Take Responsibility for Your Purchases

72 replies
I'm sure many will disagree with me, but someone who refunds with this excuse just irks the hades out of me.

"I've returned a number of ClickBank products lately. Here's why:

I went on an Internet marketing product buying binge before Christmas and
honestly can't use all the stuff I bought. I am simply purging myself of the
things that I can't use. Not to mention the fact that I need the money."


It's irresponsible. We all know you get to keep the products on your hard drive, so to me, it'll always resemble theft.

You're not 3. Learn how to evaluate what you need and want before you buy. I don't mind a refund here and there for legitimate reasons, but really?

Step away from the product crack.
tiff

Edit Note: I am tired and grumpy. LOL
#purchases #responsibility
  • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
    Tiffany,

    What is the quickest you've had someone ask for a refund, after they have downloaded all the files you offer after purchase?
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  • Profile picture of the author Oxbloom
    I don't know if by the time I post, I'll be the *first* to disagree with you, but disagree I do.

    Marketers *use* the psychology of the guarantee as a tool. They knowingly and with aforethought try to tip the scales of the purchase decision in their favor by using the money back, satisfaction guarantee with full knowledge that it will boost response...and that any number of dissatisfied customers WON'T demand a refund.

    It's no skin off our noses, after all, since digital inventory is infinite in every practical sense.

    The guarantee is just one of many ways we attempt to manipulate and take advantage of human nature, and it works like gangbusters.

    Where you say, "take responsibility for your purchases," I counter with, "take responsibility for your advertising." On balance, there's no question it all comes out in favor of the marketer.
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    • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
      Originally Posted by Oxbloom View Post

      I don't know if by the time I post, I'll be the *first* to disagree with you, but disagree I do.
      Yep - except this was a PLR pack. Happened to be via CB so affiliates could promote it, but there's no guarantee listed on my site whatsoever and no advertising whatsoever in this regard.

      He just bought, knowing he could get a refund, get his money back AND keep the content! It's a win-win for him.
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      • Profile picture of the author Oxbloom
        Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

        Yep - except this was a PLR pack. Happened to be via CB so affiliates could promote it, but there's no guarantee listed on my site whatsoever and no advertising whatsoever in this regard.

        He just bought, knowing he could get a refund, get his money back AND keep the content! It's a win-win for him.
        I've been baited!



        That's okay. I'd still say that's a cost of doing business with CB. They offer a pretty amazing service, and part of that is a reality that exists because they have a reputation among consumers for their willingness to refund in the event that what you buy in the digital Wild West turns out to be not-as-you-dreamed.

        If you don't want to piggy back on their goodwill and stability and recognizability, I'd say nobody is forcing you.

        But yes, it sucks knowing you've been gamed. Such is life and marketing, I reckon. Again, I'd say we (the marketers) come out well ahead on this risk.
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        • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
          Originally Posted by Oxbloom View Post

          I've been baited!



          That's okay. I'd still say that's a cost of doing business with CB. They offer a pretty amazing service, and part of that is a reality that exists because they have a reputation among consumers for their willingness to refund in the event that what you buy in the digital Wild West turns out to be not-as-you-dreamed.

          If you don't want to piggy back on their goodwill and stability and recognizability, I'd say nobody is forcing you.

          But yes, it sucks knowing you've been gamed. Such is life and marketing, I reckon. Again, I'd say we (the marketers) come out well ahead on this risk.
          LOL Sorry I wasn't meaning to bait you I see your argument to a degree for marketers who over emphasize the refund policy. I have one, but I like to not over emphasize it.

          I do love CB and the service they offer - and I never mind legit refunds - even "I tried but can't do it," but this just seemed - I don't know...I'm in a "mood" and tired - never a good combination. LOL!
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        • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
          Of several hundred sales, I've had about 5 or 6 refunds. When people approach me directly, I gladly oblige. For some reason, though, about 3 have filed directly with Paypal.

          I've escalated each one of those, and have won every single one.
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          • Profile picture of the author George Wright
            Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

            Of several hundred sales, I've had about 5 or 6 refunds. When people approach me directly, I gladly oblige. For some reason, though, about 3 have filed directly with Paypal.

