The Human Element...Or Why Johnny Can't Make Money Online

33 replies
I am starting this thread at 5:07 PM EST. I have no idea when I'll be done
with it.

Sometimes a post will just hit me the right way and it will make me realize
things that I sometimes take for granted.

In this case, I'm talking about The Human Element.

It's funny how we get people who come to this forum and elsewhere and
say things like...

"Look, just give me a quick and easy system that will generate me $300
cash a week. That's all I want."

Well, it may be all that Johnny wants, but it doesn't exist.

Oh I know, there will be hundreds of people jumping all over this post
telling me that I'm wrong, and I'm expecting it. Hell, I welcome it. But
before you do, keep reading. You may not be so quick to jump.

Let's take what I feel most people consider the most efficient way to make
money online...generating traffic through pay per click advertising.

Let's face it, a person will...

1. Only see your ad if they're looking up the keywords you're using.
2. Only click on your ad if it appears to be what they're looking for.

Ah, but you see, that's where the human element comes in.

Ever read a book on Adwords?

The setup part is pretty simple. Heck, there are plenty of guides online
that will show you how to do this, including Google, for free.

But when you get into the real meat of the book itself, you'll find that it
all revolves around ad writing. How to write a compelling ad that will get
prospects to click on our ads and get them to our sales page.

Well, here's the news flash. Not everybody can write a good ad. Worse
than that...not everybody can learn to write a good ad.

I consider myself a decent copywriter, but if I'm honest, I'm no pro. If I
want to get affiliates to sell my products, I have to either learn to write
better copy or hire a pro to do it. Honestly, I don't think I'm going to get
much better than I am because I really don't put the time into learning
the craft that I should. I write well enough to sell my products by
myself. So when I launch my next major release, a pro is going to do it.

So okay, you can say, "So the person can't write an Adwords ad himself.
Get somebody to do it for him."

That's all well and good, but I don't know many people who will do this
for free. And even if somebody does offer, there is still the human element
involved. HE better be able to write an ad that converts.

And you can apply this to article writing or whatever.

My simplest business model is this and I'm putting it out there for anybody
to use.

1. Pick a product from the Clickbank marketplace that has proven to sell.
2. Buy the product.
3. Write a review of the product and put the review on your blog.
4. At the end of the review, put a link to the sales page.
5. Write a series of articles on the subject and submit to Ezine Articles.
6. Make sure the resource box points to your blog.

This simple system makes me sales on a regular basis...but...

Look at all the places where this model can blow up in your face because
of the human element.

1. You pick the wrong product.
2. You write a crappy review.
3. You pick a lousy blog name.
4. You write a lousy article.
5. You write a lousy resource box.
6. You don't write enough articles.
7. You've picked a lousy niche to begin with.

The human element. You can't escape it. And because of that, you can't
guarantee that any system, no matter how simple, is going to work for
somebody.

And the lower the intelligence of the person, the harder any system
becomes.

Outsource it all?

Great. How much money do you have to blow on outsourcing? Not every
person is in a position to do that.

The human element...It's why Johnny can't make money online no matter
how hard he tries.

Will he someday?

Maybe...but there are no guarantees...no magic button system...and no
amount of positive thinking is going to turn Johnny into a killer marketer
until he either improves his skills or finds a way to pay a pro to do it for
him.

22 minutes...not too bad.
#elementor #human #johnny #make #money #online
  • Profile picture of the author Eric Stanley
    3 minutes of my time spent reading this post -- not wasted. Cheers for this.
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291199].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Franck Silvestre
    This is one of the best posts I've read this year.

    Awesome copywriting skills. You said you are not a pro. Hmm.

    This post is the proof that you are very close if not a pro.

    Franck
    Signature
    Former Body Guard, Now REAL Traffic & List Building Coach
    >> HOT WSO: Six Figure Solo Sellers <<

    Winson Yeung said: "...Definitively A++ recommended WSO"
    Kevin Riley said: "Franck, glad to see you bringing out MORE and MORE GREAT stuff"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291216].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by aboutalhah View Post

      This is one of the best posts I've read this year.

      Awesome copywriting skills. You said you are not a pro. Hmm.

      This post is the proof that you are very close if not a pro.

      Franck
      It's easy to write the truth. Copywriting is half truths, hype and in some
      cases, flat out lies. That's why I am not a great copywriter because I can't
      keep myself from putting in a line on my sales page that reads something
      like...

