Am I Expecting Too Much?

28 replies
Please help me in this.

I have bought a few WSO's since becoming a member and before then some IM products, but few have been written well enough for my liking. I don't know if I am expecting too much (I personally don't think I am), or are these products just plain rubbish or the product creator hasn't taken the time to make sure what they are selling is understandable to potential buyers?

When I buy a product or WSO I expect the author/creator to have written it in a way that even a newbie will be able to understand it and implement it the same day they take action on it. Is that too much to ask for consider the majority of IM product customers are newbies?

What about when you buy a product an in it you are told you need to do a specific task, but that task is not explained enough for you to be able to complete it. Do you think that is due to error of the author/creator or am I simply expecting too much again? Should I be expected to go and buy further products to help me implement the tasks from the other product? I certainly don't think so, and if that is the case for the author/creator, I think their ethics need to come into question.

I always believe that being successful in any business, you need to be able to help your buyers and well as provide suitable customer support. It's not all about the money as much as we need it. I have not been in this business that long (6-8 months) and have not made a great deal of money, but as much as me and my family need it, I am happy to be able to help other people by providing them with solutions to their problems. Isn't that the way it's meant to be?

Please help me out guys. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.
#expecting
  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Mike,
    What about when you buy a product an in it you are told you need to do a specific task, but that task is not explained enough for you to be able to complete it. Do you think that is due to error of the author/creator or am I simply expecting too much again? Should I be expected to go and buy further products to help me implement the tasks from the other product? I certainly don't think so, and if that is the case for the author/creator, I think their ethics need to come into question.
    That depends a great deal on what the process is. But the last sentence just dropped this whole objection into the crank pile for me.

    If a product is about advanced list building techniques and doesn't go into the basics of hosting a domain or adding an opt-in form to the pages, that's not a failure of the author. It assumes a certain level of knowledge on the part of the customer. Just like most products for online marketers assume you know how to do things like upload a file to a web site or link to a downloadable file.

    If every instructional product had to explain every basic little thing that was involved in using it, they'd all start at 738 pages long, and you'd spend most of your time trying to find the new stuff in amongst all the repetitive nonsense.

    The thing that turned your post into crank-bait for me is the attempt to make a practical issue of what is and is not necessary into an ethical judgment on the author.

    The fact that you can't be bothered to Google something does not mean the person who failed to explain something that's assumed as a necessary skill for usage of the product is somehow a crook.

    May I suggest that you apply your research skills to clarifying for yourself the difference between preference and ethics?


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author rosetrees
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      If a product is about advanced list building techniques and doesn't go into the basics of hosting a domain or adding an opt-in form to the pages, that's not a failure of the author. It assumes a certain level of knowledge on the part of the customer.
      That CAN be a failure of the author - as a teacher.

      If a product (or tutorial) assumes knowledge on the part of the student, then it should state up front what knowledge is assumed. As a teacher I try to do this. Anything that claims to give you the "exact method" should do just that - unless is specifically tells you what you should know before starting.

      I'll probably get flamed for this but I think we all know that some wsos are written by less experienced Warriors who are simply hoping to make money from them.

      In the past I've reviewed potential wsos and told the authors to make it clear who the wso is aimed at. I've also read some that were truly awful - and discouraged their author from listing them. I have no idea whether they were listed and I'm sure some equally awful ones do get listed from time to time.

      My best suggestion to the op is to ask for a refund if the product doesn't come up to expectations - but to explain to the author why you are asking for a refund. A responsive wso author will take your views into account.
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      • Profile picture of the author Vogin
        I'm not sure how "your liking" are relevant to the author, since he probably has more customers than you and therefore can't possibly write anything according to everyone's liking.

        On the other hand, now that you've identified what's bothering you, what's stopping you from contacting the author every time from now on (before you make a purchase) and ask what knowledge is required to implement the product?

        I don't think any responsible author will reject your question...
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
          Originally Posted by Vogin View Post

          I'm not sure how "your liking" are relevant to the author, since he probably has more customers than you and therefore can't possibly write anything according to everyone's liking.

          On the other hand, now that you've identified what's bothering you, what's stopping you from contacting the author every time from now on (before you make a purchase) and ask what knowledge is required to implement the product?

