I keep my attention focused on other things so I haven't heard of those high ticket product launches bombing...care to share more details? And damn, just 2 copies with a 6 figure list and that happened with 2 launches...what do you figure was the reason? Definitely not just unlucky, I agree.

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To do a big launch you have to have a high ticket item. The big boys won't bother unless they're getting over $1,000 it seems in commission. So you've got product makers jacking up prices on things that aren't worth even close to what they're charging. This makes buyers angry and they may or may not buy the next big promo from their guru of choice.

The majority of people buy these products because they believe a higher price = higher quality stuff = higher chance of making money. When they dont make any money from it, they arent likely to be buying any more high ticket items.

these days launches are confusing, every day multiple products arrive on the market I cant help but to notice they are getting rubbish now. With the introduction of Jv partners it has become very effective & easy to sell "junk" especially with the great JV pages and prize offers

Build websites.
Rank them or buy traffic.
Redirect the traffic to someone willing to pay well for it.
Scale the above.

It doesn't get any more complicated than that, much to the chagrin of those selling big ticket shiny objects.

I am a JV for Eben as well as JW - and yes Eben's launch did not end up as big as his GURU Launch Blueprint which we did last year. That being said, Eben took a chance with the self made wealth product and had a lower estimate on his expectations i.e which was 2M - Guru Launch went past 3M.

Still Self Made Wealth brought in over 1.5 M and that's not bad by most people's standards...and as Jeff said he told Eben that people were less likely to want to learn about money and more likely to WANT MONEY NOW - but I guess it's part of the test process to see what works and what does not....

Personally, I stopped really caring about big launches back in 2006. I think once you start to build a business, you realize that what the guru's are selling is most likely just a distraction.

To me it seemed like a lot of the gurus kind were REALLY building their lists around the same time...2005-2006-ish. That's when the BIG DOGS all seemed to get really popular. So it does make me wonder if their lists got pretty stale. When you think about it, most of the opt-ins from gurus come during a launch. So if 60% of your list is from 2007, you gotta figure that at some point they just ignore you.

I don't even know where you'd go to sign up for people like John Reese, Frank Kern, or Jeff Walker's list.

When the kiddies get out of school, get a job, and start making paychecks, they too will start to wonder if the grass is greener on the make money from home side. They will save up their two grand and the big product launchers will be back in business.

I completely agree with Brian....there's a whole lot of new people jumping into the make money online business and will no doubt keep product launches in business. Trey Smith is doing pretty well on his current launch pushing software for creating apps - it's a new product for most people so no wonder it's getting heat - that being said JW is going to launch in a few days and I would very surprised if he does less than 3M

Who are these guys? I noticed the auto mass traffic dude made BANK, huge gravity on clickbank for quite awhile, what did he do right that the others didnt?

When these guys sell products for $2000+ and then "teach" us how to sell cheap crap for $2000, you gotta wake up. Overpriced products, buggy programs, haphazard support and "guru" mutual admiration societies. Never again for this black duck. Lucky for them there'll always be fresh chickens to pluck.

Hmmm, seems like a topic where you just want us to click your sig link?

Perhaps I'm just being cynical. But yeah, it's good for discussion.

Yes there could be some saturation there or it could just be products that people are not interested in or just didn't resonate with the market at this time. There could be lots of reasons, but yes, I don't these guys can go on forever and ever doing the same thing over and over. But think about it. What's 100 sales of a $2000 product? Still a tidy sum to be made even after expenses.

Interesting developments. The rush to market has created crap, and I've bought my share. Each new buy has been more disappointing than the next. If others feel this way too, (as it seems they do) there goes the "repeat customers"!

Good luck, Gurus! I hope you have invested your profits wisely -- you may need to live off them!

There you go...you got the master himself clarifying things for you - albeit he has a PL coming up - but considering the fact that he has done it over the past 6 years consistently and helped others do it consistently - I'd tend to believe him a wee bit more than the rest.

A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument, they say...

Way to go Jeff...let me know if I you need any help

There's nothing to hide here, at least I don't think so? :confused:

The promotion the OP talking about is to Kelly Felix's BTF members, for Trey Smith's software stuff. He sent a broadcast today saying what the OP said, about the promo 'bombing' and only getting 2 sales.

In my opinion, whether the 2 sales part is true or not, it's very smart marketing on their part, as he is now pitching 2 of his 'friends' products for a total of $134 and you'll get the bonuses he originally offered with the high ticket purchase.

It could be just brilliant marketing...

To be honest, I don't think you actually put enough thought into this before starting a yet another "DEATH OF [Insert Totally Working Business Model Here]"

I mean seriously here is all the stuff that we don't know:

How long ago did the product launch?
How many sales did the top affiliates generate? (He might be #10 and #1-5 might be the guys doing all the work)
What's the promoter's list size?
Has every affiliate on the board jumped on and started promoting this?

etc.

Simply put, we don't have enough information to draw a solid conclusion.

I do think however that your goal was not to draw a solid conclusion but to gain attention and traffic from this controversial thread and I think you have achieved that already so great job. (That's my opinion and I am entitled to one )

Hi,

High end ticket products specially when it doesn't return enough ROI for the customer will eventually flop. A marketer just can't rehash a product forever, people are not stupid or some will probably realize their naiveness.

jamawebinc, I agree with you, there will be a shift of trend in the online industry and not just Internet Marketing. I believe that would be going back to "basics" no fuzz, no hype, affordable if not free information that WILL REALLY help internet marketing wannabes.

Product launches isn't dead, but very HIGH ticket product launches are declining in popularity. Once a customer is $2k lighter and didn't get the results he wanted, bang, that person will never again buy a high ticket product. Not unless that person didn't have enough yet ^^.

Just my opinion.

The fact that Walker is in here, in a defensive and derisively mocking position, is in itself proof, that there is something to the post. It is an obvious sign of weakness to attempt to defend a world class marketer's 1 in 50,000 conversion rate.

Cut the price by a factor of 5 and I guarantee you get a hell of a lot more than a 5X increase in conversions.

Hi Paul,

You're right and thanks for correcting me. It is not conclusive proof. It is merely an indicator.

