Open letter: Don't you feel ashamed of yourself?

295 replies
For those that don't know me well I've been dealing with IM since 1997.

During the last 12 months (or more...) I see a kind of marketing I do not
like at all. I also do not like those that use it. Somehow we have never
breathing the same air anyway, hence they just prove their "value."

I see the same trend based on this marketing here, in the WSOs too.
I understand that Allen should treat cases in a diplomatic way some times
and that's perfectly OK. After all, this forum is his business. I had never been good in politics though and thankfully I can speak up when I want/

The MAIN reason I post this here is because Internet and this forum too
attracts new comers every day. In the beginning I preferred not to mention
anything because I was hoping it'd be a temporary mentality glitch.
It seems it has become a permanent brain dysfunction that is fed by
the easy profits, from the money pumped mostly by new comers,
or of those that lack of knowledge or guidance or common logic.

So... what am I talking about?

I am talking about the kind of products that use a specific and
similar sales page where the product is NOT described, spreading
a mystery about what it does, what is it, etc... and at the same
time underlining that

* no experience is needed
* no html knowledge is needed
* no work is needed
....* nothing is needed at all...

...and

...it's not adsense
...it's not PPC
...it's not CPA
...it's not this
...it's not that
...it's nothing you have ever seen....

(isn't a new product something anyone has never seen anyway???)

The sales letter of that kind of product/s continues with screenshots
of CB accounts... Although I did a search and there are solutions online
that allow you to present fake results of Paypal, Clickbank, Adsense,
I want to believe those profits reported are legitimate.
I do not doubt the profits.
I doubt

- that kind of copy writing
- that kind of product that promises the heaven
- that kind of ambiguous money and soul sucking marketing

To my surprise, that kind of marketing has affected many best "families"
of IMers too. I can hardly believe in what I am reading in messages
sent by "friends."

Hence I'd like to give a shout here, hoping that some people
will get a flash in their brain and help others to avoid this
kind of marketing... and loop the helping cycle too.

My question to those IMers is:

"Don't you feel ashamed of yourself?"

* How can you display checks of $1000s of dollars with the
allegation that THAT specific product (without any clue of
its identity on the sales letter anyway) sent you that money,
when the truth is that money came to you because of your
hard work OVERALL and throughout these years
???

* Why do you undervalue yourself so much by saying
you owe your success to product X or product Y you
currently sell... when you...JUST CREATED that product???
And why do you underestimate the value of people online?

* How frustrated should one be to behave the way you do,
forgetting how you started online... the time when all
what you needed was the TRUTH for what works and what not?

* How sick your mind is for seeking the money only and
not giving a penny about what happens after the sale,
leaving people trapped by your suggestions, wasting
their time by forcing them to watch step by step videos
for a product you did not use for creating your overall fortune?
And also, how sick "business family" is for supporting you
when spreading illusions to people's brain?

* How do you sleep well at nights, knowing that there
are people that gave you their last money, because they
believed in your promises? OK... you may say "buyers
deserve that fate since they believed in instant profits"

but it was YOU insisting "they'd make it the same way
you did it..."
NOT through the hard work but through
your magic nasty product.

* Why on Earth aren't you sincere and just tell people
what does the product do, and how those actions can
benefit their PATH TO SUCCESS, instead of pointing
them to heaven when you're actually lead them to
their personal hell making them feeling incapable
for not generating the results you promised?


And lastly...

* Are you so naive to believe you'll escape from the
delivery of a fair similar payment that will eventually and
without no doubt will be treated to you or to people you love
by Universe's cause and effect bug-free harmonic system?

And how do you feel about that?


I really need no answer of course.

I'd share part of the responsibility if that kind
of marketing affected more people. At least, I feel
I made a tiny effort here by speaking up.

Hopefully my thread won't be deleted.

John
#ashamed #feel #letter #open
  • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
    Some products can be summed up in three or four sentences and the product developer knows it. Sometimes, the training is so simple that the mere mention of what the topic would make light bulbs go off. Other times, the training deals with a method that can easily be found with a simple Google search, so the creator chooses not to mention it.

    I am not condoning these advertising tactics, I am merely stating some reasons why people skirt around what the course is actually about.
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    • Profile picture of the author apoorv.parijat
      * How do you sleep well at nights, knowing that there
      are people that gave you their last money, because they
      believed in your promises? OK... you may say "buyers
      deserve that fate since they believed in instant profits"
      but it was YOU insisting "they'd make it the same way
      you did it..." NOT through the hard work but through
      your magic nasty product.
      This is so, so true! I don't buy into blind sales pages but I've seen some of these sellers' attitude to their customers right here in the forum (IM Ratings forum where sometimes the sellers sometimes respond). It's shocking to say the least. The thing you mentioned is an easy, and the most commonly used cop out. However, it doesn't make any sense at all.
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      • Profile picture of the author Brandon Tanner
        I'm not a fan of "blind copy" at all and would never purchase a product without first knowing what it was about. But apparently a lot of people are so desperate that they don't mind doing exactly that.

        But you are right about the massive shift that's been taking place in internet marketing over the past few years. Almost makes me want to create a directory that lists ONLY the product creators that...

        1) Have quality products

        2) Don't use "blind copy"

        3) Actually provide customer support for their products

        That would filter out about 95% of the products out there.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          If the product is good it will cover more than what a simple Google search will give you.
          Mike - you are missing the point. You are so determined to find "lies marketers tell" you don't realize if the product is good, there's no need to use blind copy.

          It's done for the reasons Brian listed above. The offer is for a method so shallow or narrow that even mentioning what it IS gives it away.

          No one is lying - they are just not telling you what they are selling. Why do people buy these products?

          1. It tells them they don't need to learn all the things they don't know

          2. It allows them to imagine what this "secret" might be - and they imagine based on what they want it to be

          If a seller doesn't tell me what he's selling - I'm not buying. That's the best way to look at such "sales" pages.

          kay
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          • Profile picture of the author pappyy3
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            Mike - you are missing the point. You are so determined to find "lies marketers tell" you don't realize if the product is good, there's no need to use blind copy.

            It's done for the reasons Brian listed above. The offer is for a method so shallow or narrow that even mentioning what it IS gives it away.

            No one is lying - they are just not telling you what they are selling. Why do people buy these products?

            1. It tells them they don't need to learn all the things they don't know

            2. It allows them to imagine what this "secret" might be - and they imagine based on what they want it to be

            If a seller doesn't tell me what he's selling - I'm not buying. That's the best way to look at such "sales" pages.

            kay
            You should also mention that Sometimes, the sellers use blind copy because the product actually is rehashed CRAP!

            Please don't
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        • Profile picture of the author suemax
          Go for it, Brandon - you would provide SUCH a useful resource, especially for newbies. Since someone hit upon the idea of so-called "review sites" to attract traffic to an offer, there are few if any reviews out there which give an unbiased view, so "reviews" are devalued. Only an eBay-style "feedback score" would work.....
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        • Profile picture of the author Christina Osorio
          Brandon if you published such a directory I would happily pay for it. Or better if you set up a site and maintain it I would pay a monthly fee. It is well worth it and increases the integrity of the entire community.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Folks, could we tone the rhetoric down a bit, please?

            Robert... It's been a very long time since I've seen anyone call Roger a troll, and I don't think I've ever seen Patrick tagged with that one. A bit zealous in a good cause, perhaps, but a troll?

            If you folks realized just how close you are to agreement, you'd find this as funny as I do.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Folks, could we tone the rhetoric down a bit, please?

              Robert... It's been a very long time since I've seen anyone call Roger a troll, and I don't think I've ever seen Patrick tagged with that one. A bit zealous in a good cause, perhaps, but a troll?

              If you folks realized just how close you are to agreement, you'd find this as funny as I do.


              Paul
              I dont find much humour in this at all, i find it akin to the spanish inquisition following one witch master general.

              The droids aren't the good guys here they are the bad guys

              Still i'm done anyway i made my case and proud to be associated with everything i said

              back to the bar
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            • Profile picture of the author Jack Zenert
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Folks, could we tone the rhetoric down a bit, please?

              Robert... It's been a very long time since I've seen anyone call Roger a troll, and I don't think I've ever seen Patrick tagged with that one. A bit zealous in a good cause, perhaps, but a troll?

              If you folks realized just how close you are to agreement, you'd find this as funny as I do.


              Paul
              Too True Paul!!

              But what a debating lesson this has turned out to be.
              Jack
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
    Amen to that!

    Originally Posted by E. Brian Rose View Post

    Some products can be summed up in three or four sentences and the product developer knows it. Sometimes, the training is so simple that the mere mention of what the topic would make light bulbs go off. Other times, the training deals with a method that can easily be found with a simple Google search, so the creator chooses not to mention it.

    I am not condoning these advertising tactics, I am merely stating some reasons why people skirt around what the course is actually about.
    No matter how you "skirt around" it, lies are being let loose because there is no simple truth in the sales copies. So what if "the training deals with a method that can easily be found with a simple Google search"? If the product is good it will cover more than what a simple Google search will give you.
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    • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
      Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

      Amen to that!



      No matter how you "skirt around" it, lies are being let loose because there is no simple truth in the sales copies. So what if "the training deals with a method that can easily be found with a simple Google search"? If the product is good it will cover more than what a simple Google search will give you.
      I agree with you 100%. I was merely pointing out the thought process that goes through the minds of these marketers.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
        * Are you so naive to believe you'll escape from the
        delivery of a fair similar payment that will eventually and
        without no doubt will be treated to you or to people you love
        by Universe's cause and effect bug-free harmonic system?

        And how do you feel about that?
        I am not sure so much naive, as they think their lives are made of little boxes which are separate from each other. Like their business life has nothing to do with their personal life.

        As if things they do in their business which hurt others are not going to have consequences in the other parts of their lives.

        I see this kind of thing happen often, folks who promote all kinds of "junky, stealing other people's work" products get kicked in the teeth in other parts of their lives, and never put the two things together.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brad Spencer
    John,

    I have a perfect solution for this...and it keeps the benefit of mystery (intrigue, protection of ideas, etc) without being dishonest...

    I have used screen shots of mindmaps where I illustrate a topic visually while talking about it...and for the sales copy I'll black out the "secret site" but then give away the solution.

    It's not blind since I give them the method (sort of) but don't tell people where it is to get it. I also elaborate a LOT inside the product so that people know that when I use these tactics that I give it ALL inside...so it gets them interested with the mystery but isn't lying.

    Lying sucks...I'm an Eagle Scout and the first thing the Boy Scout Law says is "A Scout Is Trustworthy"

    Plus...income promises are a no-no because why am I so arrogant to assume that you can do what I do without knowing your background and skills?

    Great addition to the forum buddy!

    Best wishes in 2011,

    Brad
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron Douglas
    I think it's a desperate sign of the times. I think there are 5 factors (IMHO):

    1) These marketers have based much of their entire business around launching new products.

    2) They aren't making as much as they used to with product launches because much of Main Street is still struggling and/or unemployed. Revenue is way down but expenses have not dropped in proportion.

    3) They're under pressure from affiliates and JV partners to put out products that convert well.

    4) They see other marketers do the same thing and get good results.

    5) They find a way to put the blame on the customers saying "we're only selling what people want to buy, therefore it's good marketing."

    Their actions make me really appreciate having steady profits in niche markets outside of the MMO space.
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    • Profile picture of the author BrandonLee
      I agree with you that the product launch model is going to change, at least in some of the markets like IM where it's getting worn out (in others like the stock market (though it is getting worn out in forex), real estate, dating etc it's still great), the guys putting out the blind copy launches are far from desperate.
      These launches are making more money then ever before and paying for new lambo's for the owners. They are making more then the "top echlon" guys like Kern, Walker etc report making. Will it last, no I don't think so, but right now they are cleaning up like never before. It kinda reminds me of the stock market in late 1999 or the real estate market around 2005.


      Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

      I think it's a desperate sign of the times. I think there are 5 factors (IMHO):

      1) These marketers have based much of their entire business around launching new products.

      2) They aren't making as much as they used to with product launches because much of Main Street is still struggling and/or unemployed. Revenue is way down but expenses have not dropped in proportion.

      3) They're under pressure from affiliates and JV partners to put out products that convert well.

      4) They see other marketers do the same thing and get good results.

      5) They find a way to put the blame on the customers saying "we're only selling what people want to buy, therefore it's good marketing."

      Their actions make me really appreciate having steady profits in niche markets outside of the MMO space.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan Sorensen
    Don't we all use some blind copy in the form of curiosity to sell our information products?

    Even if you tell people your product is on "link building" or "selling products" etc, and list off all the benefits they'll get by buying it, you aren't going to reveal your strategies of getting those benefits in the sales copy.

    Otherwise you would destroy your selling position, right?

    People buy the promise of the desired result of your product. So where do we draw the line on transparency in our sales copy?
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  • Profile picture of the author J.M.Wilson
    What an excellent post. It seems nowadays that the solid products, the one's which provide real value but don't offer an immediate "40,453.23 profit" are being pushed out by the over hyped, vague, pumped up products that deliver nothing but hype.

    It's a shame but I guess it's merely the laws of supply and demand taking hold.
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    • Profile picture of the author wolfmmiii
      Originally Posted by J.M.Wilson View Post

      What an excellent post. It seems nowadays that the solid products, the one's which provide real value but don't offer an immediate "40,453.23 profit" are being pushed out by the over hyped, vague, pumped up products that deliver nothing but hype.

      It's a shame but I guess it's merely the laws of supply and demand taking hold.
      I've often considered releasing a WSO that discusses how I earn upwards of $1k/month with as little as 60 minutes of work/per day. However, this exact statement is what prevents me from releasing such a WSO.

      The demand for products that require any amount of work or products that do not claim to earn $1,000s per week just doesn't seem to be as strong.
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      • Profile picture of the author The Bad Blogger
        Seriously, that's what this world marketing and business is all about, when there is up, there always had a down, I hate it too, but what can we really do, I mean... people are always selfish, they doesn't care as long as they enjoy they don't feel ashamed...
        I'm selfish too, I mean, I wanted to really help but at times I just want what I really want, so I doesn't care if it hurts someone... I'm not a god, I need to eat and I do need to enjoy... this is what life is all about... up and down... we just sometime can't control our life....
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        • Profile picture of the author David Louis Monk
          I am guilty of falling for the dream and buying into some of these products. At least now with Clickbank you can claim your money back quite easily.

          I do not purposely buy with a view to claiming back but if an Imer promotes one of these products without telling me what it is I have the option to get a refund if I have bought it already or it is so similar to another product bought.

          This trend will continue allbeit people are wising up and the demand will fall.

          The new trend that has sprung up and which will take over is that of "giving something away for free" Get the punter to get to know, trust and like you by giving away something for free. It would appear that some marketers are giving everything they ever sold before and probably includes some of the shameful products sold in the past but hey-ho if they are pretty useless products then you can afford to give them away for free. You do not want your new sign ups using them as you want them to buy your latest product and forget that rubbish.You only need them as a hook to pull in someone to be a customer for your next product.

          Punters will wise up about being sold the dream to find the dream is only that. Some of the better Imers now concentrate on giving you results,; getting you to to achieve results. I do not want to see other people's clickbank accounts, I want to see sales in my Clickbank account and I would like proof I can get results. Again with Clickbank and 60-day guarantees you either get results in that period of time or you ask for a refund which you are entitled to do because you did not achieve anything like the result claimed.
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        • Profile picture of the author FredJones
          Goodness.... Did you mean this?

          Originally Posted by The Bad Blogger View Post

          Seriously, that's what this world marketing and business is all about, when there is up, there always had a down, I hate it too, but what can we really do, I mean... people are always selfish, they doesn't care as long as they enjoy they don't feel ashamed...
          I'm selfish too, I mean, I wanted to really help but at times I just want what I really want, so I doesn't care if it hurts someone... I'm not a god, I need to eat and I do need to enjoy... this is what life is all about... up and down... we just sometime can't control our life....
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          • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
            Banned
            I have no problem with blind copy sales letters. If you don't want to describe the product in detail, that's up to you. The customer gets to choose whether that's good enough for them or not. If it is, they'll buy it. If it isn't, they won't. There is nothing disingenuous or misleading there, as long as the "what it's not" list is accurate. If a customer chooses to buy something without knowing what it is, that's on them. Likewise, if the seller wants to cut his sales by not revealing what he's selling, that's on him.

            Lying, on the other hand, is different. Fake screenshots, misleading copy, saying you earned xyz with said product when you didn't, etc, are ALL unacceptable.
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  • Profile picture of the author Don Schenk
    Originally Posted by John Delavera View Post

    So... what am I talking about?

    I am talking about the kind of products that use a specific and
    similar sales page where the product is NOT described, spreading
    a mystery about what it does, what is it, etc... and at the same
    time underlining that
    The blind Ad, it is not a new way to sell. Joe Karbo popularized the blind Ad in the early 1970s with a full-page newspaper Ad for his "Lazy Man's Way To Riches" book. He didn't tell what was in the book, but he would guarantee it, and hold your check for 30 days before cashing the check in case you wanted a refund. The book was $10, which in today's money would be about $50.

    Over the next 10 years, Joe sold a couple hundred thousand copies of his book with that blind Ad. The crazy thing is, he didn't have any back-end products to sell to his book buyers, and never thought to go back to his buyers with other offers. Duh!

    I remember first reading his ad in 1975. (I can remember the year by the house we were living in at the time.) I just pulled out my copy of his book, and looked at the copyright date - 1973.

    It is actually a well written book, and it started many people on the path to direct marketing.

    His blind Ad was soon followed by a plethra of copycat, full page, blind Ads in magazines (especially the biz-op magazines), and newspapers and direct mail.

    John, it's nothing new. Now, maybe more people selling online are starting to use blind ads.

    :-Don
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim_Carter
    Whatsa matter?

    You don't like the how to make $2000 per hour with no effort WSO's and Clickbank products either?

    Too bad so many fall for it, then rave about it before trying it and perpetuate the problem. There used to be good products on here. Now they are few and far between.
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    • Profile picture of the author FredJones
      I agree with the OP to a very good extent.

      But there are weird buyers too, and that's what keeps the ball rolling even for substandard products.

      And then there are other interesting buyers who ... well ... seem to throw away their money for no reason.

      For example, with a service that I am running now, I am literally trying to hunt two customers who paid their amount and did not send me their order details - I have mailed each of them at least 4 times.

      What kind of buyers do you call them?

      My impression is what buyers need to buy brains and sense or else sellers will keep selling thin air since it sells, fair or unfair.
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Tim_Carter View Post

      Whatsa matter?

      You don't like the how to make $2000 per hour with no effort WSO's and Clickbank products either?

      Too bad so many fall for it, then rave about it before trying it and perpetuate the problem. There used to be good products on here. Now they are few and far between.
      Where can I find one of these products?
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    I don't see a problem w/ blind copy if it's honest or how anyone can complain about it.

    Maybe I just don't get it.
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    • Profile picture of the author rickfrazier1
      Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

      I don't see a problem w/ blind copy if it's honest or how anyone can complain about it.

      Maybe I just don't get it.
      Well, perhaps the problem is that with much of the blind copy, it isn't honest.

      I haven't bought very many things from blind copy, and perhaps I chose unwisely, but every product I purchased blind failed to meet several of the claims of the copy. When the copy states "no cpa, no video, no paid traffic" then the whole point of the product is to vaguely describe producing television commercials (which are video, and you do pay for),
      I don't call that honest copy. I suppose this and similar product to ad copy mis-matches have made me even more sensitive to examining anything that even remotely appears to be blind copy with a critical eye.

      Having some mystery or intrigue can help generate sales, and certainly has it's place. However there is a point where going overboard does everyone a disservice, and I'm afraid many, if not most, of the splashy blind copy has more than gone overboard...

      I don't even want to begin with the whole "proof" thing about income claims.

      I'm hoping it will run its course and would like to see us return to a better, more sane type of advertising. My fear is that if it doesn't burn itself out, some do-gooder out there will get the lawyers involved or somehow drive legislation to make it difficult to place even regular advertising...
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  • Profile picture of the author drmani
    Originally Posted by John Delavera View Post

    So... what am I talking about?

    I am talking about the kind of products that use a specific and
    similar sales page where the product is NOT described, spreading
    a mystery about what it does, what is it, etc...

    John
    The first time I heard it (right here on this forum, on a discussion
    about conversion rates), I was floored.

    The concept was that if your conversion rates are HIGH, you're not
    selling hard enough.

    The 'logic' was that, if you were reaching a wide enough audience,
    definitely some of them will NOT be a right fit for what you sell -
    and WILL refund. (That's what a guarantee is for, they claimed!)

    So, if your return rate isn't high, it means you've NOT saturated
    the pool of warmer prospects.

    That sounded spurious logic back then, and hasn't changed my way
    of thinking about online selling in any way since. Now, I realize
    that the flaw in that line of reasoning is that you have NO WAY
    to know if you've reached ALL your qualified prospects, no matter
    how aggressively you market yourself... or that the less qualified
    will start to respond only after you've reached all the better
    quality prospects.

    Maybe - and I'm not saying it is, but maybe - that reasoning is
    what guides this flurry of 'blind ad' selling.

    The seller(s) probably reason it out with:

    "High return rates? Don't worry about it. It means you're
    selling hard. Others aren't!"

    And the (sad?) truth is that a fair share of these sales do
    'stick'... thanks to mind-control marketing that projects
    refunders as 'scum', 'cheats', 'thieves' and worse!

    You can't have it both ways - "blind copy selling" AND
    "if you refund, you're BAD!"

    Don't tell me what you're selling, if you like - but don't be
    surprised when I refund it because it isn't what I wanted!

    All success
    Dr.Mani
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by drmani View Post

      The first time I heard it (right here on this forum, on a discussion
      about conversion rates), I was floored.

      The concept was that if your conversion rates are HIGH, you're not
      selling hard enough.

      The 'logic' was that, if you were reaching a wide enough audience,
      definitely some of them will NOT be a right fit for what you sell -
      and WILL refund. (That's what a guarantee is for, they claimed!)

      So, if your return rate isn't high, it means you've NOT saturated
      the pool of warmer prospects.

      That sounded spurious logic back then, and hasn't changed my way
      of thinking about online selling in any way since. Now, I realize
      that the flaw in that line of reasoning is that you have NO WAY
      to know if you've reached ALL your qualified prospects, no matter
      how aggressively you market yourself... or that the less qualified
      will start to respond only after you've reached all the better
      quality prospects.

      Maybe - and I'm not saying it is, but maybe - that reasoning is
      what guides this flurry of 'blind ad' selling.

      The seller(s) probably reason it out with:

      "High return rates? Don't worry about it. It means you're
      selling hard. Others aren't!"

      And the (sad?) truth is that a fair share of these sales do
      'stick'... thanks to mind-control marketing that projects
      refunders as 'scum', 'cheats', 'thieves' and worse!

      You can't have it both ways - "blind copy selling" AND
      "if you refund, you're BAD!"

      Don't tell me what you're selling, if you like - but don't be
      surprised when I refund it because it isn't what I wanted!

      All success
      Dr.Mani
      I'm still shocked by the mindset of these marketers to this day. It goes something along the lines of this - if I'm not selling hard enough and marketing this aggressively to the point where I'm getting x% of refunds, then I'm not marketing this properly.

      I fail to see the logic in this, but it appears like their mindset is to squeeze every last sale out of their product launch with no regard for refunds, because what ultimately matters to them is how much profit they can extract from the market.
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  • Profile picture of the author jeehaa
    I agree with the OP. This is why I stay away form the IM-niche because so many products and offers are genuine crap and old news. I admit that I fall for the blind copies every now and then, specifically if there are testimonials and reviews from 'trustworthy' people and more often than not is an old idea with new words.

