70 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}
70 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}

Why spinners can never beat humans?

by Michael Oksa
54 replies
Howdy Warriors!

First, in the spirit of full disclosure, I have to admit that I've only tried a spinner once or twice, and didn't care for the results.

Now, with Google finally taking action on machine spun content (at least that's the rumor, we'll still have to wait to see how it all plays out), it got me to thinking about the essential difference between spinners and humans.

A spinner can only work with the input it's given. This input can come from the person using the software, as well as preloaded information (such as lists of suggested synonyms). It will then churn away creating as many variations as you want it to.

However, where they really fall short--and why Google and people can detect them--is in their ability to change syntax and tense.

Humans shine in this area, and I also believe a good rewriter is virtually undetectable (note the use of 'virtually'). I even put this to the test a while back, and Warriors did no better than chance when guessing which articles were original, and which were human rewrites.

For this reason, I think spinners will continue to fall short of human ability for quite some time to come.

So, is that the main difference? Are there others? Or am I full of beans?

(Like I said, I am not initimately familiar with spinners, so I admit I could be way off).

All the best,
Michael
#beat #humans #spinners
  • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
    I tried spinners only once or twice, as well.

    Used out-of-the-box, I have yet to see a spinner produce anything remotely decent.

    I have seen them used properly and have good results. However, you have to really put some thought into it and it takes time to set the article up in proper spintax format.

    Then you still have to go back and proof/edit each article if you care at all that they be readable.

    To me it seemed like a lot more work than simply rewriting something myself.
    Signature
    Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
    Fast & Easy Content Creation
    ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3466477].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Gail_Curran
      English is such a highly idiomatic language that even a good automated tool can't always sound like natural English. It will always produce some phrases that just sound wrong to the native ear. Even if you can't explain why it's wrong, you know it's wrong. This is also where non-native English writers fall down, in the area of idiom.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3466517].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
        I too tried spinners a couple of times. I even promoted some better spinners at one time but once I saw the quality of the results, and how much time it took for me to fix the results, I figure it's faster to just write the original content myself.

        so I agree, spinners will never be better than humans.

        Signature
        ---------------
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3466565].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author isaacsmithjones
    The human brain is an AMAZING tool. The thing that computers lack is CREATIVITY. If a person wanted to change an article, they can make creative changes. Software can't (yet =P)!
    Signature
    Why wait for sales to earn an affiliate commission?
    Earn up to £20 per phone call as a MyCallPartners.co.uk pay-per-call affiliate!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3466496].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author BlondieWrites
    A spinner works just fine as long as you are actually sitting there reading what it's putting out, making sure the content flows and makes sense.

    Granted, this takes time. But it's a choice between taking a little time and having content make sense or not taking time and having it probably turn out bad.

    Too many assume that they can use a spinner and it will rewrite an article to make it readable. This seldom happens.

    Take a few minutes and read what's being spun and most likely you will be happy with the result.



    Cindy
    Signature
    Content Niches

    Content Niches - Niche Content, PLR Content, One Owner Content, PLR Articles, PLR Ebooks, Ebook Content, Printables, and More.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3466505].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Mikedb
    Yes a spinner can make 100% unique content.
    HOWEVER it needs the human input.

    So when you make one seed article and spin that with the right words and sentences, it can produce 100% unqiue content that can't be detected by the SE's

    Remember a tool is a tool and nothing more.
    I can pick up a hammer and tell him, build me a house...........will it?

    Regards,

    Mike
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3466538].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author thebitbotdotcom
    I have tinkered with spinners, not because I want to use them, but because I wanted to learn about how their content flavors itself being that I have an article directory on my site and I must say that after reading several of my own spun articles I have found that a properly spun article can easily fool a search engine, but they still read odd to humans.

    We all use a certain grade of syntax meaning that we all choose to say things a certain way phrasing out our thoughts with words and phrases that are statistically more common than others.

    This process is more dynamic than people give our brains credit for. Spun articles may read normal at first, but where a search engine would give it the green light, the human brain would start to get a funny feeling about it as our sub-bioalgorithmic functions began processing the terminology on deeper levels.

    It takes a little time, but your brain eventually says: "What the *(&^?"
    Signature
    Do Your Copywriting Skills Suck?

    Let Us Help You Develop Your Writing Skills!