Beyond that, people on the outside will never really know the truth. It's only good business sense to keep a tight lid on the product launch bombs, for product owners and affiliates alike.

The fact is, as you well know, prices are arbitrarily set and the only testing ever done on price is, "how did the last guy do?"

There are a lot of ways to have a $2 million launch. One way is to sell 1,000 @ $2,000. All other factors being equal, on a digital product with minimal customer service needs, I'd much rather sell 10,000 at @200 or even 20,000 @ $50 and wind up with a hell of a lot more buyers on my list. Obviously, there is an optimal price point. I guess my complaint is, going all the way back to Traffic Secrets, I've never seen a guru even try to find it.

Are there specific statements of fact in Jeff's post I'd like to tackle? Nah, not really. I'm sure "Launch Echo" is all Jeff claims it is and we should just burn all the launch profits in a post launch marshmallow roast.

Remember the put $5 in an envelope and pass it on to 5 people online money making scheme 15 years ago.

As with all scams, people generally wise up and realize a scam for what it really is. People have maybe finally realized that the information in many $2000 guru courses can be easily bought in a $30 marketing book from Amazon.

Hoodia, **** berry, Bernard Madoff all had their day too.

I just saw the link in the OP's signature... "The Death of Product Launches..."

Man oh man...

Now there are 3 things certain in life.

Death, taxes, and people claiming a technique is dead because it hasn't worked for them.

There were 3 or 4 movies last year that were major big budget movies. They all were in the red, for millions and millions of dollars.

Let be honest, there's just as many movies launched as there are IM products.

That doesn't mean the movie industry is starting to go dead in the water.

Things aren't always what they seem though. Harry Potter 5 for example LOST $167 million dollars.

Massive brand, with a massive following, losing that much money? Must mean the title has run its course.

People all around the world were mocking Harry Potter saying its finally run its course... But it's what they couldn't see that told the real story.

The production team spent millions on new state of the art cameras and other studio equipment. Taking millions out of the budget.

All that new equipment though will be used on all there other movies for years and years. Making them billions of dollars extra.

Same with these 2 launches. You don't see the massive lists that were made. You don't see market data/opinions that were found. You don't see the name and branding that comes out of it. You don't see the future sales.

Not all things are what they seem at first glance.

That's normally where the real money is. At the real business end.

Rhys,

A lot of movies lose money at first. Many of them make their money on DVD sales, branding rights for toys and games, etc. You might call those profits "Launch echoes."


Paul

Another invalid point about this is the whole "2 sales got me in the top 10, therefore the launch sucked."

There's a very good reason why most leaderboards offer like $10,000 to the 1'st place affiliate and $100 to the 10th place affiliate.

10th place normally doesn't bring in that many sales, compared to the rest. Like Jeff said, its normally the top few that bring in the bulk.

If they did, they would offer more than $100 to 10th place.

That's been the norm since IM began.

* The invalid point that Kelly made in his email.

Most of the big launches are related to Internet Marketing and they offer similar products but with different strategies.

I believe people want something new. A new product or new strategy or new technology. If you launch new product with same terms like traffic, blog, etc., it will not get good response.

Internet Marketers with large list of subscribers would want to give a unique product to their list. There are almost 5-7 launches every week so who and how many would you promote?

Could just be 'launch fatigue' finally setting in.

With how many big ticket launches that have been done over the last few years....it's quite possible people are just tired of it and not buying anymore.

Actually I was not calling him a lair. I was saying he is laying out an argument that persuades people to his point of view. Rightfully so, because he has a vested interest in weather or not people believe in the effectiveness of launches.

That is the point I am trying to make. You are going to here one side from Jeff and that is Launches are awesome. No matter how far they are slipping in this market. Exceptionally since PLF is getting ready to launch again. And you are the first to come in swinging when you think someone is picking on your buddies.


You are especially good at taking something someone says and Turing it into what ever will benefit your argument. Now, maybe I should have been more blunt so hear you go...

Jeff is going to puff up launches right now because PLF is getting ready to launch. I am not calling him a lair I am calling him a marketer that is protecting a tactic that he has a vested interest in.


Product Launches work but it comes with a lot more than what you are told and see. Product Launches are Slipping in the market because most, not all, of the products being released are over priced pieces of garbage.

Plus I never said his points were "practically mute" because of the data. I said it was because of his vested interest in people believing in the effectiveness of the PLF.

I then went on to back what he was saying. So how that turns into me having a problem with him is beyond me. The actual conclusion of my post was the main point and it was a point you seem to agree with.

All I know is Anik Singal's Empire Formula is worth every penny.

Ok, i will bite on your dig at me. So let me just quote what I actually said...

I went ahead and highlighted a very important word.

Also, my point had nothing to do with your interpritation of his post. So, do not throw me in that category.

If you read my post with an open mind you would have seen that I did not say one disparaging thing about Jeff.

Shannon

Interesting thread, and instructional for anyone paying attention.

Again you are twisting my words into something that allows you to further your point. You and everyone else knows exactly what I was talking about.

Now, I am not going to get into a spin battle with you. I have said NOTHING disparaging about Jeff Walker, but because my post did not praise Jeff and PLF you are trying, and failing, to make me look like a bad guy that is Just a Jeff Walker "Guru Hater".

Which I am not. But I do stand by my original point...

Jeff Walkers points in this conversation are practically mute because he has a vested interest in whether or not people believe in the validity of product launches.

And the reason product launches are slipping is because most, not all, of the recent launches are over priced garbage.

Or wait... let me put this another way for you. Jeff is getting ready to relaunch PLF so he obviously does not want people to believe they are not as effective in this market.

Oh wait, you could twist that into me calling him a lair.

How about this...

Jeff Walker is the most honest person on the face of the earth, but he has a vested interest in whether or not you believe that Product launches are slipping.

I don't know, I am sure you will reach far enough into your wonderful vocabulary to school me on what I actually meant.

As a side note... Jeff does not have to lie to defend his position on the effectiveness of launches.


How is what I said "unfairly misrepresented" I said what Jeff said is factual. Product launches still work. I then went on to say that because of his vested interest, his point are practically mute.

And if you actually think puffing up meant something bad...

