It's NOT HARD to find great writers!

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It's crazy how many people around here complain it's hard to find good writers, when in fact it really isn't.

I've worked with my writer for a really long time (he's done a few books and a bunch of articles for me) and I've always been very happy with his work. He delivers very high quality content and is super quick.

The one important thing, though is that I always make sure I treat him right.

He's not the cheapest, but I always pay what he asks because I don't have to fix his stuff and I MAKE MONEY from his work, so it doesn't matter.

Just think about this:

You want your writer to put in the effort and time necessary to write well for you, but if he's making $5 an article, he has to do a TON of them each day to make it worthwile. So... he doesn't have time to do them well.

I am sure you know what I am getting at.

Treat your writers well, and they'll write well for you. (that's the NUMBER ONE reason I don't have problems with my writer)
#ebook writing #find #ghostwriting #great #hard #outsourcing #writers
  • Profile picture of the author myob
    I pay my writers extremely well, and they write extremely well.
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    • Originally Posted by myob View Post

      I pay my writers extremely well, and they write extremely well.
      I pay little bonuses whenever my sites get a boost because of a well written article, but other than that I pay a % of my adsense to get them interested in writing not only good SEO but great content to get as many hits as possible.
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Cheap SEO writers are a commodity. You are able to force them to compete with others on price.

    SEO writers are only interested in throwing words on a page, until they have enough words to pick up their paycheck.


    Skilled and talented writers are an investment. If you are smart, you would pay them better than anyone else, to ensure they always remain available to you.

    This type of writer is focused on making sure that your content leads to profits, to ensure that you can afford to pay them again, and you will want to hire them again.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremiah Walsh
      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      Cheap SEO writers are a commodity. You are able to force them to compete with others on price.

      SEO writers are only interested in throwing words on a page, until they have enough words to pick up their paycheck.


      Skilled and talented writers are an investment. If you are smart, you would pay them better than anyone else, to ensure they always remain available to you.

      This type of writer is focused on making sure that your content leads to profits, to ensure that you can afford to pay them again, and you will want to hire them again.
      I couldn't have said it better myself.

      You do get what you pay for.
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      • Profile picture of the author MeTellYou
        You beat me to that quote

        Originally Posted by Jeremiah Walsh View Post

        I couldn't have said it better myself.

        You do get what you pay for.
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        • Profile picture of the author myob
          Originally Posted by Jeremiah Walsh View Post

          I couldn't have said it better myself.
          Albeit, garrulous.
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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by Jeremiah Walsh View Post

        You do get what you pay for.
        More to the point, you do pay for what you get. And if you aren't paying money out of your pocket to the writer, you're just paying something else.
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    • Profile picture of the author MeTellYou
      Very well said

      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

      Cheap SEO writers are a commodity. You are able to force them to compete with others on price.

      SEO writers are only interested in throwing words on a page, until they have enough words to pick up their paycheck.


      Skilled and talented writers are an investment. If you are smart, you would pay them better than anyone else, to ensure they always remain available to you.

      This type of writer is focused on making sure that your content leads to profits, to ensure that you can afford to pay them again, and you will want to hire them again.
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  • Profile picture of the author donhx
    Originally Posted by bpetric View Post


    You want your writer to put in the effort and time necessary to write well for you, but if he's making $5 an article, he has to do a TON of them each day to make it worthwile. So... he doesn't have time to do them well.

    I am sure you know what I am getting at.

    Treat your writers well, and they'll write well for you. (that's the NUMBER ONE reason I don't have problems with my writer)

    The sad truth is that many IMers don't know good writing when they see it. It is just a commodity to many of them, just a means to an end.

    No names of course, but yesteday I visited a writing site I saw advertised. There were having a big sale, less than a penny per word. I laughed out loud when I saw their site--it was so poorly written that I could not understand why anyone would use them. Yet, they have many people endorsing their work, and I guess they keep busy. One thing I know for sure, that quality of writing would not be acceptable in any field other than IM.

    In ghostwriting, biographies start at about 30 cents a word. For technical writing, it's about 40-50 cents per word. However, if you ask for more than a few cents per word in IM, it's considered an outrage.
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    • Profile picture of the author thegreatnapi
      Originally Posted by donhx View Post

      The sad truth is that many IMers don't know good writing when they see it. It is just a commodity to many of them, just a means to an end.

      No names of course, but yesteday I visited a writing site I saw advertised. There were having a big sale, less than a penny per word. I laughed out loud when I saw their site--it was so poorly written that I could not understand why anyone would use them. Yet, they have many people endorsing their work, and I guess they keep busy. One thing I know for sure, that quality of writing would not be acceptable in any field other than IM.

      In ghostwriting, biographies start at about 30 cents a word. For technical writing, it's about 40-50 cents per word. However, if you ask for more than a few cents per word in IM, it's considered an outrage.
      I agree with you. Why would anyone spend time doing a very good research, and writing an article; only to be paid less than what a sixteen year old flipping burgers in fast food restaurant would consider acceptable.
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  • Profile picture of the author myeanne
    I definitely agree! If you want cheap writers expect cheap quality.
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  • Profile picture of the author minchin
    Hi, If you want a good writer you need to pay them. Writing shows their skill but if they are not paid well, they will surely put lesser effort and even try to get more work. Thus will give lesser time to the work assigned for less payment.
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  • Profile picture of the author tedwood
    This is why there needs to be a relationship built between both parties. The writer wants consistent work at a good rate and the marketer wants great quality on a regular basis. To get both these factors it needs to be win/win for both parties. When there isn't a balance between them i.e. lose/win there will be disappointment and dispute. When it's win/win it's a healthy relationship which leads to better business for both sides.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sandra Martinez
      Everyone says they want good writers, but it is not true.

      I was fired once for writing "too" well. My content was being used for attracting buyers to a product and it brought a very good amount of sales. The lil problem was: the product itself did not match the quality, and the result was a bunch of upset people asking for refunds.

      When the variable is only the bank account, quality is only a part of the equation if it is profitable. And truth is, it is not always the case

      for example, sites optimized to force clickouts make more money with bad content

      if you give too much good content for free of the same type you are selling, the people you want as customers will get busy trying the methods out and learning, while those who buy are refund material

      it is a delicate balance
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  • Profile picture of the author ReportKing
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    • Profile picture of the author donhx
      Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

      Absolutely! I have worked it out to a science where I get killer articles for $10 and $15. One of my tactics is to make lowball best offers at Constant Content and then when it's refused, come back with $2 or $3 more from my partner's account.

      The author then believes that that is what the article is worth and they won't do much better, and takes the second offer. It's been working extremely well. Got 4 awesome 500-800 word articles today for $47 doing that!

      Also, another thing tactic I use is to start a bidding war at Craigslist. I put an ad in and offer work at $5 for a 400 word article. I'll get a bunch of offers, but these aren't the people I want. I want better writers. So then I'll put a second ad in, and advertise $15 for a 400 word article.

      I'll then get a bunch of offers for that, and I'll isolate all of the best author's fromt he "highball" ad and show them my responses from the "lowball ad" and say that if they can match those prices I'll hire them. This way, you get better quality writers at lower prices.

      the economy is bad right now and lots of people are hurting for cash. You can capitilize on that. It's like betting on the stock market to lose money. It's a sure thing in today's day and age.

      My father and I have been doing the same thing with real estate. We'll find people who are behind on their mortgage and offer to buy their home at a ridiculously low price. they'll be up against the wall and can't have a foreclosure on their credit, so they'll sell and just be able to pay off the bank so they can walk away clean.

      Then, we'll hire some minimum wage workers to clean up the place good and landscape the yard and raise the price up so it's still considered cheap, but we'll make a killing anyway because we got the house for next to nothing.

      There is a LOT of money to be made in this economy if you know how to do it.

      So far we've flipped 6 houses like that and the least we made on one was $17,000 profit.
      This is a joke, right? You do all these things to mess with writers? I think your time would be better spent developing a relationship with a qualified writer and pay an honest fee for his or her work.

      If you are not joking, I find your comment, "the economy is bad right now and lots of people are hurting for cash. You can capitalize on that" particularly reprehensible. You really screw up your Karma when you kick people when they are down, and that's exactly what you are doing.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by donhx View Post

        This is a joke, right? You do all these things to mess with writers? I think your time would be better spent developing a relationship with a qualified writer and pay an honest fee for his or her work.

        If you are not joking, I find your comment, "the economy is bad right now and lots of people are hurting for cash. You can capitalize on that" particularly reprehensible. You really screw up your Karma when you kick people when they are down, and that exactly what you doing.

        Don: As soon as I get some extra Thanks buttons, I will be back. I owe you two on this thread.
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      • Profile picture of the author notrichyet
        Originally Posted by donhx View Post

        This is a joke, right? You do all these things to mess with writers? I think your time would be better spent developing a relationship with a qualified writer and pay an honest fee for his or her work.

        If you are not joking, I find your comment, "the economy is bad right now and lots of people are hurting for cash. You can capitalize on that" particularly reprehensible. You really screw up your Karma when you kick people when they are down, and that exactly what you doing.
        Amen, it's sad but many will bow down to lower prices. I charge my prices based on what the customer is looking for. I don't always agree with lower prices means lower quality. It all depends on how fast you can type, how much research is involved and how quickly you can put your thought process together. Most of my steady work is for articles promoting amazon products. Honestly, how can you wax poetic on the nuances of a stroller? Yes, it needs to be written in a way that outlines the benefits of the product and written in good english, but I don't think you need to be a published author with a book deal to write one. I honestly don't feel right charging someone $10 for this. That being said, I do charge more for projects that are discussed in detail that might require a more serious approach. Not surprisingly, all of my bigger more expensive projects have come by offering a good price for the simpler articles. Incidentally, I have had many repeat customers after seeing a nice conversion rate on my articles. I guess it's all about perspective.

        Cheers!!
        Mary
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        • Profile picture of the author donhx
          Originally Posted by notrichyet View Post

          Amen, it's sad but many will bow down to lower prices. I charge my prices based on what the customer is looking for. I don't always agree with lower prices means lower quality. It all depends on how fast you can type, how much research is involved and how quickly you can put your thought process together. Most of my steady work is for articles promoting amazon products. Honestly, how can you wax poetic on the nuances of a stroller? Yes, it needs to be written in a way that outlines the benefits of the product and written in good english, but I don't think you need to be a published author with a book deal to write one. I honestly don't feel right charging someone $10 for this. That being said, I do charge more for projects that are discussed in detail that might require a more serious approach. Not surprisingly, all of my bigger more expensive projects have come by offering a good price for the simpler articles. Incidentally, I have had many repeat customers after seeing a nice conversion rate on my articles. I guess it's all about perspective.