          I don't think any responsible author will reject your question...
          Why is it the responsibility of the buyer to check the level of knowledge they need before buying? That's what the sales copy is for! It should be made clear to save any confusion and possibly any refunds.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ken Durham
        Originally Posted by rosetrees View Post


        I'll probably get flamed for this but I think we all know that some wsos are written by less experienced Warriors who are simply hoping to make money from them.

        could this be true?

        It's a buyer beware world. Complain until you're blue in the face and it doesn't change a thing. At least my taxes haven't decreased..... and I complain a lot about that.
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        yes, I am....

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        • Profile picture of the author Gail_Curran
          You haven't said what the specific task was that you didn't know how to do.

          There's a bit of a difference between "buy a domain and do a redirect" and "set up a high-converting autoresponder series".

          One involves extremely basic web skills and can be Googled in seconds if you're not sure. One involves not-so-basic marketing skills that can take a lot of study and practice. So what was the task you were expected to know how to do?
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
            Originally Posted by Gail_Curran View Post

            You haven't said what the specific task was that you didn't know how to do.

            There's a bit of a difference between "buy a domain and do a redirect" and "set up a high-converting autoresponder series".

            One involves extremely basic web skills and can be Googled in seconds if you're not sure. One involves not-so-basic marketing skills that can take a lot of study and practice. So what was the task you were expected to know how to do?
            I dare not say. I am already treading very lightly in this thread as it is.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Mike,
              I dare not say. I am already treading very lightly in this thread as it is.
              Not in this one. You're fine here, sir.

              Gail,

              Mike isn't being obtuse. I asked him to avoid pointing to the product that inspired our discussion, and resulted in his posting this thread. He is respecting Rule #1, which I appreciate.

              The challenge here is that you'd need to pick multiple examples, and state the level of experience one would reasonably expect a purchaser of the product to have in order to apply the instructions. There's a lot of room for debate on that basis.

              My objections with the OP were the ethical comment and the near-absolute standard he expects product creators to meet. It would result, in my opinion, in absurd problems that don't need to be created.


              Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Mike,That depends a great deal on what the process is. But the last sentence just dropped this whole objection into the crank pile for me.
      I am talking about their ethics in why they created the product. Was it to provide valuable information or just to make a quick buck?

      If a product is about advanced list building techniques and doesn't go into the basics of hosting a domain or adding an opt-in form to the pages, that's not a failure of the author. It assumes a certain level of knowledge on the part of the customer. Just like most products for online marketers assume you know how to do things like upload a file to a web site or link to a downloadable file.
      Assumption is very dangerous (may not be the right word, but all I can think at the moment). Have you considered that assumption in the part of the author is the reason why so many people fail in implementing the source material? I will use a fellow Warriors WSO here as an example of how I think a product should be written. CDarklock & winebuddy released a product a few days ago. The pdf document is over 130 pages which Caliban wrote with very detailed, step-by-step actions that the reader needs to follow to reach the end goal. In my opinion, every product should follow his example.
      The majority of people who buy these products are people who have only just found out about IM and want to make some quick money. If your product is not written with these people in mind, then how do you think they will be able to accomplish the goal? If your answer is "research", then I disagree. The point of a product is to teach! Not in part, but in whole! What's the point of doing it half-arsed? Do it right or don't do it at all in my opinion.

      If every instructional product had to explain every basic little thing that was involved in using it, they'd all start at 738 pages long, and you'd spend most of your time trying to find the new stuff in amongst all the repetitive nonsense.
      Bollocks! If the product was written well enough, people with advanced knowledge would know where to skip and continue where needed.

      The thing that turned your post into crank-bait for me is the attempt to make a practical issue of what is and is not necessary into an ethical judgment on the author.
      Refer to my first response.

      The fact that you can't be bothered to Google something does not mean the person who failed to explain something that's assumed as a necessary skill for usage of the product is somehow a crook.
      As already mentioned, I shouldn't have to Google anything!

      May I suggest that you apply your research skills to clarifying for yourself the difference between preference and ethics?


      Paul
      You may, but no need for me to do so as I already know. You may have misunderstood my meaning.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        rosetrees,
        That CAN be a failure of the author - as a teacher.
        It CAN be, if the skill isn't within a reasonable level to expect of the student, given the nature of the product. But that doesn't mean it IS a failure. Every offer of instruction involves certain levels of knowledge to be assumed.

