Where have all the "Big Picture" thinkers gone???

95 replies
Hi folks,

It's been a long time since I posted here on the WarriorForum but since it's 2011 and a brand new year, I thought I'd take a peek in and see how y'all are doing. But lemme tell ya, after spending a couple days getting a feel for the place again, I'm somewhat concerned with the mindset I see has developed around here since my absence.

It used to be that we had a good spread of thinkers around here, back in the day. We had frequent posts that would challenge the mind. We had people posting really deep stuff that delved into the subconscious of the herd mind - real "light bulb" stuff.

But now it seems tons of people are whining about details, shouting the word SCAMMER left and right, jumping down each other's throats for the silliest reasons.

Is it that mediocrity has taken over and the big thinkers have been run-off or is this just the way it is around here now?

How about some good meaty stuff again? Anyone up for that sort of thing anymore, or am I in the wrong place?

Paul
#big picture #thinkers
  • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
    I agree with you Paul. The focus of the Warrior Forum used to be on really powerful high leverage stuff. It's where people like Mike Filsaime first learned about marketing.

    These days the focus is on really low leverage activities that are ultimately going to get washed away the moment Google does an update or similar. Hardly anyone is building a business to ship product and I think that's a shame.

    But still, different strokes for different folks and if it's working I'm certainly not one to judge.

    It is working right?
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul_Short
      Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

      But still, different strokes for different folks and if it's working I'm certainly not one to judge.

      It is working right?
      Is it working?

      I get the distinct impression that it's not working for most.

      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Pragun
    You're in the right place mate.

    Unfortunate circumstances perhaps. As far as I know, most people have started looking at the net as a quick shot way of making some cash. The "Big Picture" thinker that you're talking off have been doing their thing while everyone was out on the gold rush.

    A few more knocks, like this very thread, might just tempt a few of them back.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul_Short
      Originally Posted by Pragun View Post

      You're in the right place mate.

      Unfortunate circumstances perhaps. As far as I know, most people have started looking at the net as a quick shot way of making some cash. The "Big Picture" thinker that you're talking off have been doing their thing while everyone was out on the gold rush.

      A few more knocks, like this very thread, might just tempt a few of them back.
      Over the years I've watched a lot of trends develop in the IM arena and patterns always seemed to follow the same routine. You had your pyramid-style thing happening where a few people at the top fed off the people at the lower levels. That's pretty much how it's always been and in order for this type of market to survive, it kind of has to be like that, but as far as the spreading of knowledge on the public forums, it's like there's no top on the pyramid anymore.

      Methinks it's about time to dust off the old capstone, polish it up a bit and climb up there to put it on again.

      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        I'm not saying your assessment is right or wrong, but for the most part, I
        agree with it.

        There are the occasional great threads posted but you really have to dig for
        them.

        Having said that, I spend most of my time looking for threads where people
        have questions and need help and try to answer them. At least that way I
        feel like I'm contributing in some small way.

        Without stirring up a hornet's nest, one reason why you probably don't see
        a lot of those type of threads is because many "thinking" threads are moved
        to Mind Warriors. The general consensus is that they don't belong in Main
        Discussion.

        Other than that, yes, a lot of the really bright bulbs have either left or
        have decided to stop posting because of all the slack they get from the
        forum trolls. Can't say I blame them.

        Anyway, that's all I'm going to say on the subject, though I'd love to
        say more.

        Just don't think it would be appropriate and will only turn what I hope will
        remain a civilized thread into a troll fest.

        Nice to see you back Paul.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul_Short
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          I'm not saying your assessment is right or wrong, but for the most part, I
          agree with it.

          There are the occasional great threads posted but you really have to dig for
          them.

          Having said that, I spend most of my time looking for threads where people
          have questions and need help and try to answer them. At least that way I
          feel like I'm contributing in some small way.

          Without stirring up a hornet's nest, one reason why you probably don't see
          a lot of those type of threads is because many "thinking" threads are moved
          to Mind Warriors. The general consensus is that they don't belong in Main
          Discussion.

          Other than that, yes, a lot of the really bright bulbs have either left or
          have decided to stop posting because of all the slack they get from the
          forum trolls. Can't say I blame them.

          Anyway, that's all I'm going to say on the subject, though I'd love to
          say more.

          Just don't think it would be appropriate and will only turn what I hope will
          remain a civilized thread into a troll fest.

          Nice to see you back Paul.
          Thanks, Steve.

          Mind warriors, yes of course, I'll have a closer look and put my stuff in the proper category.

          As for the troll fest, yeah, no, I ain't into that either ;-)

          Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Without stirring up a hornet's nest, one reason why you probably don't see
          a lot of those type of threads is because many "thinking" threads are moved
          to Mind Warriors. The general consensus is that they don't belong in Main
          Discussion.
          I may be mistaken, but my understanding is that the Mind Warriors section is concerned primarily with one's own mindset, rather than, for instance, the psychology of buyers. I don't visit that area much, but when I do, I notice it seems to be largely the province of the 'manifest mob' (not that there's anything wrong with that :rolleyes.

          Topics such as Allen's 'Herd Mentality' post (in the War Room), IMO, definitely belong in the main forum as they fit right in with the where we talk about making money brief.


          Frank
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      • Profile picture of the author Pragun
        Originally Posted by Paul_Short View Post

        Over the years I've watched a lot of trends develop in the IM arena and patterns always seemed to follow the same routine. You had your pyramid-style thing happening where a few people at the top fed off the people at the lower levels. That's pretty much how it's always been and in order for this type of market to survive, it kind of has to be like that, but as far as the spreading of knowledge on the public forums, it's like there's no top on the pyramid anymore.

        Methinks it's about time to dust off the old capstone, polish it up a bit and climb up there to put it on again.

        Paul
        The pyramid could use a capstone, aye.
        But then, who's gonna start the trend?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    Originally Posted by Paul_Short View Post


    Is it that mediocrity has taken over and the big thinkers have been run-off or is this just the way it is around here now?
    I don't think it'll ever be the same again.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Yadira Barbosa
    I understand what you saying and got a good point.

    I even create my own collection of great threads of the last 3 years or so, at the beginning I just bookmark it, but since last year I transfer all those URLs to my own spread sheet.

    On the last year I think only add a few more threads to this collection, but I'm for sure if I spend more time digging I will find several golden nuggets here.
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  • Profile picture of the author jborjaperez
    Haven't been here long or active enough to know how it was before, but i'd sure like to meet these big thinkers!! Let's start a thread!

    -j
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  • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
    Originally Posted by revenue27 View Post

    Well There is no such thing like make money online in one night, it's all take time, dedication, focus and honesty
    It's not about making money faster necessarily. It's about doing higher leverage things that have the potential to grow in a way that the kind of stuff that gets talked about here regularly really doesn't.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Paul,

      Nice mugshot
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      Roger Davis

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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Paul,

        Nice mugshot
        Roger...that was bad. I mean really bad. I mean awful bad.

        I'm still groaning from that one.
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        • Profile picture of the author Glenn Leader
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          Roger...that was bad. I mean really bad. I mean awful bad.

          I'm still groaning from that one.
          Groan all you like Steven, that pun was just my cup of tea.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            While we're on the subject of deep thinkers, and this might surprise a lot
            of people, that is something that I am not...at least not anymore.

            As I have gotten older, I tend to try to keep things as simple as possible.

            Oddly, what I have found over the relatively few short years that I've been
            running my own home business is that most things that I need to do in order
            to achieve the results I want are simple.

            I think too many people overcomplicate this process and make it something
            that it is not.

            Figure out what people want, why they want it and give it to them.

            How hard is that?

            Business, all business, is about understanding buyer psychology and
            why they purchase something and not something else.

            Heck, if most Internet marketers would simply take the time to sit down
            and think about why they themselves buy things, they'd probably have
            half this stuff figured out.

