Is this ethical?! This guy is paying his outsources <$2/HOUR!!!

by doop
287 replies
I just received an e-mail from a marketer..... check out the video for yourself here:

Replace Myself | HomePage

The guy is paying workers in the Philippines about $1-$2 PER HOUR to create his "Ultimate IM Lifestyle".

Now I'm all for outsourcing - in fact i wouldn't be nearly as successful online if it wasn't for outsourcing.

BUT WE HAVE TO DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE....

Now my question is - Is this crossing the line of ethical employment?!

Is he "exploiting" these people....?
#<$2 or hour #ethical #guy #outsources #paying
  • Profile picture of the author AndyCamden
    I personally think is unethical. Some will think differently. The fact of the matter is that people will work for that much.
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    • Profile picture of the author ofir
      Banned
      Originally Posted by AndyCamden View Post

      I personally think is unethical. Some will think differently. The fact of the matter is that people will work for that much.

      I Agree with Andy.
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    • Profile picture of the author dondada1
      Originally Posted by AndyCamden View Post

      I personally think is unethical. Some will think differently. The fact of the matter is that people will work for that much.

      I have been to china four time in my life matter a fact I started a company out there four years ago. $2 and hour USD is good for them if you paid them $2 in there own money that ripping them off and that is unethical
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      • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
        well, I feel this has to be said. Who are we to judge? I mean really, why don't people just mind their own business? You know we'd have way less wars that way.:rolleyes:

        Here's I feel about outsourcing, this is just my opinion, though: there are enough locally unemployed young geniuses who would gladly work at home for minimum wage, because I believe there are enough clients out there who will pay my hourly fee so that I would be able to pay someone to assist me here. I have nothing against helping other countries. Too often though, those closest to us are neglected in the process.

        In the end, "to each his own"...
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  • Profile picture of the author Clyde Dennis
    Sir rightly or wrongly, ethical or not there will always be someone willing to do for $2.00 what you may not even consider doing for less than $200.00, or even $2000.00.

    Those who accept the $2.00 rate are just as much a free lancer as the person that holds out for the $2000.00 jobs.

    This is rightly or wrongly, ethically or not the essence of how a free market operates.
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    • Profile picture of the author Adeel_Chowdhry
      Originally Posted by Clyde Dennis View Post

      Sir rightly or wrongly, ethical or not there will always be someone willing to do for $2.00 what you may not even consider doing for less than $200.00, or even $2000.00.

      Those who accept the $2.00 rate are just as much a free lancer as the person that holds out for the $2000.00 jobs.

      This is rightly or wrongly, ethically or not the essence of how a free market operates.
      Agree totally.

      Adeel
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  • Profile picture of the author schabotte
    If people are willing to do the work for a certain price of their own free will, why would it be unethical? The marketer did nothing to force them to take the work. And I don't know the typical wage in the Philippines but that could represent a good hourly wage over there.
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  • Profile picture of the author lakshaybehl
    I don't know about Phillipines... But here in India you could get someone for well under $2/hour working on their computer for you... And they would be considered to be middle class people... not poor.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kirk Ward
      Originally Posted by lakshaybehl View Post

      I don't know about Phillipines... But here in India you could get someone for well under $2/hour working on their computer for you... And they would be considered to be middle class people... not poor.
      What services do you offer?
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  • Profile picture of the author lakshaybehl
    Just so you know, I do outsource at those rates...

    And its not just me because my mom had a government job.. She is a gazzetted officer, and still she was paid just $2/hour considering she had a 8:30-6:30 job (10 hours and was paid $20/day).

    -Lakshay
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Dominic
    ... and minimum wage is less than $4 USD per day in Mexico (Just south of United States where federal minimum wage is $6.55 per hour)!

    I believe Phillippines is about $5 USD per day.

    Even though this might seem like a small amount it might mean a lot to those that are receiving it, especially if it's a considerable amount over the minimum wage of that country.

    It may be morally wrong to some but it's a business choice...
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    • Profile picture of the author Ron Douglas
      Originally Posted by Michael Dominic View Post

      ... and minimum wage is less than $4 USD per day in Mexico (Just south of United States where federal minimum wage is $6.55 per hour)!

      I believe Phillippines is about $5 USD per day.

      Even though this might seem like a small amount it might mean a lot to those that are receiving it, especially if it's a considerable amount over the minimum wage of that country.

      It may be morally wrong to some but it's a business choice...
      I think I may be getting exploited. I'm paying my VA from the Phillippines $4.40 per hour. But she's a quick learner and a good writer, so I'm not complaining.

      Pay rates are all relative. If people can earn a decent living and are happy making $2 per hour, I think providing them with work is ethical. It's not like outsourcing computer work is a sweat shop job.
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      • Profile picture of the author cscarpero
        Give me a break. If I hear one more complaint about how outsourcing is slavery, I'm going to scream!!

        I actually did listen to John's call and I hired some Filipinos on Odesk. The wages I pay were bid by them, not me. How is that slavery?

        Are they upset with me for what I pay? Hardly! They are usually emailing me daily to ask for more work.

        The fact of the matter is I was doing this myself before outsourcing and there is no way I could pay American wages for these tasks.
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    • Originally Posted by Michael Dominic View Post

      I believe Phillippines is about $5 USD per day.

      In Manila, minimum wage = $8.90/day (at $1 = Php45)... and in other big provincial cities = $8.40/day...

      ...these are hard labor and blue collar employees like carpenters, plumbers, construction workers, cooks, waiters, security guards, cops, firemen, auto mechanics, electrical technicians, etc.

      White collar jobs and others on the other hand pay $15/day minimum... these are entry-level teachers, phone customer support agents, phone tech support agents, email support agents, content writers, nurses, dentists, physicians, etc.

      Entry-level programmers, engineers, chemists, biologists, medical researchers, etc. = $20/day.

      Senior content writers, editors, programmers, tech support agents, trainors, customer support agents, marketing agents, graphics designers, Web developers, etc. = $30/day minimum.

      Senior engineers, chemists, biologists, teachers, surgeons, lawyers, etc. = $40/day minimum.

      "Minimum" for jobs other than hard labor and blue collar jobs mentioned above = They won't work below those rates.

      "Minimum" for hard labor and blue collar jobs = Employers are required to pay those rates or more per 8-hour work day.

      You can however easily do this here: hire a 20 to 30-year old Filipino with irrelevant work experience and knowledge worth 2 years at $10/8-hour day, train this person to use the computer and do your tasks, and provide on-the-job training and management, but this person won't be able to write effective English content for you though - it'll take this person 1 year of extensive training to have substantial English writing skills and at least 6 months of extensive training for effective English speaking skills, nevertheless = you can properly communicate in English with this person through text or voice chat since this person statistically has substantial English comprehension skills right from the start... also, Filipinos = no accent whatsoever, only in rare cases, mostly Filipinos in small provinces.

      I think: (1) initially paying your firm-trained and managed Filipino employees higher rates than standard local rates and (2) not focusing on training and managing them yourself are better options for businesspeople who aren't running manpower sourcing, recruitment, employee training, business management and consultancy services.

      Why?

      It allows you to focus on other things which can grow your businesses.

      If you constantly train them to do a task using these particular set of methods, also leaving you without time to focus on other areas of your businesses as mentioned above, then when they become proficient in those methods, the industry could've changed substantially for your method to no longer be as effective as before.

      If you focus on training them on your own while paying less, then they will leave you the moment they learn from you and find a different opportunity which pays higher rates.

      They will also leave you for better opportunities or constantly work on other projects from other businesspeople if you pay them standard local rates but without employee benefits, on-the-job training and management, a rewarding and competitive life-work balanced office environment with useful tools and resources which can improve their skills faster, have them work alongside their colleagues and seniors who they learn from and look up to, rewards and incentives as well as fast promotions for exceptional work, character and mindset formation sessions, personal and company goal developmental sessions, etc.

      Hope this helps.
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  • Profile picture of the author write-stuff
    I guess I could never understand the moral or ethical delimma with something like this. Someone has a service that he will sell for an agreed upon price. How is this immoral? Would he be better if you took the job elsewhere and paid him nothing?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike McBride
    Why do people get their panties in a bunch - and start throwing around terms like "ethical" - about stuff like this that has zero to do with them?

    One person is willing to pay x dollars to have a job done, and someone else - without threat or coercion - is willing to do said job for that price, so what's the problem?

    Or to paraphrase Tina Turner, "What's ethics got to do with it?"
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    • Profile picture of the author candoit2
      Any business owners job is to get your services at the lowest price they can. It is the job of the employee to get the best price they can for their services.

      If someone sells themselves short or accepts less than their worth that is not unethical because they are the ones who set their price.

      When you set your price for your product you are giving an estimate of what you think the market will accept, starting at the highest and working lower and the market tells you what the final price is.

      When hiring, your are giving an estimate of what their services are worth starting at the lowest point and working up higher. It is the market who tells you what the final wage is.

      Selling an ebook for $15000 is not unethical if you suggest a price and the market accepts.

      Hiring someone for a penny an hour is not unethical if the market accepts.

      You lower or raise your offers based on how the market responds.

      This is just how business works.

      Aaron
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  • Profile picture of the author aceriker
    I moved from the UK to come and work in India and I can tell you straight up that $2 an hour is plenty for people to live on here.

    We pay college freshers less than $1 an hour. Does that make us unethical? No, that's just what the cost of living is in India for someone fresh out of college - and we have no shortage of people wanting that job! Each week we hold group interviews of 10-15 freshers who are desperate to earn that kind of money.

    $2 an hour is actually more than most of my team get so don't tell them about this!

    To put it in to perspective, my lunch today cost me 50 cents and I'm putting on weight
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    • Profile picture of the author prodozoan
      Originally Posted by aceriker View Post


      $2 an hour is actually more than most of my team get so don't tell them about this!
      Dont worry.. it would make no difference even if they are told
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    • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
      Originally Posted by aceriker View Post

      I moved from the UK to come and work in India and I can tell you straight up that $2 an hour is plenty for people to live on here.

      We pay college freshers less than $1 an hour. Does that make us unethical? No, that's just what the cost of living is in India for someone fresh out of college - and we have no shortage of people wanting that job! Each week we hold group interviews of 10-15 freshers who are desperate to earn that kind of money.

      $2 an hour is actually more than most of my team get so don't tell them about this!
      In a free market economy, people have the freedom to accept any job that they want to do. If my living expenses weren't so high, I would not worry about accepting less money. I broke my back when I was a kid at an electrical supply house for $4/hr. and it was brutal. $2/hr. to sit at a computer is a good job in some parts of the world. After all, every single one of us with a JOB are paid peanuts when compared to how much money we create for the company WE work for. Are people with a JOB being exploited?

      TomG.
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      • Profile picture of the author sree94
        Originally Posted by tommygadget View Post

        In a free market economy, people have the freedom to accept any job that they want to do. If my living expenses weren't so high, I would not worry about accepting less money. I broke my back when I was a kid at an electrical supply house for $4/hr. and it was brutal. $2/hr. to sit at a computer is a good job in some parts of the world. After all, every single one of us with a JOB are paid peanuts when compared to how much money we create for the company WE work for. Are people with a JOB being exploited?

        TomG.

        I was thinking the exact same thing when I read this.

        I have no idea what the cost of living is there, but if the person you are paying is getting paid well for the standards of their country, what's the problem?
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
          It is very hard to draw the line as to the value of 2$ here.

          As I said, my neighbor was lucky finding a job as an IT - which I believe nets him about 18,000 pesos per month (360$ in US equivalent).

          A rule of thumb is that most things here are about 3 to 5 times cheaper than back in the states.

          So I guess it would be safe to say that a 2$ per hour would equal about 6$ to 8$
          per hour in the states, in a country where unemployment is the norm - without the need to ever leave home or commute, doing a relatively easy job (no physical work required) that doesn't require 12 hour long shifts or more (which is common here).

          Statistics here are somewhat unreliable, considering it is a 3rd world country and a great number of people here live in the province, without electricity and earning little more than 200$ per year ... but they don't need to, they work their own land and are mostly self-sustaining themselves and doing trade with other people from their community.

          Here in Makati, one of the largest international business districts, almost everything is "foreigner friendly", which make prices an cost of living skyrocket.
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          • Profile picture of the author chrisburton
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois View Post

            It is very hard to draw the line as to the value of 2$ here.

            As I said, my neighbor was lucky finding a job as an IT - which I believe nets him about 18,000 pesos per month (360$ in US equivalent).

            A rule of thumb is that most things here are about 3 to 5 times cheaper than back in the states.

            So I guess it would be safe to say that a 2$ per hour would equal about 6$ to 8$
            per hour in the states, in a country where unemployment is the norm - without the need to ever leave home or commute, doing a relatively easy job (no physical work required) that doesn't require 12 hour long shifts or more (which is common here).

            Statistics here are somewhat unreliable, considering it is a 3rd world country and a great number of people here live in the province, without electricity and earning little more than 200$ per year ... but they don't need to, they work their own land and are mostly self-sustaining themselves and doing trade with other people from their community.

            Here in Makati, one of the largest international business districts, almost everything is "foreigner friendly", which make prices an cost of living skyrocket.

            that makes sense
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    • Profile picture of the author Katherine Wheel
      Hi,

      That's a helpful message. You are helping the people who want to know what the cost of living is in other countries. To me that seems a good way to judge what to pay. In a 'free market' you can get people selling their time too cheap because they are desperate, and living below subsistence level. Many people want to avoid paying too low, and you have helped. Aceriker and Lakshay and others too.

      And yes, I agree with the person who says, you can always show your appreciation upon completion of a good job by giving your outsource freelance a bonus.
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  • Profile picture of the author ileneg
    I am NOT judging anyone, so don't go there, but I do have a somewhat rhetorical question up for discussion - are those US citizens who outsource overseas the same US citizens who get "peaved" when the US federal government does the same thing?

    Is it irony? Is it a personal moral dilemma? Either? Both?

    ilene
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  • Profile picture of the author Raymond Edeh
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    • Profile picture of the author tommygadget
      Originally Posted by Raymond Edeh View Post

      The truth is that it is morally wrong.
      It's a graphic example of exploitation and modern way of slavery...


      Kindest,
      Raymond
      This is a debate without end. If I was a student with a few hours to spend and I lived where the cost of living was very low, I would have no problem working for some spending money. I certainly would not consider it slavery. I would be glad for the experience and learn as much as I could.

      TomG.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike McBride
      Originally Posted by Raymond Edeh View Post

      The truth is that it is morally wrong.
      It's a graphic example of exploitation and modern way of slavery...


      Kindest,
      Raymond
      Oh man, you just don't know when to quit, do you?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Coverdale
      Originally Posted by Raymond Edeh View Post

      The truth is that it is morally wrong.
      It's a graphic example of exploitation and modern way of slavery...


      Kindest,
      Raymond
      Sorry, but thats bulls##t.

      How the hell is it slavery? These people accept jobs that allow them a life style which is considered middle class in their country. They may not be making $4000 a month like you can in Australia but I bet they don't have to pay $400 a week rent to get a decent house for a family either. It's all relative to the countries economy and cost of living.

      Slavery is forced work, they are not being forced to do anything.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sagar Mehta
      Originally Posted by Raymond Edeh View Post


      The truth is that it is morally wrong.
      It's a graphic example of exploitation and modern way of slavery...
      With all respect, I seem to disagree with you Raymond. Nothing is 'the truth'. It's morally wrong, yes, but not to everybody. It's morally wrong - to you.

      Slavery is when a person is COMPELLED to work for someone else.

      If someone is working for less than $2 an hour willingly, I don't think it is unethical. I wouldn't pay someone that low personally but it's out there and we can pick whom we want to work for us. More importantly, THEY can pick if they want to work for us at whatever rate.

      Demand and supply as usual - it seems heartless the way economics works but that's the way it is.

      Regards,
      Sagar
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Raymond Edeh View Post

      The truth is that it is morally wrong.
      It's a graphic example of exploitation and modern way of slavery...


      Kindest,
      Raymond
      I agree, it is morally wrong to pay someone for a service so they can feed themselves and their families. Yeah, it would be much better if they were earning a dollar a month like many of your fellow Africans, one of which happens to be the step-brother of the U.S. president-elect.

      Hey, I've just figured out how we can end poverty worldwide: a mandatory global minimum wage of $30 an hour. Heck, we won't even have a work requirement, everyone will get it because....well, just because. Then no one would be poor.

      /sarc off
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      • Profile picture of the author clint48
        If the economy here in the US continues to decline, you will probably notice a lot of people willing to work for $2.00 an hr. I think that is about what I am working for right now trying to get my graphic business started as a matter of fact.

        Clint
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    • Profile picture of the author cloudchaser22
      Originally Posted by Raymond Edeh View Post

      The truth is that it is morally wrong.
      It's a graphic example of exploitation and modern way of slavery...


      Kindest,
      Raymond
      I agree with this... I could understand paying someone in the Philippines $2 per outsourced article, but $2 per hour means this poor worker could be writing 20 articles per hour for basically one DIME per ARTICLE.

      Raymond said that this is a "modern" way of slavery... Slavery is a form of subjugation. To many people, this is wrong. The worker isn't forced to do anything. But it can be interpreted in that way. If this worker and his/her family is starving and trying to put food on the table, then they HAVE NO CHOICE but to take whatever opportunity given to them (even if it was 25 cents/per hour working). To me this is a form of subjugation/slavery when one person is exploiting others to use that money on vacations to Hawaii or playing golf everyday while another person is using that money to put food in the hands of perhaps a starving family... so in my opinion, it is not illegal but deep down in my heart, it is an unethical.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dixiebelle
      Originally Posted by Raymond Edeh View Post

      The truth is that it is morally wrong.
      It's a graphic example of exploitation and modern way of slavery...


      Kindest,
      Raymond
      I thought when Barak Obama was elected President, this kind of remark would stop. Guess I was wrong.

      Dixie
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
      Originally Posted by Raymond Edeh View Post

      The truth is that it is morally wrong.
      It's a graphic example of exploitation and modern way of slavery...
      That's a real insult to people who really WERE slaves, taken against their will, families separated, treated worse than animals.