    This isn't a problem in the IM-niche alone but it's here that you have to have those bold claims to make anybody click that 'Checkout!' button.
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  • Profile picture of the author lonicera
    I completely agree with John!
    I am subscribed to several IM lists, and some of them are respected marketers, brand names in the IM community, however, too often I receive promotional emails from them for those exact products.
    Then, when I come over to the IM product reviews thread, I see a lot of pissed warriors who are sick and tired of those fake earning proofs, hyped sales letters and blind copies.
    No wonder so many new, as well as seasoned marketers are starting to lose faith in IM.
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    • Profile picture of the author Vogin
      What about writing a product describing these exact problems of blind copy and warning people so they wouldn't so easily be dragged in all that hype?

      Launch it as a WSO maybe and raise some money to keep it on the top for a longer period of time?
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    There's certain times I wish we could name names on this forum. Ah well, will just have to bite my tongue. Obviously I totally agree with this thread. But don't worry, people always get what's coming to them. Karma is a real bitch.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      There's certain times I wish we could name names on this forum. Ah well, will just have to bite my tongue. Obviously I totally agree with this thread. But don't worry, people always get what's coming to them. Karma is a real bitch.
      I couldn't agree more. They may not see the effects of their dastardly actions over the short-term, but this "quick/maximum profit" mentality could come back and really bite them hard later on down the road.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      There's certain times I wish we could name names on this forum.
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      Karma is a real bitch.
      You are not supposed to name her.



      Harvey
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  • Profile picture of the author Orator
    Forgive me if I'm less than shocked about this. The fact is that Internet Marketing is a business, and that means people are in it to make money. Along the way do you get to help people? Sure, but for a lot of people it's simply about the money.

    Everyone of us has our own ethical code for which we have to abide. Some people feel comfortable with a blind copy, and others don't. Should I feel guilty because I'm an affiliate for an addiction niche. It could be argued that I'm playing on the emotional vulnerability of people to sell clickbank products.

    Does that make me a bad person?

    What about the copyrighter who has a good understanding if the human psyche, and knows just the right words to say? Where exactly is this golden ethical line to be drawn?

    I understand what you're saying, and in an abstract way I do agree. In a perfect world, but this world is far from perfect. I don't believe in karma, but I do believe in being able to look at myself in the mirror everyday. So I guess that's going to have to be the standard for which I judge my IM actions.

    For others? Who knows.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Originally Posted by Orator View Post

      Forgive me if I'm less than shocked about this. The fact is that Internet Marketing is a business, and that means people are in it to make money. Along the way do you get to help people? Sure, but for a lot of people it's simply about the money.

      Everyone of us has our own ethical code for which we have to abide. Some people feel comfortable with a blind copy, and others don't. Should I feel guilty because I'm an affiliate for an addiction niche. It could be argued that I'm playing on the emotional vulnerability of people to sell clickbank products.

      Does that make me a bad person?

      What about the copyrighter who has a good understanding if the human psyche, and knows just the right words to say? Where exactly is this golden ethical line to be drawn?

      I understand what you're saying, and in an abstract what I do agree. In a perfect world, but this world is far from perfect. I don't believe in karma, but I do believe in being able to look at myself in the mirror everyday. So I guess that' going to have to be the standard for which I judge my IM actions.

      For others? Who knows.
      This is a brilliant counter-argument you make.

      I have never believed screen shots anyway simply because they may be real, but they do not show how much money was invested to generate the results.
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    • Profile picture of the author juicegraphic
      I just agree with this..How can you earn money if you don't market your products?.
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  • Profile picture of the author Adie
    Not only here in WF but also in Clickbank. I don't understand why useless products topped CBengine... Is CBengine manipulated?
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    Moderator's Note: You're only allowed to put your own products or sites in your signature.

    Signature edited.
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  • Profile picture of the author Igor Kheifets
    I don't see a reason for this rant...

    It's a classic copywriting technique which Dan Kennedy calls:

    "What This Is Not..."

    There's also similar stuff such as: "Who This Is For" and "Who This Isn't For..."

    So, you should be mad about the copywriters, not the
    people who try to imitate or copy off these guys...

    Is this tactic annoying? You bet... But it peaks so much
    curiosity that it's just impossible NOT TO check the product out.

    Igor
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    • Profile picture of the author WillR
      Originally Posted by igorhelpsyousucceed View Post

      I don't see a reason for this rant...

      It's a classic copywriting technique which Dan Kennedy calls:

      So, you should be mad about the copywriters, not the
      people who try to imitate or copy off these guys...
      Ummm, NO!! I'm sure if you asked Dan Kennedy, one of his most popular copywriting techniques would NOT be lying. These are blatant lies and claims made that are just untrue - this is not copywriting, this is lying.

      As for putting the blame on the copywriter, that doesn't cut it. The person to blame is the person who came up with the idea for the product and the person who is happy to take other people's money in return for the 'product'.
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  • Profile picture of the author PatriciaJ
    What I find the tackiest is 'proof of earnings'. That to me is the worst kind of marketing and misleading. It isn't what somebody else has earned that is important, it is what you will earn and nobody can predict that. I wouldn't buy from anybody who displays them on principal and always advise newcomers to steer clear.
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  • Profile picture of the author Richnana
    I recently discovered there there is actually a program online where you can buy the rights to these types of program. They roll them out for you 2 at a time every month. The flashy graphics, the "blind copy" that leads the blind to their wallets. They also fake the screenshots. But, thanks for the Warrior forum because just about the time they have me in their grasp... I take the time to come over and do a search to find out whether it is any good or not. It has saved me a lot of money and time.
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    • Profile picture of the author lonicera
      I believe there are many ways how you can create interest in your product or service by telling EXACTLY what it is and how it will help you, without any earning proofs or mystery around it.

      I'm not annoyed that much with blind copy, what bothers me most is lying.
      They fake the screenshots and publish them as if they are true! Isn't this illegal?
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      • Profile picture of the author Orator
        Originally Posted by lonicera View Post

        I believe there are many ways how you can create interest in your product or service by telling EXACTLY what it is and how it will help you, without any earning proofs or mystery around it.

        I'm not annoyed that much with blind copy, what bothers me most is lying.
        They fake the screenshots and publish them as if they are true! Isn't this illegal?
        Unethical? No doubt.

        Illegal? I suppose it depends on local laws in theory.

        Enforceable? Nope.
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      • Profile picture of the author markowe
        Originally Posted by lonicera View Post

        I believe there are many ways how you can create interest in your product or service by telling EXACTLY what it is and how it will help you, without any earning proofs or mystery around it.
        That is very true. In fact you can actually TELL them the method, describe it in great detail, lay it all out for them, and they'll still buy it in their droves! Think of the Xfactor and Clickbump threads! It's like people get all the facts but are still convinced there is some 'secret' (oh, must be the old magic bullet), lurking somewhere hidden...

        But ethics in IM - well, we've only scratched the surface. I keep meaning to wax indignant about the whole CPA industry, but we'll leave that for another thread...
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Of course they don't feel ashamed - they're not doing this stuff by accident.

    There are a LOT of people who see IM as a "do whatever you need to in order to make money" activity rather than a business that involves real people and needs responsible effort.

    It's the same in the real world but hiding behind the anonymity the internet provides means that people who could never convince a real person that they're genuine can BS and fake their way to it online.

    I always found that my coaching clients had been ripped off by others (some very well known) before they came to me. When I took them to my house and didn't watch the clock to end our sessions they couldn't believe it since all of their previous experiences with people offering coaching had been very impersonal and sometimes just disguised sales pitches.

    So even when we're not just talking about selling a random info-product to generic IMers, people offering help often are just hiding a sales process they hope to be as impersonal as possible.

    I really feel for people starting from scratch now because while there's a lot more information around and many more tools than 10 years ago - there's also a huge number more BSers and fakers trying to sell themselves as experts by selling stuff that's available for free all over the internet. I could understand if they had been successful and were genuinely intent on passing on that fortune, but it's usually not the case and the entire focus is on how to get people to buy - anything.

    The problem with many of the WSOs is that the person selling it KNOWS that it's nothing new but they still want their piece of the newbies wallet and they KNOW if they say what they're offering people will realise it's been said before for free.

    I see this all the time and have done for years. I've said stuff here about what has worked for me and then seen it offered as a WSO and people even raving about how good it is and giving testimonials because they never looked anywhere for it and just figured if someone is selling it then it must be new, or at least not freely available.

    I guess there are a lot of ways you can look at these things and some people will always say "if they didn't know where to get it then I did them a favour by selling it to them", although I answer to that is - "you could've just told them where to get it free rather than sell them a reworded version just because you knew they wouldn't realise".

    I've stopped looking at this stuff now because it happens so much it makes me sick and you can't stop it, so I just ignore it.

    People who say you need to do this to make sales are just making excuses. I've sold a lot of product with nothing more than a few lines and a buy button.

    When you can honestly just say:

    This is who it's for.
    This is what it does and why.
    This is how much it is and how to pay.

    You don't need all this other BS to try and confuse people into thinking they're getting something secret.
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    nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author suemax
    I'm new on here (last night in fact!), BUT I SO agree with what you are saying. We have all "clicked through" and sometimes bought, only to have delivered something SO completely different from what we thought we were buying. They insult our intelligence!

    The tricky thing is to trace the sales letter to the duff product since all the names have the same hyperbole to them!

    Keep it up!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    John,

    No-one who's doing the things you're talking about is going to read this and suddenly wake up and change their ways. You've been around long enough to know that as well as any of us.

    What, exactly, is the point of this kind of thread?

    What productive goal are you aiming for with it?


    Paul
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    Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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    • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      John,

      No-one who's doing the things you're talking about is going to read this and suddenly wake up and change their ways. You've been around long enough to know that as well as any of us.

      What, exactly, is the point of this kind of thread?

      What productive goal are you aiming for with it?


      Paul
      No one who is doing it is going to "wake up and change their ways" but if it helps shape even one newbie's mind so they don't just blindly copy the approach then I'd say this thread served a great purpose.

      Not to mention it's sparked some lively discussion about various related points such as the "If I don't have a high refund rate, I probably didn't sell hard enough" mentality etc.

      Just my 2c but I think its a good one.

      Andy
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Paul,

        What, exactly, is the point of this kind of thread?
        Excuse my extreme cynicism and this isn't aimed primarily at John, but we have seen a whole bunch of people recently who have found success in IM who have suddenly decided to come out (in threads and blog posts) and aim attacks at a very small section of the market who are currently behaving badly.

        They appear to attack certain activities in the marketplace (EG blind salespages) which are consistent with this very small section of the market whilst conveniently ignoring many other similarly unethical practices which are causing just as many similar problems, have been for some time and the evidence of which sometimes only now exists in the memory of those who witnessed the now deleted blog posts.

        The hypocrisy I have seen in some of these other threads and blog posts is staggering. People are presumeably getting quite desperate and don't appreciate this very small section of the market 'stealing their thunder' - (for the record, I'm not a part of this very small section and have no connection with it - as usual, I'm just saying it as I see it.)

        Apparently, the place to position yourself right now is 'attacking the problem on behalf of the beleaguered consumer out of a sense of righteousness.'

        All of a sudden many of the IM gurus are now half guru, half droid. :rolleyes:
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        Roger Davis

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        • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
          Banned
          I don't get the impression that gurus are that remorseful. I think the ones that write these posts are just happy they don't have to do that kind of stuff anymore.

          They always are disgusted with tactics after they made their money with it.
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        • Profile picture of the author sal64
          Perhaps it's because I make an effort to avoid looking at most offers, but I am yet to come across a blind sales offer, or whatever it's called.

          I have also noticed these threads popping up also, and cynically, I wonder if it's more of a positioning statement.

          I have purchased products from John and they are of top quality, that's for sure.

          But the lines are blurred in my opinion. Persuasive copy is used by almost everyone including John. Ok, so a small % does not reveal the product... but there are many others that use the same hype and promises in their copy.

          Frankly, I see no difference between the two approaches. A crap product is a crap product... regardless of how it is sold.


          Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

          Hi Paul,

          Excuse my extreme cynicism and this isn't aimed primarily at John, but we have seen a whole bunch of people recently who have found success in IM who have suddenly decided to come out (in threads and blog posts) and aim attacks at a very small section of the market who are currently behaving badly.

          They appear to attack certain activities in the marketplace (EG blind salespages) which are consistent with this very small section of the market whilst conveniently ignoring many other similarly unethical practices which are causing just as many similar problems, have been for some time and the evidence of which sometimes only now exists in the memory of those who witnessed the now deleted blog posts.

          The hypocrisy I have seen in some of these other threads and blog posts is staggering. People are presumeably getting quite desperate and don't appreciate this very small section of the market 'stealing their thunder' - (for the record, I'm not a part of this very small section and have no connection with it - as usual, I'm just saying it as I see it.)

          Apparently, the place to position yourself right now is 'attacking the problem on behalf of the beleaguered consumer out of a sense of righteousness.'

          All of a sudden many of the IM gurus are now half guru, half droid. :rolleyes:
          Signature
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        • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
          [DELETED]
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          • Profile picture of the author John Delavera
            Originally Posted by Josh Anderson View Post

            John, you have long been an innovator in the IM world. But in recent years I have been totally turned off by your style of marketing... the strangeness of your spiritual messages in some of your preselling where the message was devoid of content that related to the product that was to be marketed following that preselling.

            You may not agree with my assessment. And likewise those who write some of the copy you detest may not agree with your assessment of their copy.
            Josh

            Allow me to believe there is a big difference here and you are
            comparing oranges with apples, for the following reason:

            "Strangeness" is a subjective judgment. You have all the
            liberty to find my spiritual marketing "strange" the same way
            one could say the same for example for J. Vitale's copy.
            BUT the DIFFERENCE here is that I do NOT USE that "kind"
            of "spiritual messages" for delivering rubbish. MOREOVER
            I DO USE that kind of "spiritual messages" because that is ME,
            the way I think, the way I feel and in fact that's PART OF MY
            COURSE (Level 3 of the Delaverian Marketing Course.) I do
            advocate a specific way of marketing and spirituality IS part
            of it. Again, I do not deliver anything that has no connection
            with the sales letters I use.

            So it seems we do not walk on the same path and that is why
            you have been turned off my by style. Sorry, but as said, we
            both enjoy the freedom to choose whom we follow.

            Originally Posted by Josh Anderson View Post

            However, just because I did not like certain marketing content that you published it did not mean that your product or offer was bad. You have put out great products that have changed the face of internet marketing for good in their innovation and benefits to customers.
            Again you use your personal opinion for my style for an analogy
            that does not work here for the following reason:

            I NEVER used any kind of "spiritual messages" for selling say
            JVManager/Fantasos/DELAVO or any other script. I have never
            done that. I allow myself to speak the way *I AM and feel*
            hence adding spirituality to my messages ONLY for expressing
            my thoughts in general OR when I am referring to "Occult
            Marketing(r)." My personal thoughts and "Occult Marketing(r)"
            may turn off people, yes, but we all know that we cannot please
            everybody. I am happy to communicate effectively with the
            people I love and those that love me anyway.

            PLEASE let's not resort to arguments on a personal level here;
            it'll will destroy the thread.

            If you can argue & prove that I use the same blind-ad-sales letters
            that's perfectly fine; I am here to discuss about it.

            If you or anyone else is turned off by my personal approach to
            life and business, then this is another story and I'd not like to
            discuss about it here - the same way I respect the personal
            approach & style you and everybody has followed online from the
            time you started until today.

            John
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            • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
              Originally Posted by John Delavera View Post

              I NEVER used any kind of "spiritual messages" for selling say JVManager/Fantasos/DELAVO or any other script. I have never done that.
              Maybe you did not think you did...

              But the campaign you used to kick off Delavo was all Delavarian ;-)

              That is the way I interpreted it as a consumer... I was... not impressed. To me it was the epitome of what the OP in this thread was claiming to detest.

              That is how it impacted me when you mailed it... you may not have meant it that way... but there was so much of this "the way to change your life" type preselling for delavo. Lots of featureless preselling. It just felt yucky to me.
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              • Profile picture of the author John Delavera
                LOL

                I had never thought about it like that Josh.

                I mean... I did not use spirituality in Delavo's promotion.
                Yes I used the concepts "it can change your life," "Do it the Delavo way,"
                etc... because it changed my life too and it also changes the life
                of those that use it as a business tool. The same way your
                solution changes the life of your customers. But I do think
                it was not either a spiritual approach or a blind-ad approach.

                And yes it was a different approach I used on those days
                more of a marketing test I'd add. Same for the D. Girl.

                John




                Originally Posted by Josh Anderson View Post

                Maybe you did not think you did...

                But the campaign you used to kick off Delavo was all Delavarian ;-)

                That is the way I interpreted it as a consumer... I was... not impressed. To me it was the epitome of what the OP in this thread was claiming to detest.

                That is how it impacted me when you mailed it... you may not have meant it that way... but there was so much of this "the way to change your life" type preselling for delavo. Lots of featureless preselling. It just felt yucky to me.
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        • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
          I have noticed the pattern too and feel very similar to ExRat.

          In one recent post here on the WF it was as if someone was prepping the market (or this forum even) for this kind of response. They were claiming that big names in marketing were considering leaving and not sharing their infinite wisdom any more because of how bad the market had gotten. It was a strange and cryptic post and left me very suspicious and cynical.

          I agree with the distaste John has for blind copy... and I do not think that he is part of some conspiracy or group... but this post and others like it have followed that "premonition" post I referred to so I wonder why this sentiment is popping up following that post just in the way that it seemed to predict.

          I personally don't have the option or desire of selling in those ways. My markets would lynch me :-)

          But I also do not feel its nearly the market destroying epidemic that it is being made out to be. I feel that there are much worse practices... many being proliferated by "big names" in IM that should be admonished.

          Since I have no inclination to sell in this way avoiding it has greatly benefited my company as like minded partners, affiliates, and customers are drawn to companies who do not sell sizzle to avoid the hype.

          Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

          Hi Paul,

          Excuse my extreme cynicism and this isn't aimed primarily at John, but we have seen a whole bunch of people recently who have found success in IM who have suddenly decided to come out (in threads and blog posts) and aim attacks at a very small section of the market who are currently behaving badly.

          They appear to attack certain activities in the marketplace (EG blind salespages) which are consistent with this very small section of the market whilst conveniently ignoring many other similarly unethical practices which are causing just as many similar problems, have been for some time and the evidence of which sometimes only now exists in the memory of those who witnessed the now deleted blog posts.

          The hypocrisy I have seen in some of these other threads and blog posts is staggering. People are presumeably getting quite desperate and don't appreciate this very small section of the market 'stealing their thunder' - (for the record, I'm not a part of this very small section and have no connection with it - as usual, I'm just saying it as I see it.)

          Apparently, the place to position yourself right now is 'attacking the problem on behalf of the beleaguered consumer out of a sense of righteousness.'

          All of a sudden many of the IM gurus are now half guru, half droid. :rolleyes:
          Signature
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        • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
          What's wrong with an experienced guy like John coming here and posting this?

          What you think it has nothing to do, with a need, at the moment?

          Don't think there is a problem? Especially in the last year or so?

          Most people outside IM lump everyone together.

          While admittedly, a little long winded and esoteric, his basic message is right.

          The only way for evil to win is for good men to do nothing


          If you don't regulate yourself, someone will regulate you.



          There are only TWO words you need to go to your soul and start with in anything you do.

          Yes and No. Positive or negative.

          Is this deceptive? yes/no am I selling crap? yes/no and so on.

          Oversimplified?

          No, simplified.

          Maybe he should have called this thread something else like,

          I give up, or Article marketing is crap, or I'm gonna die if I don't make 49.95 by tomorrow.

          Then it would have been alright.



          I like the way Andy put it.


          Andy Fletcher

          No one who is doing it is going to "wake up and change their ways" but if it helps shape even one newbie's mind so they don't just blindly copy the approach then I'd say this thread served a great purpose.
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          • Profile picture of the author ExRat
            Hi John,

            Roger, I do not understand why "it'd be a shame" if "everyone
            jumped on this particular bandwagon" and what those "opposite results"
            could be; what I see instead is a big number of people that share the
            same disgust.
            I'll elaborate.

            The very first post I made in this forum was in a thread in main discussion which was about a certain product, recently launched. I was a buyer of this product. It was sold by someone who JVed with the main group of gurus, but he doesn't post here anymore and hasn't for years.

            The thread was polarised into two groups - the one group was aligned with the person who started the thread who was ranting that even though they got a refund, they felt that they had lost out in terms of time spent, lost motivation etc. and they also mentioned that this was a trend in the market that would possibly damage the market. They complained about how JV partners and affiliates add to the hype/innaccuracies by saying anything they wanted in order to get a sale.

            The problem was that the product didn't live up to the claims made in the salesletter. It wasn't a blind salesletter. But it was inaccurate/over-hyped.

            The thread was a good old ding-dong and due to my direct/newbie-to-forums approach I grasped the mantle for the 'complainers' side and met lots of new people - some of whom became friends eventually (even some of my opponents in that thread), then the thread ultimately got deleted.

            Much of my participation here has been along similar lines ever since. Countless times I have elaborated on why I feel that certain activities in the market give it a bad name. It was actually for this reason that I closed down my fledgling lists and IM sites and decided to work outside of the IM/biz-op market - because I found myself jumping on the bandwagon and promoting the syndicate launch crap to my subscribers at the same time as I was buying it. I decided instead to go away for some time, work on other things and possibly come back one day when I had more non-IM experience and when I could be sure that I could build a list and sell to it without compromising my principles and hence becoming a contributing part of the crap-fest problem.

            I tend to avoid confrontations on the forum nowadays more than I used to, but for a time when I was posting a lot I got involved in every scrap going on here. I think it's fair to say that I always took the stance of standing up for the 'little guy' - the independent IMer like myself, trying to learn the ropes and not get ripped off in the process.

            I took a lot of flak for taking that stance - often from people with some clout forming teams. I'm fully aware that I got on peoples nerves and burnt some bridges, but it felt like a 'cause' that was worthy and that I believed in and overall, I felt that I managed to turn much of it into a worthwhile contribution with some lessons and valuable opinion included.

            That's the backdrop to my main point, which is -

            As I mentioned overleaf, recently we seem to have had a procession of people making comment here and on their blogs about the exact same thing that I have spent years banging on about.

            It's up to the reader to decide whether those people are fighting for the 'cause' or marketing themselves, but in some of these threads (not this one in particular) it looks pretty clear to me that people are being pretty hypocritical.

            Most of these attacks are aimed at the UK group of clickbank sellers. Some of them are picking on certain aspects of these such as the blind salespages.

            See what Robert posted -

            Just as a addon to this discussion the subject of blind sales copy was a big talking point on the marketers cruise last week.

            There is a big backlash from top promoters about it, and those most guilty of it are steadilly being dropped from those promoters list of exceptable JV's for future launches

            They are being given names like the manchester mafia etc.

            People with big lists are taking the point that this kind or JV hurts them and their subscribers. They see it as IM imploding if they keep on supporting those who are guilty of such marketing

            Upshot is their is already a mainstream wave of people who are determined not to support such promotions and launches anymore
            I don't know which marketers were on the cruise Robert, but I do know that it's probably these guys with their 'big lists' that I'm referring to regarding the hypocrisy.

            I made the 'droid' remark in my last post - I'm sure it doesn't go down too well here bringing 'droids' into the conversation, but it seems as though some people are forgetting that there has been a 'backlash' going for a year or two now in this market - not at the 'Manchester mafia', or the 'UK clickbank gang', but at IM marketers in general and in particular - what has become known in those circles as 'the syndicate' - you know, that group of top IM marketers who work together as a syndicate. I've lost count of how many times I've had 'syndicate-denial' shoved down my throat in here by certain people.