      "There is work involved."

      People don't want to hear that.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291222].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Franck Silvestre
        Good that you told that...

        I was thinking about my latest wso for example: I named the product: "The 6 Day Cash Machine Method"... but, when I think about it, some people (expecially newbies) may interpret this as they can earn money in 6 days from now. Some of them won't, and it's not the purpose of the product. The goal is just to give a blueprint that work. I'm not claiming that they will be able to do like I'm doing.

        What do you think about this title? Is it misleading people or it's just me?

        As for halth truth, I think the two Gary (Halbert & Bencievenga) and Clayton have pretty close to 100% truth copies.

        Franck.

        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        It's easy to write the truth. Copywriting is half truths, hype and in some
        cases, flat out lies. That's why I am not a great copywriter because I can't
        keep myself from putting in a line on my sales page that reads something
        like...

        "There is work involved."

        People don't want to hear that.
        Signature
        Former Body Guard, Now REAL Traffic & List Building Coach
        >> HOT WSO: Six Figure Solo Sellers <<

        Winson Yeung said: "...Definitively A++ recommended WSO"
        Kevin Riley said: "Franck, glad to see you bringing out MORE and MORE GREAT stuff"
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291258].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author adamv
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        It's easy to write the truth. Copywriting is half truths, hype and in some
        cases, flat out lies. That's why I am not a great copywriter because I can't
        keep myself from putting in a line on my sales page that reads something
        like...

        "There is work involved."

        People don't want to hear that.
        I think you are probably a better copywriter than you give yourself credit for. Most copy is full of hype and half truths but I sure do appreciate an honest pitch.

        I would imagine that putting in a line like "There is work involved" may possibly even cut down on refunds, although I have no evidence one way or the other.

        If I buy a product from a sales letter full of hype and half truths and the product falls way short, the seller gets put on my do not buy list. You may not have success recruiting an army of affiliates with your copywriting but you probably have a bunch of loyal customers that will buy multiple products from you.
        Signature

        Get a professional voice over for your next audio or video project at an affordable price -- I will record 150 words of text for just $5.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291337].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
      The reality of 60+ hour weeks with little or no return at first, is the reason most "Johnny's", and "Janie's" will never make money online.

      The reality of IM as being real work is why 90% will fail.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291227].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author JamesFraze
        I like the insight, but I refuse to believe that if you put in 60 hours of work (and are doing it right), that you won't make a few bucks. I dont' expect $300 a week at first. Though I'm sure that's entirely possible with either luck or skill.

        Your simple plan, sounds solid - though would you have to spend money on each product to really give it a free review? is there no other way? That limits it to products that I actually have a need for before I buy it lol.

        Again, thank you for the insight. Your post provides direction, and keeps me aware of the human element in my own mistakes.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291248].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by JamesFraze View Post

          I like the insight, but I refuse to believe that if you put in 60 hours of work (and are doing it right), that you won't make a few bucks. I dont' expect $300 a week at first. Though I'm sure that's entirely possible with either luck or skill.

          Your simple plan, sounds solid - though would you have to spend money on each product to really give it a free review? is there no other way? That limits it to products that I actually have a need for before I buy it lol.

          Again, thank you for the insight. Your post provides direction, and keeps me aware of the human element in my own mistakes.
          James, you're missing the point.

          Spend 60 hours a week with a toothbrush tapping it into a stone wall
          and try to put a hole in the wall. It will never happen.

          Without the right tools (which in the case of my OP is your skill level)
          the only chance you have to be successful is to have somebody come
          over to your house with a sledgehammer and put that hole in the wall
          for you.

          It doesn't matter how hard you work at something if you don't have the
          skills and/or training.

          Can you develop them? Sure, but it's unlikely that it's going to happen
          right away. It could take weeks or even months, as it did with me.

          I made $28 in my first 5 months. I didn't have the skills yet. I had to
          develop them.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291263].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author JamesFraze
            Thank you, I do respect your insight. I hope my reply comes across like that.

            I am also understanding what you mean by skill level. I have partial skills - SEO but not SEM for example. HTML but not Copywriting.

            I follow.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291288].message }}
          • Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            James, you're missing the point.

            Spend 60 hours a week with a toothbrush tapping it into a stone wall
            and try to put a hole in the wall. It will never happen.

            Without the right tools (which in the case of my OP is your skill level)
            the only chance you have to be successful is to have somebody come
            over to your house with a sledgehammer and put that hole in the wall
            for you.

