How The Clueless Throw Away Their Money

by Harlan
570 replies
You are getting screwed.

Internet marketing died but the gurus didn't tell you that.

They've inflated a corpse and put in in the passengers seat so they can ride in the fast lane while everyone else is stuck in traffic.

From time to time they wave its hand to convince you it's alive.

Let me prove it.

First, most of the Internet marketing gurus are clueless. A year ago, a number of them killed their Facebook and Twitter accounts as a waste of time and that Social Media will never make money.

Now, they are back on Social Media and the only money coming in is thru Social Media.

Let's look at launches:

Launches worked like gang-busters in their day. And they still work to a degree.
It reminds me of all the people who would go to see the "Rocky Horror Show" so many times they knew all the words.

Guys - we've seen it before.

Here's the pattern: free but worthless content to get people to go WOW. Then everyone and his brother keeps mailing their list offering the coolest bonuses. Then there's the early bird list. Then comes the warnings that it's going to close and...

Surprise surprise as Gomer Pyle used to say. It reopens. The people buy it.
The product doesn't live up to the hype. Your complaints go to a help desk and you are out the money.

Here's the best part: two weeks later, the guru GIVES away the product you just bought as a bonus for the latest launch.

Seriously - we are a bunch of dumb ass suckers to take this crap.

None of these guys remotely has a "real business." They are just in the Internet biz-op business and use their little friends for some list incest.

The only ones getting rich are THEM.

And then it comes to content.

They are teaching the same model that they learned in 2004.

None of the stuff they are teaching works today.

If you really know internet marketing, most of their stuff went out with the first Google Slap. But they keep teaching it as if it's the only dance in town.

And this is just the beginning.

It gets a lot worse.

Let's look at Clickbank.

Just about every week a new Internet Marketing program launches on Clickbank. It promises to make you a million dollars in the next 6 weeks without doing anything.

Then you go through upsell hell for all the things you really NEED.

These sales letters are full of lies. Clickbank knows it and doesn't do anything about it.
Like the "16 year old girl" product that came out this year. It had FRAUD written in capital letters written all over the page.

I PERSONALLY spoke to a Vice President of Clickbank and complained about the Fraud and they played dumb. I said "Dude, it's your top selling product right now. Stop playing dumb."

I guess he couldn't help it. It was paying his bonus or something.

And yet, the desperate buy that crap knowing in their hearts that it's all bull and doesn't work anyway.

But hope springs eternal right. Maybe this could work.

So the gurus and demi-gurus push more products that don't work.

And at the end of the road stands Google with its push broom batting all these dreams into the gutter.

And if you buy now it's just $1997.

Or you can buy a better book on Amazon for $19.97 that teaches you more.

Folks.

The gurus only move ahead by looking BACKWARDS.

Great way to make money off someone else. Bad way to run a business.

None of these guys is looking to the future.

The Internet changes daily and if you keep following what used to work, you're only gonna get your butt kicked.
#money #throw
  • Profile picture of the author Harlan
    Originally Posted by Katie Byrd View Post

    You mean success requires independent thinking? :-)

    Awesome post and a fantastic way to start my day. The whole IM guru scene has always reminded me of Amway in the late '80s and early '90s. So glad to see it "exposed" this way by someone so credible. Thanks Harlan!
    Other people have said it before me. But independent thinking is forbidden.
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  • Profile picture of the author wkathome
    Wow, so true. My in box is full of pre launch information, never before seen and on and on. Thank god for a delete button.
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  • Profile picture of the author profitsforall
    So yet another thing has died, apparently it's the whole of iinternet marketing this time.

    Personally I'm tired of every little rant proclaiming the death of [INSERT THING HERE].

    From what you are saying it seems that marketing is alive and well, it appears to be the product quality you have issue with.

    If marketing was truly dead, the sale of these products would be nonexistant as nobody would be buying.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by profitsforall View Post

      So yet another thing has died, apparently it's the whole of iinternet marketing this time.

      Personally I'm tired of every little rant proclaiming the death of [INSERT THING HERE].

      From what you are saying it seems that marketing is alive and well, it appears to be the product quality you have issue with.

      If marketing was truly dead, the sale of these products would be nonexistant as nobody would be buying.
      You really do have a good point.

      So if you want to sell something that doesn't work, the market is wide open.

      But if you're one of the sad folks who really wants to make a full time income via the Internet, following the out of date stuff isn't going to work.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Harlan,
        following the out of date stuff isn't going to work.
        You mean, like direct response websites, or plain text via email?


        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
        Simple solution. Teach people to be more discerning and be more discerning in what you recommend.

        Jim over at Niche Rockets sent out an exemplary example of this today.

        You've probably all heard about the recent big ticket software system launch. Apparently Jim's been doing this same thing for years based on a book by a programmer written way back when.

        Here's the kicker. In his very long email, Jim actively tries to disqualify people from buying using his "entrepreneurial software fit test".

        A couple of samples:

        Once you believe the software is
        done, would you be ready to celebrate --
        or would you accept the fact that you'll
        likely have to spend another 100+ hours
        in fixing software bugs that creep up
        when other people start using it?
        Are you good with people and able to
        manage someone through a project, taking
        a leadership role?

        If you have trouble guiding a person,
        then this may not be right for you.

        And yes, a programmer definitely needs
        to be guided every step along the way and
        shown the way in every step of the process
        so your money is not burned up.

        To say that you have to micro-manage
        may be an understatement.
        I'm actually not interested in the system but if it's full of that level of sensible writing I might just get it as refreshment for a jaded mind.


        Martin
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  • Profile picture of the author theory expert
    Banned
    Sad for the consumer, but, for the seller.....what color ferrari do I get this time?
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  • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
    Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

    Now, they are back on Social Media and the only money coming in is thru Social Media.
    From your signature:
    It's Raining Money On Facebook! http://48hourmoneysecret.com


    Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

    Just about every week a new Internet Marketing program launches on Clickbank. It promises to make you a million dollars in the next 6 weeks without doing anything.
    And again from your signature:
    Do NO work and make money online http://beachmillions.com

    Guess the "gurus" aren't the only ones selling the dream.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Okay. This one did it.

      Harlan, you're intelligent and literate enough to make these points without playing the "gurus are evil" game. If you'd like to make your points without conspiracy theories, group-bashing, or self-indulgent rhetoric, feel free.

      I'm getting real close to just deleting any thread that starts out negative and doesn't offer some sort of positive alternative solution.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Harlan
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Okay. This one did it.

        Harlan, you're intelligent and literate enough to make these points without playing the "gurus are evil" game. If you'd like to make your points without conspiracy theories, group-bashing, or self-indulgent rhetoric, feel free.

        I'm getting real close to just deleting any thread that starts out negative and doesn't offer some sort of positive alternative solution.


        Paul
        Paul, good copy sets the stage before offering a solution.

        I'm setting the stage.

        I did that with my previous posts that you locked.

        The solution is so new to the Warrior Forum that there isn't even a single post on it.

        I venture to say not a single person on this forum has heard of the solution.
        Signature

        Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
        Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
        http://overnight-copy.com
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        • Profile picture of the author Gary King
          Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

          Paul, good copy sets the stage before offering a solution.

          I'm setting the stage.

          I did that with my previous posts that you locked.

          The solution is so new to the Warrior Forum that there isn't even a single post on it.

          I venture to say not a single person on this forum has heard of the solution.

          So I guess I'm confused...

          You say you're "setting the stage" - sounds like a pre-launch to me.

          Why not just say what's on your mind instead of building hype about it?
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          • Profile picture of the author Harlan
            Originally Posted by Gary King View Post

            So I guess I'm confused...

            You say you're "setting the stage" - sounds like a pre-launch to me.

            Why not just say what's on your mind instead of building hype about it?
            Because if I posted a one word answer - and there is a one word answer - you would go huh? and think I'm on drugs.

            Giving you background to understand a concept is not pre-launch hype.

            My doctorate is in Education.
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            Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
            Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
            http://overnight-copy.com
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            • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              Giving you background to understand a concept is not pre-launch hype.

              My doctorate is in Education.
              Well, excuse me for being an unsophisticated rube, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.
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              Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

              Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Harlan,
              Giving you background to understand a concept is not pre-launch hype.

              My doctorate is in Education.
              Propaganda is not education. The opening post in this thread was pure propaganda. Sweeping generalizations, designed to set yourself up as the hero to the victimized masses.

              I can almost understand this from people with no experience and little knowledge of the business. Not from you. You're too bright to not know exactly what you're doing with that kind of rhetoric.


              Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              My doctorate is in Education.
              Harlan,

              You must have gone to a faculty that forgot to teach you one of the worst sins of a teacher is patronizing the students.


              Martin
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            • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              My doctorate is in Education.
              I have to admire your resilience.

              When you come here and stir up the hornets nest - you must know what response you're going to get.

              You seem to respond as though you're treating the comments seriously (and even respond in what appears an emotional way when criticised sometimes) so you're definitely feeding into the response you get.

              But I can't help feeling like you're coming along to poke the sleeping dog with a stick and wondering why it tries to bite you.

              You're an NLPer, a copywriter, your doctorate is in education - yet you post like you think insulting people in this community will wash right past and appear like a lofty theoretical debate about "how the others are doing it wrong".

              Since this seems to be a trend - I'm sure you must just be playing around, probably sat having a beer with your buddies gathered around a big screen tv saying "watch what they do when I hit them like this!" and having a good laugh at the responses.

              I really want to take you seriously as I'm sure you must have a really interesting things to say, but when you play games like this and 'set the stage' rather than just get on with the conversation is makes it awefully hard to wait long enough to get down to it.

              Let alone having to plough through all the responses that happen along the way.

              Andy
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              nothing to see here.

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        • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
          Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

          I'm setting the stage.
          Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

          The solution is so new to the Warrior Forum that there isn't even a single post on it.

          I venture to say not a single person on this forum has heard of the solution.
          So, you're using this thread to pre-sell us on YOUR solution? All the other "gurus" are peddling waste matter, but you're the one with the gold?

          LOL.
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          • Profile picture of the author Harlan
            Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

            So, you're using this thread to pre-sell us on YOUR solution? All the other "gurus" are peddling waste matter, but you're the one with the gold?

            LOL.
            It's an almost Pavlovian response.

            You must be selling something.

            And other gurus ARE peddling waste matter.

            But the sad saps keep buying.

            Somewhere, Dan Kennedy is smiling.
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            Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
            Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
            http://overnight-copy.com
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            • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              And other gurus ARE peddling waste matter.
              So, you count yourself among the gurus. That would be the group of people of whom you said:

              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              None of these guys remotely has a "real business." They are just in the Internet biz-op business and use their little friends for some list incest.
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              None of the stuff they are teaching works today.
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              None of these guys is looking to the future.
              And, you've included yourself in this group. Interesting.
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              Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

              Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
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            • Profile picture of the author jminkler
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              It's an almost Pavlovian response.

              You must be selling something.

              And other gurus ARE peddling waste matter.

              But the sad saps keep buying.

              Somewhere, Dan Kennedy is smiling.
              I think what's even sadder is the amount of people STARTING A BUSINESS **ONLINE** without knowing ANYTHING about programming or websites, or search engines, or anything else.

              Anyone else watch "Kitchen Nightmares" or "Kitchen: Impossible" - "did you have experience in owning a restaurant?", "no, we thought we could do this" reuslt?? ... canned food, molding freezers, websites with security holes chewing up shared hosting to the point where they are told by a "guru" they need a "cloud" solution ..

              Do you people realize how much money you would save if you hired the right programmer to build you a WEBSITE (not WP) in the first place? Do you realize how much you would save if you picked up some books? This stuff is scary, how many of you have hundreds of lists of email addresses, all waiting to be hacked and stolen? Credit card #'s? Addresses, phone numbers? Only about 2% of the people on this site have even considered security to be a priority..

              Worse? All the struggling with wordpress, trying to make it a swiss army knife. It's blogging software, not an eCommerce solution, or tiered membership site with affiliate commissions.

              LEARN something about the BUSINESS you are IN.
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          • Profile picture of the author LarryC
            Actually, that's how most of the gurus' sales letters read -"I bought all these other worthless products till I found the one secret that actually works!" ,etc.


            Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

            So, you're using this thread to pre-sell us on YOUR solution? All the other "gurus" are peddling waste matter, but you're the one with the gold?

            LOL.
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        • Profile picture of the author profitsforall
          Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

          Paul, good copy sets the stage before offering a solution.

          I'm setting the stage.

          I did that with my previous posts that you locked.

          The solution is so new to the Warrior Forum that there isn't even a single post on it.

          I venture to say not a single person on this forum has heard of the solution.

          Yep folks - you can't sell a solution if folks aren't aware of an imaginary problem.

          Most of you don't realise this but the sky is falling down, And I am the only vendor of the magic umbrella that can stop this.

          Should you purchase this fine umbrella I have an upsell on the thankyou page - there are these clothes that are so fine, that only intelligent people can see them. Previous customers have included royalty.

          And a downsell - a cracking bargain price on london bridge. (although the delivery cost is somewhat prohibitive).

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        • Profile picture of the author theory expert
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Harlan View Post


          The solution is so new to the Warrior Forum that there isn't even a single post on it.
          Can you ignore the negative post and get to the meat of this. I'm sorry, but, this statement just sticks out too deeply in my mind.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
          Originally Posted by Harlan View Post


          The solution is so new to the Warrior Forum that there isn't even a single post on it.

          I venture to say not a single person on this forum has heard of the solution.


          Are you going to sell it for $1,997 ???

          I have the money waiting. By the way, if you have any bonuses worth $10,000 or more let me know.

          I'm already sold, but they will convince my wife and kids that it is money well spent.
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        • Profile picture of the author tj
          Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

          ....

          The solution is so new to the Warrior Forum that there isn't even a single post on it.

          I venture to say not a single person on this forum has heard of the solution.
          Getting a job ?

          Timo
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      • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        I'm getting real close to just deleting any thread that starts out negative and doesn't offer some sort of positive alternative solution.

        "A better way to launch a product?"

        "A better way to sell information products?"

        "A better way to become an established expert in your niche?"

        And so on.


        Becky

        P.S. "A better way to get attention?"
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      • Profile picture of the author RussRuffino
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Okay. This one did it.

        Harlan, you're intelligent and literate enough to make these points without playing the "gurus are evil" game. If you'd like to make your points without conspiracy theories, group-bashing, or self-indulgent rhetoric, feel free.

        I'm getting real close to just deleting any thread that starts out negative and doesn't offer some sort of positive alternative solution.


        Paul
        Yes please! I'm so tired of these rant threads - if people aren't too busy making money to compose these 10 page rants, then maybe they have something to learn from the gurus after all.

        I built my whole business by listening to Chris Farrell, Russell Brunson, Yanik Silver and the War Room. I consider the money I've spent in those places to be VERY well spent.

        Russ
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
          Like Mr McGuire says to Benjamin:

          I want to say one word to you. Just one word.

          Plastics.

          Wow, if I hadn't before, now I have really dated myself.
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    • Profile picture of the author yukon
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

      From your signature:
      It's Raining Money On Facebook! http://48hourmoneysecret.com




      And again from your signature:
      Do NO work and make money online http://beachmillions.com

      Guess the "gurus" aren't the only ones selling the dream.
      LMAO!

      That's funny!

      Don't buy from the other guy, buy from me, lol...
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Gram
      Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

      From your signature:
      It's Raining Money On Facebook! http://48hourmoneysecret.com




      And again from your signature:
      Do NO work and make money online http://beachmillions.com

      Guess the "gurus" aren't the only ones selling the dream.
      Yep, what's in his signature is enough for me to never listen to what this guy ever says.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonet Bradley
    Harlan, you bring up some good points however, would you agree that one should not "re-invent" the wheel so to speak, "success leaves footprints"...yada, yada, ya. This is especially true for a newbie.

    There is so much conflicting information out there that it can become quite confusing to know who to follow...I know that I have learned to find one method and stick to it and I have finally starting to see results. What suggestions would you offer for someone that isn't sure whether or not they should invest in these new products?
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  • Profile picture of the author Fat Tony
    I love how you make a big rant about how it's all bull, and then sell the same bull in your signature.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Fat Tony View Post

      I love how you make a big rant about how it's all bull, and then sell the same bull in your signature.
      Yes ... as a famous mod would say ...
      "I love the smell of irony in the morning"
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    • Profile picture of the author skibbz
      Originally Posted by Fat Tony View Post

      I love how you make a big rant about how it's all bull, and then sell the same bull in your signature.
      ahhh hahahaha
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  • Community is the way of the future. It's what social media has been trying to teach us for these past few years.

    Build a community and business naturally follows. A community trusts you as an expert and knows you will stick around to help them for a long time.
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  • Profile picture of the author sammytoga
    How do we know that the guru products don't work? How many of us have paid for one of those products, only to read through it and put it on a shelf. A few of us actually try what they are teaching and fail, so we stop trying their system. Yes many of the guru products are the same old rehashed crap, but guess what, people are still buying it!

    Internet marketing is about trying, failing, and re-trying
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Dolan
      Originally Posted by sammytoga View Post

      How do we know that the guru products don't work? How many of us have paid for one of those products, only to read through it and put it on a shelf. A few of us actually try what they are teaching and fail, so we stop trying their system. Yes many of the guru products are the same old rehashed crap, but guess what, people are still buying it!

      Internet marketing is about trying, failing, and re-trying
      Its true, I am grateful that Clickbank makes it easy to get your money back when these products frequently don't live up to their hype, or simply don't actually work.

      But agree with others in the thread.

      The inflated claims via Clickbank are just wrong, they are lies, falsified ... fortunately these new product pitch pages all look more or less the same - you either have a video with someone telling you he is about to share something amazing, or have 20 screenshots of different fake accounts and traffic stats, that mean nothing, but look great cause you think if only that was my account -

      The gurus push out rehashed bs for the most part.

      Occasionally something real is in among it. But those who have big mailing lists go for high volume sales of $37 - $47 products with 2 or 3 upsells. They accept a 40% refund rate glady cause the 60% means another 20-30k minimum in their pocket.

      Do they ever use the Plan, Blueprint, Software they sell - certainly not to generate the fake screenshot results ... some have told me privately "no!"

      If it smells like BS it usually is.

      So now if the screenshots look like BS it usually is.

      Interesting and thought provoking thread.
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    • Profile picture of the author skylarw
      Originally Posted by sammytoga View Post

      Internet marketing is about trying, failing, and re-trying
      Ok this is silly... IM is about making money! Why would I want to repeat this cycle over and over again? Try..Fail..Try... You get the picture.

      I think what Harlan was trying to say is that Internet Marketing in the "How to make money" niche is dead. While I do not agree with this completely, I must say that it can be quite discouraging to see the same people dangling the same bait, different color in front of desperate people who continuously take it hook, line and sinker.

      However, there are plenty of ways to make money on/with the internet. Now, if I could just figure one out...
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by skylarw View Post

        I think what Harlan was trying to say is that Internet Marketing in the "How to make money" niche is dead. While I do not agree with this completely, I must say that it can be quite discouraging to see the same people dangling the same bait, different color in front of desperate people who continuously take it hook, line and sinker.

        So how exactly is this different than what Harlan is doing here?

        There is nothing new or ground-breaking about his proposal. The only thing that has changed is a shiny new box.
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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          So how exactly is this different than what Harlan is doing here?

          There is nothing new or ground-breaking about his proposal. The only thing that has changed is a shiny new box.
          I couldn't agree more, Bill. It's just another established concept within the IM community that has been dressed up in a shiny new wrapper, meant to cause shock and awe among the impressionable.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    Who said we're buying this crap?

    Some of us are not the sheeple others are assuming we are.

    Yes - we can see through all the re-hashed methods and know that their 'invaluable secrets' are the same things that you can read in any marketing 101 book from the last 50 years, but that usually means we're not their audience.

    Most of the big names from recent years (the last 10) seem to have moved on to milking ignorant business owners and executives so that they can see their stuff for 50 times what the newbie IMers will pay.

    They can say the same things we say here but charge their clients $2k an hour for it.

    The only people trying to shoot the fish in this barrel are the ones who haven't stepped up to the low volume - high margin arena.

    Many Gurus from recent years are struggling to pay their bills and live up to their previous hype.

    Not all of us have our heads stuck in the IM world so far that we can't put it into perspective.

    The ones who do - probably won't read what you're saying anyway as it's not what they want to hear.

    Andy
    Signature

    nothing to see here.

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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      Who said we're buying this crap?

      Some of us are not the sheeple others are assuming we are.

      Yes - we can see through all the re-hashed methods and know that their 'invaluable secrets' are the same things that you can read in any marketing 101 book from the last 50 years, but that usually means we're not their audience.

      Most of the big names from recent years (the last 10) seem to have moved on to milking ignorant business owners and executives so that they can see their stuff for 50 times what the newbie IMers will pay.

      They can say the same things we say here but charge their clients $2k an hour for it.

      The only people trying to shoot the fish in this barrel are the ones who haven't stepped up to the low volume - high margin arena.

      Many Gurus from recent years are struggling to pay their bills and live up to their previous hype.

      Not all of us have our heads stuck in the IM world so far that we can't put it into perspective.

      The ones who do - probably won't read what you're saying anyway as it's not what they want to hear.

      Andy
      Andy take a look at the Product reviews section. That's who is buying this crap.

      Take a look at the WSO section selling the same outdated stuff.

      That's who is buying this stuff.

      I'll spare you the famous Pogo quote.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    This isn't a theater, sir. And you are not the featured act.

    By the way, there's a rather significant difference between "setting the stage" and prepping the market with this odious brand of propaganda. You get away with that stuff in the copywriter's section. Not here.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      This isn't a theater, sir. And you are not the featured act.

      By the way, there's a rather significant difference between "setting the stage" and prepping the market with this odious brand of propaganda. You get away with that stuff in the copywriter's section. Not here.


      Paul
      Feel free to delete any time Paul.
      Signature

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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Harlan,
        Feel free to delete any time Paul.
        Tsk. I'm waiting for you to deliver your soliloquy, and share with us the brilliant idea which you, alone among the tens of thousands of people here, have ever considered.

        Well? Gonna keep your audience waiting, maestro?


        Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      This isn't a theater, sir. And you are not the featured act.

      By the way, there's a rather significant difference between "setting the stage" and prepping the market with this odious brand of propaganda. You get away with that stuff in the copywriter's section. Not here.


      Paul
      How many times has he done this lately? The same old, same old. Yes it's obvious he's "setting the stage" as he calls it - in other words he has another product coming out. "Odious brand of propaganda" is exactly right. Or "How to shoot yourself in the foot again and again".
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  • Profile picture of the author PaulMark
    For sale... Magic Beans

    For sale... Business Effort

    The first one sells almost every time. People loooooove Hopium. It's the drug of choice. And like any drug is has a high street value that's why $1997 is a popular number. The junkie can find a way to tap the latest bag.

    There will always be a mass of new folks willing to take a taste.

    Long-term focus is def. Chris' approach. People who are loyal to your leadership. I love that "model" too. You can sleep without wondering how many new addicts you created that day.
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  • Profile picture of the author howard542
    yep you got me thinking alright...nice post!!
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  • Hey, attention hogs, the answer to what he's talking about is COMMUNITY.

    At least I hope that's his answer, because I will eat my hat if it doesn't become the focal point of businesses and trends during 2011.

    A community builds credibility, respect and an army of followers ready to proclaim your greatness.

    It allows you to launch products and create value just by listening to your community and what they want. It creates the ultimate level of interaction between product creator and buyers.

    So yeah, if you say anything else, like a product or something, I'm going to be just as pissed as the other people here who are assuming that you are trying to pitch something to us.

    The entire rant is geared towards people who have purchased and been screwed by a guru in the past. What does that audience want? A better quality product.

    That could also be your answer, quality. Either way, waiting to see
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Chris,

      There are any number of things one could posit as appropriate answers to the question, "What's the single word?"

      Example: Wikinomics. (Great book, by the way.) It could also be summed up as "Collaboration."

      I'm waiting to hear what Harlan thinks none of the rest of us have ever considered.


      Paul
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      • Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Chris,

        There are any number of things one could posit as appropriate answers to the question, "What's the single word?"

        Example: Wikinomics. (Great book, by the way.) It could also be summed up as "Collaboration."

        I'm waiting to hear what Harlan thinks none of the rest of us have ever considered.


        Paul
        Funny you mention Collaboration, I've been working on a (non IM) related work trying to convince CEO's and business managers to use more interactive collabortive tools.

        Should I start my presentation with a rant about how paper companies and other manufaturers have been taking advantage of them for years? Perhaps tell them that there is one secret word that will allow them to save money and increase productivity... "Collaboration" ! lol

        Oh and here's my product on how to collaborate correctly, with 6 upsales as well! lol I can't wait to see where this thread goes

        /popcorn
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        So, what is the cure for all this?

        I'm going home now so can someone please PM me the one word that will make all this go away?

        I'd hate to come back and the thread was deleted.

        Despite earning a full time income, today, I bought Gary Kings WSO. Clearly there's something grossly wrong with me, please don't deny me the opportunity to find out how to cure myself of this tragic and terrible waste of my life.

        :rolleyes:

        EDIT...AAARRRGGGHH. I bought yours too Caleb.

        I need my tablets and a straight jacket, now.

        Quick, tell me the one word Harlan, pleeease?
        Signature

        Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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        • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
          Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

          Quick, tell me the one word Harlan, pleeease?
          Richard,

          You found the magic word yourself - it's in the sentence above


          Martin
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          • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
            Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

            Richard,

            You found the magic word yourself - it's in the sentence above


            Martin
            Oh, it's "Harlan", right?

            Thought so. I'll go and buy up all those nice shiny things in his signature.

            Thanks Martin, I can go outdoors again.
            Signature

            Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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          • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
            Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

            Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

            Quick, tell me the one word Harlan, pleeease?
            Richard,

            You found the magic word yourself - it's in the sentence above


            Martin
            Ooh, I like games like this. Okay, is the magic word tell? It is, isn't it? What do I win?
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            • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
              Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

              Ooh, I like games like this. Okay, is the magic word tell? It is, isn't it? What do I win?
              Oh jolly Well done Dan, excellent answer....

              You win a copy of.....Beach Millions!!!
              Signature

              Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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              • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                Banned
                A thread about nothing. How riveting!
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              • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
                Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                You win a copy of.....Beach Millions!!!
                Richard, that's cruel.

                You're supposed to reward winners, not punish them!


                Martin
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                • Profile picture of the author stuartg
                  I would say wasting precious time on things that do not produce income. They say time is money, so do not waste time on things that you can outsource.
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                • Profile picture of the author Nightengale
                  I haven't read the whole thread but...

                  I find Harlan's post at least mildly insulting.

                  A couple of other points came to mind:

                  1. Bashing the gurus is an out of date tactic and rather ridiculous.

                  2. Technology continuously changes and evolves and so does business. So people doing business must always adapt. But the Internet isn't going anywhere and online marketing is here to stay, in whatever form it takes. So enough with the "IM is dead!" junk, ok? I started out as a copywriter and I know all about making a bold or controversial statement to get attention and make a point. But this one is completely overdone.

                  3. IM isn't hard, but there's a steep learning curve. And just like any form of direct marketing, sometimes the trial and error period before hitting success is longer for some than others. But that doesn't mean IM isn't legitimate.

                  Paul Meyers is right: making sweeping generalizations and insulting your audience isn't the way to engage in a conversation OR sell anything, no matter how well educated you are. (I have a college degree too.)

                  Anyone who's reasonably intelligent and has been around IM for even a short time realizes there's a lot of junk and has to learn to separate the wheat from the chaff. There are a lot of fine people in IM who are experts at what they do AND have been around for quite a while (10+ years).

                  After studying IM for a while, I discovered some of these people and chose to FOCUS and follow just a handful of experts, listen and learn from them and then take ACTION -- shutting everyone else out. I was heartily SICK of the incestuous nature of IM and had to deliberately choose to ignore most of it (with a couple of exceptions) for quite a while.

                  Anyone can do the same. If you're confused and wants REAL, solid information, I suggest looking for the experts in your field, pick just two or three, follow them and shut everyone else out.

                  It's made a HUGE difference for me. I've chosen the very best people in my field to learn from and have been very happy with what I've bought and learned. And I ignore most everything else from almost everyone else.

                  I've been SO HAPPY with my mentors! I'm so happy to recommend them:


                  1. Alexandria Brown -- AliBrown.com

                  Her Online Success Blueprint is AWESOME. It's an online marketing plan for people with REAL businesses, not IMers selling to other IMers.


                  2. Carrie Wilkerson -- Barefoot-Executive.com

                  Carrie is warm and authentic. I love her stuff!


                  3. Lisa Sasevich -- LisaSasevich.com

                  Lisa's expertise is on speaking and irresistible offers (live presentations and teleseminars). She ROCKS at what she does: helping you make big money at what you LOVE doing by crafting irresistible offers and selling without being "sales-y."


                  4. Joan Stewart -- PublicityHound.com

                  Joan is a publicity expert and also rocks at what she does. She has a LOT of good information on getting free publicity and using the media to get your message out.


                  5. Sheri McConnell -- SmartWomenInstitute.com

                  Sheri is my most recent mentor and she's PHENOMENAL! I can't recommend her highly enough. Sheri founded and ran the National Association of Women Writers for 10 years before folding it into the Smart Women's Institute.

                  I've learned so much from her. She taught me how to create and run an association (her signature expertise) and she also co-published my newest book "Boost Business Online."

                  I didn't necessarily set out to learn only from women, it just happened that way. These ladies ROCK and have been around a LONG time. I've spent OVER $1,000 with each of them and the investment was well worth it.

                  So if you're looking for help, try these ladies out! (And no, they don't only offer expensive stuff. They all offer very low-cost things too so you can try them out and get started.)

                  I believe that any reasonably intelligent person is smart enough to sift through the junk and hype on their own to find the real gems. So calling us "clueless" and insinuating that we're dumb enough to only keep buying the junk and hype is ridiculous.

                  There will ALWAYS be junk and hype in ANY market. But since we live in a free market economy, there will also always be people who won't sell their souls for a quick buck. They offer solid, reputable products and services because they care about what they're doing and want to create positive change in the world by doing what they're good at and what they love to do.

                  It's the MY job (and YOUR job) to find those people. If I'm ONLY finding junk and hype and continuously losing money, at some point, I have to look in the mirror to find the responsible party.

                  So please don't insult me by calling me "clueless."

                  Michelle
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                • Profile picture of the author Dougger1
                  I've unsubscribed from just about all the gurus - excepting some that actually offer useful information. I have a sneaking suspicion that many of the gurus are just people who had one great success. made a name for themselves, built a list and have been earning money ever since then - just mailing other marketers' offers. I have heard - though I can't document it - that most of these big launches end up with 50% to 60% refunds. Makes one wonder.
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                • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
                  Banned
                  Ironic thread, considering the links in the OP's sig, lol.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Bradshaw
                    The answer is honesty.
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                • Profile picture of the author fredgettings
                  Banned
                  [DELETED]
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  So many bright people have already said what needed to be said in regard
                  to your post being a load of...well, whatever you want to call it.

                  So I'm just going to add this.

                  Shame on you for thinking we're all so stupid that we can't see through
                  this crap.

                  I'd be offended if not for the fact that I expect this sort of drivel from you.

                  These rants are getting very old and have a very bad smell associated
                  with them.
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                • Profile picture of the author Zachmo
                  The issue about death of something. A thread about this has been talked about and as what a warrior there(can't remember the name) replied, it's better to just go on with what you're doing with passion and let this issue not affect anyone who by then will keep becoming successful while others are still mourning.
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                • Profile picture of the author thegotoguy
                  Ya I still get emails on a daily basis for just about every new product launch online. They aren't all junk, but they are all over priced and don't live up to the hype. Even the testimonials are rigged! They offer a backlink on their high ranking page for past customers to offer a testimonial on the new product and how happy they are to have found it. So its a bull---- testimonial. Internet marketing has changed. Your absolutely right. Customer satisfaction is under-rated and the products are mostly over-rated. No even keel!

                  But! This leaves plenty of room for true professionals to shine! Treat your customers right and be clear on what they are getting for their money. If your product/service sucks, they won't be back! So make sure its priced right, and does what you promise!
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        • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
          It's Raining Money On Facebook!
          Do NO work and make money online
          I once thanked the first thread I saw of yours, and I thank you for that,
          because it showed me to pay more attention before I press thanks.

          I said in a thread the other day, how everything works in cycles.
          Now bash the gurus is being overworked.
          Or do you actually see yourself as one of the young Turks overthrowing the old guard?

          Harlan, I 'll hand you one thing with these threads, I've not been so entertained and had my intelligence insulted at the same time, since the Rich Jerk



          Your doing the same B.S. your supposedly bitching about.

          Jim
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  • Profile picture of the author Online Bliss
    When you come here and stir up the hornets nest - you must know what response you're going to get.
    Wow Andy,
    you have said everything I was thinking
    regarding this thread.
    Great analogies!
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  • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
    Like the "16 year old girl" product that came out this year. It had FRAUD written in capital letters written all over the page.
    I'll be completely straight up with you... I had a hard time believing that one too... But, I also chatted with Carol, and found her to be a little bit "off base"... Either it was someone acting "as a" 16 year old... Or she was just very nervous, because she would only text chat and not call.

    However, I don't think that because someone says they are 16... That you should immediately associate that with BS, because "no 16 year old can make it".. Because they can.... And that is my obviously biased opinion

    Caleb
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    Canadian Expat Living in Medellin, Colombia

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  • Profile picture of the author mike959100
    Originally Posted by Craig Desorcy View Post

    positive alternative:

    1. Find a niche you have a passion for. (Make sure people are spending money in it)
    and it juices you (Passion).

    2. Become a servant. Ask yourself, how can I serve? How can I make things easier
    for this group? What problems can I solve?

    3. Monetize.

    Or something like that ;-)

    Best,

    Craig
    Yes I agree, couldnt have said it better. Finding a niche is probably the most effective way about getting noticed
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Mal,

      I'm not assuming anything about his motives. Just his words, as they appear in this thread.

      If the folks in the Kopy Klatsch want to play at this sort of thing, I'm fine with that. They all know, or should know, what's going on with it. It doesn't belong in main discussion.

      What's interesting is his assumption that I am the person who's deleted whatever other threads like this he's posted. I may have been, but none of them stick out in mind at the moment. There are at least a half dozen people who could have booted the previous ones.

      While I'm certain there are many things I could learn from Harlan, I find it interesting to see the claim that none of the thousands of members here have ever heard of his wonderful new concept. It's quite possible I haven't, but... no-one else here at all?

      Highly implausible.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Steve Taylor
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Mal,

        I'm not assuming anything about his motives. Just his words, as they appear in this thread.

        If the folks in the Kopy Klatsch want to play at this sort of thing, I'm fine with that. They all know, or should know, what's going on with it. It doesn't belong in main discussion.

        What's interesting is his assumption that I am the person who's deleted whatever other threads like this he's posted. I may have been, but none of them stick out in mind at the moment. There are at least a half dozen people who could have booted the previous ones.

        While I'm certain there are many things I could learn from Harlan, I find it interesting to see the claim that none of the thousands of members here have ever heard of his wonderful new concept. It's quite possible I haven't, but... no-one else here at all?

        Highly implausible.


        Paul
        We're waiting for his "New Shiny Word" that's just been rehashed. LOL
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by Steve Taylor View Post

          We're waiting for his "New Shiny Word" that's just been rehashed. LOL

          I think we will be waiting for a while...

          Obviously anyone who questions his wisdom is not worthy of his "New Shiny Word".



          But, I am pretty certain at this point that I have figured out his "magic word".

          When he stomped out of the thread like a self-absorbed toddler, he proved that his departure was part of his original launch plan.

          So let's examine again his description of this "magic word" of his:

          Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

          The solution is so new to the Warrior Forum that there isn't even a single post on it.

          I venture to say not a single person on this forum has heard of the solution.

          His magic word must be declared to have its intended effect.

          His magic word is DEFEAT !!!

          His solution for us is to declare DEFEAT, quit Internet Marketing, and go get a job.

          As you can see, this is a "solution" that has never been discussed on the Warrior Forum. In fact, it is a "solution" that most of us have never heard and never will hear from our own mouths...

          :rolleyes:
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          • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
            "I venture to say not a single person on this forum has heard of the solution. "

            That's because he never tells it to us

            I could say the same thing and then not tell you. Until you open you mouth - you can't be proved wrong.

            This is how religion works - "I'm going to tell you what God wants you to do. YOU cannot hear him for yourself so you must just accept that was I say is what God has told me" There's no way to be self-empowered when you step into a system with rules like this.

            It's better to remain silent and be suspected a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

            Andy
            Signature

            nothing to see here.

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            • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
              Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post


              Clickbank is payment processor. They're no more a fraud than Paypal or another other third party payment processor.
              Not quite true. CB is a wholesaler, if anything.

              Technically they'd be more of a reseller, full prices and all, not wholesale ... but for all practical purposes they are a 3rd party payment processor. That's essentially the function they serve.
              Signature

              Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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              • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                Technically they'd be more of a reseller, full prices and all, not wholesale ... but for all practical purposes they are a 3rd party payment processor. That's essentially the function they serve.
                Actually - you're right. I stand corrected.
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                • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
                  Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

                  Actually - you're right. I stand corrected.
                  Have a seat instead, Mal. It's a long thread.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
            Originally Posted by tpw View Post

            His magic word must be declared to have its intended effect.

            His magic word is DEFEAT !!!

            His solution for us is to declare DEFEAT, quit Internet Marketing, and go get a job.

            As you can see, this is a "solution" that has never been discussed on the Warrior Forum. In fact, it is a "solution" that most of us have never heard and never will hear from our own mouths...

            :rolleyes:
            Can't be. It's not infrequently that warriors advise the clueless to get a job rather than to dabble in IM. So, since that is something that is known to the Warrior Forum, that cannot be the "magic word."

            Nor can "integrity" be the "magic word" as implied by The Copy Nazi's link to Joel Comm's blog. Integrity has several proponents on this forum, so that is not something new to the Warrior Forum either.

            So, I guess it's back to the waiting game.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    I have a one-word solution to all problems.......

    Accountability.

    None of the launches really make any difference if you hold yourself accountable for the results of your business.

    The reliance on others to tell you what to do and how to do it is where most of the problems come from.

    I don't care what people are launching or how they're doing it - that's nothing to do with me.
    Signature

    nothing to see here.

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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      I have a one-word solution to all problems.......

      Accountability.

      None of the launches really make any difference if you hold yourself accountable for the results of your business.

      The reliance on others to tell you what to do and how to do it is where most of the problems come from.

      I don't care what people are launching or how they're doing it - that's nothing to do with me.
      I agree Andy. Accountability is the issue. I was on a 24 hour ustream with one famous guru a couple of years ago and someone asked what he would do if he had to start over again... He said he would do the same thing as he discovered his "passion" was truly teaching. So, then I posed the question that if his passion was teaching then how does he reconcile the fact that some high percentage(over 90% lets say) of his students still fail. He said that he can only present the material and he can't be responsible if the student actually learns it or does something with it. So, then I said it must be nice to have NO ACCOUNTABILITY. Which didnt seem to go over well. But I pointed out that if a teacher failed 90%+ of their students... They would eventually get fired. And the best teachers have a passion for getting their students to truly learn and understand. To which he had no answer.

