Why is spinning better?

by dp40oz
64 replies
Im new to the game of using articles for backlinks. I used to just outsource all my link building. I guess just not sure why spinning an article would be better. If im submitting my article to 100 article directories in order to obtain backlinks why would it be better to spin the article rather then submit the same article to all the directories? Ive heard claims that google wont count the same link from the same content twice but this can't be true. If that were true then all those links people got when their Ezine articles were reposted by webmasters would be meaningless and I know this is not the case. Please explain. Thanks.
#spinning
  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Here's a list of recent threads in which your questions have been discussed, explained and answered.

    Note that there will always be some people selling "spinning software/services" (sometimes readily identifiable by the links in their signature-files), in any internet marketing forum, and for perhaps understandable reasons their opinions may tend to be very different from the typical views of the majority of successful, experienced, professional article marketers who commonly discuss this subject.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3352583].message }}
    • Spinning increases your chance of getting your syndicated articles indexed. Just don't create spun garbage. Test it yourself -- one article syndicated without spinning and one with spinning at least 30% unique but better if closer to 50%. Spin resource boxes and titles as well.

      Indexed articles = traffic and backlinks

      GM
      Signature



      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3352773].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Garage Media View Post

        Spinning increases your chance of getting your syndicated articles indexed.
        Here we go ...

        All my unspun, syndicated articles are indexed. How much can I "increase" the chances from 100%? :confused:
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3352807].message }}
        • Oh, Alexa, I think you're just sweet on me.
          Signature



          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3352819].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
            Depending on what you are doing and where you are submitting your articles, sometiems spinning is what you need to do to utilize those programs. Like if you were using AMA or one of its white label clones, or Niche Press Platinum, you would need to spin your articles in order to use those programs.

            If you want to use articles in a similar fashion to like Alexa or Bill Platt, then you really do not want to do any spinning but instead make each article unique and standaloneable (my made up word).
            Signature


            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353103].message }}
            • Hey MichaelZ, I was just replying to a MC post of yours...small world, ain't it?
              Have a good one, buddy.

              GM
              Signature



              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353108].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author MarkPereira
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          Here we go ...

          All my unspun, syndicated articles are indexed. How much can I "increase" the chances from 100%? :confused:
          Let's say you have an article posted on 100 article directories or syndicated on several sites and it is indexed on all the directories. Now instead of having a single article posted and indexed on 100 sites don't you think it would be better for your search engine ranking if you had 100 different articles posted and indexed?

          Spun articles definitely serve a purpose for link-building. I'm not talking about making 100 spun versions of a single article, but you can easily make 3-4 good spun versions from an article.

          You can spend $10 and get one quality article written or you can spend $10 and get a pack of 100 plr articles, then spin those plr articles and submit to article directories for link building purposes. Works much better than submitting a single article to all directories.

          However, for your main sites, spun articles have no place, there you need high quality content.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353178].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
            Banned
            Originally Posted by MarkPereira View Post

            instead of having a single article posted and indexed on 100 sites don't you think it would be better for your search engine ranking if you had 100 different articles posted and indexed?
            No; I don't.

            It makes absolutely no difference at all to me.

            A backlink in XYZ article directory is a backlink in XYZ article directory whether it's on "article p" (unique, original content published nowhere else before or since) or on "article q" (a syndicated copy submitted in identical form to 500 different directories.

            It's the same backlink, on the same page, with the same value, either way.


            All these are non-context-relevant, PR-0 backlinks anyway. To put it very bluntly, compared the the backlinks on which my off-page SEO is now built, they're all crap anyway. I'd need many thousands of them to give me the link-juice that one article syndicated to a higher-PR, context-relevant site/blog gives me.

            Originally Posted by MarkPereira View Post

            Spun articles definitely serve a purpose for link-building.
            This is a very popular, widespread misconception.

            I'm not saying that spun articles have no use and no value. (They don't for me, and yes I've tried and tested carefully, but I concede that apparently they do for others). But I'm saying with certainty, and in universal expert company that they have no backlink benefit when compared on a like-for-like basis with an unspun, syndicated value.

            Whatever the alleged value is of spinning, it surely has nothing to do with backlinks at all.

            A backlink on a spun article is no different from a backlink on a syndicated article.

            In our endless conversations in this forum about spinning, even the pro-spinners are not alleging that. (How could they?!).

            Originally Posted by MarkPereira View Post

            you can easily make 3-4 good spun versions from an article.
            Personally, for my uses of articles, they're no use to me at all. And I can write a new article more easily than I can spin one to produce a result worthy of syndication to the context-relevant, high-PR sites where I get my articles posted.

            Originally Posted by MarkPereira View Post

            You can spend $10 and get one quality article written
            Mark, for the uses to which I'm putting articles, I'd be doing very well, and be very lucky, if I could get one written for $150, not $10. :rolleyes:

            Originally Posted by MarkPereira View Post

            or you can spend $10 and get a pack of 100 plr articles, then spin those plr articles
            We live in different worlds, Mark.

            You're speaking of a completely different model of "article marketing" from the one I use.

            Originally Posted by MarkPereira View Post

            and submit to article directories for link building purposes.
            "For link-building purposes"?! :rolleyes:

            Article directory backlinks are almost useless, Mark. They're non-context-relevant, PR0 backlinks.

