Why "guru bashing" is so popular

by Paul Myers 155 replies
In another thread, Jason Mathews asked:
So why then are only the IM gurus being bashed?
That is an excellent question. One that I think it might be useful to discuss.

Here's my take on it.

It doesn't only happen in this industry. If you could see the backstabbing and badmouthing that speakers in many fields do to each other, or even the fights among folks in the self-help industry, you'd realize... It's everywhere.

It is, however, much more visible in the Internet marketing field than in most others. There are several reasons for this. First, some reasons that aren't necessarily valid.

It's been suggested that the visibility of the bashing is because it's well-founded. That, in fact, the people being bashed deserve it. That's certainly true in some cases, but they're a pretty small minority, in my experience.

Second, the fact that a "lot" of people seem to jump on the same bashwagon might seem to lend their claims some credence. I would suggest that you look at the evidence, rather than the number of people saying a thing. You'll see why the numbers don't matter in a minute.

Third, the apparently compelling arguments some folks make can sound really, really good. The problem is that one doesn't often see enough of the context and the facts to know if the argument is valid, or if it's just someone who's good at presenting it.

Now, why isn't this more visible in other industries?

For starters, there are very few fields in which people are so quick to assume they have the necessary skills and experience to challenge the top experts. Only a fool would read 3 books on archaeology and think they were qualified to "debunk" a theory that was accepted by the majority of people in the discipline.

Along with that is the tradition in many industries and areas of study of keeping one's personal beefs private.

Then there's the degree of separation between forums where the real experts discuss their subjects and where the guys who've read 3 books on it discuss them.

It happens everywhere. You just don't see it, because the players are too careful of their reputations. Presenting a credible refutation of a theory is accepted. Bashing someone as a scammer takes a lot more proof to be taken seriously.

And it will get you sued faster in other fields.

I know of feuds among some of the very top offline marketing names in the world, and you will never hear about them. The same with some of the top people in this field. They don't play the bashing game publicly, but all is not sweetness and light with everyone in the business.

Why is it so visible in this industry, then? Why does it seem there's always someone who wants to bash the "Big Dogs?"

Marketing is "fuzzy" form of art/science/black magic. If something sounds good to you, there is a near 100% certainty that it will sound good to a lot of other people.

Next is that a lot of people confuse results with skill, and experience with expertise. I think it was Elmer Hurlstone who recently reminded me that some folks consider the same year of experience, repeated ten times, to qualify as ten years of experience.

People who have the same year of experience, and keep repeating that year, are often the loudest in proclaiming their definitive knowledge on a thing. Including when faced with someone who's spent 5 years trying and testing and proving many more things than that first person will ever do.

On top of that, there is a ton of information out there on the subject, and most people consuming it have very little of the experience needed to properly evaluate that information. They read a bit and think that makes them experts.

The low barrier to entry in this field ensures that we're going to see a lot of people in it with extremely poor critical thinking skills.

Add to the mix the "lotto mentality." The belief that they're going to strike it rich, followed by the painful realization that it just ain't that easy. That fosters, in the sloppy thinkers' minds, the idea that the folks who made it big did so by cheating.

Hell, if New Guy couldn't make $10,000 in a year, Big Dog must have scammed a lot of people to make $1,000,000 in a week, right?

Not. But they believe it. It provides a comforting refuge from acknowledging that they just didn't get it right. They can escape judging themselves if they can just push the judgment off on someone else.

There's the element of competition. A very large chunk of the people who get into this business think there's a limited amount of room at the top, and they feel they get an edge every time someone else gets dragged down.

There are the people who play to the disillusioned, the folks who need to believe someone else is bad so they don't have to believe they simply screwed up. Or quit too soon. Or whatever the reason is that they didn't get what they wanted.

These folks attract their market by giving them what that market wants, desperately: External validation of their excuses.

There are mean and petty people. Same as in any field.

There are people with unrealistic expectations who assume that anyone failing to meet those expectations must have some sinister or malign basis for that failure.

Any field that involves making money will attract some people who are desperate. Low cost of entry, high perceived potential, and BANG! People getting in over their heads, left and right. Betting it all on an obvious sure thing... that doesn't pan out.

For many of them, it's a way of life. They can only maintain it by the same rationalization as the other folks who "fail" - blame someone else. And get people to agree with you, so you can keep that band-aid on your ego a bit longer.

There are folks who just don't understand things and say stuff that's wrong, purely out of that inexperience.

There are a ton of people who think that they are the market. That their personal preferences are representative of the world as a whole, or at least the part of it they deal with.

And, again, everyone thinks they're an expert.

Now, add the element that lets all that steam and hot air find release:

Open discussion forums where people at every level of experience congregate, and where folks can say very nearly anything they want.

Once the hot air has been released, there are usually other people feeling the same frustration, hostility, confusion or whatever other motivating push is involved, and who'll jump in with both feet in their mouths.

Once they've taken a public stand, most people won't back down. Some will let it fade away, some will escalate their claims, and some will develop fixations that last for years. But very few will look at the evidence and say, if it applies, "I was wrong on that."

After all, they're experts, right?

The same people tend to be involved in most of the bashing going on at any given time. If there are 10,000 people happy with a product, and 30 people unhappy, there's a good chance that 15 of those 30 will be involved in bashing it.

The ones that are happy with it usually won't push back. They might think the person has one of those problems that just happens. Or that they had unrealistic expectations. Or that they're just nuts, and who wants to waste time with unreasonable people?

Positive people usually won't bother with negative people, and vice versa. So, the negative voices, which have a much greater perceived stake in proving their case, take on the perception of being the majority.

That's why you should never believe things based on the number of people saying them.

And this is why "guru bashing" is so common in this industry.

Well, that's my view on it, anyway. I'm sure some folks will have other opinions.


Paul
#main internet marketing discussion forum #guru bashing #popular
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel E Taylor
    Very well put.

    In my industry/culture we just call them
    haters.

    Forget IM. you can find these people in almost
    every aspect of life.

    Down to the people who mean mug you for no other
    reason than because you have a nice car or a
    high confidence persona.

    It's just human nature in low self esteem/confidence people
    to bash someone who "gets it", merely because they don't.

    Daniel
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    else is an illusion.

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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Daniel,

      Generally speaking, I agree. It seemed that it might be useful to outline the specific reasons, if only so that folks could get an idea of which type they're dealing with.

      In the end, it's all the same thing, as you say.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author PaintChip
        And.... some people just like using the guru's name or the name of their products in their blog posts, etc. To capture some search engine hits. Very childish.... but still one of those tactics that some folks think works in their favor.
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    • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
      Originally Posted by Jeff Hope View Post

      As such, they reflect our humanity, both the positive and the negative.
      What a great perspective Jeff, I like it very much.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sean A McAlister
      Hey Paul,

      I could not have said it any better
      great post!

      "Not the fruit of experience, but experience
      itself, is the end"
      --Walter Pater

      "When a workman knows the use of his
      tools, he can make a door as well as a
      window"
      -George Elliot


      Good stuff Paul!

      Sean
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    • Originally Posted by Daniel E Taylor View Post

      Very well put.

      In my industry/culture we just call them
      haters.

      Forget IM. you can find these people in almost
      every aspect of life.

      Down to the people who mean mug you for no other
      reason than because you have a nice car or a
      high confidence persona.

      It's just human nature in low self esteem/confidence people
      to bash someone who "gets it", merely because they don't.

      Daniel
      You are right, Daniel. There are also those who just like to talk. They don't know what they are talking about, but they talk, anyway. They are gossipers.

      I used to work with a lady who is a very likeable person. However, she was one of these gossipers. According to her, all the policemen in our small town have had extramarital affairs (I know some of them, personally. One is a very STRONG Christian man with high morals.) She also said that my mom's former boss (the AP Newspaper editor) had a son who had gotten into trouble with the law, but that was kept out of the paper, because his dad's the editor. John (the editor) and his wife Patsy adopted two girls from Korea. Those are their ONLY children. But Shirley knows everything. I couldn't convince her that she was wrong about John.

      Some people just like to talk about other people. The Internet simply gives them another "outlet" for their gossiping and gives them more people to gossip about. That doesn't mean that everything they say is true. I suspect gurus get bashed because the gossipers envy them and wish they were in THEIR place. Especially, like Paul pointed out, if they "tried it" and it 'didn't work' for them.
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    • Profile picture of the author theaffiliategeek
      Originally Posted by Jeff Hope View Post

      This forum and others, along with other social gathering places online, are but microcosms of the offline world.

      As such, they reflect our humanity, both the positive and the negative.
      Jeff,
      In 30 words, you said it all. It's quite a rare talent, being able to say much with few words. Well done.
      Pat
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Ryan
    Wow. Great post Paul!

    Why is it so visible in this industry, then? Why does it seem there's always someone who wants to bash the "Big Dogs?"
    I'm not sure if you're familiar with the early years of the
    'adult' end of marketing online - but, one of the more
    common ways of making a name for yourself (if you were
    a company that had an affiliate prog.) was to start a
    pissing match on the message boards.

    At the time, it was almost always the YNot msg boards
    and sponsor after sponsor would say that this sponsor
    after that sponsor was skimming, scamming or whatever.

    The smart move at the time was to move all one's
    promotions to the sponsor that was spouting off the
    loudest and had the most support! Why? Well, they
    dare not avoid paying out and they dare not cut any-
    one short cause it was called on a public forum where
    the most proficient affiliate marketers congregated.

    As the years have gone by and opposed to then...I
    rarely signup for private affiliate programs. Sorry, I
    want 3rd parties who are in the business of paying
    affiliates..not idiots who say they're going to pay
    their affiliates and never do.

    My only point then, I guess, in making this post is
    that at one point - bashing was a norm to building a
    biz online - now, bashing (IMO) - is an inadequacy
    response to the perceived norm.

    Matt
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Monty
      Well, it does seem easiest to attack those who have the largest targets on their backs, I assume.

      Basically, if you don't have a thick skin, this is not the business for you.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Paul, you've basically summed up everything that's wrong with Internet
      marketing in your post. It goes far beyond guru bashing. It goes to the core
      of the reason why so many people fail.

      Myself? I've been wrong about more things when it comes to marketing
      online than I care to admit. I used to be one of those "It can't be me so it
      must be the gurus" guys...until I sat my ass down and really put the time into
      my business that I was supposed to.

      I still don't have all the answers and I still do plenty of things wrong. But I
      do enough right that it's taken me to where I am today, which is still farther
      along than 95% of the folks who give this thing a shot...all because of one
      thing that I don't do.

      I don't blame others for my failures.

      And these days...my failures are fewer and fewer.

      I've said this to everybody I've ever met online.

      If I can make money online, anybody can.

      And trust me...I ain't no guru.
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      • Profile picture of the author Matt Ryan
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Myself? I've been wrong about more things when it comes to marketing
        online than I care to admit.
        I still don't have all the answers and I still do plenty of things wrong.
        Hey Steve -

        I don't think that anybody who's been trying to make any
        type of income online could disagree with these statements.

        They're the truth of finding success online mainly because
        there is ALWAYS something to learn.

        Matt
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Paul, you've basically summed up everything that's wrong with Internet marketing in your post. It goes far beyond guru bashing. It goes to the core of the reason why so many people fail.
        You're paying attention, Steven.

        You're not supposed to do that...


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
          Great post as usual, Paul.

          It would be fascinating to know how many of the bashers really believe the negative stuff they spread vs. those intentionally doing it to get attention by mentioning famous names.

          I think another cause of this is people making assumptions based on just knowing bits of what's going on- for example, guru X works with gurus Y and Z since they know each other (completely natural), therefore they are all part of a secret conspiracy to take all our money and crush our dreams and probably want to poison our pets, too.
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        • Profile picture of the author Colin Evans
          Is there any difference between guru bashing and employees bashing their boss?

          Let's face it, most employees think the boss is an idiot and they know better (especially those who have been in the exact same job for years)...
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          • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
            POST OF THE DECADE!!!!

            hands down, case closed, no further questions your honor!

            Eric
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

              POST OF THE DECADE!!!!

              hands down, case closed, no further questions your honor!

              Eric
              Eric, that's what happens when you let a mind like Paul Myers' out loose
              into the world.

              There's just nothing to add because he pretty much said it all.
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              • Profile picture of the author ctutt
                Oh Paul! You know the "squeeky wheel" always gets the attention especially if it's on an attractive (promising) Band Wagon! Haven't you done the same thing???

                UhHuh, I thought so!
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                • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
                  Fantastic Post. This is the first thread I have ever rated.

                  However, this does give me a great idea for a game:

                  Who remembers "Whack A Mole"?

                  Imagine replacing the moles with top names in any field. What a blast.

                  Had a bad day? Your Adsense tanked? Your blog got hacked? All 3 customers demanded a refund? Take it out on John Reese the minute he pops his head up. There's Mike Filsaime, whack him good. Now up pops Willie Crawford, smack him a good one.

                  Should I patent this?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
                    Oh damn!

                    I didn't realize until after I rated this 5 stars that the OP is that grumpy old git Myers. Now he'll be insufferable. Better get out my polo mallet.
                    Signature
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                • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
                  Paul,

                  I think the instant nature of the internet and forums doesn't help.

                  Pre-internet, how many times did you think

                  "I'm going to write them a nasty letter"

                  But, because of the time needed to put pen to paper, put the letter in an envelope, stick on the stamp and walk to the letter box, you had time to cool off, or at least reconsider if what you wrote was a good idea.

                  Now, in less than 10 seconds you can write and publish
                  "Mr XYZ is a scammer".

                  When I started out I was also guilty of a bit of guru bashing, some deserved, some not. It was more a case of not understanding how things work.

                  For example, I sent loads of emails to a support address and got no reply. I knew nothing about spam filters, whitelisting and delivery rates so I was really aggrieved (there was no phone number).

                  Turns out he hadn't got my emails and when I finally got hold of him he sorted out the problem immediately.

                  So, my best piece of advice to people who think they have been scammed by a guru is, before crying "Foul!", think what could have gone wrong with the guru's delivery/communication process and investigate. You might find it's just a simple glitch, oversight or misunderstanding.

                  Martin
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Oh Paul! You know the "squeeky wheel" always gets the attention especially if it's on an attractive (promising) Band Wagon! Haven't you done the same thing???

                  UhHuh, I thought so!
                  Yep. Absolutely. In fact, that's one of the central themes of one of my books. ("The Piggyback Report.") It's called harnessing market energy.

                  But not from any of the kinds of motivations I listed, and never in a way that tries to profit from damaging someone else. Nor do I confuse my opinions with fact, or make allegations I can't substantiate.

                  And, unlike you, I put my name behind my opinions.


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Simon,

                    As far as ad copy, one could get the same impression from the WSO in your sig file that you describe as being a problem with other letters. The trick is knowing which is real and which isn't.

                    Yes, some people exaggerate their claims. Some people understate them and still sound hypish. That stuff needs to be looked at on the basis of fact, not "What it sounds like to me." If they lied, call them on it, and be prepared to back up your claims.

                    And if you want to be taken seriously on issues like this, put your real name in your profile. Otherwise, you're just another anonymous voice talking about generic possibilities of badness.


                    Paul
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                    • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      Simon,

                      As far as ad copy, one could get the same impression from the WSO in your sig file that you describe as being a problem with other letters. The trick is knowing which is real and which isn't.

                      Yes, some people exaggerate their claims. Some people understate them and still sound hypish. That stuff needs to be looked at on the basis of fact, not "What it sounds like to me." If they lied, call them on it, and be prepared to back up your claims.

                      And if you want to be taken seriously on issues like this, put your real name in your profile. Otherwise, you're just another anonymous voice talking about generic possibilities of badness.


                      Paul
                      I love this guy. I am unofficially a Zen Redneck wannabe

                      seriously. Keep it coming cuz.

                      Eric
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                    • Profile picture of the author Simon_Sezs
                      I respect you Paul. I really do. You are one of the few IMers that I even subscribe to. But stating that I need to have my real name in my profile and that it would somehow validate me and what I claim to do as somehow credible is ridiculous.

                      The thought that if I stated that my name was something like "mike smith" I would somehow be considered more credible has no marked bearing on my credibility.