            I've escalated each one of those, and have won every single one.
            x3xsolxdierx3x;3226791

            Nice!

            Tell us more.

            I had two refunds on my last (not a WSO yet) product. One was very legit the other was a flake. The flake stated things that were "wrong" with my product that didn't even exist in my product. Like, how can you say "such and such?" and "such and such" was no where to be found in my ebook. It was like the person was asking for a refund on someone else's ebook and got confused.

            I could tell they were totally off and it would have been very easy to prove if a live person judged the case. I never even thought about letting it go to dispute. I just refunded. I notice you did say "they" took it to dispute. I guess if they come directly to you (me) with no dispute it's just better to refund.

            Anyway, I'm glad you won,

            George Wright
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            • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
              Originally Posted by YoichiSpeaks View Post

              I think you just have to give your customers what they want. Then just choose what type of customers you want to deal with in the future. Filter customers through your funnel. Price your products higher to see if they are even committed to accepting your knowledge and help!
              No I disagree here. I don't want my good customers having to pay higher prices because one jerk decided since he needed extra money, he'd refund everything he recently bought, which is what it sounds like happened here. "Oh, I'm out of money - let's see, I can refund this, this and this - OH and still keep the product!"

              Originally Posted by Daniel Deegan View Post

              I say let it be and refund with a smile and take it one step further and thank them for their honesty.
              I did refund immediately. And sometimes I have those happy go lucky moments, but sometimes stuff like this just irks me and I feel like they deserve nothing.
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            • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
              The best thing I've shown PayPal was that I really care about what is going on, and the outcome.

              When given the opportunity to plead their case, all 3 of those buyers said something similar to "I just want a refund"...

              Worst of all, and I take this a bit personally, but on every page of my products, I include a direct link to contact me with any questions or concerns. I REALLY want people to contact me, and, for those who have, I've spent countless hours responding to emails....and just giving general support.

              It really bothers me when people go strait to Paypal. Had they contacted me directly, I would have tried to work with them. I would have provided very thorough support like I do with all my customers.

              When responding, I would use no less than all the text allocation to plead MY case. I'd dissect exactly what it was that I offered, and how the sales copy was 110% accurate and aligned with what the product offered.

              After winning the first, I realized, based on PayPal's determinations, that they the thing they are MOST interested in is the delivery of the product. If you can prove that the product WAS delivered, you will (should) win. I would explain the nature of digital downloads, and I would provide screenshots of the eJunkie download log. It was nice to have a product that was MULTIPLE files, because I could say "not only did this person download the first file of the product, but they proceeded to download the 6 other files....they then proceeded to ask for a refund within 5 minutes of purchase"

              I don't think alot of people...even those at Paypal, have a firm grasp over digital downloads. As a marketer, I do strive my very hardest to go above and beyond JUST the product....I try to make it absolutely painless for people to contact me, over a variety of social media avenues/email. It really bothers me when people don't even contact me directly. In those cases, I don't think the buyers really had an intent to apply the information anyway.

              Originally Posted by George Wright View Post

              x3xsolxdierx3x;3226791

              Nice!

              Tell us more.

              I had two refunds on my last (not a WSO yet) product. One was very legit the other was a flake. The flake stated things that were "wrong" with my product that didn't even exist in my product. Like, how can you say "such and such?" and "such and such" was no where to be found in my ebook. It was like the person was asking for a refund on someone else's ebook and got confused.

              I could tell they were totally off and it would have been very easy to prove if a live person judged the case. I never even thought about letting it go to dispute. I just refunded. I notice you did say "they" took it to dispute. I guess if they come directly to you (me) with no dispute it's just better to refund.

              Anyway, I'm glad you won,

              George Wright
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              • Profile picture of the author Sheryl Polomka
                Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

                Worst of all, and I take this a bit personally, but on every page of my products, I include a direct link to contact me with any questions or concerns. I REALLY want people to contact me, and, for those who have, I've spent countless hours responding to emails....and just giving general support.
                I hate it when customers go straight to Paypal too. I had one customer once who bought a website and she asked so many questions before buying that she knew exactly what the website was about, how it worked - she knew everything. Yet she filed a dispute with Paypal for a refund - didn't contact me at all - and said it wasn't what she expected.