      Now, before everybody starts going to the argument about people are responsible for their own actions, etc... and its the buyers fault for not reading or implementing the materials... I agree. I am not making that point at all. My point is that he should have just been honest and said that his passion is making money - and this was an easy way to do it. Not that his passion was teaching. Because if thats the case then there would be a different sense of accountability to students success. The problem is that accountability doesn't scale well.

      So, I see the accountability as my own issue. And I just understand that no matter what the message or how good the guy, he is in it for the money. Which is cool with me - so am I.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Kevin,

        The proper response to your first question would have been, "Teachers in formal settings have students who've learned the pre-requisites for their courses."

        I'm not arguing against your premise, just pointing out the hole in part of the structure. It could easily be fixed with proper ad copy, but most of the folks who buy things they aren't ready to use also don't read that sort of cautionary note.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Kevin,

          The proper response to your first question would have been, "Teachers in formal settings have students who've learned the pre-requisites for their courses."

          I'm not arguing against your premise, just pointing out the hole in part of the structure. It could easily be fixed with proper ad copy, but most of the folks who buy things they aren't ready to use also don't read that sort of cautionary note.


          Paul
          I agree with you. And I actually thought he might have gone that route in an answer to me that day which would have started a conversation that I would have really liked to have with him - as I think he's a smart guy. But instead he went a different route that was sort of cliche I felt - which didn't really create any meaningful dialogue. So, unfortunately it didn't really result in any progress... but I think about it - especially when I come to WF and see so many struggling.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
        Mag wheels or hubcaps.

        The basic business principles hardly ever change to any degree although the delivery methods to get a sales messege across do tend to grow with technotime.

        But in the end the wheels still go round and round.

        So the question is what's hot today, mag wheels or hub caps.

        They sure seem to make a world of difference to those who choose.

        But the tires don't care one way or the other, they just keep going round and round.

        ~Bill
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Bill,
          The basic business principles hardly ever change to any degree although the delivery methods to get a sales messege across do tend to grow with technotime.
          "Hardly" is true. The potential in collaborative markets described in Wikinomics is one very large change that's an exception to the rule.

          The techs who built the network understood the idea, of course, long before that book was conceived, but the authors do a nice job of explaining it for folks who're new to the notion.

          I want to see what Harlan's word is, personally. It would be nice to actually learn something new from one of these threads for a change.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Harlan
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            I want to see what Harlan's word is, personally. It would be nice to actually learn something new from one of these threads for a change.


            Paul
            Dear Paul, I tried to post my one word answer.

            But the answer isn't 10 characters long.

            So it won't let me post.
            Signature

            Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
            Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
            http://overnight-copy.com
            Get Fit In Four Minuteshttp://just4minutes.com
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            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              Dear Paul, I tried to post my one word answer.

              But the answer isn't 10 characters long.

              So it won't let me post.

              Then use an ellipsis or three after your one word...

              Because your credibility is struggling to catch its breath...
              Signature
              Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
              Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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              • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
                Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                Then use an ellipsis or three after your one word...

                Because your credibility is struggling to catch its breath...
                For many of us it's already too late. Flatlined much earlier in the thread.
                Signature
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              • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                Then use an ellipsis or three after your one word...

                Because your credibility is struggling to catch its breath...
                I'm not clever enough to know why he's playing dumb about posting - I KNOW he's not stupid enough to really not be able to post his one word answer.

                I hope it's not just a lame tactic to try and make us want to hear the answer - I actually couldn't give a toss what it is now, but I'm interested to see why he wants us all to think he's stupid and making a mockery of himself like he wants to see who jumps onboard to kick him when they think he's on the back foot.

                He's clever enough to know we're not all buying into it so it's either just an experiment out of boredom, or he forgot we're not all retarded when he posted the OP and now is just playing out the thread from morbid curiosity about what other crazy stuff we'll post in response.
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                nothing to see here.

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                • Profile picture of the author tpw
                  Andy: I have been leaning this way for most of the day...


                  Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

                  he forgot we're not all retarded when he posted the OP

                  And thinking, "Pride cometh before the fall."
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                  Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
                  Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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                  • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
                    Originally Posted by Kim Lauren View Post

                    Is that a Lennon/McCartney penned song? Ringo wrote about getting by with a little help from his friends, but not a plea for help.
                    I have no idea, I'm not *educated* in such... just thought by signing "Ringo" it would be funnier. I laughed - which is all that matters - to me. lol

                    ~Yoko Ono
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                    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                      I spent the afternoon with the world's greatest copywriter.

                      Maybe Paul has heard of him - maybe not.

                      He isn't American but the man is a master.

                      He has sold hundreds of millions of dollars.

                      We spent the afternoon filming him to share a video of his teaching about email marketing.

                      Single emails have brought in more than a million dollars without a product launch and without affiliates.

                      But after coming back and seeing what's happened in the meantime, I sincerely feel I'm wasting my time here.

                      I don't spend a full day cruising the Warrior Forum.

                      They say when the student is willing, the teacher appears.

                      When the student is unwilling, the teacher disappears.
                      Signature

                      Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
                      Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
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                      • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
                        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                        I spent the afternoon with the world's greatest copywriter.

                        Maybe Paul has heard of him - maybe not.

                        He isn't American but the man is a master.

                        He has sold hundreds of millions of dollars.

                        We spent the afternoon filming him to share a video of his teaching about email marketing.

                        Single emails have brought in more than a million dollars without a product launch and without affiliates.

                        But after coming back and seeing what's happened in the meantime, I sincerely feel I'm wasting my time here.

                        I don't spend a full day cruising the Warrior Forum.

                        They say when the student is willing, the teacher appears.

                        When the student is unwilling, the teacher disappears.
                        Oooh, very interesting.

                        Would you be so kind as to now finally make the point you were trying to (or going to) make before?

                        Otherwise, what's the point of the thread? Just to attract attention?
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                      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
                        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                        I spent the afternoon with the world's greatest copywriter.

                        Maybe Paul has heard of him - maybe not.

                        He isn't American but the man is a master.

                        He has sold hundreds of millions of dollars.

                        We spent the afternoon filming him to share a video of his teaching about email marketing.

                        Single emails have brought in more than a million dollars without a product launch and without affiliates.

                        But after coming back and seeing what's happened in the meantime, I sincerely feel I'm wasting my time here.

                        I don't spend a full day cruising the Warrior Forum.

                        They say when the student is willing, the teacher appears.

                        When the student is unwilling, the teacher disappears.

                        I have only one thought about this post - was it written just now or a few days ago?


                        Martin
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                      • Profile picture of the author tpw
                        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                        But after coming back and seeing what's happened in the meantime, I sincerely feel I'm wasting my time here.




                        Paul: He might be a smart dude, so I am going to keep some of my more colorful thoughts to myself. :p
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                        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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                      • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
                        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                        We spent the afternoon filming him to share a video of his teaching about email marketing.

                        Single emails have brought in more than a million dollars without a product launch and without affiliates.
                        Email marketing. Hmm. Sounds like something that was being taught in 2004.

                        And 2002.

                        2000.

                        1998.

                        1996.

                        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                        They are teaching the same model that they learned in 2004.

                        None of the stuff they are teaching works today.
                        Uh-huh.
                        Signature

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                      • Profile picture of the author Gary_The_Ace
                        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                        I spent the afternoon with the world's greatest copywriter.

                        Maybe Paul has heard of him - maybe not.

                        He isn't American but the man is a master.

                        He has sold hundreds of millions of dollars.

                        We spent the afternoon filming him to share a video of his teaching about email marketing.

                        Single emails have brought in more than a million dollars without a product launch and without affiliates.

                        But after coming back and seeing what's happened in the meantime, I sincerely feel I'm wasting my time here.

                        I don't spend a full day cruising the Warrior Forum.

                        They say when the student is willing, the teacher appears.

                        When the student is unwilling, the teacher disappears.
                        I was holding out hope that you hadn't completely lost it...

                        I'm still not sure.

                        -Gary
                        Signature
                        If you have an automated webinar in the IM, biz opp, or make money space, and if it already converts to cold, and/or paid traffic... I want to send free traffic, and free leads to you registration page, every single day, until it stops converting. CLICK HERE FOR DETAILS NOW.

                        P.P.S. Viral Marketing Doesn't Work ... Tell Everyone You Know! ;)
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                      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post


                        When the student is unwilling, the teacher disappears.
                        Someone's been drinking their own cool-ade.

                        You got called-out... why not just admit that your OP was lazy and not actually written for this forum's members (we know it anyway) and have a decent discusssion about the point you were trying to make?

                        You're an NLPer - the meaning of your communication is the response it elicits - It looks like you're not practising your own craft and are unwilling to learn.

                        Thinking you already know it all is a recipe for disaster.

                        Until you spat your dummy out and decided to take your toys home with you - there were still people here giving you the benefit of the doubt and hoping you would transcend the trashing and have an inspiring come-back.

                        Telling us we're not worthy of your teaching is not that inspiring and worse - having it as the last thing you said will not inspire many people to read the next time you start a thread either.

                        Surely that's not what you wanted?

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                        nothing to see here.

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                      • Profile picture of the author MrWonton
                        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                        He isn't American but the man is a master.
                        Is being American a prerequisite for being a Master?

                        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                        He has sold hundreds of millions of dollars.
                        He sells currency? Does he offer a good exchange rate?

                        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                        But after coming back and seeing what's happened in the meantime, I sincerely feel I'm wasting my time here.
                        You feel you're wasting your time?!

                        To those saying that this thread was simply a well thought out signature promotion tool, you're probably right. It seems Harlan is a level 10 troll. What I fail to see is how someone can be so comfortable with comprimising their name and 'reputation' for the sake of a few product sales.

                        I think I'd rather keep my integrity to be honest.
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            • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              Dear Paul, I tried to post my one word answer.

              But the answer isn't 10 characters long.

              So it won't let me post.
              Huh?............
              Signature
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            • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              Dear Paul, I tried to post my one word answer.

              But the answer isn't 10 characters long.

              So it won't let me post.


              O'please
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            • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              Dear Paul, I tried to post my one word answer.

              But the answer isn't 10 characters long.

              So it won't let me post.
              You couldn't type out something like "The word is _____" and fill in the blank?
              Signature

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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Harlan,
              So it won't let me post.
              Oh?
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            • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              Dear Paul, I tried to post my one word answer.

              But the answer isn't 10 characters long.

              So it won't let me post.
              What a piss poor excuse.

              What's up? Got stage fright?

              Or scared that Toto might come along and expose you
              pulling the levers?


              Humbug indeed.

              However, there's a few marketing lessons in this thread.

              One is on how to get attention.

              But, for insights on how to keep attention and actually
              deliver, look elsewhere for your 'education.'

              Dedicated to mutual success,

              Shaun
              Signature

              .

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            • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              Dear Paul, I tried to post my one word answer.

              But the answer isn't 10 characters long.

              So it won't let me post.
              You're educated. Be creative and add some characters.
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Suzanne,

                You mean, like this maybe?

                Hey! This is the perfect chance for me to sneak in a subliminal (subluminal?) plug for my new widget-whacker! Kewlll....


                Paul (aka, "The Invisible Mod")
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                • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
                  Paul,

                  So, what's up with this new widget-whacker?

                  Anyway, you have to remember the background color of the forum is not white, so when you do the text in white, it's still visible.

                  But, you can do the text in a color that matches the background color, which makes it completely invisible.

                  Unless, of course, you go and highlight it. Or quote it.

                  But, other than that, completely invisible!
                  Signature

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                  Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Suzanne,

                  You mean, like this maybe?

                  Hey! This is the perfect chance for me to sneak in a subliminal (subluminal?) plug for my new widget-whacker! Kewlll....


                  Paul (aka, "The Invisible Mod")

                  lol ... dag I hate that subliminal stuff. I bought the damned widget-whacker and don't now what to do with it.
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                  • Profile picture of the author CyberSorcerer
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post


                    lol ... dag I hate that subliminal stuff. I bought the damned widget-whacker and don't now what to do with it.
                    I too bought it and I know what whacker meant so I had the general idea of what he's talking about.

                    I just don't call mine widget?

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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Well Folks, you all know the answer to this without Harlan even sharing his special, unique wisdom with us....

    Those who can, do.

    Those who can't, teach.


    Then they stomp their feet...

    And rant about how no one is smart enough to see their wisdom...

    And they waste the final years of their life, wallowing in bitterness and resentment...

    The spend their last years on this earth looking back, never realizing that they must look forward to see the future...

    Oh well...

    Back to the current performance...

    "Wallowing in Self Pity"
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    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author 2marketnow
    Prehaps, experience cost money. Pay for college -- work in another field. Go into IM pay less than college -- yet burn a few $1,000 or less to see quickly -- purchase one item and 20 beggars are at the door begging to sell you something 'that really works and is the best of the best'. Bite -- purchase -- find out quickly -- learn to stop feeding the dog that bit you. Pay less than college -- learn a lot about something new -- venture out on your own and invest yourself instead of the quick result promising expert. They can't stop you ... It should not take anyone long to learn that IM promises are akin to going to a foreign country where every place you go someone is begging you to buy something. Only difference -- most of these gents/gals are not poor just praying on new blood. Truth -- you'll find the right way if you go to the library, investigate and use common sense coupled with caution.

    The best salesman I ever saw was a panhandler in DC. My son, 17 at the time, was stopped as we were going into a restuarant by a guy sitting on the sidewalk begging for money. My kindhearted son wanted to help but did not want his help going to the liquior store so he told man -- I'll get you something to eat at McD's -- the man put in an order for a #8. The most expensive item on the menu. The man never got up, got more than had my son given him a dollar or change. The man told my son to listen to his mother in the future -- This man saw a sale coming -- Best of luck to all --
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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    Oh please.

    I know of sites that started from scratch in the 1990's that are still going strong today, if not stronger...that haven't changed a thing since they launched (well, the websites look a lot better...but the plan they use is the same thing they used back in the bad old 1990's).

    The reason? They stick to basics....and don't go for the latest fads much.

    Take Ratpadz inc.. Their marketing plan is real simple: Create a website to draw their target market (the website is hard|ocp if you want to take a look), then slip in an ad now and again as appropriate. While you and others are out there chasing fads, they quitely make bank each and every year. I can't even remember when the last time was they launched a new product...as it was quite a while ago.

    The takeaway: broad, deep, relevant, useful content wins every time. In short, provide value, and you win. It won in the 1990's...and it's stood the test of time and still wins today.

    The more things change, the more it stays the same. Whodathunkit?
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    • Profile picture of the author Manc
      What do you mean IM this same sales "technique" was around way before the internet was.

      Back in 1993 when I fell for a book promising to tell me how to make millions within a year. I was expecting some huge manual of biblical proportions... I got it and it was some really thin paperback book - it cost £20.

      Here in the UK back then I was also always looking in "Exchange & Mart" which might be a funny place to look you might think, but that was absolutely packed with "business opportunities" like this.

      All they did was took offline business opportunities and put them online. The actual internet itself seems to me to be hardly a part of this, its just another sales medium to sell this same stuff.

      Its big secret? The big secret it promoted throughout an entire page of a national newspaper was to simply start your own mail order business! No real tips, tricks or secrets, just start your own mail order business.

      Being young and naive I half thought I would make a million in a year but I fully thought I was getting something more than I did - this one time was enough for me to realize to never buy anything like this again no matter what it promises.

      Now it seems to have gone so far the other way that IM "guru's" selling you the next potion ARE in fact this time, unlike offline books, giving you something in return, for example software!

      I never got software that actually does something useful out of that book I bought, this time around we still have all the false promises but IMO those "guru's" are not even ripping people off in anything like the same way.

      Yes their claims are outrageous, but what if the software they provide cost you $37 and yet in your first week of using it you made back your $37 outlay x2 or x3? Would you even get a refund?

      Personally I don't even care about being rich and I don't think about. All I am doing now is working as hard as I can with the free tools I have to try to upscale things a bit more, or start up a totally new thing myself... well its new to me.

      Here's a clue - sell something else. Some of my niche sites, people have already said to me (who already know I set it up to make money) hey yeah that does sound like a genuine niche.

      I rang that paper and they quoted me £32,000 for a full page advert and thats in 1993. So this is the kind of money those guys were spending. The important thing is - I never saw such an advert in that paper ever again for years afterwards.

      To me that can only mean two things, either the guy did not make more than £32,000 so he lost out, or he made so much money he retired from that one campaign.

      That paper had 3,000,000 readers daily! So he sells the book at £20, he needs to sell 1600 copies. That means 1 in 1875 people needed to buy it for him to break even.

      All I know is the same techniques are still used today.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Ah. I got it. (Just checked my email.) He won't tell us until tomorrow, after part two of the article he sent to his subscribers this morning comes out...


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      I'm really disappointed to hear that.

      So this thread really was just part of the pre-sales process.... Bummer

      It's sad to think that we have such potentially valuable members that only come here when they're running a promotion just to shoot a few extra fish in our barrel.
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      nothing to see here.

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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Andy,
        It's sad to think that we have such potentially valuable members that only come here when they're running a promotion just to shoot a few extra fish in our barrel.
        I'm not prepared to assume that yet. We'll wait and see.


        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Pre sales process? Noooo.

        I thought this was the answer to all of us being mugs for buying anything online before this thread arrived?

        At least from this thread the OP can see who won't buy his new silver shiny thingy.

        Which incidentally, defeats the whole object of having started the thread in the first place.

        I'm not prepared to assume that yet. We'll wait and see.
        I'm with you totally here Paul.

        One word and all of us get to see how silly we've been. :rolleyes:
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        Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Ah. I got it. (Just checked my email.) He won't tell us until tomorrow, after part two of the article he sent to his subscribers this morning comes out...


      Paul

      So this was Part One of his article series?

      Haha

      If I had done this, the post would have been reported by any of several of my Warrior followers, and it would have become my latest nuked thread.
      Signature
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      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author robvegas626
    Harlan, it was a thought-provoking post. But I'd like to hear your thoughts on what is REAL and what is NEXT.

    The gurus like Frank Kern have been quiet lately...are they quietly regrouping and planning the next big thing? Or, is the era of a "Syndicate" ramming mediocre IM products down our throats dead and finished? I've heard the recent product launches were mediocre at best. (Who the heck is still paying $2,000 to learn this stuff?)
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  • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
    Harlan:

    Reading the OP, and your follow-up posts in this thread, I experienced strong déjà vu.

    Just this minute, I realised why, and it involves an interview with a certain famous Mr. Cruise.

    In this interview, he lay claim to his ability to refute and dismantle what he was adamant of being a widely misconstrued perception of reality. A misconception so widely and damagingly propagated as to have been adopted by most of the western world's populace.

    Scary, huh?

    His argument was long and passionate, but it was not convincing, for it comprised largely of empty words, sensationalism, and the occasional burst of "logic" (madness) apparently so superior as to be incomprehensible by mere mortals.

    But that's okay: viewers, apparently, were not required to understand. They just had to feel his passion, and realise there was a problem - even if they couldn't put their finger on what it was.

    And the solution, when pitched, was - funnily enough (or not?) - not at all confusing or ambiguous: "Follow me; I am your saviour".

    Needless to say, this man lost a lot of credibility in recent years. It hasn't been good for his reputation.

    So all I can say, Harlan, is that your "solution" to this problem - one that apparently affects all of us, whether we know it or not - better be damn good, unique and convincing, and much better than that other guy's ... because if not - bye bye credibility!
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    You know... I must have my information about copy writing all backwards...

    I thought that effective pre-sell was supposed to build your credibility, not destroy it...

    But what would I know? I am from Oklahoma after all... I guess this is part of my backwards thinking....
    Signature
    Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author JustinAtlan
    Guru's suck

    ...but don't talk like a guru if you don't want to be like them!
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Justin,
      Guru's suck
      Okay, new guy... Define 'guru.'


      Paul
      Signature
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Okay, new guy... Define 'guru.'

        Anyone who makes more money than him?
        Signature
        Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Justin,Okay, new guy... Define 'guru.'


        Paul
        Crazy College Kid (Me) shows how his 30 min experiment made him go from $0-$428.58 in 10 days generating a Rapid Income Flow that keeps on growing! WATCH THE FREE VIDEO
        Can he explain "wanna be" guru too?
        Signature

        Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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      • Profile picture of the author Itachi
        In my opinion , the "hype" should'nt even exist , because if peoples provide crappy content , they would theorically suffer from : refunds, bad feed back , bad reviews , "scam" , loose credibility etc , so yea i think that content is the most important thing if you provide something useful , the community will reward you consequently . This should be the number 1 golden rule to be honest .
        Signature

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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by Itachi View Post

          In my opinion , the "hype" should'nt even exist , because if peoples provide crappy content , they would theorically suffer from : refunds, bad feed back , bad reviews , "scam" , loose credibility etc , so yea i think that content is the most important thing if you provide something useful , the community will reward you consequently . This should be the number 1 golden rule to be honest .

          I know you are new here, so a lot will be forgiven.

          The majority of people who buy products here prefer to buy the hype.

          If you want to drive sales, "tell them what they want to hear, and give them what they need."
          Signature
          Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
          Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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          • Profile picture of the author Itachi
            Originally Posted by tpw View Post

            I know you are new here, so a lot will be forgiven.
            you did'nt need to pinpoint it

            so this was all some kind of sarcasm , or mind control technique ? erm i hope im not making me look as a fool

            all the chips and pocorn nom nom made me laugh by the way

            and nice Paul Myers did you write it with lemon juice ? i had to warm the back of the paper to see it .. lol
            Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    I have degrees in Psychology and I know exactly what Harlan's doing here. He's playing you all (well, not ALL but many of you) like a fiddle. Yawn in his face and tell him he's an amateur. Seriously. A smart amateur, but seriously.... AMATEUR.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      I have degrees in Psychology and I know exactly what Harlan's doing here. He's playing you all (well, not ALL but many of you) like a fiddle. Yawn in his face and tell him he's an amateur. Seriously. A smart amateur, but seriously.... AMATEUR.

      Signature
      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Bill, how could you?
        Signature

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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      John,
      I have degrees in Psychology and I know exactly what Harlan's doing here.
      It doesn't take a degree in psychology. I don't have one, and I had an idea just from the thread title alone.


      Paul
      Signature
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      Seriously. A smart amateur, but seriously.... AMATEUR.
      I don't mean this is a bad way, but's it's kind of comical how Harlan has such a macho avatar yet his videos always look like he's channeling Richard Simmons.

      Quite the juxtaposition...

      ~Bill
      Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author Landon Walsh
    In the E-book i'm writing I talk alot about this very thing.

    And I agree...

    However....

    Out of all the stuff you just said...

    How does that explain your Sig?
    "It's Raining Money On Facebook! http://48hourmoneysecret
    Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting
    www.thehypnoticsecret.com http://overnight-copy
    Do NO work and make money online http://beachmillions."
    Its raining money of 'Favebook'? HAHA! Beach millions?
    Seriously...

    Are you trying to sell something here? I'm more likely to send money to my friend from Nigeria to get my millions from his late father's estate.
    Signature
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    • Profile picture of the author tj
      Originally Posted by Landon Walsh View Post

      In the E-book i'm writing I talk alot about this very thing.

      And I agree...

      However....

      Out of all the stuff you just said...

      How does that explain your Sig?


      Its raining money of 'Favebook'? HAHA! Beach millions?
      Seriously...

      Are you trying to sell something here? I'm more likely to send money to my friend from Nigeria to get my millions from his late father's estate.
      Is there any reason to repeat the argument regarding his signature again? It came up already and gives the thread an endless loop with the same arguments again and again.
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  • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
    I have this overwhelming desire to buy a widget-whacker.

    Weird.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Paul - If you are going to hide, you need a bigger tree.

      I just spent a few minutes of my life reading stuff by a person who has been educated beyond reason.
      Signature
      Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
      ***
      One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
      what it is instead of what you think it should be.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Dan,

    Close enough for my monitor.


    Paul
    Signature
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    Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Paul and Dan: You are both definitely smarter than a fifth grader.
    Signature
    Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    I've got it!

    It's the secret "No Work Method" to build an online business...

    Successful Marketer Reveals The Secret
    To Building An Online Business
    While Playing With Himself On Beaches Around The World

    You do none of the work but reap ALL of the profit! Just like George Brown. Who knew?
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  • Profile picture of the author raymond c
    it would be nice if this website was kept to the ethical marketers out there and stop posting the latest get rich quick link of their clickbank software which isnt worth squat mostly( except m samurai which i like) .please lose the adds here w f ?
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    • If you read only what harland has said, every single response is about trying to put up a credible front.

      Educated (I R Smart)

      Not like Gurus (I'm better)

      Go ahead and delete me if you want (I'm a tough guy)

      less than 10 letters (teaser for you)

      If he turns around and produces a word that actually silences the crowd here, he will have a sensational day of sales.

      If he doesn't, he may be kissing his credibility goodbye for life.

      I think we have been too quick to judge him. His goal here is to take the flak from the educated members of this site and target the less vocal majority of flailing noobies. Even if 100 professional marketers call him out he will still appear to be the savior for thousands more.

      Quite an interesting ploy if he thought it out this far.
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Yeah, well I have a two letter word for him - "BS"
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

      Yeah, well I have a two letter word for him - "BS"
      That's an abbreviation for a word, not a word itself.

      However, the word itself is 8 characters, which is under 10 characters. So, it does seem to meet his description.

      You may be on to something!
      Signature

      Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

      Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

        That's an abbreviation for a word, not a word itself.

        However, the word itself is 8 characters, which is under 10 characters. So, it does seem to meet his description.

        You may be on to something!
        So is it bullsh**es? With the "es" on the end?

        This is like charades but without the fun.

        Or the booze.
        Signature

        Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
    The one word that changes everything is...
    stop.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by Matt Maiden View Post

      The one word that changes everything is...
      stop.
      I thought the one word that changes everything was... change.
      Signature

      Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

      Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

        I thought the one word that changes everything was... change.

        Yes, and Hope...
        Signature
        Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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      • Profile picture of the author AnitaCross
        You guys have entirely too much time on your hands... lol

        -Anita
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        • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
          Originally Posted by AnitaCross View Post

          You guys have entirely too much time on your hands... lol

          -Anita
          That's because we are clueless and we already threw all of our money away
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          • Profile picture of the author R Hagel
            Originally Posted by Matt Maiden View Post

            That's because we are clueless and we already threw all of our money away
            I hope we get that one word soon. I've thrown so much money away that my internet connection is being cut off this afternoon.


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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
    Dan, you have to stop what you are doing before you can change.

    The problem with selling crap can be changed by stopping. Buying into too many gurus, stop. Tired of marketing the old fashioned way, stop.

    The new way to market is to stop marketing.

    Just my guess.

    If we all try hard enough to come up with the word, one of us is sure to stumble onto it and it can steal his thunder

    I'm typing up my WSO right now. "Matt's Amazing Thunder Buster"
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by Matt Maiden View Post

      Dan, you have to stop what you are doing before you can change.
      I see cars change lanes all the time without stopping first.

      Often without signaling either.
      Signature

      Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

      Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
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      • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
        Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

        I see cars change lanes all the time without stopping first.

        Often without signaling either.
        You already learned something from Matt's Amazing Thunder Buster.

        Can I get a testimonial now?
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
          Originally Posted by Matt Maiden View Post

          See, you already learned something from Matt's Amazing Thunder Buster.

          Can I get a testimonial now?
          I'm going to need a full review copy first, plus I also want to know who else is leaving a testimonial before deciding whether I want to throw my name in the hat.
          Signature

          Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

          Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
    why do we keep giving him free advertising by posting his sig links on the thread...
    Signature

    Canadian Expat Living in Medellin, Colombia

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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen View Post

      why do we keep giving him free advertising by posting his sig links on the thread...

      Because we are laughing at his expense and helping thinking people see through his bull****...
      Signature
      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Bill,
        Because we are laughing at his expense
        Other than the "Too few letters" thing, I am not laughing at this. Harlan is a nice guy and a very smart man. Doesn't mean I'm going to let this kind of thread pass by. I called him on it precisely because he knows better.

        But I am not laughing at his expense. And hey... I might just learn something. He's more than smart enough for that to be a possibility to keep in mind.


        Paul
        Signature
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        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          But I am not laughing at his expense. And hey... I might just learn something. He's more than smart enough for that to be a possibility to keep in mind.


          Paul
          I don't think anyone is laughing at his expense, I think everyone's voicing they're opinion at his assumption that we're mugs and he has a one word answer for our cure, for being mugs.
          Signature

          Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Bill,

          Because we are laughing at his expense
          Other than the "Too few letters" thing, I am not laughing at this. Harlan is a nice guy and a very smart man. Doesn't mean I'm going to let this kind of thread pass by. I called him on it precisely because he knows better.

          But I am not laughing at his expense. And hey... I might just learn something. He's more than smart enough for that to be a possibility to keep in mind.


          Paul

          In that case Paul, let me make one minor correction...

          Because we are laughing at our own wit in his thread

          Before this morning, I had never heard of him.

          And while you have suggested several times in the thread that he is a smart guy, I only have your word and this thread from which to make that judgment...

          I see where this might could have been a positive in an email campaign, because people would hear part one today and know to look for part two tomorrow.

          But in a forum marketing environment, it was a bonehead thing to do.

          How many posts will there be in this thread by tomorrow, when he finally decides to "enlighten us"?

          How much credibility will he have left by that time?

          How many people will he have alienated by the time he gets around to dropping his "enlightened word" on our heads?

          Like someone else in this thread stated, his "word" had better be "it", or he is going to lose credibility with strangers and fans alike...

          You know that I know that when you play a game like this in a forum, you need to allow the "tell" to surface quickly.

          He might just need a refresher course in Paul Hancox' Presell Mastery, because I honestly believe he has done himself more harm than good.

          The only saving grace I see that he is going to have going for him is that this thread will be nuked tomorrow.

          He may be a smart guy, but he ought to consider a refresher course in how to play this game.
          Signature
          Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
          Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen View Post

      why do we keep giving him free advertising by posting his sig links on the thread...
      I only see that once in close to the last 50 posts. I'd hardly say we "keep giving him free advertising".
      Signature
      Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
      Fast & Easy Content Creation
      ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt Bard
    Paul, have you thought about the two part thread precedent this might be setting?

    See Bill's (tpw) hidden message.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Matt,

      If I'd realized immediately that it was an article, I'd have just nuked it. I think there's enough useful potential to it as it stands now to leave it.


      Paul
      Signature
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    Ok seen a ton of these types of threads, before.

    Even though it's been said before I do think Harlan has a point.

    Perhaps it's time for the gurus to go sit on top of a high mountain in India and live out there days there. Then if anyone wants to learn how to become one of them he has to go climb that mountain for days and days in the snow before coming to the guru syndicate mountain retreat where they will all be with their helicopters, concubines and long beards. When asking how to make money online they will get either "be us, like, 20 years ago" or "do this thing that worked back in 2004" or "do this thing that I paid somebody else to put together a course for and then threw my name on it" etc. etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    I once purchased a product from Yanik Silver (Public Domain Riches, or something like that). Guess he ripped me off. I have since then purchased close to $50k worth of products and services with another $5k going out monthly. So clearly I am one of the suckers OP was blowing wind about. But what about the $100k I made in the six months after I purchased Yanik's product? I know for a fact I would never of made that money if it were not for what I learned from Yanik on that purchase. Does that mean I was still ripped off by him?

    In March of 2010 I purchased an ebook package from David Tan that taught me how to optimize a website for the search engines. Was I ripped off? According to the OP I was. But what about the fact that the info I learned from that purchase has enabled me to create a $30k a month seo service business. In fact we are on pace to pass the $40k a month mark this month. I wouldn't be where I am today if I had not purchased David Tan's wso. I know that for a fact.

    So I say all that to say this...

    Hey OP...thank you for not giving me your brand of advice earlier in my career. I feel I'd be broke if you had.
    Signature

    Free Training for SEO Providers in the United States - https://happyseoclients.com/happy-seo-clients-training/

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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

      I once purchased a product from Yanik Silver (Public Domain Riches, or something like that). Guess he ripped me off. I have since then purchased close to $50k worth of products and services with another $5k going out monthly. So clearly I am one of the suckers OP was blowing wind about. But what about the $100k I made in the six months after I purchased Yanik's product? I know for a fact I would never of made that money if it were not for what I learned from Yanik on that purchase. Does that mean I was still ripped off by him?

      In March of 2010 I purchased an ebook package from David Tan that taught me how to optimize a website for the search engines. Was I ripped off? According to the OP I was. But what about the fact that the info I learned from that purchase has enabled me to create a $30k a month seo service business. In fact we are on pace to pass the $40k a month mark this month. I wouldn't be where I am today if I had not purchased David Tan's wso. I know that for a fact.

      So I say all that to say this...

      Hey OP...thank you for not giving me your brand of advice earlier in my career. I feel I'd be broke if you had.
      I step away from the computer for a few hours, and I miss all the fun and mayhem!

      You're absolutely right, it's very dangerous to make blanket statements about Gurus or courses, for that matter. Just because they're expensive doesn't automatically relegate them to the trash. It is conditioned, automatic thinking like that which will keep you poor for a lifetime.

      It boils down to the applicability of a Guru/course to your particular business model and situation. Sometimes it'll fit, and sometimes it won't. I've seen many of the Gurus get better at qualifying their prospects in their pre-sales videos and emails/material, because let's face it - who wants to end up with a ton of refunds at the end of the day because you didn't clearly communicate who your product was for?

      Let's be a little more analytical when assessing products on the market, and let's not just make vague generalizations, because that will ultimately keep us from progressing forward.

      Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Here's a challenge for Harlan, and all the other people in this thread bashing "gurus"...

    Define "guru."

    Notice that I did NOT invite the folks who've avoided it. We know what those definitions will be. Teacher, person with advanced skills in a field, respected authority, etc. Just the folks who use the word like it's representative of some specific group of people, and in a negative way.


    Paul
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    Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    I thought it was a good post, though Internet marketing really hasn't died. In fact, the number of ecommerce websites and sales made online continues to grow every year.

    But I agree with the implicit point that people come here, and in other places, trying to learn how to make money with this thing called "Internet marketing" - and they're simply getting ripped by fraudsters.

    Those who actually make money online, selling anything from apples to zippo lighters, and who actually take the time to teach people how to create a profitable online business, are drowned out by the junk making ridiculous claims.

    On the other hand, many here would rather buy junk and the promises of quick and easy money, rather than actually spending time learning and creating something of value that can make them money.

    And they will stay poor, and clueless, as a result.

    Dr. Kindsvater

    P.S. - On that note, I'll join in hoping there is something of value that will ultimately be provided here.
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    • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
      Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

      I thought it was a good post, though Internet marketing really hasn't died. In fact, the number of ecommerce websites and sales made online continues to grow every year.

      But I agree with the implicit point that people come here, and in other places, trying to learn how to make money with this thing called "Internet marketing" - and they're simply getting ripped by fraudsters.

      Those who actually make money online, selling anything from apples to zippo lighters, and who actually take the time to teach people how to create a profitable online business, are drowned out by the junk making ridiculous claims.

      On the other hand, many here would rather buy junk and the promises of quick and easy money, rather than actually spending time learning and creating something of value that can make them money.

      And they will stay poor, and clueless, as a result.

      Dr. Kindsvater

      P.S. - On that note, I'll join in hoping there is something of value that will ultimately be provided here.
      Abso-freaking-lutely Counselor!
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  • Profile picture of the author Furyx2
    less competition for me...yay
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Harlan,
      They say when the student is willing, the teacher appears.

      When the student is unwilling, the teacher disappears.
      I expected better from you, sir. You know full well what that response sounds like.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Harlan,I expected better from you, sir. You know full well what that response sounds like.


        Paul
        I didn't.

        He seems to make posts like these from time to time just to stir the pot and then blames the forum members for not bowing to him.

        And yes, he is a smart guy but it's typical Harlan WF posts.

        Garrie
        Signature
        Screw You, NameCheap!
        $1 Off NameSilo Domain Coupons:

        SAVEABUCKDOMAINS & DOLLARDOMAINSAVINGS
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      • Profile picture of the author Sam England
        I'll take door #5 for ONE MILLION please...

        No way I'm gonna read every word and every comment on this thread?

        I'll let you all tackle that for now!

        Peace Out...

        ~Sam
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  • Profile picture of the author Greg Adams
    Internet marketing hasn't died... it just continues to evolve! Just like the wild west the internet marketing community has its robber barrons, hired guns and thieves but as it continues to mature the IM community is learning what it takes to get along with your neighbor in a civilized way online. This will continue to lead to greater prosperity for all.

    Greg
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Harlan -Internet marketing died but the gurus didn't tell you that.

      They've inflated a corpse and put in in the passengers seat so they can ride in the fast lane while everyone else is stuck in traffic.

      From time to time they wave its hand to convince you it's alive.

      Let me prove it.
      And then...

      We spent the afternoon filming him to share a video of his teaching about email marketing.

      Single emails have brought in more than a million dollars without a product launch and without affiliates.
      Isn't that a bit of a contradiction?

      Are we or are we not, mean't to buy this stuff?

      Or is that the corpse waving it's hand to say it's alive?

      Sorry, I'm just using your own words.

      ...but no doubt this is just the start, I am merely ignorant.
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  • Profile picture of the author Diane S
    Originally Posted by Harlan View Post


    Great way to make money off someone else. Bad way to run a business.

    None of these guys is looking to the future.
    Unfortunately there will always be newbies who will get taken advantage of. It may be an unethical way to run a business, but you cannot deny the business model makes money for the owners.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Garrie,

    This wasn't written just for here, though. It was a slightly edited version of an email he sent to his subscribers this morning.

    It'll be interesting to see the next edition...


    Paul
    Signature
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    Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Garrie,

      This wasn't written just for here, though. It was a slightly edited version of an email he sent to his subscribers this morning.

      It'll be interesting to see the next edition...


      Paul
      I think I'm missing the point of this thread entirely.

      Bed time methinks.

      Good night all.
      Signature

      Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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    • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Garrie,

      This wasn't written just for here, though. It was a slightly edited version of an email he sent to his subscribers this morning.

      It'll be interesting to see the next edition...


      Paul
      I understand that but because of how people replied he is taking his toys and going home. That'll show us. When he said the word was to short to post, I knew then what he was doing.

      I'm really surprised that you let it go this far.

      -g
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      • Profile picture of the author AnitaCross
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

        They say when the student is willing, the teacher appears.

        When the student is unwilling, the teacher disappears.
        Harlan,I expected better from you, sir. You know full well what that response sounds like.


        Paul
        It would appear that Paul is too much of a gentleman to say what so many of us are thinking.

        What a cop-out!

        -Anita
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      In the last thread I posted in started by the eminent Herr Professor Doktor Kilstein, I was told that my response to everything was a personal attack, and he lamented that he couldn't filter me out. I gave him directions.

      This is an experiment to see if he did, indeed, ignore me.

      Dr. Kilstein, without doubt you are a very intelligent man and a hell of a wordsmith. Like many other very intelligent men who believe they have mastered their chosen craft, you have a way of sounding incredibly arrogant when taking to us mere mortals.

      Therefore, both other peoples' responses to you, and yours to them, have been quite predictable.

