Everything you always wanted to say about Google and Content Farms, but were afraid to discuss

13 years ago

Hey - I agree with this - sure, it's "the helicopter view" but overall, surely anything that "cheats Google" will very quickly cause Google to close down the magic loophole? At the end of the day only traffic plus product will equal money. Solid, real traffic needed for longevity of the model you are using. Learn the basics of traffic and you won't go far wrong. The tortoise and the hare is a great analogy in this regard.

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ronmojohny

13 years ago

You may be right, so that's why I'm doing both. I go after the blackhat quick buck, and at the same time I'm building a real business.. and that takes time. It kind of reminds me of the mac and pc debate.. why not have both?

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Harlan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by ronmojohny

You may be right, so that's why I'm doing both. I go after the BlueFart quick buck, and at the same time I'm building a real business.. and that takes time. It kind of reminds me of the mac and pc debate.. why not have both?

Because by cheating the system, you ruin the waters for all of us.

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Josh Anderson 13 years ago

Originally Posted by ronmojohny

I go after the BlueFart

Warrior word replacement Quote of the day
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tush 13 years ago

The truth is, Technology changes all the time. I don't actually mind those who make "quick money using black-hat-tricks", as long as they are also building a solid business for the future on the side. That quick money is sweet and can boost one's business. There are many people who have tried to build a real business but have given up before it matures because real businesses take time and many people don't have that patience.. so, if there is a way to make something quickly, why not do it?
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- yourprofitleader 13 years ago
  
  It is simple, it hurts all of us in the longrun. Keeping an ethical approach will do more for your longevity anyway as long as you are building the legit business.
  
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TBInternetMarketing

13 years ago

Surely the basics will still be the same. On Page SEO, and quality backlinks?

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Harlan 13 years ago

Originally Posted by TBInternetMarketing

Surely the basics will still be the same. On Page SEO, and quality backlinks?

And content. Lot's of relevant content.

I'm betting spam links, spam video, spam forum, spam blog links all are rendered ineffective.
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Dave Rodman

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

I even wrote copy for a product that was so effective, Google and all the blogs banned it in a few days.

What does this line mean? Why would Google and a bunch of blogs ban a product because the copy was so effective?

Anyways, I agree with the premise of the post. Most people are all tactics, no fundamentals.

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terryrayburn

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

Build a real business on a solid foundation.

No one can take that away from you.

Harlan,

I agree, as best I understand what you're saying. I think Google is going to continue to get smarter and smarter, and reward REAL content.

Would you mind specifying in more detail what you mean by "a real business"?

For example, good content without keyword research?

Or, other sources of traffic than SEO?

Waiting for real backlinks instead of forcing them from unrelated places?

Even the "good" guys talk about "theme-ing", latent semantic indexing (LSI) etc. Do you think these are just more gaming, or worthwhile (in the long run, I mean of course, in light of your post).

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Harlan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by terryrayburn

Harlan,

I agree, as best I understand what you're saying. I think Google is going to continue to get smarter and smarter, and reward REAL content.

Would you mind specifying in more detail what you mean by "a real business"?

A real business is a product that solves peoples' problems. It doesn't use hype to sell.

It's a business with a sales funnel and you constantly sell to your customers.

You have a website where people find answers to their problems and buy because you have the best solutions to their needs.

You constantly update original content.

You don't spam.

And you stick with one product line instead of "the flavor of the week approach."

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kasimarie

13 years ago

Google's search results quality has come under a lot of scrutiny lately, which is why I agree that a lot of changes are coming down. But why haven't they done anything sooner? It's not like they're just learning about these methods.

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Harlan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by kasimarie

Google's search results quality has come under a lot of scrutiny lately, which is why I agree that a lot of changes are coming down. But why haven't they done anything sooner? It's not like they're just learning about these methods.

Because Facebook and Bing are combining for a new search service and it's going to be based on what your friend's find relevant - not a bunch of spam links.

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JackPowers

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

Because Facebook and Bing are combining for a new search service and it's going to be based on what your friend's find relevant - not a bunch of spam links.

If that search engine really uses friends 'likes' as a metric then Facebook will die a quick death when fake Facebook profiles become a hot commodity.

There's no use speculating in what Google will do. They can't and never will be able to stop backlinking since that's what their algorithm is based. And they can't go around slapping everyone with spam backlinks.

What they likely will do is massively devalue profile backlinks (which they have already), completely discount blog comments and the likes.

The best SEO'ers will always find a way, the problem is that it has become too easy for people to fire up Scrapebox now and that can't continue.

Fact is, Google is not against backlinking, Google is against poor search results.

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Harlan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by JackPowers

If that search engine really uses friends 'likes' as a metric then Facebook will die a quick death when fake Facebook profiles become a hot commodity.

But real people aren't going to friend fake profiles.

I'm not a Facebook whore. If someone wants to friend me, there better be a good reason or the answer is going to be ignore.

I like to interact with my friends on Facebook and I don't care if I have 100 or a 1000.

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JackPowers

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

But real people aren't going to friend fake profiles.

I'm not a Facebook whore. If someone wants to friend me, there better be a good reason or the answer is going to be ignore.

I like to interact with my friends on Facebook and I don't care if I have 100 or a 1000.

Fake pretty girl profiles are quite common even now.

Still, how many people are going to like a 'get rid og yeast infection' site?

The Facebook search engine looks good on paper, but I am willing to bet it will never work like that. I think it will stay the way it is, with friends likes showing up in Bing.

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bgmacaw 13 years ago

Originally Posted by JackPowers

Still, how many people are going to like a 'get rid og yeast infection' site?

Should I send those 1000 likes to your office or to your mansion
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Roaddog 13 years ago

Good post Harlan

As The Eagles said, "you call a place paradise, you can kiss it goodbye"

You have a much bigger percentage of people coming on the Internet now, reading and believing what a much smaller percentage of people have already discovered to be false.

One theory for the amount of crap content out there, is that many people are trying to start in niches they really know nothing about, and it doesn't interest them in the slightest. But because there is so called easy money in it.
The amount of people with less than a couple of years on the net, that are "experts" in the IM niche is astounding.

Do what truly interests you. You won't want to risk it.
If something truly interests you , you will care for it, nurture it, treat it with respect.

If it doesn't make that much money, one interest usually sparks another, which may.

You can segue into anything from a starting point.
Everything is somehow linked to another.

The greatest disservice done to this medium, was "get rich quick"
The second was, don't start with what interests you if there isn't money in it.

Jim
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LeeLee 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

Because Facebook and Bing are combining for a new search service and it's going to be based on what your friend's find relevant - not a bunch of spam links.

If what your friends on Facebook like becomes the criteria for what gets top page rank we will just be choosing one problem for another. Sleazy marketing generates a lot of spam. Facebook is more likely to generate the lowest common denominator.

Think television. The programming and how companies market to the public, 90% is designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator. I'm speaking as a U.S. point of view. We've already dumbed down enough. Any more and we really are done.
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donhx

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

A real business is a product that solves peoples' problems. It doesn't use hype to sell.

It's a business with a sales funnel and you constantly sell to your customers.

You have a website where people find answers to their problems and buy because you have the best solutions to their needs.

You constantly update original content.

You don't spam.

And you stick with one product line instead of "the flavor of the week approach."

Well said.

The only other thing I would mention is that for it to be a real business, people must understand Capitalism 101, which is, "It takes money to make money."

There seems to be a myth out there that people can make money online without capital or skills. To them, it's all about making money off the back of someone else's creativity or the cheap labor of some worker in the Third World.

It doesn't seem that anyone thinks about the importance of capital formation... that you save money to invest in a business in order to give it the best chance of success. Even getting money from investors is okay if they want to take a risk.

Most people do not have the diverse skills need to have enough "sweat equity" to make a business succeed. It seems like most want something for nothing, and that's not any kind of foundation for a business. IM is like any other business...it takes time, money and skills to be successful.

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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by donhx

IM is like any other business...it takes time, money and skills to be successful.

It certainly takes some money to make money, however, a person can always put in more effort to make their venture successful.

I definitely agree that it takes skill and effort. (And that's partly why it's so fun.) One of the beauties of IM (and direct response) is that you can test your business idea with minimal time, money, and effort.

(That's the way I think about it, anyway.)

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donhx

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0

It certainly takes some money to make money, however, a person can always put in more effort to make their venture successful.

I definitely agree that it takes skill and effort. (And that's partly why it's so fun.) One of the beauties of IM (and direct response) is that you can test your business idea with minimal time, money, and effort.

(That's the way I think about it, anyway.)

Yes, I agree that people can get "sweat equity" by putting in the effort as you say. It's just not as easy as it seems. People need a wide range of skills to make it... they must be able to build web sites, write sales copy, do SEO, drive traffic... and on and on.

Since it takes a lot of different skills, and it takes time to acquire them, and since they don't have capital, people tend to want to exploit others. They want $500 web sites for $50 and to pay writers 1 cent per word, expecting it to convert. The whole system becomes corrupted because people want something for nothing.

In a true business situation, people save money in order to pay for the services they need, performed by competent people who will actually add value. They don't act out of desperation. All the low end exploitation by people without a business plan doesn't get anyone anywhere, IMO.

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ronald01

13 years ago

Originally Posted by donhx

Well said.

The only other thing I would mention is that for it to be a real business, people must understand Capitalism 101, which is, "It takes money to make money."

There seems to be a myth out there that people can make money online without capital or skills. To them, it's all about making money off the back of someone else's creativity or the cheap labor of some worker in the Third World.

It doesn't seem that anyone thinks about the importance of capital formation... that you save money to invest in a business in order to give it the best chance of success. Even getting money from investors is okay if they want to take a risk.

Most people do not have the diverse skills need to have enough "sweat equity" to make a business succeed. It seems like most want something for nothing, and that's not any kind of foundation for a business. IM is like any other business...it takes time, money and skills to be successful.

I agree.But that's life.On the net or in real life,it's the same.

It doesn't matter what G will make,you will always find people looking for quick money making.That's natural(not defending them).Sometimes someones hard work will be rewared,sometimes not,that's life.Is it fair? Maybe not but that's IM and that is life.

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Harlan 13 years ago

The cat and mouse game continues.

Google changes the algorithm and marketers jump on the band wagon to exploit it.

But there are LEGAL and HONEST ways to win the SEO game.

And finding people promoting these is often as rare as diamonds in the African clay.

A few people stand out in this regard but they are the lone soldiers.

Today I spoke with a friend who just came back from Affiliate Summit. He met a group of marketers who formerly promoted **** Berry products and promised him millions if they could promote his stuff.

When I finished talking to him, he understood how having unethical people promoting his products could cause him financial ruin as well as legal problems.

There is no end to the scammers.
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Bruce Wedding

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

A real business is a product that solves peoples' problems. It doesn't use hype to sell.

You constantly update original content.

And you stick with one product line instead of "the flavor of the week approach."

Interesting. I agree 100%. Let's dig a little deeper:

There's this site called "Beach Millions". The owner claims to show me how to make money (millions apparently since the name is beach millions) using the "No Work Method", while playing on beaches around the world. If that's not hype, I'm not sure what is.

And the page hasn't changed since it's been posted, in fact it has ZERO content.

Speaking of not jumping on the "flavor of the week", this same marketer has a new facebook product out. It's called "The 48 hour money secret". He says it is "the simplest, easiest, fastest way to make money online." The video says I don't need a list, traffic or any time to make money. It shows 15 seconds of cash pouring out of a bill counting machine. Then it cuts to a rainstorm of hundred dollar bills falling from the sky.

When you stop being a total hypocrite, perhaps people will listen to you. It is a real shame because there is value in your OP but all I can think is, you're ranting about yourself.

As an aside, this is nothing new. I wrote a letter for Brad Callen 2 years ago addressing this issue. Everything I said in there about fads is as true today as it was 2 years ago. You can see it at http://www.seomindset.com

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Steven Wagenheim

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

Interesting. I agree 100%. Let's dig a little deeper:

There's this site called "Beach Millions". The owner claims to show me how to make money (millions apparently since the name is beach millions) using the "No Work Method", while playing on beaches around the world. If that's not hype, I'm not sure what is.