            The only truly difficult thing, IMO anyway, about business is coming up
            with an idea that is so interesting that it goes viral just by letting a few
            people know about it.

            Take a look at the YouTube videos with the most views. Most of them
            are truly unique in some way. There is something about them worth
            talking about and spreading. I have a problem with stuff like that because
            my analytical brain seems to get in the way of my creative brain.

            But you don't need to come up with incredibly viral videos and ideas to
            make money in this business. I'm living proof of that.

            Bottom line: You don't need to be a big thinker to come home with a big
            payday.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul_Short
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              While we're on the subject of deep thinkers, and this might surprise a lot
              of people, that is something that I am not...at least not anymore.

              As I have gotten older, I tend to try to keep things as simple as possible.

              Oddly, what I have found over the relatively few short years that I've been
              running my own home business is that most things that I need to do in order
              to achieve the results I want are simple.

              I think too many people overcomplicate this process and make it something
              that it is not.

              Figure out what people want, why they want it and give it to them.

              How hard is that?

              Business, all business, is about understanding buyer psychology and
              why they purchase something and not something else.

              Heck, if most Internet marketers would simply take the time to sit down
              and think about why they themselves buy things, they'd probably have
              half this stuff figured out.

              The only truly difficult thing, IMO anyway, about business is coming up
              with an idea that is so interesting that it goes viral just by letting a few
              people know about it.

              Take a look at the YouTube videos with the most views. Most of them
              are truly unique in some way. There is something about them worth
              talking about and spreading. I have a problem with stuff like that because
              my analytical brain seems to get in the way of my creative brain.

              But you don't need to come up with incredibly viral videos and ideas to
              make money in this business. I'm living proof of that.

              Bottom line: You don't need to be a big thinker to come home with a big
              payday.
              I've found that as I rocket uncontrollably toward the grave, I've become more of a deep thinker (deep thinking being subjective, of course) and try to get to the core of things a lot more. I find that a deeper understand is, for me, truly inspiring. Not everyone will be like that though and that's quite fine.

              You do bring up a great point at the end too - people don't need to be big thinkers or deep thinkers to succeed.

              Success is living the way that makes you the happiest you can be, which can only come from within. I feel sorry for the people who live their lives going through the horror of trying so be successful by someone else's definition. They will most likely never be happy.

              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
                Originally Posted by Paul_Short View Post

                It used to be that we had a good spread of thinkers around here ... but now it seems that mediocrity has taken over and the big thinkers have been run-off or is this just the way it is around here now?
                There are still thinkers here. They are often swallowed by the noise when they do post. Some don't post very often because of all the negativity, pettiness, and the bilgewater being pumped out by posers.


                Originally Posted by Paul_Short View Post

                Mind warriors, yes of course, I'll have a closer look and put my stuff in the proper category.
                I haven't been there in a while, but if it hasn't changed you may be disappointed. The last few times I was there it seemed to be more like the off-topic forum than a place for discussions about mindset (customer mindset or your own). Even the "mind stuff" wasn't deep -- more like fishing expeditions, if you know what I mean.
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                • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                  Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                  I haven't been there in a while, but if it hasn't changed you may be disappointed. The last few times I was there it seemed to be more like the off-topic forum than a place for discussions about mindset (customer mindset or your own). Even the "mind stuff" wasn't deep -- more like fishing expeditions, if you know what I mean.
                  Yes, the last time I poked my nose into Mind Warriors, all the content was a Secret...
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              How hard is that?
              More to the point, how interesting is it?

              Here's something to think about. Frank Kern has been discovering this.

              Marketing is the matching of a product to a customer.

              You can do it in both directions. You can find out what product the customer wants and lead the customer to the product, or you can find out what customer wants the product and take the product to the customer.

              And then you can be a middleman. You can simply go around being very aware of customers and products, identifying what people want in various places, and what products are available in various places. And when a match appears, you just connect the dots.

              Affiliate marketing isn't just about other people's products. When you flip it around, you'll see it's also about other people's customers.

              None of this is rocket science. But doesn't thinking about it give you some interesting ideas?

              "Find what people want and give it to them" just isn't that interesting. The how and the why are, however.
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      • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Paul,

        Nice mugshot
        Puns of this magnitude should be punishable by death.
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        • Profile picture of the author SteveJohnson
          Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post

          Puns of this magnitude should be punishable by death.
          Death seems a little harsh. Maybe we could just outsource a back-alley mugging?
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          • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
            I have been thinking a lot about statistics lately for some reason. I am not really a mathematician, but sometimes some of the concepts seem applicable to everyday situations.

            This idea that the OP has posited seems to fall into the tendency of "regression to the mean"

            Pretty much what this means is that the bigger a population size, and in the case of the WF, the population would not just be number of members but number of posts as well, there is a tendency for everything to slump to the middle; leaving the overall situation mired in mediocrity.

            There are some great people and some great posts and threads, but in general most everything is just about average.

            The great thinkers put up posts that would fall into the section under the normal curve way out on the tails, more than 3 standard deviations away from the mean.

            Pretty much this means that in order to find posts that are interesting and worthwhile reading, you wind up having to scroll through a mountain of things like: "what is the best autorsponder?" and "I need 600 dollars by next Thursday" and "XXXXX marketing Technique is Dead"

            Or you wind up using some other indicator to find good posts, most often thatn not this is a username.

            Nice thread. Thank you for starting it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Nice mugshot
        Roger, too funny...:p

        Paul,

        A lot of what you see is correct. The forum is huge compared to what it used to be. It had around 80K members when I joined and look at the stats now.

        A thread by Mike Filsaime or Joel Comm won't even make it to the bottom of the index page before it gets tossed. Sometimes for being too promotional, sometimes because it just brings the guru bashers out.

        But what you may really be seeing is just a change in the Main Discussion forum. Sort of a spiral down to the lowest common denominator. You have a lot of posters here start threads just to pontificate as opposed to share experience or knowledge. Some of them have never made a dime online but they want to posture themselves as having hit the jackpot.

        But also know that a lot of gold is stashed away in the War Room for safe keeping. You're a member in there so I hope you see this, as well.

        And speaking of the "Mind" section, that reminds me I haven't visited that forum in ages...

        ~Bill
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul_Short
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Paul,

        Nice mugshot
        Punny, very punny ;-)

        How you been you old sod?

        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul_Short
          Bill, Rod, Chris and Michael, I see what you guys mean. Totally.

          I also see a great opportunity for someone to stroll in here and open up a big can of intellectual whoopass on the forum and dominate in their own way. They just need to do it without inciting a riot. Granted, someone else always seems to do the rioting thing and distract everyone, but still, meat is meat and the ones who really want it can look past the strife.

          So who wants to be the pied piper?

          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Paul_Short View Post

            Bill, Rod, Chris and Michael, I see what you guys mean. Totally.

            I also see a great opportunity for someone to stroll in here and open up a big can of intellectual whoopass on the forum and dominate in their own way. They just need to do it without inciting a riot. Granted, someone else always seems to do the rioting thing and distract everyone, but still, meat is meat and the ones who really want it can look past the strife.

            So who wants to be the pied piper?

            Paul
            I'd give it a shot but sadly, I think I'm on the last of my 9 lives here.
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            • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
              There's still a lot of quality on here, it just gets lost in the shuffle occasionally because it's a much busier place than a few years ago.

              To be honest I prefer this place now than 4 years ago when I joined, the quality is still here but there is more variety.
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          • Profile picture of the author Theory5
            Originally Posted by Paul_Short View Post

            Bill, Rod, Chris and Michael, I see what you guys mean. Totally.

            I also see a great opportunity for someone to stroll in here and open up a big can of intellectual whoopass on the forum and dominate in their own way. They just need to do it without inciting a riot. Granted, someone else always seems to do the rioting thing and distract everyone, but still, meat is meat and the ones who really want it can look past the strife.