      To compare someone freely working for a wage to slavery is really offensive.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kirk Ward
      Originally Posted by Raymond Edeh View Post

      The truth is that it is morally wrong.
      It's a graphic example of exploitation and modern way of slavery...

      Kindest,
      Raymond
      You poor, persecuted and abused person. Are your negotiating skills so poor that you have to live by throwing guilt?
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  • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
    My brother has two full-time overseas VA's that he pays < $2 per hour. At different times, both have told him how much of a blessing his hiring them has been.

    For a comparable wage as they were earing at a full-time office job, they are able to stay home and deal with family issues instead of being trapped in an office. They have flexible work schedules. Plus, he's not real demanding and the work is easy.

    I suppose the "ethical" alternative is to not hire them, and instead hire a college kid for $7+ per hour for beer money. (Yes, I know that's a generalization - almost as bad as yours that these people are being exploited.)

    Exactly who do you think you're hiring with the lowball bids at GetaFreelancer or Elance? If they totaled their hours, what do you think their per-hour wage would be? In my book, offering a permanent full-time position is a real step up from these contracted jobs.
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  • Profile picture of the author globalpro
    I agree that if a price is agreed upon then it's both morally and ethically sound. Like it's been stated, many other countries have a lower cost of living, so the people have a lower rate of pay.

    How do you think the outsourcing of jobs in the uS came about? People in other countries offering to do work at a lower rate. Some said it was undercutting the market in the US, but it was simply business. People have to start taking a global perspective where the economy is concerned.

    As a suggestion, if you outsource to someone in another country, where you feel their price is too low, if they do a good job for you, you could always give them a bonus. That would be a good thing to do.

    I know this may be a bone of contention, but I know quite a few marketers that outsource to other countries not so much for price, but because they get a higher level of service and standard of work done.

    Like anything, you get what you pay for, but I don't want to pay top dollar for shoddy work.

    Thanks,

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author eireen
      Originally Posted by doop View Post

      I just received an e-mail from a marketer..... check out the video for yourself here:

      BUT WE HAVE TO DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE....

      Now my question is - Is this crossing the line of ethical employment?!

      Is he "exploiting" these people....?
      Sir,
      Im from the philippines, will you be surprised if ill tell you that 1-2$ per hour is quite a big amount for a freelancer? If somebody will pay me $2 per hour while staying at home ill be very happy for that. Telling you this, a regular employee here is paid for 7-8$ for 8 hrs of work. So if that guy is paying $1 per hour ill still go for it,since it is a homebased work and i dont have to spend for my transportation anymore and much more if he'll pay me 2$ per hour. Ive been doing captcha projects from india, i have a team of 20 people and to tell you this our client was paying us less than a dollar for every 1000 coded captcha. But still there are people here that are willing to do the job than doing nothing at all. Now can we call this exploitation? and sometimes you have to stay awake for 8 hours to make 1000 captcha if youre in evening shift. But that only shows that we are hardworking people. And any work will do. As long as it's legal.

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      • Profile picture of the author WebSolutionKey
        Originally Posted by eireen View Post

        Sir,
        Im from the philippines, will you be surprised if ill tell you that 1-2$ per hour is quite a big amount for a freelancer? If somebody will pay me $2 per hour while staying at home ill be very happy for that. Telling you this, a regular employee here is paid for 7-8$ for 8 hrs of work. So if that guy is paying $1 per hour ill still go for it,since it is a homebased work and i dont have to spend for my transportation anymore and much more if he'll pay me 2$ per hour. Ive been doing captcha projects from india, i have a team of 20 people and to tell you this our client was paying us less than a dollar for every 1000 coded captcha. But still there are people here that are willing to do the job than doing nothing at all. Now can we call this exploitation? and sometimes you have to stay awake for 8 hours to make 1000 captcha if youre in evening shift. But that only shows that we are hardworking people. And any work will do. As long as it's legal.


        Working out 1000 captcha codes just for mere $1 is too wierd
        I'm really surprised that you do works for such a low price. Do you know SEO works? If so there are lots of warriors in this forum who can help you out with some good deals. PM me if you are interested
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  • Profile picture of the author gcjmarkets
    How much do sweat shop workers get? I am also pretty sure there was no shortage of people willing to work in those conditions either.

    It just makes me sick to my stomach seeing videos like the one in the op post because to me thats a pipe dream and it perpetuates the internet marketing stereotype of do nothing and get rich over night. Im sorry but even when you outsource everything and your entire business is on autopilot you still have to work. For one you have to direct each project so that the final result is what you have in mind and two if you sit still long enough you will get passed by. Either someone will figure out how to take what you have or your business will just get outdated.
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  • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
    nice promoting that capture page - how many emails you get off the warrior forum

    Anyways,

    Who thinks this is unethical? LOL

    This is great for US and Philippines..

    Have you ever been to a country were they are starving? Where you can't get a job, because there is no work? So, you think providing someone like that, with 2/hr (that's rich to some) is unethical?

    What would you rather have, $.25 an hour, or no job and no pay?
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Forey
    I think it is all relative to the standard of living. If that same person could only get $1 working for someone else it is great pay.

    Michael Forey
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    • Profile picture of the author JPMaroney
      Originally Posted by Michael Forey View Post

      I think it is all relative to the standard of living. If that same person could only get $1 working for someone else it is great pay.

      Michael Forey
      AGREE!!!

      That's what I was thinking the whole time -- and was scanning the thread looking to see if someone else had said it before posting it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        Originally Posted by JPMaroney View Post

        AGREE!!!

        That's what I was thinking the whole time -- and was scanning the thread looking to see if someone else had said it before posting it.
        JP, 17 posts since Feb. 2005? Your keyboard must be hot.

        Seriously though, good to hear from you.

        Perhaps we'll be lucky enough to lure you into posting a little more frequently.

        Have you found your way over to Bruce's new copywriting board yet?
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  • Profile picture of the author chewie49
    It would be unethical if the people accepting the job were angry about the wage, but if people accept it,...they are happy with it.

    In MANY countries, 2$/hour it is really BIG BIG money
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    • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
      Originally Posted by chewie49 View Post

      It would be unethical if the people accepting the job were angry about the wage, but if people accept it,...they are happy with it.

      In MANY countries, 2$/hour it is really BIG BIG money
      Sometimes the "privileged" countries can't see how 2/hr is successful for some...
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  • Profile picture of the author Gerald Bowman
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
      Originally Posted by Gerald Bowman View Post

      I guess, it varies from person to person.
      Gerald you're so right.

      That's why its such a powerful technique to be able to see from all eyes...
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        "What is the sound of one knee jerking?"

        Leaving aside the anonymous nature of the OP, and the fact that the (obviously low-detail) picture next to his post could well be the same person as in the video (or not)...

        Yes. It's terribly unethical to go into a market and offer to hire willing people for substantially more than the prevailing wage, for work that's easier, safer and more enjoyable than what they'd usually get for the price. Offering someone the opportunity to significantly improve the standard of living they and their family enjoy is the very definition of crass, materialistic exploitation.

        Doh!

        But that's already been answered.

        The real curiosity in this thread is the common mistake of confusing personal opinion, often one that's totally uninformed, with ethical consideration.

        "I don't like it, so it must be Bad."

        Context, folks.

        Consider: It would be fairly unusual for people who can afford personal computers and Internet connectivity to be among a country's desperately poor and starving. These folks have real options. That hardly fits the negative connotation of exploitation as I understand it.

        Describing this as slavery simply indicates that the person presenting that idea is an idiot. Slaves aren't given free choices, much less choices that beat the market.

        This business of trotting out the word "unethical" for things a person simply happens to dislike makes that person look irrational and uninformed. And it only works on similarly uninformed people.

        Confusing ethics with "entitlement" is a dangerous mistake.


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        • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Offering someone the opportunity to significantly improve the standard of living they and their family enjoy is the very definition of crass, materialistic exploitation.
          Insightful post, Paul, but are you saying offering someone the opportunity to improve there standard of living and life is a bad thing because its materialistic?
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Insightful post, Paul, but are you saying offering someone the opportunity to improve there standard of living and life is a bad thing because its materialistic?
            Sorry. I have to stop using those obscure writer's tricks in lay forums.

            No. That was what we in the trade call sardonic humor. It's closely related to sarcasm, but more disdainful and less abrasive.


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  • Profile picture of the author lennelljones
    It all depends on where you live and what the cost of living is in that particular country. What may seem downright insulting and unethical in some parts of the world is actually a very decent living wage in other parts of the world. Ultimately, it is up to the individual considering the job whether he/she will accept the offered wage.
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    • Makes you wonder if he couldn't bump it up to $3 an hour and be a hero
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  • Profile picture of the author Kelly Verge
    Now you've got me thinking...

    I was pretty excited after a phone call I got yesterday. I've been asked to do some contract IM work for the Dubai royal family. They want to pay me $7,000 per day.

    Now I've done some research and have found out that they've been paying a local firm to do this work for $30K per day.

    I guess I shouldn't allow myself to be taken advantage of and put into this kind of slavery.

    Thanks for setting me straight.
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    • Profile picture of the author candoit2
      Originally Posted by Kelly Verge View Post

      Now you've got me thinking...

      I was pretty excited after a phone call I got yesterday. I've been asked to do some contract IM work for the Dubai royal family. They want to pay me $7,000 per day.

      Now I've done some research and have found out that they've been paying a local firm to do this work for $30K per day.

      I guess I shouldn't allow myself to be taken advantage of and put into this kind of slavery.

      Thanks for setting me straight.
      Stand up for yourself and quit! :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author joblythe
    Now I've done some research and have found out that they've been paying a local firm to do this work for $30K per day.
    Mmmm just got a phone call yesterday saying we had lost the contract!

    Damn - so it was true! We will have to sharpen our pencils (and no Xmas pressies for the kids this year!)

    Ahhhhh!
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    • Profile picture of the author Kamran
      It is perfectly ethical. Why? Because $2 is 98.3238 PHP ( Philippines Pesos) at a rate of 1 USD = 49.1619 PHP. I made a Google search and found that the minimum hourly wage is 50 PHP. By the way the median hourly rate for software programmers is 135 PHP=$2.75
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  • Profile picture of the author ndcole78
    No, it's not unethical. If they agree to the price and it's not against the law, then it's fine. There's nothing sneaky or fishy about it. The cost of living is so much cheaper in India, ect. than it is in the US, so the lower fee is good for them--not in the US though.

    Big businesses have been doing it for years. If you have a computer problem, cable problem, ect., just call in and I'll bet that 90% of the time you'll be talking to someone from another country.

    I know sometimes it's frustrating because you spend more time trying to understand what the operator is saying rather than getting your problem resolved, but this is just what things have come to in an effort to increase profit margins.
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  • Profile picture of the author jayden.fellze
    Originally Posted by doop View Post

    I just received an e-mail from a marketer..... check out the video for yourself here:

    Replace Myself | HomePage

    The guy is paying workers in the Philippines about $1-$2 PER HOUR to create his "Ultimate IM Lifestyle".

    Now I'm all for outsourcing - in fact i wouldn't be nearly as successful online if it wasn't for outsourcing.

    BUT WE HAVE TO DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE....

    Now my question is - Is this crossing the line of ethical employment?!

    Is he "exploiting" these people....?
    Well, this is hard to tell. As some people here in this thread pointed out, people in some parts of the world are paid less or near 2$ equivalent on their regular jobs. For them, 2$ an hour is a pretty good enough.
    While for others its just enough to pay for a box of paper clips.
    So, its basically how the market operates.
    Although, personally, I wouldnt ask someone to work for me at 2$ an hour where I am seeing people doing the same work for 200$/hour. It would be very unfair and would be oppressive (sorry, not getting the right expression here)....
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    • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
      Originally Posted by jayden.fellze View Post

      Although, personally, I wouldnt ask someone to work for me at 2$ an hour where I am seeing people doing the same work for 200$/hour. It would be very unfair and would be oppressive (sorry, not getting the right expression here)....
      I feel the same way, but remember this- you may be paying someone less in one country and more in the country..

      And you have to factor in cost of living. The person you are paying less can very well have a better life because of the cost of living offset.

      Its a BIG WORLD out there..
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
    Well, first thanks for the heads up, I will definitely have a look at what the guy has to say.

    I moved here in the Philippines 2 months ago, and although I didn't expect much, I knew I wanted to stay away from the whole expat package (fully furnished condo with spa and gym ...). So I set up my studio in an "average" neighborhood.

    Some facts:

    - My neighbors are 4 adults (with wives), all siblings (from a family of 13), living under the same roof - with their older father, and the kids.

    - One out of 13 siblings is working right now. The rest of the house income comes from a sister living in Japan - and working there.

    - At least 40% of the neighborhood is currently unemployed, looking for relatives support and odd jobs from time to time - not to supplement their income, but to survive.

    - A double cheese burger value meal costs me about 3$ here.

    - Most people from the middle-lower class wouldn't even dare "waste" so much money on a meal.

    - My neighbors buy matchboxes at 0.06 cents.

    - Their electricity was cut off months ago, because they couldn't pay the bills.

    - The man who is working right now has more than 13 years of experience working as a host in Dubai's most prestigious hotel - and has personally met more of the world's most influential man than you could list on your fingers. Here, he's lucky to have found a 250$ per month IT job.

    - One of the woman living next to me has worked in Dubai for 9 years in the hotel industry as well. She is 35 years old - too old to find any work here.

    So you tell me it's unethical to give those people an opportunity to EARN enough money to LIVE? (and I'm talking about living here, not surviving).

    Edit: What IS unethical is the corrupt politicians ripping off their own people. Not the foreigners that bring investment money and employment opportunities. And fear not, I do my part to make sure the government doesn't get one penny more than they are legally entitled to.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nicola Lane
    The relatively cheap cost of living and prices in some parts of the world are why jobs are outsourced to them to begin with!

    A large company can get jobs like call centers for as little as 10% of the cost of a US or UK based center.

    It would be unethical to pay someone in the UK or US $2 an hour - but if it is above the minimum wage where they are located what is the problem?
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
      Originally Posted by Nicola Lane View Post

      The relatively cheap cost of living and prices in some parts of the world are why jobs are outsourced to them to begin with!

      A large company can get jobs like call centers for as little as 10% of the cost of a US or UK based center.

      It would be unethical to pay someone in the UK or US $2 an hour - but if it is above the minimum wage where they are located what is the problem?
      I see a problem when the work environment and tasks required go against the basic principles of human dignity - such as is often the case with the sweatshops that sometimes make the news, or even back in Canada where you will often find nurses forced to work double or triple shifts.

      This impacts the quality of life of a person the most - not the amount of money given to them for a task, but how the said task is going to reflect on all other aspects of their lives.
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      • Profile picture of the author Hesaidblissfully
        Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois View Post

        I see a problem when the work environment and tasks required go against the basic principles of human dignity - such as is often the case with the sweatshops that sometimes make the news, or even back in Canada where you will often find nurses forced to work double or triple shifts.

        This impacts the quality of life of a person the most - not the amount of money given to them for a task, but how the said task is going to reflect on all other aspects of their lives.
        I agree with this. And remember a lot of these countries where work is outsourced are the same places you see in those "Save the Children" type commercials where they're telling you that "for less than a dollar a day, you can pay for a child's food and medicine."
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  • Profile picture of the author drmani
    Originally Posted by doop View Post

    Now my question is - Is this crossing the line of ethical employment?!

    Is he "exploiting" these people....?

    "The bottom of the (economic) pyramid consists of the 4 billion people
    living on less than $2 per day."


    Bottom of the pyramid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Think they wouldn't happily work for $2 an HOUR?!

    I was at a presentation in India by (and briefly spoke with) Dr.C.K.Prahalad,
    author of "The Fortune at the Bottom of the Pyramid", he has some fascinating
    ideas about harnessing this huge entrepreneurial pool.

    All success
    Dr.Mani
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    • Profile picture of the author Kirk Ward
      Following the model of free competition, as income flows into that area and uses up the available resources (peoples time), the prices will rise. So, sending $2/hour to a lower priced market is helping raise that groups prices and will make it "fairer."

      That will lead to inflation, and higher prices for those who cannot perform services. Thus creating more pain and misery for some.

      And then, is it ethical to ask me to take money from my pocket, which I need to purchase goods and services necessary for my existence, (food and shelter being the main application.) and pay more than is negotiated, in order to increase the income of someone else, whose needs are less expensive?

      The creator of this thread is displaying the class prejudices of someone who has reached a comfort level beyond their feeling of self worth and is trying to assuage their "guilt" by pontificating about ethics.

      Jeez
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  • Profile picture of the author Recon
    Banned
    If both parties agreed to a price beforehand or had their conditions clearly stated to each other then I think it's fair, since even if we considered it exploitation the "victim" clearly knew what he or she was getting into.

    But that being said, it's still very subjective due to a few other factors such as cost of living in that particular place and so on and so forth.

    Well if they're happy and it makes them a decent living, I don't see why we should really brood so much over it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      In an EXTREMELY OVERSIMPLIFIED manner, this is what ethics means to me...

      "Do No Harm"

      The problem with your questioning of this guy's ethics is that you're considering your reality and what you would consider to be harmful to you and trying to apply that same standard to someone on the other side of the world. A person who has a different reality and a different standard as to what is considered harmful to them.

      Your judgement seems to be clouded by using a fixed universal context. Which is certainly not the case.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Here's another way of looking at it. Assuming, for the sake of discussion, that minimum wage in the Phillipines has the same buying power as minimum wage in the US, $2/hr there is roughly equal to $13/hr here.

        Hire 2 people in the same home at those rates, full-time, and they're making the equivalent of $52,000 US, for physically safe and relatively non-stressful work from their own home.

        Hire one at $3/hr, and they're making the equivalent of just about US $40,000/yr. For relatively easy and mostly unskilled work.

        On the flip side, eireen just described people being paid the US equivalent of 82 CENTS/hr for second shift work, because they need the money so badly. And, if they're doing remote captchas, they're involved in something distinctly spammish/blackhat in nature.

        Which qualifies as exploitation?

        Alexandre makes the best point in the thread: Look at the effect of your wages on the dignity and quality of life they provide for the work involved. That's your measuring stick.