    Submit Guest Posts With [ TheBitBot.Com ]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3466638].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author donhx
    Spinners have proven to be the curse of IM and the Internet now that such content is being downgraded. All those pages with all that fifth-rate stuff people were trying to make money off has now been relegated to Google search page # 9256 or later. Sad really, but that is where 1 cent per word or spun writing really belongs.

    I confess to tinkering with a spinner once. Frankly, I though the whole idea was stupid. Who else, in what other industry, would use such a thing? It's strictly for those who believe there really is a "lazy person's road to riches."

    IM is a business for people who have writing skills, and if you can't write or can't find the time to write, you may be in the wrong business. I don't think writing transfers to others very well. It's like a surgeon trying to outsource his scalpel skills. If a surgeon can't make an incision, all his other knowledge goes to waste. I think the same is true about IM and writing.
    Signature
    Quality content to beat the competition. Personalized Author Services
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3466854].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      but that is where 1 cent per word or spun writing really belongs.
      I really wish people wouldn't generalize and put all .01/wd writers in the same category. Yes, most of the time these will be terrible writers.

      But not always.

      I've hired some excellent writers from other forums who thought that they had to work for that rate in order to get jobs, only because that particular market was the only one they had seen.

      Price is NOT an indicator of quality, at least not 100% of the time.
      Signature
      Discover how to have fabulous, engaging content with
      Fast & Easy Content Creation
      ***Especially if you don't have enough time, money, or just plain HATE writing***
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3466913].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author donhx
        Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

        I really wish people wouldn't generalize and put all .01/wd writers in the same category. Yes, most of the time these will be terrible writers.

        But not always.

        I've hired some excellent writers from other forums who thought that they had to work for that rate in order to get jobs, only because that particular market was the only one they had seen.

        Price is NOT an indicator of quality, at least not 100% of the time.

        I always prefer to agree with you Tina, sorry I can't do it this time. After decades as a writer, I can easily generalize and put .01/word writers in the same category. After all, Google has seen fit to down-grade rankings over it. They want quality content, not the hack or spun stuff.

        The idea that there may be a "good" cheap writer just perpetuates the myth for the legions of people who want something for nothing. The only reason some IMers think cheap writers are good is because most don't seem to know good writing when they see it.

        If a writer is any good at all, he or she does not have to work for a few cents per word. Good writers get paid far more outside the IM world.

        There is far more bad writing available at .01/word than there is .10 or .25/word. My original generalization is well-founded. In the real world, price and quality go hand in hand.
        Signature
        Quality content to beat the competition. Personalized Author Services
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467122].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author NicoleBeckett
    I have never seen anything come out of a spinner that was nearly as good as what a human could do. On the contrary, I've seen downright gibberish come out of those machines!

    I've never believed that a machine could do better work than a human when it comes to tasks that require creativity (mo matter how advanced the machine may be).

    As someone who has worked for some very, very cheap news stations, I'm sure that broadcast companies would be all for paying machines instead of humans, if they could get away with it. That oughta tell you that you need actual humans to write
    Signature
    Sick of blending in with the crowd? Ready to stand ahead of the pack? The right content writing services can get you there...
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3466935].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
      If anybody expects a spinner to be able to create content as good as a human at the push of a button they are mistaken.

      However, if used correctly, a good spinner (such as The Best Spinner, which I currently use, and one or two others) can be a great tool.

      The content can be very good in fact. But you have to be willing to really spend a good amount of time making sure the spun articles read well.

      To do this you do need a decent literacy level. Otherwise it can easily produce nonsense.

      So if used properly it can be very powerful. But then we move into another related field of whether you think you suffer if you have similar content (duplicate content) scattered about the web all referencing back to your own sites.

      Personally I don't take the risk. When I want to distribute articles or press releases etc, I always spin what I have written. And I spin it well, in the sense of it still being very readable.

      Occassionally I will write an original article in spinning software and use it to help me find some better words or phrases.

      By the way, I still see stuff on the web which was written before spinners existed, that is poorly written and hence hard to read.

      My point is that whether one uses a spinner or not, the end result relies on your ability as a writer.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467034].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Paleochora
        Originally Posted by Steadyon View Post

        If anybody expects a spinner to be able to create content as good as a human at the push of a button they are mistaken.

        However, if used correctly, a good spinner (such as The Best Spinner, which I currently use, and one or two others) can be a great tool.

        The content can be very good in fact. But you have to be willing to really spend a good amount of time making sure the spun articles read well.

        To do this you do need a decent literacy level. Otherwise it can easily produce nonsense.

