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My new policy (RE: RE)...

by TimothyW
52 replies
I think sending emails with a subject line that starts "RE:" even though there has been NO 'conversation,' is deceptive.

New policy: If I'm on your email list, and you send me an email like that, I will unsubscribe. I don't care who the ^$#%#@&^(& you are.

One person who keeps doing it, I tried to email him -- but that's pretty much impossible, even though he has a special website 'dedicated' to making it 'easy' to send a message. For instance, I'm using FF, yet his code/key of letters doesn't show up (on purpose?). Bogus, bogus, bogus.

Huckserism.

-- TW
#policy
  • Profile picture of the author Ebbi
    I totally agree!!!

    I remember getting an email with RE: but not knowing what the
    heck it was about so I opened it and guess what... it was a sales
    pitch for a product this "guru" was promoting for another "guru"

    Easy scroll down and Unsubscribe...

    Ebbi
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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    Guys -- I'm just gonna come out and say this...

    There comes a time where your belly gets FULL "up to here" of all the SMARMY 'tactics,' etc. A place where you have to IGNORE what the 'split testing' MACHINE may be guiding you towards -- a place where you have to let your own PERSONAL, ethical 'True North' come out, and just plain REJECT what amounts to CON-ARTISTRY.

    At a certain point, it makes no difference how SMUG -- or how much $$ -- it makes you, you have to take off the plaid jacket, and throw it AWAY! (or the surfer coral necklace, if that's what you're using as your 'new' plaid jacket).

    I say, OUT with the "wink-wink, nudge-nudge" SMARMY hucksterism!

    -- TW
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    • Profile picture of the author rosetrees
      You've got my vote. BTW, which election is it that you are standing for?
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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Ratliff
    Here's another one that probably fits in with this "email SPAM" hall of fame

    Subject line:
    Its' (first name of list owner here) here...personal

    The word "personal" in the subject line...when the content really isn't. Come on...
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  • Profile picture of the author Debbie Songster
    I think the problem with people in our position is we all belong to too many marketing lists. We get bombarded by all the gimmicks and "lines" multiple times and it wears you out after a while.

    Personally, I read the emails that are original. I HATE canned emails. Especially the ones that say "I just got off the phone with my good friend _______ and he says sell it cheap but only to your list."
    Yea right, like you are good friends with ____ and you just got off the phone with _____ and its only going out to your list.

    Of course on the flip side of the coin, its a good learning experience - create a BS swipe file.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
      Originally Posted by Debbie Songster View Post

      create a BS swipe file.
      Do you mean a file of things to avoid?

      Or do you mean, "If only I could learn to be as smarmy as [name of smarmy guru here], then I could be a 'success' too!"
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    • Profile picture of the author Oliver Hart
      Originally Posted by Debbie Songster View Post

      I think the problem with people in our position is we all belong to too many marketing lists. We get bombarded by all the gimmicks and "lines" multiple times and it wears you out after a while.
      I disagree.

      We are not belonging to too many lists. I want to stay updated to what is going on in the marked.

      The problem is that to many list owners is treating their list as an old fashion "Safelist"

      I did not sign up to their list because I get to little commercial in my mailbox.

      I did it because the list owner promised me to keep me updated on the subject.

      I agree with the OP. "RE" mail with no previous conversation is bad, and let us all unsubscribe from those list. That way we are telling the marked what we think about it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Debbie Songster
        Originally Posted by omeyer View Post

        I disagree.

        We are not belonging to too many lists. I want to stay updated to what is going on in the marked.

        The problem is that to many list owners is treating their list as an old fashion "Safelist"

        I did not sign up to their list because I get to little commercial in my mailbox.

        I did it because the list owner promised me to keep me updated on the subject.
        I didn't mean that we are subscribed to too many lists as thats a bad thing - we are subscribed to too many lists where the repeated techniques become old and annoying.

        My reason for being on so many lists is to monitor whats going on out there. Unfortunately there are a lot of list owners who are followers and don't write their own stuff.