            It doesn't matter how hard you work at something if you don't have the
            skills and/or training.

            Can you develop them? Sure, but it's unlikely that it's going to happen
            right away. It could take weeks or even months, as it did with me.

            I made $28 in my first 5 months. I didn't have the skills yet. I had to
            develop them.
            The fact that you made $28 in 5 months is very disheartening. I bought some of your WSO's and hopefully they will help me make more than that.


            ...now I question my abilities as a newbie.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291399].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by shkad14 View Post

              The fact that you made $28 in 5 months is very disheartening. I bought some of your WSO's and hopefully they will help me make more than that.


              ...now I question my abilities as a newbie.
              I made $28 in 5 months for many reasons. Lack of skills was part of it. I also
              had no direction, no training, no idea what I was doing.

              All of it comes down to the human element.

              Your ability to learn
              Your ability to take what you learned and use it
              Your ability to analyze results and adapt to changes

              I could go on and on. Point is, a machine can't run a successful business
              unless that machine is programmed with every bit of knowledge that
              exists in regard to running a business.

              Yes, we've made great progress with computers that play chess, but
              chess is a mathematical game. Certain moves and combinations of moves
              will always bring the same results.

              With business, I don't know a machine that can create a pay per click ad
              that is guaranteed to make sales.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291414].message }}
              • What product, blog, or whatever, changed your fortune? Plus, what made you stay in with such poor results?

                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                I made $28 in 5 months for many reasons. Lack of skills was part of it. I also
                had no direction, no training, no idea what I was doing.

                All of it comes down to the human element.

                Your ability to learn
                Your ability to take what you learned and use it
                Your ability to analyze results and adapt to changes

                I could go on and on. Point is, a machine can't run a successful business
                unless that machine is programmed with every bit of knowledge that
                exists in regard to running a business.

                Yes, we've made great progress with computers that play chess, but
                chess is a mathematical game. Certain moves and combinations of moves
                will always bring the same results.

                With business, I don't know a machine that can create a pay per click ad
                that is guaranteed to make sales.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291431].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by shkad14 View Post

                  What product, blog, or whatever, changed your fortune? Plus, what made you stay in with such poor results?
                  This is not a question that is simple to answer in a forum post as it's just
                  too involved.

                  But what made me stick with it is that I had no choice. I was out of work
                  and was close to being homeless. I had to make this work. So I kept at it.

                  Sometimes desperation is an incredible motivator.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291444].message }}
                  • Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                    This is not a question that is simple to answer in a forum post as it's just
                    too involved.

                    But what made me stick with it is that I had no choice. I was out of work
                    and was close to being homeless. I had to make this work. So I kept at it.

                    Sometimes desperation is an incredible motivator.
                    I feel like I am hijacking this thread. I need to overcome bgetting down on myself before I start. I am so afraid of failure, that it stops me from going in 100%. Wish I could tap into what you tapped into
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291466].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author phoenix212
                      Originally Posted by shkad14 View Post

                      I feel like I am hijacking this thread. I need to overcome bgetting down on myself before I start. I am so afraid of failure, that it stops me from going in 100%. Wish I could tap into what you tapped into
                      Fear of failure is a HUGE thing that stops people...my only question to you is what scres you more: Failing, or not achieving anything when you die?

                      Everyone fails before they succeed.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291483].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
              Originally Posted by shkad14 View Post

              ...now I question my abilities as a newbie.
              Steven is right when he says it takes work and time. If you are new to the business world and maybe even the Internet. Accept that you need to put in months to get the know how and things right. Accept that and you are on to a damn good start.

              Everything that involves creating something out of "thin air" takes time. Money is one of them.

              Educate yourself and then go out there and do it.

              Are you going to give up just because it was as easy as pressing a button. You either put in the time here and the sky is the limit. Or you crawl back to your office chair and work for the boss, telling yourself that "it didnt work" or it was "too much effort".

              Goodluck
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291461].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Phil Weslow
    I'm glad that you put that line in... "there is work involved". It might cost you money to do it that way, but that doesn't mean your doing the wrong thing.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291284].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Nato Guajardo
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    Well, here's the news flash. Not everybody can write a good ad. Worse
    than that...not everybody can learn to write a good ad.
    First of all great post but i have to disagree with this statement. I believe anyone can learn to write good and even great copy. It's a skill that can be learned.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291287].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Nato Guajardo View Post

      First of all great post but i have to disagree with this statement. I believe anyone can learn to write good and even great copy. It's a skill that can be learned.
      Nate, tell that to my wife's friend's son who is 17 years old with the
      mentality of a 5 year old. He is never going to be able to do the things
      that many people take for granted.