      Originally Posted by JMichaelZ View Post

      Like Mr McGuire says to Benjamin:

      I want to say one word to you. Just one word.

      Plastics.

      Wow, if I hadn't before, now I have really dated myself.
      Not only have you dated yourself, my friend, but every one of us old farts that got the reference without having to Google it...
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        In the last thread I posted in started by the eminent Herr Professor Doktor Kilstein, I was told that my response to everything was a personal attack, and he lamented that he couldn't filter me out. I gave him directions.

        This is an experiment to see if he did, indeed, ignore me.

        Dr. Kilstein, without doubt you are a very intelligent man and a hell of a wordsmith. Like many other very intelligent men who believe they have mastered their chosen craft, you have a way of sounding incredibly arrogant when taking to us mere mortals.

        Therefore, both other peoples' responses to you, and yours to them, have been quite predictable.



        Not only have you dated yourself, my friend, but every one of us old farts that got the reference without having to Google it...
        Here's to you . . .
        Signature


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  • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
    The masses flocked to the thread to kick some tyres and then they slowly left, one by one, as the tyre seller failed to show....
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by Steadyon View Post

      The masses flocked to the thread to kick some tyres and then they slowly left, one by one, as the tyre seller failed to show....
      But still more flocked by, in the hope of fresh tyres. :p
      Signature

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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by raymond c View Post

        please lose the adds here w f ?
        Here's how to do that ... YOU buy all the available ad space, and then don't put anything in it. You get what you want, and the owner doesn't lose income. Fair deal.

        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Here's a challenge for Harlan, and all the other people in this thread bashing "gurus"...

        Define "guru."

        Notice that I did NOT invite the folks who've avoided it. We know what those definitions will be. Teacher, person with advanced skills in a field, respected authority, etc. Just the folks who use the word like it's representative of some specific group of people, and in a negative way.


        Paul
        Noticed you haven't gotten any takers, but it quieted the "guru" bashing, which I'm guessing was your purpose. Or at least one of them.

        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        But I agree with the implicit point that people come here, and in other places, trying to learn how to make money with this thing called "Internet marketing" - and they're simply getting ripped by fraudsters.
        Then they are fraudsters, not true marketers, no? Shouldn't the rant be against the fraudsters then, and not internet marketers or internet marketing as a whole?

        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

        They say when the student is willing, the teacher appears.

        When the student is unwilling, the teacher disappears.
        Massive fail.
        Signature

        Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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  • I enjoyed the humor, but this thread should really be deleted and the OP warned for baiting like this. He just re-posted something from his email list and used it for more publicity. If I were to do something like this with one of my products I wouldn't have been surprised if I got banned.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cosmo Demopoulos
    Can we get to the end of the thread yet?
    I'm tired and starting to yawn . . .
    Signature
    Wine - bubbles and more
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      I just came back from having lunch with one of the most influential people in the world. This man literally could start wars.

      We talked about life and how being president was stressful. He just can't get enough time to practice his jump shots.

      Anyway, I can't believe how this thread turned out. I tried to teach you people and this is how I am treated?

      How dare you.

      It just shows that you are not ready for my intellect.

      I will just go back to counting my millions on the beach and making real friends on facebook.

      Hopefully, people will start posting my product links to show I am a hypocrite since my traffic isn't very good lately.

      I am going to play some xbox with Kim-Jong and laugh at how stupid you all are.

      Thanks for the two sales. haha suckers....
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        [DELETED]
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          Here at Harmonica school, we teach the importance of saying Thanks instead of clicking the button.

          So thank you Thomas.
          I clicked it for you, Bill. So, the thanks under with my name on it actually comes from Bill.

          You know, I'm remembering my school days. Sometimes, the students were unwilling, but the teacher made them interested. And, sometimes, the students were willing but the teacher just sucked.
          Signature

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          Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
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          • Profile picture of the author ExRat
            Hi,

            It's weird how things go around.

            The stuff I used to get bashed for posting is now being recycled as advertising for those who bashed.

            When the student is unwilling, the teacher disappears.
            When the teacher loses the respect and the ear of his students before the lesson has even begun, he is not worthy of calling himself a nursery assistant, let alone a teacher.

            By the way, can you clear up all of the paper airplanes before you disappear Harlan, because all of the students have f***ed off.
            Signature


            Roger Davis

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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Ya know, the sad thing about this is the number of people who missed the points being made and turned it into purely personal attacks on Harlan. If you really want to cut down on this stuff, attack the points, not the person. Or at least include the points.

              I don't like this kind of thread myself, obviously, but it's more about how it was said than what the original point might have been.

              For the folks who said he was right.... Yeah. Of course. In some instances, he certainly is. The problem is the overly broad generalization (stated almost as an absolute), and the number of emotional triggers he tried to pull in one post. When I said this was propaganda, I meant it in the literal sense. This was an attempt to move a crowd toward a logically unsound position using highly charged words and lots of hidden assumptions.

              Nasty stuff, all the way around. And one of the most educational threads in a while, for folks who want to understand forum dynamics. It's a classic.


              Paul
              Signature
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              Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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              • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Ya know, the sad thing about this is the number of people who missed the points being made and turned it into purely personal attacks on Harlan. If you really want to cut down on this stuff, attack the points, not the person. Or at least include the points.
                Paul
                Paul,

                With respect, I think you missed the point.

                If you look at the people who attacked Harlan personally, you will see they are generally people who have consistently been against the kind of stuff Harlan was complaining about (by attacking it or recommending good practice).

                Harlan reminded me of the Egyptian police force - they are now whinging

                "Please let us join the revolution. We were victims of Mubarak, too, you know. We didn't want to do all that torture stuff and live in nice houses and get preferential treatment."

                Remember the trend a couple of years ago - "become sincere and people will trust you and like you (and make you rich)"?

                It's successor seems to be "mea culpa" without the "mea".

                Just because the news is good doesn't mean you shouldn't shoot the bad messenger.


                Martin
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                • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                  Hi Paul,

                  Ya know, the sad thing about this is the number of people who missed the points being made and turned it into purely personal attacks on Harlan. If you really want to cut down on this stuff, attack the points, not the person. Or at least include the points.
                  I agree with your point in general for most other threads/posters, but possibly every thread I've seen Harlan post or participate in, if anyone attacks the points he arrogantly attacks them for daring to attack his points. I'd find you some examples, but most have probably been deleted because of how they turned out.

                  The problem is the overly broad generalization (stated almost as an absolute), and the number of emotional triggers he tried to pull in one post.
                  Personally I see the problem as the fact that this whole thread is a classic waste of pixels that generally lowers the tone.

                  I'm surprised that anyone thought that anything useful would come from this regardless of what the 'word' is, therefore it's not difficult to look into the future and wager that in retrospect this will look like a hypocritical, nauseating, attention-grabbing pre-launch or something.

                  It's got almost everything that sucks - 'the death of', a withheld secret that will save us all (ignoring that most of us don't need saving), guru-bashing, reformed guru repenting, a not-so-subtle swipe at 'the clickbank gang' coming from 'the syndicate' (again), sig file hypocrisy and the icing on the cake - a title that insults anyone who has bought an IM product - almost everyone here.

                  In my opinion, the sad thing about this is that people have still got the gall to come here and belittle the group in this way. You dislike guru-bashing, but are willing to tolerate those who blatantly inspire it here.

                  Mal can't possibly be correct with his guess at 'the word' in post #181 otherwise this -

                  The solution is so new to the Warrior Forum that there isn't even a single post on it.

                  I venture to say not a single person on this forum has heard of the solution.
                  ...is a sick joke. In fact, whatever 'the word' is, the above quote is still a sick joke and generally insulting to boot.
                  Signature


                  Roger Davis

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  • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
    Shouldn't the title of this thread now be changed from:

    "How The Clueless Throw Away Their Money"

    to

    "How The Clueless Throw Away Their Apparent Reputation"

    He taught us perfectly how to do this.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    I just had dinner with "the most interesting man in the world" while downing some Dos Equis. Top that.

    RoD
    Signature
    "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
    - Jim Rohn
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

      I just had dinner with "the most interesting man in the world" while downing some Dos Equis. Top that.

      RoD

      Thanks Rod. I had a great time at dinner.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimG
      Originally Posted by Rod Cortez View Post

      I just had dinner with "the most interesting man in the world" while downing some Dos Equis. Top that.

      RoD
      Stay thirsty my friend!!

      Tim
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Steven,

    Have I told you today?


    Paul

    PS: See? I knew you were going to do that...
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    Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Joel Comm gives you the word (2 days ago) - Standards for Ethical Internet Marketing
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    What sticks in my craw is why HK is allowed to consistently spam the board. Why? Because supposedly he's a "nice guy" and "intelligent". Well so am I, as it happens, but I can't get away with this stuff (although I must admit you give me a lot of leeway). But really - we've heard all this before - from the same mountain top. Gets boring after awhile and then turns into a fizzer. Harlan needs to "put up or shut up" IMO.
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  • Profile picture of the author daleron
    What is list incest?
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    • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
      Banned
      Originally Posted by daleron View Post

      What is list incest?
      Cross-promoting each other products and launches. "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours". Bit like a cartel.
      trust: a consortium of independent organizations formed to limit competition by controlling the production and distribution of a product or service; "they set up the trust in the hope of gaining a monopoly"
      wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
      George Brown says to his JV partners in an email
      Thank you for all your support so far, I could NOT have done that without any of you, and will be hitting EVERYONE back very hard.
      Voila.

      Joel Comm said the other day in a blog post -
      11) Cross-promotions and backscratching I regularly receive emails from marketers inviting me to promote their product. Invariably, I am promised a promotion from them in return. I don't even reply to these invitations any more. If you approach me in this way, your message is instantly deleted. I want to work with others based on the value they bring and not because we each have a list that we can use to make money off each other. I can't even begin to count how much money I have left on the table by being protective of those on my list. That doesn't mean I won't consider endorsing another product. It just means I am more interested in the value of your product than being asked to promote so that you will promote me. It's an extremely shallow and short-sighted approach.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nisip
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

    You are getting screwed.

    Internet marketing died but the gurus didn't tell you that.

    Surprise surprise as Gomer Pyle used to say. It reopens. The people buy it.
    The product doesn't live up to the hype. Your complaints go to a help desk and you are out the money.

    Here's the best part: two weeks later, the guru GIVES away the product you just bought as a bonus for the latest launch.

    Seriously - we are a bunch of dumb ass suckers to take this crap.

    None of these guys remotely has a "real business." They are just in the Internet biz-op business and use their little friends for some list incest.

    The only ones getting rich are THEM.

    They are teaching the same model that they learned in 2004.

    None of the stuff they are teaching works today.

    If you really know internet marketing, most of their stuff went out with the first Google Slap. But they keep teaching it as if it's the only dance in town.

    Let's look at Clickbank.

    Just about every week a new Internet Marketing program launches on Clickbank. It promises to make you a million dollars in the next 6 weeks without doing anything.

    These sales letters are full of lies. Clickbank knows it and doesn't do anything about it.
    Like the "16 year old girl" product that came out this year. It had FRAUD written in capital letters written all over the page.

    I PERSONALLY spoke to a Vice President of Clickbank and complained about the Fraud and they played dumb. I said "Dude, it's your top selling product right now. Stop playing dumb."

    But hope springs eternal right. Maybe this could work.

    And if you buy now it's just $1997.

    The truest words I read in a long time.

    Clickbank is a FRAUD.

    Internet marketing was killed because there are millions of people doing it, so the average profit from it per person is like... 50$ per month now...
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by Nisip View Post

      The truest words I read in a long time.

      Clickbank is a FRAUD.

      Internet marketing was killed because there are millions of people doing it, so the average profit from it per person is like... 50$ per month now...
      Clickbank is payment processor. They're no more a fraud than Paypal or another other third party payment processor.

      Internet marketing is alive and well. If you're not experiencing success, that's about you and your situation. Your situation doesn't apply to everyone. If you're going to succeed at IM, you need to lose the illusions.
      Signature

      Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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      • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        Clickbank is payment processor. They're no more a fraud than Paypal or another other third party payment processor.

        Internet marketing is alive and well. If you're not experiencing success, that's about you and your situation. Your situation doesn't apply to everyone. If you're going to succeed at IM, you need to lose the illusions.
        Not quite true. CB is a wholesaler, if anything. From their site -
        At the time of purchase by a customer, ClickBank purchases the Product from the applicable Vendor at a wholesale price, which can vary by Product type, price, and currency, and resells the Product to the customer.
        So that being the case I would argue they have a "duty of care" to their customer and they are not just a payment processor. Harlan is right on that point. But makes me wonder - if he were at a Clickbank seminar...does this mean his products are up there too? Must check.

        Update: beachmillions isn't. haven't checked the others.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay Zee
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Wow, this thread sucks.
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    • Profile picture of the author J Bold
      Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

      Wow, this thread sucks.
      ya it does, doesn't it?

      Really I think there's just not much value to the forum here beyond a pissing contest and people getting offended and jumping all over each other.

      Not much to see here for business, really, just a bunch of useless "discussion" but I suppose it is a forum...
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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by redicelander View Post

        ya it does, doesn't it?

        Really I think there's just not much value to the forum here beyond a pissing contest and people getting offended and jumping all over each other.

        Not much to see here for business, really, just a bunch of useless "discussion" but I suppose it is a forum...
        And your contribution was supposed to help?
        Signature

        nothing to see here.

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      • Profile picture of the author paulie888
        Originally Posted by redicelander View Post

        ya it does, doesn't it?

        Really I think there's just not much value to the forum here beyond a pissing contest and people getting offended and jumping all over each other.

        Not much to see here for business, really, just a bunch of useless "discussion" but I suppose it is a forum...
        These threads never fail to surface with some regularity, and you can expect at least 2 or 3 of these every month.

        It just devolves into name-calling and insults, and ends up just being a waste of time and effort. There's really nothing constructive in this thread at all. I'm pretty sure it won't be long until Paul locks this up.
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        • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
          Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

          These threads never fail to surface with some regularity, and you can expect at least 2 or 3 of these every month.

          It just devolves into name-calling and insults, and ends up just being a waste of time and effort. There's really nothing constructive in this thread at all. I'm pretty sure it won't be long until Paul locks this up.
          I disagree.

          I think there are some VERY valuable lessons in this thread for people who want them.
          Signature

          nothing to see here.

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        • Profile picture of the author Shaun OReilly
          Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

          There's really nothing constructive in this thread at all. I'm pretty sure it won't be long until
          Look a little deeper.

          If a thread generates a lot of attention on this forum,
          then as a marketer I find that extremely interesting.

          In marketing, the good old A.I.D.A. formula rules.
          (Attention, Interest, Desire and Action)

          Like it or not, this thread has grabbed a lot of people's
          attention and pretty quickly too. It's one of the most
          viewed threads currently on page one of the main
          discussion forum.

          I find that curiously interesting and instructive.

          There's lessons here on how to get attention, how to
          keep it and what not to do once you've got it.

          Dedicated to mutual success,

          Shaun
          Signature

          .

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          • Profile picture of the author Sandor Verebi
            Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

            Look a little deeper.

            If a thread generates a lot of attention on this forum,
            then as a marketer I find that extremely interesting.

            In marketing, the good old A.I.D.A. formula rules.
            (Attention, Interest, Desire and Action)

            Like it or not, this thread has grabbed a lot of people's
            attention and pretty quickly too. It's one of the most
            viewed threads currently on page one of the main
            discussion forum.

            I find that curiously interesting and instructive.

            There's lessons here on how to get attention, how to
            keep it and what not to do once you've got it.

            Dedicated to mutual success,

            Shaun
            Shaun,

            You are right, absolutely. The OP is smart enough in using the AIDA technique. And the result (this thread has 5 pages now) proves him. I don't know what's going to end: success or failure of his credibility?

            Time will tell.

            Best,

            Sandor
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            • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
              Originally Posted by Sandor Verebi View Post

              Shaun,

              You are right, absolutely. The OP is smart enough in using the AIDA technique. And the result (this thread has 5 pages now) proves him. I don't know what's going to end: success or failure of his credibility?

              Best,

              Sandor
              True Sandor and now we know there's a webinar going down it'll be good to see if he says how great he is, by putting up one post and in 24 hours it was viewed over 4,300 times and there were well over 200 comments...

              The question is, will he say he only got 4 thanks and ridiculed in the process?

              Probably not.
              Signature

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              • Profile picture of the author Sandor Verebi
                Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                ...
                The question is, will he say he only got 4 thanks and ridiculed in the process?

                Probably not.
                Richard,

                Right, I also think that he'll not do that. But... we don't know what kind of audience he has at that webinar.

                As we know, all the old joke will be a new to every newborns.

                Cheers,

                Sandor
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            • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
              I am htiking we need to get out more and see some of the world outside of marketing and how marketing is a microcosm of the world as a whole.

              Here is a quote from Marshall McLuhan:

              "Hence in Understanding Media, McLuhan describes the "content" of a medium as a juicy piece of meat carried by the burglar to distract the watchdog of the mind.

              This means that people tend to focus on the obvious, which is the content, to provide us valuable information, but in the process, we largely miss the structural changes in our affairs that are introduced subtly, or over long periods of time.

              As society's values, norms and ways of doing things change because of the technology, it is then we realize the social implications of the medium. These range from cultural or religious issues and historical precedents, through interplay with existing conditions, to the secondary or tertiary effects in a cascade of interactions that we are not aware of."


              This was written back in the 60's when the rate of perceived time pasage was still measured using the pardigm of the Industrial Age. Now we use a much faster perceived rate of time passage. And a thread that lasts for an entire day in a forum is more or less the equivalent of a year or more.

              This thread is a primo example of distributed social marketing in action.
              Signature


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        • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
          Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

          These threads never fail to surface with some regularity, and you can expect at least 2 or 3 of these every month.

          It just devolves into name-calling and insults, and ends up just being a waste of time and effort. There's really nothing constructive in this thread at all. I'm pretty sure it won't be long until Paul locks this up.
          Luckily they don't give Paul Chow a lock button

          Just a thought guys... Whenever a thread goes like this, towards page 3-5 people just start discussing the fact that this is a thread, instead of the actual topic of the thread.

          Anyways, just an interesting transition.

          Good morning thread friends

          Caleb
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          Canadian Expat Living in Medellin, Colombia

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          • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
            Guru bashing, AKA "ego" bashing or celebrity bashing works.

            A lot of "guru's" use it.

            Obviously the target market will not be the few who post to this thread, but hundreds - or thousands? who feel the same as the OP, and just read.

            Not making much money, tired and fed up of the whole "biz-op" scene, and even more so by those who do make a few bucks - and now claim do know everything.

            Not saying Harlan has the "answer" - or he don't - playing to people's emotions is the point here.
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  • Profile picture of the author niffybranco
    I do not agree that internet marketing is dead. Internet marketing is MARKETING plain and simple the internet is just a tool used to implement it. Although there are methods that are unique to the internet the core principles of marketing are the same across all platforms. To succeed in internet marketing you need to understand the core principles.
    1. Proper Market Research (What do people want)
    2. Develop and sell products and services to customers (give people what they want)
    3. Advertise to further enhance sales.
    4. Build Strong customer relationships and create value for their customers and for themselves.
    Now do a lot of marketers use these principles when selling in their different niche markets? Of course they do.

    When marketing in the make money online niche the customer is an entirely different beast 90% of people that enter the gates of the make money online enterprise went to bed and fell down the rabbit hole. They come in with a dream they want to make money FAST, and this is evident even on the warrior forum. How often do we see posts like.

    I Need to make $5000 in 3 days
    I am a newbie how do i make $xxxxxxxx today.

    Ant these are from newbies on the warrior forum where there is so much free information that can make you money if you put in a little WORK.

    All some smart marketers are doing is packaging the same principles that work and making it look like a BIG SHINY RED PLAY BUTTON that offers all the solutions. Is this right ? Well it depends on what side of the fence you are standing.

    A marketer complaining about rehashed stuff just sounds funny to me. The principles of marketing have remained the same ever since selling commodities as opposed to creating them became a means of earning for some people. The methods and ideas being sold in the make money online niche all have the same principle.

    find or create a product
    sell the product
    keep customers happy

    The differences between all these courses is in their methods not their principles.

    Schools and universities all over the world teach rehashed stuff, It's the same principles of physics that are taught in a $40,000 dollar a year university that are being taught in a $9,000 a yr university.
    Do you see people standing in front of these institutions chanting and carrying placards with No To Rehashed content boldly written on them.
    Of course there are perks to going to an expensive university, same as there are perks in paying for an expensive IM course like getting to possibly know and hang out with top marketers.

    Does everybody that goes on to buy these expensive course go on to make money ? Hell no , same way not everybody that goes to an expensive university will become successful in life in fact people drop out. Same way a lot of people never follow through with a system they bought before chasing the next BIG RED SHINY BUTTON that comes along.
    But those that are determined to stick through the learning process and go on to implement the methods the learnt usually end up being successful.

    Even i had this problem i bought this course and that course when i started, quick to chase the next miracle pill. Was it the fault of the marketers for promising me what worked if i stuck to it ? NO. It was my fast profits with little work mentality. Just like a lot of people do i blamed every couse out there and not myself.

    After 8 months of hopping around like a frog on steroids I decided to stick to a method and make it work. Guess what i made just about $600 the following month. i worked the method and improved my marketing skills as i went along , now i have a business that not only sustains me but is growing from strength to strength.
    Every now and then I rummage through my hard drive and go through course that I paid for but never implemented, guess what they would have worked if i stuck to them? How do i know ? Cause i am implementing those same PRINCIPLES in my business today.

    Don't get me wrong there are some extremely unethical marketers out there, same as there are unethical traders in the stock market and you will find shady characters in almost every sector of society.

    But coming out and calling every successful internet marketer A.K.A a GURU a liar is wrong. If you have truly tested a program or know of people who have tested a program where the content is total B.S then let us know of such specific programs and also report such SCAMS to the proper authorities.

    Starting a thread like this will only hurt the struggling newbie who is so close to making his first dollar. We all know the feeling that first dollar gives , when you SCREAM YEAH I can do this S**T. That for most people is the point that proves to them they can be an internet marketer. A newbie, who is just a week away from banking his first dollar reads this thread and goes yeah this stuff don't work and gives up do you honestly think you just helped him ?
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  • Profile picture of the author Gene Pimentel
    My head hurts.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
    The word is:

    "strategery".
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    So it's a webinar HK is flogging. Just got the email. All this to beat up a webinar. Sorry - the word is "spamming".
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      How could that be? Spamming - on a forum?

      By someone so brilliant and talented who knows important people? Surely you jest. Pronouncements have been made.

      There is deeper meaning, hidden messages, a "word" yet to be revealed ....and some claim they can't wait to see the second list email posted here. Some of the people all of the time....and the rest of us are too ignorant to see the underlying importance. Righto. Got it.

      It's true people stop at train wrecks and auto accident sites - but it's to view the carnage, not to praise the drivers.

      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author Kierkegaard
    In all things there is what APPEARS to be going on and what is ACTUALLY going on.

    This is a given in ALL areas.

    The OP starts a posts to PROMOTE something he's got going on.

    It is a very EASY thread to add a comment to (unlike one asking for technical information for example).

    So lot's of people DO make an answer SO as a way of getting their SIGS noticed.

    The thread gets BIGGER and other people feel themselves SUCKED in.

    GOOD for the OP who gets his name mentioned.

    Good OPPORTUNITY for new posts displaying those SIGS again.

    There has be a lot talk of losing credibility. This is nonsense. What you need to be is NOTICED so that you become someone people have HEARD of.

    Most of the posts written by the less FAMOUS or INFAMOUS members will be skim read or not even read at all. (like this one)

    There are basically 3 groups of people on this forum:

    NEWBIES
    |
    PEOPLE IN BETWEEN
    |
    PEOPLE LOOKING TO MAKE MONEY FROM NEWBIES

    and to answer the question about defining GURUs...

    A guru (or teacher) is someone who offers themselves up to the forum as a candidate for appreciate as a guru.

    Spotting them, as others have already pointed out, is easy as spotting a duck. If it looks like one and quacks like one it is one. However, as we know from nature, looking like a animal and sounding like an animal never necessarily means that you are indeed that animal.
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  • Profile picture of the author kevinfar
    Great great stuff ! People are still not willing to do the work and want the push button solution - which doesn't exist - and will gladly try and buy this solution even if all of their bs sensors are on a high.

    As for the clickbank argument, it's a pity and a shame. Nowadays, there are so many 37 dollar products that promise the world and deliver nothing, it's unbelievable.

    Thanks for the post!

    Kevin
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  • Profile picture of the author KatieWilliams
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author nando1125
      This thread is still alive? I thought it died out yesterday when I couldnt find it

      Stop feeding the troll :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
        Originally Posted by Shaun OReilly View Post

        Like it or not, this thread has grabbed a lot of people's attention and pretty quickly too. It's one of the most viewed threads currently on page one of the main discussion forum.

        I find that curiously interesting and instructive.
        Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen View Post

        Whenever a thread goes like this, towards page 3-5 people just start discussing the fact that this is a thread, instead of the actual topic of the thread.
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        It's true people stop at train wrecks and auto accident sites - but it's to view the carnage, not to praise the drivers.
        It is the train wreck syndrom in action mostly with threads like this.

        But I do have a feeling I know what the "Word" is.

        It's "Engineer".

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  • Profile picture of the author OnlineMasterMind
    Harlan,

    You're right.

    I am getting screwed.

    Glad I found this thread... I just bought beach millions.

    Thank you for saving me.

    Goodbye.
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    • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
      Before anyone completely dismisses this thread as worthless.

      Paul Myers was right about one thing, you can learn something here.
      I cannot speak for him or any of the others, as far as what he means by that.


      My take is...
      This is a very good example of hype and presell.
      I have already given kudos to Harlan for that

      What is irking me, is the hypocrisy and the inflated ego it takes to come here and rail against the very thing and products that are in his sig.

      For those that don't know, this is one in a series of these threads.


      NOW

      It just reminds me of what John Kruk ( a major league baseball player and notorious comedian, who lost a testicle to cancer) told the Phillies.

      "If your not gonna let me play...
      I'm just going to take my ball and go home"
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  • Profile picture of the author ~Davor Debrecin~
    Signature
    MY CV ❱❱❱ 12+ yrs exp, 7-fig revenues, 40 employees.. 39 actually, someone just left the company, f**k!
    I like to innovate stuff and babble IM stuff into a camera:
    I do this on the side, will try to sell you something, be sure of it!
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    • Profile picture of the author Collette
      Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

      Wow, this thread sucks.
      Originally Posted by redicelander View Post

      ya it does, doesn't it?

      ...Not much to see here for business, really, just a bunch of useless "discussion" ...
      Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

      ...There's really nothing constructive in this thread at all. I'm pretty sure it won't be long until Paul locks this up.
      On the contrary, there are at least two lessons to be learned here: How to gather a crowd, and how to burn a bridge.

      Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

      ...the teacher disappears.
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Harlan,I expected better from you, sir. You know full well what that response sounds like.

      Paul
      Yup. It sounds like a bridge burning.
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  • Profile picture of the author MarthaD.
    WOW!!! This is quiet a thread! I do find some validity to the original post but... it is ironic to condemn with one hand while promoting with the other.
    I've lost count of all the "magic bullets", the time, the money I've spent, etc. jumping from one thing to another. But... in all fairness, some, maybe even many, of them probably are very good and have worked for some. The main component though, for anything, is one's self - one does have to take action and I must admit, I haven't always done so - that's not the fault of the program, course or whatever it is I purchased.
    I personally do not believe that internet marketing is dead - far from it, more and more people are trying their hand at it all the time. It is still evolving and I believe the difficulty of making a decent income from it is in many ways a positive sign. It forces one to deliver a truly quality product, market in a more verifiable way, and cut all the BS hype. Unfortunately, the BS hype does sell and I guess many of us still need to "kiss a lot of frogs" before finding that "prince"!!!
    I've definitely become pretty jaded myself after "kissing so many frogs" but I'm not giving up! I have found something that I am now working on and truly motivates and excites me enough to actually "take action" - this is the key for me, something that really captures my interest enough to work through the hurdles and the BS. I'm no longer expecting it to be a "magic bullet" - so maybe all those "frogs" have been of benefit to me afterall! I must admit, while they didn't work for me as I expected, I did learn quite a bit from each and every one that I hope I'll now be able to piece together into a true "prince charming"!!!!!!
    To sum it up, you can "kill" all the gurus you want but the saying "let the buyer beware" still applies! We all still need to take responsibility, educate ourselves, and be more discerning in our decisions.
    That's my 2 cents anyway!
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    MarthaD.

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  • Profile picture of the author WebPen
    Wow, I can't believe this thread is still going on from yesterday....

    Guess Harlan really does know how to stir the pot a bit.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by AYoungMillionaire View Post

      Guess Harlan really does know how to stir the pot a bit.
      Anyone can stir the pot.

      Whether or not what's in the pot turns out to be edible remains to be seen.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sandor Verebi
        Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

        Anyone can stir the pot.

        Whether or not what's in the pot turns out to be edible remains to be seen.
        Yeah Dan, the proof of the pudding is in the eating - as we know.

        Cheers,

        Sandor
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    • Profile picture of the author Eric Lorence
      Originally Posted by AYoungMillionaire View Post

      Wow, I can't believe this thread is still going on from yesterday....

      Guess Harlan really does know how to stir the pot a bit.

      Just post something controversial, watch all the vets chime in and keep the thread on the first page for a few days - not rocket science.

      How many people read past the first few posts on a forum? or past the first page? Kind of like searching past the first page of search results.

      Not many on this thread will be a customer - but they are not the target market ... how many others will read the OP and and click the sig out of curiosity?

      Short attention span + missing the irony of the sig = perfect customer.

      Laughing all the way to the bank ....
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      • Profile picture of the author Collette
        Originally Posted by Eric Lorence View Post

        ...
        Short attention span + missing the irony of the sig = perfect customer.

        Laughing all the way to the bank ....
        i.e. The clueless and their money are parted?

        Duly noted.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nathy Curiel
    Sometimes I feel there is no etchic in IM.
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  • Profile picture of the author neodarth
    Is quite a long thread!
    got nothing to add...

    but I just wanted to be part of this

    lol
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by neodarth View Post

      Is quite a long thread!
      got nothing to add...

      but I just wanted to be part of this
      lol ... history in the making, eh?
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    Let's show Harlan up and each of us guess three times what we think the word is. Let's show him we're not a bunch of dummies. I pick: leprechaun, hemophilia and larynx.

    Was I right Harlan?
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    • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
      Not for the first two at least.

      It has to be less than 10 charachters. That is why he couldn't disclose it to the world on this forum.

      Maybe Admin could change the settings for just one day to allow the presentation of the word to occur.
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Steadyon View Post

        Not for the first two at least.

        It has to be less than 10 charachters. That is why he couldn't disclose it to the world on this forum.

        Maybe Admin could change the settings for just one day to allow the presentation of the word to occur.
        Oh ... Oh ... I got it. Less than 10 characters and sums this thread up
        ... bull****

        But honestly, it's been said that Harlan is intelligent and nice and all, but this thread is just typical of the types of threads Harlan posts. Self-promotional to the max, intended to get sig file attention. The ironic part of it is, they often end this way because his message does not match the links in his signature. It always smacks of the pot calling the kettle black.
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        • Profile picture of the author DireStraits
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          Oh ... Oh ... I got it. Less than 10 characters and sums this thread up
          ... bull****

          But honestly, it's been said that Harlan is intelligent and nice and all, but this thread is just typical of the types of threads Harlan posts. Self-promotional to the max, intended to get sig file attention. The ironic part of it is, they often end this way because his message does not match the links in his signature. It always smacks of the pot calling the kettle black.
          LOL. I guessed similar, but my word was "fullash*te": bang on ten characters!
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          • Profile picture of the author Roy Penrod
            I know the one word that should have been present ... RESPECT. Respect for your audience. It goes a long way in developing trust with them. Hey, there's another word.

            Roy
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            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by Roy Penrod View Post

              I know the one word that should have been present ... RESPECT. Respect for your audience. It goes a long way in developing trust with them. Hey, there's another word.

              Roy

              As has been duly noted, we are not his target audience, so respect is wasted on us...

              And it is a good thing that we are not his target audience, because if we were, then he will have alienated the people most important to him...
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              Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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              • Profile picture of the author Roy Penrod
                Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                As has been duly noted, we are not his target audience, so respect is wasted on us...

                And it is a good thing that we are not his target audience, because if we were, then he will have alienated the people most important to him...
                Got it, Bill. I just realized that was my own personal world view peeking through. Interesting.

                Actually, there's a lot of little lessons throughout this entire thread. Good stuff.

                Roy
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    Does that mean we can all start threads like this one. If so can I go next? I want to bitch about the Ipad Allen sent me. I can't get past the fourth level of Angry Birds on it. It must be broken for sure.
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  • Profile picture of the author rickjackson
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
      Originally Posted by rickjackson View Post

      Who isn't getting screwed?!?!
      Me as of late. I guess going out to eat with the in-laws is actually quite important after all.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by rickjackson View Post

      Who isn't getting screwed?!?!
      A Trekkie at a cheerleading convention.
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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

        A Trekkie at a cheerleading convention.
        Or a cheerleader at a Trekkie convention
        Signature

        nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author JackPowers
    I like these posts by Harlan. It's really funny how he bashes the gurus all the while having exactly the same products for sale. Gets everyone all riled up and lots of eyes on your thread.

    Excellent marketing strategy, serious!
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi cosmokid,

      Shorten the amount of people between you and the money
      Ditto here - this is one of my online business 'commandments', derived from my experiences.
      Signature


      Roger Davis

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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Martin,
        With respect, I think you missed the point.
        That's always possible. It's also possible that what you think you read is different from what I thought I typed. Re-read this...
        Ya know, the sad thing about this is the number of people who missed the points being made and turned it into purely personal attacks on Harlan. If you really want to cut down on this stuff, attack the points, not the person. Or at least include the points.
        Now, ask yourself: Is he talking to me? Does my behavior fit with what he said he sees as a problem? Or is he talking to someone else entirely?

        Look at it from another angle. A number of people have taken my comments about my positive overall impression of Harlan as a person and construed them as an endorsement of this specific behavior. That's a clear sign of at least two things: They haven't been paying attention to what they've read, and they're mentally lazy.

        A human being is much more than the sum of their posts. To suggest that recognizing that fact is somehow defending someone's less-than-desirable behavior is foolish. And to decide that a person you don't know at all is Bad, simply because they do something of which you don't approve is downright abusive.

        And yet, we see it all the time. Here and in the media and in the streets. Everywhere you turn, people are looking for villains to explain why they're not happy.

        Other than something like "I can't find the salt," I don't recall a single problem that's ever been fixed by pointing a finger.

        Mal,
        What sticks in my craw is why HK is allowed to consistently spam the board.
        It's usually not spam as such, for one thing. However, you may recall Harlan mentioning earlier in this thread about his other posts that have gotten deleted. Another mod banned him for a while for posting something similar and then re-posting it, with attached complaints, after it was deleted.

        And if he'd posted something pointing to a webinar, we'd have deleted that, just like we delete them all when we see them.

        He's hardly getting away with anything any other regular contributor to the conversation wouldn't.

        Roger,
        if anyone attacks the points he arrogantly attacks them for daring to attack his points
        If you see him doing that, report it. Keeping in mind that you get more slack if you're posting under your own name and have something to lose.
        Personally I see the problem as the fact that this whole thread is a classic waste of pixels that generally lowers the tone.
        Only because of the tone of some of the responses. That was predictable, but it seemed worth it for the lessons involved.

        And there are always the gems that pop up. Like Michelle's post about her mentors and how she selects them and takes their advice.

        Richard,
        The question is, will he say he only got 4 thanks and ridiculed in the process?
        Very unlikely. It's somewhat more likely that he'd use the backlash over his tone as proof that we fail to appreciate his genius or that we're being hoodwinked by those Evil Gurus.

        That would serve a marketing purpose. "Those are the dumb people. You don't want to be one of the dumb people, do you?" I don't personally like that style, but it works. Interestingly, it usually only works on people who aren't paying attention.

        For those who haven't figured it out yet, Harlan likes being a target, and he does many things that seem designed to increase that status. (Note that I said target, not victim.)

        Kierkegaard,
        A guru (or teacher) is someone who offers themselves up to the forum as a candidate for appreciate as a guru.
        So, basically, they're mythical creatures?

        Eric,
        Just post something controversial, watch all the vets chime in and keep the thread on the first page for a few days - not rocket science.
        Yep. Precisely.

        The challenge is that you can't determine in advance whether the outcome will be positive or not. As far as Harlan's plans and end goals, we don't know don't know them. So, we also don't have a clue if the results will be what he wanted or not. Not my concern, either way. I'm interested in the impact on the group, which I think has been served well by the conversation.


        Paul
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        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          For those who haven't figured it out yet, Harlan likes being a target, and he does many things that seem designed to increase that status. (Note that I said target, not victim.)

          Paul
          Ok ... it seems many of Harlan's threads end up on a very negative note. Why would a reportedly educated man want to "be a target" in this way? How does this benefit him? Sure, this thread has gotten a lot of views, but do those views convert to reputation or sales? From the tone of this thread, I wouldn't think so.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Suzanne,

            [chuckle] Simple math, ma'am: Division.

            If you create a dividing line on a subject that matters to people, many of them will feel they have to choose sides. When you're persuasive in your arguments, some people will choose your "side." The stronger the division, the more extreme people tend to become in their loyalty to whichever side they choose.

            There's also the train wreck phenomenon.


            Paul
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            Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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          • Profile picture of the author ExRat
            Hi Paul,

            I appreciate your response and have learnt some from seeing your replies (not just to me.)

            But I'm stuck on this one a little -

            Personally I see the problem as the fact that this whole thread is a classic waste of pixels that generally lowers the tone.
            Only because of the tone of some of the responses.
            Surely the tone was set right from the off and it was always going to be 'one of those' threads? I'm not so focussed on the responses myself purely because I thought that the OP and the follow ups by Harlan were so outrageous (for want of a better word) that it was inciting ridicule and abuse - therefore ridicule and abuse in the replies doesn't bother me as much as the OP itself.

            As I mentioned earlier it just seems to be stacked to the brim with IM forum no-nos, almost as if that was the main focus. For example - the title. The whole contradiction/hypocrisy is demonstrated right there. On one hand it appears to be offering a welcome solution to a problem, while on the other hand it broadly insults simultaneously. Then within the actual posts it pretends that this is a unique, never heard before solution, derived from some marketing 'God'. Then it fails to deliver the solution in a pretend huff because 'we are not worthy'!

            There are more pointless mind games and contradictions contained in one original post here than in a decade spent with ex-Mrs. ExRat - and she was a mind-game/contradiction guru.
            Signature


            Roger Davis

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          • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
            Banned
            Originally Posted by cosmokid View Post

            Controversy really does sell. (Immensely cool contrarian "biker chicks" like you know this already, of course!)
            lol ... ok. Now I get it, and thanks Paul for the explanation also. Reminds me of the thread about that man who sold sunglasses and abused his customers, but the controversy caused enough buzz and backlinks to his site, he made bank on being a real jerk.
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          • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            Ok ... it seems many of Harlan's threads end up on a very negative note. Why would a reportedly educated man want to "be a target" in this way? How does this benefit him? Sure, this thread has gotten a lot of views, but do those views convert to reputation or sales? From the tone of this thread, I wouldn't think so.
            I don't think Harlan really cares if anyone bashes him or not.