            Originally Posted by MarkPereira View Post

            Works much better than submitting a single article to all directories.
            Utter nonsense.

            The backlinks are the same either way. The backlink isn't affected by whether the article has been "spun". :rolleyes: :p

            Sorry, spin away with the conversation all you like, but excuse me for not being able to take it too seriously, and not wishing to respond further. We've had conversations like this here 1,000 times before, and I can't really add to what I've said in any of these threads, among others. But please excuse me for pointing out, for the benefit of anyone reading this thread that several of your "factual statements" above are totally erroneous and extremely misguided.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353322].message }}
            • That's why you build up the PR of your article directory submission urls with other links and build mini networks of interconnected urls and sites.

              PR 0 links aren't worthless at all. They serve a vital purpose. They are a wonderful outer tier for your network. Hammer away. Just don't spam, please, that's not cool.

              We could just end this debate and say "potato" - "potatoe"...but it would appear that is a bit less fun.
              Signature



              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353378].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Garage Media View Post

                That's why you build up the PR of your article directory submission urls with other links
                You like building backlinks to other people's sites rather than to your own?

                You're not concerned that if you do that an article directory will outrank your own site for your own keywords?

                I'm really happy for my competitors to do this. It's the descending ceiling.

                The one thing I'll almost never do is to build bookmarks/ping/backlink or do anything to promote an article-directory copy of my work. I don't like shooting myself and my business in the foot.

                Building backlinks to copies of articles published in directories can, in the long run, be a big, counterproductive mistake. Building up those directory copies of articles in the SERP's is short-term and deeply flawed thinking. This is something I completely avoid, because unlike most "misguided SEO things" you can do, which tend to have "no benefit at all" as their worst possible outcome, this is one that's really bad: it can actually damage your business, in the long run.

                I want to build my own sites, not other people's, even if I have my own backlinks on the pages to which I'd be sending traffic and making links.

                It's true that there can be a short-term traffic advantage to building backlinks to directory articles, but it's the classic case of "the descending ceiling" to do so, and is really short-sighted: it can produce some fast traffic and fast commissions, but every inch you raise yourself up in that way silently lowers the ceiling by three inches and limits the height you can eventually reach. The more you do it, the more certain it becomes that in the long run, you're shooting yourself in the foot and will end up with an article directory permanently outranking your own site for your own keywords (not exactly an ideal way to build a business!).

                I'm in business to develop my own appreciating assets (my niche sites) over the long term, from which I can continue indefinitely to derive increasing, passive income. Sending to directories the traffic that I produce with my backlinking campaigns would take me in the opposite direction.

                Many people do this, because of the potential for a small, fast benefit from it, not appreciating the potential for long-term damage. As a result, some end up consigning themselves, almost by force, to a "rinse and repeat" model of article marketing instead of a "building a business" model. :p

                At first, there may be a small gain, but in the long run there's a big loss in terms of opportunity-cost. For many people, that's ultimately quite likely to be the difference between making a living and not making a living.

                It's easy to imagine that you're "getting traffic from article directories" when in fact you're actually "sending traffic to article directories" rather than building up your own properties.

                This is largely a technique of people who either disappear and drop out of the business, or come back a year later announcing that "Article marketing doesn't work any more".

                Originally Posted by Garage Media View Post

                We could just end this debate and say "potato" - "potatoe"...but it would appear that is a bit less fun.
                Nah ... "you say tomahto, I say tomayto ... let's call the whole thing off".
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353403].message }}
                • I agree a lot with that, Alexa...when I first started I got caught in the article directory TRAP! Ouch!! Treadmill.

                  Now, I take a multi-pronged approach to promotions. Here's what I do...

                  As you know, rankings fall off if not maintained over the long haul, so...

                  I post some original articles to a directory (or directories) and backlink them, and then post a similar article or the same article to my own site.

                  The article will rank higher at first...I take that traffic for a few months. Then let stop promoting the articles as site traffic grows, the article will drop and my site will climb up.

                  (Of course, some original articles I post directly to my own site, and then submit to the directories. I mix it up.)

                  But, I hear ya...don't fall into the article directory trap, that's good advice.

                  And built a list (lists) and a solid business up, think long term.

                  Great points, we agree more than we thought we did.
                  Signature



                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353439].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author MarkPereira
              Well Alexa, we will have to agree to disagree

              There are many ways to skin a cat, your model obviously works well for you and my model works good for me.

              When you say article directory backlinks are almost useless non-context-relevant, PR0 backlinks, I don't know how to respond as I feel article directory backlinks are the most context relevant backlinks, unless you are submitting a weight article and promoting travel related site.

              As for the page rank, every newly published page on a site will have a PR of 0, that doesn't mean it can't rank well in Google.

              However, I must add, my only purpose for article marketing in getting backlinks to my main sites, you obviously follow a different method.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353470].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                Banned
                Originally Posted by MarkPereira View Post

                I don't know how to respond as I feel article directory backlinks are the most context relevant backlinks
                If you're doing this for the backlinks, Mark (which you say you are), it doesn't matter what you or I "feel" are context-relevant.

                It matters only what Google's algorithm thinks.

                And Google's algorithm thinks that article directory backlinks are non-context-relevant.