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        • Profile picture of the author freedom25
          Personally, I wouldn't feel right paying someone such a low wage. Although people have made fair points that these people are offering their services at these low prices, I still feel that people should be rewarded more fairly for their work - no matter where they come from.
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        • Profile picture of the author Simo
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Here's another way of looking at it. Assuming, for the sake of discussion, that minimum wage in the Phillipines has the same buying power as minimum wage in the US, $2/hr there is roughly equal to $13/hr here.

          Hire 2 people in the same home at those rates, full-time, and they're making the equivalent of $52,000 US, for physically safe and relatively non-stressful work from their own home.

          Hire one at $3/hr, and they're making the equivalent of just about US $40,000/yr. For relatively easy and mostly unskilled work.

          On the flip side, eireen just described people being paid the US equivalent of 82 CENTS/hr for second shift work, because they need the money so badly. And, if they're doing remote captchas, they're involved in something distinctly spammish/BlueFart in nature.

          Which qualifies as exploitation?

          Alexandre makes the best point in the thread: Look at the effect of your wages on the dignity and quality of life they provide for the work involved. That's your measuring stick.


          Paul
          Hi Guys,

          I have just come back from the Philippines, with my fiance who is from Cebu. Seriously - many of you don't actually have to much of an insight of the working conditions, the living conditions and the everyday life of people in the Philippines.

          Paul Myers and Kansas Dragon are on to it. These people want your business and in fact would:

          -prefer to be around their families more
          -prefer to have an employer that cares
          -prefer to not have to travel anywhere from 50 - 100kms to their job each day.
          -will happily work hard to earn your trust.

          So lets look at some startling facts about the average wage in the Philippines:

          The typical wage for a "unskilled" Filipino work is between 500 - 1000 pesos per month. (That's US $22 on today's exchange rate - if you earn 1000 pesos.)

          By comparison the average salary of a professional is 25,000 pesos (US$563 on today's exchange rate).

          To put this into perspective, my fiance's cousin is a registered nurse who has been in the workforce for over a year and earns US $225 a month.

          So even at $2 an hour based on a 40 hour work week they will be making US $320 - or 14,208 pesos.

          So what if you decide to double your wage for your worker? They are essentially earning the same wage as a "professional" and are very likely to be in the top 50% of income earners in the Philippines.

          At $2 an hour you are making a positive impact on someone's life in the philippines. at $4 an hour you are effectively changing their (and their families) living circumstances.

          Hope that enlightens people a bit more
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      • Profile picture of the author Kim Standerline
        I think you bout summed it up Lance

        Kim


        Originally Posted by Lance K View Post

        In an EXTREMELY OVERSIMPLIFIED manner, this is what ethics means to me...

        "Do No Harm"

        The problem with your questioning of this guy's ethics is that you're considering your reality and what you would consider to be harmful to you and trying to apply that same standard to someone on the other side of the world. A person who has a different reality and a different standard as to what is considered harmful to them.

        Your judgement seems to be clouded by using a fixed universal context. Which is certainly not the case.
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  • Profile picture of the author chewie49
    Anybody that can speak spanish fluently here?

    I am hiring. I am paying 2$/hour, 2 hours per day, 5 days a week (I'm serious)

    Regards,

    Chewie.
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    • Profile picture of the author freetraff
      I think the solution is simple - share your knowledge about how to make more money online, so that poor outsourcing staff finds out how to earn more than $2.

      They will stop doing that instantly, if they get an option.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
        Originally Posted by freetraff View Post

        I think the solution is simple - share your knowledge about how to make more money online, so that poor outsourcing staff finds out how to earn more than $2.

        They will stop doing that instantly, if they get an option.

        Keep in mind, you're saying that because YOU are an entrepreneur yourself. You have already decided to make money online and run your own business, which in itself sets you apart from what ... 99.9% of the population?

        Most people are not interested in having their own business.
        - It's 24h/7
        - There's no "paid vacation" and "work benefits"
        - You don't get paid overtime
        - Things often won't go the way you had planned.
        - It takes lots of energy and money to get started ....

        Which means ... given the choice between a good work environment, and making a leap of faith, most people would choose the work without even thinking twice about it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Adam Kenzington
        I am a fan of John Jonas, and I own the Replace Myself program he produces.

        For those of you who think these Filipino workers are being exploited, go to:

        www.bestjobs.ph

        and view the resumes that these job seekers have posted. These are college graduates, with 2-4 years experience in their chosen field, that have named the salary price that they want for doing your work.

        They are looking for full-time employment...8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and they are charging, on average, $350 - $400 per month. This is what they are asking, not the slave wages that some unethical capitalist pig is forcing them to take.

        $350 - $400 per month, in the Philippines, is a good living wage.

        I have a friend in India that I Skype with daily. When I complained that my elect bill was $489.51 this month, he was shocked (I was shocked, too!), and told me that both of his parents (professionals) make less than that in a month, and he (a young man, just a few years in the job market) makes $225/mo.

        Yet, they live very comfortably. Granted, you would starve, here in the states, on $2/hr., but the cost of living in these other countries is such that $2/hr is a damn good wage, that they are happy to get.

        They get other perks. It is customary, in the Philippines, to pay your worker a bonus, once they have been in your employ for 1 year... something they call "the 13th month". It's a bonus the equalavant of 1 month's wages. (Their version of the Christmas bonus) This is expected of you, as an employer. Seems fair to me.

        These folks are wanting this work, they do it well, and the unethical part in all this would be to deny them the opportunity, because you don't want to exploit them.
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      • Profile picture of the author AlanS2323
        I have no idea, because I have no idea what $2 buys in whatever country the outsources are working in. Maybe $2 is a lot of money where they are. What would be ethical? Paying US minimum wage? In a lot of places around the world, paying US minimum wage would make a person relatively rich.

        In any event, given my own experience with outsources, you're probably not getting good help for $2/hour.
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        • Profile picture of the author Wah Bhatti
          in most contries its like £1 will be what they buy in ther local currencey so waht you buy for £ or $ at home they do the same its just the exchange rate that helps us guys out

          then ther is the underprivilisation and just a mass of people who need your $ as they live on that per day

          "how smart, loyal, educated, and hard working the Filipino people are, they'll be just fine"


          when you be come smart and loyal and true im sure live will work for you


          ps any spelling courses gouing our shall i out sourse that to
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      • Profile picture of the author Russell Turner
        I thought that this was called free market capitalism.
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard HAN
        Personally, as long as there is a willing buyer and willing seller in the deal, then I don't see what is so unethical about paying $2/hour for services provided. Remember! You think the rate is too low because probably where you come from, it's inconceivable for someone to work for such paltry rate. But, in countries like India or Philippines, $2/hour could be a princely amount to them. It's all relative to the cost of living.
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    • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
      Whats the quality like a $2 per hour?
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
      What's with the word "ethics" today? It's being tossed around a lot.

      Anyways, the word capitalism comes from the fact that entrepreneurs capitalize off the labours of others. And, if we can get workers willing to work for $2/hour it means we can capitalize off that. If you want set wages and controls on how we pay people, it means we have to invite Karl Marx and Co back again.

      Also, I've slung heavy hay bales for $2/hr. It was the early 1970s, and I was getting paid a lot more than my buddies in the city.
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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
        So a question for those who think it is ethical and live in Canada, U.S., G.B. etc. where these types of low wages don't exist...
        Countries like the US and the UK have a large population of illegal immigrants who will work in dangerous or crappy jobs for almost nothing. Some people even contend that without this black market workforce agriculture and the restaurant business would be in big trouble.

        In the 80s I worked in a restaurant where the Polish dishwasher was getting $120 for a 90 hour week.

        When I found this out I was disgusted with the owner but the Polish guy begged me not to say anything. It was the only job he could find and he was actually earning double his parents' combined income (they were doctors!). Basically, he was going to spend 2 years in London then go back to Poland where he would be able to buy a big farm with the money he saved.

        So before you talk ethics (but the restaurant owner was a real sh*t), think about the good the money can do in the hands of a motivated person. Two years and he became a rich farmer in his country, helping his family, creating jobs, adding to the wealth of his country . . .

        If you haven't lived in a country with desperately poor people it's hard to realize how a small regular income can transform someone's life.

        In the Kingdom of the Poor the internet freelancer is King


        The difficult issue that people might have to address, which was mentioned earlier in the thread but didn't get much attention, is

        What happens when you get desperate, unemployed Americans applying for these $2 an hour jobs?

        "Sorry, I feel bad paying a fellow American such a low wage"

        or

        "Hey, you're American so I'll pay you $8 an hour"

        We all have to follow our own individual conscience.


        Martin
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        • Profile picture of the author Alice Seba
          Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

          Countries like the US and the UK have a large population of illegal immigrants who will work in dangerous or crappy jobs for almost nothing. Some people even contend that without this black market workforce agriculture and the restaurant business would be in big trouble.

          In the 80s I worked in a restaurant where the Polish dishwasher was getting $120 for a 90 hour week.
          My apologies, Martin. I was referring to "legal wages". If illegal things like that happen, I'm certainly not privy to it, but it does illustrate the greed of some companies who will take advantage of the situation in their own countries.
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    • Profile picture of the author L.Roman
      To be honest, $2.00 over there is like $25.00 here, so no, it's not unethical. That IMer just found a better way to profit, more power to him.

      And that is what actually happened to the website industry, you had people from other countries do it really cheap because of the money exchange value.

      Why would someone pay $300 for a website, when they can pay $100 to someone in another country...
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Raymond,
          My father use to say that one man is meat and another man is poison.
          Ouch!

          This is a great example of the challenge of translating this sort of thing.

          It's "One man's meat is another man's poison."

          Unless your dad was Hannibal Lecter...


          Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author cloudchaser22
        Originally Posted by naruq View Post

        I do not think it is unethical if the person agrees to do the job for $2.00 per hour. If the person who was outsourcing the job forced the individual to do the job for $2.00 per hour then this would be a different story.
        Sorry I made a mistake saying $2.00 per hour...
        The Filipino worker is actually getting paid $1.00 - $1.75 per hour, which is even lower :/

        Some person mentioned that: $2/hour/Philippines = $25/hour/US
        Does that also mean that: $1/hour/Philippines = $12.50/hour/US?
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    • Profile picture of the author naruq
      I do not think it is unethical if the person agrees to do the job for $2.00 per hour. If the person who was outsourcing the job forced the individual to do the job for $2.00 per hour then this would be a different story.
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    • Profile picture of the author koolphoto
      I am a freelancer. I do web design. I set my own rates. I can charge anything I want. If I choose to charge $2 an hour I may be foolish but it has nothing to do about being ethical or not if you use me.

      On the other hand if you somehow force me to accept a rate that is lower then I would rather work for but maybe somehow you coerced me and I feel forced to take it then that is where I think ethics comes into play.
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      • Let's not forget that over a third of the world is living on less than $2 per day period. So $2 per hour is an extremely better deal to 1 out of 3 people on our planet.

        When I got into affiliate marketing a few years ago I always thought about how getting one American to sign up for some ringtone offer had the same value as providing food for a week to a whole family in a different country.

        We are a great country, and having so many things makes our expenses much much higher
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  • Profile picture of the author mudmat
    I don't think it is unethical because the person has accepted to the job for $2 per hour so there is already a mutual agreement.

    And I don't think the marketer force the person to accept the job.

    I would love to outsource for just $2 per hour..
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  • Profile picture of the author BrainDance
    I think the guy is taking serious advantage of a workforce that is unable to get compensated for what they are worth. Whether or not both parties agreed to it, i don't think its a matter of ethics, I think it is a matter of character, and like everyone else, that is my opinion.
    Despite the economic conditions, being fair to others is important. If you continually look for ways to take advantage of people to get what you want, well I hope you get bit in the a**.

    to this comment:
    But that only shows that we are hardworking people. And any work will do. As long as it's legal.
    hardworking people are worth more than 2.00 an hour. Quality work deserves quality pay. I don't care that you only need 2.00 to 'survive', you should be paid 20.00 so you can "live", turn around and invest in your country, local businesses and economy.
    I agree that 2.00 is better than nothing, in a sense it is all relative, but where does it end. I personally do not outsource, but being in freelance I see a lot of overseas workers providing nice work for a 5th of what I do, and good for them, if it is affordable and everyone gets what they need..go for it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Clark
    Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois View Post

    ... or even back in Canada where you will often find nurses forced to work double or triple shifts.
    That is a complete falsehood.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
      Originally Posted by Clark View Post

      That is a complete falsehood.
      Clark, then it is probably only applicable in the province of Quebec and our public health care system.

      I've been wrong before - but I DO know first hand that it IS a huge issue back there (Quebec).
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      • Profile picture of the author Clark
        Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois View Post

        Clark, then it is probably only applicable in the province of Quebec and our public health care system.
        It is against Canadian Federal Law to "force" anyone to work any hours as well, nurses are bound by legal collective agreements which are supported by the unions they belong to and are protected by which also includes the right to strike or "work to rule" actions which is often used by law enforcement associations due to essential service status.

        In addition, the Candian Labour Code states:

        Maximum hours of work

        171. (1) An employee may be employed in excess of the standard hours of work but, subject to sections 172, 176 and 177, and to any regulations made pursuant to section 175, the total hours that may be worked by any employee in any week shall not exceed forty-eight hours in a week or such fewer total number of hours as may be prescribed by the regulations as maximum working hours in the industrial establishment in or in connection with the operation of which the employee is employed.
        There's also Canadian Human Rights to be considered as well which is a very serious process for the employer to be subject to if they are found to be in violation not to mention the Hospital will be at risk of lawsuits for mistreatment if/when the overworked/tired nurses make a mistake.... way too risky for the Canadian Government to condone such practices.

        Quebec is a part of Canada and its citizens are protected federally in regard to labour laws.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
          Originally Posted by Clark View Post

          It is against Canadian Federal Law to "force" anyone to work any hours as well, nurses are bound by legal collective agreements which are supported by the unions they belong to and are protected by which also includes the right to strike or "work to rule" actions which is often used by law enforcement associations due to essential service status.

          In addition, the Candian Labour Code states:



          There's also Canadian Human Rights to be considered as well which is a very serious process for the employer to be subject to if they are found to be in violation not to mention the Hospital will be at risk of lawsuits for mistreatment if/when the overworked/tired nurses make a mistake.... way too risky for the Canadian Government to condone such practices.

          Quebec is a part of Canada and its citizens are protected federally in regard to labour laws.
          Technically, they are - but laws are not without loopholes.

          Many working nurses have been literally suspended after refusing to work double/triple shifts, nothing any union could do about it.

          Whenever a case gets brought to court, the ruling goes in favor of the state and the "well-being and protection of the population" due to a lack of personnel to operate the facilities and provide adequate treatment to the people. Sometimes they will also throw in the fact that, by law, you are expected to provide assistance to anyone in need, unless your involvement would put either you, or the other person, at risk. Being trained to work in such a facility where people's lives can be on the line, they can give any hospital worker a hard time for not complying when asked to work double or triple shifts due to "staff shortage". Remember, those are public institutions here, funded by the government, with tax payer's money.

          Of course .... you are not FORCED .... let's just say ... Strongly encouraged? If you're not happy with it, you can always find another job ...

          No wonder people straight out of nursing school apply to work in private health clinics here - they get paid up to 3 times the salary, and don't have to deal with those issues. Which in the end, only contributes to making the public health system even worse ...
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          • Profile picture of the author TLCarroll
            I'm a career nurse here in the US for nearly 30 years.

            It is very common for nurses to work double shifts. Period.

            Nurses are understaffed and overworked everywhere and there is a huge nursing shortage in the US.

            Technicalities aside, it most certainly does go on everywhere.

            Also, if nurses refuse to work when they are "mandated", facilities make your life a misery by putting you in areas that are worse than your normal work area.

            I work in a private nursing environment for a nursing agency and am near retirement, but I have personally experienced these staffing problems. It is common and while the unions might help LPNs, if you are an RN like I am you're usually considered management and exempt from the union rules. Some places won't even pay overtime wages because you are considered flat rate due to being in management.

            Unfair, but true.

            The only good thing is that working in a facility means you'll have benefits like insurance and a pension. Working through a nursing agency your work schedule and workload is better but they don't offer paid benefits. You have to pay out of your own pocket. Which isn't a problem for many nurses whose spouse has benefits at thier jobs, but if you're single you're screwed.

            Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois View Post

            Technically, they are - but laws are not without loopholes.

            Many working nurses have been literally suspended after refusing to work double/triple shifts, nothing any union could do about it.

            Whenever a case gets brought to court, the ruling goes in favor of the state and the "well-being and protection of the population" due to a lack of personnel to operate the facilities and provide adequate treatment to the people. Sometimes they will also throw in the fact that, by law, you are expected to provide assistance to anyone in need, unless your involvement would put either you, or the other person, at risk. Being trained to work in such a facility where people's lives can be on the line, they can give any hospital worker a hard time for not complying when asked to work double or triple shifts due to "staff shortage". Remember, those are public institutions here, funded by the government, with tax payer's money.

            Of course .... you are not FORCED .... let's just say ... Strongly encouraged? If you're not happy with it, you can always find another job ...

            No wonder people straight out of nursing school apply to work in private health clinics here - they get paid up to 3 times the salary, and don't have to deal with those issues. Which in the end, only contributes to making the public health system even worse ...
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  • Profile picture of the author pjs
    Originally Posted by doop View Post

    I just received an e-mail from a marketer..... check out the video for yourself here:

    Replace Myself | HomePage

    The guy is paying workers in the Philippines about $1-$2 PER HOUR to create his "Ultimate IM Lifestyle".

    Now I'm all for outsourcing - in fact i wouldn't be nearly as successful online if it wasn't for outsourcing.

    BUT WE HAVE TO DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE....

    Now my question is - Is this crossing the line of ethical employment?!

    Is he "exploiting" these people....?
    I don't see how this is unethical. About a year ago I had an employee in the phillipines who worked full time for $250/mo and she was *ecstatic* to earn that. Her old "good paying" job as a bartender paid her less than $180/mo.

    In my opinion, it's a win-win.
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  • Profile picture of the author Clark
    There are no loopholes in regards to Canadian Human Rights.

    I would love to see your tangible example of a nurse being fired for refusing to work a third consecutive shift in a row and not being awarded wrongful dismissal compensation.