                      Actions speak a ton louder than "names" anyways. And anonymity provides me the ability to do things without someone having the ability to "google my name" find what sites I own and duplicate them.

                      Or worse still, have some other blackhat guy peeved at anything I say find me and DDOS my sites (or have my domains shut down) or a bevy of other not so nice things that people do to each other every day.

                      So, if you want to talk to me offline, that is one thing. Online, I would prefer to stay as the anonymous voice talking about generic (which by the way are very real) possibilities of badness.

                      And I will even send you the generic possibilites of badness complimentary for you to decide for yourself....just pm me...
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                  • Guru bashing?

                    I sense a tie-in.

                    Frank Kern recently talked about a rubbernecking marketing technique based on the negative side of human nature. As a guru, he thinks you should profit from it.

                    Maybe the not-so-successful do the same with guru-bashing, but in their manner.

                    Hmmmm...

                    At least gurus get money from exploiting the negative. The not-so-successful guru-basher gets some attention and that's about it.

                    Attention.

                    Can you eat attention or pay bills with it? Maybe that's why gurus are gurus and the not-so-successful are... well... not so successful. They focus on and seek different values than gurus. Gurus like money.

                    Michael
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                    Know thyself...
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                    • Profile picture of the author Ricky Parker
                      Good post.

                      And it's popular because deep down there is a lil' bit of E-Thug in all of us.

                      YO!

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                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                      Martin,

                      Excellent point. And, interestingly, the folks with the least sense are the ones most likely to ignore the "cooling off" factor.

                      Kevin,

                      What do you mean, "will be unsufferable?" I believe you've mixed your tenses.

                      Eric,
                      I am unofficially a Zen Redneck wannabe
                      It's easy. Follow Michael Kelly's sig file advice.


                      Paul
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        Simon,
                        But stating that I need to have my real name in my profile and that it would somehow validate me and what I claim to do as somehow credible is ridiculous.
                        Nothing of the kind. The thing that loses credibility when you're anonymous is your posting. You might be the bees knees at what you do, or just another big-talking cretin with an axe to grind. We don't know, and can't reasonably determine that.

                        You could be the greatest guy in the world, or a new user name for one of the slime that have scammed the hell out of people here over the years. Again, we don't know.

                        Barring that, we have one reasonable course of action: Treat anything said by any anonymous entity as something said by no-one. A hypothetical comment from a hypothetical person.

                        You may have excellent reasons for not using a real name. You just need to be aware that those reasons carry a cost: For any sensible purpose of people in this forum, you don't exist.

                        You're a figment.

                        "Are you a good figment or a bad figment?"

                        "Why, I'm not a figment at all!"


                        You ain't Dorothy. I ain't Toto. And this ain't Oz.

                        You get to play the game any way you like, but you don't get to set the rules. It takes a long time to get credibility for an anonymous entity.


                        Paul
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                        • Profile picture of the author Simon_Sezs
                          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


                          You get to play the game any way you like, but you don't get to set the rules. It takes a long time to get credibility for an anonymous entity.


                          Paul
                          Paul, that is fair enough. I will take my lumps for being anonymous. But once again, unless you see and talk to the person personally there are no real guarantees that who you think you are talking to is truly the person they say they are. That is the only point I am making. It would be just as easy for me to post a picture of someone in my town, call myself "Joe Frank" and voila!, I am in the stages of credibility (at least on this forum).

                          Frankly, at least from my point of view, a name on a forum is just a moniker for someone to identify you as. And the only reason why I would think someone would want to use their name is either because they were told that it would somehow make them more credible and believable OR to make a name for themself (especially on a forum that shares the stage with the bigger name marketers).

                          The real point I was making had nothing to do with what I was selling in my signature. The point I am making is that while you say that when someone calls a "guru" (a word I hate and I imagine the "gurus" hate it as well) a scammer, it may or may not be warranted. And to dismiss someone's claims and accusations based on something like "they must be jealous" or "they are trying to siphon traffic by being controversial" (also known as keyword squatting) wouldn't do someone justice who was actually trying to find the truth.

                          Personally, I don't look at "gurus" as scammers but I do judge their products on a case by case basis.

                          That said, there are plenty of "gurus" who pander their name for a quick buck and really don't deliver according to the ad copy they are promoting. And to make things worse, someone who is doing research on one of thier upcoming products can't find anything online that isn't tinted with rose colored glasses to base their decision on whether to buy or not. They buy...they read it....they realize they were duped and get pissed....which in turn has them screaming "scam".

                          The problem with IM and ads is that because of affiliates, the rules are abit different. While in a normal niche, regular people will come out of the woodwork with reviews and what not, the IM field is dominated with back scratchers that are just oozing mush. And while I may not be too proud to admit it, I am one of them. What can I say? It pays the bills.

                          Do all of the big names do it? No. But like I said before, most of these marketers aren't "spoon feeding the masses" with rhetoric about getting rich overnight.

                          Personally, I have never come outright and said "so and so's a scammer". However, I have said that "so and so's product is a piece of trash". I also "demystified the ad copy by summarizing (without giving away the product itself) what the product was about. And I said it not because I was jealous. Not because I wanted to tear someone down....Not because I was out to ruin someone's career...but because it was how I felt about a product.

                          Now, from your perspective....is that really wrong? An actual honest review as opposed to the typical reviews that most of us are actually given when we are looking for something of substance for a product? Is it really so wrong to say what you mean? After all, I don't hear anyone crying about someone writing a "I love so and so" review. There are far more of those than the former.

                          In your post, you make the statement that those that are happy don't push back. That is not necessarily true. In the service industry, usually the people who are unhappy don't push back...they simply don't return. They don't complain. They don't write a letter of unhappiness. They simply take their licks and move on. That is a fact.

                          And unfortunately, in the IM world (much like the MLM world) the pickings are ripe even when turnover is high. And since most of the "gurus" already have a marked visibility, this naturally makes them easily accessible and seen by a newbie want-to-be marketer who is hoping desperately to make money online. (Once again, I am not talking about the gurus to cater to the advanced marketers).
                          Signature
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                          • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by Simon_Sezs View Post

                            Paul, that is fair enough and something that I am willing to take into consideration. But once again, unless you see and talk to the person personally there are no real guarantees that who you think you are talking to is truly the person they say they are. That is the only point I am making. It would be just as easy for me to post a picture of someone in my town, call myself "Joe Frank" and voila!, I am in the stages of credibility (at least on this forum).

                            <snip>
                            Simon, one point I think you're missing is that over the years, these folks have built up their "Business Identity" under their real names. They've met each other personally at a variety of events and formed the normal types of relationships that folks do in the real world. I doubt many people go to offline events and wear name tags reading, "Moose Pucky" or "Ecco Warrior" or such with costume masks to hide their identity.

                            Credibilty is vital in IM, not ony for the purposes of making sales, but for JV's and other networking opportunities that can't be done hiding behind a mask. Over time, you learn bits and pieces about the personal side of the folks and hence their credibility grows. They become more trusted because they've become more real online.

                            That's especially true in the Warrior Forum, which is a "Real" community.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Simon_Sezs
                              Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                              Simon, one point I think you're missing is that over the years, these folks have built up their "Business Identity" under their real names. They've met each other personally at a variety of events and formed the normal types of relationships that folks do in the real world. I doubt many people go to offline events and wear name tags reading, "Moose Pucky" or "Ecco Warrior" or such with costume masks to hide their identity.
                              I actually understand the point he is making. And the point I am making is that from a strictly internet presence, it is ridiculous to state that a name on the forum means anything. Now, as relationships are formed (if they are formed), then phone conversations can dispel or relieve any thoughts of misgivings or suspicion. I know this because I have formed relationships in my "non-IM" niches throughout forums.

                              Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                              Credibilty is vital in IM, not ony for the purposes of making sales, but for JV's and other networking opportunities that can't be done hiding behind a mask. Over time, you learn bits and pieces about the personal side of the folks and hence their credibility grows. They become more trusted because they've become more real online.
                              Not true. Credibility is vital in the Internet marketing niche, but not so much in other niches. I have built so called credible sites in the gambling niche without having to have a identity. Why is that? Because it was the site itself that lended the credibility, not the person behind the site. Actually, it wasn't the site but where Google placed the site that made it credible.

                              I know people that are making a killing in adsense that are...you guessed it...anonymous....and they cling to their anonymity like a king would cling to his crown.

                              So, I guess credibility is important if you are hoping to gather a following on a forum but not so much if you are selling rhapsody subscriptions to the general public.

                              The idea that you have to be have a visible persona online in order to be considered "credible" is not true for anything other than internet marketing. And then again, it is still not true in Internet marketing unless you are hoping to BRAND your name as you can create all sorts of believable personas for your sites (it is all in the marketing).

                              Like I said before...I will take my lumps and all that goes with it by staying anonymous. But if you truly believe that by having a real name somehow makes you more credible (or more importantly real), I have some prime sea side real estate that I would like to show you in Kansas.
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                              • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
                                Banned
                                The idea that you have to be have a visible persona online in order to be considered "credible" is not true for anything other than internet marketing.
                                Hogwash - no real, successful business is built without establishing credibilty and that includes the person or people behind it. I've sat here thinking long and hard of even one business, in any market, online or off that achieved success anonymously and I can't think of any.

                                But if you truly believe that by having a real name somehow makes you more credible (or more importantly real)
                                Having a real name is part of building credibility - not the end all to it. And really, that's all Paul was talking about. It's one of many factors over time that lends credibility to individuals and businesses.

                                If you choose not to use a real name, that's certainly your right in this forum. No one is forcing you to use one or suggesting you can't participate anonymously. What is being suggested is that in this forum, totally anonymous members don't seem to be taken seriously or do well as members.
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                                • Profile picture of the author zerofill
                                  Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                                  Hogwash - no real, successful business is built without establishing credibilty and that includes the person or people behind it. I've sat here thinking long and hard of even one business, in any market, online or off that achieved success anonymously and I can't think of any.
                                  Billing companies in telecom hehe...3rd party billing companies that do rates and check billing agreements by OCN numbers. Billing concepts is big but there are a bunch of nobody companies out there too that make money hand over fist. They only need to establish credibility with a couple nobody rbocs that have routes. Most of the time they don't even have to establish credibility. Just have the ability to do whatever they need at the cheapest price heh.

                                  So 95% of the companies and people billed by them don't even know they exist. Because their charges end up on a carrier bill...passed down through 20 parties...

                                  I know most of this probably doesn't make sense...but there are companies that seem to remain totally hidden in the telecom world. Dirtiest bottm feeding *******s are in Telecom heh.

                                  Companies every day go up and publish numbers for conference rooms etc...get a kickback from a carrier in a high toll area for passing traffic and don't have to prove a damn thing to anyone.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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                                    Originally Posted by zerofill View Post

                                    They only need to establish credibility with a couple nobody rbocs that have routes. Most of the time they don't even have to establish credibility. Just have the ability to do whatever they need at the cheapest price heh.
                                    LOL - but as you mentioned, somewhere along the line, the credibilty factor comes into play. Maybe not to the end-user in this case, but B2B.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author zerofill
                                      Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                                      LOL - but as you mentioned, somewhere along the line, the credibilty factor comes into play. Maybe not to the end-user in this case, but B2B.
                                      LOL Yeah I guess you could call it credibility...I should hide a camera or record the next conference call I have to do HAHA.

                                      The ones that pass out the free conference room numbers though...those guys can just dump their equipment in iowa or somewhere and give a false name if they want...as long as a wire account number and routing number is correct lol. Faking all their international traffic etc...which screws a bunch of us other telecom guys over for getting paid... Sore subject since AT&T still owes me about 18k...but might see it in 15 years...thanks to those pricks that faked all their traffic to the middle east. To get kickbacks on the per minute.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Jason Mathews
                                        I knew you guys love theorising. I though, believe that opinions are dangerous. They are a powerful weapon of propaganda and when facts are separated from opinions you get the middle ages, but of course opinions have their place and this discussion is certainly one.

                                        So, I'll give my opinion.

                                        Negative people do not exist. They are people with a problem.

                                        Jealousy? Well, I think many in their life at one point saw an amazing car and said what a wan*****r, rich a******. But we all know that that is directed more at us than the owner, that we are speaking to ourself for not having put the effort to acquire richness. I don't know, maybe they do it because of jealousy.

                                        I think, that there is a certain culture in the IM industry which encourages this sort of behaviour.

                                        When someone uses the words you are a looser, an idiot, even a cat can do it, what he is doing is lowering this industry to some mediocre standard.

                                        I believe that Internet Marketing is as much a science as Marketing, Economics, or Psychology.

                                        As opposed to Marketing, Economics or Psychology though, in Internet Marketing you do not see teachings being grounded into scientific methods, what you see more is opinions, such as I did this and it worked hence I will generalise that it works for everyone else. No more "experiments" are needed, its time to make the dosh.

                                        I think the Industry needs to move away from its "childish" behaviour and have some respect for itself. That will not happen until people try to make it a science. Hence use scientifical methods.

                                        This forum is supposed to teach how we make money? We all have been taught certainly and we probably have bashed teachers. But would you say they did not deserve it?

                                        We do not bash all the teachers, we only bash some of them, what's different about these teachers that makes us bash em?

                                        As for people feeling they are experts. I assume if you read Frank Kerns Mass Control, you would feel a bit of an expert when next time you see Frank use the methods that he taught in his course.

                                        I haven't read it by the way, that is why I said I assume. But the same goes for some other book which teaches you a certain thing and then the guru uses that method. Knowing what he is doing constitutes expertise in that narrow aspect?

                                        As for calling gurus scammers, this field is hyped to the extreme, some times you can find the same information much much cheaper from well known sources.

                                        It is a game of course and this is how the game is played in this field. Trust has been erased, authority is simply an illusion conveyed through well known tricks, knowledge is well hidden within useless information before hand.

                                        People are marketed consistently, a highway of advertising which bombards you more often than in the high street.

                                        And not to forget such derogatory terms as looser, idiot, even the dog can do it, gives this field the reputation which I do not think is associated with any other field.

                                        SEOs have the problem with being called snake oil salesman, but their field is one grounded in "science" and their teachings are sober and sane.

                                        In the Internet Marketing industry it is like walking in the jungle, hardly any decency, saness or civilisation from the mighty teachers.

                                        When people are being gamed and then taught how they are gamed, such guru bashing is inevitable.

                                        That is my opinion.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author fred67
                                    Could it be because all of the 'main' Guru's that get the stick have been around for quite a while giving people their best advice and ALL of their original stuff is still being picked up by 'surfers' everywhere on the net?

                                    The internet changes daily, and strategies have to change with it. What Guru X said five years ago will not be relevant today and so could give claim to Guru X appearing hypocritical.

                                    There is nothing worse than noticing somebody offering conflicting information.

                                    I personally think a lot of the problems stem from people not understanding that as in life.
                                    THINGS CHANGE. Opinions change and strategies change.

                                    If anyone in their 40's or above were allowed to go back in time 20 years or so to see what they were saying then, and thinking then, they'd CRINGE in shame.
                                    (No exceptions there by the way)

                                    So our Guru's are just HUMAN after all, and they'll get stick just like the rest of us.

                                    What's the problem again?

                                    Pete.
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                                    • Originally Posted by fred67 View Post

                                      If anyone in their 40's or above were allowed to go back in time 20 years or so to see what they were saying then, and thinking then, they'd CRINGE in shame.
                                      (No exceptions there by the way)
                                      Pete, Fred, whoever you are, :-)

                                      There is a nice kernel of truth here. And I'm afraid it's going to get worse, not better.

                                      Even right here on WF. Read any book on Internet marketing and you will find something on forum marketing. They all say to make a lot of posts before doing your promoting. The only catch is that many people are not fluent writers, so this is problematic. Still, they go to the forums and try to fit in.

                                      What do they see? What I see. What you see. What everyone sees. In most of the forums I have visited blurting is the most popular form of expression. Everybody blurts. And nobody can blurt good stuff 100% of the time. Not even gurus. A lot of the blurting is just plain awful.

                                      So there is undoubtedly going to be a lot more to forgive in everyone than there already is just because of the need-to-produce-new-content-everyday nature of the Internet.