                Originally Posted by MarkPereira View Post

                my only purpose for article marketing in getting backlinks to my main sites, you obviously follow a different method.
                Sure ...

                We're following completely different methods, I agree.

                I used to follow the one that you follow now, but I had some difficulty earning a living from it, as most people do. But still, I have a question for you: if you're doing article marketing purely for backlinks to your main sites, why on earth are you using article directories, when there are so many better backlinks available, with far stronger link-juice, in so many other, better ways?
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353504].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author ArticlePrince
                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  I used to follow the one that you follow now, but I had some difficulty earning a living from it, as most people do. But still, I have a question for you: if you're doing article marketing purely for backlinks to your main sites, why on earth are you using article directories, when there are so many better backlinks available, with far stronger link-juice, in so many other, better ways?
                  Because of the duplicate content penalty
                  Signature
                  FREE 500 word articles, PM me for yours!
                  (4 days only!)
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353526].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author MarkPereira
                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  If you're doing this for the backlinks, Mark (which you say you are), it doesn't matter what you or I "feel" are context-relevant.

                  It matters only what Google's algorithm thinks.

                  And Google's algorithm thinks that article directory backlinks are non-context-relevant.



                  Sure ...

                  We're following completely different methods, I agree.

                  I used to follow the one that you follow now, but I had some difficulty earning a living from it, as most people do. But still, I have a question for you: if you're doing article marketing purely for backlinks to your main sites, why on earth are you using article directories, when there are so many better backlinks available, with stronger link-juice, in so many other, better ways?
                  Sure there are other ways but I like to diversify my link building and don't forget I still think article directory backlinks are context relevant

                  Alexa, I've seen you post in at least three threads today stating that article directory backlinks are non-context-relevant, totally worthless pr0 links. I agree that they are PR0 but can you show some valid proof as to why you believe they are non-context-relevant and of little value as back-link building tool.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353533].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                    Banned
                    Originally Posted by MarkPereira View Post

                    don't forget I still think article directory backlinks are context relevant
                    I won't forget that, Mark. I'm happy for you. (A shame that Google disagrees with you, but what can you do?).

                    Originally Posted by MarkPereira View Post

                    can you show some valid proof as to why you believe they are non-context-relevant and of little value as back-link building tool.
                    Nothing that will make you believe it, Mark, no. You've already decided and I happily accept that for the purposes of this discussion I have no proof that will satisfy you. Fortunately, I don't need any, either. Let's just agree to differ on the point.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353568].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author myob
                      @ Alex

                      Your patience is endless.
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353578].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author ELK
                        Originally Posted by myob View Post

                        @ Alex

                        Your patience is endless.

                        @ Alexa Smith

                        Don't worry, Alexa. You've swayed at least one newbie over to your side. I was all prepared to start launching something with the whole "article directory back links theory" in mind. Thankfully, I hadn't started.

                        Just today I've created parts of two long articles, much longer than I normally do, specifically for the purposes of syndication. I can really see the value of syndication on high-quality sites giving you so much more power than just the back links from a directory.

                        My site first, then the article directories. Gotcha. This girl's building a business!
                        Signature

                        Quality handcrafted PLR articles made by me, a mental health professional and freelance writer
                        http://healthhomeplrsite.com/

                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3354931].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author MarkPereira
                      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                      I won't forget that, Mark. I'm happy for you. (A shame that Google disagrees with you, but what can you do?).



                      Nothing that will make you believe it, Mark, no. You've already decided and I happily accept that for the purposes of this discussion I have no proof that will satisfy you. Fortunately, I don't need any, either. Let's just agree to differ on the point.
                      Ok then
                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353580].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author JoshMcGold
                    Google's Matt Cutts talking about their algorithm on his blog last month :

                    "...one change that primarily affects sites that copy others' content and sites with low levels of original content... net effect is that searchers are more likely to see the sites that wrote the original content rather than a site that scraped or copied the original site's content."


                    Sounds like a devaluation to duplicate content. Though I imagine they also devalue the type of content that spinners tend to put out, with the unnatural sentence structure and such.
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353653].message }}
                • ...because article directory links are very, very easy to get. And lots of them.
                  Signature



                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353566].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author annamichelle
                  Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                  Why on earth are you using article directories, when there are so many better backlinks available, with far stronger link-juice, in so many other, better ways?
                  Alexa, can you give some examples on where to get these better backlinks? I have a ton of tools, but they're all geared towards submitting articles on directories. Unique Article Wizard, Article Marketing, Robot, etc.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353968].message }}
                  • After reading through this thread again, I'm shocked Alexa's not retired by now and has to work like the rest of us...
                    Signature



                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3354018].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                Originally Posted by MarkPereira View Post

                Well Alexa, we will have to agree to disagree

                However, I must add, my only purpose for article marketing in getting backlinks to my main sites, you obviously follow a different method.
                ...And there Mark, lies the difference between your version of article marketing and Alexa's enormously successful version. :p
                Signature

                Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353961].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author MarkPereira
                  Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                  ...And there Mark, lies the difference between your version of article marketing and Alexa's enormously successful version. :p
                  As I said before, there are many ways to skin a cat. Maybe you equate success with postcount.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3354017].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                    Originally Posted by MarkPereira View Post

                    As I said before, there are many ways to skin a cat. Maybe you equate success with postcount.
                    Wrong. I equate success with facts.