    Besides, the union would have to be apprised of the dismissal (usually part of the collective agreement) prior to the release of the employee and the union has the right to appeal and also seek arbitration to settle the dispute.

    Lack of personnel is not the responsibility of the worker so saying that the worker would lose a court ruling due to not wanting to work beyond what the Canadian Labour Code states is another falsehood.

    People straight out of nursing schools need to acquire experience before they market themselves to private sector practices because.... there is more money to be made outside of the public service sector for the same skills.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
      Originally Posted by Clark View Post

      There are no loopholes in regards to Canadian Human Rights.

      I would love to see your tangible example of a nurse being fired for refusing to work a third consecutive shift in a row and not being awarded wrongful dismissal compensation.

      Besides, the union would have to be apprised of the dismissal (usually part of the collective agreement) prior to the release of the employee and the union has the right to appeal and also seek arbitration to settle the dispute.

      Lack of personnel is not the responsibility of the worker so saying that the worker would lose a court ruling due to not wanting to work beyond what the Canadian Labour Code states is another falsehood.

      People straight out of nursing schools need to acquire experience before they market themselves to private sector practices because.... there is more money to made outside of the public service sector for the same skills.
      It seems useless, and completely out of topic to argue with your bookwise, which proves to be completely disconnected from the current reality of the public healthcare system as it is - so I'll just leave it at that and invite you to come over and spend some time Quebec, get to know a few people working in the public health sector, and make your own mind on the issue.
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  • Profile picture of the author richfit
    This is PURE Genius!

    A Serial Entrepreneurs Dream... You have to take into consideration what income salary's are in other country's.

    If someone is willing to do your work for $2 or $5 per day then so be it. Pay them a little more and they will be ecstatic.

    Treat your employees well and they will take care of you well. Now that's what I'm all about when hiring someone to work for you.

    Bryan Dulaney
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  • Profile picture of the author johnjonas
    I am John Jonas, the one who "pays people $2/hour" to live the lifestyle I live.

    Actually, that's wrong. I pay some people $1/hour! Some I pay $4-$5/hour.

    It depends on their skills and how much they ASK me to make.

    The one I pay $1/hour to ASKED me to pay them that much. At some point, I'll raise their pay and they'll be thrilled.

    Is that unethical?
    Is it unethical if every day they thank me for allowing them to work for me when I'm paying them $2?

    Did you even listen to the audio on my site? Did you listen to the part where I said that someone making $400/month is living a pretty good life in the Philippines?

    Would you rather I not pay them and have them be unemployed? Or making $30/month?

    Enough said.

    Now...moving on...

    1. There is lots of talk about India in this thread. If you're going to do what I do, DON'T hire people in india (yes...yes...I just offended a whole sub-continent...let the flame war begin). I'm just telling you, you'll have a MUCH better experience if you hire in the Philippines. Listen to the audio on my site.

    2. After listening to the audio on my site, you would be crazy to not hire someone to do your work for you. A) you give someone else a job, B) you create value for yourself, C) you free up your own time to create more value for others D) giving more people jobs. It's an upward spiral.

    John Jonas
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  • Profile picture of the author InternetM39482
    Ethical, it may not be. But 2 USD is good amount for someone, and even 5000 USD is not good for some others.

    It really depends on the average lifestyle you live.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Bogowski
    This is an interesting thread... I tend to look at it like this.

    When I worked a normal desk job I used to earn a decent wage. I knew that I could probably get a job somewhere else paying more, but I didn't

    My employer wouldn't just walk up to me and say 'Hey Mike, want a raise?' . Id have to ask for it.

    This is exactly the same, if someone is willing to do a job for that price, Im damn sure going to pay it until they either ask for more, or quit in which case i'll find someone else.
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    • Profile picture of the author ShayB
      Okay.....I am going to chime in here....

      If someone accepts a certain amount, then that is their business.

      Can I use a different perspective?

      If I tell someone I charge $400 for a freelance project, then that is the amount of money I have determined I need in order to make an acceptable wage.

      Now, if someone is living in an area where you rent apartments for $2000 a month, they might think, "How on earth can she charge that? How can she live on that?" But, for me, $400 is a very nice payment.

      I do not expect a person living in an area that has a high cost of living to answer, "No! I insist on paying you $1000 because there is no way you could live on $400!" (Not that I would mind....:rolleyes

      I guess what I am saying is that the wage is really determined by the freelancer, not the person offering the freelance work. The freelancer is the one who decides whether or not to accept a certain wage. The freelancer is always free to say, "No, thanks. That's not enough."

      JMHO
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    In 1989 I washed dishes for $3.85 an hour.

    That was minimum wage at the time.

    In Minnesota Minimum wage today is $5.25 an hour.

    If you put it in perspective it does not seem all that crazy that people are willing to work in India for $2 an hour. I bet there are many who get paid much less working jobs locally.

    When I was a pre teen I remember my neighbors paying me two bits to mow their lawn... of course I also remember feeling they were stingy and not wanting to do it again.
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  • Profile picture of the author sevenish
    I've worked with outsourced teams a few months ago located in Viet Nam charging a combined rate of USD$35 / hr. while the client I was working with (a publicly-traded company) billed USD$200 for the same work.

    Another forum that I frequent has a team ready to go for certain types of work for USD$2 / hr.

    They're advertising services; I'm buying. Where is the ethical issue? Where is the exploitation? Slavery?! Nope. I'll not even address that.

    I live in Manhattan and am raising kids by myself, so I need 140K per annum minimum to get by. In Mumbai or Ho Chi Min the economics are a bit different.

    Again, if they advertise the services at discounted rates what's the issue with purchasing those services?
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  • Profile picture of the author GoTrends
    Wow ... I just got this in the email from Michelle MacPhearson
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    • Profile picture of the author tj
      Originally Posted by GoTrends View Post

      Wow ... I just got this in the email from Michelle MacPhearson
      you got what?
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      • Profile picture of the author eireen
        Ok, Here in the Philippines. $1 is equivalent to 49.50 philippine peso. And daily wage here is Php 380.00 and that's for 8 hrs already, So if Someone is paying somebody $1/hour thats already Php 396.00, And if you're a freelancer like me, I can work more than 8 hrs a day at home, that means i dont have to spend for my transportation, i dont have to rush for heavy traffic and im comfortable in my working area.
        But there are still high paying jobs here. I think and am sure, most of the freelancers are mom's who want an extra income while staying at home, or some partimers or those people who is a little old. When i say a little old i mean you are in your late 20's. Yes , that's the bad thing here. Companies are hiring people 30 yrs old below, or 25 yrs old below only. Well, am done with $1 per hr. Found a lot of options and am earning more than that. But still am grateful that someone out there like Mr Jonh Jonas is helping filipinos.
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      • Profile picture of the author GoTrends
        Originally Posted by tj View Post

        you got what?
        She sent an email about this same site about outsourcing that we're discussing here.

        She sent a recommendation for it in the email.

        So it was just interesting to come on Warrior Forum and see the site and topic discussed.

        - TRENDS
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard Tunnah
    I agree that it's all in relation to the cost of living and what the amount will buy in the providers country. For instance in the UK the minimum wage of $11 (equivalent) means that people need a second job or to do long hours to be able to rent a small studio flat and live (well certainly in my city!). So does that mean that we should pay $20, $30, $50 or $100 an hour to give a UK based provider a good living otherwise it's slave labour?

    Rich
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Riddle
    Question time,

    How many here on the warrior forum, have spent hours and hours setting up web pages, writing article, promoting affiliate programs and even after all those hours......

    The niche wasn't profitable

    The traffic they paid to drive to the sign up didn't sign up

    Would they in fact been better off working for $2 an hour?

    Back in 1977 I was a Projectionist for a national chain of theaters making $5.25 an hour.

    I choose to leave that job, move 800+ miles away, for $4.74 an hour, everyone told me I was crazy to leave that high paying job.

    The Job I took was for Texas Instruments, That was the start of my 20 years in electronics.

    Determining what some job may or not may be worth with out complete details and an idea of the persons reasons for taking the job, is foolishness.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author Alice Seba
    So a question for those who think it is ethical and live in Canada, U.S., G.B. etc. where these types of low wages don't exist...

    Everyone is saying that $2/hour is a good wage in many parts. I don't dispute that, but as business owners in wealthier countries, you can afford to pay more (if not, there may be other issues to look at) . So, instead of giving them a "good job", why not double it up, pay $4/hour and give them an AMAZING opportunity?

    I guess that's where the balance is for me. Sure, you're doing good for people, but you can damn well do better for these people and still take home plenty for yourself. And imagine the loyalty you'll gain by making this gesture...and that's the key...gaining loyalty and people who will learn your business needs and work with you long term.

    It doesn't take people long before they realize they are much more valuable than they previously realized....and THAT is the beauty of the free market system to me. :-)

    Me - I pay my VA $25/hour and she is worth every penny. But I'm just crazy like that. ;-)

    Alice
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    • Profile picture of the author Colin Evans
      Originally Posted by Alice Seba View Post

      Everyone is saying that $2/hour is a good wage in many parts. I don't dispute that, but as business owners in wealthier countries, you can afford to pay more (if not, there may be other issues to look at) . So, instead of giving them a "good job", why not double it up, pay $4/hour and give them an AMAZING opportunity?
      Personally, I'd rather pay two people $2 than one person $4 - that way there's two happy people (make that families) instead of only one (IMO it also gives the local economy a more effective boost when two people earn an income instead of one higher paid person)...
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      • Profile picture of the author Alice Seba
        Originally Posted by Colin Evans View Post

        Personally, I'd rather pay two people $2 than one person $4 - that way there's two happy people (make that families) instead of only one (IMO it also gives the local economy a more effective boost when two people earn an income instead of one higher paid person)...
        Why not 2 people at $4/hour? ;-) Still very affordable.
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        • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
          Originally Posted by Alice Seba

          My apologies, Martin. I was referring to "legal wages". If illegal things like that happen, I'm certainly not privy to it, but it does illustrate the greed of some companies who will take advantage of the situation in their own countries.
          Alice,

          No apology necessary - there was no implied criticism

          Our respective governments tend not to advertise how much our economies depend on cheap black economy labo(u)r.

          I don't know if you have read the Lovejoy series of books (he's a loveable rogue antiques dealer).

          Lovejoy values antiques based on the daily wage of a skilled worker. So, for example, a Louis XIV chair wouldn't be $70,000 it would be 2 years' wages.

          I think that would be a much more sensible way to work out how to pay outsourced workers. Research the local market.

          For example, here in Turkey, 72% of teachers have a second or third job and some of them accept as little as $5 an hour to teach in private schools (we're talking trained, professional educators here). An English native speaker with no teaching qualifications or experience can walk into a job and get three or four times that rate (a weird anomaly where black economy workers actually do very well).

          One word of warning, though. It can be hard to get reliable information from some countries on economic data. The big scandal in Turkey at the moment is the appearance of 6 million new voters just before the local elections.

          It seems the government massaged the workforce figures downwards a while back so the income per capita rose rapidly, creating an economic "miracle". Now they need more voters so . . .

          Martin
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        • Profile picture of the author Colin Evans
          Originally Posted by Alice Seba View Post

          Why not 2 people at $4/hour? ;-) Still very affordable.
          I'd pay one person $4 per hour as long as they also supervised 2 others at $2 per hour
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        • Profile picture of the author Chris Grable
          Originally Posted by Alice Seba View Post

          Why not 2 people at $4/hour? ;-) Still very affordable.
          Alice... we currently have a very good example of folks following your, very well intentioned, train of thought.... The end result is folks in an auto manufacturing job making an average of $78.00 per hour to do something that requires only a modicum of knowledge, skills or abilities. 20 or so years of prosperity is about to come crasing down and there might not be any way to stop it.

          Inflation occurs in both wages and salary...They are inter-related and equally bad. The only thing worse than high inflation is high inflation that happens rapidly.
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          • Profile picture of the author adamv
            Wow! I'm shocked to see that this thread is still going. The view points expressed on the first page were repeated over and over. How many times can we all say the exact same thing? With a few exceptions, this whole thread is 150 posts that could have easily been done in 15. It must be because people are commenting without reading the other comments first. What other reason is there for so many people saying the exact same thing?

            "It's exploitation"
            "It's two people freely coming to an agreement"
            "$2 = $15-$20 in the Philipines"

            There, I think those three lines just covered the same as about 80 or 90 posts here.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Chris,
            The end result is folks in an auto manufacturing job making an average of $78.00 per hour
            Gong! Bad Chris. No biscuit.

            The average hourly wage of a worker at an auto plant owned by the Big 3 is $28. Not $78, or the $70 that Sorkin claimed in the Times, or any of the other ridiculous numbers being quoted by the brain-free media.

            That number was waved into existence by Chrysler, when it totaled the wages, benefits, government-required labor-associated costs, and the costs of pensions and health benefits of all current and retired employees, and dividing it by the number of hours worked.


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            • Profile picture of the author Chris Grable
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Chris,Gong! Bad Chris. No biscuit.

              The average hourly wage of a worker at an auto plant owned by the Big 3 is $28. Not $78, or the $70 that Sorkin claimed in the Times, or any of the other ridiculous numbers being quoted by the brain-free media.

              That number was waved into existence by Chrysler, when it totaled the wages, benefits, government-required labor-associated costs, and the costs of pensions and health benefits of all current and retired employees, and dividing it by the number of hours worked.


              Paul
              I hope you are right Paul!!! I tried to research it ... but all Google will give me is a bunch of crap and nothing that is even remotely authoritative... at least not that I could find in 3 minutes of exhaustive searching <snarky grin>... In either case, I stand by my point. Paying high salaries... just be cause you can.... has limited short term benefits and many ill effects longterm.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jon Alexander
    I would have had a problem with it previously, but now I've automated it, I get articles for ... like 2 cents each, so shelling out $2 an hour to me sounds like a HELL of a lot!

    It doesn't really matter what local conditions are, unfortunately, the internet is global, and the work follows the path of least expense. For the sensible, that means automation, autoblogging, that kind of thing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Preben Frenning
    I think many people here are forgetting that you even TRAIN the workers, and pay them for learning. - Something they can take advantage of later anyways.

    If a great marketer teaches a guy in the philipines about building his business, and paying he more as he gets better at it, he will eventually have the possibilty to start HIS OWN BUSINESS, and then do exactly the same with fellow people in his country.
    That is, teaching them about internet marketing, as well as they make a living learning, and experiencing at the cost of the one they are working for.

    Then it goes around in that circle, and the people in the west actually help the economy in Asia. - And it's a win-win situation!

    There are of course a few ethical dilemmas etc., But I think the benefit is a lot greater than that. Also morally.

    - Preben
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  • Profile picture of the author Preben Frenning
    I forgot to mention transportation, and flexible lifestyle.
    Heck, even someone who was doomed for losing their legs could get paid better than his healthy friends for working from home!

    Another thing...paying them a starting wage of $4, for training included
    IS NOT RIGHT!!!

    That would be like giving them money, and is extremely unfair.

    Even if we could easily afford to pay that kind of money, it would simply be plain wrong. At least in the beginning.

    But once they have learned a bit, and you feel they are becoming a great
    resource to you, and you think they are better at doing internet marketing
    than most filipino's, THEN you could pay them the $4.

    So when other filipinos ask them what they make, they say:
    "Hey, I make $4/hour working for a guy IN THE STATES! - Because
    I'm great at internet marketing! - Which he also taught me! - You should talk to him if interested"

    Simply giving them $4/hours because we can is just plain wrong.
    That would decrease the value and willingness to work locally, and
    would even ruin their long-term economy.

    It would also increase the gap between rich and poor, which I believe is
    already quite big.

    At least I think it's something to keep in mind when doing this.

    P.S. eireen from the Filipines see it as we are HELPING the filipinos,
    and she is grateful.

    The last thing I want to emphasize is that they have no experience,other
    than they can speak english.

    We litterarily take them under our wings, and pay them for it as well!
    - That might sound a bit too great, but I'm sure you get the point.

    - Preben

    P.S. This is just my opinion. You might have a different one, and that's ok =)
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  • Profile picture of the author novasoft
    Originally Posted by doop View Post

    I just received an e-mail from a marketer..... check out the video for yourself here:

    Replace Myself | HomePage

    The guy is paying workers in the Philippines about $1-$2 PER HOUR to create his "Ultimate IM Lifestyle".

    Now I'm all for outsourcing - in fact i wouldn't be nearly as successful online if it wasn't for outsourcing.

    BUT WE HAVE TO DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE....

    Now my question is - Is this crossing the line of ethical employment?!

    Is he "exploiting" these people....?

    Its not just the Philippines, I got a captcha typer from the U.S who types 1000 captchas for me for $2, would you believe that.

    I got this lady from getafreelancer, who speaks perfect English and seems educated, and she said she was disabled etc so I upped her to $5 per 1000, but the point is that its a free market and if a person is happy with that amount then I guess its ok.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Brian
    The minimum wage in the Philippines is about $8/day, yes per day not per hour. Those who receives this kind of pay are those with the most modest jobs, not the office desk type of jobs / computer literate requirements.

    I tell you this minimum wage people are barely making ends meet. The cost of living in the Philippines are not really that cheap if you weigh it to the minimum wage. A decent 3x/day meal for a family of three is not enough for the minimum wager. The bottom line is: I think the minimum wage in the Philippines itself is more unethical than the $2/hr rate of that outsourcing site.
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  • Profile picture of the author X
    I was shocked the first time I saw John
    put a gun to one these guy's head,
    forcing them to work for $2.00 per hour.

    Honestly, I can't believe people work
    jobs for $10, 15, 20 per hour. Not when
    I can send out an 8 line email and make
    that every 10 minutes regardless of
    whether I'm working, sitting on the
    toilet, taking a hike or sleeping.

    Nobody forces anyone to work for that
    and I've been told from Filipino's that
    $90 per month is the average income.

    $2 per hour, or $300 per month is a very
    nice living and I think most are very
    grateful for the work.

    It's not unethical at all. It's not harming
    anyone and it's very likely helping. Is it
    exploitation that someone who lives in
    Texas, generally, is paid less than someone
    would be paid who lives in NYC?

    It's all relative and most Texans would
    argue they have a higher quality of life
    even if wages are lower because the
    cost of living is lower.