                                      I wonder if a technique for enhanced blurting can be developed. That can even become a product:

                                      BLURT YOUR WAY TO INTERNET MILLIONS
                                      THE GOOGLE BLURT
                                      CONFESSIONS OF AN INDECENTLY WEALTHY BLURTER
                                      THE PROFIT-BLURT MACHINE
                                      BLURT AT HOME FOR MULTIPLE STREAMS OF INCOME

                                      Hmmmm...

                                      This might have promise...

                                      :-)

                                      Michael
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                                      • Profile picture of the author fred67
                                        Originally Posted by Michael Stuart Kelly View Post

                                        Pete, Fred, whoever you are, :-)

                                        There is a nice kernel of truth here. And I'm afraid it's going to get worse, not better.


                                        I wonder if a technique for enhanced blurting can be developed. That can even become a product:

                                        BLURT YOUR WAY TO INTERNET MILLIONS
                                        THE GOOGLE BLURT
                                        CONFESSIONS OF AN INDECENTLY WEALTHY BLURTER
                                        THE PROFIT-BLURT MACHINE
                                        BLURT AT HOME FOR MULTIPLE STREAMS OF INCOME

                                        Hmmmm...

                                        This might have promise...

                                        :-)

                                        Michael
                                        I think you're right there 'Michael Stuart Kelly' :-)

                                        I wonder how many Warriors have now taken the 'BLURTING' tag and started putting it in their headlines already?
                                        Maybe started to write their next 'product' based on your 'giveaway' here.

                                        Keep 'em comin'.

                                        Pete.

                                        ('FRED67' was when I was shy. Now It's my domain, so it'd be a shame to change it ( :-)
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                                        • Profile picture of the author fred67
                                          I think poor old Joel Comm thinks that I'm a 'Guru Basher'. I'm not, but sometimes his 'Twitters' are so comical when read from a different angle, and I reply in my rather 'dry' Brit way.
                                          He almost always gets the wrong end of the stick, replies accordingly, and I sit there chuckling, thinking "WHAT must he have thought I meant?"

                                          I respect Joel, buy his products and promote them.
                                          But I'm sure if he saw me in a bar he'd thump me :-)

                                          Pete.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author DrC
                                            I have seen it in every field and in every aspect of life. When someone succeeds. . . others, who desire the same success but are not willing to work for it, want to see that successful person fail.

                                            Sick and twisted. . . But true
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                                            • Profile picture of the author chriswight
                                              Originally Posted by DrC View Post

                                              I have seen it in every field and in every aspect of life. When someone succeeds. . . others, who desire the same success but are not willing to work for it, want to see that successful person fail.

                                              Sick and twisted. . . But true
                                              There's an old metaphor that seems a bit apropos about a bucket of crabs. Even though they all want out of the bucket, each time one of them gets close, the others pull him back down.
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                                          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                            Simon,

                                            Are you sure that was Joel, and not Russell? I remember Russell having an offer that read like what you describe. I don't recall Joel doing a freebie that ended up with a forced continuity plan. A low cost deal on one of his books, yes, but the one I saw was pretty clear about what you were getting.

                                            Then again, might have been a deal I missed or forgot. That does happen.

                                            You make a good point about high-volume sellers getting more complaints, even if their ratio is lower. Still, those types of complaints don't tend to have the same tone, and aren't what I mean by bashing.

                                            That goes also to John Rowe's comment about my "rigid 'no'." Throughout this discussion, I've distinguished legitimate criticism as separate from bashing. If they create the criticism by objective flaw or fault with their product or processes, it isn't bashing.

                                            There is a category of person who attracts bashers because of their communication style. One could argue that those people bear some responsibility for the bashing, but it's a weak argument, and one that's way beyond the scope of this discussion.

                                            It's also not really applicable, in so much as the people who are thus attracted are already prone to baseless allegations, and are responsible for their own behavior. And very few of the people in this market who are generally described as gurus demonstrate those tendencies in communication.

                                            As far as John's pointer to the Amazon reviews of Kevin Trudeau's diet book, it's impossible to tell, even from the reviews, what's behind it. Trudeau has a long history of questionable claims, and a large group online who make a hobby of trying to take him down. It's as easy to generate a flood of bad reviews as it is to engineer a short-term top ranking at Amazon.

                                            And Trudeau has exactly the attributes I alluded to above for attracting the freaks.


                                            Paul
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                                            • Profile picture of the author Simon_Sezs
                                              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                                              Simon,

                                              Are you sure that was Joel, and not Russell?


                                              Paul
                                              It might have been....my memory is kind of rusty and I think that the only reason I saw it was in passing on the blogosphere.
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                                              • Profile picture of the author JohnB23
                                                I don't follow internet marketing per se, I've just studied books like Scientific Advertising, Testing Advertising Methods, many Jay Abraham courses, etc to get a solid business and marketing foundation.

                                                No disrespect to IM, but most of it is a joke.

                                                It seems to be a combination of insane hype, insane promises, zero/low credibility from sellers or promoters. Combine it with a "slick" factor....slicker than most traditional businesses, like an oil slick. And internet anonymity. And low barriers to entry (no barriers to entry publishing a website).

                                                When I look around the net, a lot of it becomes a blur with peer to peer share, bit torrent, sort of this underground, hacker mentality.

                                                Not all of it course.

                                                But honesty, is there much difference between spam mail you delete or "BuY CiALIS" and some IM offers?

                                                There are a lot of roads that lead to nowhere. Like a desert with a sign out front, "Internet Marketing". And there are all these criss crossing roads. And they don't really go anywhere, it's an endless loop.

                                                I never cared about labels. Whether you call it "internet marketing" or "direct response" or something else. I think some get way too fixated on labels and falling under a definition. I don't see it in other businesses or industries, no one really cares.

                                                Paraphrasing Jay from one of his Internet teleconferences..."but they're slick copywriters" (talking about what he sees online).

                                                If I was first getting into it and wanted to make money...

                                                -I'd check out all the 5 star books on amazon under marketing, etc. They're not that expensive. Maybe some of the old out of print books are or a Jay Abraham tape set.

                                                -I'd rip apart a really good seminar by one of the gurus, Jay, Dan Kennedy, etc.

                                                I'm fascinated with Jay. I have a lot of his products. He's one of the few people that makes me feel good about spending my money on. Most people have trouble selling something on ebay, he sells $5,000 seminars. That's pretty fascinating.

                                                -Draw a clear line between slick and quality.

                                                -Focus on a niche or something real. If you can't explain what you do to family or friends, you're probably not making much money.

                                                I think with guru bashing, I think there are a lot of beginners who have read a few books, jealous/angry/baffled by the success of the big names. And the expertise, knowledge, experience of the big names isn't really apparent or clear. It's all looks the same on the internet. Sort of stealth, experience or knowledge.

                                                Then combine it with so many people that come into IM/marketing online everyday, it's just sort of a combustible combination. Just a weird and wild combination of factors...
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                                  • Profile picture of the author MikeRogers
                                    I used to think on the subject of "Bashing" quite a bit when I was in law enforcement.

                                    If someone's residence was burglarized, we had usually less that 48 hours to make an arrest or the homeowner would begin to blame the police for their misfortune... Sometimes publicly, which would start a feeding frenzy in the press.

                                    I finally attributed this to the fact that the victim could not put a face on the violator and, since it's difficult to hate a person that you can't visualize, the next best thing is the detective assigned to the case.

                                    I would imagine that the "Guru's" lot-in-life would not be too dissimilar. If a person purchases your how-to course and can't make it work, whose fault is it? Certainly not the purchaser of the product or the rotten niche he selected. It has to be the fault of the person who sold him that "Stinkin' Piece of Crap" in the first place; the individual he can focus his anger and frustration on.

                                    Ahhh well, such is life I guess. After all, it's just human.

                                    Mike
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Simon_Sezs
                                      Originally Posted by MikeRogers View Post

                                      I used to think on the subject of "Bashing" quite a bit when I was in law enforcement.

                                      If someone's residence was burglarized, we had usually less that 48 hours to make an arrest or the homeowner would begin to blame the police for their misfortune... Sometimes publicly, which would start a feeding frenzy in the press.

                                      I finally attributed this to the fact that the victim could not put a face on the violator and, since it's difficult to hate a person that you can't visualize, the next best thing is the detective assigned to the case.

                                      I would imagine that the "Guru's" lot-in-life would not be too dissimilar. If a person purchases your how-to course and can't make it work, whose fault is it? Certainly not the purchaser of the product or the rotten niche he selected. It has to be the fault of the person who sold him that "Stinkin' Piece of Crap" in the first place; the individual he can focus his anger and frustration on.

                                      Ahhh well, such is life I guess. After all, it's just human.

                                      Mike
                                      I can buy that. The problem comes in more the form of deliver and the promises before it. For example, it is real easy for me to generate traffic but that is because I have a ton of websites which in turn allow me to cross link and do all sorts of stuff to rise higher in the SERPS. Would I write a book or generate a video on how to do it? Of course not. The problem would be that first of all, the work behind actually doing it is just that....work. And telling someone that they are going to have to work to get ahead isn't exactly a stellar selling point.

                                      The real problem is that most of the books I have read leave key ingredients to how they really do it. It isn't really their fault, I guess. The real problem is that if you are an IMer who has been doing it for awhile, you have shortcuts that you have made over the years. A newbie marketer doesn't have them and the reality is that they would have to create them to be on the same level. How do you break it to a newbie marketer that they probably need to educate themselves further and start building link farms, ect. in order to get to where you are at?

                                      So, instead of doing that, you simply leave out the "work" part, append it with the "follow my blueprint...it is so easy your grandma could do it" and hope like hell they don't try to follow through.

                                      The bottom line is that people don't want to know that there is a lot of hard work behind the curtain for most IMers who make real money. And if there isn't a lot of work, there is a lot of money changing hands for the work to get done.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                        I'm of course speaking from my own limited and white collar world, but when
                                        I was a kid, we went to school to learn things. We were taught basic English,
                                        math, science, whatever. This education was free, to an extent anyway.
                                        Truth is, we paid for it with our taxes. But that's another story.

                                        We didn't expect much out of our education other than the hopes that when
                                        we finished high school (still all free) we could get into a good college.

                                        Then college came. It was no longer free. We had to pay, and in some cases,
                                        dearly for our education.

                                        We went through 4 years of college at whatever price (certainly a hell of a
                                        lot more than any IM training) and when it was all over and done with, we
                                        went out into the world and looked for a job.

                                        If we didn't find one, we didn't go back to our college and say, "I want my
                                        money back. I didn't get a job even with my $100,000 of college expenses."

                                        We didn't look for guarantees. And yet, when it comes to earning a living
                                        online, we buy a $97 ebook or purchase a $497 home study course and
                                        we expect that after we are done, we're going to make all this money,
                                        and in record time to boot. And then when we don't, we scream scam and
                                        demand our money back.

                                        Am I the only one who sees the insanity in all this?

                                        And please don't say the "gurus" promise us we'll make money. All they say
                                        legally is that if we're not satisfied with our results, we can have a refund.

                                        That's a hell of a lot more than any college is going to give you.

                                        I don't know where this entitlement mentality came from, but it's got a lot
                                        of people thinking that the "gurus" are just ripping us off.

                                        I learned what I learned from these same "gurus".

                                        I make money...lots of it.

                                        So where was I screwed?

                                        I'm not saying I earned it because of them or in spite of them. Ultimately,
                                        it was up to me to take what they taught me and use it. And if I truly felt
                                        that what they sold me was a bill of goods, then it was my responsibility
                                        to ask for a refund.

                                        If everybody did that, the gurus who really DID sell snake oil would all be
                                        out of business, or at the very least, not nearly as rich as they are today.

                                        I realize that everybody isn't going to see things as I do, and that's fine.
                                        I too realize, as Paul I think has suggested, that you're not going to change
                                        these people and I for one am tired of trying.

                                        We all have to take responsibility for our own lives.

                                        If John Doe says on his sales page "Make $30,000 in 30 Days...Guaranteed"
                                        we should have enough sense to think that maybe what he's selling is
                                        snake oil and is to be avoided.

                                        But that's just my way of thinking.

                                        And so far...it's working just fine for me as I haven't had to refund a product
                                        in over 3 years.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Christie Love
                                    My thought exactly. I think that if people stopped putting so much negative focus on what others are doing and put that same energy into their own internet marketing business, maybe they can one day be called a guru, which is a pretty presegious title I think.

                                    As one Warrior said, these guru bashers are nothing but haters. If the tables were turned and they were at the level of these gurus, they would be singing a totally different tune. Sometimes, we should put ourselves in other people shoes.

                                    The Gurus didn't get that title for sitting on their butt and doing nothig. They earned it. That's why they are the talk of the town.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Xepa
                                    It's asinine to bash like that. Gurus make a lot of money
                                    for a reason: they know what they're doing. If you're
                                    a pro and you bought some newbie software, then you
                                    should have read the sales page in finer print rather than
                                    buying into the hype.

                                    What I hate is when n00bs sell WSOs for ridiculous prices,
                                    only to find out that topics on the Warrior forum contain
                                    more info than that product. I can summarize some of the
                                    100+ page reports I've bought in like, 10 bullet points.
                                    It's ridiculous and too fluffed.

                                    Just my .02
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                                  • Profile picture of the author mindvalley
                                    I would also add that there are A LOT of crappy products (info products as well as software products) being marketed by shameless Internet Marketers and that can result in a lot of rightful bashing. Obviously, sometimes the wrong people get caught in the bashing but of all the industries... the how to make money segment of Internet Marketing is full of over-hyped products that fail to deliver true value. For a newbie, it can be very hard to sort out who to trust. After all, there are also lots of gurus out there who have developed incredible products and have helped hundreds if not thousands of people become successful online.
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                                    • This whole discussion seems to be about how to assess values.

                                      The sad fact is that quality does not equate with economic success.

                                      Quality-wise there are good gurus and bad gurus. Guru is just a category--someone who has developed a following in Internet marketing--not a judgment of his or her quality (neither informational nor moral).

                                      When people bash gurus, they are usually bashing a quality found in some gurus, but use the term in such a manner that can be construed to mean all gurus. Using a word for kind to mean quality is their mistake and this is what leads to confusion.

                                      In my own values, give me some of the wise lesser knowns here on WF over highly successful predatory gurus who sell misinformation with a lot of hype and false promises. (And I have learned a ton-load here so far.)

                                      But even more, give me a high-quality highly successful guru.

                                      I want to be like him or her. I want to have what he or she has.

                                      Michael
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                                      • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
                                        Originally Posted by Michael Stuart Kelly View Post

                                        But even more, give me a high-quality highly successful guru.

                                        I want to be like him or her. I want to have what he or she has.

                                        Michael
                                        Michael,

                                        You are right. Maybe. You have nailed it, possibly. I want to agree with you, and perhaps I will. HOWEVER,

                                        I'm not real clear on what a "high-quality highly successful guru" IS?

                                        If someone has been in business for 50 years, achieved astonishing success, never had a bad word uttered about his business methods...shared his strategies with thousands of people, helped some of the biggest named "gurus" you've ever heard of...and did it without fanfare, without seeking fame...

                                        would YOU consider that to be a person of "high-quality"? Is that someone you'd want to learn from? To study with?

                                        Gordon Jay Alexander

                                        PS. Or are we restricting the discussion to ONLINE gurus only?
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                                        • Originally Posted by gjabiz View Post

                                          If someone has been in business for 50 years, achieved astonishing success, never had a bad word uttered about his business methods...shared his strategies with thousands of people, helped some of the biggest named "gurus" you've ever heard of...and did it without fanfare, without seeking fame...

                                          would YOU consider that to be a person of "high-quality"? Is that someone you'd want to learn from? To study with?
                                          Gordon,

                                          Yep.

                                          I guess the only thing I would verify is if he is happy. That being the case, what is there to criticize about such a person? You have simply described a magnificent human being.

                                          I consider a "high-quality" guru to mean someone who has knowledge that works as it is supposed to do and as he promises it does and he successfully teaches it. One shall know a high-quality guru by his students. I don't think things like mainstream fame or even borderline things like a little extra forced hype in promotions detracts from such quality.