I puff up my wife all the time and it has nothing to do with lying...

Honey you look amazing. - she does

Honey I love the way you cook. - I do

Babe you are an amazing mom. - she is



Shannon

Here is a link to the definition...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/puff+up

Let me point out what it says...

4.puff up - praise extravagantly; "The critics puffed up this Broadway production"
Sorry I was not taught to puff something up in a negative way. I was taught to puff things up in a good way.

You are right...

People see exactly what they want to see no matter how far from the truth it is. Even intelligent people with the gift of persuasive writing and a huge vocabulary.

Very entertaining thread. Funny thing isn't it - you get people saying "There's no money around"..."the economy is terrible"..."people just won't spend that kind of money on an online product" - meanwhile someone is beavering away in the background ignoring all the chatter and producing something that people actually need and want. Badly. And that's the point when price pretty much becomes irrelevant. It's got nothing to do with the price - it's got everything to do with the offer - and who its pitched to. There's plenty of money out there and plenty of people buying stuff. Including high ticket stuff. Marry the right list with the right product and Bingo - you're in the money.

I'll give you an example. I just sold my apartment. The doomsayers advised me to wait "until the market picks up". Or to sell at a lesser price than what I wanted. I ignored that advice. I knew I had a good property that would be perfect for someone. So I gave it to one agent - an exclusive "sole agent" deal and we presented the apartment beautifully in stills and HD video. "Pitched it to a responsive list". At top whack. With "urgency" and "scarcity" built in.

It sold to the first looker. The agent (at my suggestion) told her she could have a private viewing ("early bird offer") before it was officially put on the market (launched). She was told if she really wanted the apartment she would have to make a decision that day as there were already other buyers waiting in the wings (which was true but not at that price).

High ticket product launches aren't dead. What may be dead, and a good thing too, is Launches pushing stuff that really doesn't deliver what it promises - at any price.

Anybody want some popcorn?

To those who think and/or believe that big launches only happen in the Internet Marketing niche: Boy oh boy, you need to get out more.

That being said, there are SO MANY huge, huge launches happening in all sorts of weird niches every single day, it's not even funny.

A big launch which happened very recently was by Bill Phillips in the fitness industry... The Transformation Solution Program - Discover The #1 Roadblock KEEPING You From Burning Up To 225% More Body Fat.

Granted, Bill Phillips is an established expert in his niche, but the point of "big launch" remains. I was closely following this launch for a while, and I am an affiliate for them as well. It's easier to piggy back on big names, plus I know he always has quality products which I can confidently promote.

Before the launch happened, a huge buzz was built all over the internet, via social networks, e-mail lists, videos, forums, you name it. This thing was ALL OVER the Internet, you couldn't walk (or surf) by any website having to do with the niche in one way or another and not seeing something about "The Transformation". The affiliates were given access to some tremendous resources to promote the buzz as well.

In the end, when it launched, there was so much buzz about it in the industry that everyone just ran there to buy the product (consisting of eBooks, videos, audio, etc).

I know he had a 7 figure launch. Price points have jumped from $97 to currently $47. They're on Clickbank currently with a gravity of 83, but let me tell you something: That gravity of 83 is more real than a gravity of 2000 by the likes of Mass Money Makers and such will ever be.

That's just one example, there are many which happen everyday. Just because I don't know about them, doesn't mean they're not happening.

My product launches have been going just fine and according to plan!

Best,
Shane

Paul, why'd you delete more of my posts?

mgtarheels: I answered your question. See post 92. You are continuing to do what you were asked not to do.

Ladies and gentleman, this is what happens when you offer to explain a policy decision to someone privately. They think it's a debate, and they push things.

There are topics and people and sites that are not allowed to be discussed here. Not in a good way or a bad way. The topics include politics, religion, Rule #1 violations, other forums in this market (in any way, good or bad), and general muckraking. The primary reason for all of them is that they tend to turn rational conversations into flamefests and paranoid conspiracy spew.

They breed divisiveness and they create forum wars and other stupidities.

If you want to call that censorship, I'm fine with that. But it's an even-handed censorship. It's "topic not allowed," not "only if we agree with you."

I'm going to remind you also that it's a long standing and well known policy to not allow complaints about deleted posts. There isn't another moderator on this board who wouldn't have banned a few people in this thread a long time ago.

If you wish to provoke that in order to "prove a point," that's up to you.


Paul

Let's get back on track as I myself have been diverted from the point I originally wanted to make.

Relative to Walker's comments:
What Jeff alludes to is, the market is more crowded than it used to be. There is more competition. Similar products are in greater supply.

It's simple economics folks. Greater supplies are always met with lower prices. To fail to recognize this is to fail to understand business. Sure, you can try to position your products as being of higher quality, you can try to position your products as having greater value. But in the end, you will bow to the free market.

The price disparity is too great.

For every guru product, there will be competing products by lesser known marketers, at much lower prices. At some point, the disparity is so great ($2700 vs $97 for example) that you can't sell the value.

You're expecting a 25-50X premium? Mercedes doesn't enjoy that kind of premium over a Kia for god sakes. Your mistake is in thinking you're selling McClaren F1s when the truth is, you may have a Lexus vs a Chevy.

I wish someone would have the guts to try and bring the prices down just for a freakin' test and see what happens. I know Reese proposed this years ago while apologetically accepting partial responsibility for causing them to get so high in the first place.

Either way, it will happen. You can't ignore the economic drivers forever. Not many people are going to continue to mail 100,000 subscribers for 2 sales.

In reference to the launch in the original post, I bet Ed Dale is doing great with this promotion. If you follow Ed on Twitter you will know he is an Apple 'fanboy' and is always talking about his latest aps and how great the ipads etc are. He seems to convert a lot of people to Apple as well. His followers seem prime candidates for this type of product and surely would have responded well.

I'd think that the idea of Software development would scare quite a few people, especially those who are just getting comfortable with creating websites. It would appeal to a narrower range of people than a general MMO business model, IMHO. I can't imagine it would be easy to sway people to take on a different direction to affiliate and email marketing - that has the been the basis for all the other launches you have promoted.