                Like you - I appealed the case and explained everything to Paypal, including that the website had been transferred to her and she now had possession of it, and I won the case.

                Some customers are just stupid and even a bit nasty! This girl actually went on spam forums and listed me as a spammer and put some of my own IM websites on Digg claiming them to be spam!
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          • Profile picture of the author rickfrazier1
            Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

            Of several hundred sales, I've had about 5 or 6 refunds. When people approach me directly, I gladly oblige. For some reason, though, about 3 have filed directly with Paypal.

            I've escalated each one of those, and have won every single one.
            Paypal will only side with the purchaser if they claim they did not get the product. If the reason for return was "didn't meet advertising" Paypal will close the request immediately upon getting this reason from the purchaser. I suppose that if one had a LOT of requests for refund with Paypal, (like the way overhyped blind products) they might do something, but their stated policy is to back a refund only if the product was not delivered.
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      • Profile picture of the author paulie888
        Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

        Yep - except this was a PLR pack. Happened to be via CB so affiliates could promote it, but there's no guarantee listed on my site whatsoever and no advertising whatsoever in this regard.

        He just bought, knowing he could get a refund, get his money back AND keep the content! It's a win-win for him.
        That's really despicable of the buyer to do that, Tiffany. The person who refunded must be a seasoned Clickbank buyer(thief) who knew that his purchase was completely protected since he bought it through Clickbank.

        Clickbank's liberal refund policy may be okay for a regular digital course/product, but for things like PLR and services rendered, they really should have some built-in safeguards for the sellers, so that they're better protected from unscrupulous buyers like this person.

        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author rickfrazier1
        Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

        Yep - except this was a PLR pack. Happened to be via CB so affiliates could promote it, but there's no guarantee listed on my site whatsoever and no advertising whatsoever in this regard.

        He just bought, knowing he could get a refund, get his money back AND keep the content! It's a win-win for him.
        I agree it's pretty slimy to ask for a refund in the case of PLR, unless it just didn't meet the claims (I once bought a package that claimed 500 ebooks, and the "ebooks" turned out to be articles, each 250-400 words long. When I contacted the seller he was apologetic and provided a link to a package that actually had close to that many ebook/reports. Of course, most were way old, but for the price and quantity, that was to be expected...)

        I'm continually amazed by the limits some people will go to. I once worked (for awhile) for a company in California that would to "product research" by going to the local big box store and purchasing a product (say, like a VCR) then disassemble it to see how it was made. After making notes and such, they'd reassemble it, then return the product to the store. Given the relative benefit they got from reverse-engineering the product, I couldn't see how they felt this was an ethical practice. Funny, but the biggest proponents of this process were the most devout, religious folks you'd ever meet. Go figure.

        I think you had good reason to be upset, but getting upset is essentially counter productive. I know, it's hard to avoid, and sometimes bringing it up in forums like this can help with "healing"
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      • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
        Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

        Yep - except this was a PLR pack. Happened to be via CB so affiliates could promote it, but there's no guarantee listed on my site whatsoever and no advertising whatsoever in this regard.

        He just bought, knowing he could get a refund, get his money back AND keep the content! It's a win-win for him.
        You know I was thinking.....
        If someone robs a bank now days they have these little die packs that will blow up on a timer or something, not sure how they work or had the pleasure of being on the receiving end. Wouldn't it be so cool though if we could virtually set one off. I don't know would it thwart theft? Probably not but it sure would be fun
        -Will

        Okay I will share one story. I had a fellow off fiverr contact me about my little report on there.
        He must of sent me 5 or 6 emails through their system. Each one was getting to be more of a coaching thing then a question about the product. I replied politely if you wish to hire me for consulting.my consultancy fee is 300 per hr. no emails from him for a few days.

        He finally tells me I just bought your product of your website. it was 37 dollars. (price is actually 47.00) He just signed up and paid through paypal he said. So I looked. no sale showing. So I emailed him.