            This backlash I refer to was not just against a group of UK marketers. It was not just against blind salespages. It was against ALL of the worldwide group of marketers who piss people off by selling snake-oil and spend their time doing other crappy things, such as getting shill accounts here to post about their products at launch time (seems to have stopped/died down nowadays, thankfully) or trying to build a cult to swan around forums and the internet in general bashing anyone who raises a dissenting voice with cries of 'loser' or 'failure'.

            Therefore it seems really lame to me, to have to keep enduring this trend ceaselessly revolving around the whole guru circuit where one by one they pronounce that 'they have had enough' and that 'someone needs to stand up and be counted and put a stop to this on behalf of the little guy before it ruins our industry' - and they say it each time as if it's the very first time anyone has ever stuck their head above the parapet and said it!

            Plus, they always pigeon-hole the problem into one particular area which just happens to be a group of people who AREN'T part of the main syndicate and along with this they focus their attack on one particular aspect of what they do. Some might conclude from this that perhaps these UK clickbank sellers are putting a dent in the syndicate's profits. If this is the case then it's hypocritical for them to start droning on about 'blind salespages' when there are 101 other things that cause just as much harm, if not more.

            Then they act slightly surprised that they're getting agreement on the thread or in emails and loads of thanks - as if it's because their pronouncement was so inspired and original and as if it's confirmation that people need to hear this message! Yet the reason is because they are someone who has already built their cult following into a group that will praise everything that they do or say!

            And this is exactly why, when someone else did one of these threads about 10 days ago, aimed at precisely the same group of 'guilty' marketers, the question I asked him was -

            'Are you including all snake-oil tactics in your rant, such as boiler-room telesales operations, or is it just this one aspect?'

            I didn't get a direct answer in the thread, but we did get replies from people telling horror stories about telesales boiler-rooms calling them unexpectedly after they had bought an IM product from one of the syndicate group.

            My two main points -

            1. These gurus shouldn't be acting as if they are doing something original when they stand up and call for the market to rein itself in.

            2. They shouldn't be picking and choosing one or two snake-oil tactics to focus on with their attacks.

            Unless, of course, they don't mind ending up looking like a hypocrite and are happy for people to assume that it's a lame, dishonest marketing attempt, hidden behind a cloak of fake concern for the little guy consumer.

            If they want to avoid this, they should admit that others have been stating this message thanklessly for ages and they should go after ALL the different types of unethical, dishonest and market-damaging behaviour that is going on - not just pick and choose the ones that suit them because somebody else is doing it.

            Does this explain why I think it would be a shame if 'everyone jumped on this particular bandwagon' in this manner? As far as I'm aware John, you are not part of this syndicate and don't use these tactics, therefore that's part of why I say that 'it would be a shame.'
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              John,

              Terry Dean was doing this stuff before the WF existed. I know, because I was one of the publishers to whom he regularly submitted articles back then. Russell may (or may not) have learned some things here, but he'd have done quite well without this place. I could name dozens of people who are making huge money who've never set mouse inside this forum, and more who were making good money before they heard about the place.

              You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but if you present something as a statistical fact, you should expect to be asked for some sort of backing for it.

              As far as the emails you've gotten on the unfocused diatribe... yep. I don't doubt it. That's easy. If you hit a hot button, you'll get people agreeing with you. The hard part is suggesting a constructive alternative, which you haven't done here on this topic. Yet.
              I do not call your side silly or anything because I respect anyone's right to SPEAK UP when s/he wants.
              Oh, save the nonsense, John. No-one said you couldn't speak up. The thread is still here, innit?

              Not speaking for anyone else, I simply asked what you wanted to accomplish with this type of thread. If you want to turn that simple question into an accusation of something more, that's your business. You're going to have a hard time supporting it, though.


              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author paulie888
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


                As far as the emails you've gotten on the unfocused diatribe... yep. I don't doubt it. That's easy. If you hit a hot button, you'll get people agreeing with you. The hard part is suggesting a constructive alternative, which you haven't done here on this topic. Yet.Oh, save the nonsense, John. No-one said you couldn't speak up. The thread is still here, innit?

                Not speaking for anyone else, I simply asked what you wanted to accomplish with this type of thread. If you want to turn that simple question into an accusation of something more, that's your business. You're going to have a hard time supporting it, though.


                Paul
                Paul, I applaud you for keeping this thread up, despite the fact that it has become more of a rant than anything else, as you've so astutely pointed out. There's nothing really constructive to be derived out of this, except for a whole slew of diatribes coming from two camps that have coalesced from people who have very strong opinions about this issue.

                Neither side is going to be swayed here, so there's really very little tangible benefit to be had from continuing this discussion.

                Paul
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                • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
                  Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

                  There's nothing really constructive to be derived out of this, except for a whole slew of diatribes coming from two camps that have coalesced from people who have very strong opinions about this issue.
                  I'm not sure what you are saying is true about this thread not being constructive.

                  While there are obviously two camps, there are probably those reading this thread who haven't thought about it before. And some won't have the background to really judge one way or the other. And some won't change their minds regardless of the facts.

                  Unless I am really missing the boat, the OP was basically talking about *misleading* copywriting, and that should be a concern to all of us. I have one friend who considers IM nothing more than spamming. And with all the emails that have misleading subject titles and content, I have to partially agree with him.

                  Another thought as to this thread not being constructive ... writing is often a way to clarify our own thoughts. Being challenged on those thoughts is not a bad thing.

                  Marvin
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            • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
              Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

              I don't know which marketers were on the cruise Robert, but I do know that it's probably these guys with their 'big lists' that I'm referring to regarding the hypocrisy.

              I made the 'droid' remark in my last post - I'm sure it doesn't go down too well here bringing 'droids' into the conversation, but it seems as though some people are forgetting that there has been a 'backlash' going for a year or two now in this market - not at the 'Manchester mafia', or the 'UK clickbank gang', but at IM marketers in general and in particular - what has become known in those circles as 'the syndicate' - you know, that group of top IM marketers who work together as a syndicate. I've lost count of how many times I've had 'syndicate-denial' shoved down my throat in here by certain people.

              Nothing wrong with marketers getting together in groups and selling each others products Roger. Thats called strategic alliances and is legititmate business deal between equal partners.

              As long as the sale process fully outlines what the products are and doesnt just sell the dream on its own without substance.

              The backlash is against those that sell the dream with no substance either in the product or in the sales process.

              Nothing wrong in me being an affiliate for you and Paul, and you and Paul being an affiliate for me...and paul and I being an affiliate for you

              The syndicate bashing is not hypocrosy on the big list owners part, but on the part of the droid followers Mostly built on the emotion of jealousy. It makes perfect sense and is entirely logical for marketers to make deals on promoting each others products.

              Again provided the sales process is open and clear as to what the product is.
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        • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
          Banned
          Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

          Hi Paul,

          Excuse my extreme cynicism and this isn't aimed primarily at John, but we have seen a whole bunch of people recently who have found success in IM who have suddenly decided to come out (in threads and blog posts) and aim attacks at a very small section of the market who are currently behaving badly.

          They appear to attack certain activities in the marketplace (EG blind salespages) which are consistent with this very small section of the market whilst conveniently ignoring many other similarly unethical practices which are causing just as many similar problems, have been for some time and the evidence of which sometimes only now exists in the memory of those who witnessed the now deleted blog posts.

          The hypocrisy I have seen in some of these other threads and blog posts is staggering. People are presumeably getting quite desperate and don't appreciate this very small section of the market 'stealing their thunder' - (for the record, I'm not a part of this very small section and have no connection with it - as usual, I'm just saying it as I see it.)

          Apparently, the place to position yourself right now is 'attacking the problem on behalf of the beleaguered consumer out of a sense of righteousness.'

          All of a sudden many of the IM gurus are now half guru, half droid. :rolleyes:
          Hilarious thread. Absolutely hilarious. Do any of you have any idea of what the OPs products are? Or indeed who he really is? But there you all go like sheep thanking his rant on...what exactly? Please illuminate me 'cause I don't get it. BTW "John" - didn't you like announce your retirement and sell out your business a year ago? So is this the real "John" or just someone who's taken over the business and perhaps even your WF avatar. We're not all lemmings you know.
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          • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
            Originally Posted by Metronicity View Post

            Hilarious thread. Absolutely hilarious. Do any of you have any idea of what the OPs products are? Or indeed who he really is? But there you all go like sheep thanking his rant on...what exactly? Please illuminate me 'cause I don't get it. BTW "John" - didn't you like announce your retirement and sell out your business a year ago? So is this the real "John" or just someone who's taken over the business and perhaps even your WF avatar. We're not all lemmings you know.
            Mal:
            I am pretty sure this is actually JD I don't think he sold off everything but obviously he can answer that part.

            I wish you much success on your new project
            cheers
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          • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
            Originally Posted by Metronicity View Post

            Hilarious thread. Absolutely hilarious. Do any of you have any idea of what the OPs products are? Or indeed who he really is? But there you all go like sheep thanking his rant on...what exactly? Please illuminate me 'cause I don't get it. BTW "John" - didn't you like announce your retirement and sell out your business a year ago? So is this the real "John" or just someone who's taken over the business and perhaps even your WF avatar. We're not all lemmings you know.
            John created some of the most innovative products in the internet marketing niche over the last decade. I have been a customer and user of many of his great products for more than 6 years... maybe as many as eight years (can't remember that far back).

            John is the ceator of great products like:

            Dynamic Pricing Generator
            JV manager
            Delavo

            and a long long long list of many others.

            I have personally made tens of thousands of dollars using Johns products over the years.

            I am a fan of John's innovation and many of his products.

            My comments were a critical response from my own experience and reactions to actual content and marketing materials that John has put out as well as his comments in this thread.

            Additionally a high percentage of the people participating in this thread both pro and con know John's business and products well, respect him, and likely most of them own one or more of his products :-)

            It would not be unusual for John to be described as "one of the good guys."

            So agree or disagree... yes, most of us know who John is and respect him.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Andy,

    The fact that it inspired a few potentially useful posts isn't what I asked about. I want to know the purpose in posting something like this at all. The only long term outcome is that a lot more people feel justified in their belief that the whole industry is corrupt, so it's not their fault when they fail.

    It's those damned cheating gurus!

    Roger,

    I'm confident that motive fits some of the people doing this, although not nearly as many as is usually claimed. I very much doubt that's John's motivation. Not his style, and he's got a lot of years of consistent behavior backing that style up.

    That's why this puzzles me. He's not some clueless git or whiny little twit. He's not a manipulative cynic trying to make a name by putting others down. He's legit.

    I wonder what the actual expected outcome is in posting something like this.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Paul,

      In general, I agree with your points. I think it would be a shame if absolutely everyone jumped on this particular bandwagon as I think it may end up achieving the opposite of what was intended.
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    • Profile picture of the author edseward
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Andy,

      The fact that it inspired a few potentially useful posts isn't what I asked about. I want to know the purpose in posting something like this at all. The only long term outcome is that a lot more people feel justified in their belief that the whole industry is corrupt, so it's not their fault when they fail.

      It's those damned cheating gurus!

      Roger,

      I'm confident that motive fits some of the people doing this, although not nearly as many as is usually claimed. I very much doubt that's John's motivation. Not his style, and he's got a lot of years of consistent behavior backing that style up.

      That's why this puzzles me. He's not some clueless git or whiny little twit. He's not a manipulative cynic trying to make a name by putting others down. He's legit.

      I wonder what the actual expected outcome is in posting something like this.


      Paul
      Maybe just a few who are new to IM will read it and not waste their time and money falling for any sales letter unless they understand exactly what they will receive.

      That would seem adequate payback for starting this discussion for me.
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      • Profile picture of the author BrandonLee
        It would be nice, but the truth is at the low end of the market the average person is not motivated to succeed. This is not 100% true, but failure rates are very close to 95% in IM.

        Building a real business is hard work, and it doesn't happen overnight. People don't seem to want to hear this or face this simple truth.

        A lot of people want something for nothing, and as long as they want to continue to believe in santa clause and the tooth fairy there will be people to sell it to them.




        Originally Posted by edseward View Post

        Maybe just a few who are new to IM will read it and not waste their time and money falling for any sales letter unless they understand exactly what they will receive.

        That would seem adequate payback for starting this discussion for me.
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        • Profile picture of the author edseward
          Originally Posted by BrandonLee View Post

          It would be nice, but the truth is at the low end of the market the average person is not motivated to succeed. This is not 100% true, but failure rates are very close to 95% in IM.

          Building a real business is hard work, and it doesn't happen overnight. People don't seem to want to hear this or face this simple truth.

          A lot of people want something for nothing, and as long as they want to continue to believe in santa clause and the tooth fairy there will be people to sell it to them.
          You did note that I said "maybe just a few".

          The fact that people are lazy and are sheep does not justify shearing them.

          Unfortunately if the IM market does not police itself the Government with the big G will jump in and do it for them. When that happens those who are not in the IM niche suffer along with the IMers. The Government punishes the good with the bad when they become involved.

          I now must post 10 disclaimers on my web sites when 1 disclaimer was sufficient in the recent past.

          I don't post often as I am too busy with my business model to become involved in discussions here and similar forums. But we all get tarred with the same brush when we do nothing to clean up the bad actors in all the niches involving the Internet.
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          • Profile picture of the author BrandonLee
            I'm in agreement with you, but rarely does everyone act like they "should", especially when large amounts of money are involved. It would be nice if they did, but it just doesn't happen very often.

            Government regulation is on the way - and the business model people are using online (In my opinion) is going to change, especially in IM.




            Originally Posted by edseward View Post

            You did note that I said "maybe just a few".

            The fact that people are lazy and are sheep does not justify shearing them.

            Unfortunately if the IM market does not police itself the Government with the big G will jump in and do it for them. When that happens those who are not in the IM niche suffer along with the IMers. The Government punishes the good with the bad when they become involved.

            I now must post 10 disclaimers on my web sites when 1 disclaimer was sufficient in the recent past.

            I don't post often as I am too busy with my business model to become involved in discussions here and similar forums. But we all get tarred with the same brush when we do nothing to clean up the bad actors in all the niches involving the Internet.
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    • Profile picture of the author Barbara Eyre
      John,

      Foremost, I have to thank you for finally pointing this out! I also have HATED those sales letters (and marketing techniques) you have mentioned for I saw them for what they were right off the bat. But since I don't have the marketing clout that people such as yourself have, my mention of it would have fallen on deaf ears.

      I haven't read any of the responses yet, so I don't know if this has been covered, but I've seen a major shift in societal manners and humanity over the decades, and it's sickening to see how anti-social and unfeeling so many humans have become during that time. Politeness has just about gone the way of the dinosaur. The main theme is now "Me, Me, ME - it's all about ME and how I can benefit from [insert whatever here] and I don't care who I hurt to achieve that end." Just this topic alone can result in a multi-page dissertation on my soap box, so I'll just leave it at that.

      This selfish, unfeeling attitude has seeped deeply into Internet Marketing and can be easily seen in sale letter tactics, such as John has posted about here. And it's absolutely scary how sick these so-called professionals have become in order to make money.

      Here's a novel concept folks - be honest. Actually CARE about your customers and potential customers. It worked just fine in the past - so there's no reason for it not to work now. Quit the lies, quit the deception, quit the psychological manipulations.

      I also want to thank you, John, for this post because right away it sparked a way for me to start off a section of my new website I'm developing but just couldn't find the words or manner in which to do it. This was perfect and I hand-wrote over a page and half on notebook within minutes. So, your post helped me immensely.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Barbara Eyre View Post

        I've seen a major shift in societal manners and humanity over the decades, and it's sickening to see how anti-social and unfeeling so many humans have become during that time. Politeness has just about gone the way of the dinosaur. The main theme is now "Me, Me, ME - it's all about ME and how I can benefit from [insert whatever here] and I don't care who I hurt to achieve that end."
        Barbara, this has been going on since the beginning of time. You're talking
        about greed and it's not a new thing. It just seems that there is more of
        it because you're exposed to more people.

        But I can tell you...my 10 years in the auto industry exposed me to more
        greed and corruption than I have ever seen in my 8 years online, which is
        part of the reason I had to leave that job in the mid 90s.

        There are still good people out there, probably just as many as there
        ever were. But we tend to dwell on the bad instead of looking at the good.

        It's kind of like a car wreck on the freeway. We'll all slow down to look at it
        but at the same time, a man young man helping an elderly woman across
        the street, we won't even notice.

        That's why TV dramas are filled with violence. Who wants to watch people
        holding hands and being nice to each other? There is nothing entertaining
        about that. And when we watch the news, we don't notice the good
        stories...only the ones that are sensational.

        It's called human nature and it's not going to change.

        I think I said the same thing to John earlier.

        Guess I really must believe it.
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        • Profile picture of the author HollyStar
          Consumers are desperate to find a solution, what ever the niche is. The sad thing (or good thing in the marketers eyes) is that only 2% of dissatisfied customers complain. The other 98% either don't really care, or are too ashamed to admit that the 'so called product' failed for them. They don't blame the product, they blame themselves. So even if the product sucks, only 2% of those who were not satisfied will refund. It's just human nature.

          This is how the tricks pay off so well.

          Yes, perhaps consumers need to do their own due diligence on the product, but how can we really be sure anything is real anymore, when the truthful products in the niche are diluted with fictional garbage.
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          • Profile picture of the author paulie888
            Originally Posted by HollyStar View Post

            Consumers are desperate to find a solution, what ever the niche is. The sad thing (or good thing in the marketers eyes) is that only 2% of dissatisfied customers complain. The other 98% either don't really care, or are too ashamed to admit that the 'so called product' failed for them. They don't blame the product, they blame themselves. So even if the product sucks, only 2% of those who were not satisfied will refund. It's just human nature.

            This is how the tricks pay off so well.

            Yes, perhaps consumers need to do their own due diligence on the product, but how can we really be sure anything is real anymore, when the truthful products in the niche are diluted with fictional garbage.
            The crap sellers are banking on this fact to minimize refunds. They also use psychological tricks in their sales copy to place the responsibility for success entirely on the shoulders of the purchasers, removing any blame on their part (the sellers) for a lack of results.

            Even with all these tricks, when you cross the boundaries and start selling ridiculously overhyped pushbutton $37 products that promise the moon, you're inevitably going to experience a backlash such as we've seen.

            This does make it hard for the more ethical product sellers to compete, because if they don't want to emulate this type of unethical sales copy, they'll inevitably be crowded out of the marketplace by all the hype-filled products.

            About the only way I can see them resolving this is by taking a more premium approach to their marketing, and selling something that is priced higher with more specific targeting towards a particular type of customer.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nuno
      It's sad to see so many rehashed products, in truth some are just slightly updated versions of old scripts, programs or guides.

      This will only ruin the business for everyone on the long term because buyers will become more and more suspicious.

      I don't work that way. I don't release anything that isn't truly valuable. Everyone here could release a new product every week, with so many plr products available it just needs a few tweaks, a new copy page and especially a new name. If you sell these honestly, without false promises, that's ok.
      But if you fill your sale with hype, and show Clickbank accounts that generate money selling that exact product, other unrelated products or just because you had access to a big list, well, it's your reputation.
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    • Profile picture of the author lowlands
      Dear John,

      What is the expression again? Holier than thou? Come of your high horse now.

      You yourself have have sold a really expensive marketing tool in the recent past that a lot of people spent their last money on. People bought this tool mostly because of a specific feature "that will make you money!!!".

      The next thing we (customers of John Delavera) know is that the software is no longer supported unless you upgrade to a new version where you lose that specific tool that you bought the software for in the first place.

      Then customers start to complain on the support forum. Even people that have been heavily supporting you. And what do you do? You just delete every post on your forum that contains the slightes bit of criticism about your marketing ethics.

      "No, a good solution will be found for all customers, even if you don't go for the upgrade." We're still waiting John, up sh*t creek without a paddle.

      The latest of your marketing tacktics has been to just ask people to donate money to you so you bring enough in your wallet to the USA to get a green card.

      Are you for real???

      So shut up about other peoples marketing tackticks and clean up your own act first.
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      • Profile picture of the author Gobala Krishnan
        Originally Posted by lowlands View Post

        You yourself have have sold a really expensive marketing tool in the recent past that a lot of people spent their last money on. People bought this tool mostly because of a specific feature "that will make you money!!!".

        The next thing we (customers of John Delavera) know is that the software is no longer supported unless you upgrade to a new version where you lose that specific tool that you bought the software for in the first place.
        I know what you're talking about, I paid more than $3,000 in total for that. Now I'm thinking very hard how to move all that to some other type of software or system.

        Well, to give credit, it was absolutely the best software I have ever used. But the frequency at which abrupt decision and changes are made, I no longer feel safe buying software from Internet marketers.
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      • Profile picture of the author James Campbell
        Originally Posted by lowlands View Post

        Dear John,

        What is the expression again? Holier than thou? Come of your high horse now.....blah,blah,blah
        Funny this coming from some anon poster.

        If you want to voice your opinion, try not hiding.

        James
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        • Profile picture of the author lowlands
          Originally Posted by James Campbell View Post

          Funny this coming from some anon poster.

          If you want to voice your opinion, try not hiding.

          James
          Wanted to get your opinion in here too? I'm not hiding behind anything. You want a full name? OK Theo Kiers, and I am from the Netherlands. Is that enough for you?

          As for the bla, bla, bla. Pa321 and Gobala Krishnan know what I am talking about. They obviously had the same experience with John. I agree with the contents of John's complaint though.

          It's just that the person who started this thread isn't the most qualified to point the finger at other markers. Now John has even set up a site on the subject at hand. For our convenience there is a URL on the first page that leads to one of his many sites where we can all buy more of his stuff. Is this clever marketing or what? Portrait yourself as one of the righteous marketers (which is somewhat besides the truth as some of us discovered the hard way) and then sell more of your stuff to those who fall into the trap.

          @ Pa321
          Guess John isn't a millionaire after all since he is begging his followers for money to be able to move to the US.
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          • Profile picture of the author John Delavera
            Sorry but you are funny.

            Originally Posted by lowlands View Post

            Guess John isn't a millionaire after all since he is begging his followers for money to be able to move to the US.
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            • Profile picture of the author lowlands
              Originally Posted by John Delavera View Post

              Sorry but you are funny.
              Meaning ....??? That I am mistaken. That you didn't ask people for donations in order to gain enough capital to be able to meet the minimum requirements to enter the USA? I am surely not the only one who read that webpage and a couple of testimonials of people who actually donated

              Meaning ....??? That you didn't upset a whole bunch of Delavo customers by changing the terms - within 12 months after launching the script - and cutting out the Roles feature telling us that we could now sell Delavo as affiliates to new customers for a rediculous monthly fee instead of building our own hosted accounts business as advertised?

              Common John! I sympathise with the subject of this thread but I think that the fact that you have taken this initiative will surprise quite a number of your (former) customers.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alminc
        Originally Posted by lowlands View Post

        Dear John,

        ...

        Then customers start to complain on the support forum. Even people that have been heavily supporting you. And what do you do? You just delete every post on your forum that contains the slightes bit of criticism about your marketing ethics.

        ...
        I just want to confirm that this is 100% true.

        Sorry John, but you are far from innocent in this case, and this is
        something that you should never have done.

        .
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      • Profile picture of the author Thomas Belknap
        Banned
        Originally Posted by lowlands View Post

        Dear John,


        The next thing we (customers of John Delavera) know is that the software is no longer supported unless you upgrade to a new version where you lose that specific tool that you bought the software for in the first place.