                                          Originally Posted by gjabiz View Post

                                          PS. Or are we restricting the discussion to ONLINE gurus only?
                                          That's an interesting question. I had presumed we were, but only as a general idea since most of this business is online, not as a condition. (And, after all, Internet marketing is online by definition...)

                                          But I want to think about that one. It came from an unexpected angle and caused some tingles of pleasure in my brain waves...

                                          Michael
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                                          • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
                                            Originally Posted by Michael Stuart Kelly View Post

                                            Gordon,

                                            I consider a "high-quality" guru to mean someone who has knowledge that works as it is supposed to do and as he promises it does and he successfully teaches it. One shall know a high-quality guru by his students. I don't think things like mainstream fame or even borderline things like a little extra forced hype in promotions detracts from such quality.


                                            That's an interesting question. I had presumed we were, but only as a general idea since most of this business is online, not as a condition. (And, after all, Internet marketing is online by definition...)


                                            Michael
                                            Thank you Michael for taking your time to respond.

                                            There are "high-qulaity" gurus in every city (think S.C.O.R.E. for one place to find them) that stand ready, willing and able to help with off line business. These teachers (gurus) have in the trench experience and most people can access them for free.

                                            I think we can all see this very clearly, the FOG for me, comes from the Internet Marketing angle, I'm not clear on that definition either.

                                            Is (pardon me President Clinton for parsing here) a business that sells products both ONline and off, are they considered to be doing "internet marketing"?

                                            What about a guy who has made millions of dollars from his email activity, no web site and without actually "selling" a thing, other than his credentials and expertise, to a small group of people who pay him the big money? Is he doing "Internet Marketing"?

                                            Honestly, I'm just trying to understand the playing field, learn what the parameters are and how some money-making geniuses use the Internet for business, but don't do any so-called Internet Marketing. See?

                                            As for this: "One shall know a high quality guru by his students".

                                            What if the students go astray from the Master's teaching? What if they take the tested and proven methodology and "adjust" it to suit their goals, personalities and lifestyle?

                                            Was Gary Halbert a "high quality" guru? I think so, but others will readily point to his time spent in "Club Fed".

                                            I wish I had the skills to create a Marketing Guru DEATH MATCH online, I'm sure it would be Pay-Per-View...anyone here have some great "claymation" skills?

                                            Is the guy who sells widgets from his website an "Internet Marketer"?

                                            gjabiz
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                                            • Gordon,

                                              LOL...

                                              I think we are talking at cross purposes, but I do appreciate your comments.

                                              I'm not interested at this point in my life in making general rules and definitions for everyone to live by. Lord knows I've done enough of that for 5 lifetimes. That not only includes studying what marketing really is, the nature of wealth, different economic systems, debt as expansion of the money supply, jurisdiction problems with the Internet, intellectual property, the nature of the human psyche and why psychological triggers induce action, and on and on.

                                              I even run a philosophy forum, so this kind of discussion gets far, far deeper.

                                              My interest is more specific and the concepts I am using on this forum have simple referents in reality. They are not mere abstractions or complicated systems of deductions.

                                              Let's say I am at peace with my understanding of the moral implications of production and how this transforms into wealth. I heartily endorse capitalism. Money as debt, though, scares the living bejeezus out of me. One small slip in that system and the boom thunders around the world. All this is bigger than a single individual anyway, so in addition to understanding the big picture, simple practical money-making methods are extremely valuable.

                                              Not only is wealth building a value in itself, accumulating money and getting it out of harms way (harm meaning mostly the possibility of evaporating because of government policies and screw-ups) is really the only protection an individual has against massive organizations.

                                              I seek to emulate those with extremely successful money-making systems that I can build for myself and that do not infringe my values.

                                              I am attracted to Internet marketing because I have concluded that information is at the core of all production and it makes a terrific product. That is the essence of the vast majority of Internet marketing.

                                              The model I am using in my own mind for my present pursuit of values deals with the creation and sale of information for profit. The gurus I wish to emulate are ones who are involved in this specific field.

                                              The process is not complicated, but the variety of resources and methods is. The process basically boils down in my life to me acting at:

                                              1. Finding out what folks want to know and what knowledge they are willing to pay for.
                                              2. Researching the knowledge in that field and finding or producing information products that fill the demand I uncovered.
                                              3. Building sales display points like presell sites or store-front sites that present (a) a clear product offer, (b) a method of taking payment, and (c) a method of delivering the products sold.
                                              4. Promoting and advertising those products, sales points and/or myself as a reputable supplier/seller.

                                              There are all kinds of variations on what to do with each activity, but that's about it. Internet marketing gurus who do that whole thing well, providing solid and true information to people who want it and use it and are willing to pay for it are the gurus I wish to emulate.

                                              Later I might become interested in more tangible products, but I do information well. (You can't beat the operating costs, either.) If I were into products and shipping, I would be interested in gurus who do that well. The same goes for any kind of business activity or skill. (I have had several masters over the course of my life since I have worked at several things.)

                                              You asked if a bad student reflects on evaluating the guru. I think this is true, but it is relative and needs qualification.

                                              Obviously individual responsibility resides in the individual, not the teacher. But we use induction to arrive a generalizations, not deduction. With induction, there are always exceptions. That is inherent in making a category for a majority of similar characteristics. (With deduction, an exception creates a contradiction.)

                                              Thus if a guru has a small number of bad students, but an enormous number of successful, competent and happy ones, that is a great indicator that his system has top quality and high value. One bad student does not disqualify the mountain of good students. (It would disqualify the proposition that his method works for 100% of all students, but that is not the standard one uses if he wants to do successful business.)

                                              If a guru has no perceivable students (or mostly bad or mediocre ones), he uses mostly spam techniques and the like, and his information is crummy, i.e. it has been successfully challenged by qualified experts as baloney, hype and outright wrong facts, that's a great indicator, too. A dude like that can make a lot of money, but that is not the quality of guru I choose to emulate. I leave the field of sleaze artistry to those who have a callous where their moral faculty should be.

                                              Money is just one value—it is a main one, but not the only one. I have quality of life, competence and personal efficacy, making honest value-for-value trades, and a bunch of other things in the mix, too. (But those values are outside the scope of this post.)

                                              See? There I go again... Once I get on a roll...

                                              I have to get back to my focus, which is nailing this business down to a successful model and doing it.

                                              btw - Please forgive me if I do not place much confidence in government agencies like SCORE for teaching outstanding wealth building techniques. I do admit, from what I have seen, they provide some decent nuts-and-bolts kind of information. They are also great for information on legalities. But if you really want to get to the nitty-gritty with the government, it can't even define "dollar." If you like complicated, you can find all the complicated you want with the government. Look at this! Now we are really outside the scope of this post. :-)

                                              I have an idea. If you like general issues, I like discussing them, but I am cutting back so I can make some money. It's hard (for me at least) to learn to be simple. However, I might be seduced into a discussion where we analyze what the hell "ethical hype" means. That concept sends the syllogisms doing somersaults in my head and I have a real hard time with referents.

                                              :-)

                                              Michael
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                                              • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
                                                Originally Posted by Michael Stuart Kelly View Post

                                                Gordon,

                                                LOL...

                                                I think we are talking at cross purposes, but I do appreciate your comments.

                                                I seek to emulate those with extremely successful money-making systems that I can build for myself and that do not infringe my values.

                                                I am attracted to Internet marketing because I have concluded that information is at the core of all production and it makes a terrific product. That is the essence of the vast majority of Internet marketing.

                                                The model I am using in my own mind for my present pursuit of values deals with the creation and sale of information for profit. The gurus I wish to emulate are ones who are involved in this specific field.

                                                The process is not complicated, but the variety of resources and methods is. The process basically boils down in my life to me acting at:

                                                1. Finding out what folks want to know and what knowledge they are willing to pay for.
                                                2. Researching the knowledge in that field and finding or producing information products that fill the demand I uncovered.
                                                3. Building sales display points like presell sites or store-front sites that present (a) a clear product offer, (b) a method of taking payment, and (c) a method of delivering the products sold.
                                                4. Promoting and advertising those products, sales points and/or myself as a reputable supplier/seller.

                                                I have to get back to my focus, which is nailing this business down to a successful model and doing it.

                                                btw - Please forgive me if I do not place much confidence in government agencies like SCORE for teaching outstanding wealth building techniques. I do admit, from what I have seen, they provide some decent nuts-and-bolts kind of information. They are also great for information on legalities.

                                                I have an idea. If you like general issues, I like discussing them, but I am cutting back so I can make some money.
                                                Michael
                                                Michael,

                                                I don't see how we are at cross purposes...you provide me with an excellent and even succinct 4 step formula for infopreneurial success:

                                                1- Prospects- Markets- finding what people want and what they will pay.
                                                2- Products- Finding (Acquistion) or Producing (Creating) products to meet the want
                                                3- Promotions- Sales points, monetary exchange-fulfillment
                                                4- Marketing- Getting promotions in front of target market

                                                That's my simplification of what you said and it is center to the purpose of making money as an inforpreneur...and that is my reason for asking...I don't want a "general" discussion either, by asking these questions, I get guys like you to leave GEMS like you did, posts that actually have some useful, actionable and valuable information in them. Not a typical ME TOO, Good Post, I agree, Yea, HE's a real dip-sh*t...type of posts.

                                                And for being at "cross purposes"...you cleary state:

                                                "I have to get back to my focus, which is nailing this business down to a successful model and doing it."

                                                See? We are in total concert. Nailing this business down to a succesful model and doing it.

                                                gjabiz

                                                PS. Regarding SCORE. As you noted, they can help people understand the "legalities" and help get their hard earned gains out of Harm's Way, as you so eloquently stated.

                                                I'm trying to understand the "guru" point and how they can help me reach my goals, yet, I'm seeing so much "individualism", it makes it hard to follow their MODEL. I'd rather follow tested and proven (with more than a year or two track record) success that has a verifiable track record and the INFORMATION that really works.

                                                I do appreciate you making my head hurt, however. Thanks.
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                                                • Gordon,

                                                  Man, did I ever misread your interest.

                                                  Please accept my apology for mischaracterizing it.

                                                  btw - I don't think I want to become an Internet marketing guru, myself, although there are several gurus I want to emulate.

                                                  I vastly prefer becoming an Internet marketing deity. :-)

                                                  Michael
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                                  • Profile picture of the author myob
                                    It happens in the "offline" world too. Knocking Exxon and WalMart for their huge profits, for example, seems to be a past-time for the small minded. In my opinion, this type of bashing whether against "gurus" or large successful organizations is extremely self-limiting. Instead of bashing them, why not copy their success?
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Simon_Sezs
                                      With success comes criticism....

                                      Obviously, one of the most important aspects of "guru" status is the fact that the more visible you are, the more open you should be to critics, whether you like it or not.

                                      It happens to movie stars...it happens to athletes....it happens to politicians...why shouldn't it happen to the Frank Kern's of the world?

                                      And since most gurus are larger than life in the eyes and minds of their followers (and detractors) you have to think that they will be expected to continue to be larger than life. Any flaws or misgivings that they do will immediately be brought to light.

                                      Some of their tactics (which are dubious sometimes but still fall under the marketing umbrella) may be misconstrued as scams and therefore, because they have the spotlight, there will be many people wanting to "out" them.

                                      I will give an example....Forced continuity which is good for IMers and for the most part, not so good for the customers.

                                      About a year ago, I believe it was Joel Comm who sent out something that he was promoting for "free". I imagine because of his stature in the IM world that he got a lot of make money hopefuls to sign up for "free".

                                      But some didn't read the fine print (you know the kind...the kind where you have to scroll down forever past the disclaimers to the very bottom in 8pt. font and italics that make it harder to read) that stated that by getting this "free" product, you are signing up to get Joel's monthly newsletter for $19.95 (or how ever much it was).

                                      What happened after that? Well, obviously there were a lot of not so happy people when they got the bill the next month. Some of these people complained and voiced their opinion in the form of a blog or website.

                                      As marketers trying to make a buck, this type of marketing is great. After all, even if we have some complaints, we know that some won't even notice the charge or won't bother to dispute it....money in the bank, right? Besides, if the customer isn't smart enough to read the fine print, then they get what they deserve.

                                      Now is that a scam? Not technically. IT IS LEGAL EAGLE. But from a customer's point of view who didn't bother to read the fine print.....who thought that Joel was being a nice guy marketer.....well, let's just say that they felt taken.

                                      Now for the ramifications
                                      . If you aren't a guru, you won't have the luxury of having 100's or 1,000's of people to deal with and therefore, the amount of negatives won't be enough to make waves....

                                      HOWEVER,

                                      If you have the stature and movie star appeal of a Joel Comm, then chances are you will have more than a few new "haters" to your marketing career that will have something negative to say about NOT just the one thing that they felt swindled over...but for any products that you put out in the future.

                                      Is that right for them to do that? Should they suddenly speak sarcastically everytime someone mentions Joel's name? Should they take the time and energy to vent about it? Who knows? But the point I am making is that while there are people who have their own guru bashing agendas, couldn't there also be people who fell victim to shoddy marketing tactics and decided to take it on themselves to warn others about it?

                                      Once again, Joel hasn't broken any laws. But perception wise, he may have killed the trust of his list to the point where they are pissed enough to write negative reviews on anything he does.

                                      Right or wrong, as marketers, we see the world through our rose colored marketing glasses.

                                      We get pissed when our product that we toiled over for weeks is shotdown by someone who wrote something negative about it in 5 minutes.

                                      We are unhappy when our refund rate jumps to 2% (which, btw, the real world retail market would salivate over such a low refund rate)

                                      We don't understand why someone is unhappy when our "secret technique to make it to #1 on Google" involves stuff that is rehashed from another book (which let's face it...most MMO people read more than one book)

                                      What most of us don't understand is that if you put out a shoddy product, expect some "shoddy comments and posts". Now if you are a guru and do this, you can expect a ton more simply because more people are reading your crap.

                                      Now, I am not singling out Joel here. Most successful marketers use what I would consider "not so nice" marketing techniques to get sales. The forced continuity ploy is just one of those tactics that will most likely illicit some not so nice reactions.

                                      And if you deceive (pardon me for being so blunt, but marketing is largely nothing more than smoke and mirrors...we are constantly looking for new ways to punch that g-spot of the customer and get them to react), even if it is legal, then you should expect criticisim.

                                      And in the case of the "gurus" who have a much larger reach, you should expect more criticism.

                                      Some IMers want to pass off guru bashing as simply jealousy. In some cases it is. In other cases, it is simply not true.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author celente
                                      Originally Posted by myob View Post

                                      It happens in the "offline" world too. Knocking Exxon and WalMart for their huge profits, for example, seems to be a past-time for the small minded. In my opinion, this type of bashing whether against "gurus" or large successful organizations is extremely self-limiting. Instead of bashing them, why not copy their success?
                                      I think it comes down to two reason

                                      1) Jealousy

                                      2) Blaming others success as scammers

                                      But I completely agree, if these numbsculls spent all the time they usually spent knocking the big guys, and actually studied them, reverse engineered them, they would see massive success. Just the nature of the beast and the human psychocology at work I guess, and that tall poppy syndrome we call it in OZ... (knock somone down, who is successful)
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Aegon
                                    I do not know what the mainstream view of Gurus are. But mine are ones that fit this criteria:

                                    1) Do not know as much as they claim to know, or will never tell you without a ridiculous price, and even then they won't tell you enough to be at their level.

                                    2) People who exaggerate claims or outright lie just to make a sale. Scammers. Deceptive to their customers. In fact instead of "customer" those people should be referred to as "victims", because there is no exchange of anything useful going on, only outright robbery.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author elitemarketer
                                      My take is in some cases:

                                      The Gurus Are Dead Wrong

                                      Hey we are all marketers but a lot of the Guru's out there sell the course based on the result of the course and make it seem like that money can be made overnight (even though the buyers should know better). I believe that IM gets a bad wrap because of this especially when that lazy person goes around talking as if they got scammed when if they ever actually take the time to "IMPLEMENT WHAT THEY LEARNED" they would see the results they were promised. But don't sell a product and in the marketing say you understand that the consumer has no time or money and needs a quick fix to only send them a 1400 page manual and 20 DVD's!