            If he did, he would be over here defending himself...notice he's not here doing that.

            More than likely, he's conducting an experiment...and we are the lab rats.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              What is the shelf life of a piss poor spam thread?
              As long as people want it to be?

              The longer it is, the more people who read only the most recent posts and totally miss the jist of it....then we have opinions based on opinions of other's opinions. Woo-hoo...
              Signature
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            • Profile picture of the author Sandor Verebi
              Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

              I don't think Harlan really cares if anyone bashes him or not.

              If he did, he would be over here defending himself...notice he's not here doing that.

              More than likely, he's conducting an experiment...and we are the lab rats.
              Floyd,

              You are right. No doubt the OP is experimented here. Perhaps, his ego has grown considerably.

              I think, who commended him, they did not know him. Myself also only know him as much as possible on the basis of his comments. And newcomer people will be his followers, because they are uninformed about him. For a while...

              However, thinking people can learn from the case because it is what it is.

              Have a nice weekend,

              Sandor
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  • Profile picture of the author 4Frankie
    I agree with Jonet is a bit hard for the newbies - would say dont come to this page.
    People do need dreams and steps to get going.
    I will stick with what Im doing and head down and work hard.

    pessimism we dont need OPTIMISM WE DO NEED

    Thanks for the challenge
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  • Profile picture of the author Thaddaeus T. Hogg
    The gurus only move ahead by looking BACKWARDS.
    Well, since I AM a big time gooroo, I gots to tell you what I thank!

    I've been in this here business purt near a coons age an I always be lookin backwards. See, I gots to know what worked an what didn't work. I gots to see where I been to know where I be a goin. I tain't never found nothin wrong with lookin backwards. I gots to know where I been to figger out where I'm a goin. (I done said that two times didn't I)

    About all this stuff dyin! Sometimes I feel like I'm in one a them there vampire movies... ever time you thank those blood suckers is dead, here they come back alive again! I ain't NEVER gonna say nuthin is dead till I see it turn to dust!

    If you create a dividing line on a subject that matters to people, many of them will feel they have to choose sides. When you're persuasive in your arguments, some people will choose your "side." The stronger the division, the more extreme people tend to become in their loyalty to whichever side they choose.

    There's also the train wreck phenomenon.
    What in tarnation did that boy say? I shore wish someone would teach that feller good ole American English!

    Only thang I know bout Harlan is what Brad Paisley said, ""you'll never leave Harlan alive!"
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Carl Kelly
    Signature
    Read this SURPRISING REPORT Before You Buy ANY WSO! Click Here
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Roger,
      Surely the tone was set right from the off and it was always going to be 'one of those' threads?
      It was always going to have one of those openers, but it could well have turned out more positively than it did. I've seen it happen with threads that started out less auspiciously than this one.

      The OP and Harlan's successive responses were as bad as you suggest. No question. But that doesn't have any more meaning than each person gives it. Had people chosen to challenge the tone Harlan set without becoming personally hostile in the process, do you think that might have evoked a different response?

      We don't really know, but you can only carry "shrill" so far in the face of calm before you start noticing that you look silly. Harlan's bright enough to know when he's pushing that limit.


      Paul
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        We don't really know, but you can only carry "shrill" so far in the face of calm before you start noticing that you look silly. Harlan's bright enough to know when he's pushing that limit.


        Paul

        LOL Paul...

        You keep saying how bright this feller is...

        When I first saw your comments, I figured you were just feedin him the rope...

        This far into the game, and you are still sayin it, you must really mean it...

        I take that to mean one of two things:
        • Either he has you snookered; or
        • He has blinded me by science of NLP...

        Signature
        Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
        Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          LOL Paul...

          You keep saying how bright this feller is...

          When I first saw your comments, I figured you were just feedin him the rope...

          This far into the game, and you are still sayin it, you must really mean it...

          I take that to mean one of two things:
          • Either he has you snookered; or
          • He has blinded me by science of NLP...


          Intelligence does not equal common sense.
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        • Profile picture of the author CyberSorcerer
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          I take that to mean one of two things:
          • Either he has you snookered; or
          • He has blinded me by science of NLP..
          It's not so much that you were snookered or blinded.

          Harlan is just using some simply psychology here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    I stayed out of this fray since the early part because I figured Harlan's obvious goal here would win out. And it did. He got this thread to essentially go viral by being controversial. He won. All you guys/gals had to do was ignore it and it would have died the death it deserved.

    I figured I might as well weigh back in now since his mission has already been accomplished. But please, all of you who got suckered into this one, I'm begging you... next time someone tries to play you like Harlan did so well here, fight the urge to get into a pissing match or speculate as to motives. You're nothing more than the OP's puppet when you do.

    IMHO.

    PS - please don't chime in and point out that I just contributed. Like I said, I refrained for a long time as this thread just picked up more and more steam. By now, his mission is long since accomplished. And look at some of the big names he lured into his game. Just sayin'.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Zeus66 View Post

      I stayed out of this fray since the early part because I figured Harlan's obvious goal here would win out. And it did. He got this thread to essentially go viral by being controversial. He won. All you guys/gals had to do was ignore it and it would have died the death it deserved.

      I figured I might as well weigh back in now since his mission has already been accomplished. But please, all of you who got suckered into this one, I'm begging you... next time someone tries to play you like Harlan did so well here, fight the urge to get into a pissing match or speculate as to motives. You're nothing more than the OP's puppet when you do.

      IMHO.

      PS - please don't chime in and point out that I just contributed. Like I said, I refrained for a long time as this thread just picked up more and more steam. By now, his mission is long since accomplished. And look at some of the big names he lured into his game. Just sayin'.
      Fellow good looking baldie,

      He may have created controversy but made himself look bad in the process. I don't see how that was the intention of his master plan.

      It looks, to me, like it blew up in his face.

      IMO, some people are giving him way too much credit for something that made him look bad.


      Sincerely,


      Brother from another mother

      P.S. He made you blink.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        John,

        If we join the game for our own purposes and knowing what we're doing, why should that be a problem? You make it seem like a contest, in which one side wins and the other side is supposed to stop him. If they don't stop him, they lose.

        Who cares? I'm not concerned with whether the end result is something Harlan wanted or not. I'm concerned with what other people take from it.

        Bill,
        I take that to mean one of two things:

        * Either he has you snookered; or
        * He has blinded me by science of NLP...
        There's a third possibility, at least... There's more to Harlan than you've yet seen.


        Paul
        Signature
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        Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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        • Profile picture of the author drmani
          I'll ask a question NOT asked thus far into this thread:

          If YOU need a copywriter who can evoke CONTROVERSY among a crowd,
          would you (at least) think of Harlan's name?


          I would.

          Think about that 'angle'?



          All success
          Dr.Mani
          Signature
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by drmani View Post

            I'll ask a question NOT asked thus far into this thread:

            If YOU need a copywriter who can evoke CONTROVERSY among a crowd,
            would you (at least) think of Harlan's name?


            I would.

            Think about that 'angle'?



            All success
            Dr.Mani
            Absolutely. I think Harlan is very talented. I just think he missed the mark on this one.
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            • Profile picture of the author Sandor Verebi
              Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

              Absolutely. I think Harlan is very talented. I just think he missed the mark on this one.
              Thomas, I think he got the confirmation.

              Anyway, that's good, if there are talented people. The world needs them. The question is, what for and how they use their talents.

              Best,

              Sandor
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          • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
            Originally Posted by drmani View Post

            If YOU need a copywriter who can evoke CONTROVERSY among a crowd,
            would you (at least) think of Harlan's name?
            One sign of a good copywriter is knowing their market and triggers. This thread reminds me of Pavlov's dogs responding to a bell ringing.

            Is this thread a result of conditioning?

            Marvin
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            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by Marvin Johnston View Post

              If YOU need a copywriter who can evoke CONTROVERSY among a crowd, would you (at least) think of Harlan's name?
              One sign of a good copywriter is knowing their market and triggers. This thread reminds me of Pavlov's dogs responding to a bell ringing.

              Is this thread a result of conditioning?

              Marvin

              I think the question runs deeper than this.

              If you want someone who knows how to stir controversy, Harlan is one of the guys I think could do it, among others.

              But the real test is not whether he stirred controversy, the real test is whether he accomplished his goals.

              How many people followed his signature and signed up for his mailing list, so that they could find out about his webinar?

              Controversy for the sake of controversy is either fun (as I do it) or rather pointless.

              Controversy to move forward an agenda should yield the desired results.

              The only person who knows for sure if he succeeded in his goals is him.

              The rest of us are left to wonder if it went his way or not.

              Personally, I think it COULD HAVE worked out well for him, but I also think he overplayed his hand...

              The people reading this thread and keeping up with the conversation were NOT in his target market. They were simply a means to an end, to keep his story alive.

              His target audience are the people who read his original post and accepted it at face value...

              The question is not whether he succeeded in triggering us puppets that he used to keep his thread alive... The real question is whether his target audience took the bait and the action he desired them to take...

              Somehow I think he failed in that regard...

              I don't think he failed because the puppets reacted harshly...

              I think he failed by casting his net too wide and also offending the people he was hoping to hook.

              So back to Dr. Mani's original question...

              If I need someone to stir a controversy, Harlan is one of the people I will think about...

              But if I need someone to stir a controversy to generate interest, while at the same time luring my target audience to take the action I want them to take, I suspect that Harlan would not be high on my list of candidate copy writers.
              Signature
              Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
              Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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            • Profile picture of the author Onash
              Reading this thread reminds me of Paris Hilton.......she is famous for ............being famous..!.and raking up a controversy....what has her contribution to society been....? She creates controversy to market herself.......even videos of her getting slammed go viral !....feeding into her ....you guessed it...... popularity......see her interview here.....letterman is pure genius on this one....watch his comeback at around 4:18

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          • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
            Originally Posted by drmani View Post

            I'll ask a question NOT asked thus far into this thread:

            If YOU need a copywriter who can evoke CONTROVERSY among a crowd,
            would you (at least) think of Harlan's name?


            I would.

            Think about that 'angle'?



            All success
            Dr.Mani
            Is that a serious question?
            No.
            Signature

            nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author brunski57
    Here is how it works... if you have something "HOT" that's sells great.... keep to yourself, until that market becomes saturated and the profits become "mediocre". Then finish off by selling it as IM opportunity.
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  • Profile picture of the author Darrell Hagan
    Oh crap.....cats outta the bag and I was just about to launch my latest rehashed collection of IMBS. Now I suppose that I'll have to offer real quality content & oh ho hum I suppose they'll expect value for their money too.....Hmmm.....what a concept.....just might be onto something .
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  • Profile picture of the author Tallguy83
    Hey Harlan,
    Great Post you have here.I've nothing against Marketing Guru. I think They earned the money by understanding buyers(IM people).

    But I've notice recently the high ticket products like "The Software system" is not as hot as usual.Maybe the trend that started from John Reese's launch will eventually replaced by high quality low price items.
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi,

      It seems to me like people are giving way too much credit -

      Marvin,

      One sign of a good copywriter is knowing their market and triggers. This thread reminds me of Pavlov's dogs responding to a bell ringing.

      Is this thread a result of conditioning?
      You could say that about any thread where the replies are predictable - IE - nearly all of them!

      EG That thread yesterday where someone asked about 'an IMer's typical day.' When I replied about my typical day, I was like Pavlov's dogs thus proving what an awesome copywriter the OP was, knowing their market and my triggers. In reality, the OP in that thread was a complete newbie, but you could still call me Pavlov's dog because I was on-topic!

      Zeus66,

      I stayed out of this fray since the early part because I figured Harlan's obvious goal here would win out. And it did. He got this thread to essentially go viral by being controversial. He won. All you guys/gals had to do was ignore it and it would have died the death it deserved.
      Define 'going viral' - do you mean that it got a bunch of views on the forum here? Sorry, but I think it's you and the others that are impressed who are being played here.

      Dr. Mani,

      If YOU need a copywriter who can evoke CONTROVERSY among a crowd, would you (at least) think of Harlan's name?

      I would.

      Think about that 'angle'?
      OK, if this is such a great achievement, here's how you do it.

      Start a thread with an inflammatory title and then in the body of the thread say -

      'You're all complete idiots and suckers and you'll never succeed because the gurus have you wrapped around their little finger.'

      You'll get the same sort of response and achieve similar. Most importantly - when we all start doing this and get away with it and gain kudos for it, what will happen to the quality of the forum and the community?

      The one-sentence controversy/polarisation course -

      'Democrats suck!'

      /end lesson

      To Dr. Mani - no, I'd avoid this blundering oaf like the plague and go and talk to Colin Theriot or Bruce Wedding. Colin or Bruce have achieved that with any one of their posts here, therefore it took them no more than 20 minutes to put Harlan completely in the shade in terms of his copywriting ability demonstrated here.

      I'd be shocked if you paid Harlan yourself, when you could easily write better 'controversial' copy than demonstated in this thread - even though I've barely ever seen your copy and I've hardly ever seen you being controversial Dr. Mani - mainly just your posts.

      I just can't believe that educated people on this forum think that this thread demonstrates anything in Harlan's favour.

      It's a train-wreck epic fail, in my opinion. It's like the Rich Jerk gone horribly wrong - the Lame Jerk.

      Perhaps this is why much of the 'guru' stuff is totally underwhelming and why so many talentless copy-cats rise to the top in this industry.

      All you need to do is develop Tourette's-troll syndrome and insult 'the little people', hang out with and name-drop the syndicate and suddenly you're a copywriting God.
      Signature


      Roger Davis

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      • Profile picture of the author Susan Hope
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post


        It's a train-wreck epic fail, in my opinion. It's like the Rich Jerk gone horribly wrong - the Lame Jerk.
        Now that one made me have to clean my laptop screen, very pmsl..
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        Hi,

        It seems to me like people are giving way too much credit -

        It's a train-wreck epic fail, in my opinion. It's like the Rich Jerk gone horribly wrong - the Lame Jerk.

        Perhaps this is why much of the 'guru' stuff is totally underwhelming and why so many talentless copy-cats rise to the top in this industry.

        All you need to do is develop Tourette's-troll syndrome and insult 'the little people', hang out with and name-drop the syndicate and suddenly you're a copywriting God.
        I want to agree with this, but have to admit that I could be wrong, because I've seen offensive, negative advertising work, like in the case of the sunglasses guy ... but it only worked for awhile. He's now in jail.

        I was one of those who really liked the Rich Jerk style for quite awhile. The big difference between that and this was the humor. I cracked up at his insulting style while he was playing to his audience. Did it work for me? Not really. I bought his initial course because I was curious and knew nothing about Internet marketing, so it worked initially, but while I laughed at his emails from then on, they didn't sell me. But that's just me. I don't buy a ton of products and I know his emails did sell.

        Paul said something to the effect of "people are not the sum of what they post" ...

        but ... I only know Harlan from what he has posted, and I've gotten a very negative impression of him from each one that I've read. He might be the nicest guy around in his community, but it's not likely that I will ever see another side of Harlan. I would never hire him as a copywriter when there is the Copy Nazi and the others mentioned, and many more excellent copywriters available who could do the job right on this forum.

        But the interesting part, and you can see it a couple of posts above, is some newbie drops in and says something completely inane about the OP like ... interesting post, completely oblivious to the rest of this thread .... he just read the OP and chimed right in. Well, that's his target market and there are enough of them here that this thread could have served its purpose for Harlan.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Wasn't the point to test headlines and sub-headlines in the first place?

          Until you know someone outside the forum - the impression they leave IS the sum of their posts.

          You can put a cow pattie on a pedestal and call it art - and some will say "brilliant" while others have a good chuckle. Who is to say who's right?

          kay
          Signature
          Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
          ***
          One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
          what it is instead of what you think it should be.
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  • Profile picture of the author Aira Bongco
    Not being rude here but that would really make a nice 'us vs. them' intro in a WSO.

    There are two ways you can look at things:
    1. Blame the world on giving you information that does not work because you are not acting on them.
    2. Act on them and reap the rewards.

    I really want to throw up with all these anti-guru threads. Why worry about how much other people are making when you can start right now making money for yourself? I guess taking action is really that hard.
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    Question: What is the shelf life of a piss poor spam thread?
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  • Profile picture of the author CTonline09
    I agree with tina golden.

    I mean come on dude check out your squeeze page.

    Successful Marketer Reveals The Secret
    To Building An Online Business
    While Playing On Beaches Around The World




    Looks like the usual guru tactic of capturing your email then mailing you to death with offer after offer that according to you is dead. Lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author st271
    This thread has generated over 6,000 views in 48 hours. Even if you don't agree with Harlon it might be a good idea to swipe the thread title.
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  • Profile picture of the author Don Schenk
    Eric Lorence
    Just post something controversial, watch all the vets chime in and keep the thread on the first page for a few days - not rocket science.

    Not many on this thread will be a customer - but they are not the target market ... how many others will read the OP and and click the sig out of curiosity?

    Short attention span + missing the irony of the sig = perfect customer.

    Laughing all the way to the bank ....


    A while back, Frank Kern put together a pitchfest for those who bought his Mass Control 2, and Harlan was one of the speakers at the event. Harlan, dressed in monk's robes gave a presentation with Frank about using NLP in your advertising copy.

    It was a well designed presentation made to encourage people to buy Harlan's NLP-Copywriting stuff. The total cost for the package was $2538 plus shipping. On the order form (I'm a pack-rat and keep everything) it says:

    "...are non-refundable, non-returnable and I voluntarily give up my right to issue a charge back via my credit card company. My signature below represents my agreement to all terms and conditions of this sale."

    There were around 500 people in the audience. If just 20 people bought, that is >$50K for an hour and a half talk. Yes, he splits the money it with Frank.

    I just grabbed these stats from the WF home page: Currently Active Users: 6680 (1926 members and 4754 guests)

    How many of those 4754 guests have clicked on Harlan's sig? How much will he sell?

    Harlan knows what he is doing.

    cosmokid
    I've had editors of newspapers hire me to write columns for them based on them following negative posts or lies about me and tracking me down to hire me. Controversy really does sell. (Immensely cool contrarian "biker chicks" like you know this already, of course!)
    I can be a bit dense at times, and I am finally figuring out this "controversy" fact. Maybe it's time I start using some in my own writings. I really am learning from this thread.

    :-Don
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by Don Schenk View Post

      I can be a bit dense at times, and I am finally figuring out this "controversy" fact. Maybe it's time I start using some in my own writings. I really am learning from this thread.

      :-Don
      Be careful when you play with fire. You need to be clear about where you draw the line.

      It may well be copywriting gospel to 'create an itch to scratch' so that you can put your product/service forward as the pain relief, but some would also say that creating a false sense of value in the perception of gullible newbies just so you can screw them out of whatever credit they still have at their disposal - just to make yourself some dollars also has implications.

      Some people seem to think the ends justify the means and if you can good money doing something then it's something to be admired.

      I could sell drugs or guns and make great money, and maybe some poor suckers would see that as something great to be copied, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

      Creating all this fake buzz and controversy just makes the problem even worse.

      We left the information age in the dust - we're now in the overinformation age.

      You marketing messages are like droplets of water falling onto a drenched sponge.

      People get too many ads blasted at them every day - the urge to have to go balls-out to blast your message above the noise just raises the noise level.

      If you're going to play that game - you'd better be ready to keep raising the level of your own game just to keep up.

      It's MUCH easier to get your message out when you just position yourself differently - rather than trying to be just like all the other information gurus trying to sell the same information to the same crowd of people.

      Even using NLP as a leverage phrase to get newbies who think they're missing out on something to buy 50 year old sales techniques as though they're some new mind-control strategy is old news.

      I know they say that it's easier to model success - but don't be fooled by appearances, some people's version of success may not be what you think.
      Signature

      nothing to see here.

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      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
        Don,

        To add to what Andy says, this controversial thread thing is not a good idea.

        Taking it at face value some people might conclude the following from Harlan's OP:

        1. It's OK to post your articles here as a thread

        2. It's OK to insult people here

        3. It's OK to be a troll here.

        What's going to happen now if every thread in the Main Discussion forum from now on is controversial?

        Now, if I ever thought that kind of marketing was effective, I would do it elsewhere, not here on the WF. It's a question of respect and I think Harlan has no respect for this place.

        I take Paul's point that we don't know Harlan. But we can only know him from what he posts.


        Martin
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by Don Schenk View Post

      Harlan knows what he is doing.
      Maybe he does...

      Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

      Folks, lesson to be learned here...

      Be ethical in what you say.

      Be ethical in your claims.

      Otherwise, it will come back and bite you in the ass.
      Signature

      Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

      Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zanti
    What these “Debbie Downers” don’t seem to realize is that their comments and actions here can have a direct impact on their business and reputation. What I mean by that is; there are some that don’t seem to understand that making crass comments or jokes, belittling others, questioning someone’s intelligence, making sexist comments, and just being a jerk is seen by many here. More importantly, you create an energy that will be attached to you and your business and not in a good way. So if you're wondering why you aren't making sales or why sales have dropped, this could be the reason why.
    I can only speak for myself, but there are both some veteran Warriors and some new ones that after witnessing how they engage with others here I would never buy any product from them, ever. Just based on how they treat people on this forum. For me it’s just part of my integrity and ethics that I can’t support someone economically who has so little care or concern about how they treat their fellow man or woman.
    The above is from the tread I started a few days ago. I didn't realize then that what I wrote would play out in such a perfect example so soon. I don't know Harlan but I wonder what kind of energy he is creating for himself, his business and for those that follow him.

    Maybe that one word that some have been waiting for is Integrity. It is less than 10 letters.

    Brian
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    • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
      Originally Posted by Zanti View Post

      The above is from the thread I started a few days ago. I didn't realize then that what I wrote would play out in such a perfect example so soon. I don't know Harlan but I wonder what kind of energy he is creating for himself, his business and for those that follow him.

      Maybe that one word that some have been waiting for is Integrity. It is less than 10 letters.

      Brian

      I read that thread, and the only thing I have to say is....
      you should post more.



      Peace

      Jim
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by Zanti View Post

      The above is from the tread I started a few days ago. I didn't realize then that what I wrote would play out in such a perfect example so soon. I don't know Harlan but I wonder what kind of energy he is creating for himself, his business and for those that follow him.

      Maybe that one word that some have been waiting for is Integrity. It is less than 10 letters.

      Brian
      Brian, established warriors need to realize just how much of an impression they can make on new and clueless newbies, and they definitely shouldn't be abusing their powers like this.

      This is the reason why you see so many newbies proclaiming 'doom and gloom' all around; they have had their chains yanked every which way by gurus and experts who use their latest messages to terrorize them into submission, ready to do their bidding when requested.

      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        So, since Harlan started this off with an article that was leading into his promo for a webinar, I thought it might be fair to quote a quick line from the note he sent out after the first webinar was held:
        I was uncovering one Guru scam after another when suddenly -
        they hacked GoToWebinar and the webinar went dead.
        Now, I didn't listen to the webinar, so I have no notion what his new idea is, or if it's as good as he says or not. But... 'The gurus' hacked GoToWebinar to shut him up?

        Which 'gurus,' Harlan? Can you offer anything to support this extraordinary claim? If you can prove it, you've really got a hook that will get you a lot of press. All the right kinds of attention.

        If not, you're not helping your case much.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          I was uncovering one Guru scam after another when suddenly - they hacked GoToWebinar and the webinar went dead.
          But... 'The gurus' hacked GoToWebinar to shut him up?

          Which 'gurus,' Harlan? Can you offer anything to support this extraordinary claim? If you can prove it, you've really got a hook that will get you a lot of press. All the right kinds of attention.

          If not, you're not helping your case much.


          Paul

          LOL

          The WF veterans are out to get him.

          The 'gurus' are out to get him, trying to silence his voice.

          SD is out to get him.

          I guess that means that the newbies are safe with him under his guidance, because so many people are 'committed' to destroying his credibility.... :rolleyes:
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          • Profile picture of the author CyberSorcerer
            Originally Posted by tpw View Post

            I guess that means that the newbies are safe with him under his guidance, because so many people are 'committed' to destroying his credibility.... :rolleyes:
            His credibility was already ruined from the opening post when he tried to practice psychology in an Internet Marketing forum.
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        • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          So, since Harlan started this off with an article that was leading into his promo for a webinar, I thought it might be fair to quote a quick line from the note he sent out after the first webinar was held:Now, I didn't listen to the webinar, so I have no notion what his new idea is, or if it's as good as he says or not. But... 'The gurus' hacked GoToWebinar to shut him up?

          Which 'gurus,' Harlan? Can you offer anything to support this extraordinary claim? If you can prove it, you've really got a hook that will get you a lot of press. All the right kinds of attention.

          If not, you're not helping your case much.


          Paul
          Yeah Paul...the "syndicate" were so scared of what Doctor Hackenbush was revealing that they actually paid the Wikileaks guy Julian Assange to do a number on the webinar. It's true. They shut him down. And now the poor Doctor is in fear of his life. He's had to stop working at the beach and everything.
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        • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          So, since Harlan started this off with an article that was leading into his promo for a webinar, I thought it might be fair to quote a quick line from the note he sent out after the first webinar was held:Now, I didn't listen to the webinar, so I have no notion what his new idea is, or if it's as good as he says or not. But... 'The gurus' hacked GoToWebinar to shut him up?

          Which 'gurus,' Harlan? Can you offer anything to support this extraordinary claim? If you can prove it, you've really got a hook that will get you a lot of press. All the right kinds of attention.

          If not, you're not helping your case much.


          Paul
          Your kidding right?

          Now I'm beginning to wonder if ole Harlan is one of the biggest loons in the history of IM, or one of the smartest...

          IM therapists quote a fine line between the two:p


          I have to go turn on the radio now....to get The Twilight Zone theme outta my head.

          Just as I thought I was out.....

          They puuuuull me back in....




          LOL
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Easy, folks. There's been enough of the personal sarcasm in this thread already. Let's look at the impact of this kind of statement, rather than being snide about it.

            The good doctor has created some interesting positioning issues here. If his secret is as good as he says, of course, that won't matter one tiny little bit. And that may well be the case.

            Or not. Time will tell.

            Coming in here and posting something like the first post in this thread, knowing it was going to be an ad for a webinar, hasn't helped him much as far as this group goes. That probably doesn't matter to him a great deal. The secondary effects might, as a lot of the people reading this know and interact regularly with others in the industry. Given the breadth of readership, that goes well beyond the circles of 'The Gurus.'

            The absolutist inclusion of everyone known as a guru ties his hands a bit, too. By referring to them ALL as scammers, he now can't acknowledge anyone as a leading figure or authority in any related field without the question coming up: Isn't that one of those guru scammers you were on about?

            Had he started out with something like, "There are a lot of guys at the top of this game who are pushing over-priced garbage solely to suck money out of your wallets," no-one would have argued with him. It's true, after all. But there are a lot of people at the top of the business selling quality products that deliver, too.

            Absolutist divisions are rarely accurate portrayals of reality, and they're almost always dangerous.

            Roaddog,

            No, I'm not kidding. That was an exact quote from the email. The rest just reinforced it. If he can't offer more than the simple assertion to back up his claim, he's hurt his credibility with a lot of people who didn't care about the excessive hyperbole before.

            Of course, if he can back it up he's got one hell of a hook for the rest of the story.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


              Roaddog,

              No, I'm not kidding. That was an exact quote from the email. The rest just reinforced it. If he can't offer more than the simple assertion to back up his claim, he's hurt his credibility with a lot of people who didn't care about the excessive hyperbole before.

              Of course, if he can back it up he's got one hell of a hook for the rest of the story.


              Paul

              Paul

              I wasn't really kidding either, there is a fine line sometimes between what looks like crazy and what is smart....look at the buzz he has created here.
              Now obviously expanding on that.

              If you have a thick skin and can withstand a few shots, (any publicity is good publicity...I gave Harlan kudos on that already).....
              you could make something like this work for you.

              He came in and kicked the pooch a few threads ago...now the hornets nest with this thread, and now an expansion on that.
              Seems too calculated to not be something
              I was just kind of surprised that he kicked it up another notch



              I don't get the impression that he's not an intelligent guy

              but how he's going to bring this all down to one word....?

              Whatever he's up to, it's getting interesting.



              Jim
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              • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
                Originally Posted by Roaddog View Post

                I wasn't really kidding either, there is a fine line sometimes between what looks like crazy and what is smart....look at the buzz he has created here.
                Taking a look at the "buzz", it is mostly from a relatively few people looking for a place to expound their opinions.

                As Paul stated a while ago, this is an interesting lesson in group dynamics. I just wish something useful was being accomplished.

                Marvin
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            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Coming in here and posting something like the first post in this thread, knowing it was going to be an ad for a webinar, hasn't helped him much as far as this group goes. That probably doesn't matter to him a great deal.

              Honestly Paul. I don't think this matters to him at all, or he would have chosen his words more carefully.

              I see a difference between me spouting off with a couple minutes thought to be one thing, and crafting letters for a larger marketing campaign to be much, much different.

              When I am writing sales letters, and more so when I am creating a series of sales letters, I literally spend hours, days and weeks on the writing process.

              I write, then I edit, edit and edit some more. Then I put the copy in front of people to gauge the reaction. I take the feedback, then I edit, edit and edit some more.

              Maybe I am overly anal in this process?

              According to what I have heard from other sales copy writers, I am probably less anal than they are.

              And Harlan is a professional copy writer, correct?

              So forgive me if I assume that he has invested more time crafting his strategies and word craft than he has...

              Snide comments aside, you and I are still not connecting on this one.

              I am assuming that you are right, and that he is a smart guy...

              I am also assuming that this is all part of a planned strategy to strengthen his influence over his audience...

              And his note that you mentioned this evening only strengthens the idea in my mind that this is all part of an elaborate, planned strategy and game plan...

              Either that, or he is quickly losing his grasp on reality and believing his own hype...

              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Absolutist divisions are rarely accurate portrayals of reality, and they're almost always dangerous.
              I agree, and I absolutely believe that he overplayed his hand.

              That is why I have to question whether he is really as smart as you say he is... Either he is not as smart as we give him credit, or his ego is about to get the best of him...

              There is a cartoon I watched as a child that stuck with me to this day.

              I honestly think it was Yogi Bear...

              The park ranger got in the airplane to go restock the lakes with fish...

              Yogi knew the fish were in the airplane, so when the park ranger went to deliver the fish, he grabbed the axle under the plane and hung on for dear life.

              As the plane was flying over the lake, the park ranger opened one of the doors on the bottom of the airplane.

              The bear reached and and grabbed a large armful of fish...

              With one arm holding tight an armful of fish, and the other paw hanging on to the airplane, he had it made...

              He was going to eat like a happy bear when the airplane returned him to the earth...

              Then the park ranger opened the second door and more fish began to fall to the lake below...

              LOL

              And the bear used his free hand to reach for more fish...

              Then he realized what he had done, and he fell into the lake losing all of the fish he had caught...

              Harlan could be like that bear, reaching too far in an attempt to lift himself onto a pedestal, in an attempt to win those who feel they have been cheated by the dishonest, but also trying to win those who buy from the honest.

              Most often, when professional copy writers use division to highlight what is awesome about them, they attempt to segregate one portion of the audience and bring the target audience into the fold.

              But by swiping at the dishonest and the honest in one pass, Harlan is not just reaching for a part of the market he can win easily. Instead, he is lunging towards all of the marketplace, except for the WF veterans and the 'gurus'.

              If Harlan had just swiped at those who had been cheated by the dishonest, then it would have made sense to me.

              You can win the trust of people who have been cheated, by indicating how you are not like the people who cheated them...

              But here, Harlan has indicated that he is not like anyone who has a large following, therefore he seems to be reaching for two arms full of fish instead of one...

              Either he is reaching too far in one shot, or he is losing touch with his training...

              If he had been doing what we expected him to do, he would first go after those who felt they had been cheated... Once he had secured that part of the audience, he would come back later in another campaign and tried to undercut the audience set that listens to the honest people who make big bucks...

              He should have been chipping away at disenfranchised consumers... Yet he was trying to prove smoke where there was no fire, by undermining the honest, while trashing the dishonest...

              So Paul...

              LOL

              What am I missing in the bigger picture?
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              Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          So, since Harlan started this off with an article that was leading into his promo for a webinar, I thought it might be fair to quote a quick line from the note he sent out after the first webinar was held:Now, I didn't listen to the webinar, so I have no notion what his new idea is, or if it's as good as he says or not. But... 'The gurus' hacked GoToWebinar to shut him up?

          Which 'gurus,' Harlan? Can you offer anything to support this extraordinary claim? If you can prove it, you've really got a hook that will get you a lot of press. All the right kinds of attention.

          If not, you're not helping your case much.


          Paul
          Paul, I'm absolutely incredulous after reading this. Those are some pretty serious allegations, and until and unless he can prove that this actually occurred, he might have just ruined his reputation permanently in here shooting off his mouth like this.

          Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          So, since Harlan started this off with an article that was leading into his promo for a webinar, I thought it might be fair to quote a quick line from the note he sent out after the first webinar was held:Now, I didn't listen to the webinar, so I have no notion what his new idea is, or if it's as good as he says or not. But... 'The gurus' hacked GoToWebinar to shut him up?

          Which 'gurus,' Harlan? Can you offer anything to support this extraordinary claim? If you can prove it, you've really got a hook that will get you a lot of press. All the right kinds of attention.

          If not, you're not helping your case much.


          Paul
          Paul,
          We may never know if they did or not.

          Harlan hasn't posted here in a few days so the Goobers may have taken him hostage.

          Seeing that Harlan said the Goobers feed us rehashed stuff, I'll bet we
          could find him in Area 51.

          If there is a Warrior in that area could you please look through the fence
          and see if there are a bunch of expensive vehicles parked near the Top Secret barracks hidden over by the second hill? :rolleyes:

          Have a Great Day!
          Michael
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          • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
            Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

            Take Paul out of this thread and it would have died FAST IMO!
            This has been obvious for quite a while...

            Originally Posted by Michael Mayo View Post

            Seeing that Harlan said the Goobers feed us rehashed stuff, I'll bet we could find him in Area 51.

            If there is a Warrior in that area could you please look through the fence and see if there are a bunch of expensive vehicles parked near the Top Secret barracks hidden over by the second hill? :rolleyes:
            That would be Mike Long. He owns the place.

            ~Bill
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  • Profile picture of the author kianhowe
    LOL awesome post! But we know that not only the renown gurus are making money. There are still profitable niches out there!
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  • Profile picture of the author matekat
    I'm tired of every little rant proclaiming the death of [INSERT THING HERE].
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  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
    I know this is going a little against the flow of opinion in this thread now but.......

    Is this really all that controversial?

    How many times have you seen something like:

    "I have to type this quick because my accountant has told me I'm crazy to make this offer and he'll drag me over hot coals if he finds out I'm selling my stuff so cheap"

    or

    "This is (insert marketer's name here)'s wife - I snuck onto his computer because he's so busy working on his new product I think he's forgotten to tell you about it. I didn't want his tardiness to mean you miss out so I've put together a page where you can grab it right now - just don't tell him that I was on his computer and maybe I can do this again for you in the future."

    You know what I mean.... ?

    From the perspective of someone who's been an active member here for quite a long time I do feel like the OP (in the context of it just being part of a promotion) was a cheap thing to do and disrespectful of this community, don't get me wrong - but...

    I see much worse than this going on all the time and there seem to be queues of people here who respect those people.

    Are we being overly harsh on Harlan here?

    If so, is it because we expect more from someone who is clearly an intelligent person and apparently pretty well connected in the IM niche?

    If it was a newbie coming here and doing this, the thread probably would've been nuked early on and the whole thing ignored.

    So - what's really going on here?

    Is it more about this community drawing a line about what is unacceptable obvious selling, is it about IMers in general and the desperate tactics they'll use to try and squeeze a few extra sales out, or is it about Harlan and just this particular incident?

    Would it matter if we knew why he was doing it?

    If his child was ill and he was raising money for an operation would be be more leniant?

    Is it really about us? about how we feel people are trying to manipulate us and abuse us to get their hand in our wallets?

    I certainly don't know the answer - perhaps it's a mix.

    I don't know Harlan and I don't appreciate the way this thread started and has been positioned, but we do seem to be jumping off the deep end and looking for things to hold against him now and I'm not clear about exactly why.

    I don't imagine with all the accusations he'll be inclined to continue responding in this thread so I'm not sure this will get resolved.

    It's easy to go with the flow once our emotions have been triggered, but I think it's a good exercise to also step back and look at what is going on and why we respond the way we do, especially as a community to one of our own.

    Andy
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    nothing to see here.

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    • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post



      From the perspective of someone who's been an active member here for quite a long time I do feel like the OP (in the context of it just being part of a promotion) was a cheap thing to do and disrespectful of this community, don't get me wrong - but...


      Andy

      Well that's why I was a little peeved at first, I felt it was almost an insult...
      but now, I think I see a bigger picture to this. Like I said in a previous post tonight it seems like a bigger calculated plan...almost.

      I'll say one thing...he's got huevos grande for trying this.

      It's almost like he is going for broke. IMHO

      Now I'm going to watch with interest, more than anything else.


      Regards


      Jim
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      • Profile picture of the author paulie888
        Originally Posted by Roaddog View Post

        Well that's why I was a little peeved at first, I felt it was almost an insult...
        but now, I think I see a bigger picture to this. Like I said in a previous post tonight it seems like a bigger calculated plan...almost.

        I'll say one thing...he's got huevos grande for trying this.

        It's almost like he is going for broke. IMHO

        Now I'm going to watch with interest, more than anything else.


        Regards


        Jim
        Jim, I think you're right in that he's going for broke. It certainly seems like he's got very little to lose here, as I think that the majority of his leads and prospects come from outside this forum.

        It'll be very interesting to see how he conducts himself in here after the fallout has cleared.

        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Jim,
        Whatever he's up to, it's getting interesting.
        Maybe. I'm not convinced in any direction. It wouldn't take a genius to set something like this up and have a reasonable expectation of the various potential outcomes. They're not hard to predict.

        But then, it would be easy even for a genius to look at shorter term results and miss the second order effects, or various ancillary possibilities. The majority of copywriters suck at thinking past the sales process.

        It could just be the mess it looks like. Doesn't matter to me either way, though. The lessons that are useful for the group are here.

        One that folks may be missing: Marketers, even the best of them, aren't usually the kinds of scheming masterminds you see in James Bond movies.

        Bill,

        Guess at his motives if you like. I don't know them, so I can't even form an opinion on whether his actions have been effective in achieving them. As I said earlier, he may be completely unconcerned with the response to this from anyone at all. That would not be an especially unusual occurrence, after all.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          he may be completely unconcerned with the response to this from anyone at all. That would not be an especially unusual occurrence, after all.


          Paul

          Agreed. That would not be unusual at all.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Bill,
            Agreed. That would not be unusual at all.
            Just to be clear, I didn't mean that as a reference to Harlan alone. Lots of people simply don't care what various groups think or how they respond to certain things.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Bill,Just to be clear, I didn't mean that as a reference to Harlan alone. Lots of people simply don't care what various groups think or how they respond to certain things.