            So who wants to be the pied piper?

            Paul
            NOw, I have only just joined this forum a few months ago, however I think I see the reason that everything has shifted from "high leverage" stuff to "Low leverage" stuff. I have started IM, and right now I am working on getting my name out there with a technology blog (sig). But like many new people I had no idea what to do or where to start. So I asked a bunch of "low leverage" questions in these forums to try and grasp all that information that had been thrown at me.
            I think the forums have changed because of all the new internet marketeers trying to make money. Some were lured here with the promise of little work for huge returns, others in hopes of quickly piecing their shattered lives back together, or becoming millionaires overnight. Just take a look in the WSO section, all of those get rich quick schemes draw in mass amounts of people who are either greedy or not too bright. That is the kind of crowd the warrior forum is starting to attract, because of all these get rich quick schemes.
            Just my two cents.
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          • Profile picture of the author profitsforall
            Originally Posted by Paul_Short View Post

            Bill, Rod, Chris and Michael, I see what you guys mean. Totally.

            I also see a great opportunity for someone to stroll in here and open up a big can of intellectual whoopass on the forum and dominate in their own way. They just need to do it without inciting a riot. Granted, someone else always seems to do the rioting thing and distract everyone, but still, meat is meat and the ones who really want it can look past the strife.

            So who wants to be the pied piper?

            Paul
            Paul,

            Lead by example. If you want more big picture posts, post some.
            I'm sure it will inspire healthy discussion and provoke some thought.

            You have the power to shape this forum, not just to comment on what it's lacking.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul_Short
              Originally Posted by profitsforall View Post

              Paul,

              Lead by example. If you want more big picture posts, post some.
              I'm sure it will inspire healthy discussion and provoke some thought.

              You have the power to shape this forum, not just to comment on what it's lacking.
              Well most of the stuff I've been doing and thinking about lately would be better suited for the Mind Warriors section of the forum, where, alarmingly, not too many people seem to spend much time.

              The reason why I said alarmingly is because marketing is essentially a mind thing. The rest of the stuff is just details.

              For example:

              -----

              How do I build a list?

              Offer something compelling enough to get people to enter their email address to get it.

              How do I compel people to do that?

              Psychological triggers. (Their mind)

              -----

              How do I get traffic to my website?

              Realize that the traffic is made up of people, who have minds, and compel them to visit your site.

              ----

              How do I get followers and friends on Twitter and Facebook?

              Compelling content, social proof, value, friendship, help, etc... all in their minds.

              ----

              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author myob
                Just read Autoresponder Magic again. All these questions are answered for the sincere seeker.
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                • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  Just read Autoresponder Magic again. All these questions are answered for the sincere seeker.






                  ~Bill
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul_Short
                    Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post






                    ~Bill
                    LOL, yeah, my brain almost bluescreened on that one too ;-)
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          • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
            Originally Posted by Paul_Short View Post

            So who wants to be the pied piper?
            Paul,

            Bill Platt is currently the one attempting to fill some kind of void here. His uses of humor and misdirection are causing quite a stir.

            Perhaps if you and others teamed up and gang strangled the MDF the direction could be moved from the current 'entitlement/ranting/things that are dead/universal help desk' model to one that provides the actual marketing savy many of us come here to study and/or share.

            It's not that there isn't a boatload of quality marketing advice being given out here, it's more a case of having to filter through the chaff to get to the wheat.

            So let's cut to the chase... who do you think is better, Aweber or GetResponse? :rolleyes:

            ~Bill
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      • Profile picture of the author rcritchett
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Paul,

        Nice mugshot
        Nice! This is awesome.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Paul,

          Good to see you back.

          I've been reading along, and there are some points here I agree with and some I don't. I'm more interested in why some haven't been brought up at all.

          The size of the group has a little to do with some aspects of the discussion, but not in the way this thread addresses. The "regression to the mean" thing assumes a lot, and misses the sub-populations in the various topical sections. There are a number of significantly different cultures in this forum now. That wasn't the case when you were here previously.

          There are a few factors pushing things toward the narrow focus and technique vs strategy orientation. The biggest are the number of people for whom English is a second language and the folks who've turned to IM as a way out of a desperate situation.

          We've always had a relatively large contingent of people for whom English is a second language. It has only been recently, though, that we've begun to attract so many who speak it poorly. That's not a personal criticism, mind you. It's just an acknowledgment of the facts.

          When someone tries to read through enough threads that are made more difficult by translating nearly incoherent comments, it gets wearing. They're less likely to reply in those.

          It's also the case that many of those same people are here for no other purpose than to spam the board. Whether directly, with outright ads, or indirectly, with link spam in their sig files. That raises the level of suspicion directed at anyone with trouble communicating in English. When that hits a certain point, the annoyance becomes directed at the forum as a whole.

          The folks in a desperate situation are another issue entirely. They don't care about business building or thinking strategically. They're worried about their rent, and it's often an immediate worry. That shows through in their posts, and causes a focus on the narrow band of "What do I do right now?"

          It also tends to contribute to the sale of offers that appeal to someone in that kind of situation. That is a significant chunk of the reason for the hype and promises we see in too many WSOs. And it creates a push on the longer-term thinkers. You cannot often effectively communicate that kind of philosophy to someone who's desperate.

          There's also something of an "endless September" effect.

          That phrase is from the old Usenet days. Back when Internet connectivity was limited, and the majority of newsgroup access was through colleges, every September brought a new crop of people who had no knowledge of the culture and behavioral norms of Usenet. The craziness lasted typically 6 weeks or so, as the experienced members of the various groups educated the newbies.

          When the Internet was opened to the public, and enough people started to come online, the old-timers declared "the endless September." A constant, never-ending parade of people who neither knew nor cared about the way things worked, and had to work, for those groups to function effectively.

          Online marketers were one of the chief causes of those problems back then. We're now seeing the impact of something much like it, as the reality of making money on the net has become common knowledge. Mix in the outsourcing of abusive SEO tactics to people in countries where the cost of living is, in American dollars, very low. You've pretty much got the general picture.

          I predict another 3 to 5 years before online custom is familiar enough to the majority of people that the abuse drops to the level of constant background noise.

          There's a whole other aspect to your question that's not been explored as much as I think it might: Big picture thinkers tend to congregate together. You'll find them in the War Room to some degree, and in some of the sub-forums. You won't see as much of them in main discussion, simply because small thinking repels them, and there's too much focus on minutiae and negativity in a lot of threads.

          Not to mention the number of people who post stuff that's both foolish and within the rules, just for the attention. And, of course, the folks who can't be bothered to use appropriate thread titles, or use ridiculous ones to boost readership, as though that's somehow useful. Those things irritate a lot of people, who are then less likely to bother with most threads.

          Those are all important factors, but they tend to be counter-balanced by the folks who regularly post useful information and sensible advice. There've always been problems, and there always will be. The only real change from 9 years ago to now is that the span of time has shortened between cycles. That same parade of new members also helps ensure that we've got a regular growth in the number of experienced folks who help push the place upward in value.

          It's an evolving society. Change happens.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            There's also something of an "endless September" effect.
            Man, I haven't heard that phrase since... well, since AOL opened their internet gateway.

            There's a whole other aspect to your question that's not been explored as much as I think it might: Big picture thinkers tend to congregate together.
            Hence the popularity of masterminds. The appeal of several big thinkers in a room where small thinkers simply are not allowed should be obvious.

            Something I've noticed in a few paid masterminds is that even when the cost is reasonably high (granted, I'm not in any $750 a month masterminds or anything), small thinkers will pay the entry fee and bring their small thinking right in with them. Since they've paid the fee, and they clearly need the help, it's hard to eliminate them unless they actively disrupt the group.