                    Like you said, the only purpose for you with articles is back linking. Which is proof for me, you're leaving a lot of money on the table.

                    But, alas, you know best and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. :rolleyes:
                    Signature

                    Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3354373].message }}
                    • There are quite a few people on here today who simply have it ALL figured out... but yet are working on a Saturday...like the rest of us.

                      Baffling.

                      I would think they'd be on an island somewhere.
                      I just can't seem to figure it out.
                      I must be dumb.

                      It's time for a drink. Night, kiddies.
                      Signature



                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3354412].message }}
                      • Profile picture of the author Kristen Osborn
                        Originally Posted by Garage Media View Post

                        There are quite a few people on here today who simply have it ALL figured out... but yet are working on a Saturday...like the rest of us.

                        Baffling.

                        I would think they'd be on an island somewhere.
                        I just can't seem to figure it out.
                        I must be dumb.

                        It's time for a drink. Night, kiddies.
                        I have been thoroughly entertained! You're a hoot!
                        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3354567].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author suemax
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          Here we go ...

          All my unspun, syndicated articles are indexed. How much can I "increase" the chances from 100%? :confused:
          That just about says it all, doesn't it?

          There are results and results, too - quality content must surely win very time.
          Signature

          Master Resale Rights are so versatile, and these are educational, too. All kinds of IM material. Read, sell, break up into articles, combine into bundles, and there are 250 of them, complete with MRR, here for a bargain price! I'm even throwing in the sales page. Only £37 for Warriors. http://www.250mrrproducts.com

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353390].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      You like building backlinks to other people's sites rather than to your own?

      You're not concerned that if you do that an article directory will outrank your own site for your own keywords?

      I'm really happy for my competitors to do this. It's the descending ceiling.

      The one thing I'll almost never do is to build bookmarks/ping/backlink or do anything to promote an article-directory copy of my work. I don't like shooting myself and my business in the foot.

      Building backlinks to copies of articles published in directories can, in the long run, be a big, counterproductive mistake. Building up those directory copies of articles in the SERP's is short-term and deeply flawed thinking. This is something I completely avoid, because unlike most "misguided SEO things" you can do, which tend to have "no benefit at all" as their worst possible outcome, this is one that's really bad: it can actually damage your business, in the long run.

      I want to build my own sites, not other people's, even if I have my own backlinks on the pages to which I'd be sending traffic and making links.

      It's true that there can be a short-term traffic advantage to building backlinks to directory articles, but it's the classic case of "the descending ceiling" to do so, and is really short-sighted: it can produce some fast traffic and fast commissions, but every inch you raise yourself up in that way silently lowers the ceiling by three inches and limits the height you can eventually reach. The more you do it, the more certain it becomes that in the long run, you're shooting yourself in the foot and will end up with an article directory permanently outranking your own site for your own keywords (not exactly an ideal way to build a business!).

      I'm in business to develop my own appreciating assets (my niche sites) over the long term, from which I can continue indefinitely to derive increasing, passive income. Sending to directories the traffic that I produce with my backlinking campaigns would take me in the opposite direction.

      Many people do this, because of the potential for a small, fast benefit from it, not appreciating the potential for long-term damage. As a result, some end up consigning themselves, almost by force, to a "rinse and repeat" model of article marketing instead of a "building a business" model. :p

      At first, there may be a small gain, but in the long run there's a big loss in terms of opportunity-cost. For many people, that's ultimately quite likely to be the difference between making a living and not making a living.

      It's easy to imagine that you're "getting traffic from article directories" when in fact you're actually "sending traffic to article directories" rather than building up your own properties.

      This is largely a technique of people who either disappear and drop out of the business, or come back a year later announcing that "Article marketing doesn't work any more".



      Nah ... "you say tomahto, I say tomayto ... let's call the whole thing off".

      I do like linking to any resource that has my link on it. Not a lot, but I stronly prefer every page that I have a link on, has a couple of links to it, as they pass on link juice. (Although this is divided by the other links on the page)

      And, another reason for spinning is to vary keywords using a techinque much like a "mad lib". For example you can use different locals if an article is about vet advice. This allows for traffic for many more keyword combos.

      The reality is, about half of all searches don't have "results" because they are unique/one of a kind queries, causing all search engines to scramble to find results. Having as many keyword combos indexed as possible is the best way to get traffic for these articles, as these unique queries rely less on link juice and more on "on the page" SEO.

      Plus, the goal is to DOMINATE Top 10 listings with as many positions as possible. You won't get 7 of the Top 10 results with indentical articles, unless you use some extreme long tail search with an exact match. You'll never accomplish this for any keyword that people actually search for.

      Also, I'll bet your spinning methods are noobish and only spin words and phrases, as opposed to mixing and matching entire paragraphs from article to article, creating articles that not only offer unique word combinations, but also unique content to readers.

      Take 100 paragraphs, that can each stand by themselves as bits of interesting info, with each paragraph independant on the other paragraphs that become before and after. This is so the can be rearranged in many different orders and combinations, and still be interesting reading.

      These 100 "chunks" can be mixed and matched into all sorts of various combos, with the vast majority of the articles created being 60-80% unique as compared to any other single article. And by "unique", I mean unique CONTENT, and not simply word combos.