    X

    PS - John Jonas is a genius and I'll be
    joining his program.
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Bruno
    hmmmm.... interesting I just brought on another full time employee about 2 weeks ago for $1.25 hr and they are estatic.

    They would think I'm a god to bump their pay to $2-$3 hr.

    Frank Bruno
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      I would support someones feelings of ethics, if they are genuine.

      Unless you buy A-L-L your personal products from ETHICAL manufacturers who pay a decent wage, (good luck), don't point fingers.

      Anyone who buys Nikies and shop at Wal-Mart and other related type goods are at least doing two things:

      1) supporting slave labor and almost inhuman work conditions

      2) eventually putting yourself, your economy and your areas economy out of business, what business in your area can compete with $2/hr labor? Relocation of that job and labor is inevitable .

      So we should not complain to our government when we help the problem. Saying I don't have time to know where everything I buy comes or reasonably deniable ignorance is no excuse, I'm as guilty as everyone else.

      From who picks your fruit and vegetables in the field, to everything else, we support it with our dollars, knowingly or not.

      Very few of us, if any do due diligence of ethical products we buy from raw material stage to end product, not to mention union made products. We simply won't buy it.

      Ethical product A)-with ethical labor from raw material to end: $30.00

      UnEthical product B)-with slave labor and inhuman/unsafe working conditions: $4.00

      Wal-Mart owners and the like are Billionaires because of our choice, don't deny we would not and are not buying B.

      The sales and labor relocations don't lie.

      Just live with the consequences when the world ecomony continues to spiral and collapse, because most companies are looking to relocate and pay desperate people in the jungle somewhere $.10 and hour....keep finding new, lower paying jobs until it collapse, never being able to retire, have some entreprenur success until money gets so tight, that even marketers start falling by the wasteside like the banks and mortagage companies.

      Who made money in The Depression?

      In the Depression, at least their was still industrial revolution, manufacturing,innovation and expansion, jobs created.

      That's not going to happen again.

      Even if NEW technology was discovered, why pay someone in your area $20.00 an hour or more when I can go to some mudhut residence and pay .03 cents an hour and be considered a hero there, with the blessing of the goverment and diplomatic immunity status, a celebrity. That's if they even have a government.

      If I was a greedy, self-centered , all about the money and numbers,period, type of employer in the 21st century and beyond, why would I EVER go to a progressive country for labor when I can go to India, China,and probably somebody on Mars who is gladly willing to work for .05 cents an hour in the most unsafe and worst human condition they will tolerate or can legally get away with?

      The 13 th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author Sean Hoffman
    Someone has to be the bottom feeder.
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  • Profile picture of the author matthewd
    A little late to this, but take a look at the graph here: PayScale Philippines - All People in All Surveys Salary, Average Salaries

    It shows that a freaking RN makes a little over PHP 100,000/year which comes out to a little over $2,000 USD/year.

    Now, let's say this guys outsourcers work at $2 USD for him full time all year long... they are making over $4,000 USD to do it... which is twice what a Registered Nurse in their country makes.

    Just because it is low pay to us does not mean it is taking advantage of them... they are making good money relative to where they are.
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  • Profile picture of the author OnlineMasterMind
    Originally Posted by doop View Post

    I just received an e-mail from a marketer..... check out the video for yourself here:

    Replace Myself | HomePage

    The guy is paying workers in the Philippines about $1-$2 PER HOUR to create his "Ultimate IM Lifestyle".

    Now I'm all for outsourcing - in fact i wouldn't be nearly as successful online if it wasn't for outsourcing.

    BUT WE HAVE TO DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE....

    Now my question is - Is this crossing the line of ethical employment?!

    Is he "exploiting" these people....?
    A little ironic when a socialist ends up promoting a capitalist.

    I think John now owes you a xmas card.
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  • Profile picture of the author picus
    Well, it depends of the other person's condition. Imagine a guy that has no job, has to pay medicine, food, etc. His only way of living is a digital service. If he agrees, it's better $2 than nothing.
    Of course I would not pay that low to an outsorcer, but the market is so competitive now that things have changed.
    For instance, I charge 7 cents per word to translate technical documents, most of my competitors charge at least 10 c/w.

    Regards!
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  • Profile picture of the author chrisburton
    Banned
    i guess it depends on how much the average person makes over there.. im not familiar with that so i cant really answer.
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  • Profile picture of the author chrisburton
    Banned
    the other thing is if its right to continue for a country to outsource when so many people here are unemployed. Theres many pros and cons.
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  • Profile picture of the author napoleonfirst
    Well, in many countries this is ethical because of the unemployment rate.
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  • Profile picture of the author kettlewell
    I've used coders from Vietnam and they were totally ecstatic that they won a bid on Rentacoder for ~5-7/hour for a job that would have cost me ~$50-75 here in the States.... They were HAPPY! and so was I. If two parties, from two different cultures and circumstances can come together and both be happy, I think that is a win/win - In the end, over time, I think that this will equalize the payment structure world wide so that this sort of a payment/arbitrage gap won't exist, but while it does exist, there can't be anything unethical if no one is harmed, and everyone is making fair wage (from local perspective)
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Ayres
    I have just had an article written for me for $1.50 and he is willing to do 20 for $20 and the guy is in UK.

    I don't feel guilty and the articles are great
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    • Profile picture of the author viktor
      Originally Posted by SpudDS View Post

      I have just had an article written for me for $1.50 and he is willing to do 20 for $20 and the guy is in UK.

      I don't feel guilty and the articles are great

      Me too. Ten 500 word articles for $30, and the writer is from Britain.
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      • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
        Funny, funny people, making ourselves righteous and " this is the best and most honest I can be, as far as I can see."

        So, if a guy was starving for 3 weeks ,drinking muddy water, you come along eating an orange and you "graciously" give him a few orange peels and seeds to munch on, hey, he was doing worse before I came along.

        Yeah, give you the key to Saint Peters gate, you giving creature ,you. LOL.

        "Well, that impoverished place, .50 cents is like $20 there, its all relative."

        If that's what makes you sleep at night, if you believe that's "what Jesus" would do, have comfortable sleep...., I really, really mean that.

        If you ever find yourself on a uncharted , deserted island, hours before dying of starvation and some passerby offers you a raw, decomposed rat that was dead in a rat trap for 12 days, and thats all they offered you, remember your sentiments and karma, and eat up, by the way, there's nothing on this small island to make a fire, and passerby ain't offering anything else, either.

        If I , here in the U.S., can CHOOSE to work for $1 per article, the high percentage and likelyhood currently "IS" that I have a multitude of choices, so far. There are other and better options.

        So if a person has NO options, except to starve to death, trapped in a corner with no way out, whatever is offered is a benevolent opportunity?

        Do whatever you want, we all gonna do that anyway, but get off the white horse.

        Your reservation to paradise and humanity is soooooooooooooooooooooo confirmed and locked.

        No, you got the VIP section.

        Box seats next to the BIG MAN, himself, you sweet person, you. :-)

        The 13 th Warrior
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          13,
          So if a person has NO options, except to starve to death, trapped in a corner with no way out, whatever is offered is a benevolent opportunity?
          No. THAT would be exploitation. Like the people mentioned earlier who end up working 8 hours on a second shift to earn $1.

          Painting a picture that doesn't apply, and trying to make people judge the situation as though it does, is dishonest. If you've read through the preceding posts, including those from people who live in the Phillipines, then you know that what you said was inapplicable.


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          • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


            13,No. THAT would be exploitation. Like the people mentioned earlier who end up working 8 hours on a second shift to earn $1.

            Painting a picture that doesn't apply, and trying to make people judge the situation as though it does, is dishonest. If you've read through the preceding posts, including those from people who live in the Phillipines, then you know that what you said was inapplicable.

            Paul
            Inapplicable? You lost me.

            I was only giving an example. You want to argue semantics, you win, I'm out.

            You and I are only one person, and you can do what only you know you can reasonably do.

            When I met people, I try to feel in concert with logic and sincerity whats right for the situation at the time.

            You only see what you can see and I see what I can see, and we both see what we are willingly want to see.

            The 13 th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author Preben Frenning
    Seriously. That was just plain stupid.

    So you're telling us it's better to walk along the dirty road where it sits houndreds of poor Filipinos and suddenly STOP, point your finger at a random boy or girl and say: "Hey. Work for me. I will give you your own car, office and enough money to feed your entire family and buy whatever you like. Here's a steak and some wine to get you started"

    Everything in front of the other Filipino's eyes. You think that gives you better karma?

    Personally I'd rather get a guy who's stepped on a landmine, lost his legs, and whom has no hope to survive, other than his friends and family to work for me for a better wage than his neighbour. - Who is semi-middleclass and makes $1.50/hr working 10 hour shifts.

    Really, it's not fair to pay a random asian man or woman four times the minimum wage for being trained as well as working for you.

    Am I the only one who thinks this?

    I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but this really bothers me. - So don't get mad at me here =P

    This is a really sensitive and provocative topic, but it's interesting as well.

    - Preben
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by Preben Frenning View Post


      Seriously. That was just plain stupid.

      So you're telling us it's better to walk along the dirty road where it sits houndreds of poor Filipinos and suddenly STOP, point your finger at a random boy or girl and say: "Hey. Work for me. I will give you your own car, office and enough money to feed your entire family and buy whatever you like. Here's a steak and some wine to get you started"
      Stupid?!?

      Yeah, exactly, I totally agree, " IF " the above illustration is accurate.

      How about this? How about NOT playing stupid and acting blind to justify the means to the end.

      It's all about BALANCE. So there is NO such thing as a middle ground, a happy medium?

      Simply can't stretch the imagination to something pragmatic, and rational, for whats needed or could be of some real use at the time.

      Here's an example: Some dude came up to me, asking for money. I said money for what?
      He said he was hungry. So I said, if I buy you some food, you're cool? He said yep.

      So I bought him a meal , that I, myself,would've eaten had he refused it.

      Should I have bought him Lobster and Steak? No, not even rich people do that everyday. Most folks, rich or poor eat at regular places , on average, like everyone else.

      I looked at him eat it, and it was smelling so good, I ordered the SAME thing for myself.

      Balance. Not in necessarily extremes all the time, one side or the other.

      There is a fair, reasonable solution without the extremes, if one but took the time. But if you consider a that a waste of time, then that is your belief.

      If you simply do what you honestly can do within reason, and its from the sincerest heart, you will find a way.

      Do what your heart and conscious tell you, good or bad, it'll manifest out eventually.

      The 13 th Warrior
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        13,
        How about this? How about NOT playing stupid and acting blind to justify the means to the end. ... There is a fair, reasonable solution without the extremes, if one but took the time. But if you consider a that a waste of time, then that is your belief.
        Wow.

        You have got to be the most sneakily judgmental jack_ss I've seen on here in ages. If you're going to judge someone, have the spine to come right out and do it, instead of trying to hide your bull droppings behind pseudo-rationality.

        What the OP pointed to is actually the equivalent of giving someone the ability to buy that meal for himself, every day. How is that worthy of your pious scorn?


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        • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


          13,Wow.

          You have got to be the most sneakily judgmental jack_ss I've seen on here in ages. If you're going to judge someone, have the spine to come right out and do it, instead of trying to hide your bull droppings behind pseudo-rationality.

          What the OP pointed to is actually the equivalent of giving someone the ability to buy that meal for himself, every day. How is that worthy of your pious scorn?

          Pau
          You may have SOME merit here, as I did not explain myself.

          When I said not playing stupid, It was not personally toward anyone or personal,

          2) Playing stupid meant only to question one's self whether one is examining the situation as is, what one would like it to be, one's limitations or boundaries to see based on one's attitude, or is refusing to concede possiblities in the quest for the best solution.

          So I can see why you would say "sneakly judgemental", except , to be fair, any opinion expressed here has its roots or conclusion to some judgement, based on belief , experience, what have you.

          Calling for the search of a happy medium or middle ground "pseudo-rationality-bull droppings " only expresses your opinion of this strategy, which appears to be ridiculous in your eyes, is unworthy of mention.

          Whatever your definition of exploitation is, that is yours. Giving someone the ability to buy that meal himself is a worthy deed. "Giving someone the ability".....ability defined by whose standards and ethics? Exploitation or opportunity? Its your own call. I gave my example of a good call and a bad call.

          And whats wrong with attempting to be pious? I should hope everyone has that goal.

          And yes, if I see or feel something is exploitive, until I "see" that my view was inapplicable for the situation mentioned or wrong, it is worthy of scorn. And not everyone see's at the same time, or ever. Maybe in the future I might "get" that you were right, and maybe not.

          Your blowin up here makes me doubt the same change of view may happen for you.

          The child labor of the 1920's or so, before unions and labor laws were not worthy of pious scorn? I disagree with your opinion.

          Then, you call me a jack-ass. You might be right on that too, but by your hair trigger explosion on this post, you wear the same size almost identical mule shoe as I do, so if I have any carrots left, I'll give you some with no hard feelings, after all, birds of a feather forum together.
          Your blast here tells me your stall is right next to mine.

          The 13 th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author Preben Frenning
    Agreed Paul.

    If $2 is more than a regular job in the Filipines, then it's GREAT PAY for getting paid for training as well.

    I mean, everyone have heard the saying about giving a man a fishing rod, vs. giving him a fish and feeding him for a day.
    And That's EXACTLY what you are doing if you hire and train someone over there. You are giving that person a "fishing rod"!

    I think it's way more fair to start at for example $1.5/hr if that's above the minimum over there, and increasing it as they get better, so they actually increase in knowledge etc., and paying more is fair to the others who doesn't work for someone abroad.

    It's simply not fair to pay them more "just because you can" when you consider the other people.

    But I can agree that this is a quite individual topic. However, I would feel great knowing that I supported a Filipino by giving him work, training and possibly a better future.

    I have no difficulties with that myself, as I almost only see benefits for doing this, and it really makes sense to me.

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    • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
      Also, just to add some informations in regard to hiring filipino freelancers:

      - Even here in the capital, it is not unusual for the internet to be down for hours on end, sometimes even a whole day. Expect it and account for it when dealing with deadlines (I found that one out by experiencing it myself, thank you).

      - Filipinos love holidays. So much they have one almost every day. Ok, that wasn't true, but still, there are lot of holidays here where people will want to take often a few days off to visit family and relatives, especially if they live around the capital and the rest of their sibblings are still in the province.

      - Employers here are required to provide a "13th month pay" every December, which is a bonus at least equivalent to one month's salary to be paid to all full-time employees. Of course, working with freelancers make that one optional, but I would encourage anyone to keep it in mind nonetheless.

      Hope this helps
      Alex.
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    • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
      Originally Posted by Preben Frenning View Post


      If $2 is more than a regular job in the Filipines, then it's GREAT PAY for getting paid for training as well.

      I mean, everyone have heard the saying about giving a man a fishing rod, vs. giving him a fish and feeding him for a day.

      Perhaps I am wrong here. Maybe I am. I just fly off on a frenzy when "exploitation" is a possiblity.

      $2.00 an hour, if thats what is talked about, is about what it was in the U.S. around the 1960's and early '70's, and if you are talking about similar conditions, work and the like, the U.S. then as in the phillipines now, then you are correct.

      If you are talking in relativity, phillipine economy about 40 years behind, but parallel, then you are right.

      The 13 th Warrior
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      • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
        I thought this was a capitalists forum?

        What happened to "making money"?

        It may be hard for us "First Worlders" to imagine...

        But $2US per hour is good money to a VAST MAJORITY of the global population.
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        • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
          Originally Posted by Eric Lorence View Post


          But $2US per hour is good money to a VAST MAJORITY of the global population.

          In this case , inapplicable of what I said might be correct.

          So here is my other question.

          How bad does it have to get here before outsourcing labor is no longer necessary?

          Are most people in schools and colleges in the U.S. training for a job that won't be there or the money they expect won't be there or improve in that industry at anytime in the future?

          How many times does a person retrain and start over again.

          I can't tell you how many older people I see lately, retirement ages, working jobs that are supposed to be for teens.

          So if the old model of what made America's economy no longer applicable, I see no consenses from any leadership of what the new model for success is, except places like this warrior forum.

          Get good grades, keep your nose clean, get a good job, work hard on that same job for years, get your 30 year watch, retire on your pension and go fishing , has been outdated for years, I guess.

          Yet, why are they still pushing this program in education?

          The 13 th Warrior
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          • Profile picture of the author sam12six
            Originally Posted by The 13 th Warrior View Post

            In this case , inapplicable of what I said might be correct.

            So here is my other question.

            How bad does it have to get here before outsourcing labor is no longer necessary?

            Are most people in schools and colleges in the U.S. training for a job that won't be there or the money they expect won't be there or improve in that industry at anytime in the future?

            How many times does a person retrain and start over again.

            I can't tell you how many older people I see lately, retirement ages, working jobs that are supposed to be for teens.

            So if the old model of what made America's economy no longer applicable, I see no consenses from any leadership of what the new model for success is, except places like this warrior forum.

            Get good grades, keep your nose clean, get a good job, work hard on that same job for years, get your 30 year watch, retire on your pension and go fishing , has been outdated for years, I guess.

            Yet, why are they still pushing this program in education?

            The 13 th Warrior
            In this particular observation, you're right. The old school--->Job for life--->retire from that job and live your golden years model doesn't work and hasn't worked for several decades. The fact of the matter is that this IS exploitation. When you get people who's only thought is 'get a job', they will do anything you say to get or keep a job (which is making a fortune for somebody else). This makes it easier for those in control to stay in control.

            Now the freelancers we're talking about here are stepping out of that role and working for themselves. Granted, they're still making someone a lot more money than they are costing but they are doing better for themselves than the vast majority of the people around them. Exploitation that's not.

            For those saying you should pay more than the people are happy to make, I can only imagine that you must be a pleasure to negotiate with:

            I'll sell you this fine vehicle with only 100000 miles on it for $7000 cash.
            No!! You'll take $10000 or I'm walking!
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              13,
              And whats wrong with attempting to be pious?
              Nope. I go for pompous, not pious. I've always considered it to be in extremely poor taste to try and shove one's religious beliefs down someone else's throat. Regardless of the religion.
              Calling for the search of a happy medium or middle ground "pseudo-rationality-bull droppings " only expresses your opinion of this strategy, which appears to be ridiculous in your eyes, is unworthy of mention.
              Bullpuckey.