And the page hasn't changed since it's been posted, in fact it has ZERO content.

Speaking of not jumping on the "flavor of the week", this same marketer has a new facebook product out. It's called "The 48 hour money secret". He says it is "the simplest, easiest, fastest way to make money online." The video says I don't need a list, traffic or any time to make money. It shows 15 seconds of cash pouring out of a bill counting machine. Then it cuts to a rainstorm of hundred dollar bills falling from the sky.

When you stop being a total hypocrite, perhaps people will listen to you. It is a real shame because there is value in your OP but all I can think is, you're ranting about yourself.

As an aside, this is nothing new. I wrote a letter for Brad Callen 2 years ago addressing this issue. Everything I said in there about fads is as true today as it was 2 years ago. You can see it at http://www.seomindset.com

Bruce, I was not aware of the site in your post, but after going to the
page, I almost want to take back my thanks to the OP.

There is too much irony in all this for me to even comment on.

You can't make this stuff up.

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Universal_Soul

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

Speaking of not jumping on the "flavor of the week", this same marketer has a new facebook product out. It's called "The 48 hour money secret". He says it is "the simplest, easiest, fastest way to make money online." The video says I don't need a list, traffic or any time to make money. It shows 15 seconds of cash pouring out of a bill counting machine. Then it cuts to a rainstorm of hundred dollar bills falling from the sky.

When you stop being a total hypocrite, perhaps people will listen to you. It is a real shame because there is value in your OP but all I can think is, you're ranting about yourself.

I agree 100%. I want to add that this kind of hypocrites are really ruining the web. I - for one - am not selling a product about making money, but have a real e-commerce, with physical products and find it super-difficult to promote using legitimate methods, when guys like Harlan are around producing torrents garbage everywhere.
I'm wondering what is the advise for REAL business, not totally electronic, 'I'll show you how to make money of the make money products for those who want to make money"

Best
J

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yukon

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

A real business is a product that solves peoples' problems. It doesn't use hype to sell.

It's a business with a sales funnel and you constantly sell to your customers.

You have a website where people find answers to their problems and buy because you have the best solutions to their needs.

You constantly update original content.

You don't spam.

And you stick with one product line instead of "the flavor of the week approach."

Tell that to Billy Mays estate.

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mackyinc 13 years ago

I agree that if you want long term success you have to stick to the fundamentals. That has been true in business for 1,000s of years.

Unfortunately what has also been true for just as long is, quick buck artist come and go with every large scale innovation. But some people don't want a real business. They want a hustle and they will eventually be on to a new hustle.
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JohnMcCabe 13 years ago

Warning - off topic...

Harlan, I watched part of the Beach Millions video after following the link here, and I have to ask.

Are you any relation to Andy Rooney? You look and sound like you could be Rooney's kid...
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Jonathan 2.0

Banned 13 years ago

Good advice Harlan.

Recently I sighed up for AdWords and Google raised my bidding price because of lack of "real" content. Well- I think it's a good thing because now I'm building a more valuable website (rather than just a clever sales page).

So I suppose what I'm saying is that ultimately Google wants to improve their company so that their visitors/users are getting a good service/experience.

I don't see anything wrong with playing by the "rules." However there's always going to be people who want to cheat the system and ultimately that’s going to hurt them (and us).

Thanks for the reminder.

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donhx

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

Guys, the Internet is overflowing with real money...

You can make money is 100 different ways...

Build a real business on a solid foundation...

Harlan

This is the truth.

People don't get it because they are in "get rich quick" mode. Those who have done damage, as you say, are in the "rip and rape" mode. The Internet is anonymous, so some feel free to just shoot buffalo from their seat on the train, and that act hurts us today on the Internet just as it did back in American history.

If anyone wants to succeed on the Internet, they must "Build a real business on a solid foundation" just as you say. Those trying to make a quick buck off the latest gimmick will not last.

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Harlan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by donhx

This is the truth.

People don't get it because they are in "get rich quick" mode. Those who have done damage, as you say, are in the "rip and rape" mode. The Internet is anonymous, so some feel free to just shoot buffalo from their seat on the train, and that act hurts us today on the Internet just as it did back in American history.

If anyone wants to succeed on the Internet, they must "Build a real business on a solid foundation" just as you say. Those trying to make a quick buck off the latest gimmick will not last.

You absolutely get it.

The buffalo metaphor is just perfect!

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Trent Brownrigg

13 years ago

Very well said! And very true. Build your business on a solid foundation using techniques that have always worked and probably always will.

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kasimarie

13 years ago

Google's Matt Cutts has a blog post about it today: Official Google Blog: Google search and search engine spam

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Harlan 13 years ago

Originally Posted by kasimarie

Google's Matt Cutts has a blog post about it today: Official Google Blog: Google search and search engine spam

Thanks for the share.

He is of course - telling only half the story.

We all know it's far worse.
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- kasimarie 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Harlan
  
  Thanks for the share.
  
  He is of course - telling only half the story.
  
  We all know it's far worse.
  
  You're welcome! And it's absolutely far, far worse than how he's portraying it in that post.
  
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Tsnyder

13 years ago

Agree 100%, Harlan.

I always smile a little at the latest, greatest "tricks and tips"
for getting to the top of Google... as if these people really believe
they're smarter than the geniuses who populate the think tanks
at Google.

They aren't. If they were, they'd be running a billion dollar enterprise,
like Google, not hawking digital trinkets to the unknowing and unsuspecting.

They're mostly carnival barkers in my opinion.

Tsnyder

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Zeus66

13 years ago

It's a shame that human nature and what it takes to build a real business with staying power are often at odds. Harlan's terrific post illustrates an example of this. It's human nature to want something pleasurable that's also easy to achieve and happens very quickly.

I hate to admit it, but I'm pessimistic about the chances that this will change anytime soon. Hence, a pretty big contingent of IM is probably stuck in this rut and Google will eventually have no choice but to increasingly take sweeping actions to curtail the abuse.

I'm not sure we can fight the reality that there are a lot more people out there who want the shortcuts than there are those who understand that delayed gratification is actually the better course to fulfillment when it comes to building something that will serve you for years to come. It's probably always been that way, humans being what we are. Having said that, I still think it's important that people who clearly get it, like Harlan, make this point over and over in public forums so we can help try to convert as many as we can with this incredibly important message.

Thanks, Harlan!

John

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bgmacaw

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

What do you think? Agree? Disagree?

Strongly disagree.

It's just like me saying that all list marketers do is spam the crap out of people gullible enough to sign up for their lists with crappy JV offer after crappy JV offer. In fact, there ought to be more regulations and restrictions on email marketing to clean up the sewer it's become. I only want to see big, legit, corporations allowed to market via email. Small businesses and individuals shouldn't be allowed to do it because all they do is spam, spam, spam! I wish these email marketers, especially in IM, would stop trying to get rich quick and build a real business selling real products like Amazon or Best Buy!

See how it works. :rolleyes:

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Marvin Johnston

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bgmacaw

Strongly disagree.

It's just like me saying that all list marketers do is spam the crap out of people gullible enough to sign up for their lists with crappy JV offer after crappy JV offer. In fact, there ought to be more regulations and restrictions on email marketing to clean up the sewer it's become. I only want to see big, legit, corporations allowed to market via email. Small businesses and individuals shouldn't be allowed to do it because all they do is spam, spam, spam! I wish these email marketers, especially in IM, would stop trying to get rich quick and build a real business selling real products like Amazon or Best Buy!

See how it works. :rolleyes:

That is absurd, and it would be obvious if you think through the ramifications.

Hint: regulations can be likened to special interest control of a market/society/... for the most part. Notice I said "control", not "influence."

Marvin

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bgmacaw 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston

That is absurd

It's intended to be, just like the rant that started this thread is also absurdly overwrought.
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TimG

13 years ago

Originally Posted by cosmokid

Personally I wish Google would start devaluing crappy sites like ezinearticles and return to valuing sites that make sense.

Case in point. About a year ago, you could write a book/ebook and publish it through Amazon, and if you were careful to target keywords that weren't insanely competitive in your book title, and you used Amazon's tagging system properly, your book would show up on the front page of Google when somebody typed your keywords into the search box.

Now? Not so much. But good ole ezinearticles and the other crappy article sites come up on the first page most of the time.

I'm sorry, but if I'm searching for a book on "How to Care for My Pygmy Hippopotamus" and there is a book on Amazon carefully written by an expert on pygmy hippopatami (sp?)then that book result should at least show up in the first page search results.

But, no. Instead, that outsourced article to someone who can barely write in English who posted a completely useless "farticle" to ezinearticles has THEIR piece of garbage article show on the first page results -- meanwhile, the Amazon title could be buried WAY back in the results. So the average searcher, who rarely goes more than a few pages deep into the Google results before essentially deciding that the information that they want doesn't EXIST, never finds that book that was designed to help them.

I think that's wrong. I think Google is placing far to much emphasis still on really bad, useless sites. And I don't think that's going to change. We're all still going to be jumping around having to create a hundred thousands flogs and farticles and fartlinks to point at our quality content, our relevant content, just to get Google's spiders to MAYBE pay attention.

Of course, if you have a year to spend building an "authority" site with loads of content and backlinks, you can eventually place for those same words -- and then point visitors out to your wonderful book about the pygmy hippo.

But really, the whole thing is so TIRESOME these days. Bleah on Google.

I think part of that is due to the fact that those sites carry adsense on them which is a cash cow for Google.

In your example having Amazon show up first does not create additional revenue for Google although it does provide relevancy for their search engine results so I guess it is a give or take situation.

Respectfully,
Tim

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Deidra Renee

13 years ago

I agree %100! I just recently saw a product about autoblogging using twitter where the person actually admitted that he steals content from other people's sites. And AFTER he stated that people were steal signing up to buy from him. Now would you want to build a blog for months from scratch only to have people steal your content and make money with adsense, amazon, etc...?? So why do it to someone else? I will never invest in any automation type product because it is very *suspect* to me. Unless the automation process is actually teaching you how to go hire (outsource) someone to do the work for you, not stealing from other people or *robbing google blind* as some products say

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Harlan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bizchick83

I agree %100! I just recently saw a product about autoblogging using twitter where the person actually admitted that he steals content from other people's sites. And AFTER he stated that people were steal signing up to buy from him. Now would you want to build a blog for months from scratch only to have people steal your content and make money with adsense, amazon, etc...?? So why do it to someone else? I will never invest in any automation type product because it is very *suspect* to me. Unless the automation process is actually teaching you how to go hire (outsource) someone to do the work for you, not stealing from other people or *robbing google blind* as some products say

Those days are rapidly ending...

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bertyounger

13 years ago

Frankly I feel that Google's lack of transparency regarding their SE algorithms encourages a lot of bogus IM activity; in fact it actually fuels it! It reminds me of the days when the NATO nations use everything in their power, including the reading of tea leaves, to hazard a guess as to what was going on with the leadership within Communist Russia.

Google should take a lot of the blame for the current state of IM! Why? Because greed is a given and not to address the gaming of their algorithims borders on the criminal.

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Chri5123

13 years ago

I agree with you. Another thing I have noticed is that if you take time to build your links, websites and content you get better rankings anyway.

Google see's through all of these "quick buck" ideas quickly.

After all like you say it is in their best interests.

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kindsvater

13 years ago

The irony is how much money and time people spend creating mass junk with the goal of making peanuts.

They could spend that same money and time creating useful, informative, and valuable content that will not only be long-lasting, but be more profitable.

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bgmacaw

13 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

The irony is how much money and time people spend creating mass junk with the goal of making peanuts.

They could spend that same money and time creating useful, informative, and valuable content that will not only be long-lasting, but be more profitable.

Yep, that darn WalMart making all that mass junk and making peanuts. Wait, they aren't even making it themselves! They're selling a lot of "private label" outsourced products made in Asia. How could they ever make any money at all!

And those people who spend their lives making TV commercials. Why don't they get into making useful and valuable art house documentary films and make some real money?