        Then customers start to complain on the support forum. Even people that have been heavily supporting you. And what do you do? You just delete every post on your forum that contains the slightes bit of criticism about your marketing ethics.
        Do you post rants on software companies forums, like Microsoft, when they discontinue support for older versions?
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        • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
          The other day, I was doing a little research on ClickBank. I wandered into the IM products on there. What an ugly, ugly place that is. I opened two sales letters. Both had videos that autoplay. If you ran them at the same time, it was close to stereo - same crap exactly, same opening line, same story. Oooo, they had this "secret software". One had it delivered sneakily on a flash drive, the other on a DVD-ROM. I'm amazed that ClickBank accepts this garbage. Definitely going to the dogs.

          Of course, the text part of the sales pages had the tell-tale "It's not ...." with a list of bullets with Xs.
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          • Profile picture of the author paulie888
            Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

            The other day, I was doing a little research on ClickBank. I wandered into the IM products on there. What an ugly, ugly place that is. I opened two sales letters. Both had videos that autoplay. If you ran them at the same time, it was close to stereo - same crap exactly, same opening line, same story. Oooo, they had this "secret software". One had it delivered sneakily on a flash drive, the other on a DVD-ROM. I'm amazed that ClickBank accepts this garbage. Definitely going to the dogs.

            Of course, the text part of the sales pages had the tell-tale "It's not ...." with a list of bullets with Xs.
            It's really quite sickening, Kevin. The situation there seems to have really gotten out of hand, with copycats running rampant - as you've observed, all you probably need to do to create a new salesletter is record a sales video that is specifically for your own product, tweak the sales copy to reflect your name and product, and you're pretty much done.

            Think about it - these snake-oil salesmen can now save a fortune in copywriting fees by just ripping each other off.
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          • Profile picture of the author Alminc
            Originally Posted by Kevin Riley View Post

            The other day, I was doing a little research on ClickBank. I wandered into the IM products on there. What an ugly, ugly place that is. I opened two sales letters. Both had videos that autoplay. If you ran them at the same time, it was close to stereo - same crap exactly, same opening line, same story. Oooo, they had this "secret software". One had it delivered sneakily on a flash drive, the other on a DVD-ROM. I'm amazed that ClickBank accepts this garbage. Definitely going to the dogs.

            Of course, the text part of the sales pages had the tell-tale "It's not ...." with a list of bullets with Xs.
            Thanks for jumping in here with such a funny (and true) comment Kevin.
            Huhh... you gave me a really good laugh.


            @John Delavera,

            I deffinitely acquired a great deal of actionable knowledge, as well as
            useful marketing tools, by being a Turbo member. And I think that you
            are a 'good guy', but not that good as you are branding yourself.

            But that doesn't matter, nobody is. You are good enough

            I think that your OP really matters, not so much to us who have been
            around for a while, but to newcomers who are most likely to spend
            money and time on BS products. Anybody with a bit of empathy should
            tell them No-No. Especially because there is a whole industry out there
            specialised for selling crap to newbies. It may sound rediculous but
            after being on some well known marketers' lists for more than 4 years
            I am still continuously getting email copies targeted at total newbies:
            'If you still haven't made your first dollar online, this will deffinitely help you
            start making real money just like the big guys do...blah,blah,blah...'
            They want everybody to be a newbie whole life because that's how they
            make their millions - buy ripping off uninformed masses.

            Well I'm happy if I can make their job just a little bit harder.

            .
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    • Profile picture of the author bjgran
      You're obviously very passionate about your question. You also sound as if you've been tricked into buying stuff that wasn't helpful or just downright false advertising. So sorry about that.
      I'm new in this Internet Marketing business and I'm not sure what "blind copy" is, but it sounds as if it should be avoided.
      This post made me glad I have my daughter, Tiffany, as a mentor.
      I like Brandon's three part answer:

      -quality products
      -don't use blind copy
      -Provide customer support

      Seems if that were the norm, we wouldn't have posts like this.
      Good luck in the future...
      Beverly G.
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      • Profile picture of the author John Delavera
        Beverly

        Internet Marketing is a wonderful world.
        It depends on us to maintain that magic.

        Black holes exist even in space.

        John



        Originally Posted by bjgran View Post

        You're obviously very passionate about your question. You also sound as if you've been tricked into buying stuff that wasn't helpful or just downright false advertising. So sorry about that.
        I'm new in this Internet Marketing business and I'm not sure what "blind copy" is, but it sounds as if it should be avoided.
        This post made me glad I have my daughter, Tiffany, as a mentor.
        I like Brandon's three part answer:

        -quality products
        -don't use blind copy
        -Provide customer support

        Seems if that were the norm, we wouldn't have posts like this.
        Good luck in the future...
        Beverly G.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Rob,
          Price fixing??? Anti Competitive Practice's? Evil syndicates?
          This is what happens when very smart people get focused on one aspect of something.

          The price-fixing argument gets blown out of the water as soon as you remember that each of these people has a different product. They set their own prices, and invite who they choose to help them promote it. The natural tendency is for each person to invite others they believe will be effective in that promotion. Unsurprisingly, that tends to fall to those who also promote high-ticket products of their own.

          Anyone who can demonstrate that they can sell them keeps getting invited to the party.

          Wow. Whodathunkit?

          Conspiracy or natural market factors? You decide.

          People who aren't selling big ticket items are in a different, if somewhat overlapping, market segment. The anti-competitive practices argument seems to fail at that point.

          The only reason I can see that anyone buys into these arguments is their frustrations overriding their logical faculties.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Rob,This is what happens when very smart people get focused on one aspect of something.

            The price-fixing argument gets blown out of the water as soon as you remember that each of these people has a different product.
            I know Paul - it's crazy.

            Even IF they all had the "same products", they only control on their lists, what, MAYBE 30% of the market between all the "typical syndicate" we all think of.

            If I did my math right, the Warrior Forum's WSO section does around 14 million a year in sales, based on some guesses - I figure that's probably equal or more than the usual syndicate members combined.

            Faulty Logic indeed.


            Price fixing and anti competitive practices happen when you have the same product, with an overwhelming majority of the market involved. If this was, say, the big corn syrup makers (which goes into everything we eat), conspiring to set prices - that is price fixing, since they own 80%+ of the market combined.

            Finally, if someone doesn't want to pay for a 2,000 dollar course, they can find cheaper alternatives just about everywhere. These are info products. Anyone can make one.

            Rob
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          • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Rob,This is what happens when very smart people get focused on one aspect of something.

            The price-fixing argument gets blown out of the water as soon as you remember that each of these people has a different product. They set their own prices, and invite who they choose to help them promote it. The natural tendency is for each person to invite others they believe will be effective in that promotion. Unsurprisingly, that tends to fall to those who also promote high-ticket products of their own.

            Anyone who can demonstrate that they can sell them keeps getting invited to the party.

            Wow. Whodathunkit?

            Conspiracy or natural market factors? You decide.


            People who aren't selling big ticket items are in a different, if somewhat overlapping, market segment. The anti-competitive practices argument seems to fail at that point.

            The only reason I can see that anyone buys into these arguments is their frustrations overriding their logical faculties.


            Paul
            I only wish I could have been as targeted and succinct as that in my replies...

            Note to self less passion more logic
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          • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            The price-fixing argument gets blown out of the water as soon as you remember that each of these people has a different product. They set their own prices, and invite who they choose to help them promote it. The natural tendency is for each person to invite others they believe will be effective in that promotion. Unsurprisingly, that tends to fall to those who also promote high-ticket products of their own.

            Anyone who can demonstrate that they can sell them keeps getting invited to the party.

            Wow. Whodathunkit?

            Conspiracy or natural market factors? You decide.
            Hi Paul,

            IANAL and I have no intention of getting into a deep debate on this subject, but the "syndicate" activities discussed by one key member, on video, seem to fall very close to the definition of a cartel, as defined in the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

            A cartel is a formal (explicit) agreement among competing firms. It is a formal organization of producers and manufacturers that agree to fix prices, marketing, and production.[1] Cartels usually occur in an oligopolistic industry, where there is a small number of sellers and usually involve homogeneous products. Cartel members may agree on such matters as price fixing, total industry output, market shares, allocation of customers, allocation of territories, bid rigging, establishment of common sales agencies, and the division of profits or combination of these. The aim of such collusion (also called the cartel agreement) is to increase individual members' profits by reducing competition.
            I do not think they are price fixing, but the marketer did mention the "members" cooperatively schedule launches to avoid simultaneous launches diluting profits.

            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            The only reason I can see that anyone buys into these arguments is their frustrations overriding their logical faculties.
            I'm not the least bit frustrated. I neither buy nor sell in the IM space. What "the Syndicate" does has no affect on my life. I simply think it is interesting and I enjoy watching the activity.

            http://www.videoweed.com/file/uz7jy50typr7t
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Bruce,

              I don't feel any frustration over it, either, which makes it easier to look at it logically and from the perspective of "That's interesting."

              Got no dog in the hunt myself. The only people in the "syndicate" whose products I even think about promoting were friends long before anyone even considered forming that particular alliance.

              The industry is a long way from oligopolistic by any measure I'd consider reasonable. Given the very low cost of entry and current large pool of players, that's likely to stay the case for a long time.

              The most credible argument is the concept of reducing competition among their own products, but that doesn't quite make the grade for me. It ignores the rest of the market, and it's not entirely consistent with long-term practices.

              The idea of restricting quantities for a given product seems out the door as a measure for these purposes, too. The action of such a small group has no impact on the total amount of instructional materials or software that can be released and available to consumers at any given time. Not even within the given topical constraints of the products in question.

              I don't see any of the rest of the standards applying to this situation at all.

              I am, of course, not a lawyer. And Dog only knows what any given judge will do when presented with a given case.


              Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
              Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

              I do not think they are price fixing, but the marketer did mention the "members" cooperatively schedule launches to avoid simultaneous launches diluting profits.
              Thats it?

              Bruce dude come on none of us want our launches to coincide with other launches to dilute our profits. Every launch manager out there worth his salt will try to schedule a launch so it doesnt clash with other marketers launches.

              Its laughable to cite that as a cartel
              Surely sensible logical people cant see that as evil
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              • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
                Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                Thats it?

                Bruce dude come on none of us want our launches to coincide with other launches to dilute our profits. Every launch manager out there worth his salt will try to schedule a launch so it doesnt clash with other marketers launches.

                Its laughable to cite that as a cartel
                Surely sensible logical people cant see that as evil
                Hi Robert,

                I didn't cite it as a cartel. I said it falls very close to the definition.

                I'm certain it is against competition law for direct competitors to meet and agree on product launch dates to increase profits. It is also against the same laws for direct competitors to discuss pricing for products.
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    • Profile picture of the author TrishMullen
      Great post that really raises some strong feelings with people. I was a victim a few times of this and always searching for the 'next best thing', easily influenced by others' earnings.

      Then I just thought "if I'm putting all this effort in and not getting anywhere near the results they say they are getting, then something is not working right. Or, have they not told me something and yes that was it". What they didn't say was you will need a marketing budget of $5k monthly to achieve those results.

      What I or you or anyone earns online bears no reflection on ANYONE's earning potential because we are all different. We have a different focus, commitments, lifestyle, expectations etc so it stands to reason that our earnings are going to be vastly different.

      Thanks John for starting this
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    • Profile picture of the author theaffiliategeek
      He's not some clueless git or whiny little twit. He's not a manipulative cynic trying to make a name by putting others down. He's legit.

      I wonder what the actual expected outcome is in posting something like this.


      Paul
      No he not a whiner, clueless or manipulative. And he is certainly not the only one that feels this way. Those of us who agree just have to bite our tongues because otherwise we are accused of being a whiner, clueless and/or manipulative.
      The outcome is we all find out who will defend and will not.
      I will in no way defend the marketing practices in question.
      My name is Pat Vojtaskovic and I approve this message.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Pat,
        Those of us who agree just have to bite our tongues because otherwise we are accused of being a whiner, clueless and/or manipulative.
        If you choose to bite your tongue, that's on you. Not anyone else.

        The fact that you see multiple perspectives on the issue being discussed here should give you all the proof you need that you're safe in presenting your beliefs, as long as they're done within the rules. We clearly have strong beliefs in disagreement in this thread.

        You could be the most clued-in person in the world, and some random passerby with an opinion and nothing else could call you any of those things. Is that a reason not to share your thoughts?

        I don't think so.

        I refrain from commenting on most of the threads I read. Sometimes it's because I have nothing useful to add. Others, because I don't know enough to comment with any real confidence. If you're quiet in a discussion for those sorts of reason, that's wise. If you're quiet because some random 'other' might call you unfounded names, that's a problem. But it's your problem.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author theaffiliategeek
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          If you're quiet because some random 'other' might call you unfounded names, that's a problem. But it's your problem.


          Paul
          Yes Paul, and you are the "other" who threw those names out there in the first place. Names like that coming from people like you tend to stick to the person(s)
          they are hurled at. That's why some of us choose to bite our tongues.

          Pat
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Pat,
            Yes Paul, and you are the "other" who threw those names out there in the first place. Names like that coming from people like you tend to stick to the person(s) they are hurled at. That's why some of us choose to bite our tongues.
            Reading a bit more into the comment than was there, sir.

            Those are phrases I rarely use, but are often used by others in this kind of discussion. I was pre-empting their use by pointing out that they did not apply to someone with John's experience.


            Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author JamesZakaria
      Some good points by all.

      This kind of lying, hyped up sales tactics cannot last. Buyers who purchase these mega traffic secret tactics might fall for it a couple of times but will stop buying and then quit.
      Then the new people will be suspicious of all IM products and we (the sellers) all will lose out.

      Bad ethics slows down the wheels of commerce.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    Hey John,

    I've seen you go up against a market before, and win. To this day people list the rights that come with a product. Every time I see that list I think of you. (a sort of I was there when it happened type of thought)

    The people who buy the products from blind copy get a really fast education - don't buy from blind copy, the products fall short of expectations.

    I once sold a product with no copy, all I had was just an ebook cover and a buy now button. The sucker sold like crazy, and p.o.'d a lot of people.

    In the mind of the buyer, with blind copy or no copy, your product will be able to work miracles. But when they hit reality, they'll have torches and pitch forks.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alminc
      I am happy that someone with trusted name like John Delavera
      is trying to stop the 'Blind Copy Gold Rush'. Newbies have the right
      to get true teachings instead of those 'magic methods' that lead only
      to frustration and disappointments.

      In my own humble effort to prevent newbies from buying this kind
      of products, I wrote this post that may be of help:

      http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post3192653



      .
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    • Profile picture of the author Geolina
      I think this kind of practise will backfire fast. I bought one of these WSOs the other day, it claimed to bring you free traffic without hard work. When I got it it turned out you had to write articles, and lots of them (there was a little more to it, but not much). I consider article marketing hard work, so I asked for a refund and that was it.
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      • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
        Originally Posted by Geolina View Post

        I think this kind of practise will backfire fast. I bought one of these WSOs the other day, it claimed to bring you free traffic without hard work. When I got it it turned out you had to write articles, and lots of them (there was a little more to it, but not much). I consider article marketing hard work, so I asked for a refund and that was it.
        :confused:

        I just wanted to comment if I may.
        This kind of mentality is what fuels the kind of products that are being pushed recently. Gimme it now.I don't want to work. Well. Then you don't want to make money either. Push button dreams are just that. A dream.
        -Will
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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

          :confused:

          I just wanted to comment if I may.
          This kind of mentality is what fuels the kind of products that are being pushed recently. Gimme it now.I don't want to work. Well. Then you don't want to make money either. Push button dreams are just that. A dream.
          -Will
          Will, 'work' has become a four letter word to newbies these days. They want all the money and the benefits that come from having an internet business, but they want to get all this on their own terms, i.e. while just pushing a few buttons.

          This simply isn't going to work, and you're right - this is the exact type of mentality which is responsible for the surge in "pushbutton" 1-2-3 type products flooding the market today. Newbies are craving a system that would work just like that, but unfortunately this simply doesn't exist in the real world.

          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author John Delavera
    During the last months of my military service I managed
    to get transferred to a "Battle Wing" closer to the capital
    - for accommodating my plans to study for my postgraduate
    studies.

    While I was there I noticed something was going wrong:
    soldiers were not fed according to the money reserved
    for that reason. In simple words, some people "were eating
    money." I started asking questions, suggesting things too
    that could improve our life there.

    One night I was approached in private by the "chef."
    He asked me with hostile eyes:

    "Who sent you here? What is your purpose...?
    What do you want to achieve??"



    As said I am not good in politics.

    I do not have kids, so maybe I see myself to all those
    new comers online, and want to alert people when
    something goes wrong. An IMer friend of mine said
    I am too sensitive for that business - I do not agree
    though, because "romantic revolts" generate good results.

    In regard to the blind ad per se: I believe that
    when it was introduced, it served its purpose and
    customers were happy with what they're buying.

    I shout here because, I am a consumer too (a good one actually)
    and also buy those products offered though "blind-ad-sales-letters"
    and I have been furious numerous times feeling I wasted
    my money. If ***I*** feel that way (NOTE: BY JUDGING ONLY
    WHAT THE SALES LETTER WAS OFFERING AND WHAT WAS
    EVENTUALLY DELIVERED,) I assume that frustration for new comers
    will be much more tremendous.

    I was watching the news and some people were protesting
    against a new law. A reporter asked a guy there why was
    he participating to the protest and if he believed there
    would be any result as a benefit. He said something that can
    be added here as my answer here:

    "I have no clue what will happen in the future
    but after years, when my son asks me 'Dad, what did you DO about it?"
    I'll tell him that I was on the roads protesting against it."

    So yes, I hate that kind of marketing.

    I am not sufficed by the fact customers can ask for a refund.

    I believe that IMers took the concept of the blind ad and
    today they're continuously raping it:

    - They use a sales letter ambiguous but effective enough to convert
    well and leave a profit after the refunds. I believe that eventually that
    kind of marketing and the complaints from customers will trigger
    the consumers' advocates (and also the banks) and bad news will be
    sent to the community of IMers in general.

    - The allegation that the product mentioned by the "blind ad sales letter"
    is "responsible" for the success of the IMers that sell it can be
    consider as a fraud, because in those sales letters the effectiveness
    of the "product" is "concluded" mostly by the OVERALL RESULTS
    IMers have with their business throughout all these years.
    This is WRONG. We all know that the no. 1 factor of success in this
    business is the number of JV partners one has and of their subscribers.
    Or just the money spent on advertising. We all know that results depend
    purely on the numbers:

    Send XXXX people to something that converts and make money.

    So what eventually those IMers do is to play games with the brains
    of the new comers by making them to believe that it was THAT
    PRODUCT that led them to success, while truth is either they
    spent a fortune with advertising or they have been promoted
    heavily by their friends.

    Furthermore, that kind of marketing "offends" the common logic
    of all IMers that do not use the blind-ad-strategy (for all the reasons
    mentioned so far.)

    Internet Law cannot protect right now the consumers the
    same way they could be protected if the same thing happened offline,
    due to the different and chaotic jurisdiction issues, plus lawyers' fees,
    and if you research about it, you will see that SELF-PROTECTION is the
    ONLY safe WAY we can protect our interests online today.

    Instead of trying to explain all the above to 1000s of customers
    it's better to "protest" against the "root of the problem," hence
    against the few IMers that currently use that kind of marketing.
    As it has been mentioned above, we cannot name people
    but we all know that the WF has been the school for the majority
    of the IMers worldwide, so I do HOPE my voice will reach the
    right ears.

    In conclusion Paul I cannot understand why should I have a purpose
    for posting here what bothers me in the community of IMers. This is
    the purpose of the general discussion here, isn't?

    Roger, I do not understand why "it'd be a shame" if "everyone
    jumped on this particular bandwagon" and what those "opposite results"
    could be; what I see instead is a big number of people that share the
    same disgust.

    Finally, as I stated in my OP:

    "I really need no answer of course.

    I'd share part of the responsibility if that kind
    of marketing affected more people. At least, I feel
    I made a tiny effort here by speaking up."

    I hope everything is clearer now.

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author Vogin
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post


    The entire publishing industry is dependent on blind ads. No, you can't read the material and then pay for it only if it meets your expectations. Sorry. You can't watch a movie and pay for it only if you liked it. You can't demand a refund from a university if you can't find a job.
    I'm afraid you should read Scientific Advertising by C. Hopkins, it might come to you as a shock that there still are honorable people who have no problems with doing what you've just described as "child naivety".

    Plus, you may have heard of that tiny community of P2P sharing and it's most visible representative, Paolo Coelho with his book "The Alchemist", who - supports people to get it for free first. And he still sold over 65 million copies. How weird is that?
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    • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      As for giving product away in the hope that people will pay for it, I suggest we call it what it is -- a guaranteed poverty program.
      Giving software away is the concept behind shareware. Some people have done rather well with it ... others fit your profile. The difference seems to be people who treat it as a business vs those who treat it as a hobby.

      But I don't think this is what was being referred to in the OP.

      Marvin
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    • Profile picture of the author Vogin
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      Everyone has read Scientific Advertising. That's why it is the most misquoted and misunderstood book in marketing.

      As for giving product away in the hope that people will pay for it, I suggest we call it what it is -- a guaranteed poverty program.
      I highly doubt that everyone has read it and moreover, I think that people are honest on my own and quite independently. In fact, I wrote an entire book about it.

      But I guess there would be no point of discussing it, would it? Obviously I want my business to give me back monetary results, but there are things far more important than money in this world - which brings us back to the OP's concerns.

      As an example, Adolf Hitler promised the German people he would give them jobs (ergo money). What he forgot to mention and what German people chose to overlook was that he did so by weapons industry and consequently, WWII...

      So you see, at times you need to forget about money and see the bigger picture.
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      • Profile picture of the author ExRat
        Hi Robert,

        And the problem is the droids see it as a cartel to be hated, rather than what it is a good business model to be aspired too.

        The real villains here Roger are the [deleted] of this world and the deceptive blind copy marketers that John is talking about, not the top group of marketers who have learned that they can make the most profit from wise use of their greatest asset.

        Having a premium list, creating premium products entitles you to charge premium prices
        ...and yet again you simply skirt around the issue and miss the point completely.

        You do know that 'call me Dave' has a plum vacancy now that Coulson has resigned?

        I'm sure that you're aware that in the past I have laid down four figures to try some of these premium products. I ended up refunding after an ample wait, because in some cases the product wasn't even ready and hadn't been beta tested and never became ready.

        The usual stream of unwanted bonuses came down the pipe in order to try and placate the raging hoarde, but to no avail.

        You suggest that these are all premium products of high quality which is where our debate falls down.

        My main point is that whether it's premium or not, there are parties who are misleading buyers and selling junk.

        Therefore it's highly hypocritical of the premium junk sellers to turn on the low-priced junk sellers and act all angelic and suggest that the low priced junk sellers are single-handedly ruining the market.

        You can talk about unrelated aspects surrounding the value of building a list all day long and how premium customers are delightful to sell to, but it's irrelevant to the point that I am making.

        Every time I see someone advising newbies to pay high fees to go to a seminar so that they can 'network' with the 'players' I'll send them to the droid so they can see exactly how 'B team' JV partners are treated and what kind of pitch-fest they are paying to experience - this is just one of the aspects of 'premium product sellers' that you seem to be conveniently glossing over. I won't list the rest.
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        Roger Davis

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        • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
          First, "blind" copy is not "lying" and those are two separate issues. There's nothing wrong with blind copy when used correctly. As a copywriter, if I have a good product that will work, I will push every button I can to get people to buy it. But I won't lie. If we could just lie, a lot more people could be successful copywriters.

          Originally Posted by Ron Douglas View Post

          I think it's a desperate sign of the times. I think there are 5 factors (IMHO):

          1) These marketers have based much of their entire business around launching new products.