      And yes, that is an extreme case, but there are many shades of skill
      and the ability to learn between the genius and the mentally handicapped.

      You can believe anything you like, but it doesn't change the reality that
      some people don't have the capacity to become proficient at something.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291296].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Wakunahum
        This is probably why many feel there are missing pieces or one last secret cause you literally follow step by step and sometimes don't see the same results.

        Good post.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291311].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Nato Guajardo
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Nate, tell that to my wife's friend's son who is 17 years old with the
        mentality of a 5 year old. He is never going to be able to do the things
        that many people take for granted.

        And yes, that is an extreme case, but there are many shades of skill
        and the ability to learn between the genius and the mentally handicapped.

        You can believe anything you like, but it doesn't change the reality that
        some people don't have the capacity to become proficient at something.
        Well if thats the case then this person would not be able to do your simplest business model.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291477].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jdmitchell
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


    The human element. You can't escape it. And because of that, you can't
    guarantee that any system, no matter how simple, is going to work for
    somebody.

    And the lower the intelligence of the person, the harder any system
    becomes.
    This is very wise, and something I have believed in my gut from the start, but have never heard it verbalized before.

    This is what makes it all so unpredictable. Personally, I know that I have the "knowing"...I see above the fold. Problem is that almost everyone else thinks they do too...But they don't. It is like standing on a rooftop. Some sort of awareness, or acuity. I can't explain it, maybe you can?

    Thanks Steven,

    JD
    Signature

    It Does

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291318].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Sylvia Meier
    Steven, another excellent post.

    And I agree wholeheartedly that there are always going to be SOME things a person cannot wrap their mind around. Whether it just doesn't click for them, or they have an inability to learn it because of a disability, there will always be things not everyone can learn.

    Everyone has their own skill levels and some have the ability to learn and expand on them, but to say everyone can is just not true. It's a sad reality but it is also a truth in many peoples lives. Very wise words Steven.

    Sylvia
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291348].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
      Originally Posted by Sylvia Rolfe View Post

      Steven, another excellent post.

      And I agree wholeheartedly that there are always going to be SOME things a person cannot wrap their mind around. Whether it just doesn't click for them, or they have an inability to learn it because of a disability, there will always be things not everyone can learn.

      Everyone has their own skill levels and some have the ability to learn and expand on them, but to say everyone can is just not true. It's a sad reality but it is also a truth in many peoples lives. Very wise words Steven.

      Sylvia
      Everyone can learn how to sell on the Internet. If they just dont give up!

      You most give it a try, perfect, read & study... and there is no friggin way you will not make money online or offline. Unless you sit on your ass waiting for it to pour down from the sky. And that's a whole different story.

      I think we've have this debate ones before. But there is always exceptions of course in any scenario. The point is, this is not quantum psychics.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291421].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Sylvia Meier
        Originally Posted by Magic Johnson View Post

        Everyone can learn how to sell on the Internet. If they just dont give up!

        You most give it a try, perfect, read & study... and there is no friggin way you will not make money online or offline. Unless you sit on your ass waiting for it to pour down from the sky. And that's a whole different story.

        I think we've have this debate ones before. But there is always exceptions of course in any scenario. The point is, this is not quantum psychics.
        I'm sorry but I don't agree on this point. Everyone has their own skills like Steven said, but not everyone can do everything. For example, my one son is autistic and has an almost photographic memory, but has NO fine motor skills and many other issues and even though he has worked with an OP for years shows no signs of improvement, he will not be able to sell on the internet, no matter how hard he works or tries. It is not something that everyone can do.

        Besides that human elements alter many factors of even the most well laid plans and some will succeed and others will fail, its a fact of life.
        Signature
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291464].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
          Originally Posted by Sylvia Rolfe View Post

          I'm sorry but I don't agree on this point. Everyone has their own skills like Steven said, but not everyone can do everything. For example, my one son is autistic and has an almost photographic memory, but has NO fine motor skills and many other issues and even though he has worked with an OP for years shows no signs of improvement, he will not be able to sell on the internet, no matter how hard he works or tries. It is not something that everyone can do.