              Paul

              I know you did not mean it for Harlan alone.

              Shoot, you could honestly say the same about me sometimes...
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        • Profile picture of the author profitsforall
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          One that folks may be missing: Marketers, even the best of them, aren't usually the kinds of scheming masterminds you see in James Bond movies.Paul
          The evil masterminds in James Bond movies are all incredibly dumb.
          Why else would they explain their entire plan to James Bond, then try to kill him in an extremely inventive (but easily escapable) fashion. Instead of a good old fashioned bullet to the brain

          Perhaps the scheming gurus - who i believe are very much in the minority are more like James Bond villains than we thought
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        • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


          One that folks may be missing: Marketers, even the best of them, aren't usually the kinds of scheming masterminds you see in James Bond movies.

          Paul



          Brownfinger....
          Schemed the perfect anti-climax of the world.
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    • Profile picture of the author nathanj
      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

      I know this is going a little against the flow of opinion in this thread now but.......

      Is this really all that controversial?

      How many times have you seen something like:

      "I have to type this quick because my accountant has told me I'm crazy to make this offer and he'll drag me over hot coals if he finds out I'm selling my stuff so cheap"

      or

      "This is (insert marketer's name here)'s wife - I snuck onto his computer because he's so busy working on his new product I think he's forgotten to tell you about it. I didn't want his tardiness to mean you miss out so I've put together a page where you can grab it right now - just don't tell him that I was on his computer and maybe I can do this again for you in the future."

      Andy
      I have seen the Wife one a few times. I have always looked at them and thought ha! That's a good idea. But then I think to myself. Who would fall for that? Or would they just take up the opportunity to get 'it' early or at a discount while knowing it is utter nonsense!
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  • Profile picture of the author noname987
    You have your point. But you can't force IM to do or think like you were doing and thinking.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by noname987 View Post

      You have your point. But you can't force IM to do or think like you were doing and thinking.
      With Paul and some of the most respected Warriors commenting, was it really advisable to put affiliate links in your signature? :rolleyes:
      Signature

      Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Richard,
        With Paul and some of the most respected Warriors commenting, was it really advisable to put affiliate links in your signature?
        He won't likely see your comment, but he'll notice the result at some point.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
          It used to be "The server went down during the launch"...."Because of this I still have 73 copies left".

          This has progressed to:

          "The gurus' hacked GoToWebinar to shut me up!"....."So I will have another 3 webinars this week"..... etc....

          It reminds me of the excuses I used to give at school:

          "My dog chewed up my writing pad"

          or

          "I left my bag on the bus"

          or

          "My grandma died".....again.....
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Originally Posted by Steadyon View Post

            It used to be "The server went down during the launch"...."Because of this I still have 73 copies left".

            This has progressed to:

            "The gurus' hacked GoToWebinar to shut me up!"....."So I will have another 3 webinars this week"..... etc....
            Not a fair analogy. As far as I know, Harlan never said there would only be one webinar on this. I just went back and looked at the email announcing it, and don't see any such claim.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Not a fair analogy. As far as I know, Harlan never said there would only be one webinar on this. I just went back and looked at the email announcing it, and don't see any such claim.


              Paul

              I stand corrected then. Before I had a chance to check his email properly, my cat knocked coffee all over my keyboard and..uh...mm....a......Oh ok he didn't.

              Sorry...
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          • Profile picture of the author paulie888
            Originally Posted by Steadyon View Post

            It used to be "The server went down during the launch"...."Because of this I still have 73 copies left".

            This has progressed to:

            "The gurus' hacked GoToWebinar to shut me up!"....."So I will have another 3 webinars this week"..... etc....

            It reminds me of the excuses I used to give at school:

            "My dog chewed up my writing pad"

            or

            "I left my bag on the bus"

            or

            "My grandma died".....again.....
            Whether or not this "hacking" incident is true remains to be seen, but it certainly made everyone sit up and take notice. I now wonder if he'll present any substantive proof, on the webinar or elsewhere, that this alleged incident actually took place.

            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Paul,

              I consider it unlikely that anyone acted to take down Harlan's webinar, but it's possible. I'd say very highly improbable, but possible. It wouldn't be especially difficult. Anyone with the desire to do such a thing could accomplish the task with a lot less effort than "hacking GoToWebinar."


              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author paulie888
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                Paul,

                I consider it unlikely that anyone acted to take down Harlan's webinar, but it's possible. I'd say very highly improbable, but possible. It wouldn't be especially difficult. Anyone with the desire to do such a thing could accomplish the task with a lot less effort than "hacking GoToWebinar."


                Paul
                I'd have to agree on this. While not completely outside the realm of possibility, the chances of anything even remotely close to that happening are quite unlikely. If this was meant as some sort of publicity stunt intended to generate controversy, it certainly did its job though.

                Paul
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                • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                  Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

                  I'd have to agree on this. While not completely outside the realm of possibility, the chances of anything even remotely close to that happening are quite unlikely. If this was meant as some sort of publicity stunt intended to generate controversy, it certainly did its job though.

                  Paul
                  Did it?

                  I would imagine that the intended controversy would have been to talk about WHY someone would do that - rather than the controversy of people saying it's just BS and thinking he's a liar.

                  It's perfectly possible that his target audience are complete noobs and he doesn't care what we think.

                  Andy
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                  nothing to see here.

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          • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Steadyon View Post

            It used to be "The server went down during the launch"...."Because of this I still have 73 copies left".

            This has progressed to:

            "The gurus' hacked GoToWebinar to shut me up!"....."So I will have another 3 webinars this week"..... etc....

            It reminds me of the excuses I used to give at school:

            "My dog chewed up my writing pad"

            or

            "I left my bag on the bus"

            or

            "My grandma died".....again.....
            Used to be? Last week during the launch of Google Sniper guess what happened? Yeah - the "server went down". But gee gosh...they got the ******* thing up and running again and were swamped with orders I tell you. Swamped. 1000 punters swarmed in. But be quick cause the server might crack under the load and "we don't know how long we can keep this offer open...be quick...closing soon...don't miss out"...yada yada yada yawn
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            • Profile picture of the author Eager2SEO
              Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

              Used to be? Last week during the launch of Google Sniper guess what happened? Yeah - the "server went down". But gee gosh...they got the ******* thing up and running again and were swamped with orders I tell you. Swamped. 1000 punters swarmed in. But be quick cause the server might crack under the load and "we don't know how long we can keep this offer open...be quick...closing soon...don't miss out"...yada yada yada yawn
              Just open your TV and you will see plenty of examples like this. Buying a a certain car will get you an attractive partner. The entire stadium approves of a product with a loud affirmative. A stage full of beautiful women are drinking a beverage. A crowd attacking a retail store and stripping the shelves before a big sale.

              That is advertising 101 and its not going away. Go to your local library and borrow some ##GASP!## real books(the ones with paper and a binding) on marketing and advertising.

              Band-wagoning, scarcity techniques, free bonuses etc are software for your brain and many people do take action from it. Someone struggling to make a few cents online and sitting on the fence to buy a product may take the plunge because of a message like that. We sit on this forum and talk ration but it is not like that in the real world. Think of your first search for "make money online."

              These techniques seem cookie cutter on the internet.

              • Each launch looks like it derived from a master class (like we say in programming) containing certain basics and the instantiated object(the product) just sets different properties (stories, pictures, screenshots, etc). Even a 60% return rate could be very profitable.
              • A squeeze page to collect emails and give away a free product.
              Obviously those 1 page wonders work well.

              Ethically and legally it is another story. Maybe he renamed index.htm on his server, so it technically went down for a few seconds. He is all clear with the FTC now . With all the promises in those sales letters that is the least of his problems.
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              • Profile picture of the author Eric Louviere
                This seems to me... to be a situation where Harlan tried to be polarizing in his OP. Being polarizing is a good technique IMO but can certainly backfire. There's a fine line when playing that game.

                Dan Kennedy says to offend 30%+ of your market and one of the ways to do that is to be polarizing. Look at celebrities and pro athletes, some are polarizing. I think of Deon Sanders... Brian Bozzworth... Dennis Rodman... Terrel Owens... Maddona... Britney Spears... Sarah Palin... who's that guy on HBO that does Real Time who constantly beats the drum against religion... and the list goes on.

                Reason is there's a lot of "noise" out there in competitive markets... and the herd wants to be entertained, challenged and they want to crucify (throw rocks) at enemies and public figures.

                I remember when John Reese came out with a video years ago that said "multiple streams of income is WRONG!" and this place chimed in big time. Some agreed, many others did not agree with him... but I thought it was brilliant!

                It's very easy to go against the grain, or stir-up debate or spark emotions in a group of people when using controversy or by being polarizing. If in a position of authority (or a guru), you come into a place like this and deliberately piss off a group of people, you'll still get plenty who agree with you and take your side too.

                If anything, it rises you above the noise.

                Again, IMO, it can be a very useful strategy/tactic... but if someone ALWAYS uses that tactic, they can become hated quite quickly, and word travels fast. For example, when John made that video "MSI is wrong" it did not hurt him because he had already done a ton of good in the eyes of the market.

                All in all, at the end of the day, in my opinion, Harlan did not even do a very good job of that at all... and most of this thread is completely fueled by Paul Myers. His responses and posts and advice has sparked "thinking" the rest of us have chimed in and encouraged on.

                Take Paul out of this thread and it would have died FAST IMO! Paul, Ex Rat and Bill P and Andy and the others chiming in is the meat of this thread indeed... not Harlan's OP or responses or strategy at all.

                I sure did not read it to see what Harlan had to say... more what these other folks had to say. Nothing against Harlan (I dont know him) but the responses from Paul and others made this thread interesting to me... and I'm guessing many others here too.

                So... as for hiring him as a copywriter to stir up controversy.... I'd say IMO it was a "swiiiiiiiiiiing and a miss!" However, the social proof for stirring up controversy in this thread was a home run -- but that's because of Paul and others. He did not "plan" on Paul doing that ahead of time when he made that post. He may dress like a monk and have Kern as a friend, but he's not psychic. Or is he?

                ~Primetime
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                • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
                  Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

                  Take Paul out of this thread and it would have died FAST IMO! Paul, Ex Rat and Bill P and Andy and the others chiming in is the meat of this thread indeed... not Harlan's OP or responses or strategy at all.
                  Agreed. In an earlier post, Paul referred to this thread as a lesson in "forum dynamics." As soon as Paul and some of the others you mentioned posted intelligent criticisms, dozens of other people apparently took it as some kind of "Go" signal that it was safe to pile on Harlan with derision and sarcasm... one of the main reasons IMHO that we're now over 400 responses and growing fast.
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                  • Profile picture of the author tpw
                    Originally Posted by Ken Strong View Post

                    some kind of "Go" signal that it was safe to pile on Harlan

                    The tide is definitely flowing against Harlan on this one...

                    But are we piling on, or do more people simply disagree with him this time?
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  • Profile picture of the author ava681
    The Internet changes daily and if you keep following what used to work, you're only gonna get your butt kicked.
    yes i very much agree with this. the interest of the market constantly changes so you have to find new ways how to catch their attention and when you do, make sure you have a good content to keep them coming back and hopefully generate good leads before a new trend of marketing starts
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Ava681,

      Thanks for the reminder. I meant to comment on that line, "The Internet changes daily."

      Yes, it does. But, as a group, human beings don't. The fundamental motivations of the species have been pretty consistent for as long as we're in a position to have observed them. The degree of difficulty in satisfying the various desires changes over time, but the basic goals and drives... Same as they've been throughout recorded history.

      The question then becomes, which desire can you satisfy with the technology available, and how many people can you attract to your solution?


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Ava681,

        Thanks for the reminder. I meant to comment on that line, "The Internet changes daily."

        Yes, it does. But, as a group, human beings don't. The fundamental motivations of the species have been pretty consistent for as long as we're in a position to have observed them. The degree of difficulty in satisfying the various desires changes over time, but the basic goals and drives... Same as they've been throughout recorded history.

        The question then becomes, which desire can you satisfy with the technology available, and how many people can you attract to your solution?


        Paul

        Ha! This may be the most important post for someone new to the net or IM
        to take away from this thread.

        I try to get this across more, as a fundamental school of thought, than even I realize these days.

        The more the world changes the more it stays the same.

        Even me being the slow witted doggie that I am, has come to realize this, as it applies to the Net in general.

        If more people realized this, the less virtual shiney object salesmen there would be.


        Maybe there really are some pearls of wisdom in them thar fancy learnin words o yourn
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    Harlan, you lost a lot of respect that I had for you.

    That's all I gotta say.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post

      Harlan, you lost a lot of respect that I had for you.

      That's all I gotta say.
      The problem is, and this is just my opinion, is that this is a one note
      symphony. Every post from the OP is the same thing with a sig that is
      so ironically hypocritical that I have to sometimes wonder if he's not just
      yanking our chain.

      I don't know and honestly, I don't care. The symphony has gotten old and
      I'm tired of listening to it.

      And yes, shame on me for keep opening up the threads that this OP
      starts.

      Guess like most people, I just love a good train wreck...as ashamed as I
      am to admit it.
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    I'm sure Harlan is laughing right now at how the WF took the bait.

    Garrie
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

      I'm sure Harlan is laughing right now at how the WF took the bait.

      Garrie

      And it may work out well for him, providing that his target audience takes his original post at face value and does not bother to read any comments...

      But then again, only a percentage of the folks are that sheepish...
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      • Profile picture of the author Anthony Scorza
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        And it may work out well for him, providing that his target audience takes his original post at face value and does not bother to read any comments...

        But then again, only a percentage of the folks are that sheepish...
        Ah, but there you have it Bill.

        He only needs a small percentage to make this kind of thing work, and those who form that percentage will follow very enthusiastically because "he's on their side".
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  • Profile picture of the author PVReymond
    This is thread is really interesting and has divided the
    opinions.

    Harlan touched some good points. I think some gurus are
    clueless and sell you stuff that they never event test while
    others are doing a great job so you have to know how to
    separate them.

    If you buy a product from a guru and what he teaches doesn't
    work why in the world you would buy from him again?

    You can fall into the trap once but not twice so it is up to
    you.

    Thanks,
    ^PV Reymond
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
    Banned
    When I first read that post, I assumed the OP was just being sarcastic since most posts from him have been defending gurus.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike McAleer
    This is exactly what I believe. There is so much free info out there that is better than half of the WSO's combined. I think people need to strap down and get working on something other than to keep reading worthless info products that will get them nowhere but into a hole of debt.
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    I'm on HK's webinar now. After 26 minutes he's still waffling...repeating stuff he's said before...no revelations. Ranting about the nasty gurus who are scamming everyone. I've posted the question "Ok - so who are these "gurus"? He sees the question and says "No relevant questions". LOL. Stay tuned campers...

    says "On Clickbank today I'm not seeing anything that's legit"

    Says if you search on Google for "alternative treatments for cancer" you get a few million results. Too many results for you to find what's relevant. I ask if he's doing a "Broad Search". Ignores question. I Google it. Get 116 million broad results as opposed to 64k for "phrase search" keywords in inverted commas.

    This is cutting edge stuff folks. more...

    Now he's talking about "The Drudge Report" linking out and not having any content of its own. "He's aggregating his site" - collects news stories from various sources.

    I think he's getting ready to tell us the "big secret" any minute. I'm on the edge of my seat Dude.

    "Google does not love Drudge".

    Now he's on about "Huffington Post". Doing better than Drudge and Google LOVES it. Has guest bloggers and fresh content. "'It outranks the sites it takes the content from" (and rewrites it so its not plagiarism and covered under the "free use" laws".

    "Huff Post just sold for $315 Million" - outperforming all the online newspapers and all the news sites. Here it comes - the BIG secret -

    "we are becoming the curation nation". There is even a full-time curator at YouTube" (gasp!)

    "But curation must be done ethically"

    "that means we don't scrape content"

    "we don't plagiarise"

    He says Google are going after autoblogs (yawn)

    [coming up to one hour of this crap]

    "best business to be in is the curation business - you'll create fans"

    "curated sites are super popular"

    [The webinar is breaking up. I blame Gaddafi ]

    "here's a list of curator sites - Mashable, Mac Rumors, WineBusiness.com, OnTheSnow.com, GaGaNews, ScubaDiveInfo.com"

    "totally different from the guru model"

    "guru model doesn't work any more"

    "they're ignoring that the internet has changed"

    "They don't know how to run a facebook fan page"

    Harlan's fan page has "for just over a week 2440 people liking the page"

    "Curation for me is the Wild Wild West"

    "we have 5 curation sites going"

    "one is on the second page of Google"

    "doing the same thing Huffington Post is doing"

    "super Google friendly"

    "Our goal is to become a Google authority site - with fresh unique content and linking back to the sources (with some software)"

    [my guess is he's going to ask for the order soon]

    "You can have your own site and sell affiliate offers"

    "If you're in Beach Millions I'm going to give you this software"

    "doesn't take very long - 13-20 minutes a day"

    "this is about delivering high-quality content day after day"

    "this is the future my friends"

    "I'm selling you what I'm doing myself and what my closest friends are doing"

    blah blah blah

    "I'm keeping this small"
    "the gurus don't know about this" [ROFL]

    "I'm not selling this in a big launch 'cause I want you to be the one...
    "I'm strictly limiting...

    "two ways to work with me - add it your site or dominate a niche" (?)

    "I'll work with you one on one for 8 weeks building your business. Thats what this is about. This is for people who want to dominate a BIG niche. We're going after major niches."

    Also offering group coaching.

    its priced so that you can afford it. http://blogcuration.com

    "I just want ten people for the One on One program"

    Special discounts for BeachMillions member. Group coaching is free.

    $2000 for the one on one coaching. Half an hour a week for 8 weeks. Using Skype

    Group coaching $497 including the software.

    [So there you go. I was right. Spamming the board. Out] 1 hour,20 minutes of my short life spent.

    "How the clueless throw away their money".
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    • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

      I'm on HK's webinar now. After 26 minutes he's still waffling...repeating stuff he's said before...no revelations. Ranting about the nasty gurus who are scamming everyone. I've posted the question "Ok - so who are these "gurus"? He sees the question and says "No relevant questions". LOL. Stay tuned campers...

      says "On Clickbank today I'm not seeing anything that's legit"
      Mal' takin' one for the team.

      Is it looking like the gooroo's are about to hijack that webinar as well?

      Rob
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

      "we are becoming the curation nation". There is even a full-time curator at YouTube" (gasp!)

      "But curation must be done ethically"

      ...

      "best business to be in is the curation business - you'll create fans"

      "curated sites are super popular"

      ...

      "here's a list of curator sites - Mashable, Mac Rumors, WineBusiness.com, OnTheSnow.com, GaGaNews, ScubaDiveInfo.com"

      ...

      "Curation for me is the Wild Wild West"

      "we have 5 curation sites going"

      ...

      "doing the same thing Huffington Post is doing"
      Mal,

      This is straight out of the AOL/Huffington Post playbook.

      Pay attention at the 7:20 mark...

      Charlie Rose - Arianna Huffington and Tim Armstrong

      So the WORD is "Curation".

      Yup, nobody as ever thought of that one before...:rolleyes:

      ~Bill
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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

        This is straight out of the AOL/Huffington Post playbook.

        Pay attention at the 7:20 mark...
        Oh - the bit where they talk about Curation?

        Hey - they say great minds think alike

        I've heard it mentioned several times before but it still hasn't really grabbed me, but then again I'm already busy with my own business so I'm not looking for the next big thing from someone else.
        Signature

        nothing to see here.

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        • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
          Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

          Oh - the bit where they talk about Curation?

          Hey - they say great minds think alike

          I've heard it mentioned several times before but it still hasn't really grabbed me, but then again I'm already busy with my own business so I'm not looking for the next big thing from someone else.
          You know, this thread has given me some ideas.
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          • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
            This thread is hilarious. I love that the MODs and the members called Harlan out on his blatant spamming.

            Btw Harlan, was "curation" really the word? As others have mentioned, thats hardly a new term or idea in IM. I'm a newbie to this forum, and I've seen it a few times in other threads already. Nice try though :rolleyes:
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              I'm a newbie to this forum, and I've seen it a few times in other threads already
              I don't think I've ever seen that word used for the concept. It fits, and lends a specific feel to the thing that works, but it's not new. I've mentioned a project I'm working on to a few people here that's based on the same idea. I referred to it as going back to what I was doing more than 10 years ago.

              By the way... The example of The Huffington Post? When that was sold for $300M+, several people here pointed out that anyone could create the same sort of authority site. Of course, it would help to have the money and media access of an Arianna Huffington.

              If Harlan can deliver a system for doing something like that effectively, that might well be worth having for folks who don't know how. It's sort of like a monster version of a Google News site. There are a lot of things that have to be considered when planning such a thing.

              So, the product might have the value he claims, but the spin just doesn't hold up.


              Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author drmani
          Word of caution.

          Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!

          A long time ago, in 2006 I believe, I read an excellent ebook
          by Robin Good about "News Mastering" called The News Masters
          Toolkit.

          (Yes, Google IS my friend! A quick search showed this:

          The Birth Of The NewsMaster: The Network Starts To Organize Itself

          It was 2004, actually! And sadly, the ebook is no longer for sale)

          This was (at the time) a mind-blowing concept - and tied in to
          the RSS revolution. There was so much packed into that little
          20 pages or so ebook that it kept me awake for many long nights
          thinking about how I could harness its power.

          'Curation' is at the core of that - and it is a model that works
          very well indeed.

          Research it. See how it can work for you. And then you may well
          consider your time spent consuming the drama and theater on
          this thread quite a worthy investment

          All success
          Dr.Mani
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          • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
            Originally Posted by drmani View Post

            It was 2004, actually! And sadly, the ebook is no longer for sale)

            This was (at the time) a mind-blowing concept - and tied in to
            the RSS revolution. There was so much packed into that little
            20 pages or so ebook that it kept me awake for many long nights
            thinking about how I could harness its power.

            'Curation' is at the core of that - and it is a model that works
            very well indeed.
            2004, you say? Well, then it cannot possibly work because...

            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

            They are teaching the same model that they learned in 2004.

            None of the stuff they are teaching works today.

            [...snip...]

            The gurus only move ahead by looking BACKWARDS.
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            • Profile picture of the author Harlan
              You've kept this thread going for four days?

              Fantastic.

              I'm going to record my thoughts on curation and post them on my curation site in a few days.

              Hopefully, that will provoke at least another week of posts.

              Back to curating my sites...
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            • Profile picture of the author Zanti
              I've been doing some heavy research for the past several days. So when the word Curation came up here, I keep asking myself when did I just read something about that a few days ago. It was something in a post that I ran across that was done last year 2010 and it does related to internet marketing. I saved it on my computer but not the source.

              If only I had said the word was Curation before the webinar, I could have won the prize. Oh wait there wasn't a prize was there. Darn.

              Brian

              This is what I found, some interesting stuff.


              Content marketing, the publishing of relevant, link-worthy content, has been all the rage for marketing professionals for several years. A recent survey conducted by content marketing authority Junta42 shows that companies, especially small businesses, are continuing to spend more on content marketing each year because it is more effective than traditional marketing for differentiation in the marketplace. Leads, sales and client retention are better achieved when companies are resources for their customers and help solve their pain points.
              Now, the new wave of content marketing has arrived: content curation.
              What is content curation?

              Rohit Bhargava defines a content curator as someone whocontinually finds, groups, organizes and shares the best and most relevant content on a specific issue online.
              The term “content curation” stems from traditional museum curation: museum curators collect art and artifacts and identify the most relevant or important to be displayed in an exhibit for the public. Museum curators are subject-matter experts with higher levels of education that guide an organization’s overall art collection. Curation has also, historically, referred to overseeing the care and preservation of precious collectibles.
              With the overwhelming amount of content available on the Internet today, it is difficult for professionals to efficiently manage their daily reading activities, as well as separate useful and accurate content from poor content. This is where content curation comes in, allowing individuals or businesses to provide a valuable service to their audiences by addressing their need for quality content and the lack of available time to find it.

              Further, by sharing the most relevant, thought-provoking online content, curation can establish individuals and companies as authorities and thought leaders. Content curation can enable individuals and companies to stand out in the marketplace and influence buyer behavior during a time when everyone is fighting for recognition.
              The content curation debate

              Content curation has received increased attention recently from marketers and journalists, as well as traditional museum curators. In fact, Pete Cashmore, CEO of Mashable, believes that content curation is one of the top 10 Web trends for 2010. Other thought-leadership pieces that have fueled the curation discussion include:
              There is a mix of acceptance and reluctance surrounding content curation, and much of the debate revolves around the value of a content curator.
              Curation: The purists vs. the realists

              There is a certain level of “intellectual snobbery” in existence from the point of view of traditional museum curators (the “purists”). Many museum curators have PhDs in their area of expertise, and believe that it is only with the highest level of education, and many years of research and experience, that one can be a true curator.
              With the term “curator” evolving into the online space, digital content curators (the “realists”) believe that content curation is a legitimate practice and that its value is evident.
              Museum curators argue that, when applied to digital content, the term curation is a bit of a stretch, and that content curators are simply filters of information. Marketing influentials disagree and believe that, using a high level of industry expertise, content curators can provide the same value as a museum curator to their own industries.
              Social sharing: Aggregation vs. curation

              Sharing dynamic content over social media platforms such as Twitter and Facebook has become a common practice. However, many people, even in the digital world, believe that merely sharing information over social networks is not curation; that without applying high-level expert analysis when selecting content, sharing information is actually filtering or aggregating information, not curating.
              Online influencers who actively participate in curation defend their positions as curators, given their extensive industry knowledge and experience.
              On the flip side, for some people, curation has become a fancy way of describing simple aggregation and filtering. Also, many people are using aggregation and curation interchangeably to describe curation as the concept really catches on.
              Content curation in journalism: The traditionalists vs. the futurists

              There is no question that the traditional news outlet has suffered with the emergence of the Internet, as has the ability of journalists to continue making a living writing. The futurists in the journalism world believe that journalists must evolve with technology and audience behavior, and that content curation is one way that they can do so.
              Jeff Jarvis, a journalism professor and author of What Would Google Do?, has talked at length about the journalist as a curator on his blog BuzzMachine. He believes that curation is a way in which journalists can provide additional value to their audiences.
              To support this, Paul Gillin, veteran journalist and author of The New Influencers andSecrets of Social Media Marketing, suggests that journalists must learn to curate because their audiences are no longer looking for more content, but for ways to manage existing content. Curation can help journalists stay relevant.
              Further, the emergence of online news powerhouses such as The Huffington Post and Newser have approached the need for quality information by curating the best news articles from major outlets across the Web. Traditionalist Rupert Murdoch has fought hard against search engines and aggregation as a means of protecting the traditional news outlet. Newser’s Michael Wolff argues that online news curators are signs of changing audience behavior, and that traditionalists such as Murdoch will lose out in the end.
              Automated content curation

              Robert’s Scoble article, “The Seven Needs of Real-Time Curators,” recently brought the challenges associated with curation to the forefront. While curation is a fantastic way to bring value to your audience and establish yourself or your company as a thought leader, curation can be time consuming and inefficient.
              Many people collect industry information by monitoring Twitter and Facebook, or subscribing to RSS feeds or news alerts, which aggregate content according to keywords. For the busy marketing professional, who is often on the road or attending to clients, the task of curating great content from a flood of aggregated content on a daily basis just isn’t a viable option.
              Companies such as HiveFire* have addressed the need for curation automation by creating content curation platforms that automatically aggregate and prioritize content, allowing the marketer to focus on curation rather than sorting through high volumes of disorganized content. This functionality enables marketers to effectively and efficiently curate, and makes content curation a viable marketing option.
              Curated searching

              The need to more efficiently sort through information has become so important that search engines are starting to organize search results in more intuitive ways.
              Bing recently announced that it will roll out and test several new features this spring. One of the updates allows Bing to essentially “curate” search results by refining them into categorized topics that it anticipates users are most likely looking for, and listing the most relevant content at the top of the page.
              For example, let’s say I’m planning a vacation to Maui. When I search for “Maui,” in the left column I retrieve relevant categories, or “Quick Tabs,” which include topics such as news, hotels, airports and real estate. Bing has assumed that I am likely a traveler, or a resident looking for news or possibly real estate opportunities, and has anticipated the intent of my search by providing me with information it believes will be most beneficial.

              Bing may not be hand-selecting articles for users as content curators do; however, like companies aim to influence buyer behavior through content curation, Bing is trying to help users make informed decisions with minimal effort. This change in methodology demonstrates a major shift in audience needs and a new approach to searcher intent. People want access to great information without a lot of time and effort.
              What is the future of content curation?

              While content curation is in its early stages and there is a lot of debate surrounding the concept, it has clearly been established as a trend worth talking about. Curation will continue to gain momentum as more marketers start incorporating curation into their content marketing strategies and major Web outlets enhance their features to address changing user needs. Online influencers that believe content curation is here to stay will stand behind it and continue to advocate for its value.
              What are your thoughts on content curation? Does it provide value and help individuals and companies establish thought leadership? Are you currently implementing content curation as part of your content marketing strategy? The debate continues here, so let us know your thoughts.
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              • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                Originally Posted by Zanti View Post

                In fact, Pete Cashmore, CEO of Mashable, believes that content curation is one of the top 10 Web trends for 2010.
                Obviously the good Mr. Cashmore doesn't live at the beach...:rolleyes:

                ~Bill
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      • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

        Mal,

        This is straight out of the AOL/Huffington Post playbook.

        Pay attention at the 7:20 mark...

        Charlie Rose - Arianna Huffington and Tim Armstrong

        So the WORD is "Curation".

        Yup, nobody as ever thought of that one before...:rolleyes:

        ~Bill
        Yes well HK did publish a book called "Steal This Book" - which is a title he nicked from Abbie Hoffman the Yippie - Amazon.com: Steal This Book (9781568582177):...Amazon.com: Steal This Book (9781568582177):...
        I took him at face value and downloaded it for free from a torrent site. Harlan's that is.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
        Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

        So the WORD is "Curation".

        Yup, nobody as ever thought of that one before...:rolleyes:
        He did have the disclaimer that it was something no one on the Warrior Forum knew about.

        So, I guess everyone here only knows about Drudge.
        Signature

        Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

      I
      "Huff Post just sold for $315 Million" - outperforming all the online newspapers and all the news sites. Here it comes - the BIG secret -

      "we are becoming the curation nation". There is even a full-time curator at YouTube" (gasp!)

      "But curation must be done ethically"

      "that means we don't scrape content"

      "we don't plagiarise"

      He says Google are going after autoblogs (yawn)

      [coming up to one hour of this crap]

      "best business to be in is the curation business - you'll create fans"

      "curated sites are super popular"

      [The webinar is breaking up. I blame Gaddafi ]

      "here's a list of curator sites - Mashable, Mac Rumors, WineBusiness.com, OnTheSnow.com, GaGaNews, ScubaDiveInfo.com"

      "totally different from the guru model"

      "guru model doesn't work any more"

      "they're ignoring that the internet has changed"

      "They don't know how to run a facebook fan page"

      Harlan's fan page has "for just over a week 2440 people liking the page"

      "Curation for me is the Wild Wild West"

      "we have 5 curation sites going"

      "one is on the second page of Google"

      "doing the same thing Huffington Post is doing"

      "super Google friendly"

      "Our goal is to become a Google authority site - with fresh unique content and linking back to the sources (with some software)"

      [my guess is he's going to ask for the order soon]

      "You can have your own site and sell affiliate offers"

      "If you're in Beach Millions I'm going to give you this software"

      "doesn't take very long - 13-20 minutes a day"

      "this is about delivering high-quality content day after day"

      "this is the future my friends"

      "I'm selling you what I'm doing myself and what my closest friends are doing"

      blah blah blah

      "I'm keeping this small"
      "the gurus don't know about this" [ROFL]

      "I'm not selling this in a big launch 'cause I want you to be the one...
      "I'm strictly limiting...

      "two ways to work with me - add it your site or dominate a niche" (?)

      "I'll work with you one on one for 8 weeks building your business. Thats what this is about. This is for people who want to dominate a BIG niche. We're going after major niches."

      Also offering group coaching.

      its priced so that you can afford it. Blog Curation | Just another WordPress site

      "I just want ten people for the One on One program"

      Special discounts for BeachMillions member. Group coaching is free.

      $2000 for the one on one coaching. Half an hour a week for 8 weeks. Using Skype

      Group coaching $497 including the software.

      [So there you go. I was right. Spamming the board. Out] 1 hour,20 minutes of my short life spent.

      "How the clueless throw away their money".
      Sounds like he's hawking nothing more than a glorified autoblog...perhaps that's why he had to go through this big song and dance to convince us it was something so much more than that!

      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
        Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

        Sounds like he's hawking nothing more than a glorified autoblog...perhaps that's why he had to go through this big song and dance to convince us it was something so much more than that!
        Apparently, this is all a rehash of other people's ideas.

        Is anything really new?

        Oh yea, the packaging...

        ~Bill
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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

          Apparently, this is all a rehash of other people's ideas.

          Is anything really new?

          Oh yea, the packaging...

          ~Bill
          That's how trash gets recycled, and this is especially shameful, coming from a self-professed "anti-guru" who is pretty outspoken about that fact.

          Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
        Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

        Sounds like he's hawking nothing more than a glorified autoblog...perhaps that's why he had to go through this big song and dance to convince us it was something so much more than that!
        Well, now you can call yourself a website "curator."

        But, be careful, because I think that may also mean you need to replace your wardrobe with tweed, wear your pants up to your chest and stock up on Depends.
        Signature

        Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

          Well, now you can call yourself a website "curator."

          But, be careful, because I think that may also mean you need to replace your wardrobe with tweed, wear your pants up to your chest and stock up on Depends.
          It's funny how people try to employ terms like "curator" to hoodwink the clueless and ignorant.

          They're basically just dressing it up in a fancier and more luxurious package, sort of like how Toyota dresses up a Camry and transforms it into a Lexus.

          Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author nando1125
      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

      I'm on HK's webinar now. After 26 minutes he's still waffling...repeating stuff he's said before...no revelations. Ranting about the nasty gurus who are scamming everyone. I've posted the question "Ok - so who are these "gurus"? He sees the question and says "No relevant questions". LOL. Stay tuned campers...{snip}

      Lmfaoo I lol'd in real life
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  • Profile picture of the author robs132
    Thoroughly enjoyed reading that. It's one of those threads where you think is all publicity really good publicity?
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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
    Uh - so could someone smarter than me tell me what I'm missing?

    How is this - "curation" - you know, this:

    "Our goal is to become a Google authority site - with fresh unique content and linking back to the sources (with some software)"
    ...any different than what a majority of people are doing - or trying to do - or at the very least know about - on the Warrior Forum?

    Rob

    EDIT: Ok, reading the Huffington - Charlie Rose interview -

    And the Internet in the future we believe that`s
    going to be about content.
    Um - again, when was it not?

    I'm actually only being "partially" sarcastic here. I really want to know if I'm missing something.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

      I'm actually only being "partially" sarcastic here. I really want to know if I'm missing something.
      Yes, you are. Curation is one letter shorter than authority. Completely different. Pay attention.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
        Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

        Yes, you are. Curation is one letter shorter than authority. Completely different. Pay attention.
        Ok gotcha.

        So - instead of autoblogging, I'll get my content and use my brain to spin it and improve on the quality so people want to read it.

        HOLY CRAP!

        I just had a light bulb!

        Oh wait, never mind. That was just a light flicker in the room.

        Rob
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
          Originally Posted by ccmusicman View Post

          I just had a light bulb!

          Oh wait, never mind. That was just a light flicker in the room.
          Well, then it sounds like you might be clueless and need to throw away your money on someone's product.
          Signature

          Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

          Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author matborhan
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by matborhan View Post

      sometimes maybe it's true.
      Now, that's the way to take a firm stance on an issue while carefully straddling the fence.
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      • Profile picture of the author AnitaCross
        Originally Posted by Eric Louviere View Post

        Take Paul out of this thread and it would have died FAST IMO! Paul, Ex Rat and Bill P and Andy and the others chiming in is the meat of this thread indeed... not Harlan's OP or responses or strategy at all.

        I sure did not read it to see what Harlan had to say... more what these other folks had to say. Nothing against Harlan (I dont know him) but the responses from Paul and others made this thread interesting to me... and I'm guessing many others here too.
        It was Bill P that got me reading this thread in the first place.

        I'd like to thank The Copy Nazi for donating 1:20:00 of his time to bring us a play by play of the webinar. That was a significant sacrifice, as his time could have been spent actually making money.

        I found a couple of definitions for the word "curation"
        The professional care of monuments, objects or other archaeological materials on behalf of a general or specific public or organization. ~Answers.com
        And from wiktionary.org
        1. The act of curating, of organizing and maintaining a collection of artworks or artifacts.
        2. The act of curing or healing.
        3. (databases) The manual updating of information in a database.
        Well, 2 and 3 definitely don't fit...

        I don't think what he is selling is really "curation".

        I do think he's just redefining an existing word to make the same old rehashed tripe look like something new and exciting. (No offense intended to tripe.)

        It sounds exactly like one of those nasty gurus to me!

        -Anita
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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
    Harlen doesn't surprise me...

    But you know what IS surprising to me? Huffington acting like this is all new and wonderful.

    I mean, they just sold their biz for 350 million or whatever...

    Is the only difference between that and what some warriors are doing was go out and get some venture capital (1 million of it) and then go be in Zeus's Adsense/Blogging Class and build Huffingtonpost? lol

    Goes to show you that if some people actually apply what they learn they could end up selling their website for 350 mil.

    Rob
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by matborhan View Post

      sometimes maybe it's true.
      Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

      Now, that's the way to take a firm stance on an issue while carefully straddling the fence.
      And adding an affiliate ID link to his sig...
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      • Profile picture of the author Rob Howard
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        And adding an affiliate ID link to his sig...
        Well at least he isn't just inflating his post count

        Rob
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Several pages ago, Paul (Myers) raised the idea of what value being a "target" might have. Been pondering that...

        Seems like one way to build yourself up to be ten feet tall and bulletproof is to take on the biggest, nastiest enemy you can. If these big, powerful cartel members are working this hard to shut him up, it must mean he's pretty damn important and so is his message.

        Combine cult-building and pro wrestling, and you get the "I'm the chosen one and I will save you all, in spite of the mighty opposition arrayed against me. WE will overcome this, because we have right, truth and justice on our side, and I will lead you..." yada, yada, yada...

        It's worked for several political and religious figures over the last few centuries...
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        • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
          Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

          If these big, powerful cartel members are working this hard to shut him up, it must mean he's pretty damn important and so is his message.
          For some reason I'm having a hard time believing this "they're out to get me" stuff.

          And the flip side of love isn't hate, it's apathy.

          They must still love him...

          Originally Posted by AnitaCross View Post

          I don't think what he is selling is really "curation".


          I do think he's just redefining an existing word to make the same old rehashed tripe look like something new and exciting. (No offense intended to tripe.)


          He's not the one 'redefining' the term.

          That was done already.

          He's just hanging on to its' coat tails.

          ~Bill
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          • Profile picture of the author paulie888
            Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post



            He's not the one 'redefining' the term.