      After this articles are created, some simple spinning/keyword substitutions and thousands of articles, with tons and tons of unique keyword stings are created...Plus, these are "real" articles.

      Here's an example:

      Write 100 GOOD paragraphs about dog training tips.

      Include sentences/phrases in these paragraphs, such as:

      Whether you're training a greyhound in Denver or a poodle in Chicago...

      Spin each word highlighted with different colors with the obvious options, to provide massive keyword diversity.

      Now take each article and call it something like "5 Surefire Dog Training Tips", spinning the article title a bit. In the resource box, post a link to "For all 100 Dog Training Tips click here". (Crude example)

      100 paragraphs is about the same effort as 20 articles, plus the basic spinning, yet my method can produce 1000s of articles, with a high degree of unique info when comparing any single article to any other single article.
      Signature
      Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
      Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3355612].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        Include sentences/phrases in these paragraphs, such as:

        Whether you're training a greyhound in Denver or a poodle in Chicago...

        Spin each word highlighted with different colors with the obvious options, to provide massive keyword diversity.
        I completely see that this can work, and why.

        I'd never do this again, myself, partly for the simple reason that the constraint of having to write like that, in "readily spinnable form" produces far less readable, stylistic, syndicable content. Yes, it can produce stuff that you can use in hundreds of different article directories: I see this. It can't so easily get you syndicated to the authority sites on which my work increasingly gets re-published, to catch the pre-targeted traffic and context-relevant, high-PR backlinks on which my steadily growing residual income is built.

        I also disliked doing this sort of writing for the few months that I tried it: to be honest, on some level, it actually offended me.

        To me, it's all "rinse-and-repeat"; it's not really building a quality-asset-based business.

        I also have an intrinsic distaste for it, because I don't think it's adding anything of value, overall, to the web: it's just littering it for entirely contrived reasons.

        I respect, of course, that some people don't agree with my perspectives on these and related subjects.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3356068].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author MarkPereira
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        Here's an example:

        Write 100 GOOD paragraphs about dog training tips.

        Include sentences/phrases in these paragraphs, such as:

        Whether you're training a greyhound in Denver or a poodle in Chicago...

        Spin each word highlighted with different colors with the obvious options, to provide massive keyword diversity.

        Now take each article and call it something like "5 Surefire Dog Training Tips", spinning the article title a bit. In the resource box, post a link to "For all 100 Dog Training Tips click here". (Crude example)

        100 paragraphs is about the same effort as 20 articles, plus the basic spinning, yet my method can produce 1000s of articles, with a high degree of unique info when comparing any single article to any other single article.
        You hit the nail on the head with your example Kurt. The beauty of writing a 'top tips' kind of article is that you can mix and match any number of paragraphs and the article would make perfect sense. Moreover, if you use nested spinning properly you can literally create 1000's of good quality articles and dominate a niche.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3356268].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post


        Include sentences/phrases in these paragraphs, such as:

        Whether you're training a greyhound in Denver or a poodle in Chicago...

        Spin each word highlighted with different colors with the obvious options, to provide massive keyword diversity.
        In case anyone missed this, this is actually a very powerful spinning technique and I included it in this example on purpose.

        If you notice I used both a list of "dog breeds" and US cities TWICE, and TWICE is the key here.

        Here's the math, let's say you have a list of 50 US states and use them to spin sentences. This of course gives you 50 different variations.

        But what happens if we use them TWICE in the same sentence:

        We'll get 50 x 50 combinations. That's 2500 possible variations, using the same 50 keyword list.

        Of course, some of these combos will be dupes and not look/read all that well, and will end up something like this:

        Whether you are seeking a vet in Colorado or in Colorado...

        You can ignore these repetitions and understand that you're still getting tons more combos that make sense across all your other pages.

        ...Or you can use the same concept, just not reuse the same keywords in the same sentence, which still gives you the same benefit.

        ...Or use them as I did in my first example, mixing "city" with "breed". 100 US cities with 50 dog breeds is 5000 possible combos. And since in my example I used "or", creating two instances of city/breed, that's:
        5000 x 5000 = 25,000,000 (25 million) possibilities, from two simple lists containing a total of only 150 keywords (100 cities, 50 dog breeds).

        If you submit the very same article that hasn't been spun, you have 1 keyword possibility. 1 vs. 25,000,000.

        When writing, think about lists of potential keywords that you can use together with other lists of keywords, as this will give you the most bang for the buck when going for as many keyword combos as possible.

        And this also addresses Google's use of "text vectors" when determining if documents are unique. Did you know Copyscape is the same company that helps Google with Google Alerts? Google has a good working relationship with Copyscape and to think Google doesn't employ some of these strategies for doop content in their rankings would be a little naive, IMO.

        Also IMO, I believe the length of the text vectors (a fancy name for text strings) is 4-6 words, meaning the more unique strings of 4-6 words you have on your pages, the more likely Google will see them as unique.

        If you are interested in the concept of how Google uses text vectors, just google "Google text vectors".

        And breaking up text vectors is another advantage of using the concepts of spinning text.

        Another SEO issue that's overcome with my earlier post of spinning entire paragraphs is that the page length and file sizes of each page created will vary.