          Besides that human elements alter many factors of even the most well laid plans and some will succeed and others will fail, its a fact of life.
          I think it's quite obvious we cant do all things, right. Sorry to hear about your son having those skills and problems.

          Here is my view:
          What I'm speaking of is not as much "walking on the moon" as it is being part of an astrounat group going to create a moon landing. Most will not go out there, others will still be on earth taking rapports from space, those who walk are best fit for it and sharpest for it.

          When the mantra is "possible to make money online" then I assume we are speaking of people showng 'some kind of intrest and progress towards learning making money online.

          Not someone who is 99 years old living in a trailer in the desert.

          Another way to put it is is it "possible to make a backflip" or take a shower.

          I think the big question here is: is the glas half empty or half full.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291716].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Magic Johnson View Post

            I think it's quite obvious we cant do all things, right. What I'm speaking of is not as much "walking on the moon" as it is being part of an astrounat group going to create a moon landing. Most will not go out there, others will still be on earth taking rapports from space, those who walk are best fit for it and sharpest for it.

            When the mantra is "possible to make money online" then I assume we are speaking of people showng 'some kind of intrest and progress towards learning making money online.

            Not someone who is 99 years old living in a trailer in the desert.

            Another way to put it is is it "possible to make a backflip" or take a shower.

            I think the big question here is: is the glas half empty or half full.


            So basically what you're saying is, the desire is enough if it's strong
            enough.

            Well, there again is the human element. It's easy to say, "Yeah, I really
            want this to work" but how many people really have the intestinal
            fortitude to go out and make it happen.

            Even though I have become successful as a marketer, I have given up
            on other things simply because it was too hard for me and the desire to
            overcome the obstacles wasn't there.

            For example, I tried for over 25 years to make it as a song writer, from
            age 20 to 45, just before I got into Internet marketing. I never made it.
            Finally, after 25 years, I just gave up trying to get a song recorded. It
            just wasn't worth it anymore.

            Now, I just do it for fun, but...if you heard my songs, know what you'd
            say to me?

            "Steve, I'm sorry but your songs just aren't that good, at least not good
            enough to go up against the best in the business."

            And you know what? You'd be right. I'm sorry it took me 25 years to
            figure that out.

            But...I'm not sorry I wrote all the songs (over 700) that I did because it
            was fun. I enjoyed it more than anything I have ever done in my life, and
            I still do.

            But I'm not foolish enough to think that I can make a living with my music.

            And that's my point. Some of us are just never going to be good enough
            at something no matter how hard we try simply because we don't have
            the talent.

            Now, you want to say that writing a song and writing a PPC ad are two
            different things? Maybe, but they both take a degree of talent.

            No doubt the argument of whether or not any person can do anything
            if they simply want it bad enough will go on forever.

            Do I know the answer for sure? No. But I'll still take my chances with the
            person who has the talent over the person who doesn't.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291743].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              But I'm not foolish enough to think that I can make a living with my music.

              And that's my point. Some of us are just never going to be good enough
              at something no matter how hard we try simply because we don't have
              the talent.
              I think if the desire is strong enough then yes, you will find and learn the fundamentals. What I really tried to say with my post is. You can manage to do something to some degree. You may not be the guy walking on the moon, but you may be part of the team. You said yourself that "you gave up". So the desire wasn't large enough. It's that simple. I mean if you can write 700 songs and play guitar(as I've seen you do). Then I have no doubt that you could start writing songs that sells and people listen to.

              If there is a market. Figure out what they like, model a song after your market and not after what you prefer. Do your research, and no doubt I believe you could make it.

              On the other hand if you think you can rule the house and become the next Elivs. Then you are in deep trouble. You need to innovate then and have friggin good team behind you like all MEGA stars in music.

              There is no one man band or luck involved. It's about sceintific fundamentals. Atleast in business and sales. Do you really think there is some invisible luck there?

              99% of the time there is away around the harddest problems. But if you believe you are going to be all things in all kinds of fields, then be prepared that you need a solid base on "what it takes" to reach your goals.

              It's not only about you then and being talented, it's about marketing and others too.

              If you just want to believe mostly in talents, then you have cut off yourself short before you even have started.

              This is how I see it.


              Btw, David Blaine just did 17 min inside a water tank on Oprah. How he did it? Training his lungs up for a few months, and then getting in to a mindless state. And having info and people around him about his heart rate + some other mental tricks up his sleeve.