          2) They aren't making as much as they used to with product launches because much of Main Street is still struggling and/or unemployed. Revenue is way down but expenses have not dropped in proportion.

          3) They're under pressure from affiliates and JV partners to put out products that convert well.

          4) They see other marketers do the same thing and get good results.

          5) They find a way to put the blame on the customers saying "we're only selling what people want to buy, therefore it's good marketing."

          Their actions make me really appreciate having steady profits in niche markets outside of the MMO space.
          Very astute, Ron. I agree with this, and it underlines that it's a multi-faceted problem that goes beyond just how someone decides to promote their own product.

          Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

          No matter how you "skirt around" it, lies are being let loose because there is no simple truth in the sales copies. So what if "the training deals with a method that can easily be found with a simple Google search"? If the product is good it will cover more than what a simple Google search will give you.
          Mike, you made this argument in another thread an it really doesn't have a place here. Your primary complaint seems to be that no one has an actual magic bullet for you to buy, and you are perpetually disappointed with the purchases you make while looking for it. If you're unhappy with the copy on something, don't buy it.

          Originally Posted by Don Schenk View Post

          Over the next 10 years, Joe sold a couple hundred thousand copies of his book with that blind Ad. The crazy thing is, he didn't have any back-end products to sell to his book buyers, and never thought to go back to his buyers with other offers. Duh!
          He DID mention he was lazy, right?

          Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

          I have no problem with blind copy sales letters. If you don't want to describe the product in detail, that's up to you. The customer gets to choose whether that's good enough for them or not. If it is, they'll buy it. If it isn't, they won't. There is nothing disingenuous or misleading there, as long as the "what it's not" list is accurate. If a customer chooses to buy something without knowing what it is, that's on them. Likewise, if the seller wants to cut his sales by not revealing what he's selling, that's on him.

          Lying, on the other hand, is different. Fake screenshots, misleading copy, saying you earned xyz with said product when you didn't, etc, are ALL unacceptable.
          I rarely agree with you, but this is actually very well said, and I agree with it 100%. Kudos!

          As for talk of the dreaded "syndicate" - yeah, I've written copy for some of those products. They are awesome products. If you don't like them, don't buy them. If you don't like the guys that make them, don't promote them. That will do more damage to a group like theirs than anything negative anyone could ever say. There's no such thing as bad publicity, after all.

          The guys in the group that are good guys will continue to succeed because they're good guys. The guys in the group that are bad guys will continue to succeed because they'd slit their own grandma's throat for a dollar. Which is pretty much the same as any other group I've ever been a part of.
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          Fair warning: It's possible I'm arguing with you because I have nothing better to do.
          Join my free copywriting group on Facebook: http://CultOfCopy.com

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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan Even
    I stopped buying from blind sales pages about 18 months ago.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      John,
      "I have no clue what will happen in the future but after years, when my son asks me 'Dad, what did you DO about it?" I'll tell him that I was on the roads protesting against it."
      As a rule, I've found offering a constructive suggestion or process alternative to be much more effective than "shouting so you can say you were there."
      As it has been mentioned above, we cannot name people but we all know that the WF has been the school for the majority of the IMers worldwide
      Oh? We've had quite a bit of influence over the years, but I'm afraid you give us far too much credit. And I'd wager you haven't a thing with which to back up that claim other than your opinion.
      In conclusion Paul I cannot understand why should I have a purpose for posting here what bothers me in the community of IMers. This is the purpose of the general discussion here, isn't?
      No. Random pointless conversations are the province of offtopic, not main discussion.

      I expect unfocused diatribes from people who are new and inexperienced. The frustration builds up, and they shout about it. That's normal.

      I do not expect someone with your intelligence, experience and ability to rant for no purpose. I expect a person like you to suggest alternative approaches and give useful advice on properly dealing with such situations.

      We have enough "angry young men" (and women). If that's all you have to offer, you assume your place among the inexperienced and unfocused. You can do so much better than that, John.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        At the risk of having stones throne at me, this thread reminds me of the
        little school boy who used to stick little girl's pony tails in ink wells. And
        then one day, somebody told him what a bad thing it was that he was
        doing, which he knew all along but did it anyway.

        But now that he was called out, he felt ashamed. So after that, whenever
        he saw any other boy doing the same thing, he'd get on his little soap box
        and tell these bad boys how bad they really were. He practically ran a
        campaign on it...just to make himself feel good and ease some of his own
        guilt.

        I don't normally agree with BHC, but in this case, he's dead on the money.

        If the sales copy is honest, it doesn't have to be a reveal all, tell all. Just
        don't lie. It is then up to the prospect to decide if they want to buy or
        not. Nobody is twisting their arm.

        Deceptive copy is one thing.

        Mysterious copy is quite a different story.

        Roger, I am also with you on the hypocrisy in this business and I hate it.

        My sales letters, to some degree, are mysterious. I don't flat out say that
        the prospect will learn this and this and that in it. If I did, who the hell
        would buy it?

        Am I part of the problem you speak about John? Maybe, but I don't
        apologize for it because I have never lied to anybody. The people who
        have bought my products and said they already knew this stuff and asked
        for a refund, I gladly refunded them promptly...in most cases within 5
        minutes of receiving their email...which usually came 10 minutes after
        buying the product. That's okay. They don't have a use for it, I don't
        want their money.

        Bottom line: You can't put all the blame on the merchants...at least not
        the honest ones. Sure, some are flat out liars. Some should be boiled in
        oil and castrated publicly. But some are just trying to put their best foot
        forward and make an honest living.

        John, I thanked you for your post not because I agree with it totally
        (though I do in some cases) but because I can see you're very
        passionate about this and truly believe in what you said. I respect you
        for that.

        But as Paul Myers so wonderfully put it...what did you expect to
        accomplish by it? Do you really think the dregs of our society are
        going to change what they're doing?

        They won't...but MAYBE if the customers were to say "I've had enough"
        and stopped buying these mysterious products, change would have to
        come because profits would stop cold.

        But the customers won't stop and we all know it.

        Why?

        For an answer to that, look to your daily lottery lines for the Mega
        Millions. Look to the casinos that are bulging at the seams. Look to the
        race tracks and the OTB places. Hell, look to the fricken airports in Las
        Vegas with slot machines that are standing room only...at an airport.

        The world in general wants a quick buck and they want to do it by doing
        as little work as possible.

        The other day, when it snowed, kids were walking around with shovels
        looking for work. When my wife showed them how much property we had
        and how much they would have to shovel, the one kid said, "That's too
        much work."

        That is your prospect for these mysterious, get rich quick sales letters.

        That prospect is never going to die because human nature, being what
        it is, is never going to change.

        You can cry for change, beg for it, plead for it and pray for it.

        You will die of old age waiting for it.
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        • Profile picture of the author John Delavera
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          You can cry for change, beg for it, plead for it and pray for it.

          You will die of old age waiting for it.
          Yep...

          And I'll have lived a meaningful life.

          Steven... as it seems, Paul, Roger and you represent the one side of the coin.

          I am in favor of the other side.

          I do not call your side silly or anything because I respect
          anyone's right to SPEAK UP when s/he wants.

          I assume you agree with me.

          John

          p.s. I DO thank the "other side" of the coin, because you ignited
          my will to DO something too. More soon.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jaz
            Well I disagree. I was reading your copy and I must say my method does most of that.


            For a little back-story, I've been working in IM for a little over a year now. I have a couple websites, so I thought I'd add my two cents.


            Now with my proven system, I know because I've done it most of my IM career, you can not believe how much money you can make. I have made consistently the same amount. It amazes me week after week this can be done.

            I can say, no experience needed. No HTML knowledge is needed. No work at all is needed.


            It isn't adsense, PPC, CPA (I don't know what accountants would have to do with it), it is nothing you have ever seen. You would be amazed how simple it is too.


            I'll let you in on my plan that gives proven results for nothing.










            Wait for it
















            My entire plan right now is to do nothing.


            It consistently brings in at the most 0 dollars a month. The plan is open enough to be done over an over again. I have done it a thousand times with consistent results and sometimes I don't even start until after noon. 1000*0 = 0.


            If I knew how to setup paypal, I'd be charging for the effective strategy, but it would break my strategy to do that
            Signature

            Looking to make my first million by the time I retire.

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  • Profile picture of the author John Delavera
    Paul

    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    As a rule, I've found that offering a constructive suggestion or process alternative to be much more effective than "shouting so you can say you were there.
    Notes follow.

    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    Oh? We've had quite a bit of influence over the years, but I'm afraid you give us far too much credit. And I'd wager you haven't a thing with which to back up that claim other than your opinion.
    Okay if you say so.*
    Allow me to stick with my opinion.

    *If I remember right, Terry Dean started from here... Yanik Silver too.
    Josh and Russel too. Willie too. Just some examples...
    I can create a list - since 1997.

    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

    I expect unfocused diatribes from people who are new and inexperienced. The frustration builds up, and they shout about it. That's normal.

    I do not expect someone with your intelligence, experience and ability to rant for no purpose. I expect a person like you to suggest alternative approaches and give useful advice on properly dealing with such situations.

    We have enough "angry young men" (and women). If that's all you have to offer, you assume your place among the inexperienced and unfocused. You can do so much better than that, John.
    Thank you for your trust Paul.

    As I suggest to my people:
    "Never assume anything; if you're unsure about something then ask."

    And... thankfully... what I have done so far helps me not to be
    placed easily or lite heartily "among the inexperienced and unfocused" IMers
    - I think & hope so.

    You will also agree with me that if my OP ended with something like:

    "If you agree with me, join me here _URL_ - it's free."

    ...then a mod could even delete the message without a second thought
    - and since you've been here for ages, you know it happened in the past
    many times; I never complained since I respect the final judgment of the mods.

    Now that I posted an opinion you say it's an ..."unfocused diatribe."
    No hard feelings of course; I'll catch the mods' tempo one day.

    What I see though here is a big number of people agreeing with me;
    I also received emails thanking me for posting this "unfocused diatribe." That makes me happy, because I feel I am not from Mars and somehow
    I touched a subject that worried many IMers.

    Now that I know... shall I DO something about that situation?

    YOU BET I'll do.

    That's what I have been doing all these years anyway and you know that:
    feeling the "beat" on people's heart and then DOING something about it.
    I assume that's what you do too.

    Again, thanks for your trust.

    John

    ps.1. Just for the records Paul: I ramble often when talking to my
    subscribers. Those that know me well, always find a connection between or underneath the dots. I understand this is a public forum, but I have
    seen many rants here. Additionally I could not say that the WF is full of
    focused diatribes either.

    p.s.2. If you add ps.1. to the all the above mentioned, I am sure you will
    agree with me that allowing people posting how they feel about INTERNET
    MARKETING
    makes us all better AND adds value to this forum too.

    p.s.3. If your personal opinion or your official position as a mod here is
    opposite to my ps.2. maybe it's time for me to forget the WF.
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  • Profile picture of the author bay37
    Open letter
    ...........

    in other words a blog post or a ranticle (rant-article) + what ExRat said (or not).
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    Just as a addon to this discussion the subject of blind sales copy was a big talking point on the marketers cruise last week.

    There is a big backlash from top promoters about it, and those most guilty of it are steadilly being dropped from those promoters list of exceptable JV's for future launches

    They are being given names like the manchester mafia etc.

    People with big lists are taking the point that this kind or JV hurts them and their subscribers. They see it as IM imploding if they keep on supporting those who are guilty of such marketing

    Upshot is their is already a mainstream wave of people who are determined not to support such promotions and launches anymore

    Robert
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    • Profile picture of the author Patrick Pretty
      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      Nothing wrong with marketers getting together in groups and selling each others products Roger. Thats called strategic alliances and is legititmate business deal between equal partners.
      Yes, it could be a "strategic alliance" and "legitimate business deal." It also could be reckless, self-indulgent, abusive, borderline delusional, anticompetitive, cartel-like behavior dressed up as common wisdom or the "new way" to do business -- all in violation of antitrust laws. I wouldn't buy a product from any of the launch buddies because I detest what they're doing and how they are doing it even if they're not breaking antitrust laws and not fixing prices. At a minimum, they are creating Stepfordians who worship what "works" instead of devoting mental energy to determining what's right.

      I felt this way long before the Droid came on the scene. The Droid hasn't shaped my thinking on these matters, although he has helped me refine it. The people who shaped my thinking were the launch buddies and their fawning cheerleaders and apologists.

      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      Incidently the subscribers are higher quality too, $2k customers are much easier and nicer to deal with than $47 droids

      Which incidently is why they also usually restrict the numbers for their products, 500 sales at $2k is 1 million dollars and they dont have to deal with a lot of people in their support system and they are easier to manage.
      Oh, this is rich, Robert. People who pay $47 for a product are "droids" now? Well, at least you didn't call for anyone to be executed with a shotgun this time. You have the PR sense of a swarm of killer bees.

      And are you REALLY going to try to claim that the mysteriously reoccurring, $2,000 price point and false scarcity are designed to minimize support and to exclude the problem-causing, whining droids destined to a life of bitterness in the $47 slush pile? Do you think that Steve Jobs might have some hard questions to answer if Apple, which has the ability to sell millions of iPads, decided it was going to sell only 500 -- and arrange for 10 competitors in the tablet-making arena that had met in a hotel room to get 90 percent of the money from those 500 sales?

      Think the world would wait with bated breath for Jobs' answer when he set out to explain to the Senate committee how other tablet-makers suddenly no longer were Apple's competitors -- but in fact were A-List marketing partners being rewarded for being astute businessmen who agreed to do a "mailing" and had been virtually assured of getting 90 percent of the cash from the artificial ceiling of 500 sales -- while Apple's real partners fought over 10 percent of the "B-List" table scraps?

      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      As long as the sale process fully outlines what the products are and doesnt just sell the dream on its own without substance.
      So, if 10 A-list marketers are meeting in a hotel room or over the phone to fix prices and declaring that the best ways to make money are to limit supply artificially and to form a bloc that results in just 10 marketers in a universe of hundreds of thousands getting 90 percent of the money from a given launch, it's all OK -- as long as the sales process fully outlines the product and they're not selling the dream on its own without substance?

      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      The backlash is against those that sell the dream with no substance either in the product or in the sales process.
      Is that what the backlash is against, Robert? Are you sure that's all it is?

      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      The syndicate bashing is not hypocrosy on the big list owners part, but on the part of the droid followers Mostly built on the emotion of jealousy.
      So, if one happens to believe the syndicate is a plague on the IM landscape, it naturally follows that the criticism is "mostly built on the emotion of jealously?"

      My take on your take is that it sounds a lot like the defenses raised against critics by Andy Bowdoin and the ASD crew -- right before the Feds moved in in 2008. I know you own a legitimate traffic exchange and spoke out powerfully against ASD and the evil of autosurf investment schemes, Robert -- and yet here you are using ASD's PR talking points to paint the syndicate critics as "jealous" marketers. (The Feds liked the "jealousy" explanation by ASD and its apologists so much that they reproduced it in a document that sought the civil forfeiture of $79 million. They later indicted Bowdoin for wire fraud and securities fraud and now are seeking the criminal forfeiture of $110 million. They're also policing up money from affiliates now.)

      Let me assure you, Robert, that I'm not jealous of the syndicate or the marketers who align themselves with it and perhaps hold the notion that the only good Droid is one convulsing in a pool of blood after a shotgun blast hits him in the gut. I wouldn't buy a $2,000 IM product (or a used car) off any of the syndicate members or their Stepfordian enablers. What I would do is attempt to amuse myself with the thought that they think they're socially significant because one or more of them knows Tony Robbins. While I wouldn't permit them to pet my innocent and virtuous dog, I would let them shovel the snow if they materialized in my driveway after a storm and needed a way to get warm.

      Then I'd send them packing down the driveway and call my neighbors to let them know that the reputed best IM thinkers in the world were in the neighborhood -- and that one or more of them knows Tony Robbins.

      And then I'd advise my neighbors to listen to no pitches, hide their innocent and virtuous dogs and/or pretend no one was home -- unless, of course, they were in need of someone to shovel the new-fallen snow and the innocent and virtuous dogs were safely tucked away in a place that made it impossible for the stench to attach itself to their fur.

      Patrick
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      • Profile picture of the author James Campbell
        Originally Posted by Patrick Pretty View Post

        Yes, it could be a "strategic alliance" and "legitimate business deal." It also could be reckless, self-indulgent, abusive, borderline delusional, anticompetitive, cartel-like behavior dressed up as common wisdom or the "new way" to do business -- all in violation of antitrust laws.
        Unfortunately my "thanks" button has mysteriously disappeared, but I wanted to say that is the most well thought out response regarding this issue I have heard in a long time.

        Thanks for taking the time to put it together, I appreciate it.

        James
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  • Profile picture of the author Paleochora
    Just the one short paragraph from Steven sums up the thread:

    "If the sales copy is honest, it doesn't have to be a reveal all, tell all. Just
    don't lie. It is then up to the prospect to decide if they want to buy or
    not. Nobody is twisting their arm."
    Honesty is the key here.

    One irritating trend is not mentioned by the OP and usually goes hand-in-hand with the worst of the blind ads is false scarcity claims.

    These tend to be out-and-out lies. Check back in a week and there is still 200 crossed out and a big red "only 27 places/copies left"

    Don't be fooled by crap. Ignore the tactics and look for the meat.
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  • Profile picture of the author bobsilber
    Originally Posted by John Delavera View Post


    The sales letter of that kind of product/s continues with screenshots
    of CB accounts... Although I did a search and there are solutions online
    that allow you to present fake results of Paypal, Clickbank, Adsense,
    I want to believe those profits reported are legitimate.
    I do not doubt the profits.

    John
    Some WSOs have been unmasked as fakes by astute Warriors. From fake screenshots to fake testimonials. Nothwithstanding the false claims that have been uncovered, many others are in violation of the FTC rules and regulations, legitimate or not, and just flying under, for the moment at least, the FTC radar.
    .
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    .
    .
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    Fact: The ppl putting these offers out are making a KILLING... as in making a LOT of money.

    Fact: There's one of these offers coming out after another. That means they're making money doing this...

    Fact: If they're making money that means a LOT of people are buying these things.

    lol.... who do you think is buying the stuff?

    you guys.
    Signature

    “Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.”
    ― Dalai Lama XIV

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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      Fact: The ppl putting these offers out are making a KILLING... as in making a LOT of money.

      Fact: There's one of these offers coming out after another. That means they're making money doing this...

      Fact: If they're making money that means a LOT of people are buying these things.

      lol.... who do you think is buying the stuff?

      you guys.
      Don't look at me. I don't buy this crap. Haven't purchased a "how to"
      product, other than stuff promoted by Paul Myers, in I-don't-know-how-long
      and don't intend to.

      So I don't know who "you guys" is referring to.

      Maybe you've got us mixed up with some other forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
    Gentlemen and Ladies, I had every intention of staying out of this discussion simply because there were so many varied opinions and responses, however I must confess that over the last two days I have invested 12 hours of my own time reading through provisions of the FTC guides, in relation to this very topic and I must say that if you are not aware of this document and its arguments, you should make your self aware of it post haste.

    The topics raised here involve the embodiment, of

    FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION 16 CFR Part 255
    Guides Concerning the Use of Endorsements and Testimonials in Advertising
    For a number of reasons, the most of which is the below statement, and before I continue I will state this for the record, this is not legal advice, if you feel you need such advice you should seek it from a competent practicing attorney in your unique jurisdiction.

    "The effect of the revision at issue is to treat ads that use testimonials the same as all other ads. Section 5 of the FTC Act requires advertisers to have substantiation for the messages that consumers reasonably take from their ads, which means they must first know what messages consumers take away from those ads."

    While it would seem to be self explanatory, the intent here is clear, advertising will be regulated, if self regulation fails, when you look at the preceding statement, you can see just how dangerous this could get for the Internet Marketer,

    To make this plain, yes, this means you, the Internet Marketer
    I want to ask if anyone thinks this is funny or a waste of time?

    in the OP opening statement, the idea that deception involving "Blind Copy" or other uses of copy that may not be completely honest in its statements, are I believe fair and warranted, the largest consideration here is this, In Advertisements, (sales copy) are we responsible for what takes place here and with regard to what we say and or publish here either in forms of posts, or forms of testimonials, which I expect you will find in great number in the WSO section right now today.
    From the OP opening statement,
    (which I must say does appear to bring up for public debate the reflection that the potential for deception as outlined by the FTC guides is and could be taking place not only here but many different places on the internet.)

    The sales letter of that kind of product/s continues with screenshots
    of CB accounts... Although I did a search and there are solutions online
    that allow you to present fake results of Paypal, Clickbank, Adsense,
    I want to believe those profits reported are legitimate.
    I do not doubt the profits.
    I doubt

    - that kind of copy writing
    - that kind of product that promises the heaven
    - that kind of ambiguous money and soul sucking marketing

    To my surprise, that kind of marketing has affected many best "families"
    of IMers too. I can hardly believe in what I am reading in messages
    sent by "friends."

    Hence I'd like to give a shout here, hoping that some people
    will get a flash in their brain and help others to avoid this
    kind of marketing... and loop the helping cycle too.
    Let me say that I can understand and agree with the idea that as a buyer I have been deceived by deceptive advertising and deceptive sales copy on a number of occasions, I rather suspect that a large number of others have had a similar experience. We chalk it up to learning the ropes of the trade, but we do not say that it is what we would do to another man, No, that would be deceptive and two wrongs do not make a right. There is a problem, how can we fix it, Should we try to fix it, do we have a duty to voice our concerns? these are all valid questions, and frankly I believe that at the very least we have a duty to discuss it, in the end, of course this is a business and as such there is really only one person that will have the final say, which is only appropriate, as that is the way it is.

    I just want to join in with John in saying that we must do a better job of being an Internet Marketer, we must endeavor to produce better products, we must try to better what we say and do, it is what separates us from the criminal element, which is undeniable and is present in much larger quantities, in other places online, which at some point in the future you will see some very unpleasant things happen to them.

    I say this not as referring to this forum but as a whole the body of Marketers, both in our websites, our marketing efforts, and our collective aspirations, as Marketers, this is not just the warrior forum, it is collectively a lot more than that, we choose to meet here and have discussions, here, we choose to buy products here, we choose to have friends here, we choose to be here, and I applaud and am grateful that we have the opportunity to speak openly without fear of being beaten or stoned.

    However, I want to make it clear that the point I want to make here is that we are more than just a forum, we are more than just an email or a website, we are people, we are humans, we have that condition that makes us unique.

    I want to say that I thank, John Delavera for taking so much of his personal time to communicate what has been an ongoing problem.
    One that has been raised before and likely will be raised again, however, the time to take action is upon us.



    For many reasons, but the most important one is this, if by taking no action we allow this practice of (alleged deception) by testimony, or endorsement, or just plain advertisement, (sales copy) to continue, legal issues could result, and that would not only effect marketing here but also else where on the Internet. Social networking, Social Media, what is referred to as New Media, collectively and effectively includes this forum and every website on the internet.

    I feel it is not only appropriate to discuss self regulation, but to take valid actions to prevent this type of alleged, deception, in what ever forms it might require, to continue to allow this type of alleged deception, (and we know what this is,)

    would be reckless and irresponsible.

    It is plain that regulation of the internet, is nearly here, it would be foolish to ignore the writing on the wall and simply flame and bash anyone who brings forward a problem that should be addressed.

    I fully realize that this is a business and it is not my business, so before anyone reminds me that this is none of my business, I wanted to point out that the FTC does not view it that way, the FTC sees it in an entirely different view point and that point of view should be examined and carefully considered, does it effect you and what you are doing, I do not know, it might but you need to find that out for yourself, I cannot pretend to offer you advice because I do not know your individual situation, but we do know deception when we see it, likely the FTC does as well, keep that in mind.