        Even if it is a failure as a teacher, that doesn't fall into the realm of an ethical lapse, which is why the harsh tone in my first response. I am bloody good and sick of people spouting about how anything that doesn't meet their personal preferences is somehow an ethical failing on the part of the person with a different approach. Mike just pushed that button on the wrong day.

        It's particularly stretching it to suggest such a thing in a venue like the WSO forum, where you can ask those questions of the producer before making the purchase.

        Mike,
        I am talking about their ethics in why they created the product. Was it to provide valuable information or just to make a quick buck?
        Okay. Dictionary time again: Ethics and motivation. Look them up. They can be related, but they are not synonymous.

        Never mind. I'll do it for you:
        eth·ics

        1. (used with a singular or plural verb) a system of moral principles: the ethics of a culture.

        2. the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group, culture, etc.: medical ethics; Christian ethics.

        3. moral principles, as of an individual: His ethics forbade betrayal of a confidence.

        4. (usually used with a singular verb) that branch of philosophy dealing with values relating to human conduct, with respect to the rightness and wrongness of certain actions and to the goodness and badness of the motives and ends of such actions.
        Note the common thread: Moral issue. Not a matter of preference.
        Have you considered that assumption in the part of the author is the reason why so many people fail in implementing the source material?
        Gee, Mike, wow. I never thought of that. Thanks. [/sarcasm]

        Have you considered that the refusal of people to look things up and try to learn something on their own might have a contributory effect? That the failure of a college textbook to explain 3rd grade math isn't really a failure at all?

        I have created products with very close attention to the specific steps involved in doing things the customer might not be reasonably expected to already know. I've created other products that assume certain levels of knowledge on their parts. It is very rare for me to get those expectations wrong for more than a tiny percentage of customers. Should I add dozens, or hundreds, of pages for the rest to wade through in order to help a half a percent of customers avoid the tedium of looking it up in a search engine?

        As I said in my first reply, it depends on how reasonable the level of expectation is. It's not always properly apportioned, but it's hardly a moral issue.
        As already mentioned, I shouldn't have to Google anything!
        Why? And do you really think that every product should pander to your desire to have it all handed to you on a silver platter?

        As you say... Bollocks!

        To suggest that some things shouldn't be assumed is a correct statement. To suggest that you should never have to look outside of a product for any tiny detail that might be involved is a particularly vain posture of entitlement.

        There can be reasonable discussion and disagreement about where the line should be drawn regarding the assumption of existing knowledge, but making it a moral issue is so spurious a charge as to make it difficult to take any of the rest of your comments on the matter seriously.


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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Even if it is a failure as a teacher, that doesn't fall into the realm of an ethical lapse, which is why the harsh tone in my first response. I am bloody good and sick of people spouting about how anything that doesn't meet their personal preferences is somehow an ethical failing on the part of the person with a different approach. Mike just pushed that button on the wrong day.
          This has nothing to do with ethics, but in some circumstances they have to come into question. Do you think everyone is in IM to help others? God no! There are some that are only concerned with making and don't give a damn about how they go about it! But how are we to know that without buying products? You can't possibly say that every member here who has ever released a WSO has been created purely to educate!

          It's particularly stretching it to suggest such a thing in a venue like the WSO forum, where you can ask those questions of the producer before making the purchase.
          How are mean to know without first purchasing the product?! There are so many things a product owner will not disclose before you make a payment, so unless you are hiding a crystal ball that you aren't sharing with us, then how are we meant to know something until we have read it?

          Mike
          ,Okay. Dictionary time again: Ethics and motivation. Look them up. They can be related, but they are not synonymous.

          Never mind. I'll do it for you:

          Note the common thread: Moral issue. Not a matter of preference.Gee, Mike, wow. I never thought of that. Thanks. [/sarcasm]
          Geez! Condescending much?! I'm not trying to make it an ethical/moral issue, but some times you have to question the authors motives as already stated.

          Have you considered that the refusal of people to look things up and try to learn something on their own might have a contributory effect? That the failure of a college textbook to explain 3rd grade math isn't really a failure at all?
          If we all searched for what we want to know through search engines, there would be no need for products to teach. The reason why we buy these products is because we are too damn lazy to do it ourselves and it also saves us time. Here I am thinking that is one of the points in creating a product. Wow, I must have been wrong all this time!