        I guess the moral of the story is use these techniques sparingly. If I am promoting the same product as everyone else I'm sure not going to use the canned "I got off the phone with my good friend...." message. When everyone uses that same routine you know its BS.
        I write my own stuff anyway which leads me to my complaint about all the people who used the canned messages. Sure take some of the important content out of it but, good grief write your own stuff as well.

        As for the RE:... in the subject line
        Its short for "regarding" which doesn't have to be a reply to a message you've sent (although we have been conditioned to accept it as that)

        Once again it should be used sparingly to maintain its effectiveness.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
          Originally Posted by Debbie Songster View Post

          I'm sure not going to use the canned "I got off the phone with my good friend...." message. When everyone uses that same routine you know its BS.
          Once again it should be used sparingly to maintain its effectiveness.
          Are you saying, if everyone's NOT using a 'tactic' (and it is BS), that's ok, because no one will RECOGNIZE it is BS??? Are you saying it's ok to use NEW deceptive tricks as opposed to old deceptive tricks, because they will be more 'effective?'
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          • Profile picture of the author Debbie Songster
            Originally Posted by -- TW View Post

            Are you saying, if everyone's NOT using a 'tactic' (and it is BS), that's ok, because no one will RECOGNIZE it is BS??? Are you saying it's ok to use NEW deceptive tricks as opposed to old deceptive tricks, because they will be more 'effective?'
            I guess I'm not making myself clear - I'm busy processing orders (those damm Holiday Shoppers) while playing the Warrior Forum

            Wow - are you a marketer yourself? I mean really, do you sell products of some sort?
            How do you write emails to your clients?
            Are every one one of them completely and totally honest and without BS or some type of misleading phrase or word (however small)?
            I'm not saying its ok to use deceptive tactics but I think we need to define whats deceptive and whats not before we head down that path.
            (for me RE: is not deceptive - missleading perhaps based on how we've been conditioned to respond to it when used in emails)

            For me - if I just got off the phone with someone about their product - sure I might use it but I won't use it if every Tom, Dick and Harry is using it because even if its true, it won't look like it.

            You know most of my client base is OUTSIDE the IM niche so I could use those lines and probably get away with it but those lines aren't my style.

            My original comment was saying that people in this niche (IM) both as sellers and buyers, are subjected to a lot more of these types of emails because most of us belong to multiple lists. If we belonged to just one or two lists it probably wouldn't bother us to receive it but we are getting it multiple times so it becomes annoying.

            Learn from it - if you opened the email then maybe you should use that tactic yourself (since it works)

            Of course there is the other aspect as someone else pointed out. Just because someone opens the email doesn't mean they are going to buy.
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            • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
              Originally Posted by Debbie Songster View Post

              I guess I'm not making myself clear -

              Wow - are you a marketer yourself? I mean really, do you sell products of some sort?
              How do you write emails to your clients?
              Are every one one of them completely and totally honest and without BS or some type of misleading phrase or word (however small)?
              I'm not saying its ok to use deceptive tactics but I think we need to define whats deceptive and whats not before we head down that path.
              (for me RE: is not deceptive - missleading perhaps based on how we've been conditioned to respond to it when used in emails)

              For me - if I just got off the phone with someone about their product - sure I might use it (((EVEN THOUGH IT IS BS???))) but I won't use it if every Tom, Dick and Harry is using it because even if its true, it won't look like it.

              Learn from it - if you opened the email then maybe you should use that tactic yourself (since it works)
              I rest my case, again.

              PS: Even if you use different definitions of "RE:," one thing almost certain, when the marketer presses the shift key, then the R key, then the E key then the : key to start his subject line, he is doing it with ONE purpose in mind -- hoping the reader will be TRICKED (there is NO OTHER word to use!). TRICKED INTO thinking the message is in response to a message the reader sent earlier. That is the intent to deceive -- there is no other way to describe it.

              The marketer does this because his split testing TELLS him to! He is doing what the split testing tells him to do, EVEN THOUGH it is intentionally deceptive. He has crossed the line, imo.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
                Originally Posted by -- TW View Post

                I rest my case, again.