    You can judge for yourself, I include the following excepts, as a staging ground for issues that should be considered. I do not consider it my responsibility to pass judgment or to suggest any such thing, I merely say that to continue in the path that we are on would be madness.

    I cannot cover every aspect of the documents, both original and revised documents are available for your review, but I found a number of provisions that were of particular interest to the Internet Marketer.

    I would invite you to read more at my warrior blog, simply because it is going to be a long Exposition and I am not even sure if I can adequately preface, this though I will now, disclaim that I do not make any warranty, expressed or implied, or assumes any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information, product, or process disclosed, or represents that its use would not infringe on privately owned rights. Reference herein to any specific commercial products, process, or service by trade name, trademark manufacturer, or otherwise, does not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement, recommendation, or favoring by myself or any representative. The opinions of the authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of myself or my associates and shall not be used for advertising or product endorsement purposes.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Robert,

      Nothing wrong with marketers getting together in groups and selling each others products Roger. Thats called strategic alliances and is legititmate business deal between equal partners.
      I agree Robert.

      But what you have presented there is a deliberately selective and simplistic view of the actual matter at hand.
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      • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi Robert,



        I agree Robert.

        But what you have presented there is a deliberately selective and simplistic view of the actual matter at hand.
        I dont believe it is Roger, unlike most droids i have spoken to some of them. I know their philosophy. Its that they have this very valuable asset which they have spent a great deal of time effort and money creating (thier list)

        Its so valuable they refuse to use it promoting low cost or low value products. They believe they have the right to use it in a way that gets them maximum return for their investment in time and effort and money.

        I cant argue with that line of thinking.

        Its not a closed group either, if you have a high quality product at a premium price and you can get to to talk to them they will promote it.

        Here is another thing most people dont understand, not all lists are equal (even if the numbers are the same) they know that if they mail for someone they are going to lose subscribers doesnt matter what the product is or its price point.

        If they are going to mail out and lose some of their susbcribers they want to know that they are getting the maximum return for that loss.

        They also know that when the mailing is reciprocated they are going to get back equal value subscribers from their partners.

        A list thats used to buying $47 products isnt as productive as a list thats used to paying $1997, which is why the subscribers on the $47 list isnt as equal as thier subscribers.

        Its the difference between walmart (asda) and marks and spencers Roger. M&S ads are aimed at people with money, and the lure is high quality not ordinary.

        Incidently the subscribers are higher quality too, $2k customers are much easier and nicer to deal with than $47 droids

        Which incidently is why they also usually restrict the numbers for their products, 500 sales at $2k is 1 million dollars and they dont have to deal with a lot of people in their support system and they are easier to manage.

        And I have to say they dont usually aim their products at newbies either, they are normally aimed intermediate marketers who already have a system and a business that thier products can be slotted into.

        And the problem is the droids see it as a cartel to be hated, rather than what it is a good business model to be aspired too.

        The real villains here Roger are the [deleted] of this world and the deceptive blind copy marketers that John is talking about, not the top group of marketers who have learned that they can make the most profit from wise use of their greatest asset.

        Having a premium list, creating premium products entitles you to charge premium prices
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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

          Its the difference between walmart (asda) and marks and spencers Roger. M&S ads are aimed at people with money, and the lure is high quality not ordinary.

          Incidently the subscribers are higher quality too, $2k customers are much easier and nicer to deal with than $47 droids

          Which incidently is why they also usually restrict the numbers for their products, 500 sales at $2k is 1 million dollars and they dont have to deal with a lot of people in their support system and they are easier to manage.

          And I have to say they dont usually aim their products at newbies either, they are normally aimed intermediate marketers who already have a system and a business that thier products can be slotted into.

          And the problem is the droids see it as a cartel to be hated, rather than what it is a good business model to be aspired too.

          The real villains here Roger are the salty droids of this world and the deceptive blind copy marketers that John is talking about, not the top group of marketers who have learned that they can make the most profit from wise use of their greatest asset.

          Having a premium list, creating premium products entitles you to charge premium prices
          This approach by the top echelon marketers that emphasizes quality over quantity has a far higher chance of succeeding in the long term.

          By targeting non-newbies who have the highest chance of succeeding with their products, they will build a raving list of high quality prospects who will readily buy their future products when released.

          And they can also sleep well at night even though they are selling their products at premium prices, because they're delivering true value that can be felt and experienced by their customers.

          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author suemax
            Well said! At the end of the day, quality will out. Give quality, over-deliver perhaps, and people will tell other people about the product they are glad they bought, and more sales will result without more marketing effort. Same as any marketing - WOM is the best.

            I've just been on another (excellent) thread about "which product have you bought which you are particularly pleased with". Check it out - fab thread and complementary to this one in a great number of ways.
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            Master Resale Rights are so versatile, and these are educational, too. All kinds of IM material. Read, sell, break up into articles, combine into bundles, and there are 250 of them, complete with MRR, here for a bargain price! I'm even throwing in the sales page. Only £37 for Warriors. http://www.250mrrproducts.com

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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    Clickbank need to tighten their belt and stop approving so much rubbish. It seems they are just as greedy as the people putting these products together.
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    • Profile picture of the author OnlineMasterMind
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      Clickbank need to tighten their belt and stop approving so much rubbish. It seems they are just as greedy as the people putting these products together.
      YES! Clickbank should STOP allowing people to sell products that people want to buy.

      You figured it out!
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    well with the 4 hour week in Vogue it's hardly surprising..if you work more than 40 minutes day your an idiot these days....


    Will, 'work' has become a four letter word to newbies these days. They want all the money and the benefits that come from having an internet business, but they want to get all this on their own terms, i.e. while just pushing a few buttons.
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  • Profile picture of the author sloanjim
    oh ok so let's start selling Crack then ...ticks all your boxes so you are saying it's fine?

    Typical........"if it makes money...who cares..."

    Fact: The ppl putting these offers out are making a KILLING... as in making a LOT of money.

    Fact: There's one of these offers coming out after another. That means they're making money doing this...

    Fact: If they're making money that means a LOT of people are buying these things.

    lol.... who do you think is buying the stuff?

    you guys.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    to patrick and roger your replies rank in the ridiculous to troll category, and i said my piece above and stick to it

    The steve jobs point is a blatent red herring to make an invalid point, the scarcity isnt false its real. they may be able to physically sell more but they choose not to for the reasons given.

    None of them want to be apple or have the responsibility that an organisation like that brings with it. For most people in Im its all about the life style... work when you need money and stop working when you dont

    Apple and steve jobs have employees to feed, and shareholders to keep happy

    And right now steve is taking a sabbatacal because of health reasons, i presume because of the pressure and responsibility that such an organisation puts on him

    if he was in IM he could work when he needs money and chill out when he doesn't

    I'm just glad i dont have to suffer the intensity and hatred that you two guys have in your lives. good luck with that

    OH the PR comment I'm real happy for people to see my thoughts on this, I consider it good PR to be seen speaking out against against hatred and bigotry.
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    • Profile picture of the author Thomas Belknap
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      to patrick and roger your replies rank in the ridiculous to troll category, and i said my piece above and stick to it
      I don't think they are trolling at all Robert.

      It is known that a group of marketers get together and collude on pricing. Sure, they sell at the $2k price range and need to use scarcity in order to sell out (which seems to be getting more and more difficult since i am still receiving emails for MBS).

      I believe you are missing Patrick's and Roger's points because you are too biased at people with a difference of opinion. You only want to see jealousy and hatred when someone disagrees with price fixing and scarcity tactics to help push that collusion.

      It isn't a model that people should be striving for.

      My products are priced a lot higher then the "$47 Droids". I still don't feel the need to call up a bunch of marketers, set all our products at the $2k prices range, and promote each other.

      I think everyone should be selling high priced products. Only if they are valued higher then the price. Roger even stated the high priced offers he purchased wasn't even completed. So how is the good value for your money?

      I have went back and forth on selling a certain amount of my main product. I do like the fact that I can concentrate more on product development instead of supporting a mass amount of customers. I haven't decided but that is a legitimate reason and I agreed that some may limit the amount sold because of it.

      That isn't what Roger and Patrick was talking about. One marketer using it to lower his support (I sell software which can be support intensive) compared to a group of marketers who get together and discuss how to promote each other's products, how to set the price, and how to sell out fast is starting to cross the line.
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    • Profile picture of the author Patrick Pretty
      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      The steve jobs point is a blatent red herring to make an invalid point, the scarcity isnt false its real. they may be able to physically sell more but they choose not to for the reasons given.
      No, Robert, the Steve Jobs' illustration is not a blatant red herring and your response does not invalidate the point I was making. The IM syndicate is artificially reducing supply by predetermining that the sales ceiling is 500 units, creating a narrow window in which the sales can be recorded and virtually preordaining who gets the money from the sales -- and then moving on to the next launch.

      It looks like a monopolist wedge dressed up as a legitimate business model. I don't see it as a practice anyone concerned about the future of IM should embrace or emulate. I see it as a virtual dare for regulators to start keeping copious notes.

      If Apple and its competitors were employing the purported wisdom of the IM syndicate, the first A-List launch would find HP (and nine other tablet-makers) selling for Apple. The next A-List launch would find Apple (and nine other tablet makers) selling for HP. By the time all of this comes to an end, 10 competitors that had magically redefined themselves as strategic partners will have found themselves selling the products of their competitors and benefiting from 90 percent of the sales -- while the small players in the sales channel (the B-Team) will have found themselves fighting over 10 percent of the table scraps.

      Each A-Team tablet-maker will have found itself the focus of one launch during a predetermined launch cycle, with a "sold out" banner vainly (but gloriously) posted after each launch to remind the artificially starved prospect base that it had to press the buy button quicker next time if it wanted a tablet computer. Under your logic, any tablet-seller who spoke out about the practice would be jealous -- and perhaps even a hate-filled bigot.

      In the real world, some of the folks you paint as jealous haters and whiners would pick up the phone and call a lawyer such as David Boies. A lawyer such as Boies would sprint down to the federal courthouse to get a Temporary Restraining Order to block the next scheduled launch in which the tablet-makers had redefined themselves as strategic partners (after meeting in a hotel room or calling/emailing each other to discuss/set a mysteriously reoccurring $2,000 price point and setting other artificial numbers such as a ceiling of 500 sales).

      A lawyer such as Boies might argue that a price-fixing conspiracy and other trade restraints were under way -- and that the beneficiaries were the tablet-making A-Listers who had agreed to do a "mailing," had limited the ceiling to 500 units per launch, had agreed to a launch schedule -- and had a team of B-Listers bizarrely clouding the issue by calling others in the marketing channel jealous haters and bigots.

      Who knows? A lawyer such as Boies might even point out that the new "system" bore some of the characteristics of a racketeering enterprise and that there had been attempts to chill critics by suggesting not only that they were jealous haters and bigots, but also by suggesting that taking a scattergun to them always was an option.

      On a side note, I find it interesting that the math more or less works out to $1 million per launch when all sales are considered. Why $1 million? Why not $312,622 or $1.23 million or $4.67 million or a number that could not be predetermined? Why precise lots of 500 units? You seem to be suggesting that both the $2,000 price point and the ceiling of 500 units are related. Why the need to marry those two figures to produce a launch amount that totals $1 million?

      Another of the reasons it's interesting is that it tends to invalidate the purported conventional wisdom -- a purported conventional wisdom popularized by some of the syndicate members -- that it's not a good idea to leave money on the table.

      Oddly, some of the same folks holding forth about not leaving money on the table are leaving vast sums of money on the table by artificially restricting sales and by preaching the gospel of closing the sales window quickly.

      Maybe a lawyer such as David Boies might feel compelled to point that out, too. And perhaps a lawyer such as Boies also might feel compelled to speculate publicly that the real reason the sales ceiling had been reduced to 500 units per launch was so the A-Listers could avoid devoting real resources to R&D and avoid performing appropriate testing of the products, avoid hiring employees who created an additional cost center for both wages and training -- and would become a both a drag on profits and potential witnesses as the plan proceeded from launch to launch.

      Perhaps a lawyer such as Boies could argue persuasively that the tablet-makers had decided that the best way to make money was to enter a price-fixing conspiracy and become a monopolist wedge, transitioning virtually overnight from otherwise unrelated companies and reputable competitors to fly-by-night, seat-of-the-pants operations that mapped out the plan on a whiteboard or a cocktail napkin from a casino bar in Las Vegas.

      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      None of them want to be apple or have the responsibility that an organisation like that brings with it. For most people in Im its all about the life style... work when you need money and stop working when you dont
      I agree that none of them want to be Apple; it would require too much of a commitment to innovation and excellence and keeping regular business hours, and perhaps would limit the follow-up plan of using telemarketers to contact customers and encourage them to spend to the limits of their credit cards for a murky "training" program. It also potentially could limit the opportunities to mine profits from continuity-billing schemes.

      On another side note, the "life style" message you mention in the context of this discussion doesn't paint a flattering image of IM product-makers, in my view. I couldn't imagine Apple planting the seed in any of its marketing that its engineers stop working and go surfing when they've made enough money for the year -- or enough to provide a carefree surfing window until the next A-List launch.

      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      Apple and steve jobs have employees to feed, and shareholders to keep happy
      The IM syndicate would have more employees to feed if members spent any real money on R&D, hiring, training and innovation. They won't want to do that, in my view, because real R&D and a support operation (beyond a skeleton crew of fellow IMers) costs real money. Besides, they don't want cost centers deflating profits and burdening the next launch. What they apparently want is quick money, apparently in easily divisible increments of $1 million -- perhaps enough to free them to go surfing for the balance of the year or until the next big launch.

      Along these lines, the "bonus wars" that reduced the value of previous $2,000 product to zero hasn't helped the image of IM product-makers. Imagine what would happen if General Motors sold a car for $10,000 with great fanfare one year but gave it away the next so it could help Ford sell its $10,000 car.

      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      OH the PR comment I'm real happy for people to see my thoughts on this, I consider it good PR to be seen speaking out against against hatred and bigotry.
      Robert, yesterday two terrorists who detonated a ball-bearings bomb in a crowded Moscow airport killed at least 35 people and wounded at least 185. A week ago yesterday, someone planted a backpack bomb along the route of the Martin Luther King. Jr. Day parade in Spokane, Wash. Just a little over two weeks ago an apparent madman attempted to assassinate a member of the U.S. Congress and ended up killing a federal judge and five others, including a 9-year-old girl. Nineteen people were shot in the attack.

      Real hate, bigotry and madness exist in this world; I write about it on my Blog.

      I also write about how fraud schemes on the Internet now are creating victims that law enforcement is counting by the tens of thousands. There are enough victims in certain cases to fill entire sports stadiums. One of my principal concerns is that criminals/terrorists have tapped into online marketing channels to fund any number of nefarious enterprises.

      Knowing who your marketing partners are -- and how they are selling your offer -- is perhaps the greatest challenge facing IM today. An enterprise can be wholly honest at the top, and yet be filled with scammers across the sales channel. An enterprise also can be wholly dishonest at the top, and yet filled with honest brokers across the sales channel. (An example of this is when a huckster makes an appeal to religion and deliberately targets trusting people of faith to aid in popularizing a profit "opportunity" and making it go "viral.")

      There is no doubt -- absolutely none -- that some enterprises are filled from top to bottom with criminals and hucksters. (They're the ones creating enough victims to fill sports stadiums.)

      I believe that certain forms of IM and affiliate marketing are creating an untenable security challenge for many of the governments of the world -- local, regional, provincial, state, national and international. These situations exist; they are not a figment of the imagination, and some of them are being driven by hatred -- REAL hatred.

      In my view, you are doing a disservice to the IM trade by positioning critics of certain IM practices as jealous haters and bigots, Robert. Accusing a critic of bigotry is becoming an increasingly common approach aimed at chilling them. I think it's unbecoming of you to offer hatred and bigotry as reasons certain websites, Blogs and posters/commentators are speaking out against some highly questionable marketing practices.

      Honestly, Robert, I hope you take a step back to reexamine how you're "defending" the trade. Your form of "advocacy" creates a pox across the IM landscape and also dilutes the real meaning of words such as "hatred" and "bigotry." They should be used in only a precise context, and IM criticism isn't such a context.

      Patrick
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  • Profile picture of the author Apolo
    It's going to be awhile before the tide or this type selling shifts to real products that actually works. Click bank should be banning this stuff... Im sure they have some kind of policy of refund percent to actual sales, to cut them off..
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  • Profile picture of the author Jay D
    IMO this is not just about blind copy...it's about Ethics and people seem to have forgotten that!
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Robert,

      to patrick and roger your replies rank in the ridiculous to troll category
      Perhaps the mods could move our replies to this category of the forum?

      I'm just glad i dont have to suffer the intensity and hatred that you two guys have in your lives. good luck with that
      It's intensity and love Robert. You're looking at it backwards.

      I consider it good PR to be seen speaking out against against hatred and bigotry.
      Perhaps you should launch a charity - the RSPHBIMG - The Robert Society for the Prevention of Hatred and Bigotry against Internet Marketing Gurus.
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  • Profile picture of the author Duy Nguyen
    I don't know why but I tend to believe in the "how I made $1000 a week at first" ads rather than "how I made over $300,000 in a month" ones. Maybe because I only believe in hard work like John. And when I getting started with IM on October, 2010, I've seen hundreds of those ads, but nothing made me a good impress when all I see was clickbank's accounts photographs with at least $5,000 a day LOL!

    Anyway, thanks for sharing John
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by Duy Nguyen View Post

      I don't know why but I tend to believe in the "how I made $1000 a week at first" ads rather than "how I made over $300,000 in a month" ones. Maybe because I only believe in hard work like John. And when I getting started with IM on October, 2010, I've seen hundreds of those ads, but nothing made me a good impress when all I see was clickbank's accounts photographs with at least $5,000 a day LOL!

      Anyway, thanks for sharing John
      Precisely, it is because you believe in hard work that you don't fall for these crazy income claims, which are simply too good to be true (especially when they claim that all you need to do to make these outrageous sums of money is to "push a few buttons").

      This sort of blind sales copy with outrageous claims is specifically designed to appeal to lazy people who basically want money for doing nothing.
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      • Profile picture of the author Colin Theriot
        Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

        They also use psychological tricks in their sales copy to place the responsibility for success entirely on the shoulders of the purchasers, removing any blame on their part (the sellers) for a lack of results.
        Crap sellers or not, you don't need to use psychological tricks to make it SEEM true that the seller has no responsibility for results...

        It IS true that no matter how amazing the product is, no matter how well it works, the seller has NO WAY of forcing the buyer use it properly, or even at all.

        Results (or lack thereof) are ALWAYS the responsibility of the buyer. Even if the result turns out to be that they made a poor choice of product, and need to pursue a refund, this remains the buyer's responsibility, and not the seller's.

        To imply otherwise gives these crappy sellers credit for having some magical power to force people to buy, and that's a power they simply don't have. If the buyer doesn't have the mental faculty to strip away hype and buy not based on pure emotion, but based on the facts at hand underneath the hype, than perhaps they shouldn't be making purchasing decisions at all.

        Yeah, I write copy that plays with peoples emotions. But underneath that layer are a few simple facts, like "here's what the product is" and "here's what the product does" and if you encounter a product that doesn't make that clear, ASK. If you don't get an answer DON'T BUY.

        The seller has a responsibility to do one thing and one thing only - deliver the thing that was promised. If they didn't clearly describe that object, they have a LOT of leeway. If they cannot deliver a promised feature, then you're entitled to a refund, but it's STILL the buyer's responsibility to pursue that result.

        Or do you disagree?
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    well, I finally came across my first real blind sales offer. a ton of hype, but nothing about the product, what it does or how it works. It is sooooo top secret that you can get it for $37.00?

    I can now appreciate John's OP.

    And for those demanding an alternative, there probably is none. Judging by the impressive list of jv partners, I have no doubt this product will sell in large numbers.

    The funny part is that there will be over 100 marketers promoting this product and I'd guess that 99.9% have never tried it before... but I digress.

    With the benefit of hindsight, whilst I am against deceptive marketing practices as a whole, I have to agree with John about this practice.

    Im has that stench of Wall Street about it... greed above all else...
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    I do so hate blind sales copy. I don't think there is anything wrong or unethical about it, necessarily, I just think it's dumb. It may work, fine, but for me to buy, it's not going to happen. I don't care what it's NOT about I want to know what it's about! But I am sure it can be effective to the seller, I just hate it since I see it all the time, now. At least give some kind of clue as to what the product is, otherwise I will pass. But I understand they are not necessarily marketing to me.

    I love topics like this, get to see a lot of arguments and many statements to roll your eyes at and pay attention to who says what so you can know who you'd like to listen to and who you would definitely not like to listen to at all.

    Oh, and Colin, what you are talking about is what in sales is referred to as financial logic (which I know you know, just saying). There's got to be some sort of financial logic for a buyer to buy, usually. That's a key part of the sale. But as you obviously and rightly state, selling is all about emotion. In sales they teach you that most of the time people buy something based on emotion, even a small emotion, rather than logic. People rarely buy something, especially something they don't need to survive, based on logic, alone.

    So if a lot of these products do not have much financial logic for most of the buyers they are probably looking to turn up the emotion to the breaking point. I think that's what some people don't like.

    In the end, the product could be absolutely fantastic and the best thing you'd ever buy, or it can be complete crap but if the crap product does a much better job on the sale page by selling with emotion it's going to do 1000 times better and yes that's just an arbitrary number, ha ha.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by redicelander View Post

      I do so hate blind sales copy. I don't think there is anything wrong or unethical about it, necessarily, I just think it's dumb. It may work, fine, but for me to buy, it's not going to happen. I don't care what it's NOT about I want to know what it's about! But I am sure it can be effective to the seller, I just hate it since I see it all the time, now. At least give some kind of clue as to what the product is, otherwise I will pass. But I understand they are not necessarily marketing to me.

      I love topics like this, get to see a lot of arguments and many statements to roll your eyes at and pay attention to who says what so you can know who you'd like to listen to and who you would definitely not like to listen to at all.

      Oh, and Colin, what you are talking about is what in sales is referred to as financial logic (which I know you know, just saying). There's got to be some sort of financial logic for a buyer to buy, usually. That's a key part of the sale. But as you obviously and rightly state, selling is all about emotion. In sales they teach you that most of the time people buy something based on emotion, even a small emotion, rather than logic. People rarely buy something, especially something they don't need to survive, based on logic, alone.

      So if a lot of these products do not have much financial logic for most of the buyers they are probably looking to turn up the emotion to the breaking point. I think that's what some people don't like.

      In the end, the product could be absolutely fantastic and the best thing you'd ever buy, or it can be complete crap but if the crap product does a much better job on the sale page by selling with emotion it's going to do 1000 times better and yes that's just an arbitrary number, ha ha.
      I think it is the blind copy that the majority of us take issue with. If a marketers talk in generalities and constructs their copy in such a way that the average person is left scratching his head about what they're offering (beyond just a magic pushbutton formula), then it's pretty obvious that this is designed to play on the emotions of the buyer, with a particular emphasis on greed in many cases.

      While not all sales copy uses financial logic, I've seen some that do - they try to justify the price and make it seem like you'd be idiotic for not purchasing it, especially when you could use it to easily get a quick 200% (or some other usually arbitrary figure given) return on investment made in the course, within just a few days.
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    I think it also plays on our innate curiosity, and need to find out the answer. Good copy works you up to a heightened emotional state... and to the point of dying to find out.

    Then, if the it's a $37 product.. who is going to knock that back?

    But wait, there's more....