          Cheers!!
          Mary
          My view is that people who hire me should get value-for-money. That's the most important thing. Complexity or speed may add to the price, but no matter what, I want my clients to feel they got more than they paid for, and I try to provide that with creative thinking, extra research or something else that will help my client achieve his or her goals.
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          • Profile picture of the author notrichyet
            Originally Posted by donhx View Post

            I want my clients to feel they got more than they paid for, and I try to provide that with creative thinking, extra research or something else that will help my client achieve his or her goals.
            Exactly,and writing an article that converts well at a discounted price gives them that. Sometimes I throw an extra one in for free if time allows. I believe in Karma, and I have to say with this mindset, it's come back to me tenfold. What I've learned is that most of these people are no different than me. I'm no better or worse than any of them and I know that when I need a little extra one of these guys will help me out. I've met some really awesome people doing this. One of my regulars recommended me to his list and it took off from there. It seems once I took my focus off of the money, the money started rolling in. I've also established trust so that when they need something a little more complex than an article on an Amazon product, they are more likely to come back to me to write it. I can't complain because my plate is full at the moment.

            Cheers!!

            Mary
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            • Profile picture of the author donhx
              Originally Posted by notrichyet View Post

              Exactly,and writing an article that converts well at a discounted price gives them that. Sometimes I throw an extra one in for free if time allows. I believe in Karma, and I have to say with this mindset, it's come back to me tenfold. What I've learned is that most of these people are no different than me. I'm no better or worse than any of them and I know that when I need a little extra one of these guys will help me out. I've met some really awesome people doing this. One of my regulars recommended me to his list and it took off from there. It seems once I took my focus off of the money, the money started rolling in. I've also established trust so that when they need something a little more complex than an article on an Amazon product, they are more likely to come back to me to write it. I can't complain because my plate is full at the moment.
              Mary

              I commend you. We both agree that offering clients value-for-money is important. But I have been making my living as a writer for over 25 years, and I know for sure there is no point in competing on price alone. There is always someone cheaper. There are far better ways to offer value than just price-cutting. Learn that about marketing, and then you'll soon be able to change your Forum name.
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              • Profile picture of the author notrichyet
                Originally Posted by donhx View Post

                I commend you. We both agree that offering clients value-for-money is important. But I have been making my living as a writer for over 25 years, and I know for sure there is no point in competing on price alone. There is always someone cheaper. There are far better ways to offer value than just price-cutting. Learn that about marketing, and then you'll soon be able to change your Forum name.
                I agree, and that isn't my only selling point... You're right, there are people out there that will write articles for $1 a piece. I don't understand it but at the same time I try not to judge them either. I don't walk in their shoes so it would be difficult for me to understand how they could do that. Should I charge more than I do? Maybe, but I have happy clients that keep me going and I'm now making a good income. I guess at the end of the day, as long as I'm happy and my customers are happy, what I charge doesn't really matter. I measure my level of success with the satisfaction I feel with how things are going overall. I don't debate my prices, if someone tries to pay less than what I charge (and that has happened), I simply hold my ground because my articles are priced to be affordable for even the little guys. If the big guys get a slice of the pie, then so be it.

                Thank you for the fun debate...

                Cheers!!
                Mary
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                • Profile picture of the author illumina8
                  Originally Posted by notrichyet View Post

                  I agree, and that isn't my only selling point... You're right, there are people out there that will write articles for $1 a piece. I don't understand it but at the same time I try not to judge them either. I don't walk in their shoes so it would be difficult for me to understand how they could do that. Should I charge more than I do? Maybe, but I have happy clients that keep me going and I'm now making a good income. I guess at the end of the day, as long as I'm happy and my customers are happy, what I charge doesn't really matter. I measure my level of success with the satisfaction I feel with how things are going overall. I don't debate my prices, if someone tries to pay less than what I charge (and that has happened), I simply hold my ground because my articles are priced to be affordable for even the little guys. If the big guys get a slice of the pie, then so be it.

                  Thank you for the fun debate...

                  Cheers!!
                  Mary
                  Hi Mary,

                  I really want to hire one of these $1 per article writers. I need 500 x 500 word articles for my blogs and this would relly suit my budget handsomely indeed!

                  Please PM me with details!

                  Regards,

                  Ilumn8
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                  • Profile picture of the author tpw
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                    • Profile picture of the author illumina8
                      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                      You seem to have misunderstood what she said.

                      She said she knows some people write articles for $1 each, but she is not sure why anyone would.

                      Her writing service is in her signature file: Web Content Writer

                      But she does not charge prices as low as what you assumed she said.

                      It looks like her prices start at $5 per article with a minimum purchase order of 5 articles.
                      Thanks no misunderstanding just my warped sense of humour Im afraid..
                      thanks for trying to help out and sorry for any misunderstanding lol
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                    • Profile picture of the author hilaryaustin
                      it's not hard to find but the hardest thing to be considered is the quality of work he or she can provide. Anyone can write articles and simple contents but the main thing is that is there consistency after doing so. That's the thing that is hard to find to someone who is dedicated to his/her work.
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      • Profile picture of the author BloggerDownUnder
        Originally Posted by donhx View Post

        This is a joke, right? You do all these things to mess with writers? I think your time would be better spent developing a relationship with a qualified writer and pay an honest fee for his or her work.

        If you are not joking, I find your comment, "the economy is bad right now and lots of people are hurting for cash. You can capitalize on that" particularly reprehensible. You really screw up your Karma when you kick people when they are down, and that's exactly what you are doing.
        I couldn't agree more with you donhx. I charge what I feel that I am worth - and my clients appreciate the style and tone of my work...that's what I'm good at - I leave them to use my articles to sell their products and services - that's what they're good at...a classical win/win. They pay me from USD 30 per article.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

      the economy is bad right now and lots of people are hurting for cash. You can capitilize on that. It's like betting on the stock market to lose money. It's a sure thing in today's day and age.
      Didn't I just see you write in the "Infraction" thread...

      Besides, karma is a b*tch!
      :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author ReportKing
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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
          Reportking,

          The author then believes that that is what the article is worth and they won't do much better, and takes the second offer.
          Then...

          And I'm hooking writers up with some much needed cash.
          So you're tricking the Author or you're giving them some much needed cash they couldn't possibly get elsewhere?

          The way I see it, I'm helping people who are going to lose their homes from tuining their credit and filing for bankruptcy.
          But also...

          the economy is bad right now and lots of people are hurting for cash. You can capitalize on that.
          That's capitalising for your own benefit as someone else suffers, not a squirrel trying to get a nut.

          You say tom-ay-toe I say tom-ah-to.

          I also think it's bizarre that someone making a minimum 17k per property deal, needs to trick people out of a few bucks on an article.

          I'd rather pay for good quality articles and encourage them to work for me again and again, I'd also like to think they'll write better articles for me as I treat them and pay them as they expect to be paid.

          Knocking a few bucks off when I pay them handsomely won't benefit you in the long run.

          Who cares anyway when we can compare how we pronounce vegetables and fruits.
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          • Profile picture of the author ReportKing
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            • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
              Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

              you have the right to your opinion. And I have the right to ignore it. Isn't this country great?
              Well, believe we live in different countries but the the world is great, so that's nice.

              I also don't care what you do or find it offensive, I was just stating the discrepencies in your statements.

              you have the right to your opinion. And I have the right to ignore it.
              Well, you're not exactly ignoring me but you can now.

              Either way, I wasn't having a go or being rude and I was only coming back because you did to me, despite much stronger views by others. Donhx for one was very against what you said and I didn't see you argue against him.

              Who cares anyway, this is a discussion forum and all we're doing is discussing.

              You have a good evening mate.
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            • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
              Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post


              I love how other people are so quick to call you liar when you say you made a little money. I'm not sure if it''s a human nature thing, that people have to deny the fact that you made some money and they didn't, or what, but it's pretty pathetic (no offense to you personally).
              I have no reason to think, nor did I call you a liar.

              I believe you.

              I.M is one of my businesses and I've been involved in property for over 18 years so I don't actually begrudge or disagree with the property model. It's very popular here now too.

              No offense taken and non intended on my behalf.

              Believe me though, I'm very happy with how I'm doing and have been for a while now.
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            • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
              Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

              So you think that because I made some money on a property deal that means that I should not look for the best pricing on the things I buy anymore? I should start throwing money all over the place because I made some money?
              How about dealing with people honestly?

              You put up an ad for $5 writers, but you say you don't want any of them. So, you've completely wasted their time.

              Then, you put up a second ad for $15 writers, when you're not actually willing to pay them $15, and make them compete against the $5 writers you didn't want to hire to begin with.

              So, you're not negotiating a better price so much as using deception to get a better price.

              And that's the kind of thing karma tends to get you on.
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              • Profile picture of the author ReportKing
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                • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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                  Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

                  Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

                  You put up an ad for $5 writers, but you say you don't want any of them. So, you've completely wasted their time.

                  Then, you put up a second ad for $15 writers, when you're not actually willing to pay them $15, and make them compete against the $5 writers you didn't want to hire to begin with.

                  So, you're not negotiating a better price so much as using deception to get a better price.
                  There is absolutely nothing illegal about it, and I don't even believe it to be ethically wrong.
                  I think you probably meant to say that you don't even believe it to be "morally" wrong? That, at least, is personal opinion (even if yours is very different from mine and evidently from those of several others here). But it's clearly ethically wrong, and your own opinion about its morality can't alter that.
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                • Profile picture of the author TracyNeedham
                  Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

                  There is absolutely nothing illegal about it, and I don't even believe it to be ethically wrong.

                  What's the difference between this business tactic and the government making private contractors compete for bids for government work?

                  They, like myself, are only trying to get the best quality work done for the cheapest possible price. absolutely nothing wrong with it, legally, or ethically.
                  I'm not a lawyer bet I bet it is IS illegal because it's false advertising. You're only pretending you're going to offer those people in the first ad the article writing job for $5. Just like when stores and car dealers advertise an amazing deal that's not really available, just to get people to come in--and they do get in big trouble with the FTC when they're caught doing that.

                  And regardless of whether it's illegal, it IS unethical. Again, you're offering something that's not really available. People spend their time responding to your ad, for jobs you never intend to give them. And even in the second ad, you're pulling a bait-and-switch.

                  BTW the big difference between that and what the government does is that the government is NOT promising a price in their RFPs like the scenario above--they're asking responders to name their price. So everyone is operating blindly as to what the lowest price offer will be and everyone (theoretically) has a chance at landing the gig.

                  In this scenario, NONE of the people responding to the $5 price have a chance of getting the work because you're just using them to jimmy down the others.

                  But then again, you obviously take pleasure in preying on people who are in bad situations. So it's pointless to think you'd understand anything about ethics anyway.
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                  • Profile picture of the author ReportKing
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                    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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                      Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

                      Good luck proving that one in court!

                      Either that or I could say I made a typo
                      And the difficulty of proving it in court and/or your ability to "say you made a typo" make it alright, do they?

                      Legal and ethical and moral, too?

                      Rarely, if ever, has the word "sheesh" sprung more fully-formed to my lips.
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                    • Profile picture of the author TracyNeedham
                      Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

                      Why don't you get a group of writers together and start a class action lawsuit against me?
                      Because you aren't worth my time. Of the two class action lawsuits I helped start, the pharma company has already been charged with paying $300K in fines to the FTC for illegal marketing practices--and we're still waiting for the much bigger anti-monopoly case against them to go to court in Pennsylvania.

                      You're just an eye on a small potato compared to them.
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                    • Profile picture of the author ELK
                      To the OP,
                      Your arrogant flippant remarks are getting hard to tolerate. You aren't making yourself very respectable with your comments. And evidently, you don't care.