Edit: Would you guys consider Tim Ferriss' '4 Hour Body' a successful product launch outside of the MMO niche?? From what I saw his process was very similar to what a lot of these digital products do - without the scarcity, and the high price point. He has me wanting to buy.

Firstly, I think in my three or four years of being on the forum this is the most entertaining/interesting thread I've read.

I won't make a long post because my thoughts are very similar to Paul and Jeff's (both of whom I've never talked to off the forum).

However over the years I've got on many affiliate lists and worked with a handful of the "gurus". Launches, I'll agree, are getting smaller as of late but are far from dead by any means. It's not that launches can't be big, it's that the "perfect storm" that made products like Mass Control, PLF, etc so wildly successful hasn't been prevalent as of late. I have no doubt it will return in launches in 2011 and on.

Jeff and Paul together have hit on all the points I'd say make up the perfect storm already but I'll summarize:

1) Competition - When PLF, Mass Control, etc hit the market not only was there less high-ticket launches but Clickbank was also much smaller of a group and there was no real concentrated effort in pumping out new products like there is now. This made everyone really focus 100% on the big ticket product launch, instead of getting e-mails about loads of different products.

2) Material - I was actually going to make a blog post a few weeks ago on exactly what Jeff mentioned in his blog post linked on the front page of this thread. Launches as of late haven't had the "immediate, money in your pocket tomorrow" effect. And as a result the urgency factor just hasn't been there. This is a result of the material taught, not some shift in the mindsets of buyers.

3) Syndicate - Probably one of the words I hate using the most. But, as with anything, as time goes on some members of the original group of "gurus" have moved on, branched into different areas or they don't mail for as much anymore. Nothing wrong with that. There just isn't, and I've heard it from a few of the "gurus", the same concentrated effort on launches there used to be. And that most certainly isn't meant to insinuate a lesser degree of value in products; it's just the way it is.

4) Saturation - This kind of goes hand-in-hand with the first point. Because of the increased competition, in both high-ticket and low-ticket launches, buyers are becoming saturated with offers. This is NOT to say they're spending less, I believe that's not the case at all. It's just that they're spending their money on whatever the new thing is that week, instead of saving and waiting for xyz's new launch.

I believe all these factors have played a role in launches doing a little less volume as of late than say a year or two ago. If there was a concentrated effort, like there used to be, I have no doubt you'd be seeing launches as big as ever.

Remember that everything goes in cycles as well. Just as for a six month period in early 2010 there was a string of very high-grossing product launches there was also a bit of a lull in the second half of 2010. No doubt there will be another high-grossing cycle kicking in sometime this year with a string of above-average launches.

And, let's not get ahead of ourselves. I won't name names but I talked to a good friend of mine a few months ago who did a high-ticket 2k launch and he said if they made one tweak (that they did on the second day) on the first day they would've gone from 1.5 million in sales on the first day to 2.5 roughly. I won't say what their end revenue was, but it was just as big as PLF or List Control was and it took place just half a year ago or so with a few of the "perfect storm" elements lacking.

In January the two major high-ticket launches did about 2.0-2.5 and 3.0-3.5 in revenue I believe it was. Not too shabby and not really "bombing" material.

Cheers,

Zach

P.S - I'm about to go kill Trey in some Black Ops. I'll make sure to ask him, as he watches the sales roll in, what his thoughts are. I have a feeling I'll get laughed at.

This thread makes me glad I never hear about all these big launches and gurus and stuff like that. I've heard of Frank Kern and that's about it, ignorance is bliss!

I agree with the post above saying u can outsource with 2k and it's better spent. I'd say 2k is best kept in the bank. Join the war room, use a bit for domains and test advertising and small outsourcing jobs. Sometimes you can get great roi on $10 spent on advertising or services eG 1 or 2 articles or some backlinks.

lol, now that was funny.

I agree with you there Net - I went through the same thing myself, going from one sure thing that would work while I sat on the beach scammin on girls drinking taquila to the next. I was on the merry go round for a long time until I asked myself why being successful online should be any different vs being successful anyplace else. Once I figured out it wasn't, then I was on my way.

It seems that even these high-ticket MMO products aren't as lucrative as some of the new software products that come out constantly, promising to help you annihilate the search engines and build a million back links per week...and charging you $97 or $147 per month as a recurring fee. I have yet to find a high-priced automated software that delivers anything close to what is promised on the sales page. But some of the cheaper stuff is very helpful, and works...

Perhaps people involved in IM are becoming smarter, at least when it comes to giving a lot of consideration before paying $2,000.00 for the latest product being pushed by a so-called "guru." As the owner of my own business, I do not purchase items offered through any of the online product launches. To me, it is likely that many people realise (realize) that it is possible to get the same, or at least similar, information for a lot less money through other reliable sources. It's all part of being an educated (self-educated) marketer and accepting that this is an ongoing process.

It's quite interesting that most people who think the launches are bombing, have never actually had or worked behind the scenes on a big time launch.

Here's the dealio people....

1. people are getting burnt out on the usual launch fiasco, especially when you aren't offering anything of value (trying to do a product launch with a scarcity mindset)

2. the schmucks out there have taken the launch model and F'ed it for everyone... their whole model is get ppl to mail, launch a product with a 2 week shelf life, then do it again, and again. (product has no shelf life)

3. The economy sucks people. I'm in miami and every day i meet someone who's filed for bankruptcy or who's really hurting for money. They're gonna be a bit more cautious on what they buy. The days of people free spending are gone (for now).

4. Some of the products and hooks are really pathetically bad.... even from "good" marketers. you aren't gonna hit a home run everytime. (case in point ebens launch, love the guy, he's a master, but proof you aren't gonna crush it each time)

5. There really hasn't been anything "new" in the market in the last couple of years... its a lull in the IM space....

That said, if you do things right... you can make a F*cking TON of money and build a good business... (key words being: if you do things right).

I think Robert has a decent point. The problem is, as I've already pointed out, the price disparity. The 20-50-100X premiums are ridiculous. To stick with your designer clothing analogy, Louis Vuitton and Versace do command 50-100X premiums but they're appealing to the ego and you get a payback everytime you use it.