        For some pages/articles, include 7-8-9 chunks. In others, 3-4-5. The results will be some articles have only 3 chunks, while others are 3x bigger with 9 chunks, which will affect not only word count and keyword densities in a variety of ways, it will also affect the file size of the documents, giving a wider variation, which is a major SEO strategy of mine...I like variety.
        Signature
        Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
        Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3361918].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Benjamin Ehinger
    Spinning, in my opinion, is a waste of time. This is the strategy I use posted in this thread:

    http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ne-income.html

    For the other smaller article directories, which I submit to about 25 total when it is all said and done, I change the title and that is it. So I use the same article, but just change the title.

    I don't know if this is considered a good strategy by the experts or not, but what I know is that it brings me traffic and it makes me money.

    Benjamin Ehinger
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3352804].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Originally Posted by dp40oz View Post

    If im submitting my article to 100 article directories in order to obtain backlinks why would it be better to spin the article rather then submit the same article to all the directories?
    Some article-focused sites check for uniqueness (using tools/services like copyscape) and some people like to spin articles just to increase their uniqueness under such checks.

    The other reason some people spin articles is so that they don't need to spend time on new content just to spread their links across a wide range of keywords. i,e you have 100 keywords to promote in your niche - you can get a link for every single one by spinning the article rather than 100 links all with the same anchor text. Of course that reduces the impact for each keyword but then that's why you create more content.

    It's all just part of the many different and varied ways people like to try to mix up their marketing.

    Unless you're finding problems not using spinning then it's not the sort of thing you need to do just for the sake of it - but there are uses which may make sense in some situations.

    Andy
    Signature

    nothing to see here.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353399].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Mission0ps
    A reason why spinning may be beneficial is not only the link juice that it gives but also the reader relevance. For instance the ability to spin the long tail keyword may give you the ability to have as an anchor the exact match of the search term, that in turn may bring you closer to the clickthrough.

    Remember if your article is spun well enough you can have 1 article rule them all. Spun articles do get clickthroughs as well you know it's not all about linkjuice!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353415].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ArticlePrince
    Spinning anchor text links makes a huge difference, and MANUALLY spinning articles in great for submitting to blog networks. Otherwise, waste of time. Of course, you could just write an 800 word article, submit it to EZA, go articles, and article base and let dozens of Ezine publishers do your hard work for you.

    Depends on how quickly you need results.
    Signature
    FREE 500 word articles, PM me for yours!
    (4 days only!)
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353421].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ArticlePrince
    The problem with using directories is that it is blatantly obvious that the link is unnatural, which is why Google says that it isn't 'relevant', a poor choice of words on their end. Basically, it just means that it isn't like the directory linked to you because your site was relevant to theirs.

    On the other hand, private blogs link to you because you are relevant to their site... Hopefully that clears it up slightly.
    Signature
    FREE 500 word articles, PM me for yours!
    (4 days only!)
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353577].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Excuse me for asking a stupid question here - but......

    How come everyone is talking to each other like they know the real fact about this but no-one has offered a scrap of supporting evidence to prove their position?

    As far as I can see - you're all wrong you can support what you're saying.

    Have an opinion - fine .... but don't talk down someone else's without something to back your own up....
    Signature

    nothing to see here.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353710].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author myob
      A rather fair question. Is it perhaps maybe these are typical views of the majority of successful, experienced, professional article marketers who commonly discuss this subject trying to correct the malformed silly notions of those who have no idea of what they're doing?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353741].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by myob View Post

        A rather fair question. Is it perhaps maybe these are typical views of the majority of successful, experienced, professional article marketers who commonly discuss this subject trying to correct the malformed silly notions of those who have no idea of what they're doing?
        No. It can't be - otherwise wouldn't they just show at least the logic behind their version of the facts?

        Just saying "i'm right. you go ahead and be wrong" helps no-one.
        Signature

        nothing to see here.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353767].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author myob
          @Andy

          Both the facts and logic have been discussed in this thread and referenced. Experienced writers have been there, done that as explained in detail here and in countless other threads. But take what you will from experience, or go and get some experience yourself.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353830].message }}
          • I'm popping some popcorn and watching this thread closely.

            It's better than the movie Cobra with Sylvester Stallone...well almost, that was a pretty darn good movie.
            Signature



            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353849].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
            Originally Posted by myob View Post

            @Andy

            Both the facts and logic have been discussed in this thread and referenced. Experienced writers have been there, done that as explained in detail here and in countless other threads. But take what you will from experience, or go and get some experience yourself.
            hhmmm

            ok - so my 10 years and 1000's of articles don't count? I haven't even stated what my opinion is on this matter.

            So - if I'm supposed to take the 'advice' of less experienced people and use their comments as fact for my own business?

            I don't think so.

            But since it's been conclusively explained in other threads (apparently) then there's obviously nothing left to say - since some people obviously know it all already.
            Signature

            nothing to see here.

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353851].message }}
            • Body blow...body blow...left...right.

              (for those born after 1990, check out Mike Tyson's Punch Out ...it's "off da chain", as you say)
              Signature



              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353874].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author myob
              Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

              hhmmm

              ok - so my 10 years and 1000's of articles don't count? I haven't even stated what my opinion is on this matter.

              So - if I'm supposed to take the 'advice' of less experienced people and use their comments as fact for my own business?

              I don't think so.