                      The motivation behind your entire "business model" is purely self-serving. I have a difficult time imagining you as a well-respected highly-paid internet marketer over the long haul with that approach. TPW describe the element missing in your philosophy of doing business.

                      Hope you see all this from a more modest perspective at some point.
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                  • Profile picture of the author packerfan
                    Everyone seems to be looking at this from the buyer's side, so I'll throw in my $.02 from the other.

                    I run what's starting to become a pretty large writing service. I charge more than most, less than some, and deliver content that's on par with that.

                    What everyone is forgetting is the customer gets the luxury of determining the value of the service you're providing. Some people want $5 articles because they only care about links.

                    Some people want $50 articles because they have established readers for their site and they know those readers demand good content.

                    This list could go on forever. Anyway, to my point...

                    As a service provider I navigate my way through here and work with the customers that fit my business model the best. I could care less that someone else gets $50 per article. That's awesome for them. And I truly wish them nothing but success. The business model I've chosen is highly profitable for me and my customers are happy. Not everyone uses their content the same way. Doesn't make them right or wrong.

                    And writers don't deserve any special treatment. If they specialize in 500 word "Top 7 Reason" articles, guess what, they're gonna get paid about $.01/word. I can write that article in less than 10 minutes, and so can 10,000 others. There are no competitive advantages when it comes to that type of work.

                    Now, shift the discussion to very high quality technical writing, or 5,000 word feature blog posts for a site that gets high traffic, and the game changes. But it only changes because there aren't as many people who can write the content that those customers want.

                    There's nothing special about this business. It's just supply and demand.
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                  • Profile picture of the author StephenGates
                    Good writers are like any other contractor..You have to find workers that are enthusiastic about what they do...

                    when you find that you greatly increase your chances of finding good contractors ! Also you have to pay accordingly !
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                  • Profile picture of the author sylviad
                    This argument about people expecting to get quality for peanuts goes back decades. The problem arises when so many writers are willing to work for peanuts. This lowers the expected price for everyone. Eventually, no one wants to pay the respectable price for quality writing.

                    It often begins with writers who are either desperate for work or just think that writing is an easy way to make money. In some cases, they aren't even that good at it, but by asking so little, they can get jobs.

                    Those are jobs that otherwise would go to credible writers - those who have gone through the training and put in the long hours - writers who ensure that what they produce is top quality every time.

                    So you are right, it's not hard to find writers. They flood the market with their low offers. How much lower than you go than $1 per 500-word article? Fifty cents? A dime? It's ridiculous, but you can be sure that's the way it's headed.

                    I used to get $75 for a 600-word article, $300 for an 800 word-article. In recent years it's dropped to $8, $10, $15.

                    Eventually, people will 'expect' you to just give your work away.

                    Sylvia
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                    • Profile picture of the author tpw
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                      • Profile picture of the author sylviad
                        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                        Sylvia: Dare I suggest that you are marketing your work to the wrong people?
                        I don't do much marketing to get writing jobs. After posting on Elance a few years back, it soon became clear that $15 seemed to be the norm. In fact, one client refused to go any higher than that, saying that she's never paid more for her writers.

                        There were other jobs that paid much higher, of course, but they demanded niche-specific expertise that I do not have.

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                • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
                  Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

                  What's the difference between this business tactic and the government making private contractors compete for bids for government work?
                  That the private contractors know upfront what's going on.

                  When you post an ad asking people to bid on work, they know what's going on. They know you may be looking for the lowest price, or the best deal.

                  When you post an ad offering to pay people a set price for an article, the people expect you're going to pay them that price. After all, it was the price YOU offered.

                  What you're doing is akin to bait and switch.
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                • Profile picture of the author JadeDragon
                  Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

                  There is absolutely nothing illegal about it, and I don't even believe it to be ethically wrong.

                  What's the difference between this business tactic and the government making private contractors compete for bids for government work?

                  They, like myself, are only trying to get the best quality work done for the cheapest possible price. absolutely nothing wrong with it, legally, or ethically.

                  What is wrong is that you are using deceit to take advantage of other people. You spelled it out yourself. I would never do business with you ever because you are a self proclaimed liar and a cheat.
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                • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                  Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

                  There is absolutely nothing illegal about it, and I don't even believe it to be ethically wrong.
                  For what it's worth, I think you're absolutely correct.

                  All the people complaining are overlooking something: there are a great many ways of doing business which are legal and ethical, but still morally wrong.

                  You can, in fact, raise the rent on a family that can't afford to pay it... let them default on several months of that rent... then evict them and demolish their credit rating so they can't get another place to live. And you can do this in the full awareness that once you've visibly done it to one tenant, your other tenants can be gouged for higher rents year after year, and they'll pay no matter how much it hurts because they don't want to be homeless.

                  Within certain boundaries and limits, this is entirely legal and ethical. But it is always morally wrong.
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                • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                  Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

                  There is absolutely nothing illegal about it, and I don't even believe it to be ethically wrong.

                  What's the difference between this business tactic and the government making private contractors compete for bids for government work?

                  They, like myself, are only trying to get the best quality work done for the cheapest possible price. absolutely nothing wrong with it, legally, or ethically.
                  Actually - an experienced writer won't fall for writing something below advertised price whatever tactic you use. If someone gives me a price and then renigs, I don't even answer their messages. If someone can't smell a rat, they probably aren't as good of a writer as they want to think they are.

                  What is hurting the writing industry is the amount of writers that actually consider writing for peanuts. I've checked out many places to list services and find that some who advertise for paid writers actually only pay % of adsense that the article draws so the author will only stand to earn a few bucks over time for their work. As far as 1 and 2 cents a word -- if a writer is worth their salt they will find part-time work doing something else before they will cave to that kind of slavery.

                  Do I consider your methods sharkish? Yes. What is embarrassing is that there are people considering themselves professional writers that don't have brains enough to pass up this kind of offer. Writing isn't just putting words on paper - it's the ability to gather, analyze, and synthesis data to create new concepts and viewpoints. If you aren't spending enough to hire someone able to do this, you are getting s-o-s articles. Point blank.

                  If all the regard you have for your business is to produce s-o-s for your viewers, then you have your methodology down pat.

                  Limitations have a way of coming back and biting you in the butt at one point or another.
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          • Profile picture of the author myob
            It really serves no purpose in emasculating someone publically for sharing their business model. Minimizing costs is essential for being competitive in many markets. The fact that someone can get writers for low cost is not neccessarily a reflection on the person, but rather on the value that the writer projects to their own work.
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            • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
              Originally Posted by myob View Post

              It really serves no purpose in emasculating someone publically for sharing their business model. Minimizing costs is essential for being competitive in many markets. The fact that someone can get writers for low cost is not neccessarily a reflection on the person, but rather on the value that the writer projects to their own work.
              I agree and I don't actually think what he's doing is bad, I also wasn't "emasculating" him in the slightest. I also very much understand the principle of minimising costs, like Reportking and I have agreed though, we just have different ways of doing the same thing.

              If I've caused any offense to ReportKing I apologise, I was enjoying our discussion.

              I appreciate your timely interjection though Myob, I'm sorry you felt I was emasculating him.

              May I just draw your attention to this by ReportKing....

              And I'm hooking writers up with some much needed cash.
              A very good point, times are hard, so when you say...

              but rather on the value that the writer projects to their own work.
              Do you mean the writer is undervaluing themselves and don't believe they're worth more, or do you agree with the chap I was discussing this with, that they are in need of cash?
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              • Profile picture of the author myob
                Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                I appreciate your timely interjection though Myob, I'm sorry you felt I was emasculating him.
                Actually, it was an undirected general comment. Frankly, I see no problem paying someone an agreed amount, no matter how low it may seem to others. The rates that good writers will accept is quite astonishing, though. I have a staff of full time writers and could never afford to have them take on outside assignments at these rates.
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                • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                  Originally Posted by myob View Post

                  Actually, it was an undirected general comment. The rates that good writers will accept is quite astonishing, though. I have a staff of full time writers and could never afford to have them take on outside assignments at these rates.
                  Sorry and yes I do agree with that statement. No offense intended directing my response at you, I wrongly thought it was aimed at me in particular.

                  ReportKing - I think they do that just to make themselves feel better or superior. It's like they have to be the moral voice of reason or something.
                  I'm not sure if this is directed at me but if you can't discuss something in an adult way, I'd suggest not doing so at all. When have I been rude like that? What reason would I have to try and be superior? You clearly have no idea about me if you think that.

                  Listen, people, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, or offend anyone personally, but get off your high horses!
                  From the way some of these people are talking on here, you'd think I rode in with an armed paramilitary force and forced these people to sell their articles and homes at gunpoint! LMAO at this whole thread.
                  LMAO this whole thread? You seem a bit stressed. Chill out mate. No ones attacking you, this is a discussion.

                  If any of that was aimed at me I can assure you it was far worse and said in an act of "superiority" (if that's possible sitting behind a computer) than anything I've said.
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    • Profile picture of the author la dominatrix
      Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

      Absolutely! I have worked it out to a science where I get killer articles for $10 and $15. One of my tactics is to make lowball best offers at Constant Content and then when it's refused, come back with $2 or $3 more from my partner's account.

      The author then believes that that is what the article is worth and they won't do much better, and takes the second offer. It's been working extremely well. Got 4 awesome 500-800 word articles today for $47 doing that!

      Also, another thing tactic I use is to start a bidding war at Craigslist. I put an ad in and offer work at $5 for a 400 word article. I'll get a bunch of offers, but these aren't the people I want. I want better writers. So then I'll put a second ad in, and advertise $15 for a 400 word article.

      I'll then get a bunch of offers for that, and I'll isolate all of the best author's fromt he "highball" ad and show them my responses from the "lowball ad" and say that if they can match those prices I'll hire them. This way, you get better quality writers at lower prices.

      the economy is bad right now and lots of people are hurting for cash. You can capitilize on that. It's like betting on the stock market to lose money. It's a sure thing in today's day and age.

      My father and I have been doing the same thing with real estate. We'll find people who are behind on their mortgage and offer to buy their home at a ridiculously low price. they'll be up against the wall and can't have a foreclosure on their credit, so they'll sell and just be able to pay off the bank so they can walk away clean.

      Then, we'll hire some minimum wage workers to clean up the place good and landscape the yard and raise the price up so it's still considered cheap, but we'll make a killing anyway because we got the house for next to nothing.

      There is a LOT of money to be made in this economy if you know how to do it.

      So far we've flipped 6 houses like that and the least we made on one was $17,000 profit.
      No wonder the majority of good writers' go on to writing their own content for themselves.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

      My father and I have been doing the same thing with real estate. We'll find people who are behind on their mortgage and offer to buy their home at a ridiculously low price. they'll be up against the wall and can't have a foreclosure on their credit, so they'll sell and just be able to pay off the bank so they can walk away clean.

      Then, we'll hire some minimum wage workers to clean up the place good and landscape the yard and raise the price up so it's still considered cheap, but we'll make a killing anyway because we got the house for next to nothing.

      There is a LOT of money to be made in this economy if you know how to do it.

      So far we've flipped 6 houses like that and the least we made on one was $17,000 profit.

      I have a buddy that buys and sells distressed homes in a similar way that you do, with one big difference.

      He doesn't squeeze them to take only the payoff amount on the home.