            I sort of like the idea of an invitation-only mastermind. I used to be on a list called "MUD-DEV" back in the day; it consisted entirely of people who were invited to join once the list deemed them worthy. At first, these were people hand-picked by JC Lawrence as luminaries of the online MUD development field. Later, it grew to include many high-profile game developers from large studios.

            But around the year 2000, after some high-profile coverage by a research study in Helsinki, Finland... they threw open the doors. The general public could join, and they did. The level of conversation sank to petty bickering almost immediately - precisely as most of us (including the list owner) had predicted. It died a slow and agonising death as everyone interesting gradually left.

            I find it interesting that the Warrior Forum, while it went through a similar transition, has weathered it more or less unscathed. The big thinkers are still here. They are still thinking their big thoughts. They are just not posting them as often.

            Look at the OP. How long since you've posted, Paul?

            Not to mention the number of people who post stuff that's both foolish and within the rules, just for the attention.
            Signature
            "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author lonicera
            I'm pretty new to all this stuff too, although I've been around for a while.. and yes, I belong to the group of people who learn English at school, and yes I'm very often in desperate financial situations, trying to find a way out through online marketing.

            However, it was just recently that I stopped searching for "methods" and started my search for knowledge. The moment I changed my approach towards internet marketing I noticed changes. It's a business, not a hobby.
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            • Originally Posted by lonicera View Post

              I'm pretty new to all this stuff too, although I've been around for a while.. and yes, I belong to the group of people who learn English at school, and yes I'm very often in desperate financial situations, trying to find a way out through online marketing.

              However, it was just recently that I stopped searching for "methods" and started my search for knowledge. The moment I changed my approach towards internet marketing I noticed changes. It's a business, not a hobby.
              +1 marketing internets. tomorrow I'm going on a marketing podcast to plead that people do exactly what you did
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul_Short
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Paul,

            Good to see you back.
            Thanks Paul, it's good to be back :-)

            I guess I'm one of the endless September right now, to a certain degree, but it shouldn't take me too long to re-acclimate.

            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


            It's an evolving society. Change happens.

            Paul
            Yet so much is still the same.

            Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    Paul,

    Good to see you in here again. I'm not sure how long it's been for you but some of it now gets posted over at the Mind Warriors forum at Mind Warriors - Success, Power, Self-Improvement

    Without naming names I know some of the "big thinkers", whom I know personally, seldom post here now for a variety of reasons. Some felt like too many of their posts were being deleted, others felt attacked when they would come in and defend a well-known marketer, and others have simply found other places to post. And some don't post to forums anymore, period.

    RoD
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  • The big thinkers were entrepeneurs, what you have in this forum now is an army of opportunists. Two very different animals.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Sorrell
    Most people are just looking for a quick buck. Not much else.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Hi Paul,

    Reminds me of a lyric...

    Take it back
    Gonna show you how
    To take it back
    Take it all back now
    All it takes is to take it all back
    Take it back
    Take it all back now
    I trust the deep thinkers among us will gather my intended meaning.



    All the best,
    Michael
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    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
    Hi Paul,
    It's good to see you back!

    Here's the flute, -=======
    Lead the way my friend.

    Have a Great Day!
    Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Paul_Short View Post

    Is it that mediocrity has taken over and the big thinkers have been run-off or is this just the way it is around here now?
    We're here, there's just so much of the other stuff we get lost in the shuffle. ExRat and Paul Myers still do a lot of that, but usually as replies rather than starting their own threads.

    But people generally don't like us.

    Yesterday, I was in a mastermind group, and explained an idea I had.

    I thought it would be interesting to see how a large list solved a problem, so I suggested someone might do an email where the list is told they can have a product for half-price if they bring someone else who orders at the same time, but only one half of the list gets the link and the other half has to find it. Probably by asking someone from the first half of the list. Both halves of the list have the option to say "can't be arsed" and just buy at full price.

    I thought this would be an interesting experiment.

    Immediately, everyone started jumping in and trying to solve my problem.

    The consensus was that I must be doing this to achieve some specific result that I wanted, but couldn't figure out how to get. Everyone started trying to guess what I was trying to do so they could help me do it better.

    Nobody quite grasped that I want to see what happens. And when I tried to explain it, they just couldn't wrap their minds around the idea.

    Wait, this isn't about the promotion and the sales and the money?

    What's the point of that?

    In general, I don't talk about these things for exactly this reason. We're on different pages. I say "wouldn't this be interesting," and I expect someone else to say "well, wouldn't this be interesting" and then we can both talk about why they're interesting. But instead, a mob pops up going "Why is that interesting? I don't see the point. Why don't you do this instead? It would get better results."

    I'd love to have deep thought discussions with people. I just can't do it here. Or anywhere else I've found, for that matter.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul_Short
      @CDarklock We should talk.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Paul_Short View Post

        @CDarklock We should talk.
        That would be interesting.
        Signature
        "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      I'd love to have deep thought discussions with people. I just can't do it here. Or anywhere else I've found, for that matter.
      I'm always available if you ever want to get into really deep psychological
      conversations.

      But be warned...I can get very bizarre.
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    • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

      In general, I don't talk about these things for exactly this reason. We're on different pages. I say "wouldn't this be interesting," and I expect someone else to say "well, wouldn't this be interesting" and then we can both talk about why they're interesting. But instead, a mob pops up going "Why is that interesting? I don't see the point. Why don't you do this instead? It would get better results."

      I'd love to have deep thought discussions with people. I just can't do it here. Or anywhere else I've found, for that matter.
      The OP brings up a REALLY good point.

      And some of the responses to your post (I think yesterday) were obviously on a different track than your OP. It would have been interesting to talk about your ideas, but with all the noise, I didn't see commenting as being too worthwhile.

      The only place I've seen where ideas such as the one you presented could be talked about and developed is on StomperNet ... that is one high level forum. Of course, at $200/month it better be .

      I haven't been here long enough to know the culture, but it seems like a subforum of the War Room might be a good place to have discussions such as that. My thought is the people who feel everything should be free can stay out in the general forum, while the subforum would be a place to reduce the noise to an acceptable level.

      And maybe put it on a monthly fee (running and ducking.)

      I've got more ideas, but I've probably posted enough to get some people irritated .

      Marvin
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      • Profile picture of the author KEY
        I think the problem is that this or any forum is an
        almost organic construct that changes based on the
        people 'populating' it at any given time.

        over the last few years the (world) economy had
        driven more of the 'fast/quick opportunity' seekers
        to cast their eyes on the internet. prior to this, it
        was the infomercials suggesting having a 1-800 line
        as the path to security.

        add in the many "how to BS your way to success on
        forums" e-books and you end end with those of us that
        wish to actually have dialogs with people both more and
        less successful, contrasted with people just trying to
        hammer up their post counts to have their lame product
        in their signature for as many views as possible!

        with the size of this forum it does not take long for
        'those' kind of people to find the WF.

        Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

        A thread by Mike Filsaime or Joel Comm won't even make it to the bottom of the index page before it gets tossed. Sometimes for being too promotional, sometimes because it just brings the guru bashers out.
        this is a shame, as again it is 'those' people that want to
        try and make a name for themselves by not only having
        a thread scrap, but have one with a 'big' marketer. I guess
        in the belief that they will gain influence or something?

        Originally Posted by Paul_Short View Post

        So who wants to be the pied piper?
        no pipe, but will be glad to stick my 2 cents in when I feel
        that I have something to contribute.

        Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

        too funny! thanks for the laugh

        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        ...I thought this would be an interesting experiment...I want to see what happens.
        this is because you have the audacity to actually try out
        ideas for yourself! who said you were allowed to think on
        your own? :p

        there are also far too many that fail to understand that
        there is a BIG difference between a heated debate and
        a stupid name calling flame war.

        this thread, is the kind of thread I hope to see more of
        in the future. an interesting question that leads to a lot
        of different perspectives. (and several bad puns/jokes)

        should be interesting to see how it evolves.