And don't even get me started on pop musicians vs. real musicians like jazz and classical artists.

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kindsvater

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bgmacaw

Yep, that darn WalMart making all that mass junk and making peanuts. Wait, they aren't even making it themselves! They're selling a lot of "private label" outsourced products made in Asia. How could they ever make any money at all!

And those people who spend their lives making TV commercials. Why don't they get into making useful and valuable art house documentary films and make some real money?

And don't even get me started on pop musicians vs. real musicians like jazz and classical artists.

You've missed the entire point, and your analogies are all wrong.

No one is talking about a physical product that can be mass produced. Or comparing one type of entertainment versus another.

But I think you know all this. If not, let us know when you figure out the difference between a traffic equalizer site and Wikipedia.

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bgmacaw 13 years ago

Originally Posted by kindsvater

You've missed the entire point, and your analogies are all wrong.

You're the one who missed the point but you were too busy kissing the rear of the "cool kid" OP to notice it.
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bravo75

13 years ago

How is all this going to affect the artificial backlinking circus and the whole cottage industry that goes along with it? Surely spamming the living crap out of blogs and just about anywhere else you can leave a "backlink" must be something Google are zooming in on.

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Harlan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

How is all this going to affect the artificial backlinking circus and the whole cottage industry that goes along with it? Surely spamming the living crap out of blogs and just about anywhere else you can leave a "backlink" must be something Google are zooming in on.

Google wasn't stupid. Just a little on the slow to move side...

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Steven Wagenheim

13 years ago

Harlan...great post. Bravo.

Jennifer (Cosmo) - God I miss you...{ { { } } } }

BHC...try not to fall asleep in the middle of the cleanup...you may need to
actually put on a white hat someday.

Have I mentioned lately that I love this place?

All kidding aside, I have to believe that the day will come when all the
people abusing the Internet will be out standing on some street corner
with a pair of black glasses, a hat, an accordion, and a monkey named
Bonzo who can sing 7 of the 8 verses of "America The Beautiful."

I wonder how many drachma you can make off that gig?

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LeeLee

13 years ago

As a marketer, I look forward to Google closing as many loopholes as possible. I am personally much better at creating quality content than I am at keeping up with the sleaze of the week technique. So the less sleaze that wins page rank, the more page rank my quality gets.

As a user, I can't even begin to say how much I hate spam sites. I am always looking something up on the net. I have one of those inquiring minds that wants to know and I search for something daily. Some sites I can easily avoid as the majority of sites that use the word 'review' or 'is this a scam?' are going to be garbage. But I can't always spot them.

One of the worst is when a parked domain gets page rank. I'm looking for something and I get a spammy page of even more spammy links. Blech!

Like anything else, loopholes will continue to be created. But hopefully Google will become more responsible to their mission and look to correct problems simply because those problems exist. Not just because those problems affect their bottom line. Is that too much to hope for?

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Rsberg

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

And now auto-blogging is dying a rapid death.

I agree with most everything you said except the quote I left above.

Maybe it's the way I build my "auto" blogs (which do contain unique content as well) or maybe it's just blind luck (I doubt it) but my auto blogs have steadily grown in number, size, traffic and earnings over the last 3 years and I haven't lost a single one...and I have a lot of them, not as many as some here on the WF but probably more than most.

Having said that, I whole heartedly hope that Google and the others do whatever they can to get rid of the "game the system" approaches and methods. I personally hate them and think they give IM a bad name in general. We have all seen many of those systems live a short life and I'm glad for that.

There is a big difference in "gaming the system" and using automation intelligently and responsibly to add value and increase production capabilities. Many threads like this often get side tracked or end up lumping ideas and approaches together that don't necessarily apply.

For the most part I do agree with the OP but also think there is a place for some of what has been lumped into this topic if it is used legally and ethically to provide value to the reader and the net as a whole.

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Fraggler

13 years ago

Social Media will control search results? hah!

Here in QLD there have been some massive floods. Some of the News channels were using Twitter and Facebook to get the break on the news and came up with some great stories such as crocodiles in Brisbane, make shift morgues being set-up everywhere, 100+ dead, non-existent bodies being found, the drinking water will make you crook, the whole City wont have power, etc etc. This was all reported as fact.

Is Google going to start reporting the same as fact?

I also highly doubt Google will use social media to undermine research established years ago from reputable universities and organisations because something went viral on Facebook contradicting the research. The reputable resources are currently and accurately determined by the PageRank based algorithm - i.e. backlinks.

Social Media will play a part in current events but I doubt it will extend much past that. Branding may be measured with it too, but not everything on the net is to do with Brands. Who says that Amazon gets to receive all traffic for people searching for a book when they hardly provide useful information or quality reviews on them? It is just an online store, even though a big one.

Blk Hat marketers have been gaming the social sites for years. Google is a computer, it can only be given a set up rules to follow. There are a lot of smart people out there who can programatically give Google whatever it wants. They have been doing it for search engines since SEM existed.

You may find that Google finally detects spam links correctly but they are going to struggle to take down private networks of sites that look like any other legitimate site.

Google's flaw is the way it was designed (PageRank). The two who developed it (with its flaws) are suddenly going to fix it?

I agree 100% on you about creating a business rather than a hit-and-run campaign, but that is a different point to gaming Google coming to an end.

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terryrayburn 13 years ago

There are few readers here that don't know the simple concept of "quality" vs. "crap", whether in content, links, accuracy, etc.

Let's hope Google gets better and better at rewarding the quality and decimating the crap.

I'm sure the logarithms are not that simple, but the concept is.
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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by manosankar

Next Gen Super Affiliate

Consistently I am Going to Develop A Model Which will beats those shaggy affiliates

I really hate illegal money making

I give my full support for white hats as well as little grey hats

So if i feel someone brings dust to serps then i will clear it in their way

Anyway this is the most wonderful first thread in warriorforum.com

You have to give me the link to whatever article spinner you are using.
Great stuff. Almost 40% coherent.

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ronmojohny 13 years ago

I make most of my money with Adsense, and so does Google. So whatever they do, they aren't going to kill their own income; maybe base the search results on a user defined quality score, but that's really all they have left.

For them to do it themselves is way to big of a task. (even more of a problem than duplicate content) They just don't have (and never will have) the resources..

And just because you create a "real business" there is no guarentee that it will work (or last) Look at all the fortune 500 companies that are history because they didn't keep up with technology. But I agree you have a better chance of success in the long run If you stick with it. I believe in multiple sources of income, because if you look at most wealthy people, that's how they did it.
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Universal_Soul

13 years ago

sorry to sound negative Harlan, but for me it hypocrisy on your part. One one side telling people to build legitimate businesses on the other advertising 'make money in 48 hours' system is exactly this.

This environment is more detached from reality than I thought before.

Best
J

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Harlan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Universal_Soul

sorry to sound negative Harlan, but for me it hypocrisy on your part. One one side telling people to build legitimate businesses on the other advertising 'make money in 48 hours' system is exactly this.

This environment is more detached from reality than I thought before.

Best
J

There are a lot of people who don't HAVE the money to build a business. The 48 Hour system shows people how to make money using Facebook.

I have people who have never made a dime online using the system with success.

And once they have the confidence that there is money to be made online, I take them to the next step.

It really should have been named the 75 minutes money because now Facebook approves ads much more quickly.

In a live webinar I showed how I created an ad and got a response in less than 10 minutes.

Pretty cool.

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Universal_Soul

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

There are a lot of people who don't HAVE the money to build a business. The 48 Hour system shows people how to make money using Facebook.

In a live webinar I showed how I created an ad and got a response in less than 10 minutes.

Pretty cool.

wonderful - what you've just said has absolutely no meaning. To put it very simply - I completely and utterly don't believe in this garbage. There are million of people trying to make money of the Facebook and everyone is tapping in. Results are in 99,999% cases miserable. Like ALWAYS with this types of nonsense 'products' and tutorials, it's like shooting in the dark.
If you know your business, you know IM, you're smart and persistent, you'll make money.
But I warn you people - don't believe in ANYTHING promising you quick money 'with no list, no product, no time, no whatever' it's long hands feeding small minds, nothing else.
It's a scam. No legitimate figure in this business will promise you quick money in 48 hours, as long as you're no big player on the Wall Street.

Beware of the wolves at night
J

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Andyhenry

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

In a live webinar I showed how I created an ad and got a response in less than 10 minutes.

Pretty cool.

The same can be said of most PPC systems.

You could go to Google and do the same - that's how PPC works.

I used to show the same thing with Adwords years ago. I don't get why suddenly Facebook is being held up as something special - it's just another PPC platform. You setup your ad and it runs - nothing new about that. If your showing it in for a niche that has a lot of searches - you're bound to get results quickly. This has always been why people recommending using PPC to test your niche before spending time on seo.

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nothing to see here.

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Harlan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

The same can be said of most PPC systems.

You could go to Google and do the same - that's how PPC works.

I used to show the same thing with Adwords years ago. I don't get why suddenly Facebook is being held up as something special - it's just another PPC platform. You setup your ad and it runs - nothing new about that. If your showing it in for a niche that has a lot of searches - you're bound to get results quickly. This has always been why people recommending using PPC to test your niche before spending time on seo.

The reason Facebook is news is:

1. direct linking allowed.

2. better demographics

3. blatant affiliate links allowed.

None of the above are allowed on Adwords any longer.

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Andyhenry

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

The reason Facebook is news is:

1. direct linking allowed.

2. better demographics

3. blatant affiliate links allowed.

None of the above are allowed on Adwords any longer.

All of which are not - about getting an ad to show quickly.

Of course there are differences - again you can say that about many PPC systems but we don't charge around promoting every new one like it's the next big thing - because it's not big news.

Anyone who's into using PPC will check out different platforms and adapt accordingly - since 'most' IMers don't use PPC it's hardly industry changing news that you can use one of the biggest ones on the planet to get quick results by paying for traffic.

There's no need to sensationalise these things just to get people to listen to what you have to say.

This whole thread is another example.

Google have always done what they can to filter out crap and make people still want to use their search engine. Nothing new is going on here.

People generating crap content in order to trick the SEs into showing their sites already know that gaming the system can make money but could end up in your site disappearing - nothing new here.

All this focus on how these companies care about their users not getting screens full of crap and wanting to give them good results is common-sense and is just normal.

I think this whole thread is an example of how we get distracted into wasting time on things which really shouldn't need any discussion.

Who really thinks that posting millions of pages of regurgitated crap is likely to be a better long term business model than creating unique and useful content that delivers value and creates a desire for more?

It's like we keep having conversations about "hey remember to breath in and out every day - or you'll die. It sounds obvious but so many people forget!". Come on! are we really that ignorant of what makes sense that we need to constantly focus on how NOT to do everything?

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bay37

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

There are a lot of people who don't HAVE the money to build a business. The 48 Hour system shows people how to make money using Facebook.

Let me say this:

1. Advertising on Facebook is not an easy way to make money.
2. You're are a couple years late to the Facebook-guru party.
3. I feel sorry for those people who don't HAVE the money to spend and fall for crap products like "The 48 Hour system".

It really should have been named the 75 minutes money because now Facebook approves ads much more quickly.

This right here shows just how limited your Facebook PPC knowledge really is.

In a live webinar I showed how I created an ad and got a response in less than 10 minutes.

Pretty cool.

Pretty cool? Are you serious? I mean... I'm starting to think that you actually believe all this crap and bs that you're feeding your customers.

I have created tens of thousands of ads on FB over the last year and a half (roughly). Anyone can create an ad and "get a response" in less than 10 mins. So what?

Do you address any of these issues in your "system"? -

1. What niches are allowed on FB. What is borderline and what is stricly off-limits.
2. Different niches/products and how to target them? CPA, CPS, capturing leads yourself, brand building, etc?
3. How FB ad approval works and what to expect.
4. Difference between CPM and CPC bidding. Case studies?
5. Split testing: ad copy, ad picture, demographics, location, landing page/straight to offer, time of day, etc?
6. Realistic spend on ads (testing budget, optimization budget, etc)?
7. How to properly track your spend/profit/conversions? Do you provide Excel spreadsheets or anything like that?
8. Spying?
9. Networks/advertisers shaving leads?
10. Tracking? How to track your ads, how to set up traking scripts, how to add mods to them, etc?