    Upsells to follow.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      I think it also plays on our innate curiosity, and need to find out the answer. Good copy works you up to a heightened emotional state... and to the point of dying to find out.

      Then, if the it's a $37 product.. who is going to knock that back?

      But wait, there's more...



      Upsells to follow.
      Part of the reason why they put so much effort into the sales copy is because of the multiple higher-priced upsells on the back end in the sales funnel. Of course, the sales copy on the main page has to do the majority of the heavy lifting here, so it has to be written to a higher standard for the upsells.
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  • Profile picture of the author thomburlington
    ExRat and Paul,
    One point of John's post is clear. When an experienced marketer, who has a reputation for delivering good products and fully supporting his customers, cries out that the "would-be" emperors have no clothes, it helps the rest of the populations, especially the "young ones" be more wary and make better decisions.

    Also I have noticed many recent sales videos which start out with great protestations of corrupt gurus who are stealing form their competition, and misleading their customers, are actually those videos which are subject to John's criticisms - they protest too much, methinks.

    Of course it also takes discrimination to decide which products to promote as an affiliate.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Delavera
    Hi people

    I created a site where you can ask questions before buying an IM product.

    I hope it will help us all.
    It depends on you.

    "Is It Worth The Money?" - Truthful answers from customers of products related to Internet Marketing

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author Andy Fletcher
    Everyone seems to have forgotten that there's a big difference between a rehashed product and a product that says the same thing as someone else's.

    There's nothing wrong with creating a product with similar content to someone else's. We don't just have one make of TV, one brand of bread, one type of shampoo. Competition is good. Competition is what drives us forward.

    A rehashed product is when someone reads someone else's report and just rewrites it in their own words with no experience of what they are talking about. This chinese whispers effect is where so many of the godawful IM niche products you see come from.

    So please stop lumping products that say the same things with rehashed rubbish in the same category.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gobala Krishnan
    Personally I dont think whatever anyone says here is going to make any differences.

    Launches are already planned and confirmed until July this year: Joint Venture (JV) Lists, Announcements, Blogs, And Community Forums.

    And it's usually he same people launching once every few months.

    If you factor in the time it takes to create a good product, and to market it, it's just not possible to be launching every few months.

    There is the answer in plain sight.
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    • Profile picture of the author pa321
      John Delavera gave me the opportunity to absolutely agree with him but i want also to underline one thing-In IM who is clean can launch the first stone estimated John.What about the DELAVO develop when ten or hundreds of owners of DELAVO 1.5 with chances to resell the hosted accounts where lived in the dark pushed to upgrade to a paid solution after that they invest thousand and more dollars?Why we bought a product that was promising to do wonderful things for us and then you change all the rules practically letting us down without any chance to get back our investment?The upgrade to DELAVO 2.0 was a smart move but smart for who?Only for you John only for you believe me and there are others who can confirm what i am saying if they are not afraid to speak against a millionaire in this field.
      So please before to come to the side of the cleans before to call ourself out of the game let see if the logic of profit never pushed us to behave in a at least opinable manner.Who is clean can launch the first stone estimated!!
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  • This is precisely the reason as of why all my sales pages display a lengthy video showing the product in its full range, so people know exactly what they're buying into.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      This is precisely the reason as of why all my sales pages display a lengthy video showing the product in its full range, so people know exactly what they're buying into.
      Amen to that. So do I.
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    I had the pleasure to work with someone for 3 years... highly success student of a famous marketer and master closer from the stage. I was privy to discussions behind the scenes and taught the true meaning of a sales funnel. The question was mostly what can we do to get more money from customers.

    I guess that's why they are master marketers.

    There was also a sense of boys club about it where they colluded on projects.

    It happens, and anyone who argues on here, guru, copywriter or whatever are delusional and only trying to justify their own actions.

    It's the bigger sucker, syndrome.. and it happens every minute of every day in IM.

    I mean HELLO... some of the most expensive courses are all about mind control and manipulation using NLP tactics.

    Selling the absolute truth is a one way ticket to Poorville. Whilst we can cry foul for being taken by these practices, the truth is that our customers do not want the truth. If they did, then these practices would probably not exist.

    when you have human greed mixed with human vulnerability, you have a lethal, explosive concoction.

    Always has been and always will be.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

      I had the pleasure to work with someone for 3 years... highly success student of a famous marketer and master closer from the stage. I was privy to discussions behind the scenes and taught the true meaning of a sales funnel. The question was mostly what can we do to get more money from customers.

      I guess that's why they are master marketers.

      There was also a sense of boys club about it where they colluded on projects.

      It happens, and anyone who argues on here, guru, copywriter or whatever are delusional and only trying to justify their own actions.

      It's the bigger sucker, syndrome.. and it happens every minute of every day in IM.

      I mean HELLO... some of the most expensive courses are all about mind control and manipulation using NLP tactics.

      Selling the absolute truth is a one way ticket to Poorville. Whilst we can cry foul for being taken by these practices, the truth is that our customers do not want the truth. If they did, then these practices would probably not exist.

      when you have human greed mixed with human vulnerability, you have a lethal, explosive concoction.

      Always has been and always will be.
      Of course. One of the cardinal rules in copywriting has always been to sell the sizzle, and not the steak.

      Any marketer worth his salt will do that. If you don't do that effectively, you'll fail to make sales and you'll end up starving. Of course, there are varying degrees to this, and what many are taking issue with is when the sales copy is absolutely blind and the target market has absolutely no clue what is being offered to them.

      For example, while Frank Kern is a master marketer, I've found him to be pretty transparent in what he offers. He doesn't just hide behind a smokescreen like these shady marketers selling their dubious "pushbutton" products.

      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author sal64
        Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

        Of course. One of the cardinal rules in copywriting has always been to sell the sizzle, and not the steak.

        Any marketer worth his salt will do that. If you don't do that effectively, you'll fail to make sales and you'll end up starving. Of course, there are varying degrees to this, and what many are taking issue with is when the sales copy is absolutely blind and the target market has absolutely no clue what is being offered to them.

        For example, while Frank Kern is a master marketer, I've found him to be pretty transparent in what he offers. He doesn't just hide behind a smokescreen like these shady marketers selling their dubious "pushbutton" products.

        Paul
        I agree with you Paul.

        I guess my issue is that the only difference is that some explain the product... and others don't.

        To be honest when deceptive copy and promises are made.. one is as bad as the other in my book.

        I have no issue with high priced products. If you are a true capitalist then your aim should be to maximize your income and profits. But do it ethically.

        I'd also be interested to hear if any of these blind products have turned out to be lemons or actually good products.

        Dog Poo sold as chocolate still stinks... regardless of blind copy or not.
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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by sal64 View Post

          I agree with you Paul.

          I guess my issue is that the only difference is that some explain the product... and others don't.

          To be honest when deceptive copy and promises are made.. one is as bad as the other in my book.

          I have no issue with high priced products. If you are a true capitalist then your aim should be to maximize your income and profits. But do it ethically.

          I'd also be interested to hear if any of these blind products have turned out to be lemons or actually good products.

          Dog Poo sold as chocolate still stinks... regardless of blind copy or not.
          Agreed. Deceptive copy and promises usually go hand in hand, and deliver the knockout punch that hypnotically compels the reader to buy, typically out of sheer curiosity and also greed (since every one of these products that I've seen is a MMO one).

          I'm sure you've also noticed that this combination of deceptive copy and promises seem to pretty much be the exclusive domain of the inexpensive $37 and low-ticket MMO products.

          While I'm sure that not every one of these blind copy products is sheer crap, I'd venture to say that the vast majority of them are.

          This is in stark contrast to many of the high-ticket products that I've seen recently, where they have to deliver some value and transparency right from the very beginning in order to justify a four figure price point.

          I doubt that many people would be seduced into buying a four-figure product based solely on seductive blind copy. This completely blind copy may work at the $37 price point, but it'd be an utter failure at selling something priced in the four figures - your typical prospects would need far more information before they'd really be able to make a decision, as this would not be an impulse buy anymore.
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          • Profile picture of the author sal64
            Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

            Agreed. Deceptive copy and promises usually go hand in hand, and deliver the knockout punch that hypnotically compels the reader to buy, typically out of sheer curiosity and also greed (since every one of these products that I've seen is a MMO one).

            I'm sure you've also noticed that this combination of deceptive copy and promises seem to pretty much be the exclusive domain of the inexpensive $37 and low-ticket MMO products.

            While I'm sure that not every one of these blind copy products is sheer crap, I'd venture to say that the vast majority of them are.

            This is in stark contrast to many of the high-ticket products that I've seen recently, where they have to deliver some value and transparency right from the very beginning in order to justify a four figure price point.

            I doubt that many people would be seduced into buying a four-figure product based solely on seductive blind copy. This completely blind copy may work at the $37 price point, but it'd be an utter failure at selling something priced in the four figures - your typical prospects would need far more information before they'd really be able to make a decision, as this would not be an impulse buy anymore.
            All very valid points my friend.

            The original point I was making probably did not have much to do with deceptive copy... it was more about what goes on behind the scenes.. as in every move is made not so much to help the client, but to offer a service that will extract maximum funds from said customer.

            It's pretty ruthless in my opinion, and the customers'best interests are seldom the motivating factor.

            Sadly, their care factor declines in unison to your credit card limit being reached.

            Off topic.. but hey, why not throw it in...
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  • Profile picture of the author John Delavera
    Before making this thread a protest against Delavo's Support
    I'd like to mention the following and be clear as crystal, so
    there would be no misunderstandings in the future:

    - "lowlands" is right; even if you are financially comfortable
    (or even a millionaire) you make plans for the future. The
    plans cost. The particular plan mentioned by "lowlands" costs
    one million dollars. I could create a video like this one
    or share my plan with my subscribers, tell them what I want
    to do ask for their participation to my dream.

    How this is related to the essence of this thread?

    - Everybody knows that Delavo is being available by
    Mark Joyner's company today. I have kept the
    ownership of the script, but Mark and his teams
    sell Delavo, promote Delavo and serve the customers.

    How this is related to the essence of this thread?

    I don't want to go in details here about Delavo....
    I'd say that all customers got it as a free upgrade... that
    Gold subscriptions have been given gratis to people, etc.

    Every person claims the authenticity of his/her own truth
    when a dispute arises, hence we can never reach a consensus.

    I am not saying I have done no mistakes.

    On the contrary: I welcome mistakes for learning myself
    and the world better and deeper. In fact I owe my position today
    to my mistakes.

    What I have NEVER done though is to give FALSE promises.

    I have been VERY SPECIFIC to my OP and yes I'd never post
    such a message if did not follow what I preach:

    * I have been always saying that money comes
    when someone works hard.


    * I never offered a solution I had not used before.
    In fact many people know that I use the tools I create
    and suggest them to people because they worked for me.

    * I NEVER forgeted how I started online... and that
    has been the reason that keeps me here. You cannot
    satisfy everybody (THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE) but you
    can focus on the satisfaction of people that love you
    for what you are and what you do.

    * I never trapped people by my suggestions, wasting
    their time by forcing them to watch step by step videos
    for a product I did not use. Thankfully I am not depended
    on a "business family" or a syndicate. I appreciate freedom
    and respect the right of people to reach their own financial
    freedom without tricking them.

    * I sleep well at nights and always have a nap during the day,
    knowing that there are people I helped.

    * I always tell people what the product does, and how those
    actions can benefit their PATH TO SUCCESS, instead of leading
    them to their personal hell making them feeling incapable
    for not generating the results I promised.


    And lastly...

    * I am not naive to believe I'd escape from the delivery
    of a fair similar payment that will eventually and without doubt
    will be treated by Universe's cause and effect bug-free harmonic system.
    See how my mistakes with Delavo chase me here for example.

    I hope everything is clear, so we can now focus on the subject of this thread.

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
    Oh dear God...

    Price fixing??? Anti Competitive Practice's? Evil syndicates?

    My lord fella's - we're talking about info products here. If I want to get a mass control knock off, I can find one in about 10 minutes in the WSO forum for 1/100 of the price.

    Or buy a few books on copywriting.

    Sheesh.

    The rest of this thread just give's me a headache.

    I'm outta here.

    Rob
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  • Profile picture of the author ejb2059
    Thank you for expressing your thoughts .. I agree -
    I've been using the internet for years to promote myself, my business, and recently I've entered the IM arena .. What I see is people chasing dreams and others getting rich selling them "star maps" to those dreams ..Vicious cycle

    Have we abandoned integrity and ethic to become a different form of predator?

    I hope not
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  • Profile picture of the author PaulMark
    Every market from IM to cars to grocer's have thieve, scammers and cheats.

    Every market also has their fair share of honest, authentic and ethical business owners.

    This isn't an IM problem, but a human being problem.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Originally Posted by PaulMark View Post

      Every market from IM to cars to grocer's have thieve, scammers and cheats.

      Every market also has their fair share of honest, authentic and ethical business owners.

      This isn't an IM problem, but a human being problem.
      Fair comment...

      McDonalds anyone?
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      • Profile picture of the author OmarR
        There is a reason why clickbank forces a 60-day unconditional refund... It's to avoid scammers. Good products will make customers happy and they will unlock their wallets for more, despite a few bad apples getting refunds just to get a free product.

        I would stay away from products with no support/refund policy
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  • Profile picture of the author InvestedSuccess
    Hey John, I'm brand new to IM but I do know exactly what you're talking about. I even considered investing into some of them, but something in my gut told me to do otherwise. Anyhow I just wanted to say thank you for the clarity! Great post!

    All The Best,
    Andrew Michie
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    • Profile picture of the author John Delavera
      Andrew

      Be sure that you KNOW what you are buying and you'll do fine.

      No worries - unless there is a reason to worry about.

      John



      Originally Posted by InvestedSuccess View Post

      Hey John, I'm brand new to IM but I do know exactly what you're talking about. I even considered investing into some of them, but something in my gut told me to do otherwise. Anyhow I just wanted to say thank you for the clarity! Great post!

      All The Best,
      Andrew Michie
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      • Profile picture of the author sylviad
        There have been an increasing number of marketing emails that take the same approach. Well-known marketers do it, which surprises me a bit. They send emails saying basically, "you just have to see this..." and perhaps a few lines about how amazed I'll be based on what it can do for me.

        Yet, there is no hint whatsoever what it is. Just a link to go and see for myself.

        These can be videos, free downloads, blog posts... new product launches, you name it.

        With so many of these coming through every hour sometimes, do these marketers actually expect me to drop everything and go look, when I have no idea why I should or whether or not it's anything I'd even be interested in? I have more important things to do.

        I don't know about everyone else, but I'd much rather visit links in emails that tell me what the thing is. In fact, if they don't say, I delete.

        How many others do the same as I do? What a waste of time and effort, but I guess if your name is on the list, the sender really doesn't have to do much. And I suppose that's the whole point. The less you can do to make a sale, the better.

        Sylvia
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        • Profile picture of the author lowlands
          @ John (and a little for Thomas Belknap)

          First let's get this straight. You ask me what bearing my remarks have on the subject of this thread. Thomas even called it a rant. I don't think it's a rant and Microsoft doesn't stop supporting software that is not even a year old. Moreover I and a lot of others based a business model on your software John. On exactly that functionality in the script that would be gone if we chose to get support and future updates. Now that sounds a lot like blackmail to me. As it is quite easy to let existing customers keep their updates and support

          But that is not what this thread is about. The thread is about marketing ethics. And that is a subject that interests me. Because I am (was) one of those gullible people - with an MA in management and organization mind you - that tend to follow a marketer that talks sense and buy his stuff. Like John Delavera or John Reese. But the thing is that you John (D) have let me and a whole lot of other people down.

          Therefore reading that you started this thread is somewhat like being punched in the face by someone for no good reason and then seeing that same person on the TV the next day as an advocate for better moral standards and against violence. This causes some cognitive dissonance.

          Your lengthy answer that tries to put me down as "nagative person" (a Mark Joyner qualification) or a "droid" (Robbert Putty) asks for a lengthy reply in order to rebuke some of your statements.

          How asking for participation in your Dream relates to this thread.
          Obviously you think it is normal to ask visitors to your site for money (donation) without selling them a real product. Since you are considered - by some - to be somewhat of a marketing guru I might take your idea and try to finance some of my dreams. I'll give it a try next week and ask the visitors to my boat building websites if they would like to donate some money to enable me to finance a Felder CF 741 (look it up on Google) for my boat building workshop, so my classes will become so much more interesting.

          But seriously. You are talking marketing ethics here. Asking your avid followers for money so they might meet you in person during semninars in the USA - that was the plan as far as I can remember - sounds a bit too Billy Graham or Pat Robertson (TV evangelists) to me.

          How Delavo and Mark Joyners company relate to this thread.
          I - and a lot of other people - have spent from $ 1000 upward on your Delavo script which was good. Then you joined forces with Mark Joyner and all of a sudden there is a complete change of plans and a major change concerning an essential part of the script. You left the stage and let Mark deal with all the complaints - or being negative as Mark calls it.

          After persisting in my complaints Mark promised that no one of the existing customers - many of whom had the same problem with the changes that I had - would be left standing in the cold.

          We - the Delavo customers - had or envisioned/started building a business selling a service to our customers at a reasonable monthly price. In the new situation our customers would have to pay hundreds of dollars per month for that same service. Our customers are mainly the newcommers or "droids" as Robbert Puddy likes to refer to them. These people can't afford that kind of money in start up businesses. Ergo we - the Delavo customers - didn't have customers of our own anymore in the new situation.

          Now the bearing on this thread. Shutting up your customers by removing their questions and remarks from the support forum sounds a bit like Chinese freedom of speech to me. You can say whatever you want as long as you praise the leader for his actions. Good marketing ethics? You decide.

          Like you stated yourself you are still the owner of the script. I would have bent over backwards if - I were in your shoes - to make sure that all of my existing customers got as satisfactory solution for their problems with the changeover. There probably were a few people that were happy but many felt they had been scammed.

          Bearing on this thread: The sales copy told a very different story than the actual situation did within a time span of only a few months (or weeks for some). That is not very dramatic if it concerns a $ 47 product. But for a 1000 dollar up to several 1000nds?

          You were in the position to tell Mark "solve the issue or no deal". Instead "silence". Except for the noise that your cash register made. Easy profits made from new comers? For some of them their last dollars!

          If that isn't "underestimating the value of people online" I don't know what is. Isn't that the kind of ethics you are referring to in this thread?

          Every person claims the authenticity of his/her own truth
          Yep that is correct. Only if there is a whole bunch of people who feel the same about something that's a bit stronger as proof that the train went off the rails during the journey, than an individual opinion. I mean if only one or two Algerians or Egyptians took to the streets. But such a large group?

          You welcome mistakes
          At the expense of whom I wonder? At the expense of the customer? You learnt a lesson and we lost. And it needn't have to be. It could have been (and still can be) easily fixed.

          Money comes when you work hard
          Yup, Most of us know that and experience it every day.

          You cannot satisfy everyone
          True again. People have all kinds of demands. But in a situation where the choice is:

          to let people have the product or service that you sold (promised) them and only change the rules for all new customers,

          Or

          to take away something that existing customers thought they bought is something entirely different.

          That is the choice between satisfying your customer or satisfying your business partner. People who had the original product were quite happy as far as I could tell from the forum posts.

          You never gave false promises
          No you probably didn't. I am willing to believe that you are quite sincere. But not putting your foot down and not taking appropriate action when you find out that something isn't going as planned (a whole group of dissatisfied customers) is not what I would call good customer relations or great marketing ethics. I can understand the problem if there is no fix. But this fix would have been so easy to implement.

          So my final questions to you John are: aren't you a little bit ashamed of yourself. How can you sleep well at night, knowing that there are people that gave their last money to you because they believed your promises of a great product with an inbuilt business model that could be sold at reasonable prices, who now have nothing.

          Because a child can see that the new proposition put to your customers isn't profitable. If you have to sell a product that costs hundreds of dollars per month to new comers. Not if your last name isn't Reese, Jenkins, Kern or Deiss anyway.

          That was a bit of my fair similar payment to you John. Hope you can understand my frustration hearing people applaud you speaking up when in practice ....
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  • Profile picture of the author Blindbiz
    I came to IM from the Business Opportunity and Franchise world. If you want to stop these guys it's fairly difficult. The FTC has a set of laws and 27 states have laws that all conflict. If you want to be a scammer move to FL or NV and you're pretty much free to do anything you want. I see offers daily that I know are 100% fraudulent, illegal or just plain stupid. If the FTC paid commissions I could be rich! They dive in sell a bunch and get out fast. If the get slapped, they simply get a new partner and start the scam all over again. There are guy's on late night TV who have been banned from having anything to do with "Offers" and he is still on TV selling a diet book. His initials are Kevin Trudeau
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  • Profile picture of the author webpromotions
    This is the 3rd thread popular thread w/ the same theme that I've read today.

    One was the guy who asked if it was OK to lie....TPW made another thread about the same thing....and we have this one.

    I just saw a WSO from 2009...yes, 2009. Without violating rule #1, it says the usual thing about "price going up after this week". It was for 12 bucks.

    I scrolled down a few lines to make sure the OP actually hadn't changed the price...there was a happy customer from 2009 who said it was a great buy for 12 bucks.

    I clicked on the paypal buy button in the OP...it was 12 bucks.

    Double standards going on? Is it ok to lie as long as its a WSO?

    Am I missing something?
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Doug,
      I just saw a WSO from 2009...yes, 2009. Without violating rule #1, it says the usual thing about "price going up after this week". It was for 12 bucks.

      I scrolled down a few lines to make sure the OP actually hadn't changed the price...there was a happy customer from 2009 who said it was a great buy for 12 bucks.

      I clicked on the paypal buy button in the OP...it was 12 bucks.

      Double standards going on? Is it ok to lie as long as its a WSO?

      Am I missing something?
      Yeah. The fact that we don't manually check all of those. Report it and it will be removed.


      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author John Delavera
    @ lowlands

    The positive thing is that you became active on this forum because of this thread.
    That's something.

    And as expected, it all ends up to Delavo

    Look around you.
    See what is offered in the market.
    Compare with what Delavo offers - for FREE through the core version.
    But that would spoil your illusion... right?

    > In the new situation our customers would have to pay hundreds of dollars per month for that same service.

    This is a lie.

    The worst thing is YOU KNOW it's a lie.
    Or you're have been trapped by your illusion and do not accept
    yourself to see the truth.

    Because the truth is Delavo's core version is offered for free.
    Because right now the GOLD lever is offered for $47 per month.

    Anyway... you seem to enjoy seeing the world through your own eyes.
    That's perfectly fine for as long you do not criticize others on personal matters.

    Do *I* behave like an "evangelist"??
    Come on...
    Your MA in management should allow you to research and be aware of
    people that offer their valuable services - not cheap.

    If you're in doubt though, just ask the people that got the chance offered
    and then play the judge again.

    Re: your question if I feel ashamed of myself.

    As I told you already I sleep perfectly fine at nights
    and I do hope the same for you.

    You can continue complaining here on how changes of the past
    do not allow you to reach your dreams; I'd suggest you to spend
    your time in a more creative way by seeing what you can do with
    the arsenal you have in your hands.

    But you won't do that.

    You'll keep feeding your illusion with your negativism.

    And guess what...

    There are tons of cases out there you could focus on that ARE related
    with the subject of this thread... there are TONS of sites offering
    NOTHING at all for a fortune and you say nothing at all. You keep
    dealing with what happened with Delavo...

    That's suspicious indeed and I won't follow you.
    For you this thread is just a super opportunity to shout.

    Oh... for I do not want you to cycle your arguments:

    You are right to feel the way you feel because changes
    happened in the case of Delavo - so you're right indeed.
    And you may be correct - other customers were affected too.