                PS: Even if you use different definitions of "RE:," one thing almost certain, when the marketer presses the shift key, then the R key, then the E key then the : key to start his subject line, he is doing it with ONE purpose in mind -- hoping the reader will be TRICKED (there is NO OTHER word to use!). TRICKED INTO thinking the message is in response to a message the reader sent earlier. That is the intent to deceive -- there is no other way to describe it.

                The marketer does this because his split testing TELLS him to! He is doing what the split testing tells him to do, EVEN THOUGH it is intentionally deceptive. He has crossed the line, imo.
                Tricked..? A 12 year old kid gets tricked... man o' man grow up and if you don't like those emails delete them (I bet you're one of the ones who hits the SPAM button in their email because it's easier)

                Anyway, stop subscribing to so many lists and you won't have this problem. Seems to me you brought this on yourself. If you want information and have to give your email address then stop complaining, delete the message and get on with it already... the quicker you concentrate on making a few bucks means you won't be in here making stupid threads like this one!

                Amen!

                Mike Hill
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    • Profile picture of the author trafficwave
      Originally Posted by Debbie Songster View Post

      - create a BS swipe file.
      I've got one! On my mac, it's called "Trash".

      Pretty darned convenient!

      ;-)
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      • Profile picture of the author tiger325
        haha I couldnt help but laugh with the I just got off the phone with .....
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      • Profile picture of the author Max Ramocsai
        That RE: crap really annoys me as well.
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  • Profile picture of the author Debbie Songster
    No --- a file of stuff to avoid, not use, stay away from.

    Ok don't name it BS file
    Name it - "crap lines I can use to piss off my customers" file
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  • Profile picture of the author YellowDot Software
    I hate it when they use the name I put into their autoresponder when sending me mail. I've just started using silly things like MR McGURUPANTS or Dancing Mechanical Elephants.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by YellowDot Software View Post

      I hate it when they use the name I put into their autoresponder when sending me mail. I've just started using silly things like MR McGURUPANTS or Dancing Mechanical Elephants.

      Try using Dipshit sometime.
      Then call their supportand complain about them disrespecting you.

      Of course I'm kidding. But "Hey, Dipshit. Check this out" would surely get your attention. :p
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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    Here's what I do -- I enter a name that is [my first name]XX.

    The XX is THEIR INITIALS (the person whose list I am signing up to!)

    That way I'll know if they are sticking to their privacy policy -- or not.

    It's a tracking method.

    -- TW
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Ambrose
    Nice tip TW.

    I just unsubscribed from Mike Filsaimes list because I was starting to get tired of his "I sent this to you the other day but thought I would send it again just incase you didnt get it" emails.

    Oh and the last email he sent me started with RE: blah blah blah

    I respect the guy and will keep tabs on his launches, but I dont learn ANYTHING from his emails... its all sell sell sell (which is what its all about at the end of the day, but once in a while I wouldnt mind a "hey I found this.. thought you might be interested.. its free" email.

    Daniel
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
    I don't agree, and I suggest looking up what "re:" actually means.

    I think this is a pretty silly reason to use to unsubscribe from a list, rather than what is actually in the messages.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
      Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood View Post

      I don't agree, and I suggest looking up what "re:" actually means.
      It is deliberately deceptive. Period.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Lockwood
        Originally Posted by -- TW View Post

        It is deliberately deceptive. Period.
        You're wrong. Period.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomM
        Originally Posted by -- TW View Post

        It is deliberately deceptive. Period.
        Considering how many spammers use it I would have to agree.
        I think it's pretty sad when legit marketers have to resort to the same methods spammers use.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood View Post

      I don't agree, and I suggest looking up what "re:" actually means.
      True, but regardles of what "re:" actually means, that's not why people use it when mailing to their lists. They use it because they know most people will think that it's a reply to an email they sent. Until they get hip to the gig. But it doesn't bother me if they use it. I still read the ones I find appealing and skip the ones I don't.