.....and dozens of other things....

There's so much more to FB PPC than you could ever grasp! And you're the one to teach it? Are you kidding me?

How on Earth is such blatant bs even allowed here? Please don't delete my post - edit it if you have to... Someone had to call him out. Really don't want any unsuspecting newcomers falling for this crap.

Again, I can't believe that such blatant promotion and hypocrisy are being allowed here.

Beach millions.

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KenThompson

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bay37

Let me say this:

1. Advertising on Facebook is not an easy way to make money.
2. You're are a couple years late to the Facebook-guru party.
3. I feel sorry for those people who don't HAVE the money to spend and fall for crap products like "The 48 Hour system".

This right here shows just how limited your Facebook PPC knowledge really is.

Pretty cool? Are you serious? I mean... I'm starting to think that you actually believe all this crap and bs that you're feeding your customers.

I have created tens of thousands of ads on FB over the last year and a half (roughly). Anyone can create an ad and "get a response" in less than 10 mins. So what?

Do you address any of these issues in your "system"? -

1. What niches are allowed on FB. What is borderline and what is stricly off-limits.
2. Different niches/products and how to target them? CPA, CPS, capturing leads yourself, brand building, etc?
3. How FB ad approval works and what to expect.
4. Difference between CPM and CPC bidding. Case studies?
5. Split testing: ad copy, ad picture, demographics, location, landing page/straight to offer, time of day, etc?
6. Realistic spend on ads (testing budget, optimization budget, etc)?
7. How to properly track your spend/profit/conversions? Do you provide Excel spreadsheets or anything like that?
8. Spying?
9. Networks/advertisers shaving leads?
10. Tracking? How to track your ads, how to set up traking scripts, how to add mods to them, etc?

.....and dozens of other things....

There's so much more to FB PPC than you could ever grasp! And you're the one to teach it? Are you kidding me?

How on Earth is such blatant bs even allowed here? Please don't delete my psot - edit it if you have to... Someone had to call him out. Really don't want any unsuspecting newcomers falling for this crap.

Again, I can't believe that such blatant promotion and hypocrisy are being allowed here.

Beach millions.

I have a lot of experience with adwords but got away from it a few
years ago. I have not done any ppc on FB for a variety of reasons.

But... I would pay you to teach me about FB ppc.

Ken

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bay37 13 years ago

Originally Posted by KenThompson

But... I would pay you to teach me about FB ppc.

Haha. Teaching PPC of any kind - too much responsibility.

Back on topic - building a real business. That includes taking responsibility for your actions. In terms of a coaching programme:

1. Do not lie.
2. Do not promiss too much (do no work - make a full time income). Some people are desperate - they are depressed, having a bad year, even suicidal. If you give them hope - better be damn sure you can deliver.
3. Always do your best to help and communicate all your knowledge as best as you can (only stuff that you've tried/tested yourself and know that it works).

That's how I see it. I'm sure that Harlan would disagree with me on all (or most) of the above points.

I'm okay now.... I think. Off to work I go.
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Harlan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bay37

Do you address any of these issues in your "system"? -

1. What niches are allowed on FB. What is borderline and what is stricly off-limits.
2. Different niches/products and how to target them? CPA, CPS, capturing leads yourself, brand building, etc?
3. How FB ad approval works and what to expect.
4. Difference between CPM and CPC bidding. Case studies?
5. Split testing: ad copy, ad picture, demographics, location, landing page/straight to offer, time of day, etc?
6. Realistic spend on ads (testing budget, optimization budget, etc)?
7. How to properly track your spend/profit/conversions? Do you provide Excel spreadsheets or anything like that?
8. Spying?
9. Networks/advertisers shaving leads?
10. Tracking? How to track your ads, how to set up traking scripts, how to add mods to them, etc?

.....and dozens of other things....

There's so much more to FB PPC than you could ever grasp! And you're the one to teach it? Are you kidding me?

1. What niches are allowed on FB. What is borderline and what is stricly off-limits.

YES

2. Different niches/products and how to target them? CPA, CPS, capturing leads yourself, brand building, etc?

YES

3. How FB ad approval works and what to expect.

YES

4. Difference between CPM and CPC bidding. Case studies?

YES

5. Split testing: ad copy, ad picture, demographics, location, landing page/straight to offer, time of day, etc?

YES

6. Realistic spend on ads (testing budget, optimization budget, etc)?

YES

7. How to properly track your spend/profit/conversions? Do you provide Excel spreadsheets or anything like that?

YES to A. NO to B.

8. Spying?

YES

9. Networks/advertisers shaving leads?

YES

10. Tracking? How to track your ads, how to set up traking scripts, how to add mods to them, etc?

A. Yes.
B. Same thing. You like repeating yourself.
C. No.

And thanks for taking a discussion about Google and making it about my products.
I've seen a huge increase in traffic from the WF and conversions too.

I'm here to talk about Google/Facebook. But if you out of ignorance disparage my products, I'm going to defend them.

Blatant self promotion? On the Warrior Forum? Never!

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Martin Luxton

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bay37

Let me say this:

1. Advertising on Facebook is not an easy way to make money.
2. You're are a couple years late to the Facebook-guru party.
3. I feel sorry for those people who don't HAVE the money to spend and fall for crap products like "The 48 Hour system".

This right here shows just how limited your Facebook PPC knowledge really is.

Pretty cool? Are you serious? I mean... I'm starting to think that you actually believe all this crap and bs that you're feeding your customers.

I have created tens of thousands of ads on FB over the last year and a half (roughly). Anyone can create an ad and "get a response" in less than 10 mins. So what?

Do you address any of these issues in your "system"? -

1. What niches are allowed on FB. What is borderline and what is stricly off-limits.
2. Different niches/products and how to target them? CPA, CPS, capturing leads yourself, brand building, etc?
3. How FB ad approval works and what to expect.
4. Difference between CPM and CPC bidding. Case studies?
5. Split testing: ad copy, ad picture, demographics, location, landing page/straight to offer, time of day, etc?
6. Realistic spend on ads (testing budget, optimization budget, etc)?
7. How to properly track your spend/profit/conversions? Do you provide Excel spreadsheets or anything like that?
8. Spying?
9. Networks/advertisers shaving leads?
10. Tracking? How to track your ads, how to set up traking scripts, how to add mods to them, etc?

.....and dozens of other things....

There's so much more to FB PPC than you could ever grasp! And you're the one to teach it? Are you kidding me?

How on Earth is such blatant bs even allowed here? Please don't delete my post - edit it if you have to... Someone had to call him out. Really don't want any unsuspecting newcomers falling for this crap.

Again, I can't believe that such blatant promotion and hypocrisy are being allowed here.

Beach millions.

Bay37,

Ecky thump!

You've also highlighted one of the marketing choices we face.

What will people buy:

"Rake in a Fortune From Facebook in Minutes with Absolutely No Work!"

or your hard-earned knowledge truthfully explained

"Work Bloody Hard For A Year And Risk Thousands of Dollars While You Try and Master Facebook PPC".

It's the punters' fault entirely. :rolleyes: They demand crap products so it's a marketer's duty to oblige.

Re the OP.

It's always important to remember that we all have an agenda.

And it's interesting to do a background check on someone who does a rant thread to try and work out what their agenda is. However, most people take what is said at face value and the OP can get a lot of kudos from the amount of thanks from senior WF members.

That in itself can be an agenda.

Martin

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Martin Luxton 13 years ago

So bay37's latest post has just been deleted for calling out Harlan for being economical with the truth but Harlan's insulting remark is allowed to stay?

Isn't this just adding fuel to all the anti-WF sites?

Martin
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- Paul Myers 13 years ago
  
  Martin,
  
  So bay37's latest post has just been deleted for calling out Harlan for being economical with the truth but Harlan's insulting remark is allowed to stay?
  
  Chill, sir. We hadn't gotten to it yet, and no-one had reported it that I'd seen.
  
  We are not omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, boys and girls. If you expect instant perfection (or any other kind) seek your prize elsewhere.
  
  Paul
  
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  Paul Myers 13 years ago
  
  Screw it. There's nothing new being said here on the topic anyway.
  
  Say g'night, Gracie.
  
  Paul
  
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Andyhenry

13 years ago

This is really the same message some people have been saying for over a decade.

When I started out in IM (1999) people were saying the same thing and people have been saying it the entire time since then - "Don't game the system, it's a short term game and can collapse on you or leave you looking over your shoulder and chasing your tail, just build on solid ground"

What happened?

People lined up to game the system and have made millions of dollars doing it.

Many people made money and it did indeed get pulled out from under them (think Adsense)

So have we all learned our lesson? Of course not.

For every person who 'gets it' and wants to build their business on solid foundations there are 100 others who just want to press a button and not think about it.

It's like the issue with email spam.

Do people think it's annoying? Yes

Are we all fed up receiving it? Yes

Are email providers trying to clean their house? Yes

Do we report it to try and prevent it? Yes

Has it gone away? No!!!!

Why not? Because there are still people happy to break all the rules in order to chase short term cash.

This stuff isn't going to change and the people gaming the system now are likely to buy all the new tools that come out to adapt to any changes that happen.

Personally I think any efforts the SEs make to get rid of crap are great and well overdue. The harder it is for followers to short-cut results the easier it is for smart people to get their signal above the noise.

I don't hold out a lot of hope for things to change massively because the crowd chasing quick, easy results is bigger than ever before so the SEs really have their work cut out.

I think anyone needing to worry about this stuff probably has bigger problems than just what Google's next move is.

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thebitbotdotcom

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

Here's by prediction: There will be a totally different Google equation by the end of 2011 and all the tricks you are using now will be worthless.

What do you think? Agree? Disagree?

Peace,

Harlan

Disagree. Only on your prediction. I think you hit the nail on the head as far as everything else.

I don't have a specific reason, just a hunch that SE engineers have a few tricks to come, but not a complete re-ramp as you are implying. There are only so many ways you can read the metrics and at this point, a search engine algorithm is still the equivalent of a 2-3 year old as far as comprehension IMO judging from adsense ads that commonly pop up on any given page.

I am not saying that Google is doing a bad job. They are doing a great job, but when you have every other brain on the planet looking to game the 40 or so PHDs holed up in a room somewhere in Google's headquarters it is really no contest...the I's have it.

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GrowTallerNiche

13 years ago

If Social Media determines Search Results then everything will be based on what 14 year old girls like. Justin Bieber Oil Filters. The Edward Cullen Dog Training System.

Every system is biased against certain demographics. Algorithms based on links(and the diminishing returns of links) is biased towards webmasters with their own domains.

Spam, isn't the problem. It's just the whole algorithm. If you fix the webspam problem you still get the big site bias.

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Harlan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by GrowTallerNiche

If Social Media determines Search Results then everything will be based on what 14 year old girls like. Justin Bieber Oil Filters. The Edward Cullen Dog Training System.

And if 14 year old girls are your friends, you may be correct.

But if you are searching for Abraham Lincoln and you and 16 of your friends attended Abraham Lincoln High School, you may be grateful for a new algorithm.

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BrandonLee

13 years ago

If the algorithm is actually based upon what your friends search for it should be very powerful.

Most people tend to hang with people of similar intellect, interests, income etc. So the potential is there for it to be a very powerful search.

Idiots and morons will get the results they want, and so will intelligent people.

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Harlan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by BrandonLee

If the algorithm is actually based upon what your friends search for it should be very powerful.

Most people tend to hang with people of similar intellect, interests, income etc. So the potential is there for it to be a very powerful search.

Idiots and morons will get the results they want, and so will intelligent people.

That's why in the future, everyone needs to be more careful who they select as friends.

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Bill Farnham

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

Today I spoke with a friend who just came back from Affiliate Summit. He met a group of marketers who formerly promoted **** Berry products and promised him millions if they could promote his stuff.

Beach millions?