      Instead, he gives them the payoff amount plus $3,000.

      He wants them to be able to bounce back from the brink of financial catastrophe and still have enough money leaving the deal that they will be able to get into a new house or apartment quickly.

      He could play the way you do and only pay the amount owed to the bank. But my friend has empathy for the people selling their homes to him.

      When someone is forced "by their financial situation" to sell a house for "money owed" rather than "money owed plus equity", they are getting out from under the house, but the sale of the home only allows them to get out from under the financial burden of the house payment.

      My buddy could make $17,000 a deal like you do, but he sees himself as someone in a position to help people get out from under a house, without forcing them to go live with friends or family.

      He allows the people who sell homes to him to bounce back from selling their house with some dignity intact, by giving them enough money in the transaction to get into another house quickly.

      You are two people in the exact same business, helping people to get out from under the burden of a house that is creating a financial burden on its owner.

      The difference is that you squeeze every penny from the deal to make $17,000 per transaction, and he gives people enough money to get back on their feet quickly and instead makes $14,000 per transaction.



      There is nothing wrong with taking big profits to help someone out of a financial mess.

      And, empathy is truly a wonderful trait to possess.
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      • Profile picture of the author ReportKing
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

          Oh yeah...LOL. What's his name, St. Joseph (patron Saint of real estate)?

          I'll bet he adopts Ethiopan orphans in his spare time, too.

          Come on man, get off your high horse.

          You really think that people in today's society are going to give $3,000 profit to someone they don't even know?

          Maybe a very few would (like Bill Gates).

          However, it's not my fault that they got in that predicament. It's not my fault they took an adjustable mortgage rate that is now sky high and maxed out all their credit cards to buy a gas-guzzling, environment-wrecking SUV.

          So I should feel sorry for these people?

          I have a mortgage. I didn't lose my home. So what's their excuse?

          No high horse. Simply an observation.

          Two people... Same industry... Different outlooks...
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        • Profile picture of the author WillDL
          Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

          Oh yeah...LOL. What's his name, St. Joseph (patron Saint of real estate)?

          I'll bet he adopts Ethiopan orphans in his spare time, too.

          Come on man, get off your high horse.

          You really think that people in today's society are going to give $3,000 profit to someone they don't even know?

          Maybe a very few would (like Bill Gates).

          However, it's not my fault that they got in that predicament. It's not my fault they took an adjustable mortgage rate that is now sky high and maxed out all their credit cards to buy a gas-guzzling, environment-wrecking SUV.

          So I should feel sorry for these people?

          I have a mortgage. I didn't lose my home. So what's their excuse?
          I have a couple of friends who do that and they always give a couple thousand above payoff.

          Three Reasons:
          1) It helps people out.
          2) It makes them feel better about themselves
          3) It generates a lot of business. The people whose homes they buy refer people they know in similar situations. They have a smaller gross per deal, but their profit margin increased with the reduced advertising cost. They are also getting way more business than other people who just give payoff.

          Call it "enlightened self interest" of you want to be skeptical or "good karma" if you don't.
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          • Profile picture of the author ReportKing
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    • Profile picture of the author JonWebContent
      Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

      Absolutely! I have worked it out to a science where I get killer articles for $10 and $15. One of my tactics is to make lowball best offers at Constant Content and then when it's refused, come back with $2 or $3 more from my partner's account.

      The author then believes that that is what the article is worth and they won't do much better, and takes the second offer. It's been working extremely well. Got 4 awesome 500-800 word articles today for $47 doing that!

      Also, another thing tactic I use is to start a bidding war at Craigslist. I put an ad in and offer work at $5 for a 400 word article. I'll get a bunch of offers, but these aren't the people I want. I want better writers. So then I'll put a second ad in, and advertise $15 for a 400 word article.

      I'll then get a bunch of offers for that, and I'll isolate all of the best author's fromt he "highball" ad and show them my responses from the "lowball ad" and say that if they can match those prices I'll hire them. This way, you get better quality writers at lower prices.

      the economy is bad right now and lots of people are hurting for cash. You can capitilize on that. It's like betting on the stock market to lose money. It's a sure thing in today's day and age.

      My father and I have been doing the same thing with real estate. We'll find people who are behind on their mortgage and offer to buy their home at a ridiculously low price. they'll be up against the wall and can't have a foreclosure on their credit, so they'll sell and just be able to pay off the bank so they can walk away clean.

      Then, we'll hire some minimum wage workers to clean up the place good and landscape the yard and raise the price up so it's still considered cheap, but we'll make a killing anyway because we got the house for next to nothing.

      There is a LOT of money to be made in this economy if you know how to do it.

      So far we've flipped 6 houses like that and the least we made on one was $17,000 profit.
      There's a lot of scumbags in society, but I'm inclined to believe you're just messing around here. For the sake of mankind, please tell me you're not serious? Please tell me you really aren't this big of a pile of dog sh*t?? Come on, it was a joke, right? Not a funny joke, but a (failed) attempt at humor, correct?

      One way or another, you need to either learn how to tell better jokes or go play Frogger on your busiest local freeway.
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        He's just jerking us around. Although clearly misaligned, it presents a viewpoint diametrically contrary to the OP that really does exist.
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        • Profile picture of the author JonWebContent
          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          He's just jerking us around. Although clearly misaligned, it presents a viewpoint diametrically contrary to the OP that really does exist.
          Oh, believe me, I'm certain that's what he's doing. Only a small portion of society are actually that screwed up in the head. I just didn't think the attempt at humor (if that's what it was) was very good.
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          • Profile picture of the author Sandra Martinez
            Originally Posted by JonWebContent View Post

            Oh, believe me, I'm certain that's what he's doing. Only a small portion of society are actually that screwed up in the head. I just didn't think the attempt at humor (if that's what it was) was very good.
            he actually represents a good proportion of marketers - specially guru material - only that they don´t say it out loud. They do say it in private, and in private seminars: "the only thing that matters is the bank account, anything else is bs"
            I have done upwrites for some.

            And other than that, most are very nice people and very fun to be around. I love a couple dearly.

            Some are actually very enlightened in their way, they KNOW life is just an amusement park, and decided to have fun and play naughty in this lifetime.

            If you look deeper, they have also given up their real dreams some time ago, so nothing really matters anymore.
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    Good writers are expensive. I know one. He wants $200 per page. He is a published major author with a big name.
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    • Profile picture of the author themechanic86
      Originally Posted by seobro View Post

      Good writers are expensive. I know one. He wants $200 per page. He is a published major author with a big name.

      That's Damn Expensive,
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      • Profile picture of the author myob
        Underpaid writers can be far more expensive.
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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
          Originally Posted by myob View Post

          Underpaid writers can be far more expensive.
          Very much so.

          In the long run, one won't have any writers.
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    • Originally Posted by seobro View Post

      Good writers are expensive. I know one. He wants $200 per page. He is a published major author with a big name.
      Be careful hiring someone who has written successfully for the physical world if you are looking for an online writer.

      I had to learn that the two styles of writing are, as you know, drastically different.

      And does he know the difference between writing for a review site and writing to send someone to a squeeze page?

      I would almost guarantee that if he and I (or any other seasoned internet writer for that matter) wrote content for 4 different types of IM results (squeeze page, review site, EZA, sales letter), and neither party could show their name, the internet writer would crush his results.

      And that is not to knock him for being a "real world" publisher, but this ain't the real world.

      IMHO
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  • Profile picture of the author wanna-succeed
    Originally Posted by bpetric View Post

    It's crazy how many people around here complain it's hard to find good writers, when in fact it really isn't.

    It's true, it's as easy as PMing me...
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  • as a designer i have had to compete with ps and as a developer i have to compete with dw....

    meaning people saying well i already did "blah blah" so its pretty much done...

    everyone is looking to save their own money and feed themselves. it is a competitive market in all fields...
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  • Profile picture of the author gearmonkey
    Unfortunately for writers, they are a dime-a-dozen. I put up a CL ad in my local area in Michigan, and literally got 75+ replies in a day and a half. I had to take the Craigslist ad down because I couldn't keep up with all the local writers looking for work.

    Michigan is not doing well for employment, so over-qualified people with college education are looking for work. I write in the ad that I pay $5 for 500 words... and I still got consumed with replies from the CL ad.

    I hired 4 college educated writers in less than 2 hours. I have 60+ emails to other writers saved in my contacts for a backup.

    I agree with the OP, it's easy to find high-quality writers for pennies on a dollar. I almost feel bad paying so low, but I need to profit too.
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    • Profile picture of the author donhx
      Originally Posted by gearmonkey View Post

      Unfortunately for writers, they are a dime-a-dozen. I put up a CL ad in my local area in Michigan, and literally got 75+ replies in a day and a half. I had to take the Craigslist ad down because I couldn't keep up with all the local writers looking for work.

      Michigan is not doing well for employment, so over-qualified people with college education are looking for work. I write in the ad that I pay $5 for 500 words... and I still got consumed with replies from the CL ad.

      I hired 4 college educated writers in less than 2 hours. I have 60+ emails to other writers saved in my contacts for a backup.

      I agree with the OP, it's easy to find high-quality writers for pennies on a dollar. I almost feel bad paying so low, but I need to profit too.
      You gain profit by offering a superior product and marketing it well. You deserve a profit because you are willing to take risk.

      You should not be trying to profit off the back of some poor soul that must stoop to working for 1 cent per word in order to feed his or her children. That's just exploitation, and is Capitalism at its worse.
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      • Profile picture of the author gearmonkey
        Originally Posted by donhx View Post

        You gain profit by offering a superior product and marketing it well. You deserve a profit because you are willing to take risk.

        You should not be trying to profit off the back of some poor soul that must stoop to working for 1 cent per word in order to feed his or her children. That's just exploitation, and is Capitalism at its worse.
        Have you ever shopped at WalMart, Target, or Kmart? If so, your comment proves hypocrisy at its finest.
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        • Profile picture of the author ReportKing
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          • Profile picture of the author gearmonkey
            Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

            From the way some of these people are talking on here, you'd think I rode in with an armed paramilitary force and forced these people to sell their articles and homes at gunpoint! LMAO at this whole thread.
            I don't get it myself. It's like they think we're suppose to be responsible to pay more than you can find it every-where else cheaper.

            Nobody is forcing people to work for this price. They contacted me through their own free will. They knew the terms posted in the CraigsList ad... it's not like we are trying to con anyone.

            Same thing applies with Walmart, people bi*tch about the bad economy and the unemployment rate, then they go to walmart to do their Christmas shopping, buying "Made in India" toys for their children; the same toys that are made by children who will never be able to afford these very same toys...

            If the American people want to make a stand, start with buying American products only. If you refuse to buy import, more USA jobs will open up, then there won't be people looking for writing jobs on CL for a .1 cent a word.

            People need to take responsibility for themselves before condemning those of us trying to make a living in this economy.
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
              Banned
              Originally Posted by gearmonkey View Post

              People need to take responsibility for themselves before condemning those of us trying to make a living in this economy.
              Nice try, but I think you'll find that none of the people disagreeing with you so strongly in this thread is remotely slow to take responsibility for themselves (and in fact quite the opposite, from my knowledge of them).
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              • Profile picture of the author gearmonkey
                Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

                Nice try, but I think you'll find that none of the people disagreeing with you so strongly in this thread is remotely slow to take responsibility for themselves (and in fact quite the opposite, from my knowledge of them).
                It's the hypocrisy and double standards that intrigue me.