        KEY (eric)
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  • Profile picture of the author Damien Roche
    Problem is, we can only regurgitate the same old stuff so many times before the experienced forum players get bored and don't listen.

    So, even if somebody did begin to heighten the discussion by sharing 'light bulb' thoughts, they will only find their place as leading the beginners, and let's face it, anybody can lead the beginners.

    I haven't posted in about 4 or 5 months and I can even see a drastic change in the content and from what I can see a few long-term frequents have disappeared. Put this down to whatever - personally, I believe milking the advertising opportunities has had a bad effect.

    Ads are everywhere now to the point where it detracts from the content. Ads in the header, ads in the footer, ads *and now* any kind of image based ads in signatures. Basically, we have sold out a little because we are feeding the opportunists without any regard for integrity. Of course, this happens all the time, but the forum never catered to such a degree.

    It's saddening

    Move over to the war room, that's where the real stuff is now
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
    Banned
    The WF is useful/entertaining. But a LARGE majority of people aren't making money. And of the people that are making money, it would more likely be described as "hustling for money".

    And I don't mean hustling in a perjorative sense. I consider anyone a hustler who:

    A) Trades dollars for time e.g. Article Writers
    B) Is not focused, even if they are making money e.g. 1000 niche sites.
    C) Primarily focused on tactics e.g. Link Wheels and Profile linking.

    I see people on here that make BIG MONEY, but they don't post that often. They started out the same way as everyone else, but eventually built a real business. And for the most part, they focus more on fundamentals rather than tactics. But seriously nobody pays attention to their posts. They go for the quick fix.

    Stompernet back when it was $800/month, was a great place. Not sure now. But you had some people there that built really large businesses and had open minds to new tests.

    Look at the SEO tips in any free forum. They revolve completely around link wheels, bookmarking, and profile linking.
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  • Profile picture of the author eQuus
    Originally Posted by Paul_Short View Post


    Is it that mediocrity has taken over and the big thinkers have been run-off or is this just the way it is around here now?

    Paul
    ... Or could it be you came back without your mind, and ergo find the place minds-less?
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    I have only been here just over a yr and to be honest I have not really come across a lot of big talk,strategies or even just intelligible conversations targeting what we are about which is making good money.

    But wouldn't this thread Paul also be a whine? Why not just start if off in the tone you want to see and others would contribute.
    I came to the warrior forum because I was told it was THE place for marketer's. I enjoy being part of the community but I see threads pop up everyday where someone is whining about something. I am starting to do well in my efforts and I glean off of some people like Dennis G Caliban Paul M Mike m even Wags at times but I have yet to see a lot of talk about making millions and If I did I would not be able to comment because I have yet to break 100k never mind a million.

    As Ghandi said-be the change you want to see in others
    just my thought
    -Will
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  • Profile picture of the author rcritchett
    Originally Posted by Paul_Short View Post

    Hi folks,

    It's been a long time since I posted here on the WarriorForum but since it's 2011 and a brand new year, I thought I'd take a peek in and see how y'all are doing. But lemme tell ya, after spending a couple days getting a feel for the place again, I'm somewhat concerned with the mindset I see has developed around here since my absence.

    It used to be that we had a good spread of thinkers around here, back in the day. We had frequent posts that would challenge the mind. We had people posting really deep stuff that delved into the subconscious of the herd mind - real "light bulb" stuff.

    But now it seems tons of people are whining about details, shouting the word SCAMMER left and right, jumping down each other's throats for the silliest reasons.

    Is it that mediocrity has taken over and the big thinkers have been run-off or is this just the way it is around here now?

    How about some good meaty stuff again? Anyone up for that sort of thing anymore, or am I in the wrong place?

    Paul
    I hear you completely. Nice to meet you, I'm Ryan.
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  • Profile picture of the author Orator
    I have to say guys... this is the most depressing thread I've read in a long time here at WF. When I came to this place, I found it an exciting community full of intelligent people who were willing to share their knowledge of IM. As I've grown in my knowledge I've tried to give back where I can.

    Yet reading the responses in this thread makes me wonder if people aren't pining for a mythical utopia that never really existed. I can appreciate the frustration that comes with people not using the search button, or the issues that arise when English isn't a first language.

    Still WF is a great place right now, and quite frankly I doubt any specific person can lead this community back to some glorious past. So with all due respect Paul, you seem like a nice guy and someone worth a good talking to. I think you might be judging the current state of things a little to harshly.

    Just my opinion, take it as you will.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by Orator View Post

      I have to say guys... this is the most depressing thread I've read in a long time here at WF. When I came to this place, I found it an exciting community full of intelligent people who were willing to share their knowledge of IM. As I've grown in my knowledge I've tried to give back where I can.

      Yet reading the responses in this thread makes me wonder if people aren't pining for a mythical utopia that never really existed. I can appreciate the frustration that comes with people not using the search button, or the issues that arise when English isn't a first language.

      Still WF is a great place right now, and quite frankly I doubt any specific person can lead this community back to some glorious past. So with all due respect Paul, you seem like a nice guy and someone worth a good talking to. I think you might be judging the current state of things a little to harshly.

      Just my opinion, take it as you will.
      While there may have been a general decline in the quality of posts, the deep thinkers still exist in here, and Paul's assessment isn't entirely bleak.

      He's right in his assessment that many of the deeper discussions tend to occur in the sub-forums outside of the Main Discussion area, and if you took the time to peruse the threads there I think you'd be pleasantly surprised. The topics discussed may not be of interest to you, but there's certainly both deep and spirited discussion transpiring outside of this main area.

      Part of the decline can be traced to the overall state of the economy today. As with almost everything, this is a cyclical phenomenon that will eventually turn around in a few years, and I'm almost certain that the level of discourse and overall atmosphere in this forum will also change as a result of this.

      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Orator
        Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

        While there may have been a general decline in the quality of posts, the deep thinkers still exist in here, and Paul's assessment isn't entirely bleak.

        He's right in his assessment that many of the deeper discussions tend to occur in the sub-forums outside of the Main Discussion area, and if you took the time to peruse the threads there I think you'd be pleasantly surprised. The topics discussed may not be of interest to you, but there's certainly both deep and spirited discussion transpiring outside of this main area.

        Part of the decline can be traced to the overall state of the economy today. As with almost everything, this is a cyclical phenomenon that will eventually turn around in a few years, and I'm almost certain that the level of discourse and overall atmosphere in this forum will also change as a result of this.

        Paul
        I would like to note... there are a lot of Paul's around here it seems. I admit I hadn't thought about the link the economy might play on the influx of new people to the forum.

        Desperate people often want a quick fix, not a new business to learn. I will take your advice though, and dig around for some of these deep thinking threads.

        As a final note, I've never read one wasted post from yourself paul. You give great value to this community, and the newbies like little old me.
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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by Orator View Post

          I would like to note... there are a lot of Paul's around here it seems. I admit I hadn't thought about the link the economy might play on the influx of new people to the forum.

          Desperate people often want a quick fix, not a new business to learn. I will take your advice though, and dig around for some of these deep thinking threads.

          As a final note, I've never read one wasted post from yourself paul. You give great value to this community, and the newbies like little old me.
          I couldn't agree more. Your judgment and thinking is clouded when you're desperate, and the last possible thing you'd want to do when you're in that state of mind is carefully read through long posts and take the time to compose a thoughtful and insightful response.

          Just as a side note, I think you'll find more lively and thoughtful discussion transpiring in the War Room as well as the Offline Marketing sub-forum; the Copywriting forum is also pretty interesting.