        So if used properly it can be very powerful. But then we move into another related field of whether you think you suffer if you have similar content (duplicate content) scattered about the web all referencing back to your own sites.

        Personally I don't take the risk. When I want to distribute articles or press releases etc, I always spin what I have written. And I spin it well, in the sense of it still being very readable.

        Occasionally I will write an original article in spinning software and use it to help me find some better words or phrases.

        By the way, I still see stuff on the web which was written before spinners existed, that is poorly written and hence hard to read.

        My point is that whether one uses a spinner or not, the end result relies on your ability as a writer.
        Thank you for a sensible viewpoint.

        You are absolutely correct and have addressed the question perfectly. Spinners are merely tools to expedite the process of re-writing. Providing you have a good quality original article as the source and providing the user can speak and write English and has a modicum of intellegence, there should be no difference between a re-write using a spinner and a re-write without using one. Except that by using the software, the writer can produce a number of re-writes far quicker.

        If you see a badly spun article, don't immediately blame the software. Blame the user, for it is they who produced it and they who failed to proof read it.
        Signature
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467583].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
    I tried using a spinner once. It seemed to me that to get the kind of results I was satisfied with took longer than just writing from scratch. Besides, all that spinning just made me dizzy.
    Signature

    Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467131].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
      Michael,

      Here's the thing. It's a question of how one views the craft of writing.

      If you believe a section of text is primarily a commodity; a vehicle for links; a means of filling space on a page or a way to pass some search engine's algorithmic test, then you might find that one of the better spinners is suitable for your requirements.

      If, however, you consider a piece of writing should be crafted with care; if you understand why the writer chose a particular word or phrase rather than one of several synonymic options and appreciate that the finished article most accurately describes the intentions of its author, you'll probably react with horror at the suggestion that words and sentences are simply interchangeable chunks of text which can be spun at the whim of some software tool.


      Frank
      Signature


      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467340].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      For this reason, I think spinners will continue to fall short of human ability for quite some time to come.
      Depends on the human.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467348].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

      I tried using a spinner once. It seemed to me that to get the kind of results I was satisfied with took longer than just writing from scratch. Besides, all that spinning just made me dizzy.
      I have tried this myself too, mainly out of curiosity just to see how it functioned. While it spit out dozens of variations very quickly, after looking at the results I felt that I'd never truly be comfortable using these spun articles without going through them one by one, and I'd imagine that being an utterly tedious and thankless process.
      Signature
      >>> Features Jason Fladlien, John S. Rhodes, Justin Brooke, Sean I. Mitchell, Reed Floren and Brad Gosse! <<<
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3470083].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author marketermatt
    thanks for that

    i will always when i can try to write my own unique content

    unique content is the key to success!
    Signature

    *****
    BRB BUSY MAKING WORDPRESS THEMES

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467347].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author marcuslim
      Here's the golden rule I go by when thinking about spinning -

      Rewrite for quality.
      Spin for quantity.

      So a good way is to first rewrite an article first, then spin the rewritten articles.
      Signature

      Marcus Lim
      Silver Bullet Publishing

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467525].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
    Banned
    There are an awful lot of threads about low-quality articles and spinners. Why do so many people care? Are you threatened by them or something?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467606].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author donhx
      Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

      There are an awful lot of threads about low-quality articles and spinners. Why do so many people care? Are you threatened by them or something?
      People always care when they get hit in the wallet. That's what's happening in the devaluation of articles by Google. Cheap, mostly inferior articles, have clogged the Internet so Google has said, "Enough" and has reduced the rankings of such articles.

      In the IM world, quality has never counted that much to many people. They didn't care who wrote an article or if it was readable, they just wanted words on a page stuffed with as many keywords as possible. Such articles had no real value, except to drive traffic to some sort of offer.

      Cheap, poor quality articles, and the articles spun from them, have really subverted the Internet. It is supposed to be a great information highway, but litterbugs obscured the road. Google has done a good thing in relegating the junk information to the outer realms of darkness, and until IM people lift their game content-wise, they will suffer financially.

      If IM people had been concerned about offering value to readers in the content they made available, much of the suffering could have been alleviated. Yet they persisted in driving prices and quality down, so that the worst material started getting high rankings. That's why Google stepped in.

      Cheap writing and article spinning have become unsustainable and have crashed. If people want good rankings in the future they will have to offer quality content, and that's not available for a few pennies a word. The paradigm changed when the Google ranking algorithm changed.
      Signature
      Quality content to beat the competition. Personalized Author Services
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467728].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

      There are an awful lot of threads about low-quality articles and spinners. Why do so many people care? Are you threatened by them or something?
      It was really meant as more of a theoretical question. Just a thought that hit me when I was reading a thread about EZA rejecting articles.