        Do you have a transaction number and paypal email you used to pay for it? yeah it is 2345s45375057374 or some whacky number-no email. LOL

        he said I got it from the one time offer at 37.00 . Oh I said I don't do business that way there is no other offer offered. I will need your paypal email to make sure you get the product if you paid for it. No more emails from him.

        People will try anything to scam ya. He was hoping I would give him a copy and coach him for free.. Like... YEAH. Let me jump right on that for ya :rolleyes: It reminds me a lot of the blue collar guy Bill Ingvam or whatever his name is "here's your sign"
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  • Profile picture of the author Meharis
    Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

    I'm sure many will disagree with me, but someone who refunds with this excuse just irks the hades out of me.

    "I've returned a number of ClickBank products lately. Here's why:

    I went on an Internet marketing product buying binge before Christmas and
    honestly can't use all the stuff I bought. I am simply purging myself of the
    things that I can't use. Not to mention the fact that I need the money."


    It's irresponsible. We all know you get to keep the products on your hard drive, so to me, it'll always resemble theft.

    You're not 3. Learn how to evaluate what you need and want before you buy. I don't mind a refund here and there for legitimate reasons, but really?

    Step away from the product crack.
    tiff

    Edit Note: I am tired and grumpy. LOL
    Tiff,
    If you have a 30/60 days money back no questions ask (I think you do),
    you've to choices. One, get upset and let you blood pressure go up. Or
    ignore that idiot and refund his/her money.
    In the other hand, you can change your refund policy in a way you could
    be protecting yourself from abuse.
    In my opinion you've a very good business reputation. Don't let things like that
    take time away form enjoying life.
    Meharis
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by TiffanyDow View Post

    I don't mind a refund here and there for legitimate reasons, but really?

    Edit Note: I am tired and grumpy. LOL
    I'd be "tired and grumpy" with that as a reason for a refund, too. I'm happy with Clickbank overall as an affiliate, but honestly I'm not sure I could ever use them as a vendor, because of the refund policy. :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
    Tiffany, I can't decide which one is crazier, this thread or “You are just another rip off get real or get out. Better get Jesus God hates lyars (sic).”

    Looks like you are having quite the week...
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  • Profile picture of the author YoichiSpeaks
    I think you just have to give your customers what they want. Then just choose what type of customers you want to deal with in the future. Filter customers through your funnel. Price your products higher to see if they are even committed to accepting your knowledge and help!
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Deegan
    While hear your frustration and totally think its a crappy excuse, I say let it be and refund with a smile and take it one step further and thank them for their honesty. I'm totally into the concept of energy and the relationship and effects of our thoughts and emotions on our selves, others and the world around us.

    Preserve & grow your own positive energy and save your self the stress whenever possible. Life can deal situations that are much worse and draining, lol I save my stressing for those moments.

    Also, personally I feel If getting a refund really will help someone in some way so be it. I wish them the best and hope things go well for them in the future.

    Much love, health, wealth & prosperity,
    Daniel D.
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  • Profile picture of the author PhoebeSmellyCat
    I hear ya and agree.

    I, too, went on a buying spree but would never think to ask for refunds.

    In fact, I've only refunded twice and both times were due to "senior moments" when I purchased the same product twice.

    I think what most of these people do is buy with the hopes that this is the one. The one that will make them a millionaire by tomorrow. The one that will solve all their financial problems.

    They keep chasing that elusive butterfly buying one product and are disappointed when what they'd bought was not (if they even bothered to look at it).

    Then they realize that they've spent all their resources on "worthless junk" and want their money back.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sheryl Polomka
    I can't understand you're frustration it would annoy the crap out of me too. To go on a buying spree and then say you need the money - that's just crap - if you need money then why'd you go out and spend so much money that you can't afford to spend.

    You're right - they aren't 3, they know exactly what they are doing when they buy. It has nothing to do with offering a money back guarantee or not - reasonable, honest, smart people will buy a product and use it, keep it or refund for a legitimate reason. Stupid, dishonest people will ask for a refund regardless of your refund policy.