              But since it's been conclusively explained in other threads (apparently) then there's obviously nothing left to say - since some people obviously know it all already.
              Judging by your stamina and persistence, may I submit perhaps you have 1 year of experience over and over for the last 10 years and spun that same article thousands of times?


              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353879].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                Originally Posted by myob View Post

                Judging by your stamina and persistence, may I submit perhaps you have 1 year of experience over and over for the last 10 years and spun that same article thousands of times?
                You can submit what you like - you may be more productive submitting articles than attacks on me.

                I'm sure I've been called much worse than any crap you can come up with but if you're really bored and want to attack me for calling out your buddies then fill your boots. I won't bother responding to any more of this stupid banter.
                Signature

                nothing to see here.

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353902].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author myob
                  Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

                  You can submit what you like - you may be more productive submitting articles than attacks on me.

                  I'm sure I've been called much worse than any crap you can come up with but if you're really bored and want to attack me for calling out your buddies then fill your boots. I won't bother responding to any more of this stupid banter.
                  Andy,

                  I was just clowning around. No offense intended. Here is something that could help. Dunno for sure, but my experience has highly indicated that posting quality, substantial articles to the directories gets them picked up by high pr sites for quality backlinks. Spinning short articles lean on content does not have the same effect.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3354025].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

              I haven't even stated what my opinion is on this matter.
              That's probably why nobody's arguing with your opinion, Andy.

              Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

              So - if I'm supposed to take the 'advice' of less experienced people and use their comments as fact for my own business?
              I wouldn't, in your position.

              When I started off, I made the mistake of taking the "advice" of people who were all (by definition) more experienced than I was, but sadly without being able to judge how reliable their "information" was, little realising (at that stage) that it made perfectly good sense that in a field of endeavour at which so few people starting out ever end up making a good living from it (as I now have, myself), the consensus of opinion was actually pretty likely to be a deeply misguided one.

              There's plenty of evidence, discussion of testing, and so on from people with far more experience than me (I'm thinking in particular of Bill Platt) in many other threads, and quite a bit of highly relevant incidental comment (about testing and evidence) from JayXtreme, Allan Graves and others in this thread. I do realise, of course, that (a) you've read it before, and (b) it'll probably (and rightly, I dare say) be of limited interest to you, compared with your own opinion, whatever that may be. I'm mentioning it just by way of pointing out that there's actually a whole lot more than just "personal opinion" knocking about this forum on these subjects.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353918].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                I'm mentioning it just by way of pointing out that there's actually a whole lot more than just "personal opinion" knocking about this forum on these subjects.
                I know - thanks

                Why didn't you just say that
                Signature

                nothing to see here.

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353939].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

                  Why didn't you just say that
                  I was watching TV ... I said it when I got back ...
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353945].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      Excuse me for asking a stupid question here - but......

      How come everyone is talking to each other like they know the real fact about this but no-one has offered a scrap of supporting evidence to prove their position?

      As far as I can see - you're all wrong you can support what you're saying.

      Have an opinion - fine .... but don't talk down someone else's without something to back your own up....
      Yep...A lot of leaps of logic in this thread.
      Signature
      Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
      Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3355581].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Ian Varnava
    As long as there are lazy asses (which there always will be) looking for push-button solutions, there will be a market for 'content spinners'. The majority of the people who make (and will make) serious money from this is the actual creators and sellers of those 'content spinners', not those who use them.

    In the meanwhile, we have the likes of Alexa Smith laughing all the way to the bank...
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3353960].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author alcymart
    There are advantages as one posted here, but Only if you don't output garbage. Just yesterday I was reading an article which had very bad grammar and beats me why it even got accepted, but there are article directories that accept just about anything which I won't name here.

    Personally, I like having full control of my articles thus use a spinner only for the antonyms part when rewriting the same article. It's sometimes as much as a chore than rewriting from scratch depending on how many words it contains.

    Bernard
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3356315].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author darkwizgemz
    I'm not really on spinning. If you've got your word then you've got what you need.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3356374].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
      Originally Posted by darkwizgemz View Post

      I'm not really on spinning. If you've got your word then you've got what you need.
      Kurt and Alexa both know their stuff.

      If you read their posts carefully, there's no argument.

      Just a different mindset and business model.

      I'm using Alexa's system at the moment and it's working.

      I'm fascinated by both approaches.
      Signature
      'If you hear a voice within you say "you cannot paint," then by all means paint and that voice will be silenced.' Vincent Van Gogh.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3356540].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Originally Posted by oneplusone View Post

        Kurt and Alexa both know their stuff.

        If you read their posts carefully, there's no argument.

        Just a different mindset and business model.

        I'm using Alexa's system at the moment and it's working.

        I'm fascinated by both approaches.
        Well said,

        I've always said there's a place for spinning, I never said it was bad. I just don't like people that take my articles and spin them, because as Kindsvater, the Internet Lawyer has said, it is illegal. There are many that mistakenly think this is fine and use this excuse to flog their wares.

        So many people use article directories for backlinks and other bits and bobs, as you know Zac, by following her method, you actually find the hungry crowd. That has brought me a lot of success, her too and many others.

        Nothing wrong with spinning but it is just a different model. I just don't see why there are absolutely no "article syndication is wrong" or "is article syndication better" threads. It always comes back to spinning and is it right?