You're selling tools and information. There's no ego attached to owning a Frank Kern product. Its f*cking information. You can put bells and whistles on it but for every information product out there, the same information exists, or will exist after release when someone copies it.

The same applies to tools, even more so. I've never seen a guru tool that was world class software. And there's always pre-existing or knockoff products.

Your argument that if PLF was $197, competing products would have to go to $7 is specious. Depending on perceived value and nuts and bolts comparisons, a $47, $77 or even $97 product would compete fine.

But you don't have to believe me. Just look at what is out there. Look at Brad Callen's competition. Look at Market Samurai. Both those guys make millions (plural) with nothing selling over $176 and there is plenty of competition for keyword tools way above the $7 price point.

I'm trying to rationally discuss the subject. I'm not making it any more personal than I have to and I'm sure Paul would agree.

By the way, before you posted this, I posted a remark about coffee to stay awake, a link to an excellent ebook template and offered a bunch of word suggestions for someone that asked down in the copywriting forum. How are those troll posts?

Saturation, economy...

thanks for the laugh:

[DELETED]

Awesome post Roaddog and well said.

[DELETED]

I believe that the only reason why some big ticket launches are not working is just that people are selling things that people don't want!

It is the same information sold over and over and over again. Some of that info you can find it for free.

Now people that are actually making launches with new material are doing fine.

There's no doubt that there is still money to be made by launching products. You only have to take a look at the different niches out there.

Nowadays I've noticed that due to the fact that there are so many products who speak about certain issues in general, people tend to be creating more specific products to address specific issues.

But if you manage to do a general launch on your own, I think that it is still achievable.

Check out your sales page conversion. Or may be the list was very unresponsive.

My list before was unresponsive as well.

A few people on here have mentioned that JW is going to be putting PLF out again in a few weeks. Does anyone know the dates?

This is an interesting thread.

I think most people have stopped buying those particular products because of a few problems.

Look at your big Clickbank launches. These people have some kind of obsession with trying to trap people on their site, offering different prices of their product, tricks about quantity limits, etc. They also like making products lately that are all about the "magic-button" that lets you buy their software, click a button and start making crazy money. People have just realized after buying a ton of these products that they don't work.

I truly think it's time for the internet to take a shift back to quality instead of quantity and false dreams. I have certainly been waiting for that a long time and personally have always tried to push for this sort of thing to happen. Auto content is taking a huge hit on Google. Auto blogs, Auto Wordpress affiliate plugins, etc are taking a hit, but the "gurus" are still trying to push products like that. IMO at least

Ryan

Firstly, let me just say I read this whole darned thread in one sitting ... I want an hour of my life back!

Here's my 2 cents:

--- Making Money in the Software Game ---

Software creation and marketing is hard. I've been building and selling SW for over 20 years in both the private and corporate sector. I started with games in the 80's and moved to business systems in the early 90's. Millions made and sold for my clients. I've designed, built and sold software to businesses all around the world, to governments, even to the US and UK military (they have some strict rules) and projects never turn out as expected.

It's NEVER as easy as it seems. The old maxim 'on time, on budget on spec ... pick 2' comes to mind. Sure there's money to be made in it, I did for decades. The allure of outsourcing was always the spectre in the shadows, when I was working for Oracle our pitch was that their systems technology would compress the timelines and reduce costs, the same when Microsofts's Visual Basic hit the market - "so easy you can do drag and drop" coding .. uhuh ;-)

Look, I'm enjoying watching another "text book" launch with Trey Smith's program and I expect it will do well overall. But thinking you can dive into the SW development and sales business - specially the smartphone app dev business, is not going to be that easy. Remember, Trey does say true success is not in the technology but in the marketing - I agree with that absolutely. Building a better mousetrap will not have them beating a path to your door. Sorry folks it simply doesn't work that way.

--- Let's talk about high prices ---

Value is an emotion, price is a number. When people are feeling positive and expect a bright future, the money they will pay is higher than when they are concerned about the future or just bummed-out by the economics. It's classic confidence signals if you ask me.

I read somewhere that when a market's emotional state is swinging down (bearish?) you will find people moving toward the 'sure things' like Church, the state and even powerful prophets that promise a brighter future and offer comfort.

When the market is optimistic (bullish?) you will find people taking greater risks, exploring and colouring outside the lines of everyday tasks, and generally will have a higher tolerance for greater risk.

--- Are launches dead? ---

Really, do I need get into this. Of course they're not dead. Far to many examples in this thread alone to suggest otherwise.

And I got a very interesting email last night from Mike Long (Kelly Felix business partner) about how 'badly' they were doing and how 'launches were struggling' and then ... what do you know, they pivot in the copy and announce another launch and start promoting that!

And as I wrap up this little diatribe, a thought occurred to me ... no, it couldn't be ... seeding a forum with a contrarian concept to get a conversation going to pre-sell a launch!!! Say it isn't so.

LOL, you gotta love this industry

PS. I hear they're selling mining rights on the moon again...

REMEMBER FRANK KERN'S " STATE OF THE INTERNET ADDRESS" ?

Frank Kern Jan 20
BEGIN RANT:

I don't know about you, but I've
gotten pretty burned out with all
the product launches going on.

...Which is funny coming from ME
since I'm one of the guys who really
popularized product launches!

I know, I know ...irony.

But like I said in the State Of The
Internet Address, product launches
are a BONUS to your business
...they are NOT a business model.

(I actually stole that quote from
Rich Schefren. Don't tell him.)

Anyway - here's the deal.

Launches are awesome, but if you
do them every week ...you'll
burn out the market.

They won't be cool any more.

You'll be like the car dealer that has
a "Super Sale" every weekend.

(There was a car dealer in my town when I
was growing up and he had a Super Sale
every week.

What was hilarious is he'd be on TV
every day and he had a lisp ...so he'd
always be talking about his final
"Thuper Thale". But I digress...)

Anyway - I'm ranting right now because
it's important to YOU that YOU build
a funnel of fresh leads and prospects
that come into your sales process every
day ...predictably.

And then YOU build a conversion process
that turns them into customers ...predictably.

THEN do a launch or two a year and you'll
clean up.