          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Orator,
    Yet reading the responses in this thread makes me wonder if people aren't pining for a mythical utopia that never really existed. I can appreciate the frustration that comes with people not using the search button, or the issues that arise when English isn't a first language.
    That is a big part of the response we often get when people come back after a long time away from the forum. The old filters that led them to the good stuff and away from the noise have rusted, and there are a lot of names that aren't familiar. Add in the proliferation of sub-forums, and you've pretty much nailed it.

    Like any other large group, this place is what you make it. Both literally and figuratively.

    Caliban,
    since AOL opened their internet gateway.
    [chuckle] The first day of the Endless September. Leave it to you to remember the exact start of the thing.

    I've seen a ton of groups that fell prey to the same problems as you describe for MUD-DEV. The thing that's kept it to a more manageable degree here is member moderation. I think the majority of people here would be stunned at the amount of dreck that gets deleted every day.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Orator
      That is a big part of the response we often get when people come back after a long time away from the forum. The old filters that led them to the good stuff and away from the noise have rusted, and there are a lot of names that aren't familiar. Add in the proliferation of sub-forums, and you've pretty much nailed it.

      Like any other large group, this place is what you make it. Both literally and figuratively.
      Your correct of course, this community will rise and fall depending upon the actions of its members. From what little I've seen of your writing, it would definitely benefit from anything you have to offer.

      With that in mind, I'm off to see exactly what your signature has to tell me.
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  • Profile picture of the author pavionjsl
    "I'm not saying your assessment is right or wrong, but for the most part, I
    agree with it."

    Just say you agree.......all day to say half a days sentence.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rough Outline
    Paul, I haven't seen you post here before apart from this thread and the thread you posted yesterday but I'm agreeing with everything you're saying.

    Too many followers around and not enough leaders.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
    Originally Posted by Paul_Short View Post

    Hi folks,


    How about some good meaty stuff again? Anyone up for that sort of thing anymore, or am I in the wrong place?

    Paul
    I quit posting meaty stuff about a year ago because it got deleted too often. Seriously, some of the best stuff I've ever offered with no strings attached would just vanish because some mod obviously thought I was trying to hock something or set people up for a sale.

    Maybe I was being punished because the copy was just too good for a simple forum post? I dunno.

    So I spent much less time sharing valuable info with people around here when I knew there was a high probability that it would be deleted.
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    • Profile picture of the author JustinBrooke
      Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

      I quit posting meaty stuff about a year ago because it got deleted too often. Seriously, some of the best stuff I've ever offered with no strings attached would just vanish because some mod obviously thought I was trying to hock something or set people up for a sale.
      Srsly, you cannot do anything "good" in this forum without
      people thinking it has some underlying purpose to it.

      It's sad that in this industry when you do something good,
      sell something at a fair price, or sell a legitimate money
      making strategy you have to explain yourself six ways to
      Sunday.

      All the "scammery" and "launch hype" can be fixed by people
      just unsubscribing and ignoring anyone doing it.

      We control the power... Not them
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        I'm not here to get in an arguement. Forgive me if this comes across the wrong way, that's not my intention.

        I've learned a lot and been on the lists a long time, of both Jason and Mr Brookes. Heck Justin, You're a mucker on facebook. I hope you're both well.

        I'd just like this point about the meaty stuff cleared up for my own benefit.

        Jason mentioned giving out some of his best stuff that was no strings attached and it was deleted because mods thought he was trying to flog something. Giving out quality stuff for free. I see that all the time in the War Room (and sometimes not). What I mean is, isn't that where you're mean't to do that? Or was it deleted from there?

        Justin said "when you do something good, sell something at a fair price, or sell a legitimate money making strategy you have to explain yourself six ways to Sunday." Again, isn't that what the WSO sections for? Or was that deleted from there?

        I was just under the impression since I got here that in this forum no self promotion was allowed, or was frowned upon and that's why you have the other sections.

        Like I say I'm not starting an arguement, I just thought there were certain things you could do in some places and some things you can't, in others.

        Like I said, I've not been here long enough to comment on what happenned before I arrived but that's what I've been led to believe is the way it is now.

        Good or bad, I've no idea, I'm just trying to figure it out.
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        Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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    • Profile picture of the author warriorkay
      Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

      I quit posting meaty stuff about a year ago because it got deleted too often. Seriously, some of the best stuff I've ever offered with no strings attached would just vanish because some mod obviously thought I was trying to hock something or set people up for a sale.

      Maybe I was being punished because the copy was just too good for a simple forum post? I dunno.

      So I spent much less time sharing valuable info with people around here when I knew there was a high probability that it would be deleted.
      I agree with you, Jason... I agree wholeheartedly,

      Even though I haven't suffered too much of such fate
      I also have fears that my "meaty" posts would get
      deleted - especially as I see other similar "meaty"
      posts get deleted for one reason or another -
      sometimes having nothing to do with the post itself,
      but the response/perceptions/too popular/etc.

      For example, I wrote this fantastic comprehensive
      post... the one you will call "meaty" about how I am
      on track to hit $1,000,000 this 2011 and included real
      PRACTICAL ways/strategies/techniques of achieving
      it. It is, in my mind, a truly awesome post.

      It also included how spending about $2,000 a week
      in this forum on banner ads is resulting in crazy ROI
      and included my exact strategies/techniques, etc
      and how I intend to scale that figure by replicating
      the techniques in other high traffic IM sites/forums.

      ETC

      But guess what - I NEVER POSTED IT. It's still right
      here with me. Instead, I read it daily and adjust it,
      making it better and better... and learning more from
      it daily.

      What's sad is that if I had posted it, I would surely
      learn a lot from others that WILL DEFINITELY have
      better ideas to share with me or improve those that
      I have.

      So, there you go...

      Kingsley
      Signature
      Kingged.com Coaching and Partnership Program
      Is The ONLY Coaching Program That Does 99% Of The Work
      TO MAKE MONEY FOR STUDENTS FROM 1ST DAY
      So they EARN while they LEARN

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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

      I quit posting meaty stuff about a year ago because it got deleted too often.
      Anti-guru bias. If all goes well, I'll start having to deal with that by the end of the year.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        Anti-guru bias. If all goes well, I'll start having to deal with that by the end of the year.
        How about another angle besides the "anti-guru" bias.

        When you actually watch people, on this forum, you see patterns of postings.

        For instance, some people who are affiliates of big launches start posting their "meaty" threads with those affiliate links in the signature. Once the launch is done you don't see anymore of these threads until the next launch.

        Mods are not stupid and I don't believe they are out to get anyone.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          Mods are not stupid and I don't believe they are out to get anyone.
          How interesting that you think "anti-guru bias" is an accusation that the mods are stupid and out to get people.

          After all, we are all moderators here, and if enough people report a thread it disappears. It's not necessary for any of the appointed staff to be stupid or out to get anyone; it's only necessary to have a pervasive anti-guru sentiment in the forum.

          Now, HOW many guru-bashing threads get deleted here every day?

          Just sayin'.
          Signature
          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            How interesting that you think "anti-guru bias" is an accusation that the mods are stupid and out to get people.

            Just sayin'.
            Actually, you would be incorrect with your assumption. I understand why you assumed that since I quoted your post.

            I didn't take it that way but was responding to some other theories up thread.

            Please try again.
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              I didn't take it that way but was responding to some other theories up thread.
              Then why didn't you quote those theories?

              See how I quoted the part of your post that is directly relevant to my own? That's what most people do.

              But by all means, feel free to continue your little campaign. I've known about it for months, and I find it amusing.
              Signature
              "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                Then why didn't you quote those theories?

                See how I quoted the part of your post that is directly relevant to my own? That's what most people do.

                But by all means, feel free to continue your little campaign. I've known about it for months, and I find it amusing.
                I didn't want to quote many threads. Good enough? If it isn't, then too bad.

                haha You are a funny man, Caliban.