    But there are customers that do amazing things with what is offered.
    I am referring to those that upgraded to Delavo (for free, mind you.)

    Others see deprivation while some others see an opportunity.

    I'd suggest you to USE Fantasos (the version of D you have right now)
    and make money with the hosted accounts you can sell. Don't tell me
    you cannot do it because Fantasos is fully operational - all you cannot
    do is to upgrade it- and mind you there is no need for support since it's
    bug free. Nothing stops you from doing that, as nothing stops you from
    moving forward either and also help your customers to USE not only what
    you use but the improved version of the script you use.

    I'll help you more:

    Say you are 100% correct.
    I mean: you are totally correct.

    And I am 100% wrong.

    And yes, you have been "ripped off" by me in the past if you feel so.

    OK now?

    Is it OK now??

    Or not?

    Or would you like to have my head in a plate too?

    I think I am younger than you; please bare an advice:

    Grow up.
    Move ahead.
    Use your powers in a positive way.

    And allow me too to speak up for what bothers me too.

    John

    p.s. and do change your nickname - 'highlands' does not sound that negative.
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    • Profile picture of the author lowlands
      Hi John,

      You're right in your previous post: everybody has their own version of the truth, so do you.

      No, I don't want your head on a platter. But the realisation that even if you think you are right your customers can be of a very different opinion should be quite educational.

      The lesson that I have learnt:
      Rule 1: the customer is always right
      Rule 2: if the customer is wrong, rule 1 applies.

      If you don't live by those rules it's going to bite you in the behind at some time or other.

      Telling someone that they are just being negative is one of the all time great killers of arguments.

      And by the way people living in the lowlands are usually very positive and cooperative people who work together to keep their feet dry. We Dutch are rather good at that.

      It seems that you and I are not going to see eye to eye. So I'l shut up now and leave you to it. Have a great life.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Delavera
    @lowlands

    Never say never.

    Have a great life too.
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  • Profile picture of the author UKdave
    Hello good people

    Ive just watched a video on a pre sell page

    A 'buy thru our link and you get these bonuses when you email us the receipt' deal

    The video actually walks the viewer thru the steps of clearing ALL cookies

    This is "so you get your bonuses"

    How annoying is that? Many experienced marketers and affilates work hard & spend hard, sending traffic thru to offers & content which will place a lifetime cookie on the browser. Hell, Deiss Fladlien & others build and promote their affilate programs on the premise of lifetime cookies

    Then these yin yangs come along & encourage, nay, show step by step how to clear ALL cookies before clicking their affiliate link

    Geeze

    If I could name names, post links & swear I would
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    Valid points, the problem with IM, and why it drives many newbies away is the exaggerations people are willing to make
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  • Profile picture of the author NateRivers
    To the OP,

    Couldn't agree more. Whenever I need to puke or feel like being lied to, I just visit the sales page of one of the latest products.

    It really has gotten ridiculous.
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  • Profile picture of the author K_tir
    Amen! This is 100% TRUE!
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  • Profile picture of the author celente
    Very nice read OP and totally agree,

    It is getting out of hand, I agree with this. There are marketing tactics, and then there are lies. There is no fine line between the two IMHO.
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  • Profile picture of the author AndreVas
    John D deserves a winners award for creating the greatest eCommerce script of all time... Delavo.

    Combine every known eCommerce (both hosted and 3rd party) solution available today... and they're still 1/100th of Delavo's capability. And have at least 10 years to catch up.

    Complainers can talk all they want. I'm happy and grateful to John. :-)

    And to Mark... awesome dude!

    Funny how the most popular eCommerce scripts are those that pay the biggest commissions to their affiliates. And not the truly BEST, most powerful, customizable and feature packed.

    John + Mark should be leaders of Internet Marketing and ethics!
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    • Profile picture of the author Alminc
      Originally Posted by AndreVas View Post

      John + Mark should be leaders of Internet Marketing and ethics!
      There are too many internet marketers who try to brand themselves as
      'honest marketer' or 'ethical marketer'.

      Unfortunately, all such branding is still just a part of their marketing
      strategy, meaning they attract more customers and make more money
      playing that roll. Hypothetically, if being unethical as a marketer would
      become more popular among prospects and customers and if such
      branding could generate more profit, they would all start fighting for the
      position of the most unethical internet marketer in the world.

      However, there are some marketers who are more truthful than the
      majority, because that is the part of their personality that they can't
      change, but none of them is a saint. Internet marketing is not about
      being ethical, it's about making money.

      Newbies often think 'If such a big name is selling this product than it
      must be very good' and they keep buying crap fabricated by those
      big names. Yes, big names are selling crappy products, using blind
      copy or not.

      Therefore, instead of trying to find out how ethical is the marketer
      who stands behind the product, it makes much more sense to find out
      about the features of the product that you are considering to invest in.
      It's more important to know what you are buying than who is selling it.

      .
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      No links :)
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      • Profile picture of the author John Delavera
        Originally Posted by Alminc View Post

        It's more important to know what you are buying than who is selling it.
        Almin while I agree with what you're saying,
        that's a generality with no stable basis underneath.
        I mean, this cannot be a general rule for it can lead
        to tricky situations.

        Do you remember Joe Kumar?
        Would you *easily* buy a product from him again?
        I could do it just for giving him a second chance,
        but the WHO is what matters too - isn't it?

        If the WHO did not exist then competition would be
        much easier and all players would treat each other
        as brothers. What an ideal world - far away from the
        case though.

        Additionally, people create their history online and
        offline with their good and bad documentaries.
        Knowing WHO is the guy you trust helps.

        Of course, as said, I agree that WHAT the product is
        and what can it do for you is the number 1 concern
        but unfortunately or not what we do online has direct
        impact to our sales, hence the WHO affects sales too.

        Be positive.

        Remember how did you educated yourself too when
        you started online, how were you acquainted with the
        concept of "viral ebooks," WHO helped you too and
        you will see that the WHO plays a great role to the
        evolution of a marketer too, both as a seller and also
        as a consumer.

        Ideally there should be more helpful PEOPLE than
        helpful PRODUCTS - which is not the case I think,
        since "world" is not perfect anyway.

        Lastly, you know too that what makes the difference
        between a comet and a Star is the DURATION and that
        definitely has to do with an INNER quality that has
        nothing to do with any characteristics found in "products."

        John
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        • Profile picture of the author sal64
          Originally Posted by John Delavera View Post


          Ideally there should be more helpful PEOPLE than
          helpful PRODUCTS - which is not the case I think,
          since "world" is not perfect anyway.

          John
          Gospel!
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          Internet Marketing: 20% Internet - 80% Marketing!
          You Won't See The Light Until You Open Your Eyes.
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  • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
    Getting back to the main point made by John,

    I think a lot of the guys who create wso's and use the format highlighted in the sales page aren't deliberately setting out to mislead people. In a lot of cases they are probably doing their first or 2nd wso , and look around to see what's working for other people, see that several wso's are doing well with a similar format and copy that format.


    It's a lot like young kids following the example of the older kids in the playground, until someone takes them to one side and actually tells them that's not how to behave they think it's acceptable.


    so surely part of the problem is no one is seeking to point them in the right direction.
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    The Marketing Roadmap

    6 Simple Steps That Will Allow You To Build A Profitable Business Without Confusing Funnels, Ninja tactics or Loopholes"
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Wise
    Great OP and so true. For examples of what John is talking about look no further than the WSO Forum. It's seems like some sort of "right of passage" one has to have been ripped off, stitched up, hoodwinked, conned until the penny drops and you realise how the system works (or not as the case may be). Unfortunately it can take time and a lot of money before one sorts out the wheat from the chaff.

    There will of course always be "new meat" coming into the system to maintain the cycle of beginners (I hate the term "newbie") to part with their hard earned cash.
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  • Profile picture of the author Palusko
    There are some major problems with the syndicate, in order to consider it a good business model. First, it is clearly designed to avoid competition. You know - identify your top 10 competitors, and them join forces and promote each other. Mind you, it is based on the strength of the competitor, not necessarily quality of what they are selling. It sometimes is actually quite funny, if you are on several lists. Isn't it interesting to get several emails from different people, promoting the same product, and each claiming basically the same - great product, really helped my business etc.
    This leads into problem #2 - lack of trust. How can I trust an email that says "this guy's product is so great, it is all I use now", when I know that this email was sent to me as a part of syndicate cross-promotion. Do you really use the product? Is it really that good? Or you are just saying it because you two made a deal?
    Third problem is, that they promote each other, even though their products are actually competing. If I have a traffic generation product, and you have a similar product, is it really a "good business" for me to send my list an email praising your product? It seems kind of unnatural to me. Shouldn't I be concentrating my effort on promoting my own product? If it is about the quality of product, then yes, you should promote your own product only. If it is about the most money with the least effort, then no. Wouldn't it be funny to see MS promoting Apple, saying their stuff is just so good that they use it all the time. Or a CEO of Pepsi Co. going public saying, that Coke is the real deal. Because to me, this is essentially what the syndicate does.
    And interestingly enough, sometimes you may even receive promotions that are contradictory to promotions of the sender's own product. I remember getting an email about a one marketer's product that would make me conquer traffic from Facebook, only to get another email a few weeks later, from the same marketer, promoting someone else's product that claimed something in lines of "forget Facebook, this is the real deal traffic generation". Using the previous analogy, it is like CEO of Pepsi telling you, that Pepsi sucks, drink Coke.
    And of course, when the sender promises to give you his own product for free, just to make you buy from him his competitor's product - now that is just funny. CEO of Pepsi Co: "Pepsi sucks. I want you to drink Coke. And I want you to drink the Coke so much, that I am going to give you year supply of Pepsi for free".
    The syndicate could be the greatest thing that happened to IM, if the ones involved would join the forces to create the ultimate IM product. That's not the case though. Sure they share information, but it is info related to better marketing, basically to avoid stepping on each other toes (or, as it is called by most other people - to avoid creating competition between each other). They simply are the Allies with semi-different products, and different attitudes and agendas, but with a common goal - to make as much as possible, with risking as little as possible. Competition is a gamble, you never can be sure how it is all going to end up. They play it safe. Better one's wallet in the fist, than two wallets on the roof. No more winning the customer over by offering the best possible value. Now the mantra is to "share the customer". Seriously, can you really trust anyone who sees you that way? I can't.
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
      Originally Posted by Terry Gorry View Post

      in the real, offline world such activity is simply unlawful.

      Terry
      Here's the misinformation part, thats simply not true.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Terry,
        The point is that they are supposed to be competing, not colluding to screw the consumer/end user.
        This behavior, or what's being alleged, does not create an adverse impact on the consumer. There is plenty of choice of products on the market for the topics these guys teach.

        Now, if they started actively sabotaging their competition, that would be something to get the law involved with.

        If you want to discuss the impact of these partnerships on other businesses, that's a fair question. But on the end consumer? Not likely, at least not based on the promotional partnership end of it. Some of the copy may well be abusive and/or illegal, sure. But that's a separate issue from the anti-trust argument.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Terry,This behavior, or what's being alleged, does not create an adverse impact on the consumer.
          So when syndicate member A says, "I'm going to sell my product for $497." And syndicate member C says, "No, sell it for $5,000" (for whatever his reasons are)

          How does a price 10X higher, not adversely impact the customer?
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Terry,
        This quotation displays a tenuous understanding of anti-trust and anti-competitive laws enacted by most civilized, democratic countries around the world.

        I am afraid these laws go much deeper and wider than "actively sabotaging their competition".
        Of course they do, but that's not relevant to what I said.

        I addressed the point I think you're making (and correct me if I'm reading this wrong) when I mentioned the tremendous amount of other suppliers in the market. Crushing the competition by outmarketing them is not the same thing as manipulating the market in a way designed specifically to create an oligopolistic/monopolistic advantage.

        In this case, neither is happening. There's plenty of healthy and profitable competition in the same markets, and there is not, as far as I've seen, any effort to stamp them out.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Bruce,

          Telling someone to raise their prices isn't an anti-competitive action. As far as hurting the consumer, I see it differently. The higher price will motivate competition to get into the market, which should drive prices down, increase quality and availability, and provide for more options. And we see just that in this business all the time.

          The question of choice has to be part of the equation. No-one has to buy the products at those higher prices.

          Separately, saying that high prices are "hurting the consumer" in an argument about competition law leads directly to "If it's not free, it's illegal."

          Now, if those prices are artificially maintained by illegal market manipulation, you've got a point. I am arguing that this is not the case at all.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Bruce,

            Telling someone to raise their prices isn't an anti-competitive action. As far as hurting the consumer, I see it differently. The higher price will motivate competition to get into the market, which should drive prices down, increase quality and availability, and provide for more options. And we see just that in this business all the time.

            The question of choice has to be part of the equation. No-one has to buy the products at those higher prices.

            Separately, saying that high prices are "hurting the consumer" in an argument about competition law leads directly to "If it's not free, it's illegal."

            Now, if those prices are artificially maintained by illegal market manipulation, you've got a point. I am arguing that this is not the case at all.


            Paul
            ok im out of this thread Paul is doing a much better job than me
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          • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Bruce,

            Telling someone to raise their prices isn't an anti-competitive action.
            Again, IANAL, but I'm pretty sure it is. The CEO of American Airlines can't call Continental and say, "Look, we're killing each other with this price war. Let's agree to an across the board rate increase of 15%"

            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Separately, saying that high prices are "hurting the consumer" in an argument about competition law leads directly to "If it's not free, it's illegal."
            I see your point but that's not what I'm saying. If all the competition AGREES to a higher price, there is no free market and the consumer pays more across the board. The price should be what the market will bear, not what competitors agree to.

            Case in point, Syndicate member A had already decided $497 was a fair price for his product. When Syndicate member C convinces him to raise it to $5000, the consumer is paying 10X more than the producer felt his product was worth. How can you not see that as bad for the consumer? The only thing it is good for is to artificially maintain syndicate price levels, in violation of free market economics.

            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Now, if those prices are artificially maintained by illegal market manipulation, you've got a point. I am arguing that this is not the case at all.
            Ok, you're just arguing that you don't think the syndicate is doing that exact thing? Did you listen to the tape?
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Terry,

          Price-fixing is more than just saying, "You should charge more." I'm not at all familiar with the UK or EU's competition laws, so I can't comment on the status there at all. I am passingly familiar with the Sherman Anti-trust law, and some of the relevant case law. It's always tricky to argue that stuff even for lawyers, and more so for lay people.

          That said, I'm giving my interpretations of what facts I have in the circumstance under discussion. I simply don't see any of what's been demonstrated to have occurred as falling afoul of Sherman.

          I also don't see it having anything like the market impact people are claiming, or that usually has to occur for Sherman to be invoked.

          Worsds like 'collusion' are interesting. They have different meanings in specific legal settings than in common usage. I think it would do a lot of people good to be aware of those distinctions. You seem to be, but a notable number of the folks using that and similar terms in this discussion don't.

          As far as the size of the market, that's not quite what I was referring to. I was talking about the amount of choice available to consumers as alternatives to the higher-priced products. That IS relevant to the conversation.
          That is the end of my contribution-I think I have made my position clear and am rooting for the consumer/newbie and think I am on the side of the angels.
          I find this sort of comment fascinating, in an ad hominem sort of way. It tends to suggest that anyone with a different perspective is anti-consumer and anti-newbie.

          Really interesting turn in the conversation.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author paulie888
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            That said, I'm giving my interpretations of what facts I have in the circumstance under discussion. I simply don't see any of what's been demonstrated to have occurred as falling afoul of Sherman.

            I also don't see it having anything like the market impact people are claiming, or that usually has to occur for Sherman to be invoked.

            Worsds like 'collusion' are interesting. They have different meanings in specific legal settings than in common usage. I think it would do a lot of people good to be aware of those distinctions. You seem to be, but a notable number of the folks using that and similar terms in this discussion don't.

            As far as the size of the market, that's not quite what I was referring to. I was talking about the amount of choice available to consumers as alternatives to the higher-priced products. That IS relevant to the conversation.I find this sort of comment fascinating, in an ad hominem sort of way. It tends to suggest that anyone with a different perspective is anti-consumer and anti-newbie.

            Really interesting turn in the conversation.


            Paul
            Paul, you hit the nail on the head right there. Allegations of price-fixing are only valid in oligopolistic/monopolistic practices where there are only a handful of players (at most) in the game.

            In the IM marketplace, there are literally dozens, if not hundreds, of lower-priced alternatives to these high-ticket four figure products, so I think that these allegations of price fixing are completely baseless. It's not as if the consumer has no other choices to pick from besides these high-ticket products.

            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
              Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

              Paul, you hit the nail on the head right there. Allegations of price-fixing are only valid in oligopolistic/monopolistic practices where there are only a handful of players in the game.
              Sorry, I said I was leaving but...

              Hi Paul,

              Where did you get your law degree and what board certifications do you hold?
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              • Profile picture of the author paulie888
                Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

                Sorry, I said I was leaving but...

                Hi Paul,

                Where did you get your law degree and what board certifications do you hold?
                Bruce, I studied Business Law and Economics (among other subjects) while getting my MBA, so there's no need to be sarcastic here. I've studied and gone through my fair share of price-fixing and market collusion case studies.
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                • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
                  Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

                  Bruce, I studied Business Law and Economics while getting my MBA, so there's no need to be sarcastic here. I've studied and gone through my fair share of price-fixing and market collusion case studies.
                  The sarcasm is in your mind. I'm trying to ascertain if you're qualified to make the determination.
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    • Profile picture of the author emumbert1
      Terry,

      I am not sure I agree with government controls. Every time the government gets involved in the free market, they muck it up.

      In the US, we don't need the FCC taking over the Internet in a power grab to control free flow of information. The market place can take care of itself. I totally agree with the argument about ethics, but governments cannot legislate morality.

      I have the red faced admission that I fell for one of those "intangible" scams. It sucked and I learned my lesson.

      When a child touches a hot stove and get's burned, you don't outlaw stoves. More government intervention is not the answer to our ethical and moral problems. Education may be a better avenue, and responsible people that use the Internet may be able to band together in group efforts to expose these hoaxes.

      Just a thought-

      Emumbert 1
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    If I had to guess, I'd say that the FTC is already investigating the actions of the syndicate. They typically build their entire case before executing surprise, SWAT-like raids to arrest people while simultaneously seizing bank accounts.

    I predict we're 3-6 months away from seeing this on all the members of the syndicate.

    There's no emotion in my prediction so don't get upset at me over it. I don't hope it happens or doesn't happen. I just think it will. I know its been reported and evidence provided.

    I don't care because I'm neither a member nor a victim. I just hope it doesn't mess up everything for those of us in other markets, not forming "syndicates". But it will certainly be a big buzz day in IM history if it does happen.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Bruce,

      The CEO of American Airlines can't call Continental and say, "Look, we're killing each other with this price war. Let's agree to an across the board rate increase of 15%"
      That's true. The challenge is that the people under discussion here are not agreeing to charge the same price, or making their own prices contingent on the other person agreeing to a higher tag. Different scenarios entirely.

      They're also not competing with the same product in a limited commodity marketplace.

      As far as what the market will bear, the availability of choice is part of that function. Again, no problems there that I can see. Lots of options.

      We're saying the same thing about the ethics, just disagreeing on the interpretation of how they fit what has been alleged to have been done by the group being discussed.

      Yes, I listened to the call recording. I also factored in things I know that aren't part of it.

      Again, this stuff gets fuzzy enough for lawyers and judges to argue and disagree over forever. I'm not saying my interpretation will fit what some random judge might have to say if he had to weigh all the facts.

      Like you, this doesn't affect me one way or the other. My pricing model, marketing approach and affiliate structure are way different.


      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Miranda
    This is VERY true. Product makers in the real world don't try to hide what it is about in stores. IN the end product creators are just following the lead of other IMers and produce similar sales pages that they find effective in getting customers. We are so accustomed to seeing these types of sales pages nowdays.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    Ok, Paul, I don't think we're that far apart. I'm going to do what I said and bow out now. This is one I'll be happy to watch from the sidelines.
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  • Profile picture of the author OliverJacob
    Brilliant post and a lesson the people who are selling genuine products maybe making less money in the short term but like I say karma is real if they sweat it out they will see the fruits of their labour.
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    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      I am totally overwhelmed by the denial shown on this thread by those who argue semantics in order to defend their methods.
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  • Profile picture of the author hotftuna
    I even fell for one of these marketing ploys.

    Sell claimed that the system was so unique that he would not only refund, but give the customer another $100 if they every heard of this method.

    After I bought the product, I found that the method was creating blogs and selling blog posts. I immediatly asked for a refund. I think it was the only refund I asked for in five years.
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    • Profile picture of the author Antonios
      This thread has had over 6,000 views and over 200 posts in a short time.

      It seems to be one of the most visited threads in WF.

      The members posting have dozens or even thousands of posts.

      Guess this is a heated issue.

      I think that this blind sales copy over hyped technique could be damaging the reputation of many "gurus".

      I have bought some of these products because I received the message (e-mail sales pitch) from a "respected" guru that I had signup for his newsletter or some kind of offer.

      I have had to ask for refunds because I didn't received what was promised in the sales letter.

      I stopped buying these products because ClickBank could restrict my account for so many refund requests.

      Now I don't have much "respect" for these gurus and I have started unsubscribing to their "junk".

      If they give their names to these crap, they don't deserve respect.

      The problem is not the blind sales copy, it is that the products don't deliver on what is promised.

      Some of the statements are over hyped (pure lies), others are softcore:
      Example: "You don't need a website to start the program". You don't need the website to start the program (you will be on training mode), but you will need one to put the program in function.

      The Instant cash, autopilot, earn money today, that even a newbie can setup with three (3) clicks. Onless the newbie has several hundreds of dollars to outsource the setup process, he/she will neve earn a cent in a month with the program.

      And, oh, yes, the inventor of the "system" made money ($$$thousands) in 24 hours using the "system", starting from scratch. What he/she didn't say was that the "scratch" included a 100K mailing list from a previous business or from over five years of list intensive building.

      This kind of complete false advertising is what could be killing the reputation and credibility of the "respectful gurus".

      Just a piece of my experiences.

      Sincerely,

      Antonios
      :confused:
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  • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
    I think there's a teeny weenie difference between all the US airlines banding together and saying "OK, no more tickets under $400." and one IM Goober to another saying "Hey, don't sell that for less than $2K." One is an essential part of life and business and the other is about something (let's face it) that most people don't give a crap about.

    TomG.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by tommygadget View Post

      I think there's a teeny weenie difference between all the US airlines banding together and saying "OK, no more tickets under $400." and one IM Goober to another saying "Hey, don't sell that for less than $2K." One is an essential part of life and business and the other is about something (let's face it) that most people don't give a crap about.

      TomG.
      Thanks for chiming in, Tom. What we're talking about is not an essential part of people's lives and daily business, unlike airplane tickets, gas, groceries or even Operating System software (I'm sure everyone remembers the Microsoft antitrust case).

      Furthermore, there are alternatives, as I've already mentioned above. While I think it's noble that some posters really want to protect the newbies and the ignorant, let's not confuse ethics with the law here.

      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
        Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

        Thanks for chiming in, Tom. What we're talking about is not an essential part of people's lives and daily business
        That's not a requirement of the law, and you know it.

        Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

        unlike airplane tickets, gas, groceries or even Operating System software (I'm sure everyone remembers the Microsoft antitrust case).
        Everything you've named has and had alternatives. There are small regional airlines as well as other independent alternatives. There are mom and pop grocery stores. There is Unix, Linux and Apple.

        It's irrelevant. You're basically saying Walmart and Target could agree on price increases and there not be a problem because everything they offer is available at other stores. Its absurd to think they would be allowed to do that legally.
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