But if you do the ol' "Launch Of The Month"
routine, you'll be hosed.

So ...what to do now?

Well, I'm a big fan of finding out who's
getting the results I want ...and then just
doing what they do.

And arguably the BEST guy in the world
at generating a predictable and steady
flow of new leads and customers is
Eben Pagan.

When I built my dog training business
up to a million bucks a year, I modeled
his systems ...badly.

Worked anyway.

I think the term for that is taking "Imperfect
Action".

Give it a whirl.

BEGIN SUPER IRONY:

Here's something that's really ironic
about this email.

It's to tell you about...

Another ...

Damned ...

Launch.

I know! WTF??

But hear me out. It's actually about
the free launch content and not about
the product being sold (since I don't
really know what is actually for sale
...whenever the mysterious "thing"
even goes on sale.)

Look, I didn't even want to send this to
you because you're probably just as burned
out as I am, you know?

But then I saw the pre-launch material and it
was really impressive. (I couldn't resist.
I'm a marketing junkie like everybody
else. I freakin' HAD to click.)

And I think if you watch this video and get
this report, you'll thank me for enduring
"launchitis" long enough to screen it, verify
that it's good, and tell you about it.

It's by Eben Pagan and it's worth looking at:
Trust Me, This Is Good.

Hope you like it,

Frank

P.S. Fair warning: I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT
THE HELL EBEN IS ACTUALLY SELLING.

I'd assume it's a course on Self Made Wealth
(judging by the title of the video) ...but
I haven't talked to him about it or anything.

Been busy working on other stuff.

For all I know he could be selling cotton
candy machines.

And frankly, I don't give a damn if you
buy it or not ...whenever it actually
goes on sale.

In the miraculous event that you click that
link above ...and my affiliate cookie is still
in your system by the time his course
goes on sale ...and you actually buy
the course (whatever it may be) ...Eben
will send me some money.

I have no idea how much because I don't
know (or care at this point) what the product
is or how much it costs.

But I hope he sends me 90 billion dollars.

If he does, I promise to send you a life sized
statue of Pamela Anderson made out of solid
gold.

There's a very small group of people who are on their lists and can afford to buy these products. Once those people have brought they are extremely unlikely to buy any of the other products that they are selling or promoting.

I personally think there will come a time when people are no longer interested in these kind of products because of the large price tags, they're just not competitive with the rest of the market any more. They know that too and I bet it scares them.

This thread is awesome. I love how so many topics have found their way into the mix. Now if we can work an "Is Bigfoot Real?" discussion into the thread, and a "Did we really land on the moon?" I think my world will be complete

Because it adds no fricking value to the forum and it a useless piece of crap thread. Who cares if some "anti-guru" marketer gave this thread a 5 star rating.

And guess what your statement means?

This means that people are spending TIME on this thread. People are spending their "valuable" and most scarce resource on this "useless" thread while they could be using this time to "learn" how IM truly works and how to "truly" build a business.

I could have done tons of work in all the time I wasted on this thread.

You are not the first one who has done it. People do this all the time to get more exposure to their signature files and hey you just admitted it so props to you.

The last weeks i was busy scouring the common JV sites for new and upcoming products.

TO SAY IT IN ONE SENTENCE:

MOST of it looks and reads like CRAP. Excuse my language. The current trend seems to be to release so called "one-button-cash-machine" systems.

Each and any looks and reads exactly the same. There is no innovation or anything new coming out, just big names re-hashing and selling crap as the miraculous "click a button become millionaire" solution.

ah the smell of fresh irony in the morning as Paul Put it

Could it be that people have been nauseated by the "hype" that often goes into almost all launches. Then get ready for the quadruple upsell. A lot of what is out there is simply rehashed product. Perhaps people are just plan fed up. Most of these guys are no longer trusted by people anymore. Especially when they do the scarcity trick or something like that, when it is not really what they mean.

They ought to mean what they say and say what they mean!

Okay so I don't wanna get pulled into this but I don't know why, I just feel like defending myself so here it is because I think you made alot of "false assumptions". So here goes:


http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ou-paypal.html

1. It is not a "paypal bashing" thread. If you read the thing you will be able to see that I actually had a legit problem and i am "LOOKING FOR A SOLUTION". When did asking for an alternative become a crime? You just looked at the headline and jumped on the high horse didn't you?

2. This thread is from July of 2010. So just assume for a second that this thread was indeed on the wrong, did you really have to pull out something from 7 MONTHS AGO?

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ot-stupid.html

1. Okay I think you are right on this one. It was my mistake and I will take full responsibility for it. I shouldn't have started this thread. I'm sorry.

I will willingly accept if I do something wrong and this one is no exception.

2. From 6 months ago. Seriously man, look at the date. Alot of stuff happens in 6 months.

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...guru-spam.html

1. Well I was pissed of at all the "STOP SPAMMING ME YOU STINKING GURUS" threads so I started it stating a possible solution. All I said was, instead of starting out threads saying "gurus suck", just unsubscribe and move on with your life.

Time waster? I don't know maybe.

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...s-so-high.html

Ummm, it's not a whining thread. I actually make a case for that.

I also started this thread after seeing all of the "high ticket product launches suck" type posts.

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ch-system.html

Okay I am actually a little disappointed at this:

I sat down and spent like 30 minutes trying to record a video that will actually help people.

It's not a "Guru Suck, check my signature" type thread. I am actually providing value. read the comments.

So yeah, you think I am full of crap?

No problem. Beat me down and talk **** on me whatever.

I just learned one lesson today. Stop caring about the goddamn crap and let everyone do whatever they want.

So enjoy. You think I am an idiot, hey go ahead you are entitled to an opinion but at least take some time to "make sure" your assumptions are right.

All you did was read the titles of the thread and jumped to a conclusion.

One thing is for certain, there are two kinds of individuals when it comes to all the launch conversation:

1. The ones complaining about the launches on internet forums, and
2. The ones actually doing the launches.

I have a theory about who is actually making more money across the board.

Funny thing about action and all.

Hmmm... Call me a simpleton, but isn't a product launch just an extended sales pitch?

Demonstrate your product -> build trust -> show the value -> craft an offer that requires immediate action

Are we really asking whether sales pitches are dead?