          I have created products with very close attention to the specific steps involved in doing things the customer might not be reasonably expected to already know. I've created other products that assume certain levels of knowledge on their parts. It is very rare for me to get those expectations wrong for more than a tiny percentage of customers.
          You've questioned all your customers about this? You know that for a fact? Just because you haven't gotten any negative feedback (not saying you should be), doesn't mean there have been people unhappy with your product. A lot of people will just get discouraged and give up. Is that how it's supposed to be now?

          Should I add dozens, or hundreds, of pages for the rest to wade through in order to help a half a percent of customers avoid the tedium of looking it up in a search engine?
          If it helps the buyer, why the hell not?!

          As I said in my first reply, it depends on how reasonable the level of expectation is. It's not always properly apportioned, but it's hardly a moral issue.Why? And do you really think that every product should pander to your desire to have it all handed to you on a silver platter?
          I don't expect everything to be handed to me on a silver platter, but I expect every product to be understandable by everyone who reads it. Newbies, Guru's, and everyone in between. You really think that is too much to ask for? Not in my opinion.

          As you say... Bollocks!

          To suggest that some things shouldn't be assumed is a correct statement. To suggest that you should never have to look outside of a product for any tiny detail that might be involved is a particularly vain posture of entitlement.
          Tiny details are fine Paul, I am not complaining about the tiny details. I am talking about details that should be mentioned in order for a buyer to complete the goal of the product.

          There can be reasonable discussion and disagreement about where the line should be drawn regarding the assumption of existing knowledge, but making it a moral issue is so spurious a charge as to make it difficult to take any of the rest of your comments on the matter seriously.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Mike,

            If it's not about ethics, why did you bother with this comment in the OP: "I think their ethics need to come into question."
            When I buy a product or WSO I expect the author/creator to have written it in a way that even a newbie will be able to understand it and implement it the same day they take action on it. Is that too much to ask for consider the majority of IM product customers are newbies?
            Really? Which product?

            I have products that are most assuredly NOT for 'newbies.' Should I dumb them down to cover someone who's buying something he was told was beyond his current level?

            I'll repeat something from earlier, with a twist: If you buy a college level math text, do you accuse the author of some flaw simply because he assumes you've completed the pre-requisite courses? If I buy a book on epistemology or evolutionary genetics, should I become angry with the author because he doesn't review Mendel's work with peas, or the fundamental vocabulary of basic philosophy?

            You are not going to learn everything in any single work of instruction. Get used to that, or get used to being disappointed. You don't need a crystal ball. You need common sense. And, just maybe, the willingness to take responsibility for your own success.

            Unhappiness is the pain caused by the collision between expectation and reality.
            Geez! Condescending much?!
            Not generally, but it's a tool I keep in the workshop. I find it appropriate as a response to entitlement.
            If we all searched for what we want to know through search engines, there would be no need for products to teach.
            Really?

            The basics are things you will need for a lot of tasks. Those are things you should be able to easily find and follow without having to pack them into every info-product ever produced.

            There are levels of learning. That's reality. You can rail about it all you like, but it won't change.
            You've questioned all your customers about this? You know that for a fact?
            One looks at ratios, Michael. How many people have intelligent complaints or questions about missing information? How many tell you about measurable results? What are the refund rates? How many buy other products later?

            I've had a bit more experience with this than you, I suspect. I don't claim to have perfect data (no-one does), but I've got just a bit of clue. And, unlike you, I don't assume I am representative of the market.

            Everything involves compromise. That's part of reality, too.

            Here's an example: I have a product that involves some fairly simple technical adjustments to a web page, and a whole lot of marketing techniques based on that adjustment. The sales copy is quite clear about the level of technical skill needed. I got a refund request from a woman a while back who informed me that it would be impossible for her to learn the technology involved.

            Impossible. Yeah. And she was downright indignant about it, since she also assumed that no-one else would either, unless they were some sort of techno-wizard.

            She thinks she's the market.

            Same mistake you're making.

            What's really funny about this is that the majority of WSOs are so cheap, and yet people expect them to contain full courses on the basic technical aspects of doing anything online. What do you suppose that would do to the prices of the products you buy?

            Ah, but then the complaints would start about people ripping newbies off by charging for basic technical info. As soon as you hit the second book that repeated all that info, you'd be one of those complaining about it.