      So, while I can see how this thread may be seen as being about low-quality articles or spinners, my original post was meant to ask about what the main difference is between people and spinners.

      Seems to be some interesting thoughts so far.

      All the best,
      Michael
      Signature

      "Ich bin en fuego!"
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467760].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Jason Clay
        IBM developed the Watson AI that was able to defeat humans in Jeopardy. There are products out there for under $100 that can spin articles quite well. Imagine if one of the larger companies developed Watson level AI for spinning articles? I'm sure it's already in the works...
        Signature
        Click Here Now For All Of Your Internet Marketing Needs!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467790].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
          Originally Posted by Josh Rossdale View Post

          IBM developed the Watson AI that was able to defeat humans in Jeopardy. There are products out there for under $100 that can spin articles quite well. Imagine if one of the larger companies developed Watson level AI for spinning articles? I'm sure it's already in the works...
          LOL

          Josh, you have no idea how close I came to mentioning Watson as part of my post.

          I still think even Watson-like spinners are a long way off, and even then a human would still have to double check. Why? Because understanding a language through reading is much different than being able to write it.

          In other words, if they could get Watson to WRITE Jeopardy questions, then we all better start paying attention. Maybe at that point I would use spinners.

          All the best,
          Michael
          Signature

          "Ich bin en fuego!"
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467825].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author donhx
          Originally Posted by Josh Rossdale View Post

          IBM developed the Watson AI that was able to defeat humans in Jeopardy. There are products out there for under $100 that can spin articles quite well. Imagine if one of the larger companies developed Watson level AI for spinning articles? I'm sure it's already in the works...
          There is no point in article spinning, so it is unlikely that any company will invest in it. Article spinning is the child of the uncreative among the get-rich-quick crowd.

          Spinning does not add any new ideas to an article, nor does it add clarity. A spinner merely rearranges words, and that task is a rather vapid pursuit.

          Will an IBM Spinner create a better version of Dickens David Copperfield? Will it enhance the the meaning of the U.S. Constitution? Will it come up with better wording for the ML King, "I have a dream" speech? No. And spinners don't make Internet Marketing better either. Spun articles just clutter the Internet with derivative material, and thankfully Google is doing something about that by reducing the visibility of such content.
          Signature
          Quality content to beat the competition. Personalized Author Services
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467858].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by donhx View Post

            There is no point in article spinning, so it is unlikely that any company will invest in it. Article spinning is the child of the uncreative among the get-rich-quick crowd.

            Spinning does not add any new ideas to an article, nor does it add clarity. A spinner merely rearranges words, and that task is a rather vapid pursuit. Will an IBM Spinner create a better version of Dickens David Copperfield? Will it enhance the the U.S. Constitution? Will it come up with better wording for the King, "I have a dream speech?" No. And spinners don't make Internet Marketing better either.
            There's a number of reasons to spin. And if the spinning is uncreative, it's because of the person spinning, not the technique.

            If you take a list of 100 paragraphs of interesting "dog" info, facts and trivia, these can be "spun" in a variety of 4-8 paragraph articles, each averaging 70-80% unique from any other article generated. And by "unique", I mean unique facts and info, not simply word combinations.

            Now take the 1000 articles from the results and do some search/replace of important keywords. This gives more possible word combinations for the SEs to latch onto.

            Your examples of King's speech and David Copperfield are examples of creative writing. Spinning isn't about creative writing, it's about providing useful info and facts that will bring traffic, not creating historically acclaimed prose and poetry.

            And by using strategic search/replace for keywords, you are actually helping searchers in their quest for info and entertainment. For example, if you've ever opened the Yellow Pages looking for a "doctor", you probably saw a blurb for "see physicians".

            This is no different than using different keywords in different articles to help people find what they are looking for...So I disagree that spinning can't make IM better.
            Signature
            Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
            Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467905].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author donhx
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              Your examples of King's speech and David Copperfield are examples of creative writing. Spinning isn't about creative writing, it's about providing useful info and facts that will bring traffic, not creating historically acclaimed prose and poetry.
              No. The hallmarks of good writing of all kinds is that it informs, persuades or entertains with clarity. Many IMers have lost sight of that.