If we're asking whether people are sick of paying $2k for stuff, well that may have something to do with the economic state in the US at the moment, specifically access to credit.

Or the offers may have stunk recently.

The Software System didn't appeal to me, seemed like too much hassle. Maybe I wasn't the only one?


That being said, we must bear in mind that the ultimate "make money" niche is college, and people are still paying WAY more than $2k for an "info course" that won't pay itself back for years, and involve a buttload of hardwork so me thinks that people are being a bit narrow sighted making market analysis off Good Ol' Trey from Macon.

Gavin

LOL how true never occured to me to view it that way...$100k+ info products rolled up in lectures...... :-)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh...what about the people who buy them?

" Where are the customers Yachts?"

A man goes to see his stock broker. Very plush offices by a Marina.

"Wow he says look at those beautiful Yachts out there."

Yes says the broker. There's mine, there's Freds and that BIG ONE there is the owners...nice aren't they"

Oh....where are the customers yachts then?

....................................

The people making the big money form these launches are clearly the sellers. As it is in all bizz..

I was one of the top 15 affiliates for Brendon Burchard's Experts Academy Launch... and I got a good number of sales from there...

Eben's recent launch was a disappointment though... I didn't even get a single sale... If anybody knows what's going on... do share with all of us... Maybe Eben might like to share why this launch didn't quite cut it... It makes for a good case study as well (We all learn from our failures)

There are some great launches in other niche markets. For example, Kevin Gianni The Renegade Health Show - Fun and Educational TV on Raw Foods, Vegan Diets, Healthy Living and Recipes just did a product launch called The Great Health Debate Great Health Debate and how he launched it, he gave away audio lectures from 16 of the top health 'gurus'. Gave it away for the price of an email address! The product was to be able to download those audio lectures and get the transcripts in pdf format for $49.95 ($39.95 if you ordered it prior to a certain date) plus 3 great bonuses (one of which I wanted).

Basically by having the lectures back to back every day at the same time, sometimes people may miss out on one of them, so the only way they could listen to the speaker would be to buy the package.

Furthermore, because of the nature of the niche, the quality of Kevin Gianni's site and the collection of the email address for regular newsletters he will generate revenue from his other products and online shop.

A great idea, marketed well through other health 'guru' websites (via affiliate links) where thousands of people would be interested in the content as well as products. So it doesn't have to be a high ticket item, it also doesn't have to have masses of one time offers and upsells and downsells to do well.

If marketers looked for long term development of their customer list, instead of having them buy this $2k item all at once that ends up being a disappointment, they would benefit from repeat custom worth a lot more than $2k. People are unhappy about all these hyped $37 but no, its $27, but no its $17 ... oh and it won't work unless you buy this upgrade $67, and this further upgrade $397, oh can't afford that, then $27 a month, products that just wind people up. People feel cheated because the quality of the products have been less than satisfactory. MANY marketers have sold out to sell high commission products that are just total garbage.

There are better ways to launch products that acutally show your customers that you want to help them, even without payment up front. I still believe in the 50/50 principle, give away 50% of your best content and use that to keep people coming back to learn more, and then sell 50% of your best content for a reasonable fee, because you built up a positive rapport with your customers (who can also help you add content to your site and keep even more people visiting) you will make sales over a longer period of time, whether it be from info products, DVDs, streaming video, or tangible products like equipment, courses, etc.

Just my thoughts on the subject

Regards

James

I am constantly getting product launch spam. That could be one reason. Also, people are spending less money now. This is due to our poor economy.

The Title of this post Should be Changed to "Product Launches are the BOMB"

In my niche market I rotate product launches every month (NON IM Make Money)
They have worked like clockwork every time I run them.
I have enough different products so that I do not burn out the lists I have generated.

What I do not understand is when people constantly post, they are getting spammed with all these IM offers, 1 word UNSUBSCRIBE it is a simple click away.

If you follow a GURU or Internet Marketer why would they not promote marketing packages. I assume you participate on this MARKETING FORUM to learn how to make
money. The GURUS did not hold a gun to your head to get on their list.

If you never bought a high end product and simply implemented the great free content the GURU's use to build excitement in the product launches I really think you would be
amazed at how it could help your business grow.

Tim

[DELETED]

The reason product launches are bombing is simple: Buyers have wised up enough that no one is going to buy a product unless someone (preferably the seller) has actually used it to do whatever the seller is claiming it will do.

In other words, if you want to sell a get rich product on the web, it better be something you used to get rich before you start selling it to others. There are too many sellers who jump right into selling "make money" products even though they have no experience making money with that sort of product, and there are gurus who are so far removed from having used their own products to make money that they have dissipated their credibility.

Think about it, folks. If you are studying martial arts, you want a teacher who has kicked somebody's ass at least once in his life, and preferably you want the guy with a bunch of championship plaques on the wall, but you also look at the championships and if the last one was 20 years ago, then you move on because his technique is out of date.

A product launch is nothing but a fancy way of presenting a product or offer to the public. Saying that Product Launches are bombing is like saying that capitalism and/or consumerism are bombing.

Like in any other offer or sales venture, as long as A) your product addresses an existing need, B) you can back up your claims with undeniable proof and C) you know how to market/promote your stuff, there's no reason as of why a Product Launch should inherently bomb.

So you are saying that a particular guru's product launch bombed...

What's that got to do with my business?

Do you want me to stop promoting the gurus' launches? Do you want me to explain why this is happening? Do you just want to explore how 'weak' the gurus are? All of which are a waste of my time and will just lose me money.

Even if it bombed, I will still keep promoting them because they have the name and their products are easy to sell. And I think we have enough 'theories' about why the guru's product launch bombed in this thread.

On the sidenote, I enjoyed how people suddenly change sides with each post in this thread. This is definitely entertaining.

No Mr. Puddy...I wrote it yesterday. What thread?

and the actual product?

This thread has had some time to digest and we've seen a bunch of product launches since then... Personally I've participated in most of the big launches as an affiliate over the last six months and I'm not really seeing "guru product launches are dead".