              You weren't suggesting someone look for a middle-ground. You were suggesting that anyone who disagreed with your approach (which you call a middle-ground, while ridiculing anyone with perspective) is extreme, and considers trying to find one a waste of time.

              Re-read your own posts, with an eye to some self-honesty, and you'll see what I mean.


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              • Profile picture of the author The 13th Warrior
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


                13,Nope. I go for pompous, not pious. I've always considered it to be in extremely poor taste to try and shove one's religious beliefs down someone else's throat. Regardless of the religion.Bullpuckey.
                Pious in the sense of attaining a higher level of virtue, whether failing or succeeding. Your statement,"I'VE ALWAYS considered it..." portends you latched on to the religious meaning,as though there is none other definition or use of that word. Stating my view is not shoving it down anyone's throat. Seems you are judging in your perception and perspective and are quick to cut someone to the knees by your "bullpuckey" stance...you are doing what you accused me of, judge , jury and executioner by your standards......Bullpuckey indeed.


                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


                You weren't suggesting someone look for a middle-ground. You were suggesting that anyone who disagreed with your approach (which you call a middle-ground, while ridiculing anyone with perspective) is extreme, and considers trying to find one a waste of time.

                Re-read your own posts, with an eye to some self-honesty, and you'll see what I mean.

                Me-thinks you need to re-read my post, and try not to look for secret meanings. It was in response to someone else's post that I ascertained, rightly or wrongly, that he was using as an example "either" "or" philosophy with no other possible grey areas.

                I maintained stating my opinion, and suggested nor implyed that disagreeing with my opinion
                is anything other than your choice of belief. I ridiculed no one , personally, thats your read.

                You have an opinion about my opinion, and I yours. So what? No forums, no opinion, someone will always disagree.

                Now, you want to drop the Hammer and Sickle of totalitarianism on what you percieve my opinion to be , with extreme prejudice and malice by the terms, "bullpuckey" and the like, doing that which you are accusing me of.

                You said it yourself, you go for pompous. Pompous reflects the negative characteristics and misuse of ego. No one uses that word to reflect good. You say its good for you. So you are stating who you are and your attitude.

                You are ready to shoot first and ask questions later, come to snap judgements, reading into things as a direct attack on you or a person, I think you need to re-read and seriously do some intense self-honesty on yourself, though the way you snap and proudly claim and posses the word pompous, that would be impercievable. Ready to fire.....you percieve yourself and your attack as a pious defender.

                I can garner nowhere in your tone of postings that you may even consider any possibility , even playing the devils avocate ,that you are incorrect. EXACTLY what you accussed me of. That is not healthy at all along with a vigilante approach to others views you do not agree with.

                Knocking me off a percieved soap box, so you can stand on it. Plenty of hypocracy to go around.

                Your kangaroo court style, fire and pitchfork mob like rush trial and snap sentencing of my post and ready to be a prosecuter without any considering the defense side , ready to convict and execute speaks more to who you are.....you are implementing what you accuse me of while you type.

                The 13 th Warrior
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    I know many Filipinos. I used to date a hot Filipina ex-actress (she starred in a soap for a year there and yes, this is completely irrelevant). I know that Philippines has had a poor economy for some time now, and that is why Filipinos are becoming like the Chinese in that you can find them anywhere in the world as they seek greener pastures. It is a new diaspora but for Filipinos. Anyway, $2 an hour is not so bad for them. You have to take into account cost of living which is much lower in their country. It's akin to paying minimum wage as the GDP in Philippines is less than $4000 a year and working at $2 an hour for a 40 hour work week is a bit more than $4000 a year. So, knowing that, is it unethical? I don't think so. Just smart. Certainly not generous and very cheap and thrifty, but not unethical.
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    • Profile picture of the author adamv
      Originally Posted by redicelander View Post

      I know many Filipinos. I used to date a hot Filipina ex-actress (she starred in a soap for a year there and yes, this is completely irrelevant). I know that Philippines has had a poor economy for some time now, and that is why Filipinos are becoming like the Chinese in that you can find them anywhere in the world as they seek greener pastures. It is a new diaspora but for Filipinos. Anyway, $2 an hour is not so bad for them. You have to take into account cost of living which is much lower in their country. It's akin to paying minimum wage as the GDP in Philippines is less than $4000 a year and working at $2 an hour for a 40 hour work week is a bit more than $4000 a year. So, knowing that, is it unethical? I don't think so. Just smart. Certainly not generous and very cheap and thrifty, but not unethical.
      You reiterated a point that has already made countless times in this thread, but if you just wanted to brag about dating a hot Filipina actress I can respect that.
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  • Profile picture of the author gareth
    Lets say you are a newbie and want to outsource.

    You need articles, press releases, help with sites, video uploading etc.

    To get anywhere in a hurry you need more than one assistant. So if you are still working your self for say $20 per hour and hire 5 people that leaves you with a meager $10 per hour to live on while you build your business.

    Are you gunna have a problem with paying $2 per hour looking at it this way ?
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
    I'll try to say something that hasn't been said in this thread.

    If I travel to one of these poor countries and the hotel charges $10 per night and the restaurant charges $3 for a steak dinner, am I exploiting the owners of those businesses by paying their stated prices?

    Or are low prices only "bad" when they are for labor?
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  • Profile picture of the author karensg
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author davezan
      Originally Posted by karensg View Post

      in the bible it says: Torah teaches that "[t]he wages of a laborer shall not remain with you until morning" (Leviticus 19:13) and "[y]ou shall not abuse a needy and destitute laborer, whether a fellow Israelite or a stranger in one of the communities of your land" (Deuteronomy 24:14-15).
      Well, if one is going to quote a portion from the Bible, how about the parable
      of the vineyard workers? That had a different intended meaning, though.

      IMHO, this thread ought to be locked.
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    • Profile picture of the author X
      What's ironic Karen, is that $2.00 per hour, by
      all accounts, is a livable wage in the Philippines -
      a wage that's above the average standard of
      living. In fact, $2 per hour is more than many
      nurses and physicians are paid:

      "The average salary of a nurse in the provinces is about $120, sometimes lower. The average salary a doctor in the Philippines gets is between $300 to $800 a month."

      Bulatlat - The Philippines's alternative weekly magazine
      PayScale Philippines - Philippines Country Wages, Hourly Wage Rate
      (PhP is Philippino Peso, currently exchanging at 48 per dollar - so
      100 PhP per hour (average pay for a nurse in the Philippines) is a little
      over $2.00.

      The minimum wage in the US, this self-gloating
      "Christian nation" is $6.55. I don't know about
      you, but I couldn't live on that as a single
      person in the United States - never mind support
      a family. Welfare would be a more cost-effective
      choice.

      So tell me Karen, have you boycotted the local
      supermarket, gas station, drug store, restaurants,
      fast food joints, coffee shops, etc, that pay their
      employees the minimum unlivable wage?

      Think about it.

      Personally, I'm paying a part-timer $250 per month
      for 20 hours per week. She's at home with her
      family, she's happy and she works the hours she
      wants to work. She'll also receive twice as many
      paid holidays as we take in the states, and enjoy
      13th month pay on top of that.

      So is that unethical?

      With a little education and consideration, I think
      you'll agree everyone's coming out ahead.




      Originally Posted by karensg View Post

      in the bible it says: Torah teaches that "[t]he wages of a laborer shall not remain with you until morning" (Leviticus 19:13) and "[y]ou shall not abuse a needy and destitute laborer, whether a fellow Israelite or a stranger in one of the communities of your land" (Deuteronomy 24:14-15).
      1. Create a workplace environment that promotes a culture of support and respect for all employees;
      2. Systematically review and assess on an ongoing basis their existing employment procedures and practices
      and, when necessary, develop plans to bring their employment policies in line with existing Union
      recommendations for fair and equitable treatment for all employees;
      3. To the greatest extent feasible:
      a. Provide benefits for full-time employees such as health insurance and retirement support; and
      b. When outsourcing, seek out businesses that pay a living wage, provide benefits for their full-time workers
      and engage in fair and ethical employment practices.
      I feel that 2.00 a hour is not right any where in this day and age
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  • Profile picture of the author Preben Frenning
    Oh please.
    $2 an hour is a lot to MANY people in parts of the world.
    If you can have them work 2 hours less than they use to, and make almost twice the amount of money, then it's great.

    And if you think that is too little, then you simple can't outsource to the Filipines, because you have too many ethical dilemmas.
    - Since then, paying them $4 would not be fair either, because they would make way more than their friends and family, simply out of luck, and not skill.

    - Preben
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  • Here in Costa Rica $2 hour is the norm. A
    ton of folks from nicaragua come here
    because that's a lot more then they could
    ever make back in their own country.

    Then I heard from a buddy in Saudi Arabia
    that he even has a water boy who brings
    water to folks in the office...his only real
    job...and he gets like $2 a day...and he
    is happy with that...because at least he
    has a job...and many folks from where
    he is from don't.

    It's all relative...

    Which is my point
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Chris,

      I need to correct myself. $28/hr is the average base wage. (I make that mistake often in this particular discussion, and end up correcting it.) When you add in overtime and the like, it comes out to closer to $39/hr.

      Still a long way from the $70-$80 bandied about in the press lately, but it's important to be as accurate as possible when talking about numbers.
      Paying high salaries... just because you can.... has limited short term benefits and many ill effects longterm.
      I tend to agree with that, as stated.

      There are other reasons to pay more, of course. For example, if you get someone who is especially good and you want to keep them working for you, paying them more than the market rate is one excellent way to make that happen.


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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Grable
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        There are other reasons to pay more, of course. For example, if you get someone who is especially good and you want to keep them working for you, paying them more than the market rate is one excellent way to make that happen.


        Paul

        Absolutely! Market and performance based rationale for doing what works best.... not someone's notion (probably misguided) of what's right.

        Thanks for the discussion Paul! It's time for me to sit back and watch the rest of these folks argue the unarguable.

        OBTW... Congratulatons on 12 years of TalkBiz!
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  • Profile picture of the author Preben Frenning
    If we are going to follow the bible, I think it's more for helping people in other countries, than it is against it.

    Well, we make mony from them, they get a steady living from us,we take the risk, we make more money.

    In the long run, if we pay them fair, it will start a funnell of job opportunities in that country as they get educated enough, and make enough money to start up themselves.

    Then they will do exactly the same as us, and train their fellow citizens.

    Now I haven't read the bible, but I doubt it is against what I mentioned above.

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  • Profile picture of the author Preben Frenning
    If she is good, and you think she should be paid that much, compared to others in the Filipines, then $4.40 is good.

    Say she gets the job done twice as fast as the regular $2 worker, and that what she does is good. Then she deserves to get paid well =)
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  • Profile picture of the author the-CPA-guy
    There is nothing ethical or unethical part. In some country things are cheaper and so even earning $2 a day [yes $2/day] can be enough for 3 meals a day.And in this case he is being paid $2/hr means $16/day [considering 10 to 6 job] and it can be a good earning for an unemployed dude for 3rd world country.
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  • Profile picture of the author radicals
    I am from a developing country, and I know for a fact that income is reletive to your expenses. This is also economics 101, and human behaviour. The more people will earn, the more they will spend, and the more they spend the higher inflation is. The higher inflation is the more cost of living increases and the more they will need to earn. Therefore the situation in the philipines may not stay static, if most of them gets employment this way. That is definately NOT Morally wrong. One cannot project ones own realtity onto another and then judge that situation. Paying too much may also be unethical, because you are messing with the markets in that country and creates expectations, and then less people would get opportunities as business owners looks elsewhere.

    When quoting from the Bible one needs to view things in context as well. I think the quote earlier is out of context, since this is not "abuse" but rather supporting that economy at the expense of ones own economy. The reason why I say this is because I am in a developing country, and I have experience with this. One can make a damn good living on $1500pm in my country, because with that you can almost eat out every day of the week. For example the most expensive meal would be a 250gram Fillet Steak at a restaurant and will you only about $8. Monthly groceries for two would amount to approximately $250pm in my country.

    Paying people market related wages relative to their country is the right thing to do and probably more right than wrong.

    Also consider that money is only a commodity, nothing more. People created it and still do. Thus people decide what the value of this commodity is, and if it is $2 per hour, then it is $2 per hour, nothing more, nothing less.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Chris,
      OBTW... Congratulatons on 12 years of TalkBiz!
      Thanks.

      Hey... what are you doing reading that on a Sunday? Go watch football or something.


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  • Profile picture of the author DennisM
    It's completely ridiculous to think that outsourcing is unethical. In case some of you don't realize, this is a WORLD economy. Due to technology, it's obviously made it easier to outsource globally.

    Why not allow others in this "global" economy earn a living too? After all, it's only fair. If I can find the help I need for my business and outsourcing makes sense, I'm pulling the trigger and hiring that person(s).

    Dennis
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I think the whole question stems from US companies outsourcing off shore and putting our citizens out of work. Now there is a crisis and the practice is being questioned. There is no way for a person in America to stay competitive at 2 bucks an hour when it costs thousands a month just to survive.

    US businesses which outsource offshore are putting people here out on the streets. Is that ethical? Doesn't matter - corporations don't care. They have one goal - profit at all costs - and if it kills the masses to meet it they will do so - that is what a corporation is. It can only be hoped that small business owners will have more of an equitable mentality and support their own country rather than become so voraciously greedy for gain that they will watch their neighbors starve for an extra buck in their own til.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
      Double post -deleted.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      I think the whole question stems from US companies outsourcing off shore and putting our citizens out of work. Now there is a crisis and the practice is being questioned. There is no way for a person in America to stay competitive at 2 bucks an hour when it costs thousands a month just to survive.

      US businesses which outsource offshore are putting people here out on the streets. Is that ethical? Doesn't matter - corporations don't care. They have one goal - profit at all costs - and if it kills the masses to meet it they will do so - that is what a corporation is. It can only be hoped that small business owners will have more of an equitable mentality and support their own country rather than become so voraciously greedy for gain that they will watch their neighbors starve for an extra buck in their own til.
      Sal, we may never agree on this, but I do respect your point of view.

      In my opinion though, it is completely biased. Is it more ethical to give job to someone in your neighborhood, or someone on the other side of the planet? Of course, you'd be happier to know a relative got that job than a complete stranger, but that's where emotions come in, and emotions clouds logic.

      One worker equals another - we're all human, and we've all got families to take care of and feed. On the other hand, if outsourcing in a different part of the world allows to feed twice the number of people, should we feel bad about losing "our" jobs?

      My father, when he was 58, lost his job at the factory he had worked for for over 20 years. The work was moved to a different province to save on taxes and wages. I'm not even talking about a different country, just a different province.

      Obviously, at 58, there was no way he would find another job soon. The company offered to re-hire him if he decided to move and re-apply for the new factory. Needless to say, he declined the offer. The first 6 months were not without stress for my parents, but it allowed them to reassess their needs and motivations. Now, my father is happily retired and swears he'd never want to go back to the life he used to live back then.

      We have the luck of living in "developed" country, where education is at our fingertips. We are living in the information era, and people have to get on with the change. If your job is taken away, maybe it's time to find something else, a reminder to always seek improvement in all areas of our lives ...
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  • Profile picture of the author fated82
    Putting myself is the business point of view, I think there is nothing wrong with working for $2 an hour. At the end of the day, business means profits and profits comes from high revenue and low costs.
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  • Profile picture of the author philk49
    If we can hire someone in another country for their comparable wage and they are able to live a middle class lifestyle. No harm in that. If we were to pay them $10 or $20 per hour then after they got used to living at that income level we suddenly stopped hiring them it could put a hardship on their family. Shucks that is happening right here in the US with all of the job layoffs.
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  • Profile picture of the author mexiclanboy
    Banned
    you bet he is. he really shouldn't be doing that.
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  • Profile picture of the author jimcal
    In some parts of the world $2.00 an hour is excellent pay. It doesn't seem fair but now we are part of the global economy and the world is a very unfair place sometimes.
    Thanks,
    Jim
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  • Profile picture of the author seye
    ethical or not you will get people that will do this even lower than that, the main thing is that you are giving people reason to live
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  • Profile picture of the author X
    I'm probably overpaying but I just hired someone
    using John Jonas' information. She has a bachelor
    degree, with over 5 years of experience.

    Here's her skill-set from her resume:

    - Have competent skills in Customer Service, Search Engine Optimization
    (SEO), Linkbuilding, Keyword Research & Social Book-marking.

    - Knowledgeable in WordPress, Blogger, HubPages, LiveJournal, ClearBlogs, MyOpera, WetPaint, Facebook, Quizilla, etc.

    - Have proficient knowledge in Advertising, Video Marketing &
    Content Writing.

    - Knowledgeable in Camtasia, Traffic Geyser programs.

    - Have proficient knowledge in all Windows Operating Systems, MS Office
    Programs including: Word, Excel, PPT.

    - Have basic skills in Photo-enhancement application such as: Adobe
    Photoshop CS3 & Dream Weaver.

    - Possess excellent English Communication Skills (both written and oral).

    - Have competent Supervisory skills, Communication Skills Training & Development.

    - Have proficient knowledge in DU/LAN configuration and email clients
    troubleshooting for OS such as Windows (all versions) & Mac OSX.

    What else could I ask for?

    She requested $250 per month for 20 hours per week.

    Note: That's what SHE requested, not what I offered.
    And she seems quite happy. I've seen people on the
    resource John recommends asking for as little as 7000
    Filipino Pesos per month for full-time work - that's about
    $145 per month. That doesn't mean they're going to
    be skilled, but they're out there. Most are asking for
    10,000-20,000 which is $200-400 per month.

    Again, I'm paying on the high end of the scale -
    their scale.

    Anyway, I want to tell you that John's offering
    some great information.

    X
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
    Interesting that nobody wants to touch my question about whether it's OK to pay low asking prices for goods and services from companies when traveling in poorer countries... must be because you can't say that is OK yet still whine about any freely accepted wages being "unethical", at least not and be logically honest.
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  • Profile picture of the author Anthony Smith
    how about forget about exploited people in other countries and do something for your own... just a thought...
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  • Profile picture of the author richdirtygirl
    I got some first hand information about how things work in Philippines about a year ago...