                                      And the launches don't help at all. When these Guru's do Product Launches talking about how they started from scratch and know what its like starting out with no money and want to help people... Then they have tons of people following them through the launch and then on launch day the followers find out its a $2k/month membership site. This is what causes many people that were loving the Free info against that Guru real quick!

                                      ** Hey DONT HATE THE PLAYER HAT THE GAME IS WHAT I SAY

                                      The Basher's Are Wrong

                                      When it comes down to it I believe that the reason many people bash the guru's is so that when they are promoting their product they are trying to come off as one of prospects (the regular guys) that is sick of Guru's.

                                      Honestly, I think this people need to understand "YOU MUST TAKE ACTION" to get results!
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                                • Profile picture of the author Simon_Sezs
                                  Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

                                  I've sat here thinking long and hard of even one business, in any market, online or off that achieved success anonymously and I can't think of any.
                                  If that is truly the case, you aren't thinking near hard enough. Without "outing" some of my friends and acquaintances, I can give you one solid example.....

                                  Shoemoney. Sure his site makes him a brand all to himself but the reality is that he makes his real money promoting CPA products online (hence the 100k azoogle paycheck). Do you think that he promotes stuff using his real name as some sort of validation for credibility?

                                  Nope.

                                  Why would he want to? First of all, Shoemoney has made his big money in ringtones and PPC but there is a sneaking suspicion that he also has a huge amount of MFA's as well. I would be willing to bet that if you really dug deep and found all of his successful sites and marketing campaigns, that his name would not be attached to it in any way, shape or form. He probably even uses an alias.

                                  That is just one example. In the CPA marketing world, there are tons of similar stories.

                                  Same thing goes with ClickBank, which allows you to have as many accounts as you want. Once again, the PPC marketing crowd walk to a different drum than the MMO crowd that chase the gurus around.

                                  Ebay sellers and the power rating? Everyone knows that ebay seller's credibility are judged by their rating. What most don't know is that a lot of sellers game these ratings.

                                  Example- I have a buddy of mine who sells burglar alarm equipment via ebay. He has a network of acquaintances that will outbid a bidder if the bid is too low. In addition to this, his friend, the buyer, will give him a good rating. The stuff isn't exchanged from person to person. They take the hit in fees but it does two things for them...

                                  1. raises their power seller rating....
                                  2. protects them against a bid being sold for too low...
                                  Does that make them credible? maybe from the perception of the ebay buyer but that doesn't necessarily mean they are credible (he doesn't scam people...I don't want anyone to think that I am implying that). He makes his living on several niche products by doing this.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
                                    Originally Posted by Simon_Sezs View Post

                                    Example- I have a buddy of mine who sells burglar alarm equipment via ebay. He has a network of acquaintances that will outbid a bidder if the bid is too low. In addition to this, his friend, the buyer, will give him a good rating. The stuff isn't exchanged from person to person. They take the hit in fees but it does two things for them...

                                    1. raises their power seller rating....
                                    2. protects them against a bid being sold for too low...
                                    Does that make them credible? maybe from the perception of the ebay buyer but that doesn't necessarily mean they are credible (he doesn't scam people...I don't want anyone to think that I am implying that). He makes his living on several niche products by doing this.
                                    Yes he does. Just by shill bidding he is scamming people. Not to mention that by skewing his feedback, he is also scamming people on ALL auctions because of the false impression.

                                    Also, CPA/affiliate promoters don't need to show their names. They arent selling. They rely on the product/site owners credibility. They are simply driving traffic.

                                    Garrie
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Simon_Sezs
                                      Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

                                      Yes he does. Just by shill bidding he is scamming people. Not to mention that by skewing his feedback, he is also scamming people on ALL auctions because of the false impression.Garrie
                                      So, by skewing auctions my buddy is marked a scammer BUT by giving out misleading information (ala guru style), gurus get a pass? Really? You can't have it both ways. Either it is or it isn't. So, I guess he becomes a scammer not because he delivers but because of the events that lead up to his delivery? Hmmm.....


                                      Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

                                      Also, CPA/affiliate promoters don't need to show their names. They arent selling. They rely on the product/site owners credibility. They are simply driving traffic.
                                      So, in other words, a splash page promising to give out the latest ringtones or astrology (which one company uses forced continuity) text somehow comes across as credible? More likely, it is just a matter of good ad copy...credibility doesn't factor into the equation.... The person goes there and is supplied with what they are looking for....I imagine that the credibility is assumed because it is on the first page of google and therefore must be credible in the eyes of the visitor.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
                                        Originally Posted by Simon_Sezs View Post

                                        So, by skewing auctions my buddy is marked a scammer BUT by giving out misleading information (ala guru style), gurus get a pass? Really? You can't have it both ways. Either it is or it isn't. So, I guess he becomes a scammer not because he delivers but because of the events that lead up to his delivery? Hmmm.....
                                        Did I ever say gurus tht mislead arent scamming? No. Infact, I didn't say either way as I didn't post until you said your buddy doesn't scam.

                                        Just to set your mind at ease...

                                        I will be the first to call someone on shit when they mislead, misrepresent, or do anything else *I* think is not up to par.

                                        As far as your "buddy," he is scamming people MULTIPLE ways.

                                        1. HONEST bids lose because of the shill.
                                        2. HONEST bids are forced higher because of the shill.
                                        3. The false feedback misrepresents the reputation AND can falsely make them a power seller. Which leads to further misrepresentation.

                                        He could just cancell the auction or use a reserve.

                                        I'd bet you are either the buddy or the shill bidder.

                                        So, in other words, a splash page promising to give out the latest ringtones or astrology (which one company uses forced continuity) text somehow comes across as credible?
                                        *sigh* You must not read. You gave CPA/affiliate marketers as an example of anonymous people making "a killing" and I pointed out they are NOT the sellers. They drive traffic. Big difference.

                                        More likely, it is just a matter of good ad copy...credibility doesn't factor into the equation.... The person goes there and is supplied with what they are looking for....I imagine that the credibility is assumed because it is on the first page of google and therefore must be credible in the eyes of the visitor.
                                        These pages, for the most part, have a companies name attached to them. Which means they are not anonymous. It doesnt mean they arent scammy or credible BUT you said affiliates promoting them.

                                        I give anomous people the benefit of the dought but based on your last two posts, you now have zero credibility.


                                        Garrie
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                                        • Profile picture of the author Simon_Sezs
                                          Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

                                          Did I ever say gurus tht mislead arent scamming? No. Infact, I didn't say either way as I didn't post until you said your buddy doesn't scam.

                                          Just to set your mind at ease...

                                          I will be the first to call someone on shit when they mislead, misrepresent, or do anything else *I* think is not up to par.

                                          As far as your "buddy," he is scamming people MULTIPLE ways.

                                          1. HONEST bids lose because of the shill.
                                          2. HONEST bids are forced higher because of the shill.
                                          3. The false feedback misrepresents the reputation AND can falsely make them a power seller. Which leads to further misrepresentation.

                                          He could just cancell the auction or use a reserve.

                                          I'd bet you are either the buddy or the shill bidder.Garrie
                                          Garrie, that is quite a charge. Personally, the only things I have done in regards to eBay is BANS as I am only an eBay affiliate. Nothing more, nothing less. I know very little into the workings of being a power seller. In fact, I have never sold anything via an auction site in my life.

                                          I have used some very controversial blackhat tactics to make a buck or two but why would I take the trouble of having to pack an item(s) up and ship them off when I can quietly have the internet work for me without having to sell physical products?

                                          I could ask you to take that back but in the end you are going to believe what you want to believe, name or no name.

                                          Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

                                          *sigh* You must not read. You gave CPA/affiliate marketers as an example of anonymous people making "a killing" and I pointed out they are NOT the sellers. They drive traffic. Big difference.
                                          Point taken. But if you read the previous posts, basically I was being told that no anonymous company can make money online. I probably shouldn't have made the assumption that you were looking at it the same way.

                                          Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

                                          These pages, for the most part, have a companies name attached to them. Which means they are not anonymous. It doesnt mean they arent scammy or credible BUT you said affiliates promoting them.
                                          Once again, you are right. I was assuming you were implying something else. The point was credibility. I was stating that credibility comes in more forms than simply a business name.

                                          Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

                                          I give anomous people the benefit of the dought but based on your last two posts, you now have zero credibility.
                                          Garrie
                                          Sorry you feel that way....
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                                          • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
                                            Originally Posted by Simon_Sezs View Post

                                            Garrie, that is quite a charge. Personally, the only things I have done in regards to eBay is BANS as I am only an eBay affiliate. Nothing more, nothing less. I know very little into the workings of being a power seller. In fact, I have never sold anything via an auction site in my life.

                                            I have used some very controversial blackhat tactics to make a buck or two but why would I take the trouble of having to pack an item(s) up and ship them off when I can quietly have the internet work for me without having to sell physical products?

                                            I could ask you to take that back but in the end you are going to believe what you want to believe, name or no name.
                                            Here comes a *point* of why anonymous isn't very "good"

                                            If you was using your name or atleast had a way to see who you are, I could Google you BEFORE I made my assumption.

                                            Point taken. But if you read the previous posts, basically I was being told that no anonymous company can make money online. I probably shouldn't have made the assumption that you were looking at it the same way.
                                            I think he was referring to companies that sell.
                                            Sorry you feel that way....
                                            I change my mind about people.

                                            For example: I use to despise Paul and now, I respect him more than any other marketer.
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                                            • Profile picture of the author Simon_Sezs
                                              Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

                                              Here comes a *point* of why anonymous isn't very "good"

                                              If you was using your name or atleast had a way to see who you are, I could Google you BEFORE I made my assumption.
                                              This is the very reason why I am anonymous. ie...you may be just wondering a little bit about me and it may be innocent...others may wonder what I sites I have and domains and hosting companies I use. The point is that internet marketing is a full contact sport and competitors will do virtually anything to try to "make" you. I know because I do the same.

                                              Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

                                              I think he was referring to companies that sell.
                                              A successful company is a successful company no matter how you chop things up. There are companies that make a living out of driving traffic. That in my mind is just as much affiliate marketing as anything else and they don't rely on their own credibility to sell things.

                                              They may rely on the advertiser's credibility or maybe not. Credibility is all about perception and strangely enough, people do associate a front page listing as credible.
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                                              • Profile picture of the author davebo
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                                                • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
                                                  Originally Posted by davebo View Post

                                                  Garrie, that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. How is an affiliate driving traffic to a site not a) anonymous b) a business.
                                                  I never said it wasn't a business. I said their credibility didn't matter.

                                                  However, their credibility can matter depending on the methods they are using to generate the traffic.

                                                  You have a shallow definition of what a business actually is.
                                                  You have poor reading comprehension.

                                                  Millions of people everyday type in products into the SE's, come across fatwallet (who have never heard of hte site) and navigate to make a purchase to which they receive an affiliate commission. They don't know, or remember who the business is. Yet, that company is making money online.
                                                  I'd bet most do remember. Plus, thats a company not someone posting as "user83494" on a business forum.

                                                  You should refer to my post that tells my thoughts on anonymous postings.
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                                                  • This is a quip, but it's true.

                                                    I can't wait until people start "guru-bashing" me.

                                                    I'm working very hard toward that end.

                                                    Michael
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                                                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                                      Jason,

                                                      The sentences are vague because you're not clear on what message you want to convey. There's nothing particularly complex about "truth or lie?"
                                                      As I said earlier we are in this forum to learn, amongst other things, but to take the analogy of school days, why did we bash some teachers and not others?
                                                      Lots of reasons. Some teachers were nice, some were scary, some were easy targets, some were different, some responded to it. Etc. All sorts of reasons.
                                                      If the fault lays with the bashers then surely they would bash all teachers rather than select few of them.
                                                      Sloppy thinking.

                                                      If that logic held true, then any teacher who got bashed should have been bashed by every student, and that clearly didn't happen in any of the schools I attended.

                                                      Along with that is the fact that the bashing tended to all be done by the same small group(s). They complained about pretty much everything. Just like online.
                                                      Would you not lay any responsibility upon the gurus themselves for all the bashing they get?
                                                      Nope.

                                                      Note that, if it's legitimate criticism, and supported by facts, it's not bashing in the sense I used the word in this thread.

                                                      "Gurus" aren't the only ones to get bashed, of course, but they're the favorite targets.

                                                      Consider who gets bashed, and how, and you'll see why it happens.


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                                                      • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
                                                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


                                                        JASON: Would you not lay any responsibility upon the gurus themselves for all the bashing they get?
                                                        PAUL: Nope. Note that, if it's legitimate criticism, and supported by facts, it's not bashing in the sense I used the word in this thread.
                                                        I absolutely do not want to get deeply involved in this thread, so I won't. Because even a lunkhead like me can see how many different viewpoints a topic like this can entertain.

                                                        I will offer this picture below though. But only in response to Paul's... all-so-rigid... 'Nope'.

                                                        It's an Amazon.com Review page, and maybe it shows how this one GURU seems to attract only those people who 'complain about pretty much everything'. Or... maybe it shows something else. That will depend on your point of view, I'll bet.


                                                        ----- Guess Who -----

                                                        Seriously though... this thread teaches volumes about perception, and even more about language usage. That's what I'll walk away with. Because I find myself open to several standpoints.

                                                        Thanks for the thread.

                                                        .
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                                            • Profile picture of the author chriswight
                                              I know that, on occasion, I myself have been guilty of a little "guru bashing." Thankfully, I have the tact to keep most of it either to myself or not mention any names.

                                              For me, I think it's more about having a visceral response to the often unbridled guru-fanboy-bootlicking that goes on.

                                              I know a lot about IM, but I know that I have a lot more to learn. I eagerly gobble up any info I can, and pay close attention to those who clearly know what they're talking about. Most of all, I try to always show respect to the people willing to share what they know, especially when they've been around the block a few times.

                                              But something about putting someone on such a pedestal that they are beyond reproach... Ugh, it just makes me... angry.

                                              It's misplaced anger.
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                                              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                                But something about putting someone on such a pedestal that they are beyond reproach... Ugh, it just makes me... angry.
                                                Who said anyone should be on a pedestal, or beyond reproach?

                                                Sure as hell wasn't me.


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                                                • Profile picture of the author chriswight
                                                  Oh, I meant the folks that do so make me angry- not that everyone does it or that to call someone a guru is to do it. It's the people that elevate the guru to godlike status that make me ill.

                                                  Sorry for that!
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                                              • Profile picture of the author Jason Mathews
                                                Excellent Posts Simon. I am impressed. In another thread someone asked about credibility and I stated that credibility is seen in the words one uses, the subject he is speaking about and how he is speaking about it.

                                                I think your posts is a good example of credibility being shown by nothing but simply words.


                                                Paul, fair enough, the sentences are vague because it is a complex subject.

                                                As for that is how I see it or that is what I believe hence my belief will somehow distort the feedback that the environment gives, that is an even more complex subject which I doubt can have a clear cut answer as you seem to put it.

                                                Anyway, in your opening post your focus is on the bashers and the whole blame is laid upon them.

                                                You have only very few words for the gurus namely that they sometimes do deserve it but it is in very rare occurances.

                                                As I said earlier we are in this forum to learn, amongst other things, but to take the analogy of school days, why did we bash some teachers and not others?

                                                If the fault lays with the bashers then surely they would bash all teachers rather than select few of them.

                                                Would you not lay any responsibility upon the gurus themselves for all the bashing they get?
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              • Profile picture of the author Bruce NewMedia
                Paul wrote: "Next is that a lot of people confuse results with skill, and experience with expertise......"

                That is profound......So's the whole article, btw.

                Thanks Bruce
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                • Profile picture of the author Simon_Sezs
                  hmmm....guru bashing...there is another aspect that hasn't really been mentioned....outlandish ad copy that makes people believe the impossible.
                  • The "I have a blueprint that will work for anyone to earn 1000's" type of copy.
                  • The "no computer skills necessary to be a internet marketer" type of copy.
                  • The "here is how I made thousands using 3 simple tricks" ad copy.
                  • The "learn everything from the masters in this 6 part 2 hour audio interview" ad copy (which consequently turns out to be nothing more than a promo for an upcoming product OR is nothing more than the basics).
                  • The "internet marketing is dead and I have the new wave of the future for $1000" kind of ad copy.
                  Let's face it. Most of the stuff that these "gurus" dole out to the eager beginner and intermediate marketers aren't really worth the time it takes to read. I say "most" because there are a few that actually give out practical business advice. Then again, most of those people aren't trying to promise to spoon feed beginners.