      There's pretty much only 1 guy whose emails I'll read every time. And that's Jim Edwards. Becaues I pay $97/month for his membership site and when he sends a message, it's almost always because he just added some kick ass content to the membership area.

      All the rest get sorted about once a week. And the cursor is over the delete key to start. If your subject line and the little bit of body copy that gmail shows before opening the email don't jive with me, you're done.

      There are a couple of others that I'll show a little leniency. But for the most part, the cursor's hovering over delete to start with. But I give everyone a fair shake at convincing me to open their message. After all, I did sign up for the lists that I'm on.
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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    Yup. mm, I just unsubscribed from his list too. I TRIED to email him a warning first, but he has made emailing him an impossibility (see one of my posts, above).

    Sleazeball is as sleazeball does, I guess.

    -- TW
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  • Profile picture of the author Clark
    Originally Posted by -- TW View Post

    It is deliberately deceptive. Period.
    Or another person's brilliant marketing strategy due to massive testing to guage what works best for open rates.

    If any marketing method creates any emotional response which then creates an action from the recipient then it is successful.

    It's all marketing dude, some good, some great and some duds.

    Keep testing otherwise, you'll never know.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
      Originally Posted by Clark View Post

      Or another person's brilliant marketing strategy due to massive testing to guage what works best for open rates. Keep testing otherwise, you'll never know.
      There's a difference between what a split test shows, and what should be used. That difference is one's moral compass -- assuming it's being paid attention to... dude.
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      • Profile picture of the author Clark
        Originally Posted by -- TW View Post

        There's a difference between what a split test shows, and what should be used. That difference is one's moral compass -- assuming it's being paid attention to... dude.
        I suppose you missed the quote in my sig, dude.

        Please point me toward the Grand Poobah of Universal Morals & Ethics because apparently, I am misinformed about the "morals" of marketing.
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        • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
          Originally Posted by Clark View Post

          Please point me toward the Grand Poobah of Universal Morals & Ethics because apparently, I am misinformed about the "morals" of marketing.
          Are you saying there are no morals involved in marketing? That, if the split test shows beter results, use that method, regardless of any moral issues?

          I read the link in the sig -- I'm not sure what that has to do with this. I agree one should NOT rely on the *quality* of one's product to 'do (accomplish) the marketing.' But that doesn't mean 'anything goes' when you do the marketing, does it?
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        • Profile picture of the author YellowDot Software
          Originally Posted by Clark View Post

          Please point me toward the Grand Poobah of Universal Morals & Ethics because apparently, I am misinformed about the "morals" of marketing.
          Live to win, 'till you die, 'till the light dies in your eyes
          Live to win, take it all, just keep fighting 'till you fall
          Day by day, kickin' all the way, I'm not cavin' in
          Let another round begin, live to win
          Live to win
          Live to win
          Yeah, live, yeah, win!!


          I spose at the end of the day winning > morals hehe
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  • Profile picture of the author richfit
    You are all hilarious!

    I've gotten some of those emails before...very SNEAKY!

    I'm not subscribed to too much crap so when I get emails I normally enjoy seeing them. But that's not normally the case with most people.

    If it bothers you that much then just unsubscribe... just know that you'll never hear from them again !
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  • Profile picture of the author Clark
    Nothing to do with winning.

    Everything to do with MAKING M-O-N-E-Y which is the intent of this very forum.
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by Clark View Post

      Nothing to do with winning.

      Everything to do with MAKING M-O-N-E-Y which is the intent of this very forum.
      Just because a gimmick works, doesn't mean the cash register will ring.

      I'm not saying that it won't either.

      It depends on how many people your gimmick offends vs. the number of people it gets to open your email that otherwise wouldn't. And from there, your body copy of your email has to move them to take your desired action.
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    • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
      Originally Posted by Clark View Post

      Everything to do with MAKING M-O-N-E-Y which is the intent of this very forum.
      So, you're saying, "if a technique MAKES MONEY, use it -- no matter what the technique is," yes? That is the only criteria? All's fair in love and marketing?
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    • Profile picture of the author YellowDot Software
      Originally Posted by Clark View Post

      Nothing to do with winning.