Originally Posted by sanssecret

Finally, someone else who admits that Google is a woman. :p

After all the slapping going on at Google it was pretty obvious from the get-go...:rolleyes:

~Bill

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webapex

13 years ago

An SEO round table discussion at Ryan Deiss's Traffic & Conversion Summit 2.0 in 2010 talked about SEO having become easier, Ryan said: "seo is like 2003 again" ..."it's become easier", they all have had occasional sites deindexed, something they saw as the cost of doing profitable business.
They talked about Google's recent dis-proportioned value of backlinks being an over correction for the earlier pollution of the web by crappy content sites caused by their their adsense advertising program. It's reasonable to assume the next compensation will go back to more content based ranking.

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KenThompson

13 years ago

1. Nothing has changed in thousands of years.

2. Measure, counter measure. This will never change.

3. I recall seeing an article recently about G avoiding taxes
on 60 B due to some offshore thing.

4. What's with all these threads, lately, with the distinct tones
of moral indignation? No need to answer; just thinking outloud.

Ya'll are funny.

Ken

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rkcc4

13 years ago

I agree with some aspects of the OP but it is the nature of the game, Google wants people to come with cheats because it increases CPC revenue. Right now it is in trouble with the EU who have decided to investigate allegations of rigging the results where it has an offering.

All Google wants is relevant content, the metrics will always be changing, it is the nature of Google's game.

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KenThompson

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Google has gone from being a search engine to being a gatekeeper and de facto censor.

They are not geniuses, they are thinly disguised bureaucrats who make their living from the work of others.

To hell with them.

Mr. Caudill...

We drink from the same pot of coffee.

Well done.

Ken

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eQuus

13 years ago

That's the longest haiku poem I've ever read.

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petevamp

13 years ago

Now if googles advertisers would put parts like this in their disclaimer stating that such software would ban them from using anyof their services it would cut down on alot of it. On the other hand you have those who have tried for years to get the rankings they long heard about for their sites. Which then turns them to these tools and techniques just to turn a bit of a profit. Yes the slow method will gain you my respect in the long run. People however want to build things as fast as possible. It does absolutely no good if it takes you 20 years to start turning a profit of 5k or more a month. But I do fully agree we do need to stop using the sutomated tools we have all grown to love. It simply is not going to happen in the next 5 years. Google is still king and will always be king.

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GeorgR.

13 years ago

Google is coming under huge criticism for people able to game the results.

Yes..and no!

It's not about "the bad people (aka SEOs)" able to game Google's results, but (excuse me!) MAINLY Google's fault that it is possible to "manipulate" the results.

The reason is that Google (IMO) still uses idiotic and way,way outdated concepts.

Let's start with the utterly moronic "PR". While "in theory" certainly a good idea...in practice this is nothing but a joke.

( Yesterday i see the new PR update and one of my sites which is nothing than an autoblog getting PR3 - a site which contains nothing but scraped content/news and where i never do anything with it. Other sites where i put lots of work in it, unique articles etc. get penalized for months and dont get PR at all. ONE EXAMPLE. Who cares about the idiotic PR? This should've been scraped years ago..but it still exists)

The same with utterly moronic (nothing more than) SYNTACTICAL HTML web site elements like H1 tags, bold etc...which obviously can decide how a site ranks solely based on what HTML tags are used in the code? Puuulease!!

And: Number of backlinks == $$$

Go look at the #1 result for "lose weight" where you can see the most obvious AdSense site which is some articles slapped together on a high CTR Adsense template. How did he get #1 for this keyword? Easy: Get 15.000 backlinks over time...and dominate Google

I am just saying...maybe it was necessary to fire/demote some guys since this is all utterly idiotic.

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KenThompson 13 years ago

Originally Posted by GeorgR.

I am just saying...maybe it was necessary to fire/demote some guys since this is all utterly idiotic.

I have received my info from what was posted here in the forum. So... it's
my impression the guy who was 'marginalized' was hired to run the business
back in the early days. He was not a tech person, at least that is my
impression.

So given that, it seems his retirement/firing would not be related to the points
you made. I would think the tech issues are well known to the two founders... ?

Another interesting point, one you'll love, is I have read G is putting local results
right on top of the regular organic results. At least they plan to, or it's slowly being
implemented etc.

So there will be possibly thinner sites outranking authority sites, real or contrived,
solely because they are local search results for presumably offline businesses.

Cool, eh?

Of course "nobody's" gaming the hell out of the G Places/local search listings. Oh no!

Ken
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Chris Worner

13 years ago

yawn......glad I am not dependent on Google for my income.

Chris

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davemiz

13 years ago

just read Harlan's google post.... and low and behold i found this just now on Digg.

Google ready for action against content farms | Relevant Results - CNET News

Interesting article.

What do you guys think?

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akazo

13 years ago

Wow, what a concept! Reward sites for having quality original content and "ding" sites full of replicated garbage.

Seriously, I think this is good news.

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GrowTallerNiche

13 years ago

I doubt the change will do a whole lot of good. It'll probably be one tiny little change that hurts the social bookmarkers more than the hardcore internet marketers.

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entry

13 years ago

How will this content farm rule affect PLR articles on your websites?

(lets say 5-10 different people have the same PLR articles on their websites, or blogs)

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inter123 13 years ago

Perhaps 'Demand Media' can see this is the end of the line which is why they are cashing in while things are hot. (In the same way as they did with MySpace).
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jtprattmedia 13 years ago

Originally Posted by entry

How will this content farm rule affect PLR articles on your websites?

(lets say 5-10 different people have the same PLR articles on their websites, or blogs)

Look, I'm not her to offend anybody for whatever kind of marketing they want to do - but I've long said that PLR is content pukery, and the people profiting are like snake oil salesman. That's a sweeping generalization, and I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule. The fact of the matter is is you're using the same content over and over - you will be a target and you don't deserve to rank for much. If your PLR is an a web site with lots of good original content - then you're probably in good standing.
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timpears

13 years ago

Originally Posted by entry

How will this content farm rule affect PLR articles on your websites?

(lets say 5-10 different people have the same PLR articles on their websites, or blogs)

Sounds like PLR will have a hard time of finding a place in the first page SERP listing. If you plan to use PLR, then you better rewrite it.

But what is a content farm?

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jtprattmedia

13 years ago

Originally Posted by timpears

Sounds like PLR will have a hard time of finding a place in the first page SERP listing. If you plan to use PLR, then you better rewrite it.

But what is a content farm?

"content farm" = scraper site. aggregator. spam site. sites that puke content from RSS feeds with nothing original at all. autoblogs.

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inter123 13 years ago

To the question:

Originally Posted by timpears

But what is a content farm?

One answer was:

Originally Posted by jtprattmedia

"content farm" = scraper site. aggregator. spam site. sites that puke content from RSS feeds with nothing original at all. autoblogs.

I am throughly confused. The OP has the link:

Google ready for action against content farms | Relevant Results - CNET News

which used the following as questionable content:

How to Prepare a House as Rental Property | eHow.com

The ehow webpage is providing content that is well written, gramatically correct, etc is providing "answers" on "what arrangements to make before renting a home". I would like to know why is something like this "shallow"?

(If something like this is questionable, 75% of Ezine Articles will dissapear. No wonder why they have they plastered their site with Adsense to drink up Adsense income in a last chance saloon).
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Matt Morgan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by timpears

But what is a content farm?

It is a special farm where cows go to writing school and learn the skills to write content for people.

They then 'disguise' themselves as content companies.

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Brandon Tanner

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt Morgan

It is a special farm where cows go to writing school and learn the skills to write content for people.

They then 'disguise' themselves as content companies.

And all this time I thought it was a farm where cows go when they are content with themselves. Now I'm really confused! :confused:

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Andyhenry

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt Morgan

It is a special farm where cows go to writing school and learn the skills to write content for people.

They then 'disguise' themselves as content companies.

Pull the udder one.

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WillR 13 years ago

Originally Posted by londonwarrior

This is complete garbage. Google makes all it's money from internet marketers, so why would it want to snuff them out?

Where are you getting your information from? To say Google makes all their money from Internet Marketers is just not true. Google make all their money from advertising. And what most Internet Marketers seem to overlook is that 80-90% of Googles advertising income is coming from a small list of very large companies. This whole IM arena is chump change to them.

Why do you think they so freely deleted a whole lot of Google Adwords accounts that belonged to IMers promoting their own or affiliate products? The money they are making from these people is not even worth mentioning and thus why people couldnt seem to understand why Google did not care about telling you why your account had been cancelled or giving you a warning first.

It's simple. They do not want your money. They do not want all the complications, technical support, etc that comes with all these Internet and affiliate marketers. It is simply not worth their time. They are trying to get rid of these people as much as they can from their search engine because they see them as nothing but a nuisance - and I would tend to agree on the most part.

Originally Posted by x3xsolxdierx3x

Google is literally about to make and break entire brands that are both emerging and have been developed for years.

Well if a brand can be broken by Google then IMO they were never a very strong brand to begin with. Putting all your eggs in one basket is only ever going to cause problems down the line.

The way I see it, nothing has changed. This is just re-enforcing the stance Google has taken for many years now. Those who have created websites with real worthwhile content will show favorably in the search results. Those sites that try and manipulate the system or offer nothing in value and just try to push products will go out the window.

There is an absolute ton of traffic out there ready for anybody who wants it - there is more traffic than there is people who want it. If a company cannot afford to advertise their services and still make a profit then they were never going to last in the long-term anyway. All these businesses built solely around the free traffic from search engines will always be standing on very shaky ground - and when something like this happens, all we can say is "I told you so...".
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jtprattmedia 13 years ago

I don't think google is trying to snuff out affiliate marketers at all. If you read the article - it says they are trying to combat scrapers and "low quality sites", especially sites that copy content verbatim (with attribution or not).

I know many people, some marketers in these very forums that think that autoblogging, autoposting, and scraping are actually valid forms of "affiliate marketing". Nothing could be further from the truth - that's just spam.

On the other hand, Matt Cutts and the googld quality guidelines both say the use of affiliate links with original content IS OK. They have no problems with it - and encourage quality original content sites with affiliate links.

There is a grey area though - and it's public perception. The majority on non-Internet saavy people wouldn't know an affiliate link if it bit them on the butt. But some more technical and saavy people will see an affiliate link "even on a GOOD original content site" and scream - SPAM! So, if google puts in place some "spam" button in Chrome - and you're site has some of the best diet information and reviews leading to affiliate links and some geeks "spam" it 15-20 times, you might have a hard time keeping traffic to your site from google....just my thoughts.
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x3xsolxdierx3x

13 years ago

Originally Posted by londonwarrior

This is complete garbage. Google makes all it's money from internet marketers, so why would it want to snuff them out? Google is trying to snuff out the worthless websites that somehow manage to get to to the top of their listings. Google wants to, and needs to, to provide relevant search results. This isn't happening very well at the moment. The soon the dross is snuffed out the better. This can't come soon enough. It is the best news i have heard for a long time.

Google is attempting to strike a near impossible balance to strike. Google wants to provide relevant search results, BUT they also want to make the most money as possible. Google is literally about to make and break entire brands that are both emerging and have been developed for years.

We have to step back and consider what truly makes a website "worth it" for Google. Google greatest interest is embedded within their huge network of advertisers and publishers. Ultimately, the websites with business models that incentivize highest quality content will, in the end, win. This is why it's absolutely important to step back and deconstruct TOS/editorial guidelines and general business models.

Some serious changes are about to occur online. Stay tuned.

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YoichiSpeaks 13 years ago

Google is probably just trying to clean and wipe away dust (old info) and defrag.

The internet gets polluted and there are no volunteers to clean it up.

The solution here is don't create crap infos and slap it on your website.
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Mohammad Afaq 13 years ago

This thread was posted yesterday:

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...-one-them.html

IMO, it's a good thing. I do admit that autobloggers and content farmers will just get sneakier and craftier but atleast here's a step in the right direction.
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newsi18 13 years ago

I think this will be Big.... Matt Cutts has announced this on Official Google Blog. He was serious about the allegations from Blogs like Techcrunch. There are many sites like Yahoo Answers, Answers.com and many Aggregators who will face severe downfall in their SERP Rankings.
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cashcow

13 years ago

This reminds me of what happened years ago when google made a huge change and dumped all the keyword scrapers from their index. A lot of good unique content sites took a hit as collateral and I'm sure it will happen this time too. Better buckle your seat belts.