            That was done already.

            He's just hanging on to its' coat tails.

            ~Bill
            Definitely, he's not imparting any new meaning to the term. He's just trying to dazzle impressionable prospects into thinking he's got something new and groundbreaking for them.

            Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
            Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

            For some reason I'm having a hard time believing this "they're out to get me" stuff.

            And the flip side of love isn't hate, it's apathy.

            They must still love him...

            ~Bill
            Blatantly stealing a line from a classic song...

            "What's love got to do with it?"

            I don't believe those who make targets (real or imagined) of themselves are looking for love. They're looking for stature and authority. Offering oneself up as a target gives the ability to respond to every shot with "see, I told you they were out to get me."

            You can't have a crusade without an adversary, and the bigger the enemy, the better - especially when 'the enemy' is a poorly defined group that is keeping the minions from their rightful place in the world.

            Being a target for the shots of those trying to hold the minions down also stirs (or tries to stir) obligation. "They're trying to get you, but I'm willing to take the arrows for you."

            It can be a dangerous game, though, because there's a fine line between "obligation" and "hate."
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    So, the only things worth learning are how to get traffic and how to construct a compelling offer.
    Fixed that for ya!

    Have a Great Day!
    Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author JD Nunes
    I don't even pay attention to new launches anymore. Better to just do your own thing with what you know works...
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      That's his big secret? In 1997 I was calling it "collation hosting," when done as a website. Or my newsletter, when done via email. (Different format back then.)

      He's right about the power of the thing, but he's way off on the originality...


      Paul
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      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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      • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        That's his big secret? In 1997 I was calling it "collation hosting," when done as a website. Or my newsletter, when done via email. (Different format back then.)

        He's right about the power of the thing, but he's way off on the originality...


        Paul
        Remember his post about all autoblogs steal a few weeks ago?
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        SAVEABUCKDOMAINS & DOLLARDOMAINSAVINGS
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Garrie,
          Remember his post about all autoblogs steal a few weeks ago?
          Yeah. Another of those "Every one of them" that turned into "The ones that do X, Y, and Z."


          Paul
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          Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

          Remember his post about all autoblogs steal a few weeks ago?
          Of course, so that he distances himself away from those nasty autoblogs, he's pulled out this new-fangled "curation" term from his hat to bedazzle and con the masses.
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          • Profile picture of the author tpw
            Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

            Of course, so that he distances himself away from those nasty autoblogs, he's pulled out this new-fangled "curation" term from his hat to bedazzle and con the masses.

            Most Internet users have a reading level of the 8th grade. I did not learn "curation" until I went to college.

            LOL
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            • Profile picture of the author paulie888
              Originally Posted by tpw View Post

              Most Internet users have a reading level of the 8th grade. I did not learn "curation" until I went to college.

              LOL
              Thanks Bill, this drives home my contention that he's intentionally using this term to bedazzle and overwhelm the impressionable masses who only read at an 8th grade level.
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  • Profile picture of the author JustinAtlan
    Be transparent.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
    Re-reading the OP and inverting the main points made for a more
    positive/interesting read in my book...lol

    Here are a few examples starting with the the Thread Title:

    OP: How The Clueless Throw Away Their Money
    Inverted: How The Gurus Rake In Cash

    OP: Internet marketing died but the gurus didn't tell you that.
    Inverted: Internet marketing is alive and well and the gurus keep telling you so.

    OP: They've inflated a corpse and put in in the passengers seat so they can ride in the fast lane while everyone else is stuck in traffic.
    Inverted:They have continued to make money while everyone else figures it out.

    OP: From time to time they wave its hand to convince you it's alive.
    Inverted: From time to time they show you something to prove it.

    OP:Let me prove it.
    First, most of the Internet marketing gurus are clueless. A year ago, a number of them killed their Facebook and Twitter accounts as a waste of time and that Social Media will never make money.

    Inverted: First, most of the Internet marketing gurus know their $hit. A couple
    of years ago, a number of them started on Facebook and Twitter
    silently making thousands of dollars and figured that social media
    was the future!


    OP: Now, they are back on Social Media and the only money coming in is thru Social Media.
    Umm, Because it is still working and they are making even more money than the initial TESTING INDICATED.

    Have a Great Day!
    Michael
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  • Profile picture of the author zerofill
    All I got out of the OP was a technique (way of writing in this instance) that used to work... that doesn't now...
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
      Originally Posted by zerofill View Post

      All I got out of the OP was a technique (way of writing in this instance) that used to work... that doesn't now...
      I'm not sure using the phrase used to work would be correct. I believe it still works.
      Maybe not to the masses it used to although, then again there are more
      people coming online line now than there were a few years ago...?

      Have a Great Day!
      Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author zerofill
        Originally Posted by Michael Mayo View Post

        I'm not sure using the phrase used to work would be correct. I believe it still works.
        Maybe not to the masses it used to although, then again there are more
        people coming online line now than there were a few years ago...?

        Have a Great Day!
        Michael
        Your right Michael... I probably should have phrased it more like... Doesn't work on the scale I would want it to to bother with it. like the scale it did in 2004 etc... Concepts are still similar you just need to refine it a bit for the here and now.

        I know a guy that in every video he makes he announces it as he is an SEO expert and in every pdf he makes etc... This does tend to work on the new people out there. As a matter of fact he has a large number of people that in their own minds are convinced he is the #1 expert on SEO.

        Not to sound arrogant or anything, because people that know me also know I am about as far from that as you can get... BUT... he doesn't really know jack $hit except how to convince people he does. (Not a bad skill to have though)

        ...I consider myself an expert at nothing... and this is why...

        I have never believed anyone was an expert, guru, etc...

        They may be well informed, on top of their game, know a lot from testing, but expert or Guru mean something different to me then a lot of people. To me it basically means you know everything there is to know about at least 1 topic... I mean everything that you could know based on current information on the subject that is available.

        That is my definition... probably not the definition everyone else would agree with.

        People have told me... "Don your the smartest guy I know..."

        How many people do you know? Because I know plenty of people that are smarter than me. Not on every subject, but in general knowledge...

        Some people think others are smarter when really the only thing that separates them from this person they look up to is mindset. Just because someone has more money than you do does not mean they are an expert or smarter than you.

        I know I am going to make such and such money this month or this year.

        How??

        Hell sometimes I do not really know... I am often overcome with a disorder I call "Chaos Brain."

        Controlling chaos brain is a bitch...

        However I know I am going to accomplish whatever goal before I actually accomplish it.

        Does this mean I really will?

        Yeah it does... in my mind.

        That is the way I approach everything... If you can make yourself approach things in this way you're good to go. I said it once before... I don't go into something wondering if I will make money doing it. I only go into things wondering "how much" money I will make.

        Anyone is capable of making money online. The biggest thing is whether they are committed to busting their ass and spending ungodly numbers of hours setting things up, testing, or teaching someone else to do it via outsourcing.

        "The guru scene" as I saw it referred to earlier, isn't a scene at all... it's just branding that people turn into "The Gurus" in their own mind. Branding yourself as an expert even if you aren't... (Like the guy I mentioned earlier in all his videos and ebooks)

        It seems like most people's concept of a guru is people that sell $1k+ products. If a product is worth $1k+ it doesn't have a 30%-40% refund rate. So if the people you consider a Guru have refunds like this, or they need to use a processor for payments that requires the processor to have multiple merchant accounts of it's own in multiple names... They aren't Gurus... not even really good used car salesmen. I don't consider people intelligent that are marketing products by law of averages when it comes to refunds.

        As far as buying products from people...

        First off if you are desperate for money you don't turn to an online marketing ebook or course to solve your problems from ANYONE...

        You don't buy a F'ing thing from anyone if you are desperate. Why? because you will almost always make the wrong decision.

        A perfect example of this would be someone that most people know that have crappy credit and buy a car from a pay weekly car lot. How often does the car suck? They were desperate and got what desperation gives as a reward in most cases.

        So people that are desperate typically don't succeed by buying products from ANYONE AT ALL!!!

        People that want to start a business but can already pay their bills, or want to supplement their income that can already pay the bills, succeed.

        People that are desperate but learn from trial and error succeed. Trial and error as in trying things for themselves... not buying things to try.

        If you are going to buy a product from someone you should already have a stable income. You don't buy it because you feel it is the last ditch effort for you to succeed.

        There is enough info on this forum, and other marketing forums and blogs that you can start to see some level of success before buying anything form anyone. Granted you have to weed through a lot of garbage to find it no matter where you look. However that info is free and can normally be tested for free.

        Once you have some track record of success even if it is only $50 a week... then you can start looking at maybe some tool, or ebook, that may help you increase your earnings. Preferrably if you are making $50 a week you buy a tool that just helps you scale that technique first.

        This is why I rarely post anywhere anymore though (that and time)... Everyone has to deal with me going all over the place and babbling...
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    Was going to pop in and say how boring this all is to me, but that's just me but then everyone started talking about "curation" and I was like, what the hell?

    Yes, not really heard of the term used in this way referring to internet sites like Huffington Post. Could become a buzzword I suppose. But yeah, interesting, obviously I've heard of the word just not used in this way. Just seems like a fancy way of saying we chose what we think is best and give it to you. I dunno, just seems like a funny term to use as I haven't heard it used this way. Just funny as he made it sound like such an important, important thing they do and an important part of their business model, "curation."

    But that's just me!
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by redicelander View Post

      Was going to pop in and say how boring this all is to me, but that's just me but then everyone started talking about "curation" and I was like, what the hell?

      Yes, not really heard of the term used in this way referring to internet sites like Huffington Post. Could become a buzzword I suppose. But yeah, interesting, obviously I've heard of the word just not used in this way. Just seems like a fancy way of saying we chose what we think is best and give it to you. I dunno, just seems like a funny term to use as I haven't heard it used this way. Just funny as he made it sound like such an important, important thing they do and an important part of their business model, "curation."

      But that's just me!
      Well, this makes the task sound immeasurably more complex and sophisticated than it is, and this is precisely the type of impression he is trying to make on the masses.

      It has only recently been used on online content, to the best of my knowledge, and I suppose he's on the cutting edge by being one of the first to use it in IM. I have also seen it employed by Apple and other online content stores/providers/aggregators in reference to curating the applications/games/content that are provided, but other than that I don't think this term has been used widely online.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Paul,
        Well, this makes the task sound immeasurably more complex and sophisticated than it is, and this is precisely the type of impression he is trying to make on the masses.
        Doing it right on a large scale would definitely be an involved process. It's not as simple as it might seem at first glance.
        It has only recently been used on online content
        Not an accurate statement. The tools to do it manageably on a large scale are relatively recent, but this isn't anything new in terms of the concept.

        The potential is much larger than it used to be, due to the reach of the net and the power of the available technology. That introduces levels of complexity that may well warrant an in-depth training. This assumes, of course, that the person doing it has the experience to know the potential pitfalls and how to avoid them. Content development is a whole other issue worthy of careful attention.

        I've been working on an idea for a site like this for a while, and the background stuff is more work than the actual deployment.


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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Paul,Doing it right on a large scale would definitely be an involved process. It's not as simple as it might seem at first glance.Not an accurate statement. The tools to do it manageably on a large scale are relatively recent, but this isn't anything new in terms of the concept.

          The potential is much larger than it used to be, due to the reach of the net and the power of the available technology. That introduces levels of complexity that may well warrant an in-depth training. This assumes, of course, that the person doing it has the experience to know the potential pitfalls and how to avoid them. Content development is a whole other issue worthy of careful attention.

          I've been working on an idea for a site like this for a while, and the background stuff is more work than the actual deployment.


          Paul
          I know, the statement was more in reference to the tool that he is peddling than to large-scale curated sites like the Huffington Post. I'm well aware that something on that scale requires massive manpower and resources to implement properly.

          In addition, I was referencing the usage of the term, not the concept, which has been around for a long time. It's obvious he is employing it to impress the masses who have seldom heard of this term in IM circles, and that was the point I was trying to make.

          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author paulie888
            Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

            Inferences ain't implications, Paul.
            Of course they aren't, Ken. I'm merely providing my opinion and hypothesis on his usage of the term.
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            • Profile picture of the author Esteem Ladder
              Okay, I would choose this thread for my first post - may not be the wisest move. Been gawking around here for a while but have also been in the IM game for some time. All spin aside, the game is changing. Some things that worked even a few months ago aren't working as well. Unfortunately, this industry remains in the same state as our culture - hype is King. Lady Gaga and her egg taxi and prosthetic nodes grab the headlines and get the downloads less because of talent and more because of hype. Same with many of the IM gurus and mega promised products - not all of course, but many.

              Who else is tired of over promised, under delivered, mega hyped easy buttons that simply stay ahead of the refunds until the next auto mouse trap release?

              I have a word that I'd like to add to this thread, and it also is less than 10 letters. Truth. When did it become okay for that to be optional, and why do we tolerate it?

              And btw- I have nothing to sell at the moment :rolleyes:

              E.L.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lee Wilson
    I think he's late to the party

    curationbook: curation nation book
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Deegan
    Wow I can't believe this is about curation...lol

    First place I heard about curation was from Jack Humphrey. He taught as part of his Blog Success program. But Nanobloggers really opened my eyes to it last year...Heck I posted comments about the model more than once a few months or year ago right here on the warrior forum.

    I also recently posted in the review thread for the syndicator webinar about the model as well as the service. Harlan was talking about it in that thread as well but from a customer standpoint. As I mentioned there anyone who wants a done for you site in this style can get it for much cheaper...from my self and others.

    As for software you can set up some google alerts, use an rss reader and a tool like comment sniper to stay on top of the news in your niche. Heck you can kick it up a notch and build a market specific news dashboard using igoogle or other tools for free.
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    • Profile picture of the author JordanFrancis
      Originally Posted by Daniel Deegan View Post

      Wow I can't believe this is about curation...lol

      First place I heard about curation was from Jack Humphrey. He taught as part of his Blog Success program. But Nanobloggers really opened my eyes to it last year...Heck I posted comments about the model more than once a few months or year ago right here on the warrior forum.
      I was just about to mention Nanobloggers (and Peter Spaepen too) as well. Whoops, I just did

      From my bookmarks, I found this link in my "Content Curation" folder that might interest some here:

      Online Content Curation: The Key To Building Visibility, Authority And Value
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  • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
    hows everybody doing tonight?

    This thread might as well be a forum category
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  • Profile picture of the author Timaay
    Hello everyone.

    I have been a member here for many, many years. I have learned an ABSOLUTE TON from this place and let me just say it is an absolute shame to see crap like this here.

    When i first signed up as a member and started out online this forum was filled with insightful, 'almost mystical' intellectual marketing discourse. I say 'mystical' because it felt like true enlightenment and had such an amazing spirit of giving rolled into each and every thread.

    I don't stop in too often anymore because of stuff like this. Each time i pop in and see this crap i regret that i took the time to come here. It's a shame.

    MODS, i know you have a tough job. But the Warrior Forum used to be the place where you felt you could 'trust' the information because the community was inherently... good. That's what seperated the Warrior Forum from other forums out there...

    People like this that use the forum for their personal experiments and marketing ploys should be banned and their threads deleted. This person has a bad track record and has repeatedly abused the generosity of Allen and the spirit of this forum. Anyone that has been around a day or two knows what he is up to and it is certainly not to help the community... only to take from it.

    We are better than this. Please delete this thread and ban the OP.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Timaay View Post

      We are better than this. Please delete this thread and ban the OP.

      Don't you think there is real value in slicing and dicing a wannabe guru in public?

      Isn't there value in the rest of the thread that enables others to see what some people will do to get their money?
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      • Profile picture of the author Timaay
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Don't you think there is real value in slicing and dicing a wannabe guru in public?

        Isn't there value in the rest of the thread that enables others to see what some people will do to get their money?
        I guess, but that seems better suited to other places. Personally, i think there are a lot of other places on the web people can see examples like this. Actually- almost every other forum.

        My point was this place used to be better than this. Let the harlan's of the biz opp scene pollute other forums.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Bill,
        Don't you think there is real value in slicing and dicing a wannabe guru in public?
        Not really. And if you think the value in this thread is the "slicing and dicing," you've missed the point.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Bill,Not really. And if you think the value in this thread is the "slicing and dicing," you've missed the point.


          Paul

          I haven't missed the point...

          I will put my smart ass on the back burner for the remainder of this thread.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Timaay,
      People like this that use the forum for their personal experiments and marketing ploys should be banned and their threads deleted. This person has a bad track record and has repeatedly abused the generosity of Allen and the spirit of this forum. Anyone that has been around a day or two knows what he is up to and it is certainly not to help the community... only to take from it.
      Your opinion of Harlan's intent and history is your choice. Some would agree, others might not. Allowing the thread to remain was my choice.

      There have been quite a few useful lessons in it, up to and including Harlan's most recent comment. I don't think he realizes that he has become largely irrelevant to this conversation, except as an example.

      As far as the changes... There were people here when you joined who were saying the same things you've just said. It's gone on for almost as long as I've been a member. Hell, there were people using the forum for their own purposes before I joined, and that will always happen. The bigger the place gets, the more such people will show up. And the more the members will watch for them.

      There's also more useful information and helpful people here now than ever before. A lot of it is in the War Room, but even without that, the knowledge and experience available to members is greater than at any other time. There's more of the annoying stuff, too, but that's just part of growth.


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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Don,

        As far as the question of 'expert' status, I tend to agree with you. And I'd hate to be an expert by your definition. At least in anything I found interesting. There'd be nothing more to learn about the subject. Not to mention that people who think of themselves as experts often start to believe their own press. They think they're the smartest guys in the room. That's an unhealthy thing in a room as big as the Internet.

        I only think of myself as the smartest guy in the room when I'm alone. It's useful at those times to remember that I'm also the dumbest.


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        • Profile picture of the author zerofill
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          I only think of myself as the smartest guy in the room when I'm alone. It's useful at those times to remember that I'm also the dumbest.


          Paul
          Also even in a full room if you at least act like your the dumbest you get left alone.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sunnybeach7
    I find this to be true about anyone who claims themselves to be "gurus" or who's products flaunt pages and pages of Clickbank sales them and all their friends made over the last month.

    There are some out there that are helpful.. those are the one's that are actually using what they teach. I am on a few of their lists.

    They don't send an email for every new launch happening under the sun. They do often send free information and have free webinars..and if you have bought their products and sometimes not...they may have weekly or monthly phone calls where you can actually ask them questions, and they are not selling anything on the calls.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zanti
    I would like to think that my post above, providing some information about IM and curation, that many said they had not heard much about, should prove useful to a few of us. At the very least it was some useful information for me.

    There have been other posts that have also provided some useful content and discussion. I can only speak for myself but I'm glad that Paul didn't delete this.

    There really is a lot of learning here. In order to get the most out of it one would have to spend the time to read all of the posts. I find that often people will read the first couple of posts and then go to the end, developing their opinion based on a very small sample of data. So many things here and in life depends on if one is able to see things from multiple viewing places.

    If you check my post above you will find several links to additional information and articles on Curation.

    Brian
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  • Profile picture of the author J Bold
    We are all about curation.

    Because we are fancy.

    And we are on PBS so we should use fancy words.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Because we are fancy.
      Has nothing to do with being fancy. It could be a very precise choice, if you look at the meaning and common usage of the word.

      Think about the roles filled by the curators at a zoo or a museum or a library. They're responsible for building, maintaining, and promoting collections of related items in specific categories. That's rather an elegant concept when applied to information.

      If that's what he means by the process, it's the correct word.


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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Kom,
        this forum is the biggest MARKET for senior marketing, to make money from us as a Newbie.
        Very few "senior marketers" do a lot of selling here. The majority of the products offered in this forum are offered by folks with low-medium to intermediate levels of experience.

        At any rate, the discussion areas should not be considered markets for anyone. That is not their function.


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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


          At any rate, the discussion areas should not be considered markets for anyone. That is not their function.


          Paul
          Hi Paul,

          May I ask and I'm not argueing because the longer this thread goes on the more curious I get.

          As the first rule of the forum is not to have a problem with Guru's, gods etc. I can't see how his OP is anything but that. Granted, he's clearly a bright chap, he's an NLP genius, he has a splendid sense of fashion as I saw in his brilliant "Beach Millions" video. He's great frends with Frank Kern and Frank knew of Harlan before Harlen had properly introduced himself to him.

          My point is, if I came in here and I accept, you don't know me as well as you know Harlan and I let off an anti guru rant and loaded my signature with hypocritical links to making money without having to work for it. Would we still be here discussing it and me being defended to some extent by many, or would I be entering my fourth day as a banned member of the forum?

          I'm intrigued and assume it's purely because of the interesting discussion that followed.

          I think the thread has some excellent lessons and Zanti's post above was superb. I shall continue to read what some very great minds have to say but I can't help but find the way this has been done, as even remotely attractive to me, having said that, I'm quite simply not Harlans intended audience or prospective customer and that's just my perspective, which in the scheme of things, doesn't actually matter.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kom
    Hi Paul,
    If I speak very well english like you guys, I will make the same thread to make people fight with me. ofcourse just to get more attention, want get click link, but quality we neet not quantity.
    like signature link. everyone knows that technique.But i am not speak english very well and I dont like to fight for something.
    Fight For Bs. wasting your time.

    Note : All of us here Is IM No matter what and How Long you are doing this, this place must be talk about help people IM, but seem change this forum is the biggest MARKET for senior marketing, to make money from us as a Newbie.

    What the Hell That.!
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by Kom View Post

      this forum is the biggest MARKET for senior marketing, to make money from us as a Newbie.

      What the Hell That.!
      I wish someone had told me this a few years ago. I've hardly offered any of my stuff here over the years purely because I don't see the forum as a 'market' but a community.

      If you told me I was supposed to be trying to make money out of the newbies I would have sold a LOT more stuff. In fact, I don't even have anything for sale right now - I should change that.
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      nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Robert Scoble wrote about Curating last year
    The Seven Needs of Real-Time Curators

    March 27, 2010 By Robert Scoble
    I keep hearing people throw around the word “curation” at various conferences, most recently at SXSW. The thing is most of the time when I dig into what they are saying they usually have no clue about what curation really is or how it could be applied to the real-time world.
    So, over the past few months I’ve been talking to tons of entrepreneurs about the tools that curators actually need and I’ve identified seven things. First, who does curation? Bloggers, of course, but blogging is curation for Web 1.0. Look at this post here, I can link to Tweets, and point out good ones, right? That’s curation. Or I can order my links in a particular order. That’s curation. Or I can add my thoughts to those links, just like Techcrunch or VentureBeat do. That’s curation. Or I can do a video like Leo Laporte does and talk about those links. That’s curation. Or I can forward those links to you via email. That’s curation. The editor who sits in a big building at New York Times or your local newspaper that chooses what content you’ll see in your newspaper is a curator. So is the page designer who decides what story is at the top of the page.
    But NONE of the real time tools/systems like Google Buzz, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Flickr, give curators the tools that they need to do their work efficiently. That’s why I’m writing this post, to try to get the industry to see that there’s an unmet need that — if they were met — would mean all sorts of things from better scrapbooks for family photos and events to better news systems like what CNN or Huffington Post are trying to build on the Web. More on that after I get through the seven things.
    As you read these things they were ordered (curated) in this order for a reason. If you give me #7 without giving me #1 first your tool will suck and you won’t be used by curators. If you give me #1 without #7, you’ll be way ahead of some tool that gives me #7 only.
    This is a guide for how we can build “info molecules” that have a lot more value than the atomic world we live in now. First, what are info atoms? A tweet is an atom. A photo on Flickr is an atom. A conversation item on Google Buzz is an atom. A Facebook status message is an atom. A YouTube video is an atom.
    Thousands of these atoms flow across our screens in tools like Seesmic, Google Reader, Tweetdeck, Tweetie, Simply Tweet, Twitroid, etc.
    A curator is an information chemist. He or she mixes atoms together in a way to build an info-molecule. Then adds value to that molecule.
    So, what are the seven needs of real time curators?
    1. Real-time curators need to bundle. We need to be able to bundle certain tweets together. What do I mean by that? Well, let’s say a news event, like an earthquake, happens right now while I’m writing this post. Which are the best 10 tweets that describe that event? Can we bundle those together easily? Bloggers can bundle, but making Tweets look like Tweets is actually pretty difficult for normal people and even for geeks like me. Gotta take a screen shot of the tweet, upload that, then build an image tag in WordPress, then link that image up to the original tweet’s permalink. Whew. What a lot of work for something that should be simple. This could look like tagging, but calling it tagging is pretty limiting because tags won’t get you to full curation. One question: why can we bundle Flickr photos together by applying a tag to them, but we can’t bundle Tweets together by tagging Tweets? For instance, here’s two photos I shot at Techcrunch’s offices showing their new TV team. How did I bundle those together? Simply by tagging them with “Techcrunch TV” tag. Now, what if I could bundle in Tweets about Techcrunch TV? How about a YouTube video? How about other people’s Flickr photos? How about photos on other services like Smugmug or Picasa? How about Google Buzz items? Now you’re starting to understand why we need bundling cross-platform so we can start pulling valuable atoms out of the real-time streams.
    2. Real-time curators need to reorder things. Look at just those two photos. One is more important than the other. Now, imagine a bundle with dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of items. Why can’t curators put the most important ones at the top of the bundle, just like the New York Times front page editor puts the most important news at the top of the page? Or, even better, why can’t we organize them into sub bundles? During an earthquake, like the one in Haiti, some things happened on first day, other things happened on second day, etc. Why are they all in one flat stream? Or, look at Apple’s iPad launch. Some things are about the specs. Some things are about the people involved. Some things are about apps. Some things are about accessories. Why can’t we organize them all into sub bundles? All curated in order of importance?
    3. Real-time curators need to distribute bundles. Let’s say I put together a report for my bosses at Rackspace about what is happening at YCombinator (they just had a launch this week of a new crop of companies). Let’s say I built a bundle of not just the Techcrunch article I just linked to, but the Tweets from the event as well as the reports from other tech journalists like those who work at GigaOm, who also had a report on that event. Now we need to distribute that bundle. Of course we’ll Tweet it. But that means a headline of less than 140 characters that must include a link to the permalink of the bundle. But what about Facebook? That can include a thumbnail. Google Buzz? That lets you upload items with longer headlines and multiple pictures. What about emailing this bundle around the way Chris Brogan emails his blog posts. Why can’t a curation tool be smart about distributing bundles and let you see and manipulate previews of how that bundle will distribute itself to the various places you need your bundles to go to get the right audience.
    4. Real-time curators need to editorialize. So, now we have a bundle of Tweets, YouTube videos, Flickr photos, Google Buzz items, Facebook status messages, et al. We’ve seen a new pattern in the world and now we want to explain our view of that pattern. For instance, I was at the YCombinator event this week. What if I wanted to add my two cents into the patterns other people saw? I might want to blog like here. Or add a video of my own. Or a Cinchcast (audio recordings done on my iPhone). Or add a bunch of photos I shot, like this one of Paul Graham mentoring his startups at that event with what they did wrong and right. But why did I just need to click “img” and copy and paste a URL to do that? A curation tool would let me drag and drop on my new iPad that I’ll have next weekend.
    5. Real-time curators need to update their bundles. When the Haiti earthquake happened, the news story changed over time. We had more information and many many more Tweets to bundle in, not to mention that the mainstream press started flowing stories into RSS and Twitter. If you can’t update a bundle then it will greatly limit the ability for us to communicate. Blogs are pretty bad at this. If I come back in two hours and update this post you probably won’t see the update. In fact, not only can I update this post, but everyone who leaves a comment underneath is really updating it too. Yet early readers won’t see the later comments. They are missing part of the story. Of course, once you update you need to redistribute. IE, let your Twitter and Facebook and Google Reader friends know that the story has changed and there is important new information on the bundle that you need to see.
    6. Real-time curators need to add participation widgets. On some bundles you might want to ask your audience to take a poll. Some might want to add comments. Not everyone will. Seth Godin doesn’t have comments on his blog. Other bloggers might want to leave comments open for a few hours or a few days. Even here I’ve made it so you can only comment for 30 days on my blog posts. Why? Because of spammers and other bad actors. I can see a TON of widgets that would be available to get participation on widgets. These would be a great way for these systems to monetize, too. Would you pay $1 to add a poll to your bundle? I would.
    7. Real-time curators need to track their audience. Look at this blog post. It has a TweetMeme button on it. That shows you how often this item has been retweeted. I would add such a button to every bundle I do. I’d also add Google Analytics and a few other things that would track where you’re coming from, what kind of engagement my items are getting, and even, how relevant you are based on your own participation in the system. Don’t think that’s already happening? Look at the curation system Spigit built for large enterprises. I met with them yesterday and their system does just that and is getting used by many of the world’s biggest companies like Wallmart and Starbucks.
    Does such a curation system exist today? Yes, blogs, but blogs are HORRID for tracking this real time world. Just this post took me 30 minutes to bang out and that was after I had it in my head and I wrote it very quickly. Imagine I was talking about a real time event. The news is already 30 minutes old. We need a new system for real-time curation of what’s happening on my Twitter stream.
    It’s interesting that no one has gotten close to even giving us the most basic curation tools. Why is that?
    Why are companies ignoring our needs? In talking with CEOs at companies in the real-time space I’ve identified a few reasons:
    1. Building-cross-platform tools is difficult. Each real-time feed has different APIs and isn’t set up to interoperate with other real-time systems. Twitter has no API to share its feeds with Flickr. Flickr’s tags don’t have any idea what YouTube’s tags are. WordPress is blind to all of it. Etc Etc.
    2. Fear of platform vendors. No one builds these kinds of features because they are scared that Facebook or Google will build these kinds of APIs and kill their businesses. Not unfounded, either. Tweetdeck built lists into its product and then Twitter came along and added lists in a way that was far more useful than the ones Tweetdeck built. So, companies like Tweetdeck and Seesmic choose to work on things that Twitter will be unlikely to do.
    3. Assumption that these features are only going to be used by “weirdos or professionals or both.” I hear this all the time “oh, Scoble, you need these features, but what about normal people.”
    The first two I can’t do much about. I agree that these are features that would be best built in at a platform level and have told many of the players to do that. But the third is provably false if entrepreneurs would do some customer research (shocking, but many San Francisco area social networking companies do very little real customer research, which explains why they so often screw up around privacy and fail to find new features that dramatically improve our lives).
    Let’s consider the mother who has a 1-year-old son. She invites 30 of her friends to a birthday party for her son. They take videos, do Foursquare checkins, one or two might blog about the party for their mommy blogs. Many take photos, but some of those photos end up on Facebook. Some on Flickr. Some on SmugMug. Some on Picasa. Lots of them Tweet about the event, or Facebook status messages, or put some Google Buzz items up, not to mention FriendFeed, Whrrl, Pip.io, or other systems where you can capture your life’s most interesting events.
    Now, how does that mother build an online scrapbook of all the items that were poured into the system? Sure you can use a tool like Scrapblog but how do you get Tweets into that? It’s not a curation tool for the real-time web.
    Let’s also take on what would happen once we move into such a molecular world:
    1. Search would INSTANTLY improve. (I need a whole blog post on why this is so).
    2. Trends would INSTANTLY improve. (You’d have real meta data about important events, look at just the ordering data that would be available to study).
    3. Brands would be able to advertise on bundles. (CocaCola would love to advertise on bundles of movie feedback, for instance, especially on bundles curated by the best movie curators — they will never advertise on raw tweets because the risk is too high that their brand would be next to something nasty).
    4. A new monetization strategy would INSTANTLY become available for platform vendors like Twitter and Google Buzz.
    5. Location services like Gowalla and Foursquare would be able to add real value onto bundles (showing location trends would be a key part of bundles, where they have no real play in augmenting “atoms” like Tweets or Flickr photos).
    6. A new form of relevancy, credibility, and authority data would be available for systems to automatically present the best news. Look at how Techmeme appeared after blogging did. Imagine all sorts of new displays of best bundles that would now be possible. Even Techmeme would be able to recommend the best curators on topics, which would greatly improve the real-time news available there.
    Anyone feel the need for this kind of new curation tool? Join in, please curate this post and push it around your networks. Let’s see if we can find some companies who are working on providing this new kind of real-time curation system. I’d love to work with startups who are working on just this. +1-425-205-1921 or scobleizer@gmail.com or leave a comment here and let’s work together in public.
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  • Profile picture of the author Carl Galletti
    So, Harlan, I guess you're one of those "glass is half empty" type guys, huh?
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    • Profile picture of the author ExRat
      Hi Paul (Myers),

      I'm a newbie to this forum, and I've seen it a few times in other threads already
      I don't think I've ever seen that word used for the concept.
      Paulie888 -

      this term has rarely (if ever) been used here.
      Harlan -

      The solution is so new to the Warrior Forum that there isn't even a single post on it.

      I venture to say not a single person on this forum has heard of the solution.
      Use the search function!

      LINK

      Examples -

      HERE -
      If you know the basics of getting a blog up, This article gives you a very solid model on how to become an authority site without really being an expert. There are courses on the subject but this set of blog posts is better then the courses and its free.

      Link - Real-Time News Curation, Newsmastering And Newsradars - The Complete Guide Part 1: Why We Need
      HERE -
      As our data curation processes & algorithms improve, we hope to be able to add cities much faster than we do right now, and yes, certainly hope to add Queensland soon, too.
      HERE -
      I've just made a post, a list actually, of advanced link building strategies that might help you guys with your existing SEO campaigns. Here's my list (though I've removed some on my first draft, but these are all good anyway):

      1. Link bait
      2. Widget bait
      3. Link magnetism
      4. Curation
      5. Dead link building
      6. Themes sponsorship and CSS Galleries for link building
      7. Ebook bait
      8. Relationship building
      9. Testimonials
      10. Guest publishing...
      HERE -
      1. Link baiting
      2. Trust building
      3. PR sculpting through high authority profile pages and special mentions

      Others running on my list of favorites:

      - the classic relationship building
      - content trap strategy
      - curation
      - reverse engineering competitors
      - guest publishing
      I could go on, but won't.

      .................................................

      Quotes from Harlan -

      So if you want to sell something that doesn't work, the market is wide open.

      But if you're one of the sad folks who really wants to make a full time income via the Internet, following the out of date stuff isn't going to work.
      The solution is so new to the Warrior Forum that there isn't even a single post on it.

      I venture to say not a single person on this forum has heard of the solution.
      Paul, good copy sets the stage before offering a solution.

      I'm setting the stage.
      But after coming back and seeing what's happened in the meantime, I sincerely feel I'm wasting my time here.

      I don't spend a full day cruising the Warrior Forum.

      They say when the student is willing, the teacher appears.

      When the student is unwilling, the teacher disappears.
      Harlan, you have told a pack of lies throughout this thread just to get attention to yourself and your 'launch'.

      It's quite clear to me that only the 'clueless' would listen to you, spend money with you, or ever believe anything you say in the future. Your arrogance is absolutely staggering. You teach people virtually nothing of any significance here and I don't see you helping those in need of your experience, yet you talk about yourself as a teacher and call everyone who posted here 'students'. You embarrass me, purely because as 'a warrior' I could possibly be associated with you as part of the same group.

      I've said it to you before Paul (Myers), but it's threads like this that cause people on their blogs and on other forums to suggest that this forum provides a platform and supports 'gurus' in the act of deceiving and ripping off those who don't know better. As others have pointed out, if a 'minion' tried this, they would at least be reprimanded and the thread deleted, if not banned.

      Personally, I'd rather not be associated with this kind of thing, but as 'someone with a lot of posts' here I inevitably am. Hence, I am literally 'forced' to post my feelings on the deception going on here otherwise I would appear to be guilty by association, or by my silence.

      As you can tell, I have no problem doing that and I really don't care too much if the thread stays or goes - I agree that it is educational in at least one sense and for that reason I hope it stays as a 'testimonial' for Harlan.

      I am surprised though, that certain people haven't called Harlan out for his poor attempt at deception and spoken their mind about it.
      Signature


      Roger Davis

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      • Profile picture of the author zerofill
        Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

        I am surprised though, that certain people haven't called Harlan out for his poor attempt at deception and spoken their mind about it.
        Roger,

        Truth is... Newer people can get suckered in by this type of info.

        While people that have been around these types of forums and blogs and see these attempts all the time... laughed at the OP.

        Problem is... some people are so full of **** that they begin to believe themselves. So they may actually believe what they are writing.

        The people that aren't sure whether to fall for it need to read the whole thread rather than just the OP and then make a decision. If they don't read the whole thing that is kind of their fault.

        That is where we hit the educational portion of this thread you mentioned. But it all depends on whether people want to be educated or not hehe.

        Maybe they fell for the master of NLP... { { sarcasm intended } }
        Signature
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        New Podcast --> podcast.imcool.biz
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi zerofill,

          Maybe they fell for the master of NLP... { { sarcasm intended } }
          No Longer Plausible
          Signature


          Roger Davis

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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
          Originally Posted by zerofill View Post

          Maybe they fell for the master of NLP... { { sarcasm intended } }
          Just in case my dry sense of humour was a bit too dry the following statement was said in the biggest possible spirit of sarcasm...

          Granted, he's clearly a bright chap, he's an NLP genius, he has a splendid sense of fashion as I saw in his brilliant "Beach Millions" video.
          The beach millions shirt, on the the freezing cold overcast day at the seaside, was not only a crime against fashion but it put me off going to the beach again, let alone retiring to one.
          Signature

          Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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          • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
            Originally Posted by tpw View Post

            I haven't missed the point...

            I will put my smart ass on the back burner for the remainder of this thread.

            Paul, you mentioned before that I also had missed the point, but to me the following two posts (and the video) encapsulate the most important lesson from this thread.

            Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

            Hi Paul,

            May I ask and I'm not argueing because the longer this thread goes on the more curious I get.

            As the first rule of the forum is not to have a problem with Guru's, gods etc. I can't see how his OP is anything but that. Granted, he's clearly a bright chap, he's an NLP genius, he has a splendid sense of fashion as I saw in his brilliant "Beach Millions" video. He's great frends with Frank Kern and Frank knew of Harlan before Harlen had properly introduced himself to him.

            My point is, if I came in here and I accept, you don't know me as well as you know Harlan and I let off an anti guru rant and loaded my signature with hypocritical links to making money without having to work for it. Would we still be here discussing it and me being defended to some extent by many, or would I be entering my fourth day as a banned member of the forum?

            I'm intrigued and assume it's purely because of the interesting discussion that followed.

            I think the thread has some excellent lessons and Zanti's post above was superb. I shall continue to read what some very great minds have to say but I can't help but find the way this has been done, as even remotely attractive to me, having said that, I'm quite simply not Harlans intended audience or prospective customer and that's just my perspective, which in the scheme of things, doesn't actually matter.
            Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

            Hi Paul (Myers),

            Paulie888 -

            Harlan -

            Use the search function!

            LINK

            Examples -

            HERE - HERE - HERE - HERE - I could go on, but won't.

            .................................................

            Quotes from Harlan -

            Harlan, you have told a pack of lies throughout this thread just to get attention to yourself and your 'launch'.