      Everything to do with MAKING M-O-N-E-Y which is the intent of this very forum.

      To me winning = making money which is how I arrived at my motorhead analogy
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  • Profile picture of the author Clark
    Lance, sometimes the herd needs to be culled... especially the hanger's on who have never purchased anything from the list owner.

    Usually those people are the one's who get ornery about subject lines and also list owners who share their personal stories in the body copy.

    You cannot possibly be a marketer if you are afraid of offending someone... and I don't mean to offend someone intentionally either... sometimes s*it just happens.

    Funny thread building about NMOC where people said they would never buy a product with the name Crack in it yet Hansen popped on the thread to say that he wouldn't have reached the level of success with that product if he had not named it so.

    Diff'rent Strokes.... so back to my original point which is to TEST then measure results for the [sarcasm] morally unethical practice of making money [/sarcasm]
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    • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
      Originally Posted by Clark View Post

      Diff'rent Strokes.... so back to my original point which is to TEST then measure results for the [sarcasm] morally unethical practice of making money [/sarcasm]
      I rest my case.
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      • Profile picture of the author Clark
        Originally Posted by -- TW View Post

        I rest my case.
        R.I.P -- TW
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by Clark View Post

      Lance, sometimes the herd needs to be culled... especially the hanger's on who have never purchased anything from the list owner.

      Usually those people are the one's who get ornery about subject lines and also list owners who share their personal stories in the body copy.

      You cannot possibly be a marketer if you are afraid of offending someone... and I don't mean to offend someone intentionally either... sometimes s*it just happens.
      I'll agree with you there, Clark.


      Originally Posted by Clark View Post

      Diff'rent Strokes.... so back to my original point which is to TEST then measure results for the [sarcasm] morally unethical practice of making money [/sarcasm]
      LOL

      Another good point, though.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
    At the end of the day, you're not forced to join or remain on any list. What annoys you, remove.

    Simple.

    I still get a giggle at marketers complaining about being marketed to.

    And if using "Re.:" in a subject line gets you THAT riled up, maybe it's time to find a new business to be in.

    I spent over 20 years in a corporate environment where ALL the memos I wrote and received had Re: in it, which meant Regarding.

    Is it a tactic in this niche? Absolutely!

    But think about it - if you get an email from someone you have had no personal contact with, that has Re.: in the subject line, why would it be any more likely to get you to open it? You should already KNOW that there's no "response" coming your way...no?

    So why would you consider it "deceptive"? Or "immoral"? Call it stupid, delete the email and move on. Why waste any more energy than that?

    It's so wonderful not letting these little things bother me...you should try it some time
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    • Profile picture of the author Oliver Hart
      Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

      At the end of the day, you're not forced to join or remain on any list. What annoys you, remove.

      Simple.

      I still get a giggle at marketers complaining about being marketed to.

      And if using "Re.:" in a subject line gets you THAT riled up, maybe it's time to find a new business to be in.

      I spent over 20 years in a corporate environment where ALL the memos I wrote and received had Re: in it, which meant Regarding.

      Is it a tactic in this niche? Absolutely!

      But think about it - if you get an email from someone you have had no personal contact with, that has Re.: in the subject line, why would it be any more likely to get you to open it? You should already KNOW that there's no "response" coming your way...no?

      So why would you consider it "deceptive"? Or "immoral"? Call it stupid, delete the email and move on. Why waste any more energy than that?

      It's so wonderful not letting these little things bother me...you should try it some time
      Hi.

      If you think only on yourself, this is just fine.

      The way I see it is that WF is a forum where we discuss thing related to make money.

      If we all take your advice and not discuss whats good and bad marketing strategies, none of us will ever learn something, and WF will soon be dead place
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
        Originally Posted by omeyer View Post

        Hi.

        If you think only on yourself, this is just fine.

        The way I see it is that WF is a forum where we discuss thing related to make money.

        If we all take your advice and not discuss whats good and bad marketing strategies, none of us will ever learn something, and WF will soon be dead place
        I never said don't discuss it.