Lee

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Matt,

I think they are definitely trying to snuff out affiliate and internet marketers. A lot of things that are now working can suddenly not work. Personally I don't like the thought of Google being able to one day uproot my business and killing the traffic and revenue. We think we are free but unless we are getting good referral traffic from other blogs and direct traffic we are at the mercy of Google.

Such a profusion of inanity, all in one small paragraph. Where to begin?

First, they're not trying to "snuff out" anything. They're trying to return relevance to their SERPs. If their results continue to slide in usefulness in the minds of their visitors, they lose share. With that share goes revenue.

Simple.

If your business depends that heavily on Google, you don't have a business. You have a search engine play.

As far as stuff not working that used to... Sure. That's going to happen. You're (hopefully) going to have to earn rankings, instead of manipulating the system to get them through trickery and deceit.

Yes, deceit. Anyone who uses tricks to make their site(s) appear more popular or authoritative than the market would make them is using Google's algorithm to disseminate a lie. And how dare the evil geniuses at the Big G onbject to being used in such a way by the noble SEO-geeks and link-droppers whose software works so hard to fake them out?!

The good news is that when there is a will there is a way. Whatever Google changes will give first mover advantage to those that learn to successfully negotiate and crack the new algorithmic code until we get to the same point we are at now and they change things again.

Anyone who has ever wondered why so many people think poorly of online marketers in this space need only re-read this quoted section for their answer.

Too many of us don't care what other people want done with their sites. They'll do anything at all within their technological power to get what they want, and to hell with the damage they cause in the process.

As far as "content farms" specifically... why would any search engine want the same content showing up in their results multiple times on the first page? Or content that's only loosely connected to other information on the same subject? The useful results come when someone finds a site that answers all their questions, rather than sort of answering one, and then including a lot of dreck that's irrelevant to that searcher?

This isn't rocket science to figure out, folks.

Paul

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bgmacaw

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

If your business depends that heavily on Google, you don't have a business. You have a search engine play.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

<sigh> More of this nonsense from the "cool kid" email marketers on this forum.

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bgmacaw

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

<sigh> More of this nonsense from the "cool kid" email marketers on this forum.

If you have a specific rebuttal to what I said, I'm happy to hear it. If you're just going to snark, go somewhere else and do it. There's been quite enough of that here lately.

Paul

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bgmacaw

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

If you have a specific rebuttal to what I said, I'm happy to hear it.

I've posted it time and time again here as others have done. You and other emailers ignore it so why should bother to do it again?

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

If you're just going to snark, go somewhere else and do it. There's been quite enough of that here lately.

And your response and others by other email spamming JV marketers wasn't snarky too. :rolleyes:

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

I've posted it time and time again here as others have done. You and other emailers ignore it so why should bother to do it again?

Really? It's strange that I don't recall it. But I don't read every thread, so maybe not that strange.

I didn't say SEO was unimportant, as part of a strategy. I said, in response to the suggestion that Google was trying to "snuff out" whole categories of businesses, that being that vulnerable to one site's actions was a sign you don't have a real business.

Feel free to refute that.

And your response and others by other email spamming JV marketers wasn't snarky too.

I didn't say you shouldn't be snarky. Just that you shouldn't "just" be snarky. Back it up, and it usually gets the same play as any other comment.

BTW, if you're going to refer to me as "spamming," or even a "JV marketer," you may want to provide some backing for those implications, too. Like, say, a definition of 'spam' as you mean the word.

JV-wise, I can only recall having promoted one (1) affiliate product in the past two years. Might be more, but it's really not a common thing. Hardly makes me a "JV marketer."

Paul

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Martin Luxton

13 years ago

The interesting thing I took from the article was the link to stuff about the Demand Media IPO.

They did some financial legerdemain and got the authorities to accept their content was 'evergreen', i.e. each article would bring in money for at least 5 years.

Now, if you think they are just a content farm and Google are going to zap them soon, their shares are a disaster waiting to happen.

A warning in Demand's own brochure

"Changes from the five-year useful life we currently use to amortize our capitalized content would have a significant impact on our financial statements. For example, if underlying assumptions were to change such that our estimate of the weighted average useful life of our media content was higher by one year from January 1, 2010, our net loss would decrease by approximately $1.6 million for the nine months ended September 30, 2010, and would increase by approximately $2.4 million should the weighted average useful life be reduced by one year."

An interesting thought for all of us - "How evergreen is your content/site/product/business model?"

On the bright side for Demand, the IPO is being handled by Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley. Those guys could sell a pig in a poke for $10 billion.

Martin

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Phunin

13 years ago

Lol, interesting yet expected to hear from Google. I'm personally waiting to see the ultimate fate of autoblogs, and whether they will lose all profitability in the future, seeing as how they said they're gonna backslap "clear content-scrapers, whether credit is given or not."

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ExRat

13 years ago

Hi Phunin,

Originally Posted by Phunin

Lol, interesting yet expected to hear from Google. I'm personally waiting to see the ultimate fate of autoblogs, and whether they will lose all profitability in the future, seeing as how they said they're gonna backslap "clear content-scrapers, whether credit is given or not."

Yes it will be interesting to see Google backslap themselves, seeing as how they are 'clear content-scrapers.'

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hilaryaustin 13 years ago

well this changes should make a big impact to all. And for sure some of it will affected with huge effects. Some might be lucky to have less adjustments to make after the judgment. But lets just see how google can sum up all of there final judgment.
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tritrain

13 years ago

For those of us that are writing original content, this could be a really good thing.

Also, for high quality writers, this could be a major bump to their income.

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drmani

13 years ago

A few years back, I wrote an article. It is posted on the
article forum here, too.

Here's an excerpt from it that's relevant to this discussion:

If I asked you to name some online GIANTS, you'd likely
include these names:

Google
Yahoo!
eBay
Squidoo
Del.icio.us

All of these are places where MILLIONS of people flock
to every day to do many different things.

And each of these giants can be made to pay YOU cash!

You can get familiar and friendly with these giants,
work with them to further their ends... and make a
tidy profit.

It begins with studying the giant's purpose.

Google and Yahoo are search services. They compile and
sort through massive mounds of data to give their users
a productive, useful search experience.

...

Understanding this core purpose of each of the giants
puts you far ahead of the crowd of competitors seeking
to profit from them.

There are ways to take advantage ethically of the huge
crowds they have aggregated. And there are manipulative
ways to exploit them too. Which you choose to use is a
reflection of your personal philosophy and approach to
working online.

Take Google and Yahoo! for instance. You could build
a website that is the answer to any searcher's dream -
rich with solid, useful content, containing relevant
keywords, linked to related sites. Or you could try
SEO tricks which seek to pervert the system and fool
the engines into ranking you higher than your site
deserves.

Guess which works better in the long term?

...

Zig Ziglar said it well:

"You can have everything you want if you give enough
others everything they want."

All success
Dr.Mani

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Dunder 13 years ago

Having an online business means adapting to change and not being heavily dependant on one single source of traffic or income.

The successful marketers will adapt and continue to have successful business - and will repeat the process again once something else in their business changes.
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A P Geofrey 13 years ago

Well being one of the few people who have always said that auto blogging, article rewrite all that sort cuts are spam and worthless I think this is actually some very good news to me and I will do my little dance right no so excuse me.

Finished dancing! ! !

Thank you goolge I can be sure to outrank all those spammers yuppi!!!
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davemiz 13 years ago

dr mani.... it's always a pleasure listening to you.

like dr mani, I've been at this a long time.... Here's what I've learned:

you can spend the time and do all the latest 'hack' and 'loophole'... and yes.... they will work, for a short while (could be months, could be a year or so).

or, you can spend the same time, do it right, long term thinking... i.e. fundamentals.... and slowly and gradually build up.

when you look back 5 years later...

The person who used the latest 'loophole' is still like a yo yo... income is always up and down and never consistent. Wondering why things aren't better... wishing they had followed the long term path... they're still looking for the latest and greatest secret.

The second person, is still building their business.... income is consistent and always increasing as the results start to multiply.

you're investing the same amount of time either way.
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Winlin 13 years ago

Originally Posted by illinimatt81

Personally I don't like the thought of Google being able to one day uproot my business and killing the traffic and revenue.

I understand what you are saying, however don't you agree, It's very much because of Google you have this opportunity? After all where does the majority of your competitive knowledge come from? The market they developed? " Dance With The Devil And You May Get Burned' - good luck to all of us - WinLin
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- x3xsolxdierx3x 13 years ago
  
  No site is infallible. The wise and prudent IM'er will do their best to stay a few steps ahead.
  
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Fernando Veloso 13 years ago

Google is ALWAYS onto something, isn't it? After all, they are a bunch of clever guys!!! Some say they have the smartest guys working for them.

Is that so?

Please explain to me WHY a simple report gets stuck in CyberSpace for YEARS while bluefarters get rich????

WHY a paid link report gets stuck for YEARS while "smart" guys get rich?

WHY? WHY? WHY?

Tell you something: Google can end all the "content farms" they want... de-index them, crush them, eat them at breakfast... whatever. I just don't give a foink now.

Know WHY? Cause the bad guys always win this game.

Quite frankly, Google can kiss my ass.
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rkcc4

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Google has gone from being a search engine to being a gatekeeper and de facto censor.

They are not geniuses, they are thinly disguised bureaucrats who make their living from the work of others.

To hell with them.

Originally Posted by KenThompson

Mr. Caudill...

We drink from the same pot of coffee.

Well done.
Ken

I am always amazed when I read posts like these. Google is a commercial company offering many free services which it exploits via advertising. It is their engine, they can do what they like with it. If you don't like it start a movement or protest for Bing or whatever alternative you have in mind.

Better still go write your own search engine and make it so compelling that users switch in droves. Start an open source community to develop Noogle, Boogle or Doodle.

Google is not a censor, it is up against an army of warriors (us) who like any salesman on a commission plan, try to beat the odds. They have to be seen to "try" to even things up.

Google provide a LOT of employment, for many of us and as for living from the work of others, what are you talking about man? Every boss of every company is making a living from the work of others.

Some people don't want to work for themselves, they don't have the courage, spirit or determination so they work for someone else. If they do a good job they are valued and paid accordingly. The boss takes all the risk and is entitled to the reward. If the employee has a problem with that, then S/he is free to setup their own company.

We do NOT own the Internet, it is not free, you pay for it via your ISP. What it DOES do is provide a completely different route to market. What would the costs be if you were to open a shop in your local mall or high street, that over priced real estate will bring you customer in your niche in your area. The internet gives you a means to buy a shop for $3, to spend a lot of time making it valuable and relevant with good content, so it can make money.

Think about it, we can't all be on the first page for our particular business, but Google provides free tools that enable us to exploit their system. They also allow others access to an API so they can develop tools on top.

So I say good luck to Google, just like any company, it is exploiting it value for the benefit of customers and shareholders.

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KenThompson

13 years ago

Originally Posted by rkcc4

I am always amazed when I read posts like these. Google is a commercial company offering many free services which it exploits via advertising. It is their engine, they can do what they like with it. If you don't like it start a movement or protest for Bing or whatever alternative you have in mind.

Perhaps we can try this, again?

I am no less equally amazed at many things your comments represent. But that's ok.

No one is disputing or saying they cannot do what they want with it.

If you do not like what we have to say about your employer, or how we feel about them, then you will need to find a way to deal with it, or not.

Better still go write your own search engine and make it so compelling that users switch in droves. Start an open source community to develop Noogle, Boogle or Doodle.

Interesting, thank you.

Google is not a censor, it is up against an army of warriors (us) who like any salesman on a commission plan, try to beat the odds. They have to be seen to "try" to even things up.

Not a censor? We obviously have different ideas about what constitutes censorship. But that's unimportant, and I accept what they do. At least I am willing to call a spade, a spade.

