Size Matters - But Not So Much With Lists

by Zeus66
11 replies
Yeah, the title might get this thread shut down, but that's ok. Totally worth it.

I actually have a point here, trust me. It's about list size. We're way too obsessed with it. Someone I coach was asking me today what I think about using a lot of ad swaps to build their list size. I have this instinctive knee-jerk reaction to the idea of ad swapping and buying solo ads, but I hadn't really thought it through until our discussion.

What I don't like is the incestuous nature of ad swapping. Let's say you have a list of 2000 and you arrange a swap with someone in the same niche with 2000 members. You do your swap and now you both have 2500 on your lists. Lovely, right? Mission accomplished, right?

Not so fast there, cowboy! What it really means is that 500 of your cherished subscribers are now going to get regular emails from the other guy. And 500 of his are going to get your regular emails. Did either of you really win? I mean, ok sure, some of the
"new" people on your list will probably buy from you. And ditto those from your list now on the other guy's.

But... uh oh, therein lies the problem, right? Did you really gain anything? Maybe, but maybe not. It could be that you'll make an extra 5 sales per email from those new subscribers, but lose 5 because the other guy's offer took sales from you. You might even lose more than you gain in terms of sales. See what I mean?

The fallacy of ad swapping is the deceptiveness of size. A bigger list does not automatically mean more sales for you. You are trading some of your audience for some of theirs. The net effect might be nil... or even a loss for you. Depends on who is the better marketer and/or who has the better offers, right?

And it doesn't stop there. If you keep doing ad swaps within the same niche, you might end up with a shiny list of 10,000 or even more. Great for showing off at the next IM seminar. Maybe not so great for your bottom line.

Look, if you have a large list built heavily from ad swaps and you're making good money, MORE POWER TO YA! I mean it. I'm not saying don't do it. All I'm saying here is don't think that size is necessarily the end-all and be-all of list marketing.

I've talked to enough fellow list marketers to know that many smaller lists beat the snot out of some of those mega-lists in terms of conversion rates and multiple repeat buyers.

It's not that you can jealously guard your list members. They're free to join as many other lists as they want. Being Zeus, I have godly powers and even I'm powerless to prevent it, so you puny mortals should not even attempt it.

What I'm saying is, don't help push them onto other lists if you can help it. Limit that "damage." The more captive your audience, the less size matters.

John
#chicks #honest #lists #matters #size
  • Profile picture of the author Archeon
    I think you make a very valid point.

    A lot of the time people want a big list to give them leverage over other people in order to facilitate more adswaps...this will ultimately become circular.

    I guess it really depends on the strategy you employ with your list, in regards to are you trying to drip feed them sales of different products, or do you need a big list to send out a big home made product to and are just playing a percentage game. I can certainly see the advantage in having a big list for the latter.

    Regards,

    Si
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    Simon Friling
    SEO Consultant

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  • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
    Good points ,


    I admit i did try list swapping for about a week then i realised i was trading my well honed responsive list for people who had been marketed to constantly on a daily basis for weeks if not months.... big mistake.

    I've seen lists of 500 outsell adswapped lists of 20,000 in JV contests.

    Size really doesn't matter



    Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

    Yeah, the title might get this thread shut down, but that's ok. Totally worth it.

    I actually have a point here, trust me. It's about list size. We're way too obsessed with it. Someone I coach was asking me today what I think about using a lot of ad swaps to build their list size. I have this instinctive knee-jerk reaction to the idea of ad swapping and buying solo ads, but I hadn't really thought it through until our discussion.

    What I don't like is the incestuous nature of ad swapping. Let's say you have a list of 2000 and you arrange a swap with someone in the same niche with 2000 members. You do your swap and now you both have 2500 on your lists. Lovely, right? Mission accomplished, right?

    Not so fast there, cowboy! What it really means is that 500 of your cherished subscribers are now going to get regular emails from the other guy. And 500 of his are going to get your regular emails. Did either of you really win? I mean, ok sure, some of the
    "new" people on your list will probably buy from you. And ditto those from your list now on the other guy's.

    But... uh oh, therein lies the problem, right? Did you really gain anything? Maybe, but maybe not. It could be that you'll make an extra 5 sales per email from those new subscribers, but lose 5 because the other guy's offer took sales from you. You might even lose more than you gain in terms of sales. See what I mean?

    The fallacy of ad swapping is the deceptiveness of size. A bigger list does not automatically mean more sales for you. You are trading some of your audience for some of theirs. The net effect might be nil... or even a loss for you. Depends on who is the better marketer and/or who has the better offers, right?