                The same people up in arms about this, are likely the same people willing to buy products $3.00 cheaper that are manufactured overseas by slave laborers.
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                • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                  Originally Posted by gearmonkey View Post

                  It's the hypocrisy and double standards that intrigue me.

                  The same people up in arms about this, are likely the same people willing to buy products $3.00 cheaper that are manufactured overseas by slave laborers.
                  Who are you refering to with this statement?

                  Where is the proof of double standards and hypocrisy?

                  I've not been "up in arms" about anything and where the hell do you get the idea I or anyone else in this thread gets articles written by slave labourers?

                  Sorry mate, that is one massive, generalised accusation and not a very good one either.

                  I hope it wasn't directed at me because I've had a good discussion here, I certainly haven't been running around making ludicrous, unfounded statements/accusations with nothing to back it up, like you just have.
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                  • Profile picture of the author gearmonkey
                    Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                    Who are you refering to with this statement?

                    Where is the proof of double standards and hypocrisy?

                    I've not been "up in arms" about anything and where the hell do you get the idea I or anyone else in this thread gets articles written by slave labourers?

                    Sorry mate, that is one massive, generalised accusation and not a very good one either.

                    I hope it wasn't directed at me because I've had a good discussion here, I certainly haven't been running around making ludicrous, unfounded statements/accusations with nothing to back it up, like you just have.
                    I don't recall reading any of your posts nor did I quote your post. Not sure what you're blowing up about. Who are you?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                      Originally Posted by gearmonkey View Post

                      I don't recall reading any of your posts nor did I quote your post. Not sure what you're blowing up about. Who are you?
                      I've been in the thread for a while actually, made quite a few posts, not blowing up about anything.

                      Who are you?

                      Sorry, It's just I've been in the thread a great deal and I assumed you'd been reading it by looking at your post and thought it may have been including me.

                      It wasn't though, so no worries.

                      Have a good evening chap.
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                    • Profile picture of the author garben2011
                      Well, some of you are paying extreme prices it seems for articles.

                      I could not justify paying so much.

                      I started out wanting to pay $10 per article. It sounded reasonable at the time. But the ROI just wasn't there. So, I progressively lowered it and finally at the $5 to $6 per article it is worth outsourcing a 500 to 600 word article.

                      At that price each article or web page should be able to pay for itself within 10 to 12 months. I guess a lot of you are just pulling in a lot more money per article or per web page. Or you are willing to wait more than one year to get your money back. For me, 10 to 12 months is long enough. And I think that is certainly reasonable. I'd rather be able to make the money back within 5 to 6 months so $2.50 to $3.00 per article would be ideal. Well, for me anyway but I don't really want to have someone work for that much.
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                      • Profile picture of the author King Louie
                        There's always a market for cheap articles. Just like there is a market for "made in China" iPhone knock-offs (no offense to my Chinese friends). Many writers don't have a great idea about how to put a fair monetary value on their time and effort.

                        Let's consider the fact that there are many excellent writers living in economically depressed areas of the world, especially in the Philippines. The minimum wage here is more or less $2 per hour. Considering that it takes about an hour to write a well-written and well-researched 500-word article, so $3-4 per article is actually fair value for writers living in the Philippines.

                        I'm not saying that people from rich countries should continue taking advantage of highly qualified but underpaid writers by continuing to pay them peanuts. It would be a great help to the economies of these countries if these writers will get paid more money for their services, because I think that $2 per hour is bordering on the poverty level.
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            • Profile picture of the author Sagar Mehta
              Originally Posted by gearmonkey View Post

              Same thing applies with Walmart, people bi*tch about the bad economy and the unemployment rate, then they go to walmart to do their Christmas shopping, buying "Made in India" toys for their children; the same toys that are made by children who will never be able to afford these very same toys...
              Now that, that little line right there, literally exposes the double standards that are followed the world over. It is, sadly, completely true. And one would be lucky if you don't have to meet the children who do all that hard work - it is a saddening scene.

              As for the perennial topic of whether we should be paying peanuts or plums to ghostwriters, I feel if there's a buyer and a seller who agree on a price, so be it. That's how it is.

              Personally, I may not be able to do what ReportKing does on CL. But that's my opinion and my ethics. And I don't think ethics and morals are absolute.

              If he can do what he is doing, then more power to him. It saves him money, it gets the work done AND the writer gets paid. I see a Win-Win here.

              Sagar
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          • Profile picture of the author wanna-succeed
            Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

            Anything I do to save money is just good business.
            Anyone else getting a serious flashback from the 3rd installment of "Pirates of the Caribbean"?
            It's just like what Becket say - "It's just good business".......LOL!!!
            I'm jetlagged...
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    • Profile picture of the author MeTellYou
      The point actually was that good writers are NOT cheap. you just wait and your college people will disappear faster than you know it (as soon as they find something "better", that is)

      Originally Posted by gearmonkey View Post

      Unfortunately for writers, they are a dime-a-dozen. I put up a CL ad in my local area in Michigan, and literally got 75+ replies in a day and a half. I had to take the Craigslist ad down because I couldn't keep up with all the local writers looking for work.

      Michigan is not doing well for employment, so over-qualified people with college education are looking for work. I write in the ad that I pay $5 for 500 words... and I still got consumed with replies from the CL ad.

      I hired 4 college educated writers in less than 2 hours. I have 60+ emails to other writers saved in my contacts for a backup.

      I agree with the OP, it's easy to find high-quality writers for pennies on a dollar. I almost feel bad paying so low, but I need to profit too.
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      • Profile picture of the author gearmonkey
        Originally Posted by MeTellYou View Post

        The point actually was that good writers are NOT cheap. you just wait and your college people will disappear faster than you know it (as soon as they find something "better", that is)
        I guess it depends on your definition of what good writers are... I get high-quality content that could be published in main stream magazines.

        The research they perform is impeccable, the articles captivate the audience and they produce high-volume sales.

        The neg from most of my writers is they don't understand SEO, they write it for the readers, and less for search engines. But to me, that's not a problem, because they still do quite well in SERPs because my website is an authority (thanks to my readers who link my articles on blogs and forums all over the interweb and help me build backlinks).

        You are also correct that the writers are not long term. I do go through writers about ever 3 to 4 months. But that's the cost of doing business. I have over 60 writers saved away for emergencies and I can find writers immediately if I was to re-publish my CraigsList ad. To me, it's a no brainer. Hire over-qualified writers for pennies and turn more profits. That's been the key to my success, and I see no reason to changing it now as it is working extremely well.
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    • Profile picture of the author garben2011
      Originally Posted by gearmonkey View Post

      I hired 4 college educated writers in less than 2 hours. I have 60+ emails to other writers saved in my contacts for a backup.

      I agree with the OP, it's easy to find high-quality writers for pennies on a dollar. I almost feel bad paying so low, but I need to profit too.
      I think you hit the nail on the head, so to speak. Maybe some people think we are all just cheap and wanting to take advantage of people by paying $5 per article but that is definitely not the case.

      Sure, I could pay someone $10, $20 or more per article but it would be foolish on my part to do so when the article will generate maybe 50 cents per month in income.

      It's this way with anything in life really. I could purchase nearly any service or product for a large amount of money if I wanted to or I could shop around and find an option that makes sense for my budget. To me it is just being financially responsible. I'm not doing this stuff just to pass time. Sure I enjoy the subjects my sites are on but at the end of the day when I spend money on something to help my online endeavors it needs to be a wise investment that actually allows me to make a profit within a reasonable amount of time.

      Paying an amount equal to 10 months worth of the income value seems very reasonable to me.

      I guess the question is for all of you who think these articles should cost much more than $5 is how much would any of you pay for something that will produce about 50 cents per month income? 10x, 20x or even more?
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  • Profile picture of the author stevmark008
    Yes I believe that it is not hard to find a great writer because even myself can write a quality article. You can also find those writers in freelancer sites.
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  • Profile picture of the author anthony2
    I been using a service called Need-An-Article.net for years
    and they have a ton of good writers.
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  • Profile picture of the author hobsdv
    To me its not hard at all, i do all my own writing, why outsource something you can do yourself
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by hobsdv View Post

      To me its not hard at all, i do all my own writing, why outsource something you can do yourself

      To gain more time, by purchasing the time of others.
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  • Profile picture of the author clever7
    Only a real writer can write brilliant articles that will attract many readers and at the same time give substantial messages to the public.

    However, poverty and the numerous abnormal tendencies that control the human mind keep ruining the truth, and generating horrible distortions.


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  • Profile picture of the author TomD2010
    My favorite place to find good writers is from websites that offer article spinning services. The articles produced are absolutely mind boggling; they take the English language to whole other level. Here you find completely new and innovative uses of the language.
    Who except a genius spinner would ever think to change "I hate to tell you" into "I despise to tell you"?
    What about "looking at something" magically transformed into "auditing|investigating|reflect| at something"?
    And what is even more amazing is that for only a $47/month subscription fee, you can get almost an unlimited number of these kinds of articles plopped into your blog everyday!
    That sure beats the hell out of paying a writer a penny a word
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  • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
    Agree with the OP here.

    IM people are always trying to get something for nothing, it shows in what they pay the freelancers that they "hire" and it shows in in the crappy hopeless pushbutton BS products they sell.

    People like that, for the most part, are not the ones doing well.

    The one's who treat people fairly and pay what they are worth are the ones making the money overall.

    Most people though still want to believe in the tooth fairy, and that's sad for them and the slave labor they hire.
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    • Profile picture of the author ReportKing
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      • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
        Thats the stuff that SELLS. It's not the stuff that WORKS if you want to have a business.

        I know that stuff sells, many of the guys selling it are close friends and associates of mine. They are killing it.

        Try to make money yourself with that crap that.

        Do the stuff they DO however, and youll be giving Ferrari's out as launch prizes too.

        I'm not going to comment on any particular product, but they are making seven figures on those launches right now, it's what the market wants.

        Ain't what works, but it's what the market wants, so they will sell it.


        Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

        Seriously? Those crappy "push button" softeares (which mostly suck) are all over Clickbank and some of them are the best sellers!

        Wow, look at junk products like Traffic Anarchy (huge piece of garbage). that sold hundreds, if not thousands of copies!
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  • Profile picture of the author johnbmw
    Originally Posted by bpetric View Post

    It's crazy how many people around here complain it's hard to find good writers, when in fact it really isn't.

    I've worked with my writer for a really long time (he's done a few books and a bunch of articles for me) and I've always been very happy with his work. He delivers very high quality content and is super quick.

    The one important thing, though is that I always make sure I treat him right.

    He's not the cheapest, but I always pay what he asks because I don't have to fix his stuff and I MAKE MONEY from his work, so it doesn't matter.

    Just think about this:

    You want your writer to put in the effort and time necessary to write well for you, but if he's making $5 an article, he has to do a TON of them each day to make it worthwile. So... he doesn't have time to do them well.

    I am sure you know what I am getting at.