            Grok?


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              The sales copy is quite clear about the level of technical skill needed.
              That sentence right there is something that is missing from a lot of WSOs. Perhaps if the author laid out that level of experience we need before purchasing their product, there would be no issue here.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Mike,That depends a great deal on what the process is. But the last sentence just dropped this whole objection into the crank pile for me.

        I am talking about their ethics in why they created the product. Was it to provide valuable information or just to make a quick buck?

        Since you are happy to throw stones at the ethics of others... Let me return the favor...

        When YOU create products, is it to provide valuable information or just to make a quick buck?!?

        Seriously dude...

        You should not ask questions like that when you are no better than those people whom you are quick to call "unethical"...

        Remember... You have sent me one of your products that you created, as a WSO, "for review"...

        So let me reiterate my original question:
        When you create products, is it to provide valuable information or just to make a quick buck?!?

        Given what I have seen of YOUR products, you are in it for the "quick buck"...

        When I tried to offer constructive criticism, you immediately dismissed that criticism on the basis that "those things did not matter."

        Honestly, I don't need you to answer my question for me...

        I know why you create products for sale -- to make a quick buck...

        So, why argue with Paul about whether you have a right to question the ethics of others, when deep down inside, you know that what you are doing is like the pot calling the kettle black!!

        If you cannot be bothered to create a better product, how dare you suggest that others, who create products, have no ethics.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          When I tried to offer constructive criticism, you immediately dismissed that criticism on the basis that "those things did not matter."
          Quote me! I dare you!
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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        Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

        As already mentioned, I shouldn't have to Google anything!
        Then you probably should never buy another product. I have customers that range from just learned how to turn a computer on to advanced knowledge. I had a prospective customer just ask me how much ongoing support I will provide for a $17 PLR Wordpress blog purchase. My response: None. Google Wordpress tutorials if you don't know how to operate a Wordpress blog ... and if you are not willing to Google tutorials for operating a Wordpress blog, then you really shouldn't be buying a Wordpress blog.

        In the ebooks I write, I give as much basic knowledge as possible, but again, if you can't fill in YOUR OWN BLANKS with research on Google, I really prefer that you buy someone else's products. I sell products that are both self serve and full support and the price difference for them is large. I don't want customers who buy a $17 product and then bombard me with over 50 emails asking questions that could easily be found in Google.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    I think you're expecting too much.

    Here's why:

    Most people offering WSOs are not teachers - and they do not have experience in training others so they don't know how bad their information is.

    Most people selling WSOs are only using the criteria "will this be useful to other people?". That's not necessarily a bad thing but they also may not realise what they are not spelling out because they either didn't think about it or never had a problem with that element themselves and didn't realise others would - or maybe they thought that people could find that stuff out using Google if they need to and didn't want to confuse their strategy by trying to cover every possible angle that someone could need help with.

    If you think that expecting you to have some knowledge or be able to use Google to get basic answers for yourself is too much - that is YOUR problem - not theirs.

    There are ALWAYS things which you could spend more time explaining if you expect your customers to be clueless about every aspect of what you're talking about. You can never please everyone.

    If you expect people to literally spoon-feed you every minute detail of every variation of everything they mention then you'll be disappointed. It's like saying that if you wanted to sell cosmetics you wouldn't be happy with your training unless the instructor covered the chemical compounds used in every product and gave you explicit detail about the sourcing of every ingredient and all possible alternative ways to manufacture the ingredients and describe in detail the machines that are used in every process along the way.

    It's not reasonable - and for most people not necessary.

    If it's really what you want - ask before you buy or you'll just end up constantly disappointed.
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    nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Dude - you should read your posts.

    You're complaining about sarcastic responses and being sarcastic and aggressive yourself - you're asking for the same back.

    I think you need to just accept that people are not living up to your expectations and either change them or lead by example and create products the way you think they should be - be the change you want to see.
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    nothing to see here.

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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      Dude - you should read your posts.

      You're complaining about sarcastic responses and being sarcastic and aggressive yourself - you're asking for the same back.

      I think you need to just accept that people are not living up to your expectations and either change them or lead by example and create products the way you think they should be - be the change you want to see.
      Realistic expectations need to be set here - after all, we're talking about inexpensive WSO products that typically retail in the $10-$30 range.