                  When does a "guru" earn the scammer moniker? I am not sure. But I have to think that it would probably start with outlandish and deceptive ad copy (ie. "you are seconds from learning how to go from zero to hero and dominate the front page of google by following my blueprint that made me...blah blah blah blah"- which consequently turns out to be set up a squidoo page, a couple wordpress blogs, a hub page and connect them all, yada, yada, yada).

                  Am I jaded? I would say so. I stopped following most of these "gurus" years ago. I do bash their products from time to time though....if there ad copy doesn't reflect what you are really getting.

                  And then again, I think really that a bad review of a bad product would put me in the minority really. I won't mention any recent big launches but let's just say if you were making an inquiry into a major product at launch, you would find far more so called reviews from affiliates trying to earn a buck and very few real reviews from affiliates (or even non-affiliates) who are willing to put their neck on the line and tell it like it is.

                  So, if some of the "gurus" are truly scammers, where does that put the hordes of affiliates who are promoting them? I would guess they would be willing accomplices.....
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              • Profile picture of the author zerofill
                I actually know and have met a good many "Gurus" I guess you could call them...in the telecom industry. They bash each other, they stab each other in the back, etc etc...most of them are millionaires... But there is a big difference between them and a so called IM "Guru"...They aren't out in the public view...Well they are...some of them but not in the same aspect. You might hear a person off the street say..."AT&T ripped me off" Not "Randall Stephenson" ripped me off...

                So it is kind of hard to compare other businesses to IM...
                Mike Filsaime, Frank Kern, John Reese, Eban Pagan, they pretty much are their business...Their name is their business...So when someone cries they got ripped off they are obviously going to use the name.

                Just a hard comparison I feel...

                EDIT: I never met Randall Stephenson by the way just used him because everyone would know AT&T and not so much know the companies I deal with.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jelasco
            Originally Posted by Colin Evans View Post

            Is there any difference between guru bashing and employees bashing their boss?
            Yes, usually your boss doesn't make 10 or 100 times what you do, isn't famous, isn't your competitor, plus you know him/her personally...
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            • Profile picture of the author Colin Evans
              Originally Posted by Jelasco View Post

              Yes, usually your boss doesn't make 10 or 100 times what you do, isn't famous, isn't your competitor, plus you know him/her personally...
              LOL - depends on your point of view, and where you've worked. In most of the organisations I've worked the directors took home much more than 10 times my managers salary, they were my competitors because they had the job I wanted, and I didn't know them personally...

              But I'll agree they weren't famous.
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              • Profile picture of the author John Taylor
                Of course there is the other side of the coin, where a Guru aquires
                a fan club. When the Guru says "Shit!" a thousand arseholes strain
                in unison.

                It's a strange phenoenom when someone somehow becomes a Guru
                based on an event which may be a single product launch supported
                and promoted by already establish names.

                The adoration of fans, the euphoria of one successful event and the
                perceived Guruness creates a hightened state of confidence. The
                Guru then begins to believe his own press, after all all these fans can't
                be wrong?

                Then anyone who challenges or questions the accuracy of this Guru's
                statement becomes labelled as a Guru Basher.

                John
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  John,

                  Excellent points!

                  I could horrify folks here with stories about the trials and tribulations of people who've ignored the admonition to "Never believe your own press."

                  That may be the single most dangerous thing a person can do when they achieve some public success or notoriety.

                  Never give anyone else's opinion too much weight. Your critics don't usually know your character, and your fans don't often know your failures.

                  (That's a good line for Mani's collection, I think.)

                  There's an easy solution for the last part. If you never think of yourself as a "guru," you'll never accuse someone of guru bashing for bashing you.


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author howudoin
                    Couldn't put it better myself!

                    Bashing does provide a natural outlet for people's pent up frustrations and failures. Instead one should derive some value out such posts and approach it as a marketing lesson

                    Regards
                    Bhupinder
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                  • Profile picture of the author williamstarrett
                    Paul,
                    How do you think the personality aspects of promotion come into play on this?

                    To me it seems that, particularly in info products, the personal story is drawn upon quite heavily. You know, the "I started with nothing and then I discovered how to _________. Now I have _________ and you can too."

                    Then, especially in biz opp, you have a good number of these video promotions that include 5-10 minutes of personal story in their "build credibility" phase. Of course this time dwelling heavily on the pictures of them playing in their new found life style before they finally get to their mediocre product.

                    When the dream gets sold and the people who buy the dream get washed ashore after trying to ride it as far as it can go, the people that didn't drown sometimes find themselves with a bitter taste in their mouths.

                    That's one of the brighter sides of promoting services or physical products.

                    With apparel- they see exactly what they are getting and if the shoe fits (literally), they don't send it back. With insurance- people feel they need it and once it's bought, statistically it won't occupy their thoughts again. With bbq grills- the taste of freshly charred meat might be in their thoughts and causing them to hit the order button but it will also be on their plate once they fire the beast up and take their steak off the rack too.

                    It just seems that people (as a crowd) react differently when they are just as pissed at Prada for bad stitching on a six hundred dollar tennis shoe. It might appear as if people are more passionate when a guy who puts his socks on the same way they do sells a giant fully illustrated turd.

                    Is it the name and face? Is it the personality? Is it because "that guy selling me this crap" worked to become familiar and likable and... he even gained (and broke) my trust?

                    I'm always amazed by the vibrato and ego sometimes exhibited by people who teach. Do you think one positioning themselves as a spokesperson is also, at least in some ways, like tossing a giant bulls eye on their back?

                    Or does it even matter?

                    Howdy btw.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Tamer
                      OK... my take on it (for what it worth after this excellent post from Paul)

                      > Why "Guru Bashing" Is So Popular

                      1- Its becoming so easy to "bash!
                      Think about it... blogs and forums are increasingly expanding and becoming more easily accessible/manageable than ever before.

                      This gives a better opportunity for "bashers" to practice their hobby.

                      2- While *some* 'gurus' deserve this type of bashing...
                      Its becoming a habit for lazy people to QUICKLY jump in and start
                      badmouthing whatever the marketer have done/offered/proposed.

                      Most people who "have not make it" yet, think that that the road
                      to success is paved with roses...

                      Thus, when someone launches something... they expect it should be like a magic pill that cures their financial problems.

                      Amazingly, there's no such a thing as a magic wand...
                      So they get mad... and start blaming the guru for his bad attitudes/materials/misleadings etc... etc..

                      My $0.02 as usual

                      Tamer
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    By the way, folks, I wasn't kidding about Michael Stuart Kelly's sig file.

                    "Know thyself."

                    That's major mojo. That's POWER.

                    If you liked the original post in this thread, there's a simple reason for it: It states things you already know. It puts into words things you already feel.

                    That's not special or wise or profound or any other superlative that might be bandied about. It's just that simple: "Know thyself." Then say what you know and other people are leaving alone as feelings.

                    Some of you have heard part of this story. For the rest, it might be useful.

                    My freshman psych professor was a note-nerd. He'd write notes on the board, and you were expected to copy them and know what he meant. One day, he stopped in the middle of what he was writing, tossed the chalk over his shoulder, and said:

                    "I'm about to give you the functional equivalent of a Master's Degree in psychology. Only one or two of you, at most, will understand it:

                    "Every single human being has the same needs, wants and desires. The trick to understanding a person is to know which of them they're trying to satisfy right now, and why they're going about it the way they are.

                    "Class dismissed."


                    True story. His name was Vince, and he taught at Erie Community College, North Campus, in Williamsville, NY, in 1977. He wore an ugly hand knit tie that his wife made him. Because it made her happy.

                    Vince was a genius. He gave us half the formula, and waited to see who'd get the other half. I've told that story a hundred times and more, and never told the other half.

                    In 31 years, 2 people have "got it" without the key. This is the first time I've ever told that "other half."

                    You are the mirror of every human being on the planet.

                    Really. That's it.

                    Everything they feel, you feel. Or can.

                    Everything they want, you want. Or will.

                    You may go about getting it in a different way, but you want, need and desire the same things.

                    If you can just drop your ego long enough to become them, to the extent possible from the clues they leave, you can understand them.

                    This has nothing to do with being profound or intelligent or wise or savvy or anything else.

                    It's all about being HUMAN.

                    That's not just a powerful marketing philosophy. It's a powerful human perspective.

                    And you already know it. You feel it. You might just not have put it into words. You might not have done it yet, because you think it's not really that simple.

                    It's that simple.

                    There you go, folks. My 50th birthday present to you. The most important lesson I have to teach. And it's not my lesson.

                    Thanks, Vince. I still hate that tie. And I still love you for wearing it.


                    Paul
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                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                      Simon,
                      Paul, that is fair enough. I will take my lumps for being anonymous. But once again, unless you see and talk to the person personally there are no real guarantees that who you think you are talking to is truly the person they say they are.
                      My point exactly.

                      It's easy to identify people who want the truth. They look at verifiable facts. They're not didactic, beyond the realm of philosophy. They make truth their goal, not self-idealization.
                      Now, from your perspective....is that really wrong?
                      Not even a little bit wrong, if it's true. It's what I would hope everyone would do.

                      But we don't know if it's true in any case, and we have no evidence whatsoever in the case of an anonymous entity.

                      Bill,

                      Good questions. For each individual case, apply what I wrote in my last post and you'll have good answers for yourself.

                      And howdy to you, too, Sir!


                      Paul
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                    • Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      By the way, folks, I wasn't kidding about Michael Stuart Kelly's sig file.

                      "Know thyself."

                      That's major mojo. That's POWER.
                      Paul,

                      Thank you for the attention. I appreciate it since I am a newcomer. But I was really pleased to see someone "get it" so soon around here. (In other words, we are the foundation of the best customer profile we could ever imagine.)

                      I would love to take credit for that quote, but it comes from a man far, far wiser than me—except for his choice of beverage. :-)

                      (If anybody doesn't get that one, I will explain it later.)

                      I think it is safe to say that a person who bashes gurus just to vent does not know himself very well. So what do we say about a person who bashes the majority of humanity?

                      Think about it. How many times have you read a report or product and it contains the phrase, "Most people think that..." or "Most people imagine..." or "Most people don't..."

                      This is always followed by an explanation of how wrong or foolish they are and then the "real truth" of the matter.

                      How on earth can a person know what most people think? Has he met them? That's well over 3 billion people speaking I don't know how many languages.

                      I admit it takes a certain amount of conceit to bash a guru if you are not successful, but it takes a hell of lot of overblown self-image to bash that many people and expect to be right.

                      :-)

                      Michael
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                    • Profile picture of the author purplecone
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      My freshman psych professor was a note-nerd. He'd write notes on the board, and you were expected to copy them and know what he meant. One day, he stopped in the middle of what he was writing, tossed the chalk over his shoulder, and said:

                      "I'm about to give you the functional equivalent of a Master's Degree in psychology. Only one or two of you, at most, will understand it:

                      "Every single human being has the same needs, wants and desires. The trick to understanding a person is to know which of them they're trying to satisfy right now, and why they're going about it the way they are.

                      "Class dismissed."

                      True story. His name was Vince, and he taught at Erie Community College, North Campus, in Williamsville, NY, in 1977. He wore an ugly hand knit tie that his wife made him. Because it made her happy.

                      Vince was a genius. He gave us half the formula, and waited to see who'd get the other half. I've told that story a hundred times and more, and never told the other half.

                      In 31 years, 2 people have "got it" without the key. This is the first time I've ever told that "other half."

                      You are the mirror of every human being on the planet.

                      Really. That's it.

                      Everything they feel, you feel. Or can.

                      Everything they want, you want. Or will.

                      You may go about getting it in a different way, but you want, need and desire the same things.

                      If you can just drop your ego long enough to become them, to the extent possible from the clues they leave, you can understand them.

                      This has nothing to do with being profound or intelligent or wise or savvy or anything else.

                      It's all about being HUMAN.

                      That's not just a powerful marketing philosophy. It's a powerful human perspective.

                      And you already know it. You feel it. You might just not have put it into words. You might not have done it yet, because you think it's not really that simple.

                      It's that simple.

                      There you go, folks. My 50th birthday present to you. The most important lesson I have to teach. And it's not my lesson.

                      Thanks, Vince. I still hate that tie. And I still love you for wearing it.


                      Paul
                      Hi, Paul,

                      This relevation is the reason we can enjoy a movie, or a book. Because at the core everyone is very much alike, we are able to emotionally bond with specific characters or live vicariously through our on screen 'heroes.'

                      Our ability to 'put ourselves in the shoes of others' is what makes it possible to make any kind of connection with anyone else.

                      Applying this concept to marketing just makes sense.

                      Thank you for sharing your experience with your instructor. Moments like those are invaluable.

                      Linda Pogue
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      • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
        Some excellent thinking going on in this thread (And some less so)

        I believe when we see; guru bashing, extreme negativity and mindless arguments, we are simply witnessing the Natural Selection of the IM world in action.

        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Paul, you've basically summed up everything that's wrong with Internet
        marketing in your post. It goes far beyond guru bashing. It goes to the core
        of the reason why so many people fail.
        Quite true, Steven. It's one of the big reasons why people fail.

        When folk come on here and bash the gurus, I suppose we have a question to ask ourselves though; Do we jump in and 'put the record straight' with our opinion, or do we just sit back and let 'natural selection' run its course, allow them to fail and thereby self-police the IM world, at very least this forum?

        I must admit, even though I consider myself humanitarian, I've let them stew. My justification is that debating the subjects very rarely changes the entrenched mindset and, in fact, just fuels the fire.

        Let them go do their thing. It's their thing. Not mine.

        Peter
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  • Profile picture of the author Elmer Hurlstone
    Oscar Wilde said, "There is always something about your success that displeases even your best friends."

    "Gurus" are, by definition, successful.

    Two of the more common human emotions are envy and jealousy. Carried to extremes they often lead to anger directed toward the perceived cause. Anger often results in violence. Online it is "virtual violence" also known as "bashing."

    What a terrible waste of energy.

    Whatever success you or I may or may not have achieved is not, in most cases, determined by the actions of others.

    Life is entirely too short to spend grumbling, griping and trying to pull someone off the ladder.

    Elmer Hurlstone
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post



    Next is that a lot of people confuse results with skill, and experience with expertise. I think it was Elmer Hurlstone who recently reminded me that some folks consider the same year of experience, repeated ten times, to qualify as ten years of experience.

    People who have the same year of experience, and keep repeating that year, are often the loudest in proclaiming their definitive knowledge on a thing. Including when faced with someone who's spent 5 years trying and testing and proving many more things than that first person will ever do.

    On top of that, there is a ton of information out there on the subject, and most people consuming it have very little of the experience needed to properly evaluate that information. They read a bit and think that makes them experts.

    The low barrier to entry in this field ensures that we're going to see a lot of people in it with extremely poor critical thinking skills.


    Paul
    Those paragraphs sum up a lot of the negativity that we get exposed to on forums.

    Nice post Paul, thanks for sharing.
    Signature

    nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author Chipt
    IMO, this could well be the best thread I've personally read on this forum since 2003...

    And since it came from Paul, that's not surpising at all... and if you're not on the TalkBiz list -- [put simply] IMO you're castrating your own online marketing efforts, impeding your own learning curve, and wasting valuable time and money.

    And while his monicker here might be drunk hamster, old fart, geek of the week, zen redneck, coors king or whatever as it changes over time...

    'Jedi Knight' might be more accurate for Mr. Myers.

    [No I am not sucking up to Paul. I firmly believe what I just said because over the last 5 or so years I've known Paul personally he walks the talk and can be trusted 100% of the time. He also does not have a 'fake' bone in his body. And wow -- if you've ever worked with him the dude has a long bull whip and he is deadly accurate with it, too. He can skin the fuzz off a peach at 10 paces, and he always cracks it with your best intentions at heart.]

    {Note to Paul -- didn't mean to make you out as 'human' there...}



    Onward. That said, and snd since I cannot bite my tongue and be quiet here [yeah that's a big surprise to people who know me,] I'll duct tape all 10 of my chubby fingers together and refrain from writing a long dissertation as to why I think the bashing occurs, why some deserve it and others don't, and why you should drink in the words our friend Mr. Myers says like a thirsty person in the desert...