        Do you want to spin stuff or not? To me, it's just frankly an irrelevance. I've tried and tested various ways and the model I use works best for me. It may not for others but it does for me and that way, is what Alexa recommends.

        "Why is spinning better?", well for me it isn't. For others, it is. Like you said, why waste our time argueing about it?
        Signature

        Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3356846].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by oneplusone View Post

        Kurt and Alexa both know their stuff.

        If you read their posts carefully, there's no argument.

        Just a different mindset and business model.

        I'm using Alexa's system at the moment and it's working.

        I'm fascinated by both approaches.
        I've been using Kurt's method for 10 years and it's been working that whole time. I also write ad-hoc stuff for myself and clients for publishing in physical magazines and papers so, yes I would not be thinking about how well they spin - but that's just because these things are tools and strategies and are not designed to be one-size fits all approaches.

        The only thing that really gets me on this entire subject is when people just blindly generalise their comment and say things like "spinning is bad because it produces crap unreadable content" - which is obviously NOT the case in the same way as saying "driving a car is bad because cars kill people". It's not the tool that defines the quality of the output - it's how you use it.

        Spinning can be as simple as just changing a few words to refocus the content in a slightly different manner or it can be a piece of software that changes every single word and creates a completely different meaning.

        You can spin for uniqueness, keyword/phrase cycliing or to tailor your content. It's all optional and completely variable. Maybe you just want to use different signature wording to test which get the better ctr - some people would call that spinning. Some people would only call it spinning if you let a tool do the changes.

        It's all open to creative uses and interpretations.

        But the long and short of it is - it's not inherently bad - no matter what your favourite writing guru sold you as 'the best' way.

        Andy
        Signature

        nothing to see here.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3361084].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
          Hi Andy,

          I hope you're well. I trust you did read my post at #58?

          People like you, Kurt and Warriorkay and many others, spin well and properly. I've never had or said I had a problem with what you do or it in general.

          My arguement is that some people see the only reason for article directories is for backlinks, they often mistakenly think they have the same PR of the homepage. This is not what article directories are solely for and certainly not what they were originally intended for.

          As I already have said in this thread, I have no problem with spinning and I dare say your version of spinning is far more profitable than my version of syndication. You have 10 years on me, so how can I argue that?

          My problem has and always will be those who take my article, spin and resubmit it to the same directory. This does go on, I know because one Warrior that sells spinning software did so to one of my articles, showed me how he'd done it to others and argued this made him the better marketer.

          I do not think spinning is wrong, worse or whatever, when done the way you and others do it. I'd also like to say that "my favourite writing guru" didn't show me syndication. I discovered it before I came here by guest posting on blogs, no one told me about it and at that point I believed blindly that the whole idea was to mass submit as many articles to as many directories as I could. I only heard of the term syndication when I joined here and found others doing it.

          Just in case your or anyone else's point may have been directed in my direction, let me make it clear again. There are many ways to spin, some are bad, some are good, there are many ways to syndicate, some are bad, some are good. There are lots of ways to write articles - some are bad, some are good.

          Either way, I don't do generalisations. I don't like them and at no point have I attacked you, Kurt or any other successful spinners.

          It's not the tool that defines the quality of the output - it's how you use it.
          ....and every comment I've ever made on this subject has been purely aimed at those that use it badly, or in the case of taking my articles and spinning them, as Brian Kindsvater has confirmed - theft.

          Not people like you.
          Signature

          Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3361257].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
            Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

            Hi Andy,

            Just in case your or anyone else's point may have been directed in my direction, let me make it clear again. There are many ways to spin, some are bad, some are good, there are many ways to syndicate, some are bad, some are good. There are lots of ways to write articles - some are bad, some are good.

            Either way, I don't do generalisations. I don't like them and at no point have I attacked you, Kurt or any other successful spinners.

            ....and every comment I've ever made on this subject has been purely aimed at those that use it badly, or in the case of taking my articles and spinning them, as Brian Kindsvater has confirmed - theft.

            Not people like you.
            Hey Richard,

            No need to apologise as far as I'm concerned - I wasn't responding to a comment you made - just making the statement that these things are great to discuss and have people weigh up the pros and cons - but when people just post "this is bad" it's not only just a matter of perspective and for some people 'wrong', it can also mislead newbies into getting the wrong idea about things and missing out on options for things which may be right for their business.

            I tend to push back against such things whether I care or not just so that people who come here and don't know any better at least get some push to consider the 'facts' that relate to them rather than just the opinions of people who they don't know and which may not be relevant to them.

            Although I didn't feel completely aligned with your perspective I do think you've made your position pretty clear and also covered what you didn't mean - so I don't see that anyone could have a problem with it per se.

            Keep on rocking..
            Andy
            Signature

            nothing to see here.

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3361478].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author zon3d
    Spinning is worthwhile and doesn't take too long to do anyway.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3356482].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by canhdong90 View Post

    what problem if I use the same resource box for 100 articles? Does Google think it spam?
    No.

    It has absolutely no relevance to Google, SEO, ranking, or anything like that at all.

    It's extremely inadvisable, though, for any number of other reasons. Here are some threads about article resource boxes which may help you to appreciate why this would be such an inappropriate idea: this one, this one, this one, this one and this one.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3357003].message }}

Trending Topics