              Article spinning is about rearranging words. Writing is a creative process, article spinning is a mechanical one. Writers are sharing all kinds of ideas and expressing them in interesting ways, spinners are just recycling the same old ideas or facts by rearranging the order of words.

              The goal of a writer is to help people think, the goal of a spinner is to get page hits, and many really don't care if the content is readable or meaningful.

              I don't think what I say really makes any difference, however. Google has already said that junk information will not get decent rankings. That means creative people have the advantage over spinners.
              Signature
              Quality content to beat the competition. Personalized Author Services
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467956].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
              Originally Posted by donhx View Post

              There is no point in article spinning, so it is unlikely that any company will invest in it. Article spinning is the child of the uncreative among the get-rich-quick crowd.

              Spinning does not add any new ideas to an article, nor does it add clarity. A spinner merely rearranges words, and that task is a rather vapid pursuit.

              Will an IBM Spinner create a better version of Dickens David Copperfield? Will it enhance the the meaning of the U.S. Constitution? Will it come up with better wording for the ML King, "I have a dream" speech? No. And spinners don't make Internet Marketing better either. Spun articles just clutter the Internet with derivative material, and thankfully Google is doing something about that by reducing the visibility of such content.

              I think you have an incomplete understanding of spinning.

              A PROPERLY spun article can do everything you have said and more.

              The net result if done PROPERLY is many, many excellent variations with many different points covered. The only limit is one's imagination/creativity.

              When I say this, I know full well that there are many people who don't do it correctly and that there are thousands and probably millions of poorly spun drivel articles out there.

              But there are also lots of high quality spun articles, which aren't just some word changes, which REALLY impact on rankings in google in a much quicker manner than if it is all done manually.

              Lots of people have used biro's for decades now, but that doesn't mean everyone has hand-written a masterpiece.

              As I said earlier don't use the word "spinning" to mean all forms of spun articles. It can be a very powerful tool if used correctly.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467960].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                There'
                Your examples of King's speech and David Copperfield are examples of creative writing. Spinning isn't about creative writing, it's about providing useful info and facts that will bring traffic, not creating historically acclaimed prose and poetry.
                Originally Posted by donhx View Post

                No. The hallmarks of good writing of all kinds is that it informs, persuades or entertains with clarity. Many IMers have lost sight of that.

                Article spinning is about rearranging words. Writing is a creative process, article spinning is a mechanical one. Writers are sharing all kinds of ideas and expressing them in interesting ways, spinners are just recycling the same old ideas or facts by rearranging the order of words.

                The goal of a writer is to help people think, the goal of a spinner is to get page hits, and many really don't care if the content is readable or meaningful.

                I don't think what I say really makes any difference, however. Google has already said that junk information will not get decent rankings. That means creative people have the advantage over spinners.
                Now you're now playing word games. I clearly said "useful info".

                Some of us find "creative writing" to be a pain in the ass. Often, a list of facts is what I'm seeking. As a matter of fact, lists of info are very popular with many people.

                The goal of MY spinning is to provide useful and entertaining info AND get traffic. You can't tell my spun stuff from any other article you may find. You obviously didn't read my posts or my thread at my forum that I linked to in an earlier post...I would appreciate it if you really did, instead of making judgememts biased on what you THINK all spinning is about.

                PS. And the goal of a marketer is to write/spin well AND get hits. You are making a false argument that it's either/or. You write 15 articles with 7 paragraphs each, for 105 paragraphs of info. I'll write the same 105 paragraphs and turn them into 1000 articles.

                You have 7 ways to help and inform, I'll have 1000.

                You'll have one 7 page site, I'll have a 50 page site and lots of unique stuff to post on article directories, lenses, blogs, etc.

                And the vast majority will be 70-80% unique than the others...Again, I use "unique" to refer to actual information, not word combinations. This is an important disctinction which you seem to refuse to accept.
                Signature
                Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
                Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3468033].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author donhx
                Originally Posted by Steadyon View Post


                The net result is done PROPERLY is many, many excellent variations with many different points covered. The only limit is ones's imagination/creativity.
                The same is true of writing, so spinning is merely an artifice?

                I love it when people think think spinning is bad... except for the way THEY do it!