    And it doesn't stop there. If you keep doing ad swaps within the same niche, you might end up with a shiny list of 10,000 or even more. Great for showing off at the next IM seminar. Maybe not so great for your bottom line.

    Look, if you have a large list built heavily from ad swaps and you're making good money, MORE POWER TO YA! I mean it. I'm not saying don't do it. All I'm saying here is don't think that size is necessarily the end-all and be-all of list marketing.

    I've talked to enough fellow list marketers to know that many smaller lists beat the snot out of some of those mega-lists in terms of conversion rates and multiple repeat buyers.

    It's not that you can jealously guard your list members. They're free to join as many other lists as they want. Being Zeus, I have godly powers and even I'm powerless to prevent it, so you puny mortals should not even attempt it.

    What I'm saying is, don't help push them onto other lists if you can help it. Limit that "damage." The more captive your audience, the less size matters.

    John
    Signature


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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Yeah, I have wrestled with this.

    I would never ad swap my buyers list, but I have been contemplated a free list, just so that I can take advantage of ad swaps.

    Honestly, I am sitting on the fence with the free list. I just need zeus to convince me to jump.
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    Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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    • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      Yeah, I have wrestled with this.

      I would never ad swap my buyers list, but I have been contemplated a free list, just so that I can take advantage of ad swaps.

      Honestly, I am sitting on the fence with the free list. I just need zeus to convince me to jump.


      If the list is anyway good don't It's really not worth it. Even non buyers can be a good list if they recommend their friends..

      (can't believe i am giving advice to you!! I assume this is one of your serious posts and i haven't missed a hidden message )
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      The danger is even more pronounced if you're the type that sends boilerplate JV emails. You don't know if you'll be the first or fifteenth to twist your buddy, Joe Gooroo's arm for that snazzy pre-launch discount...

      Borrowing Dan Kennedy's analogy of building a fence around your herd, one reason you build the fence is to keep the predators out. My gut tells me that doing a lot of ad swaps is like opening the gates and inviting the coyotes in...
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        I spend a lot of money, time and effort getting people to subscribe to my lists, and you would never get me to send them over to some ad-swapping JV yahoo.
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  • Profile picture of the author Big Al
    - John ... I like tofu and your point. Good old Dan K.

    I was kinda getting seduced by the prospect of building a larger list through adswaps but held back and with hindsight I'm quite glad.

    My gmail account for subscribing to every list out there ... well it's got a fair few cobwebs on it and well over 20K emails I'm never going to read. Mainly because they're was no point in reading them.

    They were either a pure pitch or an adswap.

    Maybe things have changed - I don't know because I only have a select few marketers hitting my inbox, the ones that make me feel like I know, like, trust and can learn from the.

    Slowly but surely I'm trying to change my email style and become more like the guys ... I like (with my own personality of course) which takes time.

    It's like learning how to write emails for the first time (because before I really wan't writing emails - I was just writing something for the sake of it, adding a link and hitting send).
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    So much of list success comes down to how much your subscribers like you and trust you. Really pretty simple human dynamics. If you make it really obvious that you just want money money money from them, it'll turn them off. Or if you do stupid stuff like send boilerplate affiliate emails provided by the vendor without significant changes. That's just stupid and will ruin your reputation.

    Small lists kick big lists around the schoolyard when the small list owner has taken the time to connect with his subscribers on that human level. Simple as that. I'd put my conversion % up against just about anyone's and I bet I'd hold my own. Just sayin'.
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    • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
      Nice to see someone follow my line of thinking when it comes to lists

      I think ad swaps have their place though, when you've got a prospect list that has run its course and you've moved the buyers off, it may be time to do some ad swaps.

      The remaining people on the prospect list may never buy from you, but will buy from other people.

      And likewise on the return from whomever you're doing a deal with.
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      'If you hear a voice within you say "you cannot paint," then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.' Vincent Van Gogh.
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        @ oneplusone

        Good idea! Usually when a prospect has run its course I usually just dump them. But doing ad swaps with all my dead beats, now that's pure gold!
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  • Profile picture of the author Net Line
    I really appreciate the insight here. I have spent a lot of time working on SEO for clients with brick and mortar stores, and letting the list building slide to those more angled toward product development or affiliate marketing. But, now I see the value of having a list and so the process of building one begins.

    I am glad to hear that ad swaps may not be all they are cracked up to be. I've been encouraged to participate in those swaps, gift exchanges, safe lists, and the like to begin to create a list. Others, they say, have done really well using that technique.

    For me, a site builder and SEO hound, the thought of not driving traffic organically and not building a list naturally just feels funny; not bad, just funny.

    More direction in this universe would be appreciated.
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