            It's quite clear to me that only the 'clueless' would listen to you, spend money with you, or ever believe anything you say in the future. Your arrogance is absolutely staggering. You teach people virtually nothing of any significance here and I don't see you helping those in need of your experience, yet you talk about yourself as a teacher and call everyone who posted here 'students'. You embarrass me, purely because as 'a warrior' I could possibly be associated with you as part of the same group.

            I've said it to you before Paul (Myers), but it's threads like this that cause people on their blogs and on other forums to suggest that this forum provides a platform and supports 'gurus' in the act of deceiving and ripping off those who don't know better. As others have pointed out, if a 'minion' tried this, they would at least be reprimanded and the thread deleted, if not banned.

            Personally, I'd rather not be associated with this kind of thing, but as 'someone with a lot of posts' here I inevitably am. Hence, I am literally 'forced' to post my feelings on the deception going on here otherwise I would appear to be guilty by association, or by my silence.

            As you can tell, I have no problem doing that and I really don't care too much if the thread stays or goes - I agree that it is educational in at least one sense and for that reason I hope it stays as a 'testimonial' for Harlan.

            I am surprised though, that certain people haven't called Harlan out for his poor attempt at deception and spoken their mind about it.




            Martin
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            • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
              ExRat mentioned it above, but I also had also just done a search for the word Curation on the Warrior Forum.

              Ok, it's not a hot topic, but it is mentioned in 11 threads going back to 2009.

              I will soon reveal my new word to the world. I haven't made it up yet, but I will ask one of my young children to give me an idea of one. They make up words all the time.

              AND the really good thing: I'm sure the dot com will be available
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              • Profile picture of the author E-Newbies
                Originally Posted by Steadyon View Post

                ExRat mentioned it above, but I also had also just done a search for the word Curation on the Warrior Forum.

                Ok, it's not a hot topic, but it is mentioned in 11 threads going back to 2009.

                I will soon reveal my new word to the world. I haven't made it up yet, but I will ask one of my young children to give me an idea of one. They make up words all the time.

                AND the really good thing: I'm sure the dot com will be available
                This is actually a marketing technique make up an sms shortcode register the domain & submit the shortcode to the SMS directories
                Signature
                Proven eBiz Money Making Systems and Tools - Free VIP Membership for Warriors
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  • Profile picture of the author Peter Bestel
    This thread is ridiculous.

    I've not been on here very much lately, so I need reminding, of all the rules that Harlan's broken with his OP, which button do we need to press to complain about it?

    Do we Add infraction, Report Post or both?


    Peter
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  • Profile picture of the author paulie888
    Originally Posted by Craig Desorcy View Post

    10,208 views and 16 thanks? Numbers don't lie, only people.


    For the amount of possible sig views, I can't see how this all was
    worth it. Interesting model.


    -Craig
    Craig, it certainly looks like a publicity stunt gone awry to me.

    Paul
    Signature
    >>> Features Jason Fladlien, John S. Rhodes, Justin Brooke, Sean I. Mitchell, Reed Floren and Brad Gosse! <<<
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Richard,
      As the first rule of the forum is not to have a problem with Guru's, gods etc.
      "A" guru, god, etc. Rule #1 is about bashing specific individuals, not generic categories. Rather a lot of "guru bashing" posts and threads don't end up being deleted.

      Occasionally, a moderator will step into a thread that could be deleted and participate, making an example or a point through that thread. That was my reason, as I've said, for leaving this one up.

      I have often stated that people who post under their own names get more slack, because they have more at stake. Occasionally, that means directly calling someone on a post like the first one in this thread. Had that been made by someone anonymous or relatively unknown, doing the same things would have been seen as beating up on the new guy. With Harlan, the point could be made without that sort of appearance, as he's both an established name and quite capable of dealing with a forum discussion that gets a bit rough.

      It was also partially because, as he himself mentioned, he's done this plenty in the past and had the posts deleted. Keeping this one available and under discussion raised the stakes. Had he delivered, it would also have raised the payoff.

      Several people have mentioned that this should have been deleted as an attempt at advertising. When I first got into the conversation, I wasn't aware of that fact. By the time I became aware of it, the thing had already progressed to the point at which leaving it posted was more appropriate a response to the ad than deleting it would have been.

      Roger,
      I've said it to you before Paul (Myers), but it's threads like this that cause people on their blogs and on other forums to suggest that this forum provides a platform and supports 'gurus' in the act of deceiving and ripping off those who don't know better.
      Please explain to me how calling someone on this sort of thing publicly could be construed as supporting rip-offs?

      For context, see my first post in this thread, which suggested that Harlan could make his points without the hyperbole.

      The majority of the nonsense to which you're referring is based on the fact that Rule #1 is in place. The idiots don't get to come in here and bash people for whatever reason and in whatever manner they feel is appropriate, up to and including the spread of distortions, half-truths, and outright lies.

      It's taken a lot of work by a lot of people over a long period of time for this forum to develop its current reach. The people you're talking about want the benefit of that work and effort without any regard for what's good for the members here. They're angry because they want the platform this place affords, but don't want to play by the rules that keep it viable.

      I don't make decisions based on the opinions of such people.

      You, Richard, Martin, Andy and a number of others object to the fact that I chose to leave this thread up. That's reasonable. It was a judgment call, made with a clear end result in mind. That result has developed pretty much exactly as I expected, including the reasonable objections. Thanks to Mal's having listened in on the webinar and relayed what he heard, it's been surpassed.

      I've said many times that it's foolish to try and please everyone. As Father De Mello said, even God can't do that.


      Paul
      Signature
      .
      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        You, Richard, Martin, Andy and a number of others object to the fact that I chose to leave this thread up. That's reasonable. It was a judgment call, made with a clear end result in mind. That result has developed pretty much exactly as I expected, including the reasonable objections. Thanks to Mal's having listened in on the webinar and relayed what he heard, it's been surpassed.
        Paul,

        Thanks for taking the time to explain. I actually don't necessarily think it should be taken down and as I said, I find the thread rather useful in many ways and I certainly don't "object" to your leaving it up.

        My point was, had I written what he had with similar signature links, I can't see myself not being banned or at the very least the thread vanishing. I was simply trying to find out why that hadn't happened here and you have explained that. As I said, I was merely curious.

        I did state at the very beginning of my post I wasn't here for an arguement, I was just trying to clarify some of my confusion over the situation, which you have kindly remedied to some degree.

        Either way, I still wouldn't have the courage to "save my own mothers life", wearing the sort of yellow shirt Harlan wore in "Beach Millions".

        I stand by that and would expect any clinically sane person to do the same.
        Signature

        Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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        • Profile picture of the author Harlan
          For all those who think that I'm here trolling for clients, let me assure you that in my history of copywriting or marketing, I've never gotten a single client from the Warrior Forum. It's due to the fact that I don't sell my products in the $17 range and I won't write copy for $195 (but if you order now it's just $87.50).

          I acknowledge the fact that everyone here is way smarter than me. And I just couldn't possibly have an idea that no one has applied to Internet Marketing.

          Everyone is stuck in the "how to beat Google game." Just look at the majority of the posts in the category of "how to get on the first page of Google in the next 29 minutes."

          Google is changing. It's linking strategy and content strategy isn't working. And they acknowledge it.

          Now think of the Internet. How vast the information superhighway is. And the amount of information doubles every 72 hours.

          It's impossible to plow through.

          Take the average surfer. My mother in law was just diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. If you type in alternative therapies for cancer you get 2.2 million hits. It's impossible to go through and evaluate the information. There aren't enough hours in the day to do so.

          That's where curated sites come in. People form an allegiance to curated sites and return to them daily.

          Think about where you go daily on the Internet for news, sports. It's no longer possible to know EVERYTHING so we select sites that have the information for us.

          Google LOVES curated sites. They have lots of fresh content. Lots of original content. And if you do them correctly, you will rise meteor like in the rankings. They are completely white hat.

          And unlike the people who want to get into Google News so they can spam the crap out of it, Curated sites get into Google News because they belong there. The end goal isn't getting into Google News, it's the outcome of being a well built site.

          Information curation is NOT a get rich quick method. It's a get rich slow method.

          Curated sites are valuable. They can be monetized in a number of ways. One of the keys is picking the niche that will turn out to be profitable. And that is in itself a key.

          Content curation is not popular with bloggers because the Curated sites almost always outrank the sites they quote. The Huffington Post outranks the sites it quotes in almost every case.

          Because the true curated site become the authority in the industry. Take a look at some curated sites.

          They have huge traffic.

          They have passionate audiences.

          And if you pick correctly, they have money too.

          So while Lady GaGa News - Born This Way may be a curated site for a passionate topic (Lady Gaga), it's not a site that would fit into my model.

          Information curation is the wave of the future.

          And the nice thing about it is...

          It's clean.

          It's ethical (or should be).

          And it's inexpensive.

          They key is picking the right niche. And that means starting with your monetization strategy FIRST, before you build the site.

          I currently have five curated sites in totally different niches. These are large crowded niches and using my techniques, they are rising to the top of Mount Google.

          Each has a different monetization goal.

          I'm going to recommend you get your hands on the book Curation Nation that just came back and ask yourself the question....

          If you invest the 30 minutes you waste a day surfing the Internet curating content instead, what is that site going to be worth in 12 months?
          Signature

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          Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
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          • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

            For all those who think that I'm here trolling for clients, let me assure you that in my history of copywriting or marketing, I've never gotten a single client from the Warrior Forum. It's due to the fact that I don't sell my products in the $17 range and I won't write copy for $195 (but if you order now it's just $87.50).

            I acknowledge the fact that everyone here is way smarter than me. And I just couldn't possibly have an idea that no one has applied to Internet Marketing.

            Everyone is stuck in the "how to beat Google game." Just look at the majority of the posts in the category of "how to get on the first page of Google in the next 29 minutes."

            Google is changing. It's linking strategy and content strategy isn't working. And they acknowledge it.

            Now think of the Internet. How vast the information superhighway is. And the amount of information doubles every 72 hours.

            It's impossible to plow through.

            Take the average surfer. My mother in law was just diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. If you type in alternative therapies for cancer you get 2.2 million hits. It's impossible to go through and evaluate the information. There aren't enough hours in the day to do so.

            That's where curated sites come in. People form an allegiance to curated sites and return to them daily.

            Think about where you go daily on the Internet for news, sports. It's no longer possible to know EVERYTHING so we select sites that have the information for us.

            Google LOVES curated sites. They have lots of fresh content. Lots of original content. And if you do them correctly, you will rise meteor like in the rankings. They are completely white hat.

            And unlike the people who want to get into Google News so they can spam the crap out of it, Curated sites get into Google News because they belong there. The end goal isn't getting into Google News, it's the outcome of being a well built site.

            Information curation is NOT a get rich quick method. It's a get rich slow method.

            Curated sites are valuable. They can be monetized in a number of ways. One of the keys is picking the niche that will turn out to be profitable. And that is in itself a key.

            Content curation is not popular with bloggers because the Curated sites almost always outrank the sites they quote. The Huffington Post outranks the sites it quotes in almost every case.

            Because the true curated site become the authority in the industry. Take a look at some curated sites.

            They have huge traffic.

            They have passionate audiences.

            And if you pick correctly, they have money too.

            So while Lady GaGa News - Born This Way may be a curated site for a passionate topic (Lady Gaga), it's not a site that would fit into my model.

            Information curation is the wave of the future.

            And the nice thing about it is...

            It's clean.

            It's ethical (or should be).

            And it's inexpensive.

            They key is picking the right niche. And that means starting with your monetization strategy FIRST, before you build the site.

            I currently have five curated sites in totally different niches. These are large crowded niches and using my techniques, they are rising to the top of Mount Google.

            Each has a different monetization goal.

            I'm going to recommend you get your hands on the book Curation Nation that just came back and ask yourself the question....

            If you invest the 30 minutes you waste a day surfing the Internet curating content instead, what is that site going to be worth in 12 months?
            Harlan,

            A very good post.

            Why didn't you make that the OP?

            (Honest question - no sarcasm/irony/snideness intended).



            Martin
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            • Profile picture of the author Harlan
              Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

              Harlan,

              A very good post.

              Why didn't you make that the OP?

              (Honest question - no sarcasm/irony/snideness intended).



              Martin
              I assure you if I did I would have gotten the same result.
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              • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
                Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                I assure you if I did I would have gotten the same result.
                Harlan,

                What do YOU mean by the word "result"?

                The critical responses?

                Data for an experiment on herd mindset?

                . . . ?


                Martin
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Harlan,

                  Whether you think he got the gist of your comments or not, Mal's mention of that one word was sufficient to make it clear that you had not, in fact, come up with anything new or revolutionary. Or even, as you claimed early in the thread, outside the scope of what some people here are doing and have discussed in the past.

                  Also note: I've done it for you in the latest two posts. In the future, please disable your sig file for any posts in this thread or on this topic.
                  For all those who think that I'm here trolling for clients, let me assure you that in my history of copywriting or marketing, I've never gotten a single client from the Warrior Forum. It's due to the fact that I don't sell my products in the $17 range and I won't write copy for $195 (but if you order now it's just $87.50).
                  This comment is so ignorant, on so many levels, that charity forces me to assume you're actively trying to get yourself banned.

                  That won't get the thread pulled, and getting banned for insulting the intelligence of every member of this forum will not provide you with fuel for your PR games.

                  A: Your copywriting services aren't what you were trying to promote with this. Thus, the comment is irrelevant.

                  B: You know as well as I do that plenty of people here pay higher end rates for solid copy. Thus, the comments about the folks who want things at lower prices, framed as they were to include the whole membership, are consciously inaccurate and insulting.

                  C: The attempt through this comment to make yourself look somehow better and smarter than the rest of the membership just becomes pointless condescension, and makes you look quite the opposite.

                  All in all, a pretty lame effort.

                  I recommend not venturing into that territory again.


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Martin,

                    He is quite wrong on his estimation of what would have happened if he'd posted that as the OP. Had he included the sig file mentioning his new product, it would have gotten him banned post haste, and I probably would have permanently disabled his sig file.

                    Now, posting that without the ad would have been an entirely different story, but that wasn't likely to happen.


                    Paul
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                    • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      Now, posting that without the ad would have been an entirely different story, but that wasn't likely to happen.
                      Paul
                      Now there's the rub. Why do you think that wasn't likely to happen?

                      I've had run-ins with Harlan (and other Warriors) in the past but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate him (them) posting useful threads.

                      In fact, if he had used that post as the OP, when you said, "Harlan is a nice guy," I might have thought, "Hmmm, yeah, maybe I've misjudged the guy."


                      Martin
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                    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                      That won't get the thread pulled, and getting banned for insulting the intelligence of every member of this forum will not provide you with fuel for your PR games.
                      Thank you for that - getting the thread nuked was probably part of the plan. I think these threads should remain for reference and rep so people can recognize similar threads to come.

                      I read about curation some time ago - and found definitions it as it applies online that go back to 2008-2009. Nothing earth shattering there.

                      I agree with several who posted that not many here could get by with this. The condescension alone would cause problems. It was surprising to me that posted criticisms ended so often with suggestions it might be worth it in the end if Harlan delivered. Honestly, for a time I wondered if there was a bigger picture to this thread that went beyond one poster.

                      In the end, the word is

                      WORD (replace with promotional term of the day)

                      kay
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                  • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                    Harlan,

                    Whether you think he got the gist of your comments or not, Mal's mention of that one word was sufficient to make it clear that you had not, in fact, come up with anything new or revolutionary. Or even, as you claimed early in the thread, outside the scope of what some people here are doing and have discussed in the past.

                    Also note: I've done it for you in the latest two posts. In the future, please disable your sig file for any posts in this thread or on this topic.This comment is so ignorant, on so many levels, that charity forces me to assume you're actively trying to get yourself banned.

                    That won't get the thread pulled, and getting banned for insulting the intelligence of every member of this forum will not provide you with fuel for your PR games.

                    A: Your copywriting services aren't what you were trying to promote with this. Thus, the comment is irrelevant.

                    B: You know as well as I do that plenty of people here pay higher end rates for solid copy. Thus, the comments about the folks who want things at lower prices, framed as they were to include the whole membership, are consciously inaccurate and insulting.

                    C: The attempt through this comment to make yourself look somehow better and smarter than the rest of the membership just becomes pointless condescension, and makes you look quite the opposite.

                    All in all, a pretty lame effort.

                    I recommend not venturing into that territory again.


                    Paul
                    As I mentioned, I'm not here for the marketing capital or the leads. Let's just say I differ with you on just about everything you've posted recently. I've edited my signature because it doesn't really make one bit of difference to my business.

                    There are a huge number of people for whom the old model of IM isn't working.

                    People can look into building Content Curation sites. They are worth serious money. But they are going to take time to build properly.

                    A good place to start is the book Curation Nation.

                    And that's my last word on the subject.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
                      Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                      As I mentioned, I'm not here for the marketing capital or the leads. Let's just say I differ with you on just about everything you've posted recently. I've edited my signature because it doesn't really make one bit of difference to my business.

                      There are a huge number of people for whom the old model of IM isn't working.

                      People can look into building Content Curation sites. They are worth serious money. But they are going to take time to build properly.

                      A good place to start is the book Curation Nation.

                      And that's my last word on the subject.
                      I like how you post your sig yet again.

                      Why post it, if you aren't here to gain leads?
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        Caleb,
                        I like how you post your sig yet again.

                        Why post it, if you aren't here to gain leads?
                        He edited the part that relates to this product out of his sig. That's enough on that topic.


                        Paul
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                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                      Harlan,
                      Let's just say I differ with you on just about everything you've posted recently.
                      You mean, the parts where I said you were a nice guy, you were very smart, and you could quite possibly have come up with something really new and innovative?

                      Or maybe the part where I said that what you're talking about is indeed very powerful, if not really new? Or that your product, if it involved a system for creating these sites that covered the inherent difficulties, might well be worth the investment?

                      Those parts?


                      Paul
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                      • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                        Harlan,You mean, the parts where I said you were a nice guy, you were very smart, and you could quite possibly have come up with something really new and innovative?

                        Or maybe the part where I said that what you're talking about is indeed very powerful, if not really new? Or that your product, if it involved a system for creating these sites that covered the inherent difficulties, might well be worth the investment?

                        Those parts?


                        Paul
                        Paul,

                        If I've learnt one thing from this thread, it's that sarcasm and irony are contagious.


                        Martin
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                      • Profile picture of the author tpw
                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                        Harlan,You mean, the parts where I said you were a nice guy, you were very smart, and you could quite possibly have come up with something really new and innovative?

                        Or maybe the part where I said that what you're talking about is indeed very powerful, if not really new? Or that your product, if it involved a system for creating these sites that covered the inherent difficulties, might well be worth the investment?

                        Those parts?


                        Paul

                        I know I said I was going to put my smart ass on the back burner for the rest of this thread, but this is too good to pass up.

                        He missed all of those things you said Paul, because he only skimmed the thread.

                        Then again, more likely, he probably just jumped to the end to post and only responded to what you said to him after his "coming clean" post.

                        Whereas my posts are skimmed by millions, your posts are not. Instead, your posts are skimmed by the one person for whom you bent over backwards to protect from misrepresentation.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                      From Google...

                      Content Curation = 658,000 results

                      "Content Curation" = 396,000 results

                      I think the attempt to classify oneself as the sole promoter of this concept in the IM niche is a bit niave. At least that's the way the OP read. Written by an experienced writer, as well.

                      Apparently, it points to a lack of research on the topic.

                      But it does make for an entertaining way to get notoriety for the topic.

                      I doubt other threads can be started on the subject here in the near future without a few of the members thinking back to this fiasco of a thread.

                      And the ironic part is that it could have been handled differently and created a much more positive disscussion on the topic. One where the conversation would have provided new insights for those who had never heard the term. A lot of us had, however.

                      So we're left with this stain on the Content Curation carpet instead.

                      Too bad.

                      ~Bill
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              • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                I assure you if I did I would have gotten the same result.
                I disagree.

                Apart from still patronising us with your "I don't sell my stuff here because I don't sell for $17" crap - most of this post was very much worthy of useful discussion and I think would've attracted a completely different response.

                You could easily have been seen as a thought-leader on the curation subject just by saying you've only seen it mentioned a few times and think it's important enough to want to talk about a bit more and share your thoughts on.

                Andy

                BTW - Despite what you seem to think about the low ticket nature of the members here I've spent at least $50k on services provided by other WF members and still spend money every month with fellow warriors.
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                • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                  Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

                  You could easily have been seen as a thought-leader on the curation subject just by saying you've only seen it mentioned a few times and think it's important enough to want to talk about a bit more and share your thoughts on.
                  ^^^^^^^^^

                  This is the real take-away here.

                  A non-egocentric approach to ideas that benefits the community.

                  Now, there's a concept.

                  ~Bill
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          • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

            I've never gotten a single client from the Warrior Forum.
            I'm not surprised.


            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

            I don't sell my products in the $17 range
            Many people on this forum invest more than $17 in a product. We aren't all necessarily paupers.


            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

            I acknowledge the fact that everyone here is way smarter than me. And I just couldn't possibly have an idea that no one has applied to Internet Marketing.
            Man you are really good at sarcasm. Keep up the good work.


            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

            Everyone is stuck in the "how to beat Google game."
            Not everyone.


            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

            And the amount of information doubles every 72 hours.
            No it doesn't. Is this where you dug up this "fact":

            Content on the web will double every 72 hours : Marketing News from Marketing Clout



            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

            Google LOVES curated sites. They have lots of fresh content. Lots of original content. And if you do them correctly, you will rise meteor like in the rankings.
            Finally, you mention something useful and that I just happen to agree with as well.


            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

            They are completely white hat.
            Not always.


            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

            Information curation is NOT a get rich quick method. It's a get rich slow method.
            This sounds prophetic, but it is just a reality of almost all methods actually. Still I forget you are a copywriter. So ok.


            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

            Content curation is not popular with bloggers because the Curated sites almost always outrank the sites they quote. The Huffington Post outranks the sites it quotes in almost every case.
            Once again this isn't necessarily the case. Many bloggers are happy to get "some" exposure that they may not have received otherwise.



            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

            Information curation is the wave of the future.
            No. It is A wave not THE wave.


            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

            They key is picking the right niche. And that means starting with your monetization strategy FIRST, before you build the site.
            Hallelujah. I'm glad there is the occassional nugget of sound advice lying buried beneath the mud.


            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

            If you invest the 30 minutes you waste a day surfing the Internet curating content instead, what is that site going to be worth in 12 months?
            I enjoy wasting 30 minutes a day surfing the internet. Mainly reading about lots of mis-information that people like to write.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

            Everyone is stuck in the "how to beat Google game."
            I love the smell of sweeping (and false) generalizations first thing in the morning.
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            • Profile picture of the author bougatsa
              What a waste of everyone's time this thread is!!

              I'm sure there's lessons in here BUT, on balance, c'mon mods, Rubbish like this should be voted/slapped into touch.....Pfffff
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            • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
              Harlan

              I just want to thank you for coming here and slumming it with the little people to deliver "the word".
              I know it must have been quite the sacrifice.




              I think it was a wise decision to leave the thread.

              Once a year it's good to take a flu shot, to stop an epidemic.
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          • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
            Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

            So while Lady GaGa News - Born This Way may be a curated site for a passionate topic (Lady Gaga), it's not a site that would fit into my model.
            It also appears to be a tad illegal. (Copyright violations)

            Some of the posts (articles) come from RSS feeds that provide the full content but others are scraped.

            Garrie
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            • Profile picture of the author Harlan
              Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

              It also appears to be a tad illegal. (Copyright violations)

              Some of the posts (articles) come from RSS feeds that provide the full content but others are scraped.

              Garrie
              Good catch.

              True curation does not scrape and does not quote the entire article or post.
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              • Profile picture of the author marketguy
                I find this thread fascinating as it teaches something i have instructed countless people on. No, i am not talking about "curating", i am talking about the most basic of all principles in sales.

                A sale is made on emotion and justified by logic.

                This thread is full of emotion. One could argue, that the "negative" emotions that showed themselves here are counterproductive to Harlans goal, when quite the opposite is true because:

                -the readers with positive emotions where looking forward to what was to come

                and

                -the readers with hostile emotions, where looking forward to arguing about what was to come.

                Either way, Harlin would have the opportunity to justify his idea by logic and turning negative into positive emotions.

                I am certain, that there will be members here, that will buy his product, but the worst case scenario for Harlan is, that people will remember this thread. Not a bad outcome for him, either way.
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      • Profile picture of the author Harlan
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Thanks to Mal's having listened in on the webinar and relayed what he heard, it's been surpassed.
        Mal is on my ignore list. But when you quoted him I had to go back and see what you were talking about.

        It was a bad move. When I read his notes, I snorted my decaf grande non fat no whip mocha out my nose and have to change my shirt.

        Thanks Paul.
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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
          Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

          Mal is on my ignore list. But when you quoted him I had to go back and see what you were talking about.

          It was a bad move. When I read his notes, I snorted my decaf grande non fat no whip mocha out my nose and have to change my shirt.

          Thanks Paul.
          Was it the yellow shirt you were wearing in the "beach millions" video?

          If it was that can only be seen as a fantastic result.

          Sorry, I just couldn't not let that one go.
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        • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

          Mal is on my ignore list. But when you quoted him I had to go back and see what you were talking about.

          It was a bad move. When I read his notes, I snorted my decaf grande non fat no whip mocha out my nose and have to change my shirt.

          Thanks Paul.
          You infer I mis-quoted you? It's more than "the gist of it" as Paul says. It's pretty much a blow-by-blow, word-by-word account. As fast as my carpal-tunneled, ex Broadsheet journalist old hands could type it. Go ahead Master - show me where the basis of your derision lies. I would be happy to publish a retraction if you think I've "verballed" you.

          BTW Dude...you might enjoy this 1984 book. It's one of my favorites - on collectible Hawaiian shirts - Amazon.com: The Hawaiian Shirt: Its Art and...Amazon.com: The Hawaiian Shirt: Its Art and...
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    Good lord, this thread is still going?

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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    Personally, this thread has been valuable to me. My opinion of Harlan remains the same, but this thread has evolved into something a great deal more than "about Harlan". As it stands now ... it's like ... who's Harlan.

    I learned what the "word" is ... curation. Not having heard it before in terms of Internet Marketing, I've done a lot of research on it, read a lot of articles. I am now a lot more knowledgeable on content curation and I didn't have to buy anything from ... who was that again?
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Suzanne,
      As it stands now ... it's like ... who's Harlan.
      I'm half wondering if his recent posts weren't an effort to correct that.

      I'm definitely ordering "Curation Nation," as soon as I can find where I put my Kindle...


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Suzanne,I'm half wondering if his recent posts weren't an effort to correct that.

        I'm definitely ordering "Curation Nation," as soon as I can find where I put my Kindle...


        Paul
        So am I. Actually curating sites is something I have been working on without actually knowing there was a big "word" for it. lol. But I'm all up for as much education I can get on anything that interests me and that looks like a worthy book to digest.
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        • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
          Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

          So am I. Actually curating sites is something I have been working on without actually knowing there was a big "word" for it. lol.
          That's one of the standard marketing practices for any niche (especially IM) - find something that exists and give it a new name so that you can talk about it like it's something new

          It's like 'bum marketing' - we were doing it for years before Travis branded it with that name and became an instant guru on it
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Okay, from my understanding of what a curation site is, would Wikipedia
            be considered a curation site?

            The reason I am asking is I always considered sites like Wikipedia broad
            authority sites as opposed to one site that specializes in one niche.

            So I guess my question is, what is the difference between a curation site
            and an authority site?

            I see a gray area here that I'm not getting.
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            • Profile picture of the author Harlan
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              Okay, from my understanding of what a curation site is, would Wikipedia
              be considered a curation site?

              The reason I am asking is I always considered sites like Wikipedia broad
              authority sites as opposed to one site that specializes in one niche.

              So I guess my question is, what is the difference between a curation site
              and an authority site?

              I see a gray area here that I'm not getting.
              Wiki is curated but not in the IM sense.

              A curated site BECOMES an authority site over time.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Andy,
            That's one of the standard marketing practices for any niche (especially IM) - find something that exists and give it a new name so that you can talk about it like it's something new.
            Let's be fair: Harlan didn't give it the name, or claim to. And it is a very good word for what's involved in the concept.

            Sometimes those new labels, when combined with a properly developed explanation, can have big value on their own. They can meld previously disparate processes into a conceptual framework that can be invoked with a single word or phrase.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Andy,Let's be fair: Harlan didn't give it the name, or claim to. And it is a very good word for what's involved in the concept.

              Sometimes those new labels, when combined with a properly developed explanation, can have big value on their own. They can meld previously disparate processes into a conceptual framework that can be invoked with a single word or phrase.


              Paul
              Agreed.

              I'm not knocking anyone for doing it - In fact, I'm saying that it's "normal" marketing practice. It's one of those things that copywriters love to do - find your usp and give it a new name.

              How many shampoos do we really need, yet each new one comes with some new micro-fibre, harmonizing, moisturizing, shine-compound, x-factor.

              It's just another way to call the same thing something new - afterall, new is good and old is boring

              So I'm not knocking the technique - just saying it's nothing new to do this. And the other side of the coin is - just because something has a new name - doesn't make it new.

              My comment wasn't about Harlan - just about the 'new' word and the fact that actually some people were already doing it and didn't know it because it hadn't been given that name before.
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  • Profile picture of the author JoshuaZamora
    Marketing will never die! Consumers are just dumb enough to fall for crappy products. I have bought several products and most of them are AWESOME it's just about implementation. Also doing good research on the product creator.
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    Clickbank....rant..rant...rant...
    While i DO agree with you, here some food for thought:

    When was the last time you saw a commercial on TV? (I personally dont watch TV, just as a side-note )

    In those commercials, infomercials etc..there is AS MUCH "fraud" going on as is with your avg. clickbank product, CPA or whatever.

    That's just how it is. We live in a world where MONEY rules *everything*. Your clickbank product is not any different from whatever other way how whatever other service or product is promoted in whatever other media.

    Go buy a new/used car at the dealer around the corner. Do you think its all in your YOUR benefit? Maybe that car is really only worth half of it, if even. You get the idea?
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Deegan
    Hey Harlan, can you give us more insights into your curated sites? Not the niches or anything like that.

    How long have your sites been running?
    What your current traffic like?
    Any tips on outsourcing curation management?

    I'm a big fan of the model...(for the most part)

    Food for thought...most people curate only fresh news...but why? Why not also categorize and archive older but useful relevant content as well, it provides more value and adds more authority.

    Personally my biggest issue with the curation model is that its not a very passive model. You could outsource the monitoring and maintenance of fresh content. But I think something that might be a good option for us on the warrior forum is to partner with 1 or 2 people and do some team curation. Think about it, if you have 3 people in 3 different time zones always staying on top of new news and content for a single market...
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by Daniel Deegan View Post

      Hey Harlan, can you give us more insights into your curated sites? Not the niches or anything like that.

      How long have your sites been running?
      What your current traffic like?
      Any tips on outsourcing curation management?

      I'm a big fan of the model...(for the most part)

      Food for thought...most people curate only fresh news...but why? Why not also categorize and archive older but useful relevant content as well, it provides more value and adds more authority.

      Personally my biggest issue with the curation model is that its not a very passive model. You could outsource the monitoring and maintenance of fresh content. But I think something that might be a good option for us on the warrior forum is to partner with 1 or 2 people and do some team curation. Think about it, if you have 3 people in 3 different time zones always staying on top of new news and content for a single market...
      Right now, we are at the stage of getting Google love. Even thought we are doing curation, the traffic will come when we hit the first page.

      We haven't done ANY linking at all. That will come after the Google love.

      Yes, you can curate old news. One site I discussed today involves a mix of old and fresh news.

      And right now, there just aren't people trained to curate. I would NOT turn over my curation right now to someone overseas.

      I do expect there will be full time work for curators in the near future.

      We are spending about 30 minutes per day (max) on each site and it's more than enough.

      Plus, these are some rather large niches.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Michael,
        You mention that then the traffic will come. So that means you don't have much traffic yet. Which means you are making very little with these sites. How can you charge $2000 for something you have never done yourself? Sure, you started the process but you are far from complete.
        If he's done enough research, that might be a reasonable thing for him to do. We don't know the research or other fact gathering that went into the product. And is there anything to it in the way of tools to help things along? I don't recall any mention of that?

        This is NOT an invitation for Harlan to jump in and promote the product. Just some things one might consider in coming up with their own answer, or things one might ask any product developer when a question like that comes to mind.

        It's a good question to ask, but the answer isn't always safe to assume, either way.

        Personally, I'm often a lot more interested in the stuff that goes on behind the public stage of the various models people promote. The shortcuts, software to make the process smoother and less time-consuming, security issues, and the other things that aren't as obvious from the outside.

        Those can often be the things that make or break sites.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          the worst case scenario for Harlan is, that people will remember this thread. Not a bad outcome for him, either way.
          That's hardly a given. It may turn out to be true, and it may not. Second-order effects can be very tricky to predict or control. Especially when you push the buttons that hard.


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          • Profile picture of the author marketguy
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            That's hardly a given. It may turn out to be true, and it may not. Second-order effects can be very tricky to predict or control. Especially when you push the buttons that hard.


            Paul
            I am not here to defend, or to take sides, but did you notice, how negative posts went down and a discussion about the product began?
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              I am not here to defend, or to take sides, but did you notice, how negative posts went down and a discussion about the product began?
              Making reasonable comments and asking reasonable questions isn't anything you'd need to defend.

              I'd say the discussion turned more to the concept, personally. I consider that a very good thing, as it's a valuable point of conversation.

              Rosenbaum's book (Curation Nation) looks to be an interesting read. I'm looking at it the first time through with an eye to mixing his concepts with a collaborative publishing model.


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            • Profile picture of the author ExRat
              Hi marketguy,

              the readers with hostile emotions, where looking forward to arguing about what was to come.
              Thanks for the assumption - you actually hit on an important point with your misjudgment.

              Marketers, politicians and all of those people who twist, spin and lie, often leave hidden consequences. They twist people's thinking around so many times that it goes beyond inside-out and becomes faulty and they start to see negativity everywhere - even when it's not even there.

              Sometimes, it's not a bad idea to counter vicious lies and blanket judgments (in reference to the OP, not your post) with an equal level of ferocity of truth. I believe this to be what I have tried to do here.

              It's not always accurate to observe that level of ferocity as reason to believe that the person delivering it is enjoying doing so, unless you include the aspect of educational value or simply 'righting wrongs.'

              The way you are expressing this is a bit like saying - 'the people who's country was illegally and mercilessly invaded were eagerly awaiting the opportunity to repel the invaders and put things right again with a kind of sickening bloodlust.'

              As Martin mentioned above (post #466), if the same facts had been delivered in a different manner by Harlan as he went on to do later on in the thread, none of the problems would have occurred and the outcome would have been entirely different.

              Contrary to your suggestion, some of the people with criticisms in this thread prefer and take pleasure from liking people and thanking them for acts which contribute positively to the community rather than doing the opposite (the evidence of this is all around us.) To suggest that the opposite is true is to play into the hands of Harlan, or typically, 'the gurus' - you know, the types who suggest that anyone who disagrees with an arrogant, misleading post by a 'guru' is a bitter and twisted loser/hater.

              Speaking for myself, as someone who has demonstrated hostility in this thread, I'd just like to point out that I'm adequately in control of my emotions and my motivations are not only selfishly educationally-orientated and selfishly personal-brand-orientated but also linked to 'the good of the group' or alternatively - 'the good of those who don't know better and who might be misled.'

              It's in the interest of the group, whether typically a buyer/consumer or an out and out marketer/seller, to become more capable at recognising and understanding the nature of spin, lies and deception. This thread provides a perfect opportunity and I like to make a habit of pouncing on those opportunities for the reasons given in the previous paragraph.
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        • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Personally, I'm often a lot more interested in the stuff that goes on behind the public stage of the various models people promote. The shortcuts, software to make the process smoother and less time-consuming, security issues, and the other things that aren't as obvious from the outside.

          Those can often be the things that make or break sites.

          Paul
          I checked out quite a few of the magnify.net sites and here's my thoughts:

          1. Footprints. When every man and his dog are using the same template (and the cheaper ripoffs) how long before the search engines de-authoritize these kind of sites?


          2. Most of these sites look really messy to me. Although alltop.com doesn't seem to fit fully into the curation definition (lack of proprietary editorial comment), it does a much better job of organizing and categorizing information.

          3. Gary has already highlighted the scraping issue. The videos also seem to strip out reference to their site of origin in their thumbnail summary. It's only after you click through that you find out it's a Youtube/Dailymotion/etc video. The embed code uses an iframe to link back to the curation site not the original video. For example, here is an embed code from vidiac.com (magnify.net's top site)

          <iframe src="http://www.vidiac.com/video/MLS-D-C-s-newest-addition-Charl/player?layout=&read_more=1" width="320" height="376" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>

          TOS violation?


          4. Essentially, it seems you are paying magnify.net to help build THEIR authority. And they seem to have substantial control of 'your' virtual real estate. It might be better to give magnify.net a miss for the same reasons people are nervous about using Blogger.com for money-generating sites.


          Curation sites are a great idea, but why give money and control to a middleman?


          Martin


          P.S. I was just remembering about all the excitement a few years back about 'silo' sites. When I discovered what the term meant, I thought, "But isn't that how people build websites anyway?" I think, because one-page squeezepage sites were all the rage, people overlooked the basics. Then siloing was rediscovered and made the 'pioneers' instant thought leaders.

          I think I'm going to call this process Abba-fication.

          Everybody takes the piss out of us oldies who like Abba. Then every few years an Abba song is 'discovered' by teenagers and it becomes all the rage.

          "Hey, pops. Have you heard this cool new song called 'Dancing Queen?' "
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          • Profile picture of the author Harlan
            Originally Posted by Martin Luxton View Post

            I checked out quite a few of the magnify.net sites and here's my thoughts:

            1. Footprints. When every man and his dog are using the same template (and the cheaper ripoffs) how long before the search engines de-authoritize these kind of sites?


            2. Most of these sites look really messy to me. Although alltop.com doesn't seem to fit fully into the curation definition (lack of proprietary editorial comment), it does a much better job of organizing and categorizing information.

            3. Gary has already highlighted the scraping issue. The videos also seem to strip out reference to their site of origin in their thumbnail summary. It's only after you click through that you find out it's a Youtube/Dailymotion/etc video. The embed code uses an iframe to link back to the curation site not the original video. For example, here is an embed code from vidiac.com (magnify.net's top site)

            <iframe src="http://www.vidiac.com/video/MLS-D-C-s-newest-addition-Charl/player?layout=&read_more=1" width="320" height="376" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>

            TOS violation?


            4. Essentially, it seems you are paying magnify.net to help build THEIR authority. And they seem to have substantial control of 'your' virtual real estate. It might be better to give magnify.net a miss for the same reasons people are nervous about using Blogger.com for money-generating sites.


            Curation sites are a great idea, but why give money and control to a middleman?


            Martin
            I would never build a magnify hosted site.

            Most of these sites are just aggregating content and not curating it. There's a difference.

            But a curated video site with full credit to the source? That would be worth something.

            From time to time on a curated site, someone can ask you to remove a post. It may be a blogger mad that your site outranks his etc.

