it.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3207505].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author KEY
      thanks for chiming in on this Bill (M)

      ...Then everyone misses out on some quality products...
      your thinking is the same as mine. people get gun-shy
      and no longer feel confident if they are going to get
      what a sales-page is promising. I do not care for the
      environment that this trend is creating.

      I am floored when successful marketers basically say
      that they have no choice but to go the smoke and mirrors
      route because it is where the market 'wants' us to go???

      the question for me? how do those of us that wish to
      be straight up and say "this is what product x does for
      you, complete directions included...you just provide the
      sweat equity"


      how do we compete with the auto-success products that
      are ultimately the source of the 'flood'?

      KEY (eric)
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3207715].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Originally Posted by billmcintosh View Post

      I think things are about to get very interesting to people launching and promoting these offers. I'm seeing a lot of talk on Facebook right now about I.M. Clickbank affiliates & merchants losing their Aweber accounts. This might just be the beginning of the next big "slap" as the backflash starts to come in.
      I agree with gist of your post but don't believe and spread the rumors on Facebook... read Tom Kulzer's post about that rumor...

      http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...-accounts.html
      Signature
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3207800].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author pavionjsl
    I think at some point with web ID's being a possibility and the FTC getting more into play there will be more accountability coming to offers. At some point you are misleading people to make money. Theft by deception will come into play of some kind. HYpe, crap that is not as represented properly, business tactics that are just wrong (multiple more misleading upsells) will be in the spotlight soon.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3207859].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author guardinator
    A lot of these guys are out of the U.S. and away from any of the new FTC regulations here in the States. They can basically say what they want.

    "push this button and get a tsunami of traffic. Then when you buy my product that I don't describe in my sales copy, I'll hit you with 9 upsells and make you feel bad about your original purchase."
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3208323].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Diver's
    What do you think if we have something like BBB - Better Business Beareau, Or approved by certain Marketing Communities or certain reference number with logo as to proof legitimacy of the said business.

    Some kind of an acknoledgement to the Seller. It can be a guide for newbie before buying. Again this will not solve it 100% - It all come back to 'self-integrity' and honesty
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3208518].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author 1960Texan
    Normally I don't make a post this long but after reading through this entire thread I'm feeling a little entitled

    Aside from feeling badly for the people that get scammed, I LOVE IT when the competition sucks!

    Before I got into Internet marketing I was a working musician and also owned several brick and mortar businesses, both service businesses and retail...my competitors in the service businesses were especially talented at putting money in my bank account because they set the bar so low that all I had to do was deliver on my promise to the customer and they were blown away. In fact, I over-delivered, but hell...truth be told I could have under-delivered and still beat the competition by a wide, wide margin.

    As a musician I wasn't the best guitar player and didn't have the prettiest voice but I showed up to my gigs on time and always tried to put on a good show. As a result I got a lot further in my career than many of my more talented peers.

    I have the same attitude in IM. "Good enough" isn't good enough if I'm putting my name on it, and I know from personal experience that there are many marketers right here on the Warrior Forum that have the same attitude.

    While I haven't been scammed in a while I wasn't born with street smarts...I earned them by being naive and gullible enough to fall for the occasional scam, or by buying a lame product.

    We aren't going to fix this anytime soon, because there are a lot of people starting out as gullible as I once was, being preyed on by the same type that used to get my hard-earned bucks.

    Will
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3209070].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author 0hyesican
    Eric:

    Thanks for a great post. As a relative newbie, it is sometimes difficult for me to tell who is delivering the goods and who is delivering crap. And what the crap and hype style has done to the marketplace is to make it so that creators of legit products apparently feel they have to overhype if they want to sell anything at all.

    I'm really grateful for WF. I look up every offer I get in my email here to see if it has been discussed yet, and most of them have. I have bought only a couple of the more popular products, and have refunded them.

    I have pretty much gotten all of the info that I have found really helpful from WSO's for a lot less money. I have become so disgusted with CB products that I am probably going to go with physical products and stay away from the IM niche altogether.

    Of course, with Amazon, that means you have to wait 60 days before you see a return on your investment, but it does appear that it is possible to make a decent living there.

    But I digress. Maybe the best thing for honest IM'ers to do is to wait out this era of unmitigated BS and wait for it to implode. Maybe the hype era will thin the herd a little. It's just that it would be nice for ethical product creators to not feel they have to overhype just to break even in the marketplace.