    Treat your writers well, and they'll write well for you. (that's the NUMBER ONE reason I don't have problems with my writer)
    its true what they say you get what you pay for
    but most people starting out they dont have extra money to spend on a writer, if fact the lack of money is the reason why they decided to start with this whole internet marketing business.
    until you can afford them unfortunately we have to settle for anyone

    best of luck to you
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner


    Pop corn, get your pop corn right here!
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  • Profile picture of the author gearmonkey
    Originally Posted by Greg Wildermuth View Post

    It's refreshing to hear people say that "you get what you pay for" with writers. I always figure that the clients who are willing to pay for quality work are the ones who are making money, and the ones that want as much as they can get for as little as the newbies who don't want to make the investment. That's been my impression with people I've worked with in the past. As a buyer myself, I've really seen how paying your writer well produces better results.
    My experience has been the opposite. I've only done this for 3 years, but spending less has brought me more profit.

    All my writers are experienced with college education and superb resumes. They earn .01 cent a word and are happy to have the opportunity to work.

    I have 60+ writers on standby in case any one of my current writers move on.
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    • Profile picture of the author ReportKing
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      • Profile picture of the author MeTellYou
        what you're missing out of is having someone reliable. Just wait and the time will show

        Originally Posted by ReportKing View Post

        Absolutely man! There are sooo many starving writers out there... It's like shooting fish in a barrel. LMAO.
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        • Profile picture of the author gearmonkey
          Originally Posted by MeTellYou View Post

          what you're missing out of is having someone reliable. Just wait and the time will show
          This is true to an extent. I've had writers move on in the past... but I have replaced them with little to no effort at all.

          I currently have 60+ writers on standby. If I need more, I can make a simple local CraigsList ad, then I'll get bombarded with inquires.

          The time it takes to replace a writer is much cheaper than paying more to keep them.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by gearmonkey View Post

      My experience has been the opposite. I've only done this for 3 years, but spending less has brought me more profit.

      All my writers are experienced with college education and superb resumes. They earn .01 cent a word and are happy to have the opportunity to work.

      I have 60+ writers on standby in case any one of my current writers move on.
      I've had a great idea for you gearmonkey.

      Seeing as you already have current writers that are well educated with superb resumes and who are very happy to write for peanuts, for articles published in music magazines.... and a legion of no less than 60 article writers, all sitting there, on call, just waiting for you to get them off standby...

      Why not put them to good use and start up a writing service? That way they don't have to sit there on standby...

      Pay them the $5 an article they're happy to get and charge $10-$15 an article to your customers. Think about it, at just $5 profit a day from each of those people, writing just one article a day, you get $300 a day. Imagine if they wrote 3,4 or 5 a day?

      If in a similar case, like you, I had a car and another 60 on standby in the garage, in case the one I drove broke down, I'd start a car rental service.

      Gear monkey, for someone that's doing so well finding such brilliant quality writers, that get published in magazines and don't want any more than 0.01 cents a word, I'd say you're leaving a whole bunch of cash on the table leaving those 60 quality writers on "standby"

      Just a thought.
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  • Profile picture of the author Benjamin Ehinger
    Originally Posted by bpetric View Post

    It's crazy how many people around here complain it's hard to find good writers, when in fact it really isn't.

    I've worked with my writer for a really long time (he's done a few books and a bunch of articles for me) and I've always been very happy with his work. He delivers very high quality content and is super quick.

    The one important thing, though is that I always make sure I treat him right.

    He's not the cheapest, but I always pay what he asks because I don't have to fix his stuff and I MAKE MONEY from his work, so it doesn't matter.

    Just think about this:

    You want your writer to put in the effort and time necessary to write well for you, but if he's making $5 an article, he has to do a TON of them each day to make it worthwile. So... he doesn't have time to do them well.

    I am sure you know what I am getting at.

    Treat your writers well, and they'll write well for you. (that's the NUMBER ONE reason I don't have problems with my writer)
    This is very true and from a writers stand point I find honesty to be the best policy. I am one of those that if you send me a project that I know I cannot do up to my own quality standards, then I will tell you can cannot do it.

    My best clients take great care of me and this is how you build a relationship with your writer.

    Benjamin Ehinger
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
    I think a very important point to remember is that many people that are currently hiring writers are bordering on illiteracy. Sorry but it's true. Being able to order a pizza over the phone, in English, does not guarantee you the status of literary critic.

    Maybe you can get by with what you have, and maybe you assume that you can judge good from bad, but that doesn't mean that your customers agree with your opinion.

    I know many writers, and you would need to be extremely lucky to find any of them with a clear schedule.

    I am not writing this to complain but to let you know, maybe there is more that you do not see, or that there is a reason for those higher fees.
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    • Profile picture of the author gearmonkey
      Originally Posted by Colin Palfrey View Post

      I think a very important point to remember is that many people that are currently hiring writers are bordering on illiteracy. Sorry but it's true. Being able to order a pizza over the phone, in English, does not guarantee you the status of literary critic.

      Maybe you can get by with what you have, and maybe you assume that you can judge good from bad, but that doesn't mean that your customers agree with your opinion.

      I know many writers, and you would need to be extremely lucky to find any of them with a clear schedule.

      I am not writing this to complain but to let you know, maybe there is more that you do not see, or that there is a reason for those higher fees.
      Valid point.

      But the true judge of understanding quality is:

      A) Readers are linking and sourcing back to the articles (helping you build backlinks) - Check

      B) High-volume click-thru ratio - Check

      C) Impeccable sales and profit - Check

      My rule of thumb is if it's good enough for a magazine, it's good enough for me. I'm not publishing a book on quantum physics; I'm publishing website content that captivates readers to the point they link back to it, and to the point where people buy the product after they read it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
        Originally Posted by gearmonkey View Post

        My rule of thumb is if it's good enough for a magazine, it's good enough for me.
        If magazines are publishing your content then I agree it's good.
        Those poor students, they need to meet me. I would put them straight.
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        • Profile picture of the author gearmonkey
          Originally Posted by Colin Palfrey View Post

          If magazines are publishing your content then I agree it's good.
          Those poor students, they need to meet me. I would put them straight.
          My niche is music, and some of my content has caught notice and re-published by one of the most dominate music media firms not only on the internet, but in print.

          One notable story was about Iron Maiden (a metal band) brought more than 7,500 hits in less than an hour. The page is a PR4 from the backlinks.

          Only one writer is a student. All have college degrees. One is a 53 year old man with his Masters. I don't think he's writing for the money, but more for the passion. He's been working with me for almost 2 years.
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          • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
            Originally Posted by gearmonkey View Post

            My niche is music, and some of my content has caught notice and re-published by one of the most dominate music media firms not only on the internet, but in print.

            One notable story was about Iron Maiden (a metal band) brought more than 7,500 hits in less than an hour. The page is a PR4 from the backlinks.

            Only one writer is a student. All have college degrees. One is a 53 year old man with his Masters. I don't think he's writing for the money, but more for the passion. He's been working with me for almost 2 years.
            Yes I know who 'Maiden' are, see my T-shirt :rolleyes:

            You have got people to write for the love of it, and that is a very different thing. You are not seeing a valid cross-section of the talent available in that price range.

            I would suggest that you try and hire people to write about dog biscuits at that rate, and see how good the work is.
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        • Profile picture of the author myob
          Magazine and commercial writing pays far more than doing "link bait" writing. Just for doing a press release for example, 250-500 words can net $700-$1200 or even more. A similar length article in trade journals on assignment brings in several dollars per word plus a high authority byline link to our websites. Don't even get me started on ad copy writing rates. That's why I don't even consider writing for online clients. :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Miranda
    I think it comes down to paying your writers. If you pay them pennies expect so so writing.
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  • Profile picture of the author pheonix44
    To be honest if I though about how much I get paid to do this I definitely would not do it. The main reason I write articles is because it is something I like to do and getting paid for it is icing on the cake. The fact that I get paid little does not bother me because writing articles is a means for me to generate income to invest towards other areas.

    I feel any writer who does not take their work seriously should not be writing at all. I don't care if I was getting paid fifty cents per article I would still put some real work into it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sebastion
    The people that pay me well...I stay awake at night imagining way's to make them famous.
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  • Profile picture of the author artistic
    Well, in my point of view. You can easily get high quality writers on low rates, but through some freelancing sites. Because at freelancing sites there are many people to bid on projects, so usually people offer their services at lower rates to get that project.
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  • Profile picture of the author tombstone
    great post dude.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gail_Curran
    Great writers don't need to copy and paste junk from Ezinearticles the way patrickjoer has done. Dude, if you want to be a spammer for backlinks you could at least be a little subtle about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rose Anderson
    One positive note to this thread. I now know who I'd never buy a WSO from...
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    • Profile picture of the author SommerS
      I can see necessity for good writers, but some people who are new in IM (like me) stepping into magic circle now, =>to hire a great writer we need money, to get that money we need make some sales first, to get those sales we need well written article=>, so how to brake out from that circle:confused:?
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    • Profile picture of the author frankfihn
      Sorry guys but you're all out to lunch here.

      I'm not exactly the biggest fan of capitalism here but it's the system we're in. "Fair value" for any product or service is completely subjective and based on one's personal experience, conditioning, religious background, etc.

      If you're suddenly opposed to the various morals of business, don't dump on the guy who speaks honestly about what millions of other businesses do. We all pay freelancers overseas for one reason, we don't want to pay top dollar if we don't have to. We have all shopped at Walmart, Target, Kmart or other similar stores because we don't think we should pay more. We all wear clothes made by children in sweatshops. I really doubt anyone here pays more money just because. It's neither about ethics or morals. It's about self interest. We're only bothered by the events we see in our personal experience. When that's true, it's about personal ego and not some imaginary code of ethics we adhere to.

      If you're going to be morally and/or ethically against something, then I suggest you be upset with the world at large. There are a lot bigger fish who use a lot worse techniques than the poster from this thread and no one seems to mind. To me that just says you are only against it when it enters into your experience. I really doubt your heart goes out the kid who made the shirt on your back in a sweatshop for pennies on the dollar.

      George Carlin in this priceless saving the planet rant sums it up better than I ever could.

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      • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
        Originally Posted by frankfihn View Post

        "Fair value" for any product or service is completely subjective and based on one's personal experience, conditioning, religious background, etc.
        To be clear, I am not complaining that the price he pays is morally wrong.

        I am saying that the way he gets people to accept that price is morally wrong, because he is lying to them.

        If you tell a person they can have a job in a sweatshop working 18 hours a day in 120 degree heat and they have to pee through a hole in their chair, and that person says "why, that sounds like a fine job, and I will take it" - I have zero problem with that, as long as the person has every right to say "oh wait, this is hell, WTF was I thinking" and quit.

        If they have a legitimate choice, and they choose something that horrifies me, it's still a choice. I can be horrified all I want, but that doesn't make it wrong.
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        • Profile picture of the author frankfihn
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          To be clear, I am not complaining that the price he pays is morally wrong.

          I am saying that the way he gets people to accept that price is morally wrong, because he is lying to them.

          If you tell a person they can have a job in a sweatshop working 18 hours a day in 120 degree heat and they have to pee through a hole in their chair, and that person says "why, that sounds like a fine job, and I will take it" - I have zero problem with that, as long as the person has every right to say "oh wait, this is hell, WTF was I thinking" and quit.