              Now do you say he is gifted to have that big lungs? Or will you see beyond that, and the other facts that I pointed out. Dude aint that enormous either.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[292239].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author RonnyLua
                I totally concur with the human element factor being mentioned by Steve.

                I've been in IM for a few months, and have come to realise that while money can definitely be made online, not every proven successful method will work for you.

                You can make money of article marketing, PPC, opt-in lists, your own products, etc but chances are, you will not excel in all of them. What is a proven methodology for some, might not apply to you.

                The human element is too huge a variable and that usually is the difference between some making tons of money, while others just cannot cut it out, even though they are following the same method.

                What I've learned in my few months of IM can be summed up as the following:

                The ability to think, and differentiate.

                What many aspiring internet marketers always do is to look out for the get-rich-quick-scheme. They scour for proven forumlae online, copy it, and then pray that the money comes pouring in.

                Sure, that would work, but only if you are lucky and the human element variable is in your favour. But more often that not, you will find that your expectations will far exceed your results, and you will end up being a disappointed and forlorn guy.

                You can buy every product out there, follow the blueprint that the gurus have laid out for you, but if you do not attempt to interpret the math behind it, the reason why it works, mould and differentiate it, success would be hard to come by.

                Giving up is always the easiest route to take. The real problem lies when it becomes all too easy to give up, and you get used to it.

                Regards,
                Ronny
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[292403].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by Magic Johnson View Post

                I think if the desire is strong enough then yes, you will find and learn the fundamentals. What I really tried to say with my post is. You can manage to do something to some degree. You may not be the guy walking on the moon, but you may be part of the team. You said yourself that "you gave up". So the desire wasn't large enough. It's that simple. I mean if you can write 700 songs and play guitar(as I've seen you do). Then I have no doubt that you could start writing songs that sells and people listen to.

                If there is a market. Figure out what they like, model a song after your market and not after what you prefer. Do your research, and no doubt I believe you could make it.

                On the other hand if you think you can rule the house and become the next Elivs. Then you are in deep trouble. You need to innovate then and have friggin good team behind you like all MEGA stars in music.

                There is no one man band or luck involved. It's about sceintific fundamentals. Atleast in business and sales. Do you really think there is some invisible luck there?

                99% of the time there is away around the harddest problems. But if you believe you are going to be all things in all kinds of fields, then be prepared that you need a solid base on "what it takes" to reach your goals.

                It's not only about you then and being talented, it's about marketing and others too.

                If you just want to believe mostly in talents, then you have cut off yourself short before you even have started.

                This is how I see it.


                Btw, David Blaine just did 17 min inside a water tank on Oprah. How he did it? Training his lungs up for a few months, and then getting in to a mindless state. And having info and people around him about his heart rate + some other mental tricks up his sleeve.

                Now do you say he is gifted to have that big lungs? Or will you see beyond that, and the other facts that I pointed out. Dude aint that enormous either.

                Well, if you call giving up after 25 years giving up, fine. Oh, and I have
                had classical training, know how to technically construct songs and know
                my stuff.

                It's not luck but it is something that goes beyond the X's and O's. Call it
                talent, call it that certain something, call it an intangible or whatever
                you want. After 25 years, I didn't have it and wasn't going to waste
                another 25 years of my life trying to find it.

                I think it's great that you have such an amazing attitude that you believe
                anybody can do anything that they want to and do it well enough to be
                successful at it
                .

                Hang onto that because it's priceless.

                But I don't believe in fairy tales.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[292841].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                  Well, if you call giving up after 25 years giving up, fine. Oh, and I have
                  had classical training, know how to technically construct songs and know
                  my stuff.

                  It's not luck but it is something that goes beyond the X's and O's. Call it
                  talent, call it that certain something, call it an intangible or whatever
                  you want. After 25 years, I didn't have it and wasn't going to waste
                  another 25 years of my life trying to find it.

                  I think it's great that you have such an amazing attitude that you believe
                  anybody can do anything that they want to and do it well enough to be
                  successful at it
                  .

                  Hang onto that because it's priceless.

                  But I don't believe in fairy tales.
                  What do you believe in then Steven. What's reality to you?

                  Man say it's something that didn't take u to the high roads of success in music business. If you just step back for a minute, then man believe that you can see that there is nothing working against man. Nothing missing in Man as a PERSON. The only one thing missing is getting the science in-printed in man. Coming from the outside.

                  The what you get-in is what you get out.