      There's no way you can reasonably expect products in this price range to be as truly comprehensive as what you're expecting. When I was in university, I regularly purchased textbooks over $150 that weren't anywhere near comprehensive, and I still had to look up additional reference books and buy additional material to supplement it.

      There's no way that any course selling in this price range can reasonably be expected to cover the subject material as thoroughly as you're hoping - you'd be buying 300+ page ebooks to truly cover the majority of the details (as Paul has mentioned above), and could you reasonably hope for something like that to sell at the ridiculously low prices we see here?

      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author alcymart
    You are having support issues. After buying, do you get real support? If not, as soon as you get stuck or don't understand something, you drop out and go for another one. Is that your case?

    Take care,

    Bernard St-Pierre
    Marketing Consultant
    Copywriter/Teacher
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  • Profile picture of the author tryinhere
    Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

    Please help me in this.

    I have bought a few WSO's since becoming a member and before then some IM products, but few have been written well enough for my liking. I don't know if I am expecting too much (I personally don't think I am), or are these products just plain rubbish or the product creator hasn't taken the time to make sure what they are selling is understandable to potential buyers?Please help me out guys.

    I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.
    low stress it buddy, it's probably just another "Wannabe Entrepreneur", and not worth twisting your undies over.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonmorgan
    but few have been written well enough for my liking.
    Any Joe Schmoe with $40 can release a WSO. Don't expect the same quality you'd get from something you pulled off the shelf at your local bookstore.

    Writing a technical manual or tutorial takes a little more talent than just slapping a few words together and hoping it makes sense.

    Based on some of the WSO's I've seen, the content wasn't necessarily bad but the work as a whole needed an editor to clean it up and shape it into something that was above Jr High English 101.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brad Gosse
    Mike I would say that perhaps you do expect too much.

    A $5-$47 WSO does not equal a college course. Sometimes you need to fill in your own blanks.

    Should the warrior forum provide instructions on how to connect to the internet and use a browser?
    Should shoes come with instructions on how to tie laces?
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      I also think the OP probably expects too much, or at least "too different".

      It's perhaps one of the subjects that doesn't lend itself particularly well to forum discussions, though, partly because of the often concealed confusion (and resulting conversation-at-cross-purposes) between "ethics" and "morals".

      To me, this issue always actually seems to be more about "responsibility" for one's own life and business. There seem to me, inevitably, to be broader issues involved, underlying the usually unspoken perceptions of discussion participants, such as (very loosely) the potential conflict between a "blame/criticism/fault" mentality and a "responsibility/independence" mentality. Which doesn't exactly make for "easy chat".

      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      I don't want customers who buy a $17 product and then bombard me with over 50 emails asking questions that could easily be found in Google.
      Exactly so. This ought to go without saying ...
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Mike -

        I do think you expect too much and are following the same arguments in this thread that you've followed in other threads.

        I know you are not so naive as to believe every WSO is created with the high intent of providing ultimate value to everyone from newbie to expert. You aren't seriously considering the comments from others in the thread but only finding arguments to rebut them.

        The assumptions you make are not logical to me - to assume everyone is interested in products aimed at newbies isn't correct. To think every WSO should be top quality is illogical. There are shoddy products in every market of any type - which is why buyers need to be aware and select cautiously.

        I agree with Paul about the "ethics" comments. This seems to be a fallback position for you that you bring to any complaint. A product may be useless or repetitive or poorly written or not well explained - none of those make the product or the seller unethical.

        Read your own arguments and the responses without the anger and defensiveness and we might get somewhere in the discussion.

        kay

        Edit: "I shouldn't have to Google anything!"

        That has the same unrealistic mindset of those who begin a thread with "I need $XXXX in 7 days - tell me how to do it". It's an expectation of sitting back and having knowledge fed to you exactly as you need it - when you need it. I've read your previous posts. You aren't stupid but comments like that one don't prove it.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jill Carpenter
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


          If every instructional product had to explain every basic little thing that was involved in using it, they'd all start at 738 pages long,
          Where is this 738 pages in plr style so that I can tack it into every product?
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          • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            Please help me in this.
            How?