    It was a woman living here in USA that had family there.

    A good monthly income was around $350 for a webmaster job.

    The funny fact was: if you paid more, you could put the life of the person or his/her family at risk. I don't know if she was a liar or not... but what she said was that a bigger income would make them "wealthy" for the locals and they would be at risk of being kidnapped.

    So, here we go again... with the itchy pseudo moral thingy...

    RDG:p
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  • Profile picture of the author steve m
    That is day light robbery, 1/2$ an hour is peanuts I wouldnt have the check to even ask some one to work for me for that... every one wants to pay out as less as they can but that just takes the piss wholesale......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
    $2.00 an hour would be a big raise for a high school teacher in India. According to PayScale - Salary Comparison, Salary Survey, Wages, high school teachers in India earn about 120,000 rupees a year, which is about $2,400 USD a year. That's less than $1.25 an hour.
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  • Profile picture of the author Christian Fox
    No one is forcing them to work for this wage. In the end it is probably a big opportunity for them.

    It's a whole other world over there. With the global economy emerging this type of thing is going to happen more and more.

    Just wait very soon it will be them replacing us and it has already begun with manufacturing in America.
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  • Profile picture of the author Christie Love
    I was just going to post on this very topic. No, I don't think it's ethical to offer someone "slave labor" to work for you. Freelancers have a business too. It's seriously bothers me to see people working for pennies. How would they like it if people bought their products for only a dollar. I don't think they'd be very happy.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
      Originally Posted by Christie Love View Post

      I was just going to post on this very topic. No, I don't think it's ethical to offer someone "slave labor" to work for you. Freelancers have a business too. It's seriously bothers me to see people working for pennies. How would they like it if people bought their products for only a dollar. I don't think they'd be very happy.
      If a high school teacher in a certain country makes $1.20 an hour and you pay them $2.00 to work for you, is that a slave wage? Of course it isn't. In fact, it's a very good salary.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kirk Ward
      Originally Posted by Christie Love View Post

      I was just going to post on this very topic. No, I don't think it's ethical to offer someone "slave labor" to work for you. Freelancers have a business too. It's seriously bothers me to see people working for pennies. How would they like it if people bought their products for only a dollar. I don't think they'd be very happy.
      Would you rather that I hire someone else and the person who wanted to work for $2/hr doesn't get anything?

      And then there's the true question we all have to face ...

      What's in it for me?
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    • Profile picture of the author Frank Ayres
      Originally Posted by Christie Love View Post

      I was just going to post on this very topic. No, I don't think it's ethical to offer someone "slave labor" to work for you. Freelancers have a business too. It's seriously bothers me to see people working for pennies. How would they like it if people bought their products for only a dollar. I don't think they'd be very happy.
      So you would rather see someone go hungry or lose their home?

      You are only thinking of your own situation and not others.
      In some countries to pay someone $2 an hour is a very good wage.
      If someone is happy to work for $2 an hour why deny them work because of some silly opinion about what people should be paid.
      People should be paid what they ask for and what they are worth, if they are worth more then they will get more.

      I took on a writer a year ago she only wanted $2.50 an article, i gave her $3 as i liked her work and now i pay her $4 an article
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  • Profile picture of the author zachary0611
    I live in Charlotte, NC and id would work for free for a job that would give me marketable skills that I could put on my resume
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  • Profile picture of the author Arine Mark
    It's unethical for me. Especially for exploiting the income gap between places. Furthermore that site blatantly attacking those points. I feel happy though reading all positive comments from you guys.
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  • Profile picture of the author paco88
    $2 is fine. i live in manila, you cant compare the living conditions in the usa or uk to here. your taxes work there, you have good roads, health benefits, pensions, etc..its much cheaper to live here, if you have a pension of 1500 / 2000 dollars here youll live very well...i have a blog about cost of living in the philippines in fact thats my next project as there are so many american eu, canadian retirees coming to the philipppines with thier pensions, - i rent a 5 bedroom house and it only costs 380 dollars a month
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  • Profile picture of the author jnapier
    Here's a question: Is it ethical to Pay someone 40% more in one geographic area vs. another? Like California vs. Ohio? What about Competition? Over 10 years ago I had to pay $10 an hour for restaurant workers, Why? Competition - Wendys, Arbys, Kroger, McDonalds and many more were all looking for people to work.

    Jay NaPier
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    • Profile picture of the author adamv
      I don't know why this thread was revived because it seems that both sides of the argument have been covered extensively.

      I don't think it matters where anyone lives. If person "A" wants to hire someone and person "B" wants the job and they agree on a price, how can the amount they both agree on be considered unethical?

      Some people will argue that $2 per hour is taking advantage of someone. Others will argue that, if the person accepts the job it can't possibly be unethical and still others will argue that $2 per hour in one place is like $20 per hour somewhere else.

      There, if anyone reading this started with this post I just saved you several pages of reading.
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      • Profile picture of the author spyxx
        X post is quite revealing for wages in Philippine.. But Here is something even better..

        I have 2 maid who live and work full time in my back home country that we paid for around 30-40$ a month. They been working for me for more than 10 years and they are happy with it. Ok I do give a raise and bonus sometime, since they are more like family to me now. But still, people in the third world country will benefits a lot with this kind of rates. lol $2/hr.. Hell yeah, you will find tons of ppl fight for it.

        The starting wage for someone with Bachelor degree was around 150-250/month working full time (48hr/week), not the kind that X is paying for, 20 hour. Ok some of them were happy with it, and some doesn't but they just don't have options. With huge competition in labor market, its either they take it or leave it and become unemployed.

        This is what we business people call as leverage. Most people in the west, who were overpaid, see this as something unethical. But for people in my home country, its a brand new opportunity.
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        • Profile picture of the author lisa mesa
          Would you be happy paying someone outside the U.S. $100,000 a year to work for you?

          In many major European cities a worker would just be getting by on that income. Yes, really, after you factor in a high cost of living and painfully high taxation.

          The point I am making is this - is $2 an hour fair and acceptable to the worker in their location? There are huge variations in the cost of living around the world. $2 an hour is not the issue at all.
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          • Profile picture of the author Preben Frenning
            Originally Posted by The 13 th Warrior View Post

            Stupid?!?

            Yeah, exactly, I totally agree, " IF " the above illustration is accurate.

            How about this? How about NOT playing stupid and acting blind to justify the means to the end.

            It's all about BALANCE. So there is NO such thing as a middle ground, a happy medium?

            Simply can't stretch the imagination to something pragmatic, and rational, for whats needed or could be of some real use at the time.

            Here's an example: Some dude came up to me, asking for money. I said money for what?
            He said he was hungry. So I said, if I buy you some food, you're cool? He said yep.

            So I bought him a meal , that I, myself,would've eaten had he refused it.

            Should I have bought him Lobster and Steak? No, not even rich people do that everyday. Most folks, rich or poor eat at regular places , on average, like everyone else.

            I looked at him eat it, and it was smelling so good, I ordered the SAME thing for myself.

            Balance. Not in necessarily extremes all the time, one side or the other.

            There is a fair, reasonable solution without the extremes, if one but took the time. But if you consider a that a waste of time, then that is your belief.

            If you simply do what you honestly can do within reason, and its from the sincerest heart, you will find a way.

            Do what your heart and conscious tell you, good or bad, it'll manifest out eventually.

            The 13 th Warrior
            I'm pretty sure I could have eaten what people in the Filipines would have eaten if they make $2/hr if I was over there.


            I'll try to say something that hasn't been said in this thread.

            If I travel to one of these poor countries and the hotel charges $10 per night and the restaurant charges $3 for a steak dinner, am I exploiting the owners of those businesses by paying their stated prices?

            Or are low prices only "bad" when they are for labor?
            Definately. I always prefer to pay at least three times more for everything I buy when I travel to countries poorer than my own!

            Seriously, you are right. It's the same thing. If we are over there, we pay what they want us to pay.
            If we outsource to the Filipines we pay them what they want as well, and it's incredibly cheap either way.'

            And besides, for all you overly "Ethical" people:

            Originally Posted by richdirtygirl View Post

            I got some first hand information about how things work in Philippines about a year ago...

            It was a woman living here in USA that had family there.

            A good monthly income was around $350 for a webmaster job.

            The funny fact was: if you paid more, you could put the life of the person or his/her family at risk. I don't know if she was a liar or not... but what she said was that a bigger income would make them "wealthy" for the locals and they would be at risk of being kidnapped.

            So, here we go again... with the itchy pseudo moral thingy...

            RDG:p
            You are indirectly going to get your workers' kids etc. KIDNAPPED if you pay them too much!
            How "ETHIC" is that?!?

            So the bottom line is, if you have moral and ethical issues about outsourcing to poorer countries where they consider you a hero for paying them $2/hr, simply don't.
            Keep on paying $10/hr for decent work where you live, where that amount is considered "fair".

            Now I'm going to order the training package from replacemyself.com.
            This thread has enlighthened me, and made me realize that outsourcing to the Filipines is a good thing.

            - Preben
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  • Profile picture of the author johnmags
    The minimum wage for manual labor here in the Philippines is around US$6 per day. The $1-2 per hour is ethical here.

    Anybody wants to outsource, just contact me and maybe I can help you with that. Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author digimix
    Here in Jamaica, there are many people who live on less than $2 per hour. I definately couldn't but that is probably what I would pay my helper when you convert it to Ja$ that is Ja$160 per hour she could earn Ja$25,600 per month. You see you also have to take into consideration the cost of living and the standards of living. While I couldn't live in The USA on the salary I am paid here (US$15,000 or Ja$1,200,00 per year) In Jamaica, having no children, I can live like a king even on such a slim budget .
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  • Profile picture of the author edpudol1973
    I am from the Philippines I guess $2 per hour is great, I am also in outsourcing business.

    $2 in the philippines is equivalent to 94 Pesos if the guy work 10 hours a day that is 940 pesos and this is a great earnings here in our country because the minimum salary per day is 350 pesos for 8 hours work.
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  • Profile picture of the author Preben Frenning
    I have now signed up for the 14 day trial for $4 at replacemyself.com, and I must say I'm impressed.

    And for all you "ethical" people who doesn't like this, here's some info for you:

    John is focusing on treating your employees well. Really. A lot of the training course is about that, and why. It is beneficial to both parties, as your workers will treat you well back. And he claims the reason to hire people from the Philippines, is because they are honest, and they work well.

    They also set their wage themselves, so there is no ethical dilemma here whatsoever.
    $2/hour might sound little to people in the states, but it's a lot over there. When I tell people here in Norway about this, most of them say "poor guys", but once I explain it to them, they get it. That is just their immediate response.

    But once you read the job listings etc. It's impossible to find anything unethical about that. However, whether you think it's ethical to hire a cheap workforce to make you money is an individual topic. But regular business ethics apply here. So if you think it's ethical for macdonalds to hire people to flip their burgers and make them money, then the same goes for this.

    And if I hear another statement of this being "Unethical" I will flame it. I think most of us have pretty much agreed that it is ethical by now.

    Btw, the training provided by John in this course is awesome. If you're thinking about outsourcing overseas, take the the trial. I will probably be unable to get to sleep tonight simply because the information I have gotten today is incredible. Definitely one of the best training courses I have ever signed up for.

    Thank you,
    - Preben
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  • Profile picture of the author GoranCro
    I'm from Croatia and I would consider it to be a 2nd world country. People don't make very much at all compared to the US. of course there are exceptions. last time I was there I saw Ferrari's and Mercedes all over the place yet I turn my head and see people driving the 45 Yugo still.

    It's not unethical in my opinion. You're helping that person out, his/her family, and in the end both of you benefit from it.

    My only question is where one can find such cheap work?
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    • Profile picture of the author Preben Frenning
      Originally Posted by GoranCro View Post

      I'm from Croatia and I would consider it to be a 2nd world country. People don't make very much at all compared to the US. of course there are exceptions. last time I was there I saw Ferrari's and Mercedes all over the place yet I turn my head and see people driving the 45 Yugo still.

      It's not unethical in my opinion. You're helping that person out, his/her family, and in the end both of you benefit from it.

      My only question is where one can find such cheap work?
      Replacemyself.com

      And if you only want the job listings:

      odesk.com (free)
      bestjobs.ph (Not free, but works great)

      - Preben
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    • Profile picture of the author YseUp
      Originally Posted by GoranCro View Post

      I'm from Croatia and I would consider it to be a 2nd world country. People don't make very much at all compared to the US. of course there are exceptions. last time I was there I saw Ferrari's and Mercedes all over the place yet I turn my head and see people driving the 45 Yugo still.

      It's not unethical in my opinion. You're helping that person out, his/her family, and in the end both of you benefit from it.

      My only question is where one can find such cheap work?
      Are you sure about this? Yes there are lots of super rich people driving ferrari's but there are also many poor people.

      Money isn't everything, I think the average quality of life in Croatia is much better than that of the US IMO. And your women are much better as well!

      The US isn't like they show on TV or in the movies you know... far from it.
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  • Profile picture of the author grumpyjacksa
    if that is exploitation, then jump on the bandwagon......

    manufacturers of various products have been relocating factories to countries where income levels are lower......

    it may seem like exploitation at US salary levels, but the opportunities are heavensent to the people getting jobs.....

    it's only ecploitation if you pay less than what it would be worth in that specific country

    living in south africa, i can get by on $ 600 a month

    on $ 1000 a month, i can live comfortably

    by the time I hit $ 2000 a month, i'll be paying 42 % tax.......

    just my 0.02c...
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  • Profile picture of the author Preben Frenning
    I talked with a Philipino exchange student today, and he told me he was making 7,000RPS/mo. When he worked back in the Phillipines.
    I told him that I'll help him get an online job that pays at least 10,000RPS and upwards when he comes back, which should be extremely doable.
    10,000RPS = Approx. $250/mo, and he thought it was awesome!

    He had a bachelor in IT science, and was quite good in english, so his chances are good.

    He also told me that there was extremely many new graduates who can't find jobs over there. He said the government doesn't care much, and that the best Philipinos worked abroad.

    Just an update for me =) Now go hire someone to write your articles or make your software!

    - Prebz
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  • Profile picture of the author Nicholas Ho
    Check this out : 300,000 could lose jobs in Philippines - The China Post

    So is this a goldmine? You bet!
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  • Profile picture of the author Preben Frenning
    OMG! IM outsourcing suddenly became charity!
    Now the danger lies in people taking advantage of this =(

    Remember to always treat your employees with respect, and don't abuse crisis' like this!

    Still, you can take advantage of it by hiring qualified workers ;o)
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  • Profile picture of the author johnjonas
    My guess is that as people in the US realize how smart, loyal, educated, and hard working the Filipino people are, they'll be just fine.

    Just an update (Yeah, I'm the guy this thread was about), I have 6 people in the Philippines who work full-time for me. I pay them between $100 - $550/month for the full-time work.

    They're all super happy.

    Best thing that ever happened to my business.

    John Jonas
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    • Profile picture of the author ardnutt
      I wonder if all the people who seem to be playing the "ethical" card are sat at their PC right now, safe in the knowledge that the clothes on their back, the shoes on their feet and the coffee they're slurping was all produced by people earning an "acceptable" minimum wage.

      I take it you all know the source of the above items I mention?

      I wonder....
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      • Profile picture of the author YseUp
        Pretty soon (2 or 3 years from now) companies will be outsourcing their work to the US as well, so they'll get first hand experience whether it's ethical or not.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Dulisse
    It is always beneficial to approach the person for $2 a hour, and tell them your going to give them what they are really worth to you, and give them $20 a hour.

    To me, it is simply exploitation of those not as fortunate. Period.

    Yes, they are doing it to feed their family. Why not give them $20 a hour so they can actually buy their kids a bicycle too.
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    • Profile picture of the author YseUp
      Originally Posted by Mark Dulisse View Post

      It is always beneficial to approach the person for $2 a hour, and tell them your going to give them what they are really worth to you, and give them $20 a hour.

      To me, it is simply exploitation of those not as fortunate. Period.

      Yes, they are doing it to feed their family. Why not give them $20 a hour so they can actually buy their kids a bicycle too.
      Dude, I know you're coming from a good place but what your proposing is not a good idea.

      I've visited 3rd world countries, India, Cambodia etc. And I always see 'rich' westerners feeling sorry for locals (especially kids) and give them money. A couple of dollars is not much to you and to them it's a fortune.

      Problem is your causing inflation of local prices for goods by overpaying compared to the rest of the market. That's why 'rich' westerners should haggle with local shops and not pay too much more (a little bit is ok) for local services and goods because it hurts the local people more than you realise.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Burton
    I do not wish to point any accusatory fingers at anyone, but here are some numbers pulled from the CIA WOrld Fact Book (theoretically a reliable source of information) for comparison.

    GDP Per Capita (Purchasing Power Parity) annual by country / Unemployment Rate
    Philippines $3,400 / 7.4%
    China $6,100 / 4%-9% (officially 4%, may be as high as 9% in rural areas)
    India $2,900 / 6.8%

    Now using the standard formula commonly applied (at least in the USA) of 2000 working hours per year, times the rate per hour of $2, this would be a $4,000 per year job. Which is in excess of the Gross Domestic Product (according to the PPP formula) divided by the population, in 2 of these three countries, and is about 2/3 of the same value in the third of these countries.

    Compared against the USA where the same figure is $48,000.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sandi Valentine
    I worked in mental health. We had mandation, and I wasn't even a nurse. If I was needed to work overtime at the last minute, and left because I had children at home with no care, I could be written up or terminated for abandoning patients. It was even worse for the nurses.

    It's a real problem, even in the US

    I don't work in mental health anymore
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  • Profile picture of the author Nevada Gal
    What's ethical is paying people for their work; if someone wants to work or $2 then that's okay by me. $2 may hardly buy a coffee where I live but in some cases it's a lot of money.

    I have some friends who live in Thailand. They live like kings on hardly any money. They have full time staff, cooks, maids - the whole she-bang. The reason they have all this is their money buys a lot more stuff. The people who work for them are happy to have jobs, consistent income and money in their pockets.
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    • Profile picture of the author TheAge
      I cannot see how this is unethical at all.

      As long as a person agrees to work through their own free will, and they're not being forced or being mislead, then even if they were being paid $0.02 it would still not be unethical.