    But.... it is one of those that you just need to let go, because they don't care that you're upset, they are happily on their way to refunding all the other products they bought. The only person it upsets is you and they aren't worth it!
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  • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
    Here is part of one of Paypal's resolution emails to me. Unlike 2 others, this one didn't explicit say they determined in my favor, however, the end result was that the funds were returned to my account and they "wouldn't investigate further".

    The important thing about this email is that it shows you just how to structure your argument. I'm not trying to taking advantage of buyers. As I have said, I've worked very hard to make the sales copy align with the content of the product, as well as, provide as much possible support as I can. When I feel taken advantage, I don't think it's unreasonable at all for me to escalate it.

    After this email, I've been structuring my appeals to provide detailed proof regarding the fact that the product was, in fact, SHIPPED. I've simply provided screenshots of the eJunkie download log.


    "
    We have received a complaint from a buyer who stated that merchandise you
    sent them did not match your original description. The buyer is disputing
    the quality of goods associated with the transaction detailed below.

    As you may already be aware, PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy applies only
    to the shipment of goods and not to complaints about the attributes or
    quality of goods received through an off eBay transaction
    . Therefore, we
    will not conduct an investigation into this matter at this time.

    We do, however, reserve the right to begin an investigation within 180 days
    if we determine it is necessary."
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  • Profile picture of the author George Wright
    Thanks soldier. Very insightful and I think you have taught us something here.

    Thanks again,

    George Wright
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    • Profile picture of the author Ralph Moore
      My fellow Internet Marketers must love me. I have never asked for a refund
      and probably never will.

      But it is just a part of the business we are in, like it or not.

      That is not to say that a serial refunder wouldn't end up on a list somewhere.



      ~
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      • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
        Originally Posted by eagle View Post

        My fellow Internet Marketers must love me. I have never asked for a refund
        and probably never will.

        But it is just a part of the business we are in, like it or not.

        That is not to say that a serial refunder wouldn't end up on a list somewhere.



        ~
        Sometimes refund requests are completely legitimate. Unfortunate, some buyers have absolutely horrible tact. I have no problem giving a refund, but I'm not sure that it's "fair" to the marketer when you completely bypass them, and go strait to PayPal, especially when you do everything you possibly can to facilitate communications.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ralph Moore
          Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

          Sometimes refund requests are completely legitimate. Unfortunate, some buyers have absolutely horrible tact. I have no problem giving a refund, but I'm not sure that it's "fair" to the marketer when you completely bypass them, and go strait to PayPal, especially when you do everything you possibly can to facilitate communications.
          I agree. A buyer should only go to PayPal if and when the seller fails to make the refund.

          There are a whole host of reasons why a buyer asks for a refund and a lot of them have more to do with the buyer rather than the seller or the product.
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  • Profile picture of the author Silas Hart
    In a lot of peoples mind, a digital product is not real, and they feel that there is no loss in asking for a refund because the seller isn't actually losing anything. I fight refunds because I feel that I can never refund the information from your head, this the money given in exchange for that should not be refunded, and a persons financially situation is of no importance to me. But unlike other marketers, I sell "How to make _____" but not "How to make money online."

    By switching my products from something thats e-mailed to something that is sent in the mail as a physical product, my refund rate is almost nonexistent.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by FaJeeb View Post

      In a lot of peoples mind, a digital product is not real, and they feel that there is no loss in asking for a refund because the seller isn't actually losing anything. I fight refunds because I feel that I can never refund the information from your head, this the money given in exchange for that should not be refunded, and a persons financially situation is of no importance to me. But unlike other marketers, I sell "How to make _____" but not "How to make money online."

      By switching my products from something thats e-mailed to something that is sent in the mail as a physical product, my refund rate is almost nonexistent.
      I think this strategy cuts down a lot on refunds by the the unscrupulous buyers. It's not as easy anymore for them to click a few buttons to request a refund, and your average online buyer is lazy (which is probably why they were shopping on the internet in the first place) - I'm sure your refunds have been cut down to almost zero, as typical buyers don't have the initiative to get up off the couch, insert the product back into an envelope, and hop in the car to drive down to the local post office. (This fact alone explains why so few people make it in IM - they're lazy and don't want to put in any effort!)