          If they have a legitimate choice, and they choose something that horrifies me, it's still a choice. I can be horrified all I want, but that doesn't make it wrong.
          I understand your point. Let's just say I respectfully disagree.

          I personally don't believe that anyone anywhere works in sweatshop with an extreme desire to do so and I really doubt you believe they do either. The reality is that the perceived lack of choice is what gets them there. We both know that.

          Many of the problem circumstances are created out of a perceived lack of other choices, whether true or not.

          Humans on Earth in general are quick to judge others and make them wrong by their own subjective standards. I just think it's counterproductive in general to the soul.

          Having said that, do I run my business as he does? No. At the same time though, I am aware that those individuals also create their own lack of perceived choice. All realities are co-created. It may be controversial to say but the beaten wife who refuses to leave, refuses to get help, and refuses to call the police creates the reality just as much as the abusive husband. The writer who absolutely needs that $5 is just as much responsible for his reality as the guy offering to pay him $5.

          I'm just certainly no saint on a mountain top and I can't judge others so quickly for their choices. Mind you, my post was directed towards the plethora of replies and not at you specifically. I don't remember who said it specifically and I am too lazy to scroll through and look but one person was complaining about lack of empathy. To me, it's just an extreme irony to talk about lack of empathy for people who work for this individual while at the same time, displaying a lack of empathy for the person they are ridiculing. In my opinion, true empathy is more than a word and needs to be used not just when people agree with you but especially when they don't. That's how you grow. No one person knows everything and so a willingness to understand others in my opinion can only help you grow.

          My point was simple. Humans don't care in the abstract. We're not bothered by sweatshops and all kinds of awful labor standards throughout the world. We're bothered when we're personally inconvenienced by it because we find out a writer is getting haggled down for a few dollars. In my opinion, it's just not the enlightened morals we make it out to be, it's unenlightened ego self interest.

          I am personally morally opposed to narrow unenlightened self interest.

          For those who say it is wrong, I suggest taking action with the corporations at large who do this en masse. Until then, I will see it as nothing more than more ego superiority posing as something more even if they have convinced otherwise. I respectfully agree with your right to disagree with me.
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          • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
            Originally Posted by frankfihn View Post

            I personally don't believe that anyone anywhere works in sweatshop with an extreme desire to do so and I really doubt you believe they do either. The reality is that the perceived lack of choice is what gets them there. We both know that.
            My point was simple. Humans don't care in the abstract. We're not bothered by sweatshops and all kinds of awful labor standards throughout the world.
            Quote one - People don't have a choice about working in sweat shops, then in the second quote you assume none of us, including you, cares?

            How exactly did you come by that opinion?

            That's a pretty large sweeping generalisation of anyone not in the vicinity of sweatshops.

            AKA - Your opinion.

            EDIT -

            All realities are co-created. It may be controversial to say but the beaten wife who refuses to leave, refuses to get help, and refuses to call the police creates the reality just as much as the abusive husband
            So it's nothing to do with fear or control? You actually think the woman is to blame as much as the man even though she's having the s*** kicked out of her?

            Is this some kind of sick joke?

            Lets get back on track, before this dude Frank, drags this thread, into the gutters.
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            • Profile picture of the author frankfihn
              Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

              Quote one - People don't have a choice about working in sweat shops, then in the second quote you assume none of us, including you, cares?

              How exactly did you come by that opinion?

              That's a pretty large sweeping generalisation of anyone not in the vicinity of sweatshops.

              AKA - Your opinion.

              EDIT -

              So it's nothing to do with fear or control? You actually think the woman is to blame as much as the man even though she's having the s*** kicked out of her?

              Is this some kind of sick joke?
              It's my opinion. It's also stated as my opinion.

              You're welcome to correct me by telling me what actions you've taken against sweatshops and places like Walmart et al. I suspect that chances are, you've probably done less than the bickering with the guy in this post. I would hope that you would and you're welcome to tell me otherwise what you're doing about it, especially if you're against writers being paid a low wage. I would encourage anyone to take positive corrective action for the things they are morally opposed. The reality is though, most of it is just metaphorical stone-throwing without actually doing anything to correct it.

              On your next point, of course fear and control has everything to do with it. Who makes you feel your own emotions in your life? If you're not accountable for your own feelings, emotions, and actions, then who is? It's not any different for anyone else.

              I didn't write it to say that the wife deserves it or make any subjective judgments about it. If you're looking for more in it than that, you're looking too deeply. I simply stated that she co-creates that reality through her choices.

              This thread was already in the "gutters" before I showed up. It was a bunch of people ragging one guy because they disagreed with him. I doubt you had a problem with that when everyone agreed with you. I am simply bringing a voice of reason. Childish name calling anyone against an opinion different than yours is well, childish.

              In regards to the, "Is this some kind of sick joke" bit. My opinion is stated as my opinion. Stating your opinion emphatically and in a condescending tone doesn't make it any more or less of an opinion.

              In fact, you've only proven my point about having a need to feel right instead of using that magic thing called "empathy".
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              • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                Originally Posted by frankfihn View Post

                It's my opinion. It's also stated as my opinion.

                You're welcome to correct me by telling me what actions you've taken against sweatshops and places like Walmart et al. I suspect that chances are, you've probably done less than the bickering with the guy in this post. I would hope that you would and you're welcome to tell me otherwise what you're doing about it, especially if you're against writers being paid a low wage. I would encourage anyone to take positive corrective action for the things they are morally opposed. The reality is though, most of it is just metaphorical stone-throwing without actually doing anything to correct it.

                On your next point, of course fear and control has everything to do with it. Who makes you feel your own emotions in your life? If you're not accountable for your own feelings, emotions, and actions, then who is? It's not any different for anyone else.

                I didn't write it to say that the wife deserves it or make any subjective judgments about it. If you're looking for more in it than that, you're looking too deeply. I simply stated that she co-creates that reality through her choices.

                This thread was already in the "gutters" before I showed up. It was a bunch of people ragging one guy because they disagreed with him. I doubt you had a problem with that when everyone agreed with you. I am simply bringing a voice of reason. Childish name calling anyone against an opinion different than yours is well, childish.

                In regards to the, "Is this some kind of sick joke" bit. My opinion is stated as my opinion. Stating your opinion emphatically and in a condescending tone doesn't make it any more or less of an opinion.

                In fact, you've only proven my point about having a need to feel right instead of using that magic thing called "empathy".
                Oh no.

                I'd like you to explain how a beaten woman, is as much to blame as the man as you so beautifully said here...

                All realities are co-created. It may be controversial to say but the beaten wife who refuses to leave, refuses to get help, and refuses to call the police creates the reality just as much as the abusive husband
                This thread was already in the "gutters" before I showed up.
                So why show up?

                Lovely as it is for you to charge in to rescue him, he and I spoke about it 24 hours ago. You however have waded in to put your opinion on something you think is "already" in the gutter.

                Perhaps you need to re-look at the thread and find my last responses to reportking, and also find the childish namecalling you accuse me of.

                Better still, look at all the other people having a go at him and look at how well mannered I was, instead of coming here and creating a fight with me.

                We were having a nice discussion, yesterday.

                Now, lets move on...You said this...

                I didn't write it to say that the wife deserves it or make any subjective judgments about it. If you're looking for more in it than that, you're looking too deeply.
                Sounds different to this...

                but the beaten wife who refuses to leave, refuses to get help, and refuses to call the police creates the reality just as much as the abusive husband
                And then this...

                In fact, you've only proven my point about having a need to feel right instead of using that magic thing called "empathy".
                Clearly makes you right.

                I bow to you Frank as a man, I wish I was like you and I'm sure many others do to. :rolleyes:

                Hows that for empathy Frank?

                You have your views, therefore, they are right. :rolleyes:
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                • Profile picture of the author Jenny Willapana
                  Ok, my 2 cents here:

                  Those of us who have outsourced our content know that you get what you pay for at the end of the day.

                  Oh, and those $1 to $5 article writers that newbies seem to love will...disappear, steal copy, take your money and run, spin garbage, and so on and so forth.

                  Also, nobody is getting a bargain by paying for cheap content. 9.5/10 you will have to re-write the content, if you try to skimp on cost. That is if you want a decent website that actually converts.

                  I am constantly shocked at some of the absolute garbage content I get back from even reputable outsourcing sites, who shall remain nameless.

                  I outsource content for some of my sites and I always pay native English speakers a good wage or write it myself -- if I'm not slammed with content work myself.

                  There is no substitute for quality.



                  Jenny
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            • Profile picture of the author Sandra Martinez
              Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

              So it's nothing to do with fear or control? You actually think the woman is to blame as much as the man even though she's having the s*** kicked out of her?

              Is this some kind of sick joke?

              Lets get back on track, before this dude Frank, drags this thread, into the gutters.
              A lil bit off track, yes... but some of the people I work with in my "niche" have been abused one way or the other. And I tell them exactly the same to help them stand on their feet:

              as an adult, the first time someone abuses you in any form is the other ´s fault, the second is yours.

              when I came back to the game after being very comfortable for a couple of years and tried to rebuild the service business I had in the old days, I found a couple of guys like our OP here...

              one for the more tech side, and one for writing. They did get away with it, ONE time. No more.

              It is a matter of self respect.

              but it is true that there are a lot of people that because can write, call themselves writers. And the writing is good enough for article marketing and "authority" sites (go figure).

              for those who write, or provide service: there are a couple of other tricks around. One is to offer to pay coins on the promise of recurring business. The other is to create an auction for service. Offer the gig to several people and get the one who brings the best product at the best price, the others have to eat the job.
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          • Profile picture of the author tpw
            Originally Posted by frankfihn View Post

            Mind you, my post was directed towards the plethora of replies and not at you specifically. I don't remember who said it specifically and I am too lazy to scroll through and look but one person was complaining about lack of empathy.

            To me, it's just an extreme irony to talk about lack of empathy for people who work for this individual while at the same time, displaying a lack of empathy for the person they are ridiculing.

            Good sir.

            I was the person who mentioned "empathy". And I did not even say the other party had a "lack of empathy". I simply suggested that my buddy shows empathy to the people who sell him their homes.

            I beg you to show me where in this thread I have "ridiculed" the other party.

            I know you said you are too lazy to scroll through to see, so I will tell you.

            You will not find a single post, written by my hand, that ridiculed the other party.

            Like I mentioned before, you said you are too lazy to scroll, but I would certainly appreciate it if you took the time to show us where anyone was actually ridiculing ReportKing.

            I did go back through the thread twice. It struck me that the first ridicule in the thread came from ReportKing, and Richard responded to it with a couple snipes.

            Prior to your arrival, this had simply been a discussion conducted by people whom disagree with one another. And you don't even have your facts straight, so I am not sure we should judge your input credible.
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            • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
              Addressed to: whoever made the remarks this reply refers to.

              First, a vocabulary lesson.

              Empathy-
              the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

              Second, I have no desire to experience the OP's glorious 'feeling' of pride, satisfaction, and smugness at engaging in the behavior of a bait and switch, sleazy con artist. So you're damn skippy I won't try to 'empathize' with him.