            At this point you have to deal with choices between fair use and bad karma and make your own best choice.
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            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              From time to time on a curated site, someone can ask you to remove a post. It may be a blogger mad that your site outranks his etc.

              At this point you have to deal with choices between fair use and bad karma and make your own best choice.

              EDITED: Blanket Statement removed.

              If I received such a communication from a blogger, I would remove his quote from the story and the link to his website.

              If you are doing this in the way that I had assumed you were doing it until I saw this post, then any information you had taken from another source, for inclusion in your article, will have been done within the scope of the Fair Use guidelines for Copyright information.

              With this post, I have to ask if you are advising people to write stories based on other stories, or if you are advising people to wholesale copy-and-paste content from other sites?
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Bill,
                If a blogger has to ask you to take down a post, for any reason, then you are doing something wrong.
                Not necessarily. You'd be amazed at the requests some people make, and their absurd reasons for making them.

                And sometimes no-one is doing anything wrong in any ethical sense. I made a rather stupid gaffe when I was blogging one time previously. I asked someone to remove a post he'd copied after I'd posted it to my blog. I pinged a site, and hadn't read the agreement for using the service.

                Ooops. By pinging that site, I had agreed to let other blogs use the post.

                Yes, I felt immensely dumb. No, the other guy did nothing wrong. I just removed that service, and several others, from my list. I was relieved only that I'd made the request in a civil tone, rather than blasting the guy for something I had unwittingly given him permission to do.


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                • Profile picture of the author tpw
                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Bill,Not necessarily. You'd be amazed at the requests some people make, and their absurd reasons for making them.

                  And sometimes no-one is doing anything wrong in any ethical sense. I made a rather stupid gaffe when I was blogging one time previously. I asked someone to remove a post he'd copied after I'd posted it to my blog. I pinged a site, and hadn't read the agreement for using the service.

                  Ooops. By pinging that site, I had agreed to let other blogs use the post.

                  Yes, I felt immensely dumb. No, the other guy did nothing wrong. I just removed that service, and several others, from my list. I was relieved only that I'd made the request in a civil tone, rather than blasting the guy for something I had unwittingly given him permission to do.


                  Paul

                  I know you are correct about the fact that some people give some of the silliest reasons for take-down requests.

                  My mother built a history website. One day she was complaining about "this woman" -- and my mom was angry, who was "copying her entire website."

                  I promised to help.

                  I had her show me the site that was in violation of her copyright, and all the woman had done was to link to my mom's site, as an "excellent resource".

                  The only thing the woman had actually done to anger my mother was to link to the content directly, rather than through her framed site. :rolleyes:
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              • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                If a blogger has to ask you to take down a post, for any reason, then you are doing something wrong.
                Not so. In many cases they don't like that you out rank them.
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                • Profile picture of the author tpw
                  Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                  If a blogger has to ask you to take down a post, for any reason, then you are doing something wrong.
                  Not so. In many cases they don't like that you out rank them.

                  If they are only mad that you outrank them, then why would you take down the post?

                  If my version of the content outranks theirs, then they can go pout in a corner as far as I am concerned.

                  The only way that I would ever consider a take-down request is if I had done something wrong.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Bill,
                    If they are only mad that you outrank them, then why would you take down the post?
                    Because, according to you, the fact that they asked means you have done something wrong. In your exact words: If a blogger has to ask you to take down a post, for any reason, then you are doing something wrong.

                    You don't get to slam Harlan for making absolute comments that are wrong and then do the same thing yourself in the same thread.


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                    • Profile picture of the author tpw
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      Bill,Because, according to you, the fact that they asked means you have done something wrong. In your exact words: If a blogger has to ask you to take down a post, for any reason, then you are doing something wrong.

                      You don't get to slam Harlan for making absolute comments that are wrong and then do the same thing yourself in the same thread.Paul

                      Haha... Good point...

                      I edited that out of my original post.



                      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

                      IWhenever the situation was reversed and someone outranked me for my content - I considered them a resource to be nutured and helped them use even more of my stuff to increase their exposure - because at the end of the day they're still showing people my content and my links.

                      Andy

                      Andy: I do the same.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                    If they are only mad that you outrank them, then why would you take down the post?

                    If my version of the content outranks theirs, then they can go pout in a corner as far as I am concerned.

                    The only way that I would ever consider a take-down request is if I had done something wrong.
                    I've had this a bunch of times over the years - people syndicate their content because they want to get it seen and then my sites outrank theirs for all the terms they were chasing and so they throw their toys out and want all their syndicated content taken off.

                    At first I thought this was a legitimate complaint but then I realised I outranked them for all their keywords regardless of their content anyway - so it was actually more to do with them not being able to get decent results and resenting others who did.

                    Whenever the situation was reversed and someone outranked me for my content - I considered them a resource to be nutured and helped them use even more of my stuff to increase their exposure - because at the end of the day they're still showing people my content and my links.

                    Andy
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                    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
                      Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

                      I've had this a bunch of times over the years - people syndicate their content because they want to get it seen and then my sites outrank theirs for all the terms they were chasing and so they throw their toys out and want all their syndicated content taken off.

                      At first I thought this was a legitimate complaint but then I realised I outranked them for all their keywords regardless of their content anyway - so it was actually more to do with them not being able to get decent results and resenting others who did.

                      Whenever the situation was reversed and someone outranked me for my content - I considered them a resource to be nutured and helped them use even more of my stuff to increase their exposure - because at the end of the day they're still showing people my content and my links.

                      Andy
                      Andy, that's a great view to have regarding content aggregation sites who outrank you - after all, your content is still there, and you're getting exposure for your links. The only scenario in which this'd be an issue is when websites are stealing content outright from you, but otherwise you should encourage them to use more of your syndicated content as that will only give you additional prime exposure.

                      Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                    Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                    If they are only mad that you outrank them, then why would you take down the post?

                    If my version of the content outranks theirs, then they can go pout in a corner as far as I am concerned.

                    The only way that I would ever consider a take-down request is if I had done something wrong.
                    It's way more common than you think.
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                    • Profile picture of the author tpw
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                      • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                        So if you get a take-down request, do you?

                        And if so, why?
                        I would take it down. I have way more content than they do.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                          Anyone who wishes to discuss this topic without the garbage from this thread, please proceed to http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...word-then.html

                          Please note that I will not tolerate personal attacks or references back to this thread in that one. I think the subject deserves proper treatment, and I don't think it will get it here. Nor do I think a lot of people will read through 11 pages of the bile in this thread to get it.

                          Nothing from this thread follows over there.


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      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
        Originally Posted by Michael D View Post

        You mention that then the traffic will come. So that means you don't have much traffic yet. Which means you are making very little with these sites. How can you charge $2000 for something you have never done yourself? Sure, you started the process but you are far from complete.
        This is what most WSOs are like. Someone has an idea and can't wait to get results before they start trying to make money selling the concept to others. In fact, if this thread was started by a newbie and not Harlan there would usually be a queue of people telling them to "sell this as a WSO". It's one of the reasons we have all the problems that people complain about in this niche. Someone gets an idea about a new way to talk about something that was already around - they give it a new title/name - there's a mad dash to be seen as an expert in the new thing and jump onboard selling stuff with the new name is the title.

        Look at the 'offline marketing' cycles that go on here. We've talked it to death many times over the years, but every now and again there's a big push by lots of newbies who've made nothing or very little actually doing it but feel that they should create a product in order to cash in on the apparent demand.

        I've been PM'd so many times I've lost count from people asking me to review their upcoming WSO and they've never actually done what they're talking about.

        If people manage to get Curation to take off as a 'new' concept of interest you can bet your ass there'll be dozens of wsos about it in a very short time. There are a group of people who spend most of their time trying to work out what to sell as a WSO and they'll literally create anything they think people will buy - regardless of their experience or success with it.

        The irony of it all is that the people who will get most excited about it are the very people who don't need it because they already have enough knowledge to be doing something very successfully but just haven't commited and this will be just the next fad thing they waste more time and money hoping will be their answer.

        Many of us have been doing curation for years already and don't need a new name for it in order to carry on. For most people this will be nothing more than just another distraction from what they should be doing. I'm almost tempted to ignore anything said about it now just because I know it'll annoy me when gullible people start to rave about it as some new amazing thing and won't realise that it's all been said before in this very forum many times over many years.
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        • Profile picture of the author ExRat
          Hi Andy,

          I agree with your points, but would like to also add a different angle.

          Much of the momentum behind this idea is based upon the high value given to the Huffington Post. This is also a typical marketing strategy - take one distorted occurrence and build something quickly from sand upon it.

          There are many reasons for the high value, one of which could be that the mainstream media is currently SO full of lies and misinformation, that people looking for more accurate information are realising that if they can locate a large congregation of informed public who are all sharing their thoughts as comment and conducting ongoing debate, they can survey this comment and get a good idea of the general consensus of opinion.

          Conversely, in terms of internet marketing this 'curation' is actually going directly against current trends, when viewed in terms of what Google is trying to achieve.

          Therein lies another aspect of the deception.

          For example -

          The newest thing that we should all be getting into is 'communication.' Facebook has been given a huge value (for reasons that I will deliberately avoid getting into) therefore you should all buy my course about 'how to create your own facebook' - (create your own twitter thrown in as a bonus.)

          Those who don't jump on this quickly will miss out on the next big wave.

          Blah....
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        • Profile picture of the author marketguy
          Originally Posted by ExRat View Post

          Hi marketguy,

          Thanks for the assumption - you actually hit on an important point with your misjudgment.

          Marketers, politicians and all of those people who twist, spin and lie, often leave hidden consequences. They twist people's thinking around so many times that it goes beyond inside-out and becomes faulty and they start to see negativity everywhere - even when it's not even there.

          Sometimes, it's not a bad idea to counter vicious lies and blanket judgments (in reference to the OP, not your post) with an equal level of ferocity of truth. I believe this to be what I have tried to do here.

          It's not always accurate to observe that level of ferocity as reason to believe that the person delivering it is enjoying doing so, unless you include the aspect of educational value or simply 'righting wrongs.'

          The way you are expressing this is a bit like saying - 'the people who's country was illegally and mercilessly invaded were eagerly awaiting the opportunity to repel the invaders and put things right again with a kind of sickening bloodlust.'

          As Martin mentioned above (post #466), if the same facts had been delivered in a different manner by Harlan as he went on to do later on in the thread, none of the problems would have occurred and the outcome would have been entirely different.

          Contrary to your suggestion, some of the people with criticisms in this thread prefer and take pleasure from liking people and thanking them for acts which contribute positively to the community rather than doing the opposite (the evidence of this is all around us.) To suggest that the opposite is true is to play into the hands of Harlan, or typically, 'the gurus' - you know, the types who suggest that anyone who disagrees with an arrogant, misleading post by a 'guru' is a bitter and twisted loser/hater.

          Speaking for myself, as someone who has demonstrated hostility in this thread, I'd just like to point out that I'm adequately in control of my emotions and my motivations are not only selfishly educationally-orientated and selfishly personal-brand-orientated but also linked to 'the good of the group' or alternatively - 'the good of those who don't know better and who might be misled.'

          It's in the interest of the group, whether typically a buyer/consumer or an out and out marketer/seller, to become more capable at recognising and understanding the nature of spin, lies and deception. This thread provides a perfect opportunity and I like to make a habit of pouncing on those opportunities for the reasons given in the previous paragraph.
          Originally Posted by Andyhenry View Post

          This is what most WSOs are like. Someone has an idea and can't wait to get results before they start trying to make money selling the concept to others. In fact, if this thread was started by a newbie and not Harlan there would usually be a queue of people telling them to "sell this as a WSO". It's one of the reasons we have all the problems that people complain about in this niche. Someone gets an idea about a new way to talk about something that was already around - they give it a new title/name - there's a mad dash to be seen as an expert in the new thing and jump onboard selling stuff with the new name is the title.

          Look at the 'offline marketing' cycles that go on here. We've talked it to death many times over the years, but every now and again there's a big push by lots of newbies who've made nothing or very little actually doing it but feel that they should create a product in order to cash in on the apparent demand.

          I've been PM'd so many times I've lost count from people asking me to review their upcoming WSO and they've never actually done what they're talking about.

          If people manage to get Curation to take off as a 'new' concept of interest you can bet your ass there'll be dozens of wsos about it in a very short time. There are a group of people who spend most of their time trying to work out what to sell as a WSO and they'll literally create anything they think people will buy - regardless of their experience or success with it.

          The irony of it all is that the people who will get most excited about it are the very people who don't need it because they already have enough knowledge to be doing something very successfully but just haven't commited and this will be just the next fad thing they waste more time and money hoping will be their answer.

          Many of us have been doing curation for years already and don't need a new name for it in order to carry on. For most people this will be nothing more than just another distraction from what they should be doing. I'm almost tempted to ignore anything said about it now just because I know it'll annoy me when gullible people start to rave about it as some new amazing thing and won't realise that it's all been said before in this very forum many times over many years.
          I appreciate your response, although i think you did not understand what i said and that may be very much my fault.

          Let me try again. My post was a generalization of what people that make comments like the ones discussed think. If this does not apply to you...good for you. There are always exceptions to the rule.
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          • Profile picture of the author ExRat
            Hi marketguy,

            Either way, Harlin would have the opportunity to justify his idea by logic and turning negative into positive emotions.

            I am certain, that there will be members here, that will buy his product, but the worst case scenario for Harlan is, that people will remember this thread. Not a bad outcome for him, either way.
            There are two points here where I think you are mistaken.

            He didn't justify his idea by logic, he has tried to justify it by deception. This 'idea' of his is not flowing with the trend, it's flowing against it (RE - Google.) He based his idea on faulty logic - that this type of copy-cat 'curation' is in the ascendancy and this was based on a spurious example.

            This is a common deception, which I tried to demonstrate above by explaining that just because facebook is worth a lot of money, does not necessarily mean that all of us can run off with facebook clone scripts and also make a lot of money with facebook clone sites.

            The other mistake is to assume that it's 'not a bad outcome, either way' - unless you think that possibly grabbing a few overpriced sales makes up for making a complete idiot of himself and insulting everyone in the process - 'because we are not his market.' Well if any of us ever were, we are certainly not any more.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gail_Curran
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

      A good place to start is the book Curation Nation.

      And that's my last word on the subject.
      Well not entirely your last but still, it's your thread, so to speak.

      I do like a man of his word.
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      Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    I got on the webinar because of this thread. I found it interesting and thought provoking. Plenty to agree with. Plenty to disagree with. It did not waste my time.

    It is just another "model" on how to make money. One that will work for some and not for others.

    Now, of course, someone will come along next month and say the 'guru' curation model does not work and here is why ______. What they don't tell you when taking your $2k is _____________. But I have something that does work, which you can see by visiting these sites ___________. Just pay me $___ and I'll give you the software and easy blueprint to make millions sitting on the beach. And by the way, since I'm adding a group coaching program there is fake scarcity so buy now.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

      I got on the webinar because of this thread. I found it interesting and thought provoking. Plenty to agree with. Plenty to disagree with. It did not waste my time.
      Hi Mr Kindsvater, I hope you're well, this isn't directed at you, just a mini rant but far less so than the OP's and without financial gain.

      I just hope everyone's happy when I have my webinar and pop along here first, to slag off all and sundry, tell everyone they're crap and they're not even good enough to be my students, just to get the 11,250 odd views this thread got and promote my stuff.

      Got to hand it to Harlan.

      Still, I'm just a mug.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

      I got on the webinar because of this thread. I found it interesting and thought provoking. Plenty to agree with. Plenty to disagree with. It did not waste my time.

      It is just another "model" on how to make money. One that will work for some and not for others.
      Thanks for joining me. Your legal stuff saved my butt with Google - well, at first anyway.

      No internet marketing model is one size fits all. It's a new direction for some Internet marketers. But it's definitely not a get rick quick model.

      Curation is a low risk model but it's only of interest of someone who wants to build a business - not make a quick score.

      The interesting thing about building a curation site in the correct niche is the raving fans you get.

      If you DON'T post new content, people inquire if everything is okay.

      People want their curated content fix.
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      Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post


        A curated site BECOMES an authority site over time.

        Everytime you write something here I can't help but think you draw unsubstantiated conclusions and assume too much.

        Whether a site is curated or not doesn't mean a site will become an "authority" site. There are many other factors that contribute to this "status".

        I try to deal in facts as much as I can and there are many apparent "facts" in IM which are nothing of the sort. Only by carefully reading something and doing your own backup research can one make educated conclusions.

        Otherwise there are countless blind alleys one can venture down.
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        • Profile picture of the author Harlan
          Originally Posted by Steadyon View Post

          Whether a site is curated or not doesn't mean a site will become an "authority" site. There are many other factors that contribute to this "status".
          You are absolutely correct. And if you don't follow the appropriate strategies, it is unlikely that you will become an authority site.

          But I'm willing to bet, it's easier for a well curated site to become an authority site faster than a non-curated site.

          It doesn't matter but it's a guess.
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          Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
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          • Profile picture of the author Harlan
            Your own curated site? For free?

            Check out Upload video. Aggregate and curate video from multiple sources. Mix your pro, user gen, and web gathered content with Magnify.net

            This site built by the author of Curation Nation.
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            • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              ...
              Google is changing. It's linking strategy and content strategy isn't working. And they acknowledge it.

              Now think of the Internet. How vast the information superhighway is. And the amount of information doubles every 72 hours.

              It's impossible to plow through.

              Take the average surfer. My mother in law was just diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. If you type in alternative therapies for cancer you get 2.2 million hits. It's impossible to go through and evaluate the information. There aren't enough hours in the day to do so.

              That's where curated sites come in. People form an allegiance to curated sites and return to them daily.

              ...
              Harlan, just in case I'm not on your ignore list, I want to thank you for this post. It was lucid, rational and made a lot of sense.

              I'm even enjoying your later contributions to this thread.

              BTW, I've never had anything against you personally.

              In one thread, I made an admittedly off-topic remark about your resembling Andy Rooney in one of your videos. That was not meant as an insult, although you seem to have taken it that way. I simply saw both a slight physical resemblance and a similarity in your delivery. I thought it was interesting, that's all.

              In another thread, I did take a shot at what you posted. You lashed out, saying that all I ever did was personally insult you. I lashed back, with instructions on the ignore list. Ancient history, as far as I'm concerned.

              I, too, will be tracking down a copy of Curation Nation...

              Pax, Dr. Kilstein...
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  • Profile picture of the author MMMConsulting
    The way I see it, the only people making money online are the ones taking consistent ACTION, and the ones struggling arent, and these struggling ones are the ones that constantly buy and buy and buy!

    Point being, money can be made, but are you willing to put the effort in and just do it? Guru or no Guru, everyone can make money.
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  • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
    This 'curation' method has been around for quite some time so I'm not sure how it is unique and ground breaking. Internet marketer's, especially from the BH community have been modelling their sites off some of the ones you mentioned for years. This is where the whole autoblog craze came from. There are guys who have this down to a fine art, not the type of autoblogs you see on here.

    Like everything, some people do it better than others. But people still have been creating them. They don't have to be autoblogs and they often aren't.

    Even a basic Adsense model uses the 'curation' method of creating a vast resource of knowledge that allows people to get all the info they need from the one location. They didn't purposefully go out and create a 'curated' site but they did end up with one.

    Another popular way of getting fast organic traffic is by following the latest news of the larger sites and pooling the content into an easily read form for the reader. Acknowledging the original site does no harm either. Win them over with quality regularly updated content and they do come back for more. Google Trends makes it super simple to really rake in the traffic by referencing and presenting other people's work. Once again, an old technique.

    Actually, the original Hilltop algorithm (which Google aquired) talks about curation sites in its scientific report. They talk about how that breaking sites up into Authority and Hubs allows them to work out the most relevant sites for a niche. They combine both the hubs and the authorities into the search results depending on the type of query.

    A hub is a site that links out to multiple authority sites. An authority site is a related page that is linked to by multiple hubs.

    A curated site is nothing but a hub with carefully crafted content to encourage discussion and community participation - to attract return visitors. This discussion has come up many times in the SEO section of this forum.

    What I find interesting is that Google has put Content Farms on their radar. If these curated sites are done poorly they will appear as nothing but a content farm.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      I obviously invented curation earlier than I thought.

      I haven't seen the Black Hat community doing ethical curation.

      I have seen people scraping and auto-posting for years.

      That has been around for years. Heck, I wrote the copy for Blog Power years ago.

      Which I think had a useful life of about a week and a half before Google banned it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
      Originally Posted by Fraggler View Post

      This 'curation' method has been around for quite some time so I'm not sure how it is unique and ground breaking.

      A curated site is nothing but a hub with carefully crafted content to encourage discussion and community participation - to attract return visitors. This discussion has come up many times in the SEO section of this forum.
      Exactly... But that wouldn't sound new and cool would it. It's much easier to get gullible newbies to pay top dollar for something with a new name than for the same thing they already knew about.
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      nothing to see here.

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  • Profile picture of the author Rsberg
    I was trying very hard to ignore this thread after the last 2 threads started by the OP (which were met with much the same response in general).

    After reading through it (painstakingly I might add), I did get some good out of it (mostly from other posters) but all in all it does appear this is now the 3rd thread started in as many weeks (less I believe to be honest) by the OP in an attempt to push what is now being revealed as his "product"...

    The first two were attacks on autoblogging (or at least that’s the way they ended up) and this one now leads to a product that is somewhat related to autoblogging (even if there are some variations).

    After reading it and giving it careful consideration I now have the first person to add to my ignore list...
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  • Profile picture of the author WD Mino
    So yet again someone comes bashing the "gurus' whatever that means If people spent less time complaining about the crap other people are selling and more time doing something to be an alternative of quality they could clean up instead of just moving the dirt from one stinky pile to the next

    -Will
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by WD Mino View Post

      So yet again someone comes bashing the "gurus' whatever that means If people spent less time complaining about the crap other people are selling and more time doing something to be an alternative of quality they could clean up instead of just moving the dirt from one stinky pile to the next

      -Will
      Will, complaining and pointing the finger at others will never get us anywhere, and sometimes we forget how unproductive this activity is, and how it can derail us from our own efforts just by being caught up in the drama and chaos. There's been a lot of noise in this main discussion forum recently, and investing too much effort and emotion in these types of threads is probably not the most constructive or positive use of our time.

      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author sanssecret
        Wow, I can't believe I just read through 11 pages of this. Some of it is pure gold, most of it is stuff of a different colour.

        But I don't think I've ever handed out as many thanks in one thread.
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        The man who views the world at fifty the same as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. ~Muhammad Ali
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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by sanssecret View Post

          Wow, I can't believe I just read through 11 pages of this. Some of it is pure gold, most of it is stuff of a different colour.

          But I don't think I've ever handed out as many thanks in one thread.
          You British are always so diplomatic and tactful. I probably wouldn't be as charitable as you in describing this stuff "of a different color"...lol!

          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
            Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

            You British are always so diplomatic and tactful. I probably wouldn't be as charitable as you in describing this stuff "of a different color"...lol!

            Paul
            For you paul,

            this thread has the same addiction as cigerette smoking.

            Caleb
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            Canadian Expat Living in Medellin, Colombia

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            • Profile picture of the author paulie888
              Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen View Post

              For you paul,

              this thread has the same addiction as cigerette smoking.

              Caleb
              Caleb, I don't smoke cigarettes, and never have, so I know not of this addiction that you refer to.

              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                Harlan,

                I believe I was being polite when I mentioned that this was not an invitation for you to come in and plug your product. If you can discuss it without that, you're welcome to do so.


                Paul
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                • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  Harlan,

                  I believe I was being polite when I mentioned that this was not an invitation for you to come in and plug your product. If you can discuss it without that, you're welcome to do so.


                  Paul
                  Paul:

                  1. I'm not plugging my product. I'm responding to someone's criticism. Being unable to do that seems unfair to me but it's your playground.


                  2. I began my post stating flatly people don't need my product - or ANYONE'S product to do curation. If that seems like a plug, I'm missing something here.

                  3. I mentioned that I'm not selling my product at all and I've refused selling it to people. That's a plug?

                  Explain that to me. It's your playground.

                  PS. I've seen you've deleted my post explaining myself. Okay then. The delete key is mightier than the sword. Hasta pasta.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Harlan,

                    The comments about selling the consultation are what I was referring to. You'd normally get a bit more room than that, but you started this thread, and you appear to have intended it as an ad. You've had ample opportunity to correct that impression if it's a mistaken one.

                    Given your disdainful comments about the membership here earlier, I am not overly concerned about your ideas of what is and is not 'fair,' sir. I have, despite that, deleted a number of posts I believed went over the line.

                    And for the record: This is not 'my' anything. Nor is it a playground.


                    Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Harlan,
                    PS. I've seen you've deleted my post explaining myself. Okay then. The delete key is mightier than the sword.
                    And the ones that responded to it. I considered your 'explanation' to be self-promotional, and leaving the responses would have been genuinely and objectively unfair.

                    If you wish to repost your comments without the parts I mentioned in my previous post, I'll be happy to leave them posted. Most of the main post which was removed was fine, but I didn't feel it appropriate, under the circumstances, to edit the salesy part out of the thing for you.


                    Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                    Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                    2. I began my post stating flatly people don't need my product - or ANYONE'S product to do curation. If that seems like a plug, I'm missing something here.
                    You are joking right?

                    You immediately followed that statement with ------ HOWEVER MY SOFTWARE WILL HELP THEM DO IT BETTER AND QUICKER.....

                    And you don't see what people are picking up on ?

                    You almost had a sweet spot there where people were willing to listen to what you had to say about the subject but you keep polluting it with mentions of what you're selling.

                    I can't believe you can't see that you're doing this. Maybe you're just so used to dropping promos that you genuinely don't realise you're doing it - and maybe most of the time that's ok - but you don't seem to have taken onboard the fact that this is not some random public forum - it's an actual community of people, many of whom care about each other and the community and are happy to put their head above the parapet to call you out when you do this stuff.

                    Despite what you seem to think - this isn't some sort of conspiracy to stop you talking or even to take pot shots at you. If you dropped the pretence and just wanted to talk about the subject - you wouldn't get this backlash.

                    Look in the mirror before condeming this community as a bunch of negative people who won't let you speak.

                    It's a community - you get out what you put in.

                    We're real people.
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                    nothing to see here.

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                    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                      Okay Paul here's my summary.

                      Don't buy my product.

                      Don't buy anyone's product.

                      Curation sites will probably be worth a great deal money.

                      Curation is not a get rich quick scheme.

                      Read Curation Nation.
                      Signature

                      Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
                      Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
                      http://overnight-copy.com
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                      • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                        Okay Paul here's my summary.

                        Don't buy my product.

                        Don't buy anyone's product.

                        Curation sites will probably be worth a great deal money.

                        Curation is not a get rich quick scheme.

                        Read Curation Nation.
                        Ok - now I know you're messing with us.

                        Even in your readers-digest shortened version you mentioned your product (yes - "don't BUY MY PRODUCT" does count - come on, you're an NLPer and a copywriter)
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                        nothing to see here.

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                        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                          Andy,

                          Let's not be paranoid here. I read that more as "I really don't feel like re-typing the whole thing I just typed, based on a line or two having been considered a problem." And that would not be an unreasonable way to feel.

                          Sometimes a cigar really is just an exploding gag.

                          Edited to add: If you're going to look for a hidden promo trick, the "I refused to sell it" line is a much more credible target. It's been used before, only to later be followed by, "But the masses demanded it, and I finally had to relent."


                          Paul
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                          • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                            Andy,

                            Let's not be paranoid here. I read that more as "I really don't feel like re-typing the whole thing I just typed, based on a line or two having been considered a problem." And that would not be an unreasonable way to feel.

                            Sometimes a cigar really is just an exploding gag.

                            Paul
                            Agreed - If it wasn't for Harlan being a self-proclaimed NLP and copywriting Expert I wouldn't have even mentioned it.

                            I'm an NLPer and I know I couldn't type something like that without knowing the implication, but maybe I am making assumptions that aren't valid, I'm open to being put right but I'm also prepared to highlight smoke signals.

                            I guess that's one of the themes of this thread (and lessons?) - that when you train people to expect certain behaviour from you - they look for it.
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                            nothing to see here.

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                            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                              Andy,
                              I guess that's one of the themes of this thread (and lessons?) - that when you train people to expect certain behaviour from you - they look for it.
                              That is an excellent point.

                              Mind you, I'm not saying you're right or wrong. Just how I'd look at it barring any other reason to view things differently. Still, you make an excellent point here.


                              Paul
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                            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                              Johnny Slater said everything I wanted to say but didn't for personal reasons
                              that I won't get into here.

                              So this reply is for Johnny.

                              Thank you for calling it as I am sure many people here see it.

                              At least it's the way I see it.

                              And it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

                              Another nail in the "why so many people hate Internet marketers" coffin.

                              Is it any wonder?

                              (going back to work out of pure disgust)
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                              • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                                Curation 2.0...

                                You heard it here first folks!

                                You heard it here first.

                                Yes, I am taking credit for coining the term. And if for some strange reason you dig up a citation where someone else has used the term before, I guarantee you they didn't have my insights on the subject.

                                Curation 2.0, it's headed your way...

                                ~Bill
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                                • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
                                  Bill I thought you would have been more original than that.

                                  How about ViralCuration?

                                  It suits you better. :rolleyes:

                                  Have a Great Day!
                                  Michael
                                  Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

                                  Curation 2.0...

                                  You heard it here first folks!

                                  You heard it here first.

                                  Yes, I am taking credit for coining the term. And if for some strange reason you dig up a citation where someone else has used the term before, I guarantee you they didn't have my insights on the subject.

                                  Curation 2.0, it's headed your way...

                                  ~Bill
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
                                    Michael,

                                    Originally Posted by Michael Mayo View Post

                                    Bill I thought you would have been more original than that.

                                    How about ViralCuration?

                                    It suits you better. :rolleyes:

                                    Have a Great Day!
                                    Michael
                                    Bill ~ could make a nice theme song, and a video... I can hear it now.

                                    "VIRAL CURATION ~~ CURATION NATION ~~" Oh wait, that's just like those kids beside me listening to those weird songs

                                    Caleb
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                                    Canadian Expat Living in Medellin, Colombia

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                                  • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                                    Originally Posted by Michael Mayo View Post

                                    Bill I thought you would have been more original than that.

                                    How about ViralCuration?
                                    Hmmm...let me give that some thought.

                                    But right now I'm considering targeting all the newbies who've never heard of Sidewiki. So I'm sort of tied up planning that campaign at the moment going for those Sidewiki dollars just sitting there on the table. Afterall, that was supposed to be the next big thing...:rolleyes:

                                    But I want a positive twist on the thread title when I start the buzz, so how does this subject line sound..."How The Clueless Grow Their Money"?

                                    ~Bill
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              • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
                Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

                Caleb, I don't smoke cigarettes, and never have, so I know not of this addiction that you refer to.

                Paul
                Paul,

                Think about any type of addiction. Such as your addiction, to staying up all night.... That's the addiction you have to this thread.

                Caleb
                Signature

                Canadian Expat Living in Medellin, Colombia

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                • Profile picture of the author Martin Luxton
                  Oh well, we tried.

                  This thread reminds me of the fable of the Scorpion and the Frog.

                  The Scorpion and the Frog


                  Martin
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                  • Profile picture of the author John Hocking
                    Martin,

                    What happened when the frog met the Scorpion?

                    He "croaked!"

                    This has been a very long and interesting tread.

                    I too have been disappointed with the pattern of Internet Marketing launches recently.
                    Whever happened to creating products that really help people
                    instead of selling them a dream?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Michael Mayo
                      Originally Posted by John Hocking View Post

                      Whever happened to creating products that really help people
                      instead of selling them a dream?
                      John, Is that still allowed? :rolleyes:
                      I mean didn't that die with all the other IM methods that passed away last year?

                      This IM thing is getting harder and harder to keep up with. Guess I'll need to create a spreadsheet and log them when they pass.

                      Have a Great Day!
                      Michael
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                    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                      John,
                      I too have been disappointed with the pattern of Internet Marketing launches recently. Whever happened to creating products that really help people instead of selling them a dream?
                      Good heavens. A sensible way to say it, this late in the thread? You mean, you haven't gotten so worked up over it that you've lost all sense of proportion?

                      What's wrong with you, man?!

                      [chuckle]


                      Paul
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                      .
                      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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                      • Profile picture of the author John Hocking
                        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                        John,Good heavens. A sensible way to say it, this late in the thread? You mean, you haven't gotten so worked up over it that you've lost all sense of proportion?

                        What's wrong with you, man?!

                        [chuckle]


                        Paul
                        <grin>

                        Paul,

                        Thanks for keeping things in check around here.

                        We appreciate the way you balance keeping things under control but still allowing the conversations to continue with in reason.

                        John
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                • Profile picture of the author paulie888
                  Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen View Post

                  Paul,

                  Think about any type of addiction. Such as your addiction, to staying up all night.... That's the addiction you have to this thread.

                  Caleb
                  Staying up late is not an addiction, it's my regular work schedule. This thread's certainly addictive, and I'd venture to say it's as addictive for you as your Gummy Bears are?

                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author tpw
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                    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                      Or more likely Skittles...
                      ...and a few top shelf magazines

                      Sorry Caleb.
                      Signature

                      Wibble, bark, my old man's a mushroom etc...

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                    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
                      Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                      Or more likely Skittles...
                      Skittles and also those sour chewy things I can't stand...
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                      • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
                        Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

                        Skittles and also those sour chewy things I can't stand...
                        Actually I don't like skittles very much, that was just something a customer had gifted to me.

                        I prefer the sleekness of the sour candy.. But i have a huge gummy worm, and some jolly ranchers today

                        Caleb
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                        Canadian Expat Living in Medellin, Colombia

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                        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
                          Originally Posted by Caleb Spilchen View Post

                          Actually I don't like skittles very much, that was just something a customer had gifted to me.

                          I prefer the sleekness of the sour candy.. But i have a huge gummy worm, and some jolly ranchers today

                          Caleb
                          Caleb, I certainly hope you floss your teeth regularly, as you seem to be consuming candy at an alarming rate.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Caleb Spilchen
                            Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

                            Caleb, I certainly hope you floss your teeth regularly, as you seem to be consuming candy at an alarming rate.
                            Paul,

                            I eat candy as much as you visit fancy restaurants
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                            Canadian Expat Living in Medellin, Colombia

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  • Profile picture of the author kin_lau
    Internet Marketing is not dead. There are many people making money from it and believe it will work for them.

    The main point is, those gurus are not selling their best secrets. However you can learn much more on how they sold you the product and pretty much you've got the best marketing system. It will be better then the material they try to sell.

    I believe this industry do offer something for the people. First, is the marketing skill to sell products online. Second : A dream for people who want to make a change.

    Think this way, if you purchase something and that makes you feel good, you've already consume the product. here is my example: Buying a lotto ticket never guarentee a win, but holding that ticket and having hope you may be rich is a "thinking". And the money you paid for has already given you what you're after. The feeling of hope to become rich. It is the same as all the hypes in IM industry. People are buying a hope for themselves.

    If you truely want to make money, offer value to customer. You can reverse engineer the process of those gurus and write a report for it. Then use the plan to launch what you found.
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
    Harlan,

    You are just as free to respond as everyone else. However, by choosing only to respond to posts where you think you can spin your response in your favor and choosing to ignore any direct questions which directly relate to you using questionable marketing tactics you are doing more harm than good here.

    You are not being called to the mat just for the sake of argument, but rather because you time after time choose to ignore the rules of this forum to push your own agenda and products, you self promote like crazy, and you ignore any comment that you cant put a positive spin on.

    You may very well have contributed valuable information here in the past, but your more recent posting patterns are clearly and unmistakably nothing but poor attempts at skirting the no self promotion rules of the forum.

    If you were not trying to pull the wool over everyones eyes, while insulting them in the process, you might actually never have any negative response to your posts. You have only gotten negative responses because you only come here when you have something you are promoting, you post things thare are very clearly either half truths or blatent falsehoods, and you insult the very people you are posting to.

    Also, you have stated several times that "we" are not your target market, if this is true then why waste so much time trying to promote here? If you stopped insulting everyones intellegence and actually took these responses to heart you would see that many people here agree with you in general but you have chosen the worst possible delivery you could have to get your message out.

    I have nothing against you or your new product. Not my thing as I have spent the last 4 years working with membership site solutions only. However, many of your responses in this thread were flat out insulting to every member of this forum, not just the ones involved in this discussion.

    If you had even a small clue about how this forum works you would know that blanket statements and general comments which are not backed up by hard proof are frowned upon here. You would also know that insulting anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't fly here either.

    Your insulting tone, as well as text, lead anyone who reads your posts to the conclusion that you are arrogant and self serving. This isn't the impression you want people to have of you, unless you are tired of making money. Some of the very same people you insult with your comments are your potential future customers. There are many here who make 6 figures quietly and don't toot their own horn.

    Perhaps you need to rethink your tactics a bit as it is very clear that what you are doing now isn't going to work here. If you didn't care about the WF or its community you would never have posted anything here to begin with so don't insult us further by saying you wont waste any more time here or by trying to put yourself higher than every single member here.


    Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

    So what are the rules here. Someone else can snipe at me and talk about my product but I can't respond?

    Are those the Warrior Forum rules?

    And that's why I maintain no matter what I posted, it doesn't matter because the response here is always the same.

    Heading over to the ignore list right now....
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  • Profile picture of the author ecoverartist
    It sounds like curation is just a way to take all of your memorable content and put it in one place. Or am I missing something?
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Sherice
      It sounds like curation is just a way to take all of your memorable content and put it in one place. Or am I missing something?
      There's much more to it than that. What you're talking about is a web-based archive. Also a powerful tool, but not the same thing. It can be a component of a similar approach, though.


      Paul
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      Stop by Paul's Pub - my little hangout on Facebook.

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  • Profile picture of the author blink77
    Wow, that was negative. There is plenty of opportunity in IM and increasing each day. Technology changes, new idea's, new products and places to sell them. Any business has "Used Car Salesman." You just have to do your research, test drive and use some common sense when these so called guru's spam the heck out of your inbox. Sometimes, when you weed through the trash there can be some good information.
    Signature

    I have a FREE course to teach the basics about Affiliate Marketing.

    Rod Jamieson
    http://www.affiliationtoday.com

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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Peters Benn
    I was going to ask Harlan if he had ever used Yahoo YQL to do curation. We do, and it works well...

    But, looking at the size of this thread, their probably isn't any point. Looks like Mr K is VERY good at getting people talking to him.

    Bravo. I guess.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by Steve Peters Benn View Post

      I was going to ask Harlan if he had ever used Yahoo YQL to do curation. We do, and it works well...

      But, looking at the size of this thread, their probably isn't any point. Looks like Mr K is VERY good at getting people talking to him.

      Bravo. I guess.
      Never have. Way too complex to use for me.

      Nearly impossible to teach to non tech people
      Signature

      Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
      Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
      http://overnight-copy.com
      Get Fit In Four Minuteshttp://just4minutes.com
      Learn how to build a Super Site Without SEO http://supersiteformula.com

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      • Profile picture of the author kalgutman
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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
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  • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
    I like jellybeans on toast.

    I must say, I've had a couple of curation emails hitting the inbox from this morning. This unique term seems to have really taken since this thread.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
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