    And it would be a lot nicer for consumers.
    Signature

    Premium reviews, blog posts, and press releases. PM me for more details.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3247783].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author cpacall2
    Eric thanks opening this thread and a lot of experts commenting. Great!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3270890].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author MWGrubb58
    Yes, and amen.

    Can't tell you how many times I've bought a product and found it to be absolute rubbish.

    Many of the so-called gurus have faded in my eyes because I have been burned too many times... (I am a sucker for good copy).

    You get to a point where you know what the product is going to be before you buy... and you realize what the price points are going to be... before they hit...

    Which leads me back to what I've done for years... sell to the offline market, using offline methods that work... THEN... sell to my BUYERS... over and over again.

    I've sold products for years offline... made my share of mistakes...

    But now, it is a matter of shooting straight, promising little and over delivering, building trust... and keeping it.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3271178].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author homeworker13
    I am new to Internet Marketing, and even though I don't know much and am still educating myself, I will take my chances and tell you experienced lot what i think.

    So far, i have not purchased a single software/product to get started. I am just still gathering information, and as i said before, learning. Keeping my eyes open, in a manner of speaking. testing the waters.

    I do notice that there are 1/2/3/6/7 or whatever number u like "click-softwares" about that come with very misleading sales pages. Then i come here and read reviews of people who have tested or purchased the software, and it turns out that it is mostly junk.

    However, on the bright side, I have learned about some reliable programs too.

    What i have inferred in the one month of my foray into Internet Marketing is that is not very different from the real world. Similar to the real world, the IM world is abound with scammers and honest people alike, but the former seems to be larger in number.

    It is best to use your better judgement and tread carefully. I agree here with what Mr. Louviere says:

    "Learn to drive traffic, build a list, brand yourself,
    create value and distribute value to your market. Create
    real businesses and passive income. Treat people well."

    Give it time and effort. Keep learning. No good thing in this world comes easy. So keep working at it.

    That's my two cents' worth.
    Signature

    Dola B.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[4980356].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author anton343
    Call me a cynic but I am amazed at the number of product owners that are now jumping on the bandwagon of "Ethical Marketing"

    The sales pages used to be full of fake screenshots etc. and now they are shouting from the rooftops about how we have all been robbed and they are bringing the ethics back into marketing.

    I am not saying this is true of people posting in this thread but is just something in general I have noticed.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[4981020].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author cofton25
      I'm a bit late on this thread but would have to agree somewhat, this is because all clever (or think they are clever) marketers will always spin a positive out of a negative..... plus using the word 'ethical' somehow makes someone honest in many people's mind, therefore this can = trust which in turn = sales.

      And of course we must also consider that in probably 95% of cases the word 'ethical' in its true meaning does not relate to Internet Marketing lol

      Not being scammed by the bad guys comes with experience, we somehow smell BS sales copy a mile off.... but for newbies it's a little more difficult. This is a shame but it's how it is.

      The good thing is, eventually we all learn to smell the BS and don't purchase the bad ones, hopefully the bad guys fall away as they no longer get the sales.

      I am hopeful that maybe one day we will be left with more good guys than bad guys. The only problem is that wherever there is money to be made(in any arena) does attract more bad guys.

      Let's hope we pour more good guys in the funnel and most of the bad guys pour out the other end.


      Originally Posted by anton343 View Post

      Call me a cynic but I am amazed at the number of product owners that are now jumping on the bandwagon of "Ethical Marketing"

      The sales pages used to be full of fake screenshots etc. and now they are shouting from the rooftops about how we have all been robbed and they are bringing the ethics back into marketing.

      I am not saying this is true of people posting in this thread but is just something in general I have noticed.
      Signature

      Win some or learn some.... everyday

      Life is wonderful but can be short..... so be happy

      Health, Happiness and Wealth... and in that order

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6194911].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Mohammed Hammad2
    WOW! Excellent post Eric.

    Every word you said was nothing but TRUTH!

    I am choosing to be on your side and I publicly say that now (Although I am not well-known person :rolleyes: ) but still, I chose my side.

    I hope the whole market will wake up from these false dreams.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6195018].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author myob
      There's a sucker born every minute.

      ~ P. T. Barnum
      Signature
      “If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants.” – Isaac Newton
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6195449].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    The U.S. national debt when this conversation died the first time: $14,069,644,409,633.74
    The U.S. national debt when the thread was resurrected today: $15,682,809,176,245.57

    Just for some perspective and to scare the crap out of us Americans .
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6195509].message }}

Trending Topics