    ... because Paul IS someone you can trust in this 'game.'

    [... and - yuck this flippin' duct tape is really sticky...]


    Here is a sprinkling of my moments of temporary [?] madness I had just now reading this entire well-thought-out thread [in most instances well-thought-out any way] ...
    • wisdom
    • experience
    • perception
    • trust
    • truth
    • fact
    • honesty
    • anonymous
    • ridiculous
    • feeding frenzy
    • herd instinct
    • branding
    • positioning
    • survival of the fittest
    There - that saved at least an hour of typing with this d*mn duct tape on my fingers.

    Thanks again, Paul, for your passion, sharing, and wisdom...

    Rock On, Warriors -

    Chip Tarver
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Chipt View Post

      IMO, this could well be the best thread I've personally read on this forum since 2003...

      And since it came from Paul, that's not surpising at all... and if you're not on the TalkBiz list -- [put simply] IMO you're castrating your own online marketing efforts, impeding your own learning curve, and wasting valuable time and money.
      Chip, I've only known Paul since I've been at this forum but I can honestly
      say that he's probably the brightest and most down to Earth guy I've met
      online. If I could have a week to pick his brain, I'd do it, but I have too much
      respect for his time to even hint at the possibility (which I think I just did,
      ooops), but he's knows me well enough by now to know I'd never impose
      on him. Besides, his newsletters are gold anyway. What I learned about
      email marketing from one of them, you couldn't get out of a dozen high
      priced books on the subject.

      I don't know how he got so smart. We're the same age, but I'm a dumb
      jackrabbit next to him, and I've got a 148 IQ. How he thinks of this stuff
      (this thread is a perfect example) is beyond me. His deductive reasoning
      matches that of Sherlock Holmes...and that dude isn't even a real human
      being.

      I know it sounds like I'm sucking up, but I'm not. If I had to trust my
      business future to just one person in this world, it would be Paul and I
      wouldn't even sweat one bullet over it.

      And that's coming from a guy who worries about everything.
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      • Profile picture of the author Colin Evans
        As opposed to Marketing, Economics or Psychology though, in Internet Marketing you do not see teachings being grounded into scientific methods, what you see more is opinions, such as I did this and it worked hence I will generalise that it works for everyone else. No more "experiments" are needed, its time to make the dosh.

        I think the Industry needs to move away from its "childish" behaviour and have some respect for itself. That will not happen until people try to make it a science. Hence use scientifical methods.
        Many of the products I've read instruct you to test, test and test some more... The idea being to use whatever is proven to work for your particular marketing setup.

        Sure, marketers give you their opinions, but many recommend you do your own testing. In my view that leans toward scientific, not childish behaviour...

        I would suggest that marketers (gurus) who instruct their customers to test various options to discover those which are the most profitable (scientific marketing) will get bashed because they do not hand the information to their customers (childish marketing)...
        Signature

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        • Profile picture of the author davebo
          Banned
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          • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
            Isn't it amazing that despite the extremely eloquent OP and some fantastic subsequent comments, some people read what they want, pull it through their negative filters, and manage to miss the point entirely.

            More to the point, they don't seem to mind how foolish it makes them look on this forum.

            Regardless of whether people are anonymous or whether they post up an avatar, we're all forming opinions of each other. It just goes further to prove:

            It's not what you know
            It's not even who you know
            It's what you know about who you know

            And what we know about people is what we see them post.

            Peter
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            • Profile picture of the author davebo
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              • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                I believe that Internet Marketing is as much a science as Marketing, Economics, or Psychology.
                It's about as much a science as an armchair psychiatrist.

                Any marketing theory has only to be tested to be proven or disproven to work in a certain framework. I've never seen a "science" without educational or research requirements to becoming an "expert".

                This forum is supposed to teach how we make money? We all have been taught certainly and we probably have bashed teachers. But would you say they did not deserve it?
                Where is the payoff for bashing? Does it release anger and frustration, does it add credibility to the basher, does it change anything? There is always a payoff, but it's seldom the reason given for the bashing.

                "Every single human being has the same needs, wants and desires. The trick to understanding a person is to know which of them they're trying to satisfy right now, and why they're going about it the way they are.
                Paul, that's one of the best quotes I've seen anywhere. If you can master that "trick to understanding", you can make any business (or friendship) work.

                When people are bashing, the subtext is "me, me, me" - when they are marketing effectively, it's about "you".

                kay
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                • Profile picture of the author williamstarrett
                  Paul,
                  Doing as you suggested, here's what I arrived to:

                  The man who got wet while standing in the rain shouldn't curse the rain, he should instead take responsibility for standing in the rain's path.

                  Forgive me, I couldn't resist a nature metaphor since we're talking about nature anyway.
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                  • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                    Hi Paul,

                    Every single human being has the same needs, wants and desires
                    I can't believe you're suggesting you have the same wants, needs and desires as me. Sheesh, and I thought you had at least a little class - I never thought you'd stoop that low...

                    Nice posts.
                    Signature


                    Roger Davis

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                • Profile picture of the author Simon_Sezs
                  Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                  Where is the payoff for bashing? Does it release anger and frustration, does it add credibility to the basher, does it change anything? There is always a payoff, but it's seldom the reason given for the bashing.
                  kay
                  I think that maybe giving a poor review for a product or commenting on an author's propensity to creating poor products might not be considered guru bashing....

                  As for agenda, I guess you can say there is always an agenda in all things we do, big or small, whether it is as small as getting attention right now, agreeing with someone (or disagreeing) in the hopes of fitting in or as apparently is my case (although it wasn't intended) NOT fitting in.

                  "Every single human being has the same needs, wants and desires. The trick to understanding a person is to know which of them they're trying to satisfy right now, and why they're going about it the way they are."

                  Paul, that little paragraph is what separates the hugely successful from those that are marginally successful, if that. That little paragraph is probably worth more than half of the 'make money' e-books and interview audios out there.

                  "Isn't it amazing that despite the extremely eloquent OP and some fantastic subsequent comments, some people read what they want, pull it through their negative filters, and manage to miss the point entirely.

                  More to the point, they don't seem to mind how foolish it makes them look on this forum.
                  "

                  Peter, just b/c something is written eloquently doesn't mean that I can't have an opposing opinion and just b/c I have an opposing opinion (not entirely opposing though) doesn't mean that that somehow makes me foolish or that I don't "get it".

                  It is real easy to dismiss someone's comments as foolish but that is the easy way out. And in this case, it is the more popular way out. Just b/c I disagree with the majority of IMers on this point shouldn't preclude me from conversation. The way I look at it, I think you should question everything and come up with your own truth. I can respect someone and disagree with them at the same time.

                  I am not some 18 year old kid that read a couple e-books and decided to try my hand at making it in guruland. On the contrary, I like many here, consider myself a lifelong student and besides enjoying the coffee shop talk about whether bashers have no business bashing or should just take their medicine and move on, I do think that I learn abit here and there on this forum. And by the way.....that is my true agenda.

                  On a side note, we have talked about the purpose of why guru bashing exists on this thread....on a separate but completely similar note , you have to wonder what the agenda of this thread is.

                  So if the guru bashers truly have an agenda (something I can't refute...like I said, everyone has an agenda....you wake up with an agenda), this must be an "anti-guru bashers bashers". So what is the agenda?

                  • Is it to protect the gurus who are being bashed?
                  • Is it to add more credibility and attention to the poster so someone will sign up to their newsletter (sorry Paul, couldn't resist..and for anyone thinking I am making a cut, Paul is one of the better storytelling marketers out there)?
                  • Is it to provoke a reaction and test the reaction of the forum itself to see where the majority mindset is?
                  "Hogwash - no real, successful business is built without establishing credibilty and that includes the person or people behind it. I've sat here thinking long and hard of even one business, in any market, online or off that achieved success anonymously and I can't think of any."

                  Big Mike, Once again, not true.....well maybe but you are missing my point. Most people on this forum associate credibility with a name and face. I am saying that you can have credibility without it. Maybe not on this forum. But there are lots of people who adon't use their real names that are considered credible. It just peeves me off to see this mumbo jumbo that you can't be successful without being transparent.

                  Credibility comes in many forms and fashions and the online world makes it so credibility can be deduced down to something as simple as the "front page of google", or how many posts you have in a forum.

                  Social proof may be important if you are trying to make a name for yourself online, brand wise, but it isn't indicative of how much money you make (unless you are gunning to be a speaker aka "guru")

                  There are plenty of people that are running numerous clickbank accounts, run adsense accounts using different LLC business names and other aliases as well as other affiliate networks. It is the truth.

                  The reason they do this? To protect and separate their businesses from the prying eyes of other IMers who would love to see what they are doing and duplicate it. To hide thier backlinks from their competitors by obsfuscating connections.

                  I think where most people get confused is that they associate the internet marketing world with the internet marketing niche. The internet marketing world is so much bigger than the MMO niche and people get caught up in creating products and e-books and chasing the "i want to be a guru" dream. With that in mind and because so many people get mugged by outright scams and shoddy products, I would imagine that your real name would add a little to credibility.

                  But not necessary. Take Eric Rockefeller for example. He is a mid tier guru who makes his living putting out products designed with the internet marketer in mind. Do you really buy that that is his real name? Maybe it is...but probably not.

                  • PPC campaigns don't need "credibility", especially for CPA ads that are redirected. Show me the where credibility is necessary in this case. And the truth is that thousands of people are doing it, so I guess it would be safe to assume that someone out there is earning a living from it.
                  • All of those bum marketers trying to pimp whatever they are selling who use an alias don't necessarily have to be credible outright. And to be honest,it is a necessary evil (who is going to buy bras from a balding 35 year old man?).
                  • Being on the front page of google via organic search actually gives almost automatic credibility to the website. A buddy of mine (who has more aliases than me btw), who ranks high for the keyword make money online actually earns a very decent living from his bevy of sites. His so called "credibility" really came to light as he rose in the SERPS.
                  • Good information lends more credibility online than anything else (and if you are talking about the MMO niche, I am not talking about the crap that you read on most follower blogs and websites..,.I mean really valuable information).
                  • Obviously social proof lends automatic credibility (which can be gamed by the way) if the person doing the suggesting is respected. This really shows up in the higher up "guru" food chain. It is an incestuous bunch up at the top that basically promote each other products thus giving each promoter more credibility.
                  • Of course, from a forum perspective, the amount of posts you have lends itself to credibility which in turn turns to sales. It is just a fact. And that is whether you are giving your name, social security number and checking account information or whether you are anonymous. The truth is that people start to identify you with whatever "username" you associate yourself with. I know. I have a couple niches where I am very well known and addressed by my username in emails.
                  When the rubber hits the road..what it all boils down to isn't really about someone giving their digits and birth certificate up....it is all about the information they give. That is the bottom line.

                  And that is primarily the reason why I subscribe to Paul's newsletter...not because he states his name (it could be an alias for all I care)...not because he is a senior member of this forum and has 1000's of posts....not because most here worship the ground he walks on......

                  It is because he gives good information.

                  What I am saying is that people can spout off all they want about how a "real" name somehow will make them more credible and that being transparent has some sort of bearing on how much money you make. I am going to state flatly it simply ain't true. It may be true in this forum, but it ain't true in internet la la land.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jelasco
            Originally Posted by davebo View Post

            I don't think it has as much to do with people just taking things out on gurus and more to do with this whole act that most gurus put on like the "I'm your friend", "I want to see you succeed", etc.

            The reason I think most gurus are full of crap is that they are insincere.
            How do you know it's an act? You have proof that none of them want you to succeed?

            Wouldn't it be better for them if you bought their product and got good results? Wouldn't that make you more likely to buy from them again?

            Is it possible that some of them might like it if people who bought their products were successful?

            How do you know they are insincere? How many of them have you met or talked to?
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  • Profile picture of the author braver55b
    I'm a 100% capitalist and know that alot of people bash gurus out of envy, however I came accross a post yesterday and thought it was a typical socialist attack on successful internet

    marketers, until I viewed a video the poster made where he recorded at least two phone calls with well known guru Jo Han Mok and a student of his trying to get back his 15k after alot of

    "song and dance" bs by Johan This guy never got his money back. In fact when this guy called back, Johan had his girlfriend promised to contact him via email, which was another line of BS.

    Which to me, suggest treading carefully.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Dave,
      Yeah, not sure how you can say we all have the same needs, wants, desires.
      Because we do. Note that, other than the basic survival requirements, those are emotional things. Whatever "stuff" we decide will satisfy them is part of the "how we go about getting them."

      For example, suppose a guy wants status. He might try to get it with a new car, lots of women around him, upscale clothing or jewelry, alpha male behavior patterns, developing social connections, or a host of other approaches. Including putting other people down. (One of the least effective, as you know.)

      There's no neat list of reasons for each way of trying to satisfy the want. You can't say, "Car? He has mother issues." "Jewelry? Abused as a child." Etc.

      The cool thing is, you don't need to know why he's chosen that approach to deal with him effectively. Want to satisfy someone's need for status? Listen attentively.

      Does that clarify it some?
      It's a little simplistic to think that we all bash gurus because we are frustrated by our lack of success.
      Yes, it is. If you look at the original post, you'll note some reasons that could as easily apply to people at any level of financial success.

      I'm also not saying that all negative comments about people are bashing, by the way. Sometimes they're simple truth. You can usually tell the difference from the choice of words.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Jason,

        Opinions are inevitable. The trick is, as you say, to understand their correlation to facts.
        Negative people do not exist. They are people with a problem.
        That's just explaining WHY they're negative. It doesn't make them go away.

        There are people who have developed a negative outlook as their primary way of viewing the world. Most of them are aware of it and can choose to be different. (I didn't say it was easy, just possible.)

        Some aren't even aware of it.

        Bottom line: It doesn't matter to most folks why the negative types are negative. What matters is that they tend to drag others into their unhappy state. Joe Jeneral doesn't care why, and has no desire to "fix" them or to create problems for them. So, he'll just avoid and ignore. It's the most rational response available to him.
        As for calling gurus scammers, this field is hyped to the extreme, some times you can find the same information much much cheaper from well known sources.
        Those are two separate issues.

        Hype? The statements are either true or they're not. If there's a lie, call them on it. If you don't like the tone of the advertising, say that. Using vague words like "hype" is rarely useful in critiquing something or someone.

        Pricing? By itself, it's got nothing to do with ethics. If I say, "I have a pint of strawberries here, and I'll sell them to you for $100," is that unethical?

        A lot of the bashing is a result of being unclear on terms. Confusing opinion with fact, as you warned us not to do.

        It also quite often involves linking a bunch of unrelated things in a way that creates an unfounded impression. Like the last statement of yours which I quoted.

        In my experience, people who dislike or are afraid of opinions don't really understand what they are.
        Trust has been erased, authority is simply an illusion conveyed through well known tricks.
        Trust and authority are earned things. If the price of earning them goes up, they'll be more valued. I think that's a good thing.
        In the Internet Marketing industry it is like walking in the jungle, hardly any decency, saness or civilisation from the mighty teachers.
        If that's what you want to see, that's what you'll see. If that's what you expect from people, you'll do things in a way that ensures you get just that.

        My experience with most of the people in this business is that they really do want you to succeed. They are genuinely sincere. They also know that you have to do most of it on your own, and they'll expect you to put in the same effort they did to get what they got.

        They hope their information will make it easier for you, but they don't have a lot of time for people who want everything, now.

        Seems reasonable to me.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Simon,
          So what is the agenda?
          Another excellent question. Goes right back to the paragraph you liked from my old teacher.

          What result am I hoping for from posting this comment and starting this discussion? In no particular order:

          More people seeing the distinction between bashing and legitimate criticism. That will hopefully lead to more clear thinking and expression, which saves everyone time and effort.

          More people becoming better equipped to deal with bashers. That will tend to discourage some of it. It will also save me some time.

          A few people realizing that they are bashing, and that it's neither useful to others or beneficial to themselves. (Not bloody likely, but it would be nice.)