      In addition to that, a physically shipped product has higher perceived value, so you can charge more for it than a digitally delivered product. It looks like there are very few drawbacks to turning your digital products into physical ones, as far as I can see.
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  • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
    One customer sent me a very long heartfelt email. He was really genuine in saying that he loved the product, but considered himself more advanced than the product. He told me particular aspects of the product that he would have expanded on to cater to the "more advanced" people out there. He ended the email by saying that he rarely asks for refunds, and would still be interested in hearing about my next product. He did it very politefully and tactfully.

    The product just wasn't at his level. It happens. Product creators always walk a thin line between catering to novice people, as opposed to more advanced people. It's hard to cater perfectly to everyone.

    Of course, I immediately gave a refund. His approach, as a buyer, was one that I really wish other buyers would emulate. Be sincere and truthful about your experience with a product.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Re: Take Responsibility for Your Purchases

    Tiffany, don't you know that "responsibility" is a four-letter word in some circles?
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    Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

      Tiffany,

      What is the quickest you've had someone ask for a refund, after they have downloaded all the files you offer after purchase?
      I didn't put a timer on mine, so...

      How long does it take to start the download on a zipped, 60 page PDF, hit the buttons to request a refund and type "I've already seen this product."? From the time stamps, it was under a minute.

      I issued the refund, along with a note letting him know that the product was original and that he was the very first buyer. Then I congratulated him on his psychic vision...
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      • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
        Hand his details over to me Tiffany, I'll have a strong word with him!

        Shame on you if you're reading this, you're not a man ... you're a BOY!
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        'If you hear a voice within you say "you cannot paint," then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.' Vincent Van Gogh.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sandor Verebi
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        I didn't put a timer on mine, so...

        How long does it take to start the download on a zipped, 60 page PDF, hit the buttons to request a refund and type "I've already seen this product."? From the time stamps, it was under a minute.

        I issued the refund, along with a note letting him know that the product was original and that he was the very first buyer. Then I congratulated him on his psychic vision...
        John, your story is interesting. Sure, you met a notorious refunder. Or hi is an oracle?

        Under one minute... that is maybe a record, hmmm...

        Anyway, I like the way you solved that situation.

        Cheers,

        Sandor
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      • Profile picture of the author Leslie B
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        I didn't put a timer on mine, so...

        How long does it take to start the download on a zipped, 60 page PDF, hit the buttons to request a refund and type "I've already seen this product."? From the time stamps, it was under a minute.

        I issued the refund, along with a note letting him know that the product was original and that he was the very first buyer. Then I congratulated him on his psychic vision...
        I had them stupider (is that a word? LOL) then that. I had someone asking a refund before downloading and trying to download after I refunded. Well that didn't work out for him LOL I did, however blacklist him for the future as did my friends.

        Leslie
        Signature
        Taking it one day at a time!
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  • Profile picture of the author Ernie Lo
    Unfortunately thats hows a lot of society is these days. They never take responsibility for their actions.

    You see it everywhere. People sue and blame others any chance they get for their own damn stupidity.
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by Ernie Lonardo View Post

      Unfortunately thats hows a lot of society is these days. They never take responsibility for their actions.

      You see it everywhere. People sue and blame others any chance they get for their own damn stupidity.
      Even though it's not Valentine's Day quite yet, my wife had me watch this Valentine's Day (I think that was the title...lol) move with Ashton Kutcher and a pretty all star cast. In one scene, this football player accidentally ran into a character played by, I believe, George Lopez (the comedian). Upon finding out that he was a football player, earning alot of money, he began to spout off that he had a bunch of injuries....

      errr...it went something like that...

      So, that just reinforces the point that everyone is sue-happy nowadays. In some cases, I believe suing is necessary, however, the reason people do it so much is because it really can equate to a huge sum of money very easily. Money makes people do alot of things.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ryan Even
    My least favorite has always been "It's not what I expected". Not sure why... It's a perfectly reasonable reason, but it still irritates me.
    Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by Ryan Even View Post

      My least favorite has always been "It's not what I expected". Not sure why... It's a perfectly reasonable reason, but it still irritates me.
      That statement/argument is a sure-fire way for a buyer to LOOSE if they do escalate it to Paypal. PayPal's policy specifically states that they make their determination based on whether the product has actually shipped or not. If a product "isn't what a seller expected", that's not grounds for winning, according to PayPal's policy.