Yes, I do understand that Google has shareholders as well as their own customers/users. So they do provide a product, and like any other product it has to be good. No problem.

Google provide a LOT of employment, for many of us and as for living from the work of others, what are you talking about man? Every boss of every company is making a living from the work of others.

You have no idea what I'm talking about. I cannot speak for Mr. Caudill.

Some people don't want to work for themselves, they don't have the courage, spirit or determination so they work for someone else. If they do a good job they are valued and paid accordingly. The boss takes all the risk and is entitled to the reward. If the employee has a problem with that, then S/he is free to setup their own company.

I think very many of us, including me, understand the dynamics involved; dare I say, maybe some understand much more than you.

You comment about who takes all the risk, in my mind, does not reflect a complete understanding of everything that's involved regarding risk/reward.

We do NOT own the Internet, it is not free, you pay for it via your ISP. What it DOES do is provide a completely different route to market. What would the costs be if you were to open a shop in your local mall or high street, that over priced real estate will bring you customer in your niche in your area. The internet gives you a means to buy a shop for $3, to spend a lot of time making it valuable and relevant with good content, so it can make money.

You are totally preaching to the choir in more ways than you comprehend.

I will only comment on the first statement in the above paragraph...

There are very many who would disagree with what seems to be Google's attitude. There is much I could say to support my assertion. But I will not because it will only attract the ire of the moderators, here.

We are from two different planets, or perspectives, and it seems clear you do not know the view that many others have of your employer.

Think about it, we can't all be on the first page for our particular business, but Google provides free tools that enable us to exploit their system. They also allow others access to an API so they can develop tools on top.

No need to tell the people in this forum to think about that. I think most of us are aware of what Google provides and what to do with them.

Free from Google? Free is a relative term. Nothing is really free - but that's another forbidden topic.

So I say good luck to Google, just like any company, it is exploiting it value for the benefit of customers and shareholders.

[/quote]

You evidently work for Google, and that's cool. I have no problem with that and don't care.

But in my opinion, your comments reveal more than you intended. We know very well what is being exploited and for whom. Yes, we benefit from that as well as Google; some of us do, at least.

But Google, and you, would be nowhere if it wasn't for the people you are walking among here in this forum. Right? Do you see that?

This is not about those who game and those who do not. I would have been content to let this go until I noticed someone was 'piqued.' So ok, that is fine. We can talk...

You do not like what Mr. Caudill and I said, or how we feel, or why? You have no clue why we feel the way we do. None. Do not assume it is because we violate your employer's TOS and cannot have free rein. That would be wholly incorrect.

Considering the blood that has been shed by many people in this forum in the pursuit of our own individual desires and dreams... the courage and assbeat long hard days, pal..

We have earned the right to express our feelings about your employer.

Ken

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clever7

13 years ago

Google is merely a marketer. It doesn't represent justice online. This is why it encourages what it is supposed to condemn. I don't think that dishonest marketers will stop being dishonest 'now', or that Google should be considered a fair system.

Google doesn't give any advantages to honest content producers.

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spudnick

13 years ago

I think this happens everywhere in life - not just on the Internet and not just in business.

There are people who are always ready to push the envelope (and not in a good way) to earn a quick buck. There are also those that take advantage of other people, or situations, for WIN-LOSE situations. I always prefer the WIN-WIN wherever possible.

I believe that in the long run, those that build truly solid business based on solid tactics will achieve great success in the long term.

Good topic Harlan. Great to have something to wrap my mind around this afternoon.

cheers,

Spudnick

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ankur sharma

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

I've been around the block a few times in Internet marketing. I've seen tricks to get to the top of Google come and go.

I even wrote copy for a product that was so effective, Google and all the blogs banned it in a few days.

And as I cruise the Warrior Forum, I see product after product that's designed to game the system.

So I want to ask you a question.

Do you want to build a real business or one that's built on quicksand?

And if you pay attention to what's going on in the news, you'll want to stop buying these miracle products.

Here's why.

Google "fired" it's CEO yesterday - Eric Schmidt. He was brought aboard by Larry Page and Sergey Brinn in the old days because Wall Street wanted to see an adult running the show.

Larry and Sergey didn't know how to run a business. They knew how to build a search engine.

And they kicked Schmidt to another position (think retirement village) so Larry Page can run the show.

Page is the source of the term - Page Rank.

Yes, Facebook is kicking Google up one side of the street and down the other but there's something more going on.

Google is coming under huge criticism for people able to game the results.

Running SENuke, EVO, or Scrapebox is not what Google intended for search.

Internet marketers have a way of killing the golden goose.

First dishonest marketers killed the easy Adsense money.

Next, dishonest marketers killed the easy Adwords money.

Most recently, dishonest marketers killed the easy CPA money.

And now auto-blogging is dying a rapid death.

And who's fault is this?

It's the fault of every single person who buys or uses one of these "game the system" programs.

It's the fault of every single person who wants the dirty shortcuts, black hat techniques, and refuses to build a real business.

Guys, the Internet is overflowing with real money.

You can make money is 100 different ways.

But screw with the system and we all suffer.

Here's by prediction: There will be a totally different Google equation by the end of 2011 and all the tricks you are using now will be worthless.

And soon, there will be more tools for you to by to game the new system.

Don't do it.

Build a real business on a solid foundation.

No one can take that away from you.

What do you think? Agree? Disagree?

Peace,

Harlan

Funny thing is your signature says "Do no work and make money online". Before google, you need to change your signature. Lol

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jasonboom

13 years ago

Schmidt was only there because he was the figurehead Wall Street wanted. I do agree that many things have been ruined by blackhat techniques, but I highly doubt Google would be foolish enough to completely change their algorithm overnight. More likely they will continue to do what they're doing and rake in over 8 billion in a quarter.

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MillionaireMarketing

13 years ago

Excellent post! I sometimes wish I could be a fly on the wall of a Google meeting in which all of the algorithm writers are sitting around talking about the ways they plan to shake things up...

The funny thing about internet marketing is that it will always the source of the answers AND the reason for the problems... a bit of a vicious circle, me thinks....

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smartlazy

Banned 13 years ago

I agree with your points, Harlan. But whose fault it is?

I personally don't blame guys who "game" the system. I believe that many people who "game" the system are the small business owners who don't have the resources to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on SEO companies.

If tools such as SENuke, Scrapebox, etc. are not around, how the heck can we, the small guys, compete with the giant companies like Amazon, Ebay, Microsoft, Facebook, etc.? These tools, even they're grey hat or black hat, has helped level the playing field so that small guys can earn money from the Internet.

If all people resort to "honest" techniques, then no way small-time marketers are gonna rank in page one, competing with giant companies with giant marketing budgets.

I'm not condoning black-hat and other unethical methods, anyway.

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mahesh2k

13 years ago

I just hope the people who are stealing my content to build autoblogs get slapped with this new update. I had enough of plagiarism crap in the excuse of feed and news site which simply kills my traffic.

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CDarklock

13 years ago

Originally Posted by cosmokid

I'm sorry, but if I'm searching for a book on "How to Care for My Pygmy Hippopotamus" and there is a book on Amazon carefully written by an expert on pygmy hippopatami (sp?)then that book result should at least show up in the first page search results.

One must, however, wonder why you are not searching your favourite online bookstore instead of the entire web.

There's someone else out there right now searching for "How to Care for My Pygmy Hippopotamus" who would complain just as long, loud, and hard about all the first-page search results being things that cost money.

Google has to choose one of these as "right," and since your problem of finding a book can be readily worked around by searching a bookstore... they choose to scratch the other guy's itch.

It's sort of like when you're looking for your keys and you start in the back yard. Your keys are probably not in the back yard. Start searching where they're most likely to be, instead of searching everything.

Not to diminish Harlan's original point, of course. There is too much crap out there, and there are too many people gaming the search engines.

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imon32red

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

So I want to ask you a question.

Build a real business on a solid foundation.

No one can take that away from you.

What do you think? Agree? Disagree?

I agree. I really don't know much about internet marketing. I do know a good business idea when I spot one. I admit that I have tried many different things, and will still try new things that I see in IM. I am always looking for ways to increase my passive income. I am also always looking for income sources that I can show friends and family to help them increase their income.

I will say this though. I have legitimate business ideas that I setup years ago, that still make me money every month. Every project that I pursue I look at the long term prospects, not short term.

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Bruce Wedding

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

Google "fired" it's CEO yesterday - Eric Schmidt. He was brought aboard by Larry Page and Sergey Brinn in the old days because Wall Street wanted to see an adult running the show.

Larry and Sergey didn't know how to run a business. They knew how to build a search engine.

And they kicked Schmidt to another position (think retirement village) so Larry Page can run the show.

PS: Retirement village? He's worth $5.8 billion and is selling $335million worth next year for some pocket money.

Eric Schmidt, Google's outgoing CEO, to cash out shares worth $335 million | Technology | Los Angeles Times

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 13 years ago

Build a real business on a solid foundation

You mean like this product of yours Harlan? - Beach Millions

Update: I note someone else has already said above

When you stop being a total hypocrite, perhaps people will listen to you

and yet there they all are lining up to give you thanks.

UNREAL.

BTW you're way off base with the snipe at Schmidt. There may not have been the Google we know without his stewardship. Its more a case of the boys have grown up to fill his shoes rather than his being put into a "retirement village" as you put it.

I shake my head.

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bay37 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Metronicity

Update: I note someone else has already said above and yet there they all are lining up to give you thanks.

UNREAL.

Think 2004 join date. Think "..." profile picture. Think "strong talk" (no matter how random). Aaannnnd on top of all that it's a rant thread - the type some of the I-know-all people just love. Easy.

You talk a good game, OP. Beach millions.
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Andyhenry

13 years ago

Next thing we know - there'll be a big launch to 'protect us' from the spam and do things 'properly'.

Too much noise about something like this always make me suspicious that people are trying to build a buzz ready to sell something....

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TZ

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

Internet marketers have a way of killing the golden goose. - Wrong

First dishonest marketers killed the easy Adsense money. - Wrong (never was any "EASY")

Next, dishonest marketers killed the easy Adwords money. - Right

Most recently, dishonest marketers killed the easy CPA money. - Very wrong!

And now auto-blogging is dying a rapid death. - So wrong!

I mean basically it's sound advice Harlan, but there is only so much you can make with pure original content. Only so much you can write in a day.

Automation allows for huge growth, and if it's done correctly your content is NOT DUP.

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Harlan

13 years ago

Originally Posted by TZ

I mean basically it's sound advice Harlan, but there is only so much you can make with pure original content. Only so much you can write in a day.

Automation allows for huge growth, and if it's done correctly your content is NOT DUP.

I completely agree with you. And that's why I've created and I'm privately testing my own software for this purpose.

Right now, I'm just letting a handful of people I know to be ethical help me test it.

One person has jumped up highly in SEO rankings in a hotly contested niche using this tool. It requires much further study to see if people use it the way it is designed.

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Joe Russell

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

I completely agree with you. And that's why I've created and I'm privately testing my own software for this purpose.

Right now, I'm just letting a handful of people I know to be ethical help me test it.

One person has jumped up highly in SEO rankings in a hotly contested niche using this tool. It requires much further study to see if people use it the way it is designed.

Sorry Harlan but the post I quoted above does look like you may have had other intentions in starting this thread.

Furthermore that was in response to this post from TZ:

Originally Posted by TZ

I mean basically it's sound advice Harlan, but there is only so much you can make with pure original content. Only so much you can write in a day.

Automation allows for huge growth, and if it's done correctly your content is NOT DUP.

In your your original post you are blaming Googles results issues on automation tools such as SEnuke and those that use them yet you are now mentioning an SEO automation tool of your own...go figure.

People have been looking for ways to "game" the search engines to obtain increased rankings since day one, long before any automation tools existed....after all that is how SEO was born.

Technically, implementing any SEO strategy, regardless of hat color could be construed as "gaming the system". Even Harlan's new software he decided to conveniently mention will inevitably somehow game the system if it is intended for increased search engine rankings which the post I quoted above alludes to.