                  Simple put you didn't have the knowledge and fundamentals at the time, on how to promote yourself well enough, or that your music wasn't up to date or matched a market.

                  It's that simple. Now you can muddle about -no-no's it's that X's and Z's or you can stop believing in ghost stories and pick up some good books on science and evolution.

                  I've been there done that by the way. Doubting reality.

                  When it comes to doing something with your mind, then everyone can be successful, if they have the right fundamentals and information in hand. And that requires a well educated and open minded teacher sometimes.

                  How hard is it to get to a place when you have a map in hand? And when you have a GPS system? Or following someone else?

                  Now going to a place you never been to without a map or GPS system all by yourself??

                  I hope I make clear case examples for the average
                  man and woman to understand me.

                  Because I think that's why many people in science and outsinders don't go hand in hand. Scientists speak their inside language, striving for knowledge and improvments, and normal deads think they are compliacted and boring people just thinking about themself and their likeminded.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[300662].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                    Originally Posted by Magic Johnson View Post

                    What do you believe in then Steven. What's reality to you?

                    Man say it's something that didn't take u to the high roads of success in music business. If you just step back for a minute, then man believe that you can see that there is nothing working against man. Nothing missing in Man as a PERSON. The only one thing missing is getting the science in-printed in you.

                    The what you get-in is what you get out.

                    Simple put you didn't have the knowledge and fundamentals at the time, on how to promote yourself well enough, or that your music wasn't up to date or matched a market.

                    It's that simple. Now you can muddle about -no-no's it's that X's and Z's or you can stop believing in ghost stories and pick up some good books on science and evolution.

                    I've been there done that by the way. Doubting reality.

                    When it comes to doing something with your mind, then everyone can be successful, if they have the right fundamentals and information in hand. And that requires a well educated and open minded teacher sometimes.

                    How hard is it to get to a place when you have a map in hand? And when you have a GPS system? Or following someone else?

                    Now going to a place you never been to without a map or GPS system all by yourself??

                    I hope I make clear case examples for the average
                    man and woman to understand me.

                    Because I think that's why many people in science and outsinders don't go hand in hand. Scientists speak their inside language, striving for knowledge and improvments, and normal deads think they are compliacted and boring people just thinking about themself and their likeminded.

                    I honestly have no idea what you're talking about but you do use a lot
                    of ifs in this post.

                    Sure, if I had the right training, sure if I knew what was commercial, sure
                    if...but I didn't.

                    And there's no magic formula for learning how to write a song that you
                    can walk into a publisher's office with, have him go "wow" and end up
                    having Joe Blow record your music and make you a millionaire.

                    If it was that easy, everybody would be doing it. But the truth is, some
                    people don't have the talent and no wanting, wishing, begging, hoping
                    pleading or even working, is going to give them that talent.

                    You seem to believe that anybody can be successful at any thing just
                    because they want it. I don't. I believe you have to have ability and some
                    ability can't be learned out of a book. If I wanted to be a center for the
                    New York Knicks, at 5 ft 8, there is no way in hell that was ever going to
                    happen, no matter how bad I wanted it or how hard I practiced. And I
                    could have spent my whole life trying for that and failing and ultimately
                    wasting my life on something that was never going to be.

                    Look, we are never going to agree on this so it's pointless for you to try
                    to convince me that I can someday write a Grammy Award winning song.
                    It's not going to happen. And no, it's not because I don't believe it will
                    happen because for 25 years I thought I was just as good as anybody
                    out there. It's because I have finally realized that I'm not and that I've
                    reached the limits of what I can do with my music. And that's having a
                    few friends say to me, "Hey, that wasn't bad."

                    No doubt you'll come back with more arguments for me and this will go
                    on and on. But we kicked this mule to death months ago and I really don't
                    want to go down this path again.

                    Let's just agree to disagree, okay?
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[300675].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Magic Johnson
                      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                      And there's no magic formula for learning how to write a song that you
                      can walk into a publisher's office with, have him go "wow" and end up
                      having Joe Blow record your music and make you a millionaire.
                      Sure there is no magical formula. That's what I tried to tell you. You put in the work and study, hire someone, get a mentor, whatever it takes. I agree.

                      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                      If it was that easy, everybody would be doing it. But the truth is, some
                      people don't have the talent and no wanting, wishing, begging, hoping
                      pleading or even working, is going to give them that talent.
                      It's as you believe Steven. I just don't want to see why to get so stuck with talent. You realize that when you speak of "someone people" you automatically really speak about yourself.