              Third, it's probably not your fault you think that an abused woman is a 'co-creator' of the situation or whatever other psychobabble BS you were spouting off about on that subject, it's the crap that psuedo-intellectual mental health professionals have been feeding domestic abuse victims and society for years.
              "What luck for rulers that men do not think."


              Your sheeople views will limit any vision you may have towards true success or enlightenment. I wish you luck, Sir.

              -DanielleS
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

          To be clear, I am not complaining that the price he pays is morally wrong.

          I am saying that the way he gets people to accept that price is morally wrong, because he is lying to them.

          If you tell a person they can have a job in a sweatshop working 18 hours a day in 120 degree heat and they have to pee through a hole in their chair, and that person says "why, that sounds like a fine job, and I will take it" - I have zero problem with that, as long as the person has every right to say "oh wait, this is hell, WTF was I thinking" and quit.

          If they have a legitimate choice, and they choose something that horrifies me, it's still a choice. I can be horrified all I want, but that doesn't make it wrong.

          Caliban summarized this beautifully.

          People are not up in arms because the guy is paying low wages. They are up in arms because he offers them a job, then pulls a bait-and-switch, which is illegal in most jurisdictions.

          He is advertising jobs at $15 an article to get people with more skills to apply for the job, then he tells them he has these other people writing for $5 an article and tells them that if they want the job, then they need to agree to take a wage lower than what he advertised.

          So what if he is paying them $10 an article. He should just tell them that he is paying writers $10 an article and be done with it.

          Like Caliban said, if he offers them $2 an article and all the dog turds they can eat, to sweeten the offer, and they are willing to accept the job, then there is nothing wrong with him doing that.

          We all understand about keeping our costs of doing business low. That is also not the problem people are having with this fellow. People are not complaining about his desire to keep his costs low; they are complaining about how he feels perfectly justified to use deceit to find better qualified contractors.

          It is the fact that he advertises one wage, with no intention of ever paying the advertised wage -- that is the problem. That is lying, which is not illegal; and it is false advertising, which is illegal.

          It demonstrates a lack of morals, a lack of empathy, and a willingness to bend or break the law for his own gain.
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  • Profile picture of the author DeborahDera
    You're talking about one writer that you now have a long-term relationship with. But how many writers did you go through before you found him?

    It is NOT easy to find a good writer but I do agree - once you find him (or her) you should treat him right so that he'll stick around.

    Originally Posted by bpetric View Post

    It's crazy how many people around here complain it's hard to find good writers, when in fact it really isn't.

    I've worked with my writer for a really long time (he's done a few books and a bunch of articles for me) and I've always been very happy with his work. He delivers very high quality content and is super quick.

    The one important thing, though is that I always make sure I treat him right.

    He's not the cheapest, but I always pay what he asks because I don't have to fix his stuff and I MAKE MONEY from his work, so it doesn't matter.

    Just think about this:

    You want your writer to put in the effort and time necessary to write well for you, but if he's making $5 an article, he has to do a TON of them each day to make it worthwile. So... he doesn't have time to do them well.

    I am sure you know what I am getting at.

    Treat your writers well, and they'll write well for you. (that's the NUMBER ONE reason I don't have problems with my writer)
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarah Harvey
    @ Reportking

    I would almost laugh at your attitude, but I think it is better if I warned you that in this forum, it's all 'sunshine and bunnies' if you get what I mean.

    People here generally stick together like a flock of sheep and go against anything that is being said in a negative way. They want to believe that no one takes advantage.

    Problem is at some point, a person takes advantage of someone else's services. The people on this forum included.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zabrina
    I've been eating popcorn since page one. I'll keep my opinions to myself, but I suspect those who know me here will know exactly what I think right now.

    I just find it amusing that people justify their actions with an "eye for an eye" method. "I promise writers a job I don't give them... but you shop at Wal-Mart, so you can't criticize me!"

    An eye for an eye and the whole world's cheap and shoddy. :p

    Furthermore, it's pretty silly to assume people criticizing this kind of tactic actually do shop at Wal-Mart.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by Zabrina View Post

      I've been eating popcorn since page one. I'll keep my opinions to myself, but I suspect those who know me here will know exactly what I think right now.

      I just find it amusing that people justify their actions with an "eye for an eye" method. "I promise writers a job I don't give them... but you shop at Wal-Mart, so you can't criticize me!"

      An eye for an eye and the whole world's cheap and shoddy. :p

      Furthermore, it's pretty silly to assume people criticizing this kind of tactic actually do shop at Wal-Mart.
      Zabrina!

      I've not seen you here for ages. I hope you're well.

      I'm pretty certain I do actually know where you stand on this, just in case I got it wrong though...

      We don't have Walmart here and I grow my own veg :p
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      • Profile picture of the author Zabrina
        Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

        Zabrina!

        I've not seen you here for ages. I hope you're well.

        I'm pretty certain I do actually know where you stand on this, just in case I got it wrong though...

        We don't have Walmart here and I grow my own veg :p
        I'm quite well, thank you! Let's chat via PM. The on-topic bit -- if I weren't in a dorm... I visit the farmer's market, though.
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  • Profile picture of the author glennda
    Hi everyone,

    I do not know if this is the right place to ask, but other than The Warrior Forum "warriors want to hire you" and elance.com and freelance.com are there any other sites you guys would recommend?

    Thank you
    Brenda
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    • Profile picture of the author myob
      Originally Posted by glennda View Post

      Hi everyone,

      I do not know if this is the right place to ask, but other than The Warrior Forum "warriors want to hire you" and elance.com and freelance.com are there any other sites you guys would recommend?

      Thank you
      Brenda
      Here you go: Writer's Market
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  • Profile picture of the author Fun to Write
    I think the OP is making the point that the you often get the best writers and writing done when you take an approach that you want to build a relationship.

    Working relationships online can be valuable, and those writer/client relationships that involve mutual respect will be much more beneficial to both parties in the long run.

    Some people view online writers as a "dime a dozen" commodity.

    Others see them as talented people who are offering a valuable service.

    All I know is that the clients I write for are looking for great quality and value, and they are courteous towards me and very appreciative of the work I produce.

    As for what one asks to be paid or pays for quality writing is all subjective. I do feel that reliable quality writing is hard to come by for many.
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  • Profile picture of the author ProfWriter
    I am a professional freelance writer (hence the handle) and I have really struggled to get clients to understand that good writing, writing that will make money, is hard to write. It takes an extraordinary amount of time, creativity and just hard thinking. It requires a good education and years of hard work. I went to school for writing. I practice my skill every single day. As a result, I am excellent at what I do. It's difficult not to feel immense frustration at the cheapness of so many online marketers. Many talented writers are taken advantage of every day because they need money. I know this is true of many industries, but that doesn't make it right.

    Quality costs money. That's true for clothing, furniture, phone service, cars, school, and anything else worthwhile. I hope some day more people realize what a valuable product solid writing really is.

    In the meantime, I will continue making my clients far more money than they pay me, and I'll do it happily, so long as they pay me a fair, living wage.
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  • Profile picture of the author AStateOfLogic
    Finding good writers is only hard if you do not want to pay them good. You cannot expect high quality work if you are not giving the writer a reason to write high quality.
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  • Profile picture of the author indiatext
    i'm myself a writer and I really liked this tread...it makes a lot of sense...atleast for me it does that...
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    • Profile picture of the author jane1388e
      I found this thread being discussed in another forum I was reading, so I thought I'd add my two cents in here.

      Anyway, I'm also to blame for being on the lookout for cheap, cheap, articles. Yea, I'd love to be able to pay authors more for their work, but the hard truth of it is, I just don't make enough money right now. I turn nearly all my profits over to writers, just trying to build up "my empire" as I call it. I use that term lightly however, because sadly, empire is a gross overstatement lol.

      I also rarely pay more than $15 full rights on articles (most of the time I spend even $10 or less), but I don't try to low ball anyone by making back-room deals and offering less... I just take the extra time to find the cheaper articles.

      I agree, Constant-Content can be a great place to find perfectly polished articles, but unfortunately, that extra coat of polish often comes at a steep price. Yes, I still search through there, and on occasion find a great bargain, which I snap up right away, but it's not where I find most of my work.

      I have though, a few times in the past posted up requests for specific articles there, and most time, even with the cheap full rights cost that I'm offering, people do write up and submit articles to me. I have no concern over articles bought from Constant-Content, because I know they will be perfectly written, and never posted anywhere else.

      Other than that, I also search for gems on other sites like DailyArticle and ArticleSale ... with these sites however, it takes a little extra work too, but the prices are much more in my range for full rights to the articles. DailyArticle is a little safer I find, because it seems that they at least check that the content is original even if the spelling and grammar isn't always perfect.

      ArticleSale, however, seems to post up anything, no matter what it is, or how badly it is written, so I am very careful before buying anything through them. I read the short excerpt, to make sure they have decent English skills, and I always copy a line or two from the excerpt into Google, to make sure it's original - which, isn't always the case. Sometimes though, there's great articles for stupidly-low prices, that don't show up anywhere else on the Internet.

      So, my point is, there are many ways to get decent quality writing at bargain basement prices, if you are willing to look for the good stuff. I already feel bad enough giving so little for the author's hard work, but I feel, it's a little less swindle-ish, if I don't have to cheat and lie, just to make a cheap purchase. I can at least sleep at night if I'm paying what the author's originally thought their articles were worth.

      Now, if I could just get past this pesky conscience of mine... and lose a few scruples, I'd probably save a lot of time and money, and come out more ahead in the long run. But that's just something I can't quite bring myself to do yet...
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  • Profile picture of the author BiancaRaven
    Also, another thing tactic I use is to start a bidding war at Craigslist. I put an ad in and offer work at $5 for a 400 word article. I'll get a bunch of offers, but these aren't the people I want. I want better writers. So then I'll put a second ad in, and advertise $15 for a 400 word article.

    I'll then get a bunch of offers for that, and I'll isolate all of the best author's fromt he "highball" ad and show them my responses from the "lowball ad" and say that if they can match those prices I'll hire them. This way, you get better quality writers at lower prices.

    the economy is bad right now and lots of people are hurting for cash. You can capitilize on that. It's like betting on the stock market to lose money. It's a sure thing in today's day and age.
    I'll tell you what - I'll offer you your content written at the lowest prices available. You'll get your content keyword stuffed and you'll get your word count quota met in the fastest possible time I can possibly type. I won't stop to edit it and I won't stop to spell-check or even English-check it. Not at those rates.

    However, if you're willing to pay me a fair amount for my time, effort, creativity and thoughtfulness, I'll be sure to personally write quality content that you'll see results for. You'll even see positive results and increased profits, as I'm one of those rare writers who makes a huge effort to keep on top of what converts well for those clients who stick with me for the long term - and then provide it for them time and again.

    No, I don't discount my prices for any smart-@$$ thinking they'll tell me someone else can do the same thing for less money. Go right ahead and accept that writer's work if that's what gets your jollies off for you. If you offer me less than what I could earn flipping burgers at McDonalds, then I don't need you just as much as you don't need the barely English cr@p you can get at 0.01 cent per word.

    I guess the old adage really IS true - you get what you pay for. :p

    Good luck with your business model. Karma really can be a bitch, when you get right down to it.
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