      For those who selling digital products, this is absolutely important to know. PayPal should err in the seller's favor every single time if they can simply prove that their product was shipped. For me, it's been as easy as just providing a screenshot of the eJunkie download.

      There are some slimy people out there, and if they go directly to PayPal before giving me the courteous of contacting me first (especially when I provide so many avenues of communication), I always escalate the dispute, and they've erred in my favor every time of the few times it's happened.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

        So, that just reinforces the point that everyone is sue-happy nowadays. In some cases, I believe suing is necessary, however, the reason people do it so much is because it really can equate to a huge sum of money very easily. Money makes people do alot of things.
        I don't know what TV is like where you live, but around here the PI lawyers practically own the airwaves. It's gotten to the point where some law firms have started advertising for specialty victims (dog bite, slip and fall, etc.).

        All equating a large settlement to "justice."

        What they don't tell you is that, according to their terms, you are only really entitled to around half of that sizable settlement. :confused:

        Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

        Clickbank's liberal refund policy may be ok for a regular digital course/product, but for things like PLR and services rendered, they really should have some built-in safeguards for the sellers, so that they're better protected from unscrupulous buyers like this person.

        Paul
        Paul, as I see it, Clickbank has no real incentive to put in any such safeguards. They're middlemen, taking their cut whether you win or lose on the deal.

        I don't see why PLR should be protected more than any other digital product, though some kind of escrow service might make sense for service providers.

        Try to close every loophole some sleazeball might try to slither through, and you make any service so restrictive and complicated that normal people won't use it.

        Look at it from Clickbank's point of view, as the putative seller of the product or service. Their (legal) customer is the buyer, while you (as product owner) are just another supplier...
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  • Profile picture of the author woonkiat
    Being a PLR sales, maybe the refund period should be shorter to try to minimized refund?
    Could try it out, right?
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    • Profile picture of the author TiffanyLambert
      Originally Posted by woonkiat View Post

      Being a PLR sales, maybe the refund period should be shorter to try to minimized refund?
      Could try it out, right?
      No not on ClickBank - gotta do what they say.

      Actually, my policy on PLR is no refunds.

      I don't ever get requests for them either except ONE time. The guy
      was also slimy - here's what he did...

      He bought a large pack, emailed me saying the quality was low, and he demanded I send him ANOTHER Mega pack or he would ask for a refund.

      Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if the quality's poor, why would you want more of the same? So I refused. He escalated to PayPal.

      I called and talked to them and they agreed with me - he was blackmailing me for more free stuff. They denied his claim and I won.

      Tiff
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  • Profile picture of the author Barry Davis
    I had a few refund requests on my last WSO, which I promptly refunded. But I've got to say, the two that started out, "This is a great product that is very professionally done, but I don't think I am going to use this strategy right now. Please send a refund" drove me a little crazy.

    Hard to believe, but they're out there. Just the cost of doing business I guess. The funny thing is, in my main niche (outside of internet marketing) I have only had two refund requests in 10 years! For some reason the freebie seekers really hit up the IM niche.
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  • Profile picture of the author darkwizgemz
    This is so true. Buyers should aware that when they bought things it couldn't be replace nor return. Its business people unless the item was damage due to bad delivery before the customer had it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Yadira Barbosa
    There's something else that I don't like from clickbank as a vendor: on the IM and Make Money niches people buy your product with his own link so they can get a "discount" so, if you are on that niche your earnings will be shaved a lot.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Ten
    considering that these are digital products... and they are not going to use them... and if the return policy allows it.. then what is wrong with them exercising their rights and free will???? oh... gives you less money?? that irks yoU?
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Hey Tiff,

    You can take comfort in two things, IMHO.