Let's look at the last few -

Andy Jenkins re-released Video Boss and that did very well, it's still inside the guarantee period so its unclear what refunds were like.

Brendon Burchard's Total Product Blueprint sold well, especially on the heels of Main Street Marketing Machines 2.0. Burchard skews to a slightly more female market and maybe a bit older than the traditional guru market. When I was in San Diego last month, I heard the figure of $5.8m bandied around. Obviously he's had some refunds and things, but I can tell you I've not had any refunds.

Then there was Main Street Marketing Machines 2.0 Fusion from Mike Koenigs and that just absolutely crushed it by any standard. Unfortunately, I only made a couple sales (three from memory) and ALL of them refunded - same comment, far too complicated with all of the software and systems.

Jeff Johnson's Super Affiliate Coaching Club was just before that and that launch needed Jeff Walker's parachute, airbags and everything imaginable because from what I could, it totally crash landed. I pushed ALOT of leads at that and did absolutely ZERO sales.

At the time of this writing, Don Crowther's just opened his Social Profit Formula 2.0 cart this morning and I didn't even promote this product. I sent out an email with a link to my list explaining what the product was in case any of them have missed it. I didn't get many optins and I don't expect to sell anything.

Here's my opinion on the whole thing...

Koenigs crushed it because his launch videos were pretty special, they were very well crafted and produced. His product set also had a truckload of shiny software tools that everybody loves which made it even more attractive. It had massive appeal because of the buzz in local marketing and he had an interesting set of tools for mobile which was also generating buzz.

The marketing of that product and the use of heroes and personal stories skewed it to a more female audience and that worked very well. The social proof was off the chart with people like Mike Lemoine and Brian Williams telling their stories.

Unfortunately, as I experience with my customers, when they went in and tried to use the system, it was WAY TOO HARD. I like Mike Koenigs having recently met him, but I don't care who says it, that product had too many moving parts and software pieces for people to get the hang of quickly.

They've done a great job with webinars and teaching, but I think it would have been better offer being cut back dramatically in terms of functionality. As someone with a strong "enterprise software" background where we've rolled out tens of millions of dollars in systems with massive training budgets, I would never have rolled that out to a company - far too complex and the usability is not there. That's not to say the products are crap and don't work - I'm sure they do, its just way too complex for the average person to understand without being overwhelmed quickly.

Burchard's launch was as good as it could be and he's a deliver machine. He is amazing at selling 90% of something and making it look like you're getting 110% value, but then suddenly he surprises you with the other 10% and now you think he's totally over delivering. He's the best in the business at "teaching" direct to camera and he deserves his success. I buy his products personally as well as promote them. Oh and Brendon's organization internally is awesome, that launch closed in late May and I've already been paid my commissions.

Video Boss was also really well done. Andy is, as he says himself, an acquired taste. What he did really well over the last year or so has been to help everybody else out with their launches, really provide a ton of value to the "big dogs" and they came out and promoted hard for him. I'm not sure what the numbers are, but I know from my own sales and what people I know did and the numbers were very good. People in the top 10 all had over 25 sales so its safe to say that the top two or three guys probably hit triple digits.

Jeff Johnson is a nice guy, but the Super Affiliate Coaching Club launch was (from an affiliates point of view) a disaster. It went on for like 5 weeks. The sales letter at launch was way too long and the offer was probably the worst I've seen in the couple years I've been in this industry. $2000 for 3 months access to the information that suddenly got doubled? Then you were given free access to another $2000 product (Traffic Voodoo 2.0) a little bit after that. The initial sales offer tried to sell you into a massively expensive coaching program, so people immediately thought they were buying the lite version for $2000.

And the content wasn't ready - Jeff held a seminar where much of the courses content comes from after the original launch was supposed to have closed. So people like me started promoting and then we're told its being delayed a couple weeks and then when it comes out, you can see that most of the original content comes from this seminar.

I think Jeff is a smart guy and a great marketer, but that was a terrible launch. I also hear that it didn't sell well. One thing I heard from my list was they didn't want to hear anymore about his Mercedes he'd just won - I think the whole campaign turned people off.

With Don Crowther, I just think its bad timing. I've really liked his pre-launch content, but I just promoted three big products in the last two months, me and my list need a break. I think its an interesting topic. However, I think a launch that falls in the middle of the 4th of July is destined for troubles.

Overall, I think at the very top end of the market, what gets called the "Guru" space, quality still sells. I think the whole launch process is overdone and people are now gaming it for bonuses because they know people will give away a truckload of freebies.

However, its ironic that these same customers are complaining of overwhelm as the main reason they aren't implementing. Interesting.

I think the "free line" is out of control, its diminishing the value of the products themselves.

What interesting is that Ryan Deiss is now doing much more evergreen stuff at lower price points. I notice Eben Pagan is too - I've gotten a great deal of offers from him recently under $297 - from memory "How to start your business from scratch" was $0 upfront and $97 in thirty days. It was nice little product, I was very happy to buy it.

I think there will always be the massive launches like MSMM 2.0 and Total Product Blueprint. People like Jeff Walker and Andy Jenkins with their products will continue to be successful because the IM niche has a steady inflow of newbies who could can get value out of those products. I'm sure other "top dogs" will continue to be "successful" by almost any sensible measure, but there is a tailing off happening.

Anyway, great thread...

It could simply be a case of the list having seen it all before, market saturation is bound to happen, especially is the product is just rehashed material others have seen somewhere else (i.e. the list)

Its amazing how many IM products are launched every month to me.

But what I guess surprises me even more is the success of the ones that promise INSTANT $3K profits in your Clickbank account if you give them like $47 for the software.

There's a quite a bit of merit in the old phrase "if it sounds too good to be true... it is"

The reason those products launches didn't relatively poorly (apparently) could be an aberration.

Or obviously could be a result of several factors which have been discussed previously.

Certainly product launches will become stale if the same tactics are used over and over in the same market.

Time will tell if those recent disappointing (apparently) results are a trend or not.

#1: The economy is down so people have very little expendable income.

#2: People are starting to realize that a lot of the big products out there can easily be replicated with a few hours of research and finding free, high quality tutorials by people that are writing about it on their blogs.

Just my 2 cents.