However, the issue resulting in Google's poor search results isn't gaming of the system with SEO strategies OR automation, it is Content SPAM submitted by unethical marketers.

There is absolutely no difference between manually submitted content and auto submitted content, it is the user who decides the quality of that content and the frequency in which it should be promoted. If the content is top notch and a scheduled submission strategy is in place you are not contributing to any of Googles problems.

Also, to say that automation tools can't or shouldn't be a part of any REAL businesses long term SEO strategy is totally false and misleading. You would be surprised to hear the names of some large mainstream corporations and SEO companies who effectively and ethically use automation as part of their overall SEO strategy however, privacy agreements prohibit me from mentioning.

Maybe my suspicions are wrong and Harlan doesn't have alternate intentions in starting this thread but either way, to blame Googles issues on automation tools and those that use them, at the least is misleading.

Joe Russell

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Harlan 13 years ago

Actually Joe, there are tools and there are tools.

There are tools that scrape content without attribution and basically steal the content.

There are tools that scape content with attribution but still are basically stealing the content.

And then there are tools that find content, insist that you add to or modify the content, and link back to the original content.

Let me say from the outset, I'm not selling this tool.

It's not tested.

And I really built it for myself and a close circle of friends.

We've been in touch with some top bloggers about it.

Bloggers don't like tools like this because the sites built with software like this will almost always outrank the original sites.

But right now, this is an academic discussion because my software is definitely not for sale at any price.

I wouldn't sell something if I didn't know whether it worked.

It's being tested now in five distinct hotly contest niches.

And it's the results that count.

Peace,

Harlan
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perfectlovehere

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

I've been around the block a few times in Internet marketing. I've seen tricks to get to the top of Google come and go.

I even wrote copy for a product that was so effective, Google and all the blogs banned it in a few days.

And as I cruise the Warrior Forum, I see product after product that's designed to game the system.

So I want to ask you a question.

Do you want to build a real business or one that's built on quicksand?

And if you pay attention to what's going on in the news, you'll want to stop buying these miracle products.

Here's why.

Google "fired" it's CEO yesterday - Eric Schmidt. He was brought aboard by Larry Page and Sergey Brinn in the old days because Wall Street wanted to see an adult running the show.

Larry and Sergey didn't know how to run a business. They knew how to build a search engine.

And they kicked Schmidt to another position (think retirement village) so Larry Page can run the show.

Page is the source of the term - Page Rank.

Yes, Facebook is kicking Google up one side of the street and down the other but there's something more going on.

Google is coming under huge criticism for people able to game the results.

Running SENuke, EVO, or Scrapebox is not what Google intended for search.

Internet marketers have a way of killing the golden goose.

First dishonest marketers killed the easy Adsense money.

Next, dishonest marketers killed the easy Adwords money.

Most recently, dishonest marketers killed the easy CPA money.

And now auto-blogging is dying a rapid death.

And who's fault is this?

It's the fault of every single person who buys or uses one of these "game the system" programs.

It's the fault of every single person who wants the dirty shortcuts, black hat techniques, and refuses to build a real business.

Guys, the Internet is overflowing with real money.

You can make money is 100 different ways.

But screw with the system and we all suffer.

Here's by prediction: There will be a totally different Google equation by the end of 2011 and all the tricks you are using now will be worthless.

And soon, there will be more tools for you to by to game the new system.

Don't do it.

Build a real business on a solid foundation.

No one can take that away from you.

What do you think? Agree? Disagree?

Peace,

Harlan

Brilliant post, Harlan!

I definitely agree. Google updates their algorithms so often now that once something is finally mastered another (sometimes more difficult) program will take its place.

It's worth it to note that "the money is in the list" (I feel so cliche for saying that

) so I would recommend everyone on here to be focusing on that primarily... NOT google.

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tpw

13 years ago

Matt Cutts is speaking again from the Ivory Tower at Google:
Google ready for action against content farms | Relevant Results - CNET News

People are already crying about the end of the world... And making suggestions that this will be the end to your profits and theirs...

But the truth is that Google has not taken any action yet...

Right now, Google is only starting the feedback process...

When Google targeted paid links for discount, they made the announcement in March and executed in July, after they allowed the public to feedback on suggested changes...

When they announced, they invited the public to follow up with them with suggestions, then they started watching the forums to let others hash out the pro's and con's of the proposed changes...

They will do the same here...

To date, Google is only putting out the call for feedback...

All changes will come after the discussion has run its course, and the Google engineers have figured out how to implement the recommendations...

So rather than cry about how the sky is falling, let us start the discussion from the point of view of Warriors...

Believe it or not, we now have an opportunity to influence Google's future response to this identified issue...

p.s. I have been saying publicly since 2006 that one of the best ways to address the junk content issue is to look at the article directories (which are easily identifiable by Google) and to look for articles that are published on them AND on authority websites.

If Google can identify an article posted on a bunch of article directories and not published elsewhere, then Google has a signal that it is a junk article.

If Google can see an article in an article directory AND on an authority websites, which are known to hand approve articles, then Google has a clear signal that the article was worthy of reprint elsewhere, and therefore, good quality content...

Let the human drive the algorithm, and the algorithm will prove more effective.

Your turn...

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perfectlovehere 13 years ago

I'm not 100% sure what you're saying. Are you alluding to the auto-blog content some people are pushing out? And if so what can we do about Google perhaps taking action?
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Zeus66

13 years ago

How about this? We make a concerted effort - as smart marketers... that's what we all are, right? - to lessen the stranglehold Google has on our businesses. I've been doing that for about 8 months now. And let me tell you, as someone who has been more or less dependent on Google for several years now for a big chunk of my income, it's such a nice feeling to be able to breathe again. LOL

I don't wake up dreading what Google might have changed while I was sleeping that might have ruined a large % of my income. I'll always have that worry to some extent, as will most of us, but the point is to lessen that concern to the point of only taking a minor hit if they do make some sweeping changes that wreck your rankings.

Re: your OP, Bill, spot on. If the sky is about to fall for some of us, it isn't going to happen so soon that you don't have time to prepare and adapt. Don't sit in fear in your cave and hope the gods spare you. Be proactive. Get out there and start developing streams of income that are not reliant on Google rankings. They're out there! Get serious about it.

John

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tpw

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

How about this? We make a concerted effort - as smart marketers... that's what we all are, right? - to lessen the stranglehold Google has on our businesses. I've been doing that for about 8 months now. And let me tell you, as someone who has been more or less dependent on Google for several years now for a big chunk of my income, it's such a nice feeling to be able to breathe again. LOL

I don't wake up dreading what Google might have changed while I was sleeping that might have ruined a large % of my income. I'll always have that worry to some extent, as will most of us, but the point is to lessen that concern to the point of only taking a minor hit if they do make some sweeping changes that wreck your rankings.

Re: your OP, Bill, spot on. If the sky is about to fall for some of us, it isn't going to happen so soon that you don't have time to prepare and adapt. Don't sit in fear in your cave and hope the gods spare you. Be proactive. Get out there and start developing streams of income that are not reliant on Google rankings. They're out there! Get serious about it.

John

Absolutely John. We must always diversify our traffic sources.

The more you diversify, the less you have to rely on Google, our Dominatrix master.

She speaks and webmasters everywhere get down on their knees to worship their mistress.

But when your traffic comes from multiple sources, you win.

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sanssecret 13 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

She speaks and webmasters everywhere get down on their knees to worship their mistress.

Finally, someone else who admits that Google is a woman. :p
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inter123

13 years ago

Examples of Article Directories are Ezine Article, Go Articles, Article Dashboard, etc. What are examples of Authority Websites which publish content in a similar way to directories?

Originally Posted by tpw

If Google can see an article in an article directory AND on an authority websites, which are known to hand approve articles, then Google has a clear signal that the article was worthy of reprint elsewhere, and therefore, good quality content...

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tpw

13 years ago

Originally Posted by inter123

Examples of Article Directories are Ezine Article, Go Articles, Article Dashboard, etc. What are examples of Authority Websites which publish content in a similar way to directories?

Authority websites don't publish articles in a similar way to directories.

Authority websites like SiteProNews, WebProNews, About.com, WebMd look for and frequently publish articles given to them by article marketers, but they are very selective about what they publish.

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Paul Barrs

13 years ago

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Zeus66

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Barrs

But then, I haven't relied on Google since the big kick back of 2004; the majority of my traffic comes from referral sites. It may not be as much as some, but it's steady, reliable and consistent.
Paul

Bingo! As a group, we marketers are obsessed to an unhealthy degree on TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC!!!

Change the focus to converting that traffic to buyers at a higher rate and suddenly you aren't that worried about finding more traffic all the time. That's one way.

The other way is to develop products/services that give you a pretty hefty profit per sale. Again, the effect is a lessening of the pressure to find traffic all the time.

It's all about working smarter, not harder. Treat your business as a business. Too many of us treat what we do as a glorified hobby or just a way to make money.

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drmani

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Change the focus to converting that traffic to buyers at a higher rate and suddenly you aren't that worried about finding more traffic all the time. That's one way.

The other way is to develop products/services that give you a pretty hefty profit per sale. Again, the effect is a lessening of the pressure to find traffic all the time.

Absolutely.

And the MAGIC happens by taking such good care of those who bought from
you, delivering so much value on an ongoing basis, that they have no choice
but to keep coming back for more - which you give them, based on their now
growing and different wants/needs.

Lifetime customer value is so severely under-estimated, everyone serious about
building a business should be sat down and FORCED to understand it before
going too far.

As my mentor Jay Abraham says, "If you're selling one product, you don't have
a business... you have a PROMOTION!"

All success
Dr.Mani

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Fraggler

13 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

p.s. I have been saying publicly since 2006 that one of the best ways to address the junk content issue is to look at the article directories (which are easily identifiable by Google) and to look for articles that are published on them AND on authority websites.

...

Your turn...

Google should already be taking this into account in their algorithm if they hired these blokes (Hilltop: A Search Engine based on Expert Documents) for their approach to a search engine.

They still have to remove bias though so I would assume that the authority sites are programmatically categorised and not manually.

It's a great idea but can still be manipulated unless the top level of authority sites have human influence. The problem with adding the human factor in such a lucrative industry is that money may buy rankings.

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sellerscompanion

13 years ago

I have to say that for the most part, I agree with your post. This is something I talked at length about recently with some marketing friends. It seems like many people are building their businesses on sand. You have to build a business that will thrive whether Google loves you or not. You have to brand yourself and your business and provide true value to build a business that will last. All of this flash in the pan stuff that gets a site to #1 in 2 days flat is not a long term business model.

I guess it all depends on what you are trying to build. If you want quick money and continuous work to "keep up", then use the latest, greatest, newest shiny thing to do what you need. But, if you want to have a business that pays you, makes money even when you are not in it and leaves you with a great reputation, then it takes more work, thought and quality to have that. Unfortunately, that mentality is not nearly as glamorous for the crowd who wants to believe you can make $1 million in 4 hours by sitting at your desk clicking buttons.

CC

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Fernando Veloso

13 years ago

Arrrrggg!!!!!!

Who cares about content farms when you have kazilions of spammers/bluefarters ranking TOP 3 on so many markets using paidlinks or Cloaked pages?

Seriously! Google HAS to create a report channel THAT works.

THEN they can go after content farms: the 2011 (marketing) goal...

:rolleyes:

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daangertenaar

13 years ago

I wonder, is building your own quality backlinks cheating? I know Google wants to see natural backlinks, but isn't this almost impossible for lots of niches, unless you have something very original, new and usefull?

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KenThompson

13 years ago

Andy... a sane man in an insane world will appear to be insane.

So be careful!

Ken

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Rus Sells

13 years ago

I don't agree with you because a couple of your signature links appear to completely contradict the point of view in your post.

How does one build a real business without any work? beach millions? WTF-EVER!

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

Russ,

How does one build a real business without any work?

I noticed the other day that one of my quotes was being used in a sig file here. It seems appropriate for this thread:

"Anyone who tries to tell you that you can run a business without work is probably trying to sell you something that won't."

Paul
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