          Answering a question that gets asked all the time, and which I don't recall anyone answering in detail. I'm sure many people have at some point, and I just haven't seen it. This may be a useful thread to point folks to when they ask in the future.

          To make people think.

          It was also a fun little exercise in putting into words something I've thought about a lot and never written down.

          To address the possibilities you mentioned...

          I don't need to "protect the gurus." They're the least of my concerns in this, frankly. I'm interested in protecting new folks from bad information that can hurt their chances of succeeding.

          I'd also enjoy seeing more clear thinking, which I view as positive, rather than so many whiners.

          Getting subscribers? That would be a legitimate goal, but it's unlikely to be served by this kind of post, in this forum. Most of the people here who understand the value of this sort of thinking to their business, and who are likely to subscribe based on a post like this, have already signed up.

          To provoke a reaction? That's always part of any post, yes?

          To gauge the majority mindset? Nope. Maybe to alter it a bit, but not to gauge it.

          All reasonable suggestions, though.
          What I am saying is that people can spout off all they want about how a "real" name somehow will make them more credible and that being transparent has some sort of bearing on how much money you make. I am going to state flatly it simply ain't true. It may be true in this forum, but it ain't true in internet la la land.
          Agreed. It's true for your activities IN THIS FORUM. Hasn't much to do with a lot of things outside of it.


          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author olbiz4cash
    I think that the reason Internet Marketing Guru bashing happens so much is because there is a lot of success in Internet Marketing and those who aren't successful want to go after those who are...just my two cents.

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    • Profile picture of the author Colin Evans
      John, that Amazon example was fascinating...

      I never read all the testimonials, but my perception was the bashers had never tried it but could find plenty of excuses why it was a scam.

      On the opposite side of the spectrum were the people who tried it, found success and were full of praise and thanks...

      Was the system a scam?
      Was it medically safe?
      Is it even legal?

      I don't know, but it sure seemed effective for some people, and certainly changed their lives.

      I guess it all comes down to your point of view about a guru (and their products) being sculpted by the relationship between your expectations, the real or imagined effort required, and your real or imagined final result...
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      • Profile picture of the author John Rowe
        Originally Posted by Colin Evans View Post

        I never read all the testimonials, but my perception was...
        Colin, that makes perfect sense. But remember, perception isn't sex.
        Take your time. Premature Perception ain't pretty.


        .
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        • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
          I'm am always amazed at what an incredible waste of time and energy guru bashing is.

          1. You're pissing off the person you're bashing and everyone who trusts and respects that person (keep in mind that many will have very good reasons for that trust and respect).

          2. It's time you could have spent building relationships with the people in the business you do trust and have respect for.


          3. "Guru bashing" is negative criticism that has no constructive help for anyone. If you don't like something why not just think of what you'd like to see instead and talk about that.

          Thinking that way can actually give you some marketing breakthroughs of your own.

          You don't need to be negative and you're missing out on a genuine opportunity to improve your own marketing by doing better than the "gurus".


          4. If by chance you do attract some customers to you with your guru bashing think through what kind of customers they're going to be.

          People who are attracted to the negative put downs of other people generally do not make very good clients. Expect a high level of refunds and expect to get some serious bashing yourself.


          5. Ultimately if the "gurus" are so bad then this is a fabulous opportunity for you to do better and take over the market (instead of sitting on your arse complaining that someone else didn't make you rich).

          Kindest regards,
          Andrew Cavanagh
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  • Somebody actually referred to me as a 'guru' the other day. Here was my reply:

    "Hey, watch that 'guru' stuff! I know what I know and I use it. If that makes people gurus, the bar is set too low!"
    Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author eprenuer
    Banned
    great article, I do agree with this. not all proclaimed experts really are.
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  • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
    Banned
    This thread simply needs to be seen again. Especially in light of recent political protests.
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  • Profile picture of the author magiclouie
    I hear you Sir Paul.

    You are pretty-spot with your write-up.

    You have fully made yourself very clear.
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  • Profile picture of the author lotsofsnow
    .. just an excellent post. Thank you Paul.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      This one is a pretty good example of how some things stay the same. The OP is every bit as accurate now as it was when I wrote it three years ago.

      I should post that on my blog.


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      • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        This one is a pretty good example of how some things stay the same. The OP is every bit as accurate now as it was when I wrote it three years ago.

        I should post that on my blog.


        Paul
        Better still, do a follow-up for your newsletter. Or possibly even a full-blown report, something like the Wombat Report.

        Another reason for the Guru bashing (I think you went over this in your OP, I'm not sure because of the wording), is entitlement. People are brought up to believe that they're owed something.

        This could be a result of poor parenting or our current Industrial-minded school system. But people seem to expect that if they "do" something (like work), then they're "owed" something (such as a paycheck).

        Not so in an online business. There are no guarantees.

        Or perhaps it's because Gurus are viewed as "teachers". In the public school system, teachers share their knowledge for free. So people have the expectation that this holds true in other fields such as IM, and get offended when Gurus do not share their information for free, or simply don't have time to help "the little guy", because "the little guy" thinks that's the right thing for the Guru to do; to help the less fortunate, because the guru was where they were at one point in time. Or because the guru "owes them because they're their customer and without the customer the guru would be nothing". Or a host of other "reasons".

        That's another problem; our society empowers offended people via lawsuits and giving them attention. People are just waiting to be offended so they can get attention, push their political agenda, or try to bully someone into agreeing with them.

        Perhaps they think if they get offended and call out the Guru, and get the support of others, then the Guru will "have" to admit they're wrong, and apologize and help the newbie.

        This doesn't happen, so they get even more offended and hold a grudge that lasts forever.

        Just some random thoughts. Not sure if I'm even making sense right now.
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  • Profile picture of the author PandaPoacher
    Interesting topic. Personally I see people hating on the gurus for one reason, when a new person fails at IM I suppose they need someone to blame. It's something the guru's take and do well at getting over.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Thank you to whoever it was that resurrected this thread. I hadn't seen it and it was a great read. It's also a thread that's needed right now.

      I have noticed a lot of "guru" bashing lately - not just bashing gurus but bashing marketing methods and other things. Most of what I've seen has been ridiculous but there is always a bunch of people jumping in to bash whatever the OP bashed.

      One thing I've noticed is that rarely are the bashers actually successful. I don't think that's a coincidence.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dr Dan
    This is so true in every industry and walk of life.

    Some people just like to complain and put down others because it distracts them from their own problems that they are trying to avoid.

    Its like my friend Guru Singh says, "You cant breath for them, they must breath on their own."

    Meaning that they will go through life putting down others or trying to bring you and everyone into their world of pain and suffering.

    But you can not teach them to move past this. It is not your responsibility and better to just let them pass you by and someday learn the lessons on their own.

    More than likely it will not be in this lifetime. But many after... So dont waste your time on this earth with them.



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  • Profile picture of the author AdwordsMogul
    You know, it's true that some "gurus" are not really "legit".

    However, if you are smart, you'll never depend entirely on a single view point.

    Also, I've bought some crap products in the past - BUT I don't complain because often they still somehow stimulate my brain to come out with something useful.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dr Dan
      Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul View Post

      You know, it's true that some "gurus" are not really "legit".
      Its funny how the word Guru is so missunderstood and thrown around.

      'gu' and 'ru',

      (Pronounced Goo-Roo), the former signifying 'darkness',
      and the latter signifying 'the destroyer of that [darkness]', hence a
      guru or gooroo is one who brings one from (darkness), to illumination (light).


      Basically a Guru is just a teacher... So to say one is not a legit or real guru is like saying this person cant teach a single thing to anyone in the world. not even a toddler...lol

      We are all Guru's in one way and more



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  • Profile picture of the author asmartbuy
    It definitely more a marketing tactic, than a genuine attack.
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  • Profile picture of the author azmanar
    Hi,

    Thank you for this excellent post.

    I'd say this is the most comprehensive explanation about what is really going on in the IM and non-IM scene. It explains a lot more than just Guru Bashing.

    Paul,

    May I have the permission to republish this article in some of my blogs and forums? I promise to stick your product links in the republications.

    Ok?
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by azmanar View Post

      Paul,

      May I have the permission to republish this article



      If I had posted this article here, it might have gone the way of the do-do bird.



      Paul knows what I am on about... :p
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      • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        If I had posted this article here, it might have gone the way of the do-do bird.



        Paul knows what I am on about... :p

        "You sir, are no Paul Myers..."




        Just Kidding...:p

        ~Bill
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

          "You sir, are no Paul Myers..."




          Just Kidding...:p

          ~Bill

          It suddenly hit me. My head is bigger than Dan Quayle's head.

          I must have more stuff in mine. :p
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Azmanar,
            May I have the permission to republish this article in some of my blogs and forums? I promise to stick your product links in the republications.
            Sure. Just include a link to my newsletter.

            Dennis,
            Quite a few of the excellent follow-up posts are names we don't see around here too much anymore. That's a shame. Might just be that "forum bashing" got to a few of them. Something to think about when you disagree with someone.
            That is a deliberate tactic used by some of these people. They want to have things their way, and they'll attack people in order to try and drive them out.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Dennis,That is a deliberate tactic used by some of these people. They want to have things their way, and they'll attack people in order to try and drive them out.
              Paul
              Sigh. That's an even sadder state of affairs than I had supposed. It shouldn't surprise me, and I guess it doesn't, but I hadn't even considered that it might be intentional.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Excellent post by Paul, and several excellent follow-up posts. Quite a few of the excellent follow-up posts are names we don't see around here too much anymore. That's a shame. Might just be that "forum bashing" got to a few of them. Something to think about when you disagree with someone. Much of the time, the fact that we disagree isn't near as important as how we disagree.
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    • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
      You can tell this thread was posted before the "thanks" button was implemented -- here we are on Page 3 of a Paul Myers' post, and there are less than 20 thanks.



      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Quite a few of the excellent follow-up posts are names we don't see around here too much anymore.
      At least one has crossed the Great Divide (RIP, Bev).


      ***

      Great points about how the negative voice seemingly becomes the majority (because the positive would rather not engage with the negative). We see that here on this forum from time to time -- but what's really sad are that there are ENTIRE forums built around negativity, guru bashing, etc. I can't imagine how long someone can stay healthy if they wallow in that kind of toxic sludge day after day.


      ***

      And then there are the members that keep coming back to this forum, no matter how hard we bash 'em. They're like those bad pennies that keep turning up. Goll dang those old timers who just won't go away...


      Becky
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Bashers aren't more prevalent in IM than in science, I don't think. You should see some of the scuffles I've been privvy to in areas such as treasure hunting, technological devices to do so, archaeology, paleontology, climatology. Those disciplines are a battlefield and nothing short of.

    The only reason you don't hear more about these scuffles is that those with the ranking credentials are more able to squelch the publicity of opposing voices than you see in the IM areas.

    Then, too, as you say - some people seem to be able to become experts just by watching a discovery channel propaganda video or reading a few magazine articles. Once they've seen the info put out by the "authorities", they don't have the neural firing power to see the illogical slant of the position when placed against the lesser known, but more viable research conclusions.

    Those in scientific positions of authority are very jealous of their theories and credentials and will go to all extremes to keep them. This stuff I see in IM is lightweight crap in comparison.

    The ability in IM for anyone to voice an opinion isn't a really a bad thing. Those without the capability get sorted out rapidly - as well as who can be depended on for a solid opinion or deal and who can't. The fisticuffs just don't hold up as strongly or as long to full public scrutiny.
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  • Profile picture of the author dugu56
    Isn't backstabbing as well as badmouthing a Big NO NO in every IM course? Yet is very much used and thus abused all the time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Stevie9
    Absolutely spot on my man, hit the nail on the head!
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    I suspect because the term "guru" is so easily thrown about, some folks tend to bash it because they have conflicting advice from others or their own experience
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  • Profile picture of the author sal64
    Totally awesome thread.

    Here's my simple minded spin...

    Deep down, people want to believe. No matter how obvious the reality, they will go into denial. They want to believe.

    Deep down, they want to be like the gurus (I know I do). They want the fame and fortune. After all, what's the quickest way to climb the mountain, right? Learn from the ones who have climbed it already.

    But when they screw up, it's the gurus fault. I am yet to see a guru put a gun to my head and force me to buy their product. I have done so by my own volition.

    Sadly, scapegoats are a part of life. People will always blame some one else in order to validate their innocence when they fail. Often it's just an outlet for pent up frustrations with their own life and shyte.

    They come looking for a solution. They come in optimistically... and often come out misty-optically.

    Always was... always will be.
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  • Profile picture of the author ReachOneMedia
    As the monkey climb the tree, more exposed become his ass...

    So when people bash on you or on your product, keep climbing you're on the right path!

    hope this help

    J
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    The worst of it is those sites out there that cater for the vilification of successfull people think they are the good guys and they are not. they're the bad guys

    I'm thinking of the blog were banned from even mentioning, that set itself up as judge jury and hangman, some of the vilification that was used was disgusting.

    And it beats the hell out of me why people want to hang around with negative and dissaffected people, it rubs off guys and and the smell never goes away.

    heck i dont even watch the news or read newspapers because they're full of the "end of the world is nigh" stories

    negativity isnt life threatening, just dont get any on you
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  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    Becky - Yep, Bev was a valuable member here. RIP

    And then there are the members that keep coming back to this forum, no matter how hard we bash 'em.
    Thick skin! Seriously though, it's a good thing they do because if not for some of the old timers, yourself included, and some of the newer members that get it, this place would turn into something entirely different and far less useful.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      Becky - Yep, Bev was a valuable member here. RIP



      Thick skin! Seriously though, it's a good thing they do because if not for some of the old timers, yourself included, and some of the newer members that get it, this place would turn into something entirely different and far less useful.
      That may be true Dennis...then again, some other responsible people may rise up from the ranks and take on the roll of responsible members. You never know.

      And agreed about Bev.
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  • Profile picture of the author jryan8121
    Good points... I think that the negative comments generally outweigh the positive. Most people who have a negative experience are going to "cry and moan" about it all over the internet... while those with a positive experience generally don't go out of their way to let everyone know why they had a positive experience. I wish they would!
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  • Profile picture of the author Loraine321
    Banned
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    • Profile picture of the author JAIDEEP2959
      People get frustrated after trying a lot in internet marketing. When they lose faith in money making from internet marketing they start bashing Gurus. It gives them attention also.
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      • Profile picture of the author Joshua Rigley
        Banned
        Originally Posted by JAIDEEP2959 View Post

        People get frustrated after trying a lot in internet marketing. When they lose faith in money making from internet marketing they start bashing Gurus. It gives them attention also.
        That's also quite common, we see it a lot on this forum. Kinda sad really. It's easy to get overwhelmed by all the info, and to pin the blame on someone else because their product or service wasn't exactly what you thought it was.
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  • Profile picture of the author WebPen
    How about...

    Guru bashing is popular because it uses the power of association to influence the reader.

    Since you're bashing the guru, it means you must be a struggling lower person, which means you're just like me.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    There are also people who take aim at the wrong people. The guru groupies can be pretty sickening sometimes. Star-struck into complete stupidity. When some people bash - they are actually aiming more at the groupies than the guru. When they bash the guru what they are trying to elicit is the stupidity of worshiping anyone just because they have a name. Seriously, when I got online there were a few "gurus" that could have told people that if they ate cold dung before using their computer they'd succeed and masses of their followers would have done so.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve B
      The question begs asking:

      Why doesn't the industry do a better job of policing its own ranks?

      Many industries require some sort of licensing or certification in order to claim the status of "guru" (only they call it doctor, or lawyer, or CPA, or travel agent, or beautician, or realtor, or . . . some level of experience or proficiency that is recognized in the niche).

      The answer, I believe, is that Internet Marketing is not really a field of study like those above. It is an art, or a skill, or a chore (depending upon whom you ask) that all business owners need to learn. It blankets every other niche on the planet.

      Internet Marketing gurus, in my experience, don't want the newcomer to be faced with hurdles, proficiencies, and having to learn provable skills. In my opinion, most prefer to sell the dream of instant or easy wealth, no experience necessary, anyone can do it, and fat paychecks of six-figure income just on the horizon.

      Anyone (myself included) who is in Internet Marketing needs to look no further than in the mirror to judge the motives, tactics, and usefulness of the products or services being sold.
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