                Maybe we should get back to the idea behind the thread. You can pm me with your conspiracy theories about my campaign. I would love a good laugh.
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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                  Maybe we should get back to the idea behind the thread.
                  I thought we were: "look at how far the discourse in this forum has sunk."

                  Mo' betta meta.
                  Signature
                  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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        • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          How about another angle besides the "anti-guru" bias.

          When you actually watch people, on this forum, you see patterns of postings.

          For instance, some people who are affiliates of big launches start posting their "meaty" threads with those affiliate links in the signature. Once the launch is done you don't see anymore of these threads until the next launch.

          Mods are not stupid and I don't believe they are out to get anyone.
          I agree. If the post truly was "meaty", then I see no reason why it would get deleted. But if it was, then that kinda sucks. I'm not sure how the process goes here, but I like to think at least one of the mods would have a level head about it.

          Gurus are in the business of promoting, so they should get viewed with some skeptism if their opinion is given right around a related product launch.

          The gurus advice is always "Well, I've known Guru X for a long time, and his stuff is rock solid so you should join if you can". If you listened to them, you'd be broke.

          They are in the business of making YOU spend money.
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          • Profile picture of the author George Wright
            Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

            I agree. If the post truly was "meaty", then I see no reason why it would get deleted. .
            There have been some very "meaty" posts deleted. They were full of great information and actionable advice." And they should have been deleted. They were either articles or posted in the wrong place or any number of other reasons that anyone paying attention here would know.

            Articles are not usually left on the main forum.

            Challenges are not usually left on the main forum.

            SEO topics are usually not left on the main forum.

            On and On There are forums here for articles, etc. etc.

            Mods have even commented on some "Good Info But Wrong Place," and either locked, moved or deleted said good info.

            A lot of Warrior's comments long for the Good Ol Days here on the WF. Well, it stays close as possible to the Good Ol Days when it is kept article free, and we continue to make CONVERSATIONAL posts about making money.

            The sig. The followings we get and all that stuff is just gravy on top of the informative conversations we are supposed to be having.

            I Think,

            George Wright
            Signature
            "The first chapter sells the book; the last chapter sells the next book." Mickey Spillane
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            • Profile picture of the author paulie888
              Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

              There have been some very "meaty" posts deleted. They were full of great information and actionable advice." And they should have been deleted. They were either articles or posted in the wrong place or any number of other reasons that anyone paying attention here would know.

              Articles are not usually left on the main forum.

              Challenges are not usually left on the main forum.

              SEO topics are usually not left on the main forum.

              On and On There are forums here for articles, etc. etc.

              Mods have even commented on some "Good Info But Wrong Place," and either locked, moved or deleted said good info.

              A lot of Warrior's comments long for the Good Ol Days here on the WF. Well, it stays close as possible to the Good Ol Days when it is kept article free, and we continue to make CONVERSATIONAL posts about making money.

              The sig. The followings we get and all that stuff is just gravy on top of the informative conversations we are supposed to be having.

              I Think,

              George Wright
              It's a shame that some of the better threads get deleted or moved to some sub-forum, where they don't receive anywhere near the amount of attention that they deserve.

              Lately, I've been seeing lots of meaty information being shared outside of the main forum, and they tend to get meddled with less than anything posted in this main discussion area. For people longing for the good old days, try visiting some of the sub-forums every now and then, as I think you'll be pleasantly surprised (I have been guilty of this too, and now make a concerted effort to drop into the other sub-forums on a consistent basis).

              Try starting something up in a sub-forum if the category fits, I feel that the conversation flows more freely there, and there's far less judgment and scrutiny occurring. George, I haven't been around this forum as long as you, but I truly feel the conversational tone and discourse there more closely resembles how the good old days used to be - perhaps you can pipe in and share your thoughts about this?

              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author George Wright
                Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

                It's a shame that some of the better threads get deleted or moved to some sub-forum, where they don't receive anywhere near the amount of attention that they deserve.
                Not really, if they don't belong on the main forum, they simply don't belong on the main forum.


                Lately, I've been seeing lots of meaty information being shared outside of the main forum, and they tend to get meddled with less than anything posted in this main discussion area.
                That's great. If the meaty post is an article, you probably see it on the article forum. If it's to offer a free ebook you probably see it on the free ebook forum. If it's to sell something It's probably a WSO or other ad. And if it's about mind power.... Get it?

                George, I haven't been around this forum as long as you, but I truly feel the conversational tone and discourse there more closely resembles how the good old days used to be - perhaps you can pipe in and share your thoughts about thisPaul?
                Hi Paul,

                First off I'm not one of the people who "long" for the good old days. I just want to see the main forum remain the WF and not something else. As it has grown and changed it still has the great info and questions and answers that it always has had.

                The thing that keeps it that way is the Mods great job of Keeping articles off there, keeping "specialized" disscussions off there and leaving it for what it has always been. "Were we talk about making money."

                I think it was a stroke of genius for Allen to make the sub forums for members who really want to discuss "special subjects" having to do with internet marketing. It has made this place grow big time. However...

                Any one of the sub forums' subjects if allowed on the main forum would fill pages and pages from page one and on and on.

                When I have a copy question I usually find the answer on the copy forum. Same with SEO, Mind Warrior etc. I go there not for the "good ol days," but, for the info.

                When I want to converse with others about making money I visit the main forum. It's a cool place, as always.

                George Wright
                Signature
                "The first chapter sells the book; the last chapter sells the next book." Mickey Spillane
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                • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                  Hi Jason,

                  But whatever. I'm not bitter about it. I reckon it was just a jealous mod who didn't like the fact that I f*ck off all the time and don't really give a sh*t about marketing as much as I do surfing and playing with my dog, while still making a bunch of money.
                  Well, they've always taken a tough line on that kind of behaviour.

                  I remember when you posted about being given a Macbook Air by Frank Kern. Nobody could say that you didn't thoroughly deserve it.
                  Signature


                  Roger Davis

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        • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          How about another angle besides the "anti-guru" bias.

          When you actually watch people, on this forum, you see patterns of postings.

          For instance, some people who are affiliates of big launches start posting their "meaty" threads with those affiliate links in the signature. Once the launch is done you don't see anymore of these threads until the next launch.

          Mods are not stupid and I don't believe they are out to get anyone.
          And if you pay attention to my posting habits you'll see that I almost never have anything in my signature except my personal blog (not even my marketing one) and my Facebook page. Never once have I posted an affiliate link in my sig. Not a single time, EVER. I know the rules.

          I also run a WSO about once every 3 or 4 months. It's quite obvious to any intelligent person my main focus isn't to come around here to pillage the forum and make money from this place. While I've done well around here, and am appreciative of the place, I've easily lost out on at least 6 figures by not actively participating in the forum and sharing my products/ideas.

          But whatever. I'm not bitter about it. I reckon it was just a jealous mod who didn't like the fact that I f*ck off all the time and don't really give a sh*t about marketing as much as I do surfing and playing with my dog, while still making a bunch of money.

          I simply ceased posting good stuff. I didn't really bitch about it. I just moved on and decided to do better things.
          Signature
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

            And if you pay attention to my posting habits you'll see that I almost never have anything in my signature except my personal blog (not even my marketing one) and my Facebook page. Never once have I posted an affiliate link in my sig. Not a single time, EVER. I know the rules.
            I can neither confirm nor deny. We can promote affiliates products on our own domain and link our sig to that that domain. I am sure you are aware of that.


            I also run a WSO about once every 3 or 4 months. It's quite obvious to any intelligent person my main focus isn't to come around here to pillage the forum and make money from this place. While I've done well around here, and am appreciative of the place, I've easily lost out on at least 6 figures by not actively participating in the forum and sharing my products/ideas.
            I believe you are running a wso right now, correct?