                      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                      If I wanted to be a center for the
                      New York Knicks, at 5 ft 8, there is no way in hell that was ever going to
                      happen, no matter how bad I wanted it or how hard I practiced. And I
                      could have spent my whole life trying for that and failing and ultimately
                      wasting my life on something that was never going to be.
                      When it comes to doing something with your mind, then everyone can be successful, if they have the right fundamentals and information in hand. And that requires a well educated and open minded teacher sometimes.

                      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                      I honestly have no idea what you're talking about but you do use a lot
                      of ifs in this post.
                      You using if nots. And I think there is where we differ as you may know.

                      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                      And no, it's not because I don't believe it will
                      happen because for 25 years I thought I was just as good as anybody
                      out there.
                      Just dont be too hard on yourself. I've spent all my free time and teenage years (since I were 17) on the Internet trying to figure out the piehole. I Know I'll be worth every single minute of it if I can retire when I'm 45-50 if I want to.

                      Then I get those 7 years back. And take some. Make it a good 2009 Steven and you have nothing to ever regret. You are already doing better than most. I let you get the last words if you feel for it.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[300875].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author bobcath
    Steve

    Just to build on your point. Agree skills are a 'must have'. However skills are no good without the other human elements of motivation, focus and perseverance.

    Bobby
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291387].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by bobcath View Post

      Steve

      Just to build on your point. Agree skills are a 'must have'. However skills are no good without the other human elements of motivation, focus and perseverance.

      Bobby
      Bobby, I didn't even want to get into that area, but that just makes the
      puzzle that much harder to solve. Like I said, I wanted to keep the post
      short.

      Truth is, I could write a book on this subject.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291396].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Janet Sawyer
      Originally Posted by bobcath View Post

      Steve

      Just to build on your point. Agree skills are a 'must have'. However skills are no good without the other human elements of motivation, focus and perseverance.

      Bobby

      And, if the truth be known - The right contacts.

      "you can take a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead"

      Old confucious saying!

      Human intercourse is a must, no man is a mountain -

      Just my 2c (pennyworth!)
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291415].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author bobcath
    And, if the truth be known - The right contacts.

    "you can take a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead"

    Old confucious saying!

    Human intercourse is a must, no man is a mountain -

    Just my 2c (pennyworth!)

    Yes Janet
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291439].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jim Pearson
    Steven;

    Great Post...Your absolutely correct. There are some individuals due to their human circumstances who have no chance to succeed without expert intervention.

    Within the business to business world. I how found that if takes on average 10-12 business clients (who are looking to grow their business) to find the one who has the mindset and ability to really achieve significant growth.

    So, the beginner to business on the internet or anywhere else needs to find mentors who can guide them if they want to give themselves a chance for success.
    Signature
    To Your Success;
    Jim Pearson
    Co-founder of TheAdvisoryGym.com
    Get Your Free Copy of "How To Market Yourself As The Expert You Are."
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[291890].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    Well, here's the news flash. Not everybody can write a good ad. Worse
    than that...not everybody can learn to write a good ad.
    Being Christmas season...
    ... I hear...
    ... that for everyone who sincerely believes...
    ... a limitation that you offer to them...
    ... a bell rings.
    Signature

    We have a system that increasingly taxes work and subsidizes nonwork.
    ~ Milton Friedman

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[292418].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Joel Gray
    Steven,

    Dude you really should charge for this stuff, that is a fantastic but simple outline. And the Human Element can actually be a benefit once you have become familiar with your buyers, then again sometimes not so much

    Thanks again,

    Joel
    Signature

    "Punish The Deed, Not The Breed"

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[292419].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jazzyjeff
    Well Steve,

    Now that you mention that list, I have a lot more to learn in internet marketing. One thing that we all can work on is the ability to adapt, make changes on the fly and be innovative. All this to stay one step ahead of the crowd.

    Jeff
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[292423].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author nikhilg
    Great post Steve,

    Thanks for the simple plan of action. I am thinking of trying out Chris Rempel's Conduit method and your plan of action fits well with that.

    It is nice to receive some reassurance that I am on the right path.

    regards

    Nikhil
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[292469].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Kirk Paulhamus
    Thanks Steve I agree with with most of what you had to say. With one addition and that would be if you are not very techie or a writer, you had better be good at BS.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[300676].message }}

Trending Topics