    1. You are a success, and will continue to be successful.

    2. They will do NOTHING with your product and remain a failure.

    All the best,
    Michael
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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  • Profile picture of the author CyberSorcerer
    One of the reasons I don't offer refunds for my IM course, and also why the course is private.

    Either you are determined to make it work or you're going to loose your investment. When the purchaser has nothing to loose, and knows there going to screw you the quality of your product doesn't really matter.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarah Bosen
    What are the best ways to weed out these kind of customers?
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    • Profile picture of the author x3xsolxdierx3x
      Originally Posted by Sarah Bosen View Post

      What are the best ways to weed out these kind of customers?
      If you are getting hundreds of sales a day, I can see these types of customers really setting back efficiency (simply because of the time you have to spend dealing with it). Personally, I wouldn't 'weed' them out...especially for someone who is doing maybe 0-20 sales a day...

      What I WOULD do is learn what PayPal wants. As far as I can tell with regards to their rulings in my favor, they are primarily concerned with the shipment of the goods/product. If a customer says the product wasn't delivered as described, they probably won't win.

      All you have to do is show a screenshot of your eJunkie download log, and you 'should' win no problem. That download log is the best you can do to 'prove' the product has been shipped. In my few experiences, PayPal has ruled in my favor each time when I prove that the product has been, in fact, 'shipped'.
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  • Profile picture of the author Landis
    hide your product behind membership site. no pay, no play.
    Signature

    buying bulk warm seo leads (PM me)

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  • Profile picture of the author Igor Kheifets
    Tiffany, I completely get where you're coming from.

    Just before Christmas I had a great week
    and sold my all time high.

    Starting the 10th of January, I started getting
    refund requests all over the place.

    And some even say they were just curious about
    one of the bonuses, so they bought it knowing they're
    going to ask for the refund.

    Although I stand behind risk reversals and guarantees
    any day of the week, sometimes, it brings out the worst
    in some people..

    Igor
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  • Profile picture of the author musiclyons
    I know where you are coming from Tiffany about people purchasing Clickbank products and then almost immediately asking for a refund. We all know what they are doing. What a shame. But, that is part of doing business with Clickbank, as we all must offer a refund due to Clickbank policies. Just part of doing business.
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  • Profile picture of the author donhx
    Think of the bright side, Tiffany. Regardless of of your religious beliefs, some form of Karma exists. What goes around comes around. What they sow, they will reap. Do good, it returns to you, do evil and it returns double. All that.

    So, to lift your spirits, imagine all the serial refunders burning in "hades" (as you say). That's where they are all going to end up, right?
    Signature
    Quality content to beat the competition. Personalized Author Services
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  • Profile picture of the author lior1970
    I like your point:
    I don't mind a refund here and there for legitimate reasons
    .
    I personally accept it. I believe we can analyze ourselves what the reason behind someone's refund request.
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    • Profile picture of the author bay37
      Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x View Post

      Please elaborate. I'd like to launch a monthly subscription based membership site....what tools/resources do you utilize to do this?
      I'm re-structuring my product into a membership-only website (no more PDFs thank you very much).

      By far the most straightforward way to do it (if you need a forum) is to use aMember+Wordpress+Ip.board or vBulletin.

      Restrict bots from crawling your content areas (or anything past the front page). Synchronize logins (redirect all logins to aMember first). Done.

      Let me know if you need any help/more info.

      Originally Posted by Leslie B View Post

      I had someone asking a refund before downloading and trying to download after I refunded.
      Same thing happened to me once. The same guy sent me an email later (from a different email address) saying that there's a problem with his product dl link - I asked for a transaction ID, he actually gave me the ID of the refunded transaction. What the...

      Have also had some people emailing me fake Paypal transaction IDs...
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by bay37 View Post

        Have also had some people emailing me fake Paypal transaction IDs...
        The ID we see, and that they see aren't always the same. So, what I do is tell them I can't find the transaction ID and ask for their PayPal email address instead. I would say about 90% of the time it IS a legitimate request (usually to get the product, not to get a refund), and 10% of the time I never hear from them again.

        All the best,
        Michael
        Signature

        "Ich bin en fuego!"
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