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            I have bought a few WSO's since becoming a member and before then some IM products, but few have been written well enough for my liking.
            There are much better written books available at bookstores and at amazon.com. Those usually have professional editing. Most WSOs don't, but I agree they could use it.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            I don't know if I am expecting too much (I personally don't think I am), or are these products just plain rubbish or the product creator hasn't taken the time to make sure what they are selling is understandable to potential buyers?
            This is possible.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            When I buy a product or WSO I expect the author/creator to have written it in a way that even a newbie will be able to understand it and implement it the same day they take action on it. Is that too much to ask for consider the majority of IM product customers are newbies?
            Not all products are for newbies. To use a different example, consider the wide range of bicycles available. You can get one with training wheels for less than $50. You can get one that's made out of space-age materials and 50 gears for $5000. One is for beginners, one is for experts. There are a vast number of options in between. No one should ASSUME all users of your product are beginners, especially if it's not INTENDED to be a product for beginners.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            What about when you buy a product an in it you are told you need to do a specific task, but that task is not explained enough for you to be able to complete it.
            It depends. This could be a shortcoming in the reader, or in the product.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            Do you think that is due to error of the author/creator or am I simply expecting too much again? Should I be expected to go and buy further products to help me implement the tasks from the other product?
            It depends on whether this is made clear or not. Also it depends on how readily available the "missing" information is. For example, you can learn everything you need to know about Wordpress for free. I did. If I buy a guide about autoblogging or something that assumes I know Wordpress, I don't HAVE to go buy another guide. Sure there ARE other guides, but I can find that info for free elsewhere. Nothing to be mad about.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            I certainly don't think so, and if that is the case for the author/creator, I think their ethics need to come into question.
            So if you buy a product you don't like, you think the creator is unethical? How about when someone sells a product that they claim will make the reader a $10,000 monthly income, and then say that proof is unnecessary to back it up? Is that ethical?

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            I always believe that being successful in any business, you need to be able to help your buyers and well as provide suitable customer support.
            "Suitable" is the key word here. For a low-priced product, don't expect support. Just the same is if you bought a book in a bookstore, you don't get support. Software? OK, yes, then it needs support if it doesn't work.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            It's not all about the money as much as we need it.
            There is absolutely nothing wrong with being in business just for the money.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            I have not been in this business that long (6-8 months) and have not made a great deal of money, but as much as me and my family need it, I am happy to be able to help other people by providing them with solutions to their problems.
            If your family needs the money, you shouldn't spend your time giving away work you could get paid for. You owe it to them to earn a living from the skills you have. Yes, people need help. Give it first to the people who can afford to pay for it, and when your family has been provided for, offer help to others for free if you want to.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            Isn't that the way it's meant to be?
            Working for free is the opposite of business, so no.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            Please help me out guys. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.
            When you say "help you out" how do you mean? Are you just asking for agreement?

            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            The thing that turned your post into crank-bait for me is the attempt to make a practical issue of what is and is not necessary into an ethical judgment on the author.
            Amen.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            I am talking about their ethics in why they created the product. Was it to provide valuable information or just to make a quick buck?
            Those two things aren't part of an either/or proposition. I can do both in one product, or neither in the same product, or I can have one or the other.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            Assumption is very dangerous (may not be the right word, but all I can think at the moment). Have you considered that assumption in the part of the author is the reason why so many people fail in implementing the source material?
            No, it's because most people buy things they don't have the ability to understand, and may very well have been TOLD that a product wasn't FOR them. But they buy it anyway and then complain rather than do what it takes. Lack of action, proliferation of excuses. That's why so many people fail.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            I will use a fellow Warriors WSO here as an example of how I think a product should be written. CDarklock & winebuddy released a product a few days ago.
            That IS a good one.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            The pdf document is over 130 pages which Caliban wrote with very detailed, step-by-step actions that the reader needs to follow to reach the end goal. In my opinion, every product should follow his example.
            Wouldn't that be nice? If everything in the whole world was created to suit your own personal tastes and preferences?

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            The majority of people who buy these products are people who have only just found out about IM and want to make some quick money.
            I have no idea where you get this information from. The only person you're speaking for is you. And now you want to make some quick money, but it's unethical if the AUTHOR is just out to make a "quick buck"? They have to bend over backwards to help the READER do it, though. I don't know, it seems a little hypocritical there, Mike.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            If your product is not written with these people in mind, then how do you think they will be able to accomplish the goal?
            By buying a product that IS written for their level?