            I thought your main focus was screwing around and not making money? So no one would expect you to be pillaging this forum because that is work and you would lose your laid back motif.


            But whatever. I'm not bitter about it. I reckon it was just a jealous mod who didn't like the fact that I f*ck off all the time and don't really give a sh*t about marketing as much as I do surfing and playing with my dog, while still making a bunch of money.
            Sounds a little bitter with a splash of assumptions. Hey, as long as you enjoy your life that is cool. I don't think many of us would enjoy the same lifestyle so I couldn't say people are jealous.

            Besides, your concept of making a bunch of money may be different to others.


            I simply ceased posting good stuff. I didn't really bitch about it. I just moved on and decided to do better things.
            I hate to see when you bitch.
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            • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              I thought your main focus was screwing around and not making money? So no one would expect you to be pillaging this forum because that is work and you would lose your laid back motif.
              If you can find a way to live my life without making money, I'm all ears buddy.
              Signature
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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

                If you can find a way to live my life without making money, I'm all ears buddy.
                I don't want to live your life. That was one of the points I was making.

                I love what I do. I will always work because I enjoy it.

                You can always be a gigalo but that could also be considered work.

                Marry a rich woman or rich man. Depends on what floats your boat.

                Get on unemployment. It will keep getting renewed.

                License some of your products and live off of royalties.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Barker
    You know I like your post a lot!

    There was a good point made that I read today somewhere on the internet and it goes, "Life is what you make of it and I am learning this more and more everyday of my life!" -Claude Pepper


    There are still good opportunities out there but people are scared that they will lose. With this mentality they WILL lose.

    I am going to win and that is what keeps me going day to day!
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  • Profile picture of the author kwikgal
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    As I have gotten older, I tend to try to keep things as simple as possible.
    I have also found this to be true, not because I do not think deeply, but most really deep thoughts that gives you that Ahh! moment are in essence truly simple, basic and fundamentally true.

    Anyone that has made it in this business (or any other fulfilling occupation) has found that acquiring a good mentor/program and following through with action is what brings success.

    Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

    As Ghandi said-be the change you want to see in others
    just my thought
    -Will
    So real, I love the idea of working out why people do things, but ultimately I must change myself, as that is the only person I have some control over. Give me a system that works, and I will run with it, even if it is simplistic.

    If there are more posts like this, we can raise the general level of discussion on this forum.

    Thanks for posting this OP.
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  • Profile picture of the author tim413
    Paul_Short

    Hi!!!!! I am new to this forum, as you can tell by the number of my post. Can you put a link up of a big idea thread from the past. I would like to see what you're talking about.

    Tim
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    I ran em all off. I made em think so hard that they fried the brain.
    Signature
    Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
    This thread being a prime example of what Paul is referring to.

    We're only on page 2 of what was shaping up to be an interesting discussion and it's already been largely derailed by petty squabbles and personal agendas.
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  • Profile picture of the author alcymart
    Originally Posted by Paul_Short View Post

    Hi folks,

    It's been a long time since I posted here on the WarriorForum but since it's 2011 and a brand new year, I thought I'd take a peek in and see how y'all are doing. But lemme tell ya, after spending a couple days getting a feel for the place again, I'm somewhat concerned with the mindset I see has developed around here since my absence.

    It used to be that we had a good spread of thinkers around here, back in the day. We had frequent posts that would challenge the mind. We had people posting really deep stuff that delved into the subconscious of the herd mind - real "light bulb" stuff.

    But now it seems tons of people are whining about details, shouting the word SCAMMER left and right, jumping down each other's throats for the silliest reasons.

    Is it that mediocrity has taken over and the big thinkers have been run-off or is this just the way it is around here now?

    How about some good meaty stuff again? Anyone up for that sort of thing anymore, or am I in the wrong place?

    Paul

    I'm all for the Meaty stuff here! You seem good for starting such discussion on some random topic. Be my guess, I'll follow you... why not now... you stated...

    Originally Posted by Paul_Short View Post

    Is it that mediocrity has taken over and the big thinkers have been run-off or is this just the way it is around here now?
    I'll could theorize about the mediocrity syndrome in human nature perhaps after I get some sleep over it My subconscious has been hibernating like a big fat groundhog for so long.

    Take care,

    Bernard St-Pierre
    Marketing Consultant
    Copywriter/Teacher
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  • Profile picture of the author MWGrubb58
    CDarklock,

    I like the way you put everything in perspective. It makes an old-school guy like me understand more of what going on through the forum. There are a number of thinkers that I see running about here. It just a matter of looking and reading, when you have the time.

    I would imagine that most of the "thinkers" here are happy to keep it that way... those that really want to know will find the nuggets... We just shouldn't have to look so hard.

    Paul, thanks for starting this thread.
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  • Profile picture of the author drmani
    Originally Posted by Paul_Short View Post

    It used to be that we had a good spread of thinkers around here, back in the day. We had frequent posts that would challenge the mind. We had people posting really deep stuff that delved into the subconscious of the herd mind - real "light bulb" stuff.
    ...
    Is it that mediocrity has taken over and the big thinkers have been run-off or is this just the way it is around here now?

    How about some good meaty stuff again? Anyone up for that sort of thing anymore, or am I in the wrong place?

    Paul

    It boils down to 3 things, as I see it:

    1. Everyone (and I mean EVERYone, regardless of what you put in your
    sig file or not) is here for a reason - beyond simply engaging with
    a bunch of folks in discussions

    2. To expand horizons (and gain insight that does that sort of expansio)n,
    there has to be interaction with others at the same, if not higher, level
    of development/growth/skills/thinking

    3. There has to be confidence in the mind of those who participate in
    such discussions that while the "motive" (as stated in #1 above) will
    define the content, frequency and nature of posts/conversation...
    that won't be the reason for their posts being deleted, moved to a
    different sub-forum, or locked

    In the past, that used to be the case.

    And then, something changed. I, personally, stopped posting anything
    that took me more than 3 minutes to think, compose and share... because
    beyond that, it was a crap-shoot whether or not the post would last
    long enough to serve my 'motive'.

    And yes, there ALWAYS is one.

    In each instance of such a deletion/move to another forum, there could
    be JUSTIFIABLE reasons that fit the rules/terms of forum participation.
    Those rules have a place, and purpose. No argument about that.

    But in light of the way they were applied, each participant had to make
    judgment calls about whether or not their time and energy invested into
    discussions here was worthwhile.

    Maybe some felt it wasn't - and left. Or changed their style of posting
    and sharing.

    Having been away for a longer time than myself, you've noticed the
    shift more apparently than I have. And very recently, the tide has
    started moving a little back to the way things were before, so I've
    modified my personal posting criteria to posts that take... well... 5
    minutes, rather than three

    All success
    Dr.Mani
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul_Short
      As usual, Dr. Mani, your diagnosis is spot on so there's no point in me trying to re-say what you've said so well already.

      I would, however, like to add my thoughts to whats quoted below:

      Originally Posted by drmani View Post

      It boils down to 3 things, as I see it:

      <snip>

      Having been away for a longer time than myself, you've noticed the
      shift more apparently than I have. And very recently, the tide has
      started moving a little back to the way things were before, so I've
      modified my personal posting criteria to posts that take... well... 5
      minutes, rather than three

      All success
      Dr.Mani
      Yes, I did/do see a lot of changes in the community dynamic and I came back here to the forum for the very reason someone mentioned earlier on in the thread: "Be the change you want to see" or something to that effect.

      That's what we all need to do to cut through the noise. Regardless of what our motives are for being here, this community has given so much to us and we need to give back rather than abandon it just because our motives aren't being served the way we think they should be.

      We make the community and if it goes down hill, we only have ourselves to blame.

      Lets roll with the punches and set the bar higher than it's ever been around here. :-)

      Paul
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