      If there were government restrictions on these types of fees being paid, employers would find other solutions, and many that could work for $2/hr would instead be unemployed and making nothing.

      Not only is a free market ethical, it is also practical.

      - Adrian
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  • Profile picture of the author Daisuke
    ive gone to the philippines every summdr for the last couple of years and two dollars an hour isnt that bbad. chinese sweatshops pay less. and in case you havent heard of 3rd world countries...

    and theres no such thing as a 2nd world country lol
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    • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
      Originally Posted by Daisuke View Post

      ive gone to the philippines every summdr for the last couple of years and two dollars an hour isnt that bbad. chinese sweatshops pay less. and in case you havent heard of 3rd world countries...

      and theres no such thing as a 2nd world country lol
      Actually, the term does exist, and referred more to a nation's politics than national wealth...

      The term Third World arose during the Cold War to define countries that remained non-aligned or neutral with either capitalism and NATO (which along with its allies represented the First World) or communism and the Soviet Union (which along with its allies represented the Second World).
      From Wikipedia.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kezz
    My point of view on this is pretty simple:

    1 > It's not the wrong thing to do to pay someone $2 an hour if that's what you can afford to pay.

    2 > If you can afford to pay them more instead of hoarding everything to yourself, that would be the right thing to do.

    Before I started working for myself it always drove me nuts to see the "boss" arrive last, leave first, do less work than everyone else and never hand out a raise when the business profit grew off the backs of everyone else's hard work.

    If you have the opportunity to make someone's dreams come true, allow them to lead the dream lifestyle and provide for their family in a way they never thought possible, simply by paying them an amount that you probably won't even notice is gone, why on earth wouldn't you??
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  • Profile picture of the author avandrunen
    So, if a person can afford to pay more they should.
    By that logic, if at one time you paid 2 dollars for a chocolate bar at one store that is the price you should pay always as this is obviously the price you can afford to pay.

    As far as the whole ethical, non-ethical issue, can I just ask why it is so difficult for your average North American to step outside the over privileged boxes we all live in and realize that there is a whole big world out there that..oh my God..is different than ours and runs on different rules..I know..I know...how dare they but what can you do.

    As far as the idea of paying well above a countries average wage and doing the people a favor and slingshot them into wealth, please read up on some basic socioeconomics before you continue that argument.

    Well, lets see what that stirs up.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by doop View Post

    Is he "exploiting" these people....?
    Think of it this way.

    If anyone would pay them more than $2 an hour, they would work for that guy instead.

    But they don't, because $2 an hour is the best they've been offered.

    Why should they be paid more? They'll take this much. What's wrong with it? Obviously they think it's enough.
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  • Profile picture of the author ikan_sith
    It is interesting that people in IM are always bringing up this issues of ethics when we are practicing one of the last capitalist opportunities available to common people. Part of capitalism is exploitation? Isn't this why we want to do this, to free ourselves and our families from being exploited?
    Remeber this when you are deciding if you should give away your techniques or offer a WSO!
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    I could get a job in the US paying $2.13 an hour right now in the US, of course that is one that also gives tips. I choose not to do that however but I know many that do.

    A salary of $500,000 a year would be just right for me. I think I need to lobby the government to make that the min wage.

    It's also not fair that a marketer could create a product and have it flop. All that money paid to out sourcing and marketing wasted. Anyone that creates a product should have a guaranteed sum paid to cover all costs.


    Sarcasm if you didn't know.
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  • Profile picture of the author UKTim29
    Originally Posted by doop View Post

    I just received an e-mail from a marketer..... check out the video for yourself here:

    Replace Myself | HomePage

    The guy is paying workers in the Philippines about $1-$2 PER HOUR to create his "Ultimate IM Lifestyle".

    Now I'm all for outsourcing - in fact i wouldn't be nearly as successful online if it wasn't for outsourcing.

    BUT WE HAVE TO DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE....

    Now my question is - Is this crossing the line of ethical employment?!

    Is he "exploiting" these people....?
    Yeah but you're comparing it to the wage in the country you live in!!!!!!!

    Elsewhere wages will be a lot lower. They may well be getting a very good deal!

    I thought it was obvious knowing this!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Joel Gray
    In the Phillipines that is an acceptable rate of pay and may be the only way someone can feed their familiy. In addition that rate of pay per hour over there actually allows them to make a pretty decent living and considering that to get the same work done in the U.S. it would cost you 10 or 20 times that amount it seems that this is a good thing for us IMers, and Mr. Jonas also offers a monthly membership where he will provide you with training videos to help train your new $2 per hour employees which should help you make more money and then you will be in postion to increase the hourly rate of pay thus helping your employees have an even better lifestyle.

    Joel
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark_w
    $2 per hour is reasonable in the Philippines. Many people there live on less than $2 per DAY.

    Ethics are down to the individual to accept or reject based on their own views. So much of IM and sales could be termed as manipulative, just like $2 per day. But the other name for this is Capitalism.
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  • Profile picture of the author grandstar
    I'm from the third world and in my city the standard cost of a haircut is $1.

    $2 is quite a lot of money here.

    Many here would jump at it
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  • Profile picture of the author Damien Roche
    Personally, I find it sickening. As I do child slavery in china and elsewhere. No different and I'd rather be no part of it.

    ..and $2 can be well enough in places like that - but so what? Why not $5/hour or $10/hour. Because you won't make as much money??? sad pathetic selfish people.
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    • Profile picture of the author Hesaidblissfully
      Originally Posted by Damien Roche View Post

      Personally, I find it sickening. As I do child slavery in china and elsewhere. No different and I'd rather be no part of it.

      ..and $2 can be well enough in places like that - but so what? Why not $5/hour or $10/hour. Because you won't make as much money??? sad pathetic selfish people.
      Saying that someone voluntarily choosing to sit in the comfort of their own home on a computer in exchange for significantly more than the living wage in that country is "no different" than slavery does a disservice to legitimate forms of human rights abuses going on in the world today, not to mention historical instances of slavery.

      There's a difference between voluntarily CHOOSING to work, and being FORCED to do work, often under threat of physical violence if you refuse to comply.

      Have you ever actually MET a child slave before? Try taking one of them aside and telling them "Hey, see that guy over there writing articles on the computer in that air-conditioned internet cafe? Yeah, he has it just as bad as you. Sure, he gets to choose which tasks he wants to do, and he can stop working any time he wants, and he won't get beat if he refuses to do something, and he gets paid enough to eat, pay his bills and rent, etc...but he's a slave too, just like you. It's no different".

      I think the child slave would beg to differ.

      From a business perspective, it makes sense to pay qualified employees/outsourcees well because a happy employee is more likely to stick around. But to say that someone is morally wrong because they don't feel the need to pay them 3 or 4 times the minumum wage in that country is misguided.

      I can choose to pay you $2 per hour, and you can choose to turn that down and look elsewhere.
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  • Profile picture of the author MJ Sterling
    Hey if they are happy to accept that level of pay then I'm smart enough to give it to them!

    That's my thoughts on the subject anyway.

    Everyone sets their own rates, if they weren't happy with it, they would charge more.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bertil Jenner
    Paris Hilton and her Billionaire friends probably think that the $30 per hour you earn is unethical.

    Wealth and income are all relative.

    Bertil J
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    • Profile picture of the author Silas Hart
      I used to live in China, and I had about 20 Chinese employees. Two managers, and 18 workers who made $1.00 an hour which is almost twice as much as they would have made working in a factory. My employees essentially sat there for 12 hours (they chose to, I offered only 8 hours but they wanted more because the work was easy), and I purchased their food and water and there was always leftovers, offered them a non-cramped place to stay (pretty expensive, luckily this wasn't in a city), and paid all utilities.

      This was about six times as much as they would be making working in a factory producing items for Walmart or something.

      Hell, some of the people that worked for me had degrees in Engineering.
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  • Profile picture of the author theemperor
    I don't think this unethical, and I am usually quite "ethical" about things, e.g. I am anti-ewhoring and most black hat.

    The people working for $2/hour may sound poor, but perhaps they live in parts of the world where you don't need $1600/month just to survive (e.g. roof over head, taxes, bills, energy, food).

    It is free trade, and it is no less ethical than some poor sod working for $20/hour in an office whilst their boss hires them out for $100/hr to a client.
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  • Profile picture of the author YanKirby
    Alright. I respect all the people's sentiments who posted before me.

    But if you want to know about it from someone who's spent all 22 years of his life in the Philippines, then listen up.

    This will clear out the "Philippines" side of the equation.

    An average filipino worker in the national capital region (in metro manila area) has to earn at least Php385.00 a day. This is the minimum daily wage. Using $1=Php46 that adds up to $8.50 per day (8-hour work shift). This figure is for any job outside agriculture.

    This is according to the department of labor and employment or DOLE.

    If you are employing someone who is not from the NCR, you can pay lower which depends on the location. Basically, if youre hiring someone living in a more economically developed city, you will have to pay higher. BUT, the NCR rates are the highest.

    So taking this into account, paying someone $10x30days= $300 a month is an average fee.

    This is the range a typical office worker is earning.

    If you are hiring someone who's been a writer all his life (Ive been working with a former editor-in-chief to write articles for me ), you have to pay more.

    My advise would be to pay $500 as a start once you CONFIRMED. Again I will say this again, once you CONFIRMED and VERIFIED, you have a winner in your agent. And then raise it when youre happy with the outcome youre getting.

    To cut all the crap about everyone saying its "human exploitation", by all means, I have to say NO to that.

    Well regarding the "Ethical/Non-ethical" side of the equation, I'd have to pass on that one.

    I can go on and on and still end on on the same premise. The thing is... what's unethical in your side of the world might not be "as unethical" in some other parts.

    Hope this helped everyone.

    All the best,

    Yan Kirby
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  • Profile picture of the author thefallsman
    If someone is willing to happily to the work i dont think there's anything wrong with it. If they're being cheated into low wages then yeah its unethical but if not it's just free market

    In many places 2 dollars an hour is excellent pay. we just might not be used to hearing of such a low wage because our standard of living is through the roof compared to most of the world.

    No one is this thread happens to be someone who gets paid 2 dollars an hour so i'm not sure we have a right to say whether or not it is unjust.

    Yeah he's right second world countries are former soviet countries the term has just died out
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  • Profile picture of the author rkbehera1
    Internet is a free world and we are all leaving in a civilized and free society. Everybody has his/her right to offer someone he/she knows. It is up to you to accept or not. But I don't think paying 1 to 2 USD per hour for "IM Lifestyle" is too bad or unethical.
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  • Profile picture of the author moneyblogger1
    If the guy is willing to only accept $2 an hour then its up to him.
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    • Profile picture of the author cscarpero
      Average income in the ph for a college graduate is $7 A DAY. Not per hour, per DAY. Now also remember the cost of living is lower there too. Everything is relative.
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      • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
        And some of the top entry level jobs in the US for college grads pay $0 ...

        Such as certain internships.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel E Taylor
    I was trying to find a nice and respectful way to say this,

    But if you think it's in any way unethical and exploitative
    because you are comparing the wage to the cost of living in
    America...

    Then you are a dumbass...



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    • Profile picture of the author The GoTo Team
      Originally Posted by Daniel E Taylor View Post

      I was trying to find a nice and respectful way to say this,

      But if you think it's in any way unethical and exploitative
      because you are comparing the wage to the cost of living in
      America...

      Then you are a dumbass...



      Daniel
      For them they accepted the money so its completely fair, they agreed to work for that wage.
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  • Profile picture of the author The GoTo Team
    They took the money because they thought it was fair. That is technically completely fair.

    But the man knows how much that work is worth, and should be paying his workers the appropriate price. To do otherwise is demeaning to his business.
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  • Profile picture of the author bmitch213
    I have to say it's what ever you perceive it to be. What if he wasn't giving them his business would they even have work?

    Personally I'd pay according to quality.If it's quality work I'd pay more. So if he's getting rich & paying them $1-$2 hr that's wrong!

    However, there is an old saying: "You Get What You Ask For." How you treat others is how you'll be treated.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mukul Verma
    Wow, lots to read here, I skimmed.

    I 100% that it is there choice. I read somewhere that mode then 50% of the world lives on less then $2 a day (Africa, India and China).

    I was just in India for a month and thanks to this $2/hr it has grown an amazing middle class that may not have happened. Now the rates are going up as they are getting smarter.

    It happens both ways. We went to tourist attractions there and they charge $0.30 to locals, $5 to tourist. At first I am like thats a HUGE difference, but then realized that $5 to use to get into a fort or castle is small and they can get away with it. No ones forcing us to go in (Here is a tip, get your driver to get your tickets, thats what we did at most places, but when we did not, we felt it was a rip off (when it was not at $5). Everything is relative.

    IF you dont like it, dont outsource.
    IF the person you hire does not like it, they should not take the job.

    I believe we are making a HUGE movement with these $2 that sending a lot of money to countries that need it.

    I do outsource at $1.21/hr at 40hr a week. My outsource works longer hours and asking for her sister to work. Because 1. Play to there strong points and help on there week points 2. Treat them like a team (they are your team who manages your business when you travel) 3. Find motivated people over skilled if you know your stuff and are willing to train them.
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  • Profile picture of the author The GoTo Team
    If they want a raise and think they deserve on e they can ask for one and im sure he would listen.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Originally Posted by doop View Post

    I just received an e-mail from a marketer..... check out the video for yourself here:

    Replace Myself | HomePage

    The guy is paying workers in the Philippines about $1-$2 PER HOUR to create his "Ultimate IM Lifestyle".

    Now I'm all for outsourcing - in fact i wouldn't be nearly as successful online if it wasn't for outsourcing.

    BUT WE HAVE TO DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE....

    Now my question is - Is this crossing the line of ethical employment?!

    Is he "exploiting" these people....?
    1. Well, if they are in another country, they have no right to expect to be under minimum wage laws in your country.
    2. If that is a good wage for THEM, GREAT! You may bee doing them a FAVOR!
    3. MOST outsourced remote workers are paid by PIECEWORK! That $2 can be far less or far more.
    4. If you pay TOO low, the time can go up, or the quality could go down, and the REAL price will go UP!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author butters
      Its both you can look at it two ways.

      #1: You could be their only business thus giving them money to actually live, even though it is cheap, money is better then no money at the end of the day.

      #2: You are taking advantage of poor countries where there standards of living are dramatically worse then yours and they would do anything for a couple of dollars.

      It all comes down to, are you comfortable paying it, personally 2 dollars is a little low, I wouldn't pay it because I know the quality of work will suffer.
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  • Profile picture of the author paulie888
    It's time to get realistic here and get off our high (moral) horses. We are currently in a deep recession and many of these people are out of jobs and absolutely desperate, we are actually helping to give them a better life by hiring them to do this work. This is not menial or hard labor, and MANY of them would prefer this work to slogging out in the plantations or doing heavy physical labor for much less money!

    FYI for people who don't know, $500 a month is definitely higher than the average wage in the Philippines (I have talked to several Filipinos here in the US who have verified this). $500 a month is what the average doctor gets there, and they have to work long hours for that! So don't tell me that we're exploiting someone there by paying them $300-$500 per month...you're seriously deluded if you think so.
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    • Profile picture of the author pokerdawg
      Let me ask this -

      Where do you find people for $1.50 or $2.00 for these tasks?

      eLance and others are more expensive.

      I do have some tasks (bookmarking, link building) that could be good work for someone at the right price. No sweat shop, working from their computer.

      FYI, I have a friend who ran a business in the US with his entire back office operation in India - 1,000 people. The average wage was $2,000/year, but that included $100k managers and $200k foreigh managers. Most call center people got a couple of dollars a day.

      It was all legal, a good environment and they had jobs that they otherwise would not have had. My first reaction was to wince, but when you realize that 40% are unemployed, there is no bailout, no unemployment insurance and no help, they'd rather get that - and be able to survive - then sit at home and get nothing.

      If anyone could recommend sources to me, either post here or PM, I'd appreciate it.

      Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author robvegas626
    $2 an hour = $16 for eight hours of work. That is well above the average daily salary in the Philippines. Those people being paid $2 an hour consider it a good job. To call this "unethical" is completely absurd...if you offer $16 a day you will have college graduates lining up for that job.
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  • Profile picture of the author nanavlad
    Originally Posted by doop View Post

    I just received an e-mail from a marketer..... check out the video for yourself here:



    The guy is paying workers in the Philippines about $1-$2 PER HOUR to create his "Ultimate IM Lifestyle".

    Now I'm all for outsourcing - in fact i wouldn't be nearly as successful online if it wasn't for outsourcing.

    BUT WE HAVE TO DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE....

    Now my question is - Is this crossing the line of ethical employment?!

    Is he "exploiting" these people....?

    This reminds me of a scene in The Magnificent 7. When Charles Bronson character was asked how much he charges per day, he said $500
    Then added ,at this moment in time breakfast for a days work is seems fair

    Might not be the exact dialogue, but the idea is there
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  • Profile picture of the author Mo Faisal
    It isn't unethical IMO. But the wages are definitely quite low!!
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    • Profile picture of the author smokemon
      $2 an hour? I bet I could go down to the local shelter and find people here in the States that would do just about anything for $2 A DAY. What's unethical is that I can't hire someone in this country for that price. I'd much rather help someone struggling here in our poorest & most vulnerable class than contribute to the middle class of another country.
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  • Profile picture of the author misterkailo
    Definitely unethical, but not illegal. I guess it's a personal choice. I rather earn less profit than to maximize my earnings by paying someone less than $2 an hour to help me make money.
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  • There is nothing unethical in it, because in the Philippines a factory worker gets $100/month of work, so it's not so low in their local market.

    If a person accepts this payment, I don't see nothing wrong with it.
    In my country, the minimum per hour the low allows paying is $5.4/H.
    You may say it is also low, it actually is, but for our market it is acceptable. and so there is no problem with it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Damien Roche
    Fair points. I rushed to express how I felt because I have serious feelings about charity - and business is not a charity.

    You're right, this is more than enough for people in these countries. Paying well above the minimum wage and putting them up with Doctors and other 'high paid' professionals.

    And it certainly isn't unethical in any way to be hiring people above their minimum wage.

    So yeh, my message was a little misguided.