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            If your answer is "research", then I disagree. The point of a product is to teach! Not in part, but in whole!
            You can decide the point of your own products, but there are many perfectly valid reasons to create and sell products WITHOUT wanting to teach in whole.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            What's the point of doing it half-arsed? Do it right or don't do it at all in my opinion.
            This would carry a lot more weight if you did what you demand of others.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            Bollocks! If the product was written well enough, people with advanced knowledge would know where to skip and continue where needed.
            This is quite silly. If I'm advanced in a subject, I don't want a huge book full of things I already know however easy it is to skip.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            As already mentioned, I shouldn't have to Google anything!
            Maybe you should look into doing something besides Internet Marketing as a hobby. Using Google to research things is a daily use kind of skill.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            Why is it the responsibility of the buyer to check the level of knowledge they need before buying?
            If you go to the auto part store and pick an item and bring it to the register, is it the clerk's job to make sure you're buying the correct part for the automobile you own? No, it's the BUYER'S job to make intelligent purchasing decisions. It's a free country, people have the right to spend their money on what they want. I think it's better of me to assume they aren't just randomly choosing things they hope they will like.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            That's what the sales copy is for! It should be made clear to save any confusion and possibly any refunds.
            Sales copy is for selling. That's why they call it that. I agree it should be clear. The WSO forum is sort of unique in that we can ask questions of the seller, and if they don't answer to our satisfaction, we don't have to buy. Lack of clarity in the sales copy is a good reason not to purchase something, not to complain after you buy it.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            This has nothing to do with ethics, but in some circumstances they have to come into question.
            This sentence makes no sense at all. It has nothing to do with ethics except sometimes it does?

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            Do you think everyone is in IM to help others? God no! There are some that are only concerned with making and don't give a damn about how they go about it!
            Wanting to make money as a marketer is perfectly fine. Just because you want to get paid doesn't say anything at all about the degree to which you care about others.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            You can't possibly say that every member here who has ever released a WSO has been created purely to educate!
            That's not the only reason to make a product.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            How are mean to know without first purchasing the product?! There are so many things a product owner will not disclose before you make a payment, so unless you are hiding a crystal ball that you aren't sharing with us, then how are we meant to know something until we have read it?
            Ask before buying, and if you don't get an answer, don't buy. Pretty simple.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            Geez! Condescending much?! I'm not trying to make it an ethical/moral issue, but some times you have to question the authors motives as already stated.
            Here's that nonsense sentence again. If you aren't trying to make it an issue of ethics, you probably shouldn't use the word in your post. And if it's not, you can't continue the VERY SAME SENTENCE with how sometimes, it is. Either it is, or it isn't.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            If we all searched for what we want to know through search engines, there would be no need for products to teach.
            This is a strange statement to make. I'm not sure I understand it.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            The reason why we buy these products is because we are too damn lazy to do it ourselves and it also saves us time.
            So here we get down to it. You're lazy, so I have to make my product even easier for you. No thanks. Seems like you're ungrateful, too. I'll just have customers who WANT to achieve things with my help.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            Here I am thinking that is one of the points in creating a product. Wow, I must have been wrong all this time!
            I mean, you can make a product for whatever reason and purpose you like. But if others have different reasons, it doesn't make them "wrong" any more than you're wrong here.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            You've questioned all your customers about this? You know that for a fact? Just because you haven't gotten any negative feedback (not saying you should be), doesn't mean there have been people unhappy with your product. A lot of people will just get discouraged and give up. Is that how it's supposed to be now?
            Usually, lack of negative feedback is a decent indicator that you've made a good product. Displeased people are WAY more vocal than pleased ones. Pleased ones happily and quietly enjoy their products and carry on.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            If it helps the buyer, why the hell not?!
            Why not just give them a bunch of money along with the product? It will help them, so why WOULDN'T I?

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            I don't expect everything to be handed to me on a silver platter,
            Hmm. Really?

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            but I expect every product to be understandable by everyone who reads it. Newbies, Guru's, and everyone in between.
            Gurus can understand products for newbies, they're just not very useful to them. But the reverse isn't true, nor should it be.

            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            You really think that is too much to ask for? Not in my opinion.
            Yeah, my opinion is different than yours. Which is perfectly fine. I won't question your ethics over it or anything, lol.
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