        I said why waste any more energy on it. This exact thread gets brought up ad nauseum.

        As well, the OP was not so much discussing this issue as complaining about it.

        Hope I was clearer there...
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt D
    I could be wrong about this, but I believe starting an email that is not a reply with "re:" is a violation of the CanSpam act. (not 100% sure).

    Does aweber allow you to send messages with "re:" in the subject. I think they have a policy against this if I'm not mistaken.
    Matt
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
      Originally Posted by Matt D View Post

      I could be wrong about this, but I believe starting an email that is not a reply with "re:" is a violation of the CanSpam act. (not 100% sure).

      Does aweber allow you to send messages with "re:" in the subject. I think they have a policy against this if I'm not mistaken.
      Matt
      Well, here's what it says:

      It prohibits deceptive subject lines. The subject line cannot mislead the recipient about the contents or subject matter of the message.
      I don't personally see how Re.: how it misleads the recipient about the subject matter in and of itself. Normally it's used like this:

      Re.: Did you see this new video?

      And again - some people read Re.: as Regarding.

      But who knows with our government...
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      • Profile picture of the author Oliver Hart
        Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio View Post

        Well, here's what it says:



        I don't personally see how Re.: how it misleads the recipient about the subject matter in and of itself. Normally it's used like this:

        Re.: Did you see this new video?

        And again - some people read Re.: as Regarding.

        But who knows with our government...
        It isn't strange that people read RE as Regarding as long as when you hit the answer button in your email account, your answer automatically start with RE in the subject line.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeAmbrosio
          Originally Posted by omeyer View Post

          It isn't strange that people read RE as Regarding as long as when you hit the answer button in your email account, your answer automatically start with RE in the subject line.
          Why is that strange?

          As was previously stated by others, we have now become conditioned to see Re. as Reply To (because of the email software/systems) even though it's not what it traditionallly means.

          And, what did this have to do with my reponse about whether it's deceptive enough for cann spam?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    Originally Posted by -- TW View Post

    I think sending emails with a subject line that starts "RE:" even though there has been NO 'conversation,' is deceptive.

    New policy: If I'm on your email list, and you send me an email like that, I will unsubscribe. I don't care who the ^$#%#@&^(& you are.

    One person who keeps doing it, I tried to email him -- but that's pretty much impossible, even though he has a special website 'dedicated' to making it 'easy' to send a message. For instance, I'm using FF, yet his code/key of letters doesn't show up (on purpose?). Bogus, bogus, bogus.

    Huckserism.

    -- TW


    hahah, you're an idiot!

    Now I agree that those emails are annoying but to come into a forum and announce it to everyone like they actually know you are on their list - come on, that's pathetic!

    I think I'll send my list an email like that just to get you and guys like you OFF my list! What a joke!!!

    Mike Hill
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  • Profile picture of the author Allegro
    re "[in] the matter of" More literally, "by the thing". From the ablative of res ("thing" or "circumstance"). Often used in e-mail replies. It is a common misconception that the "Re:" in correspondence is an abbreviation for regarding or reply; this is not the case. The use of Latin re, in the sense of "about, concerning", is English usage.


    damn these goddamn romans and their empire and their language...
    i mean, wtf, they just invented some words that are widely used, and you are unable to cope with their meaning... we should add them to the axis of evil and eradicate this roman empire and their language from the face of earth.

    i mean, i havent laughed so hard at an OP for quite a while now.
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    Nothing to see here. Move along, citizen.

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  • Profile picture of the author Vin_J
    I usually open an email based on the "From" and not the subj.

    But if it's from someone I don't know and I see "RE:" I usually think it's spam

    But maybe I've just had too much spam
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  • Profile picture of the author jazzyjeff
    TW,

    Looks like the consensus here is "sent those emails straight to the trash can." Hopefully newbies and veterans alike are listening and don't try something like this on their lists.

    Jeff
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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    Yes, Jazzy -- that's a good thing. What makes me wonder, though, is some who say there's no problem, and bending the truth is 'legit' if it helps the bottom line.
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