                As I said, I am happy to let the marketplace decide. IMers have just taken a huge hit from Google due to low quality content. Now we shall see what was learned from that experience. Will they stay with the old ways of paying people a penny a word for writing articles? Will they continue to to see if they can spin straw into gold? Or will they offer quality content and raise the return on their investments? Time will tell.
                Signature
                Quality content to beat the competition. Personalized Author Services
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3468061].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Minbani
                  Wow! what an interesting discussion this has turned out. My half-a-cent's worth? IMHO, Article spinners are as useful as fly screens on a submarine. I have tried them and given up in disgust at the nonsense they produce. It takes me much, much longer to spin an article to the readability stage than what it does to say what I wanted to say in the first place.

                  I refuse to have my name put to something that I know I can do better at.

                  Donhx, I reckon you write very well indeed :-) ~ I really appreciated the surgeon and scalpel comment...LOL...how very true.

                  After this big G hit, I think I'm finally coming to accept something that I have often thought. And fought. The internet IS about words and websites. That's the basic foundational products. Sure, we can make all the tools in the world, to make one or the other easier/faster/better/cheaper/smarter et al but we can't escape the need for words on web sites.

                  Web sites are the vehicles and words are the drivers. I will stay alive much longer if I have a driver who takes care of my web site :-)
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3468217].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Deedee11
                This a beautifully done debate. I hear the heart of a writer and the heart of a marketer speaking into this space. I have been touched as each has shared their views.

                I am a writer so I can perfectly hear Donhx's feelings. And yet as we progress in our beloved industry we are searching for ways to "get there" more simply.

                I rewrite all my own but am aware of a spinner that is said to be super. Still it takes human rewrites---up to 8 of them---before you can make the 100 or more "unique" articles.

                Thank you all for sharing in this debate. A good read!

                Success & Abundance,
                Dee
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3468176].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    I've posted a reply to this many times...The way to properly "spin" is NOT to simply spin words. Instead, you spin PARAGRAPHS, mixing and matching unique "chunks" of info.

    Then do a basic "search/replace" for some basic keywords contained in each paragraph.

    For more detail on how I do it, see my own forum thread here:
    - Spinning Content Using Tuelz
    Signature
    Discover the fastest and easiest ways to create your own valuable products.
    Tons of FREE Public Domain content you can use to make your own content, PLR, digital and POD products.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467754].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    Give me a day, i am writing an "extreme spinnable article", that is, each sentence spun 10 times, and each paragraph spun 5 times. Let's make it a mega article, it would yield 20.000 maybe 30.000 words at the end.

    Such a spun article would basically yield infinite articles, i HIGHLY doubt that google would detect this...needless to say it would be perfect readable.

    Doubt me? Its just a matter of time and LOTS of writing. My guess is you guys have NO idea what you can do with tools like TBS or Spinnerchief....
    Signature
    *** Affiliate Site Quick --> The Fastest & Easiest Way to Make Affiliate Sites!<--
    -> VISIT www.1UP-SEO.com *** <- Internet Marketing, SEO Tips, Reviews & More!! ***
    *** HIGH QUALITY CONTENT CREATION +++ Manual Article Spinning (Thread Here) ***
    Content Creation, Blogging, Articles, Converting Sales Copy, Reviews, Ebooks, Rewrites
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3467808].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    Like a computer, an article spinner is a tool, and is only as effective, as the one using it. If you got crap results, guess what?

    Thats a reflection on you.

    Chris
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3468132].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
    Banned
    These threads always do the same thing. They conflate automated spinning with human spinning, like the kind Kurt is talking about.

    The funny thing is that the people that have a problem with spinning, don't seem to have a problem with rewriting an article. What's the difference between that and "human spinning" with the assistance of a spinning program?

    It's still clogging up the internet with similar content.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3468365].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author traianturcu
    If you have a quality article to seed to the spinner, it will produce quality variations

    Spinning an article is more about spending a bit more time to prepare your article for spinning. If you provide the right synonyms, if the original article is of high quality, you can get great results for very little work!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3469907].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author theemperor
    Spinners are just a tool. They can be used badly or to produce good quality content. It's up to the user of the spinner. Isn't this a moot argument?
    Signature
    Learn to code faster, and remove the roadblocks. Get stuff done and shipped! PM me and I can help you with programming tutoring, specialising in Web and the following languages: Javascript ~ HTML ~ CSS ~ React ~ JQuery ~ Typescript ~ NodeJS ~ C#.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3470040].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author DR's Fynest
    Guys, it's actually very simple:

    1. Automated article rewriters or spinners or whatever you want to call them, are merely a tool. Nothing more... nothing less.

    2. If you give such a tool to a human "writer" who is not proficient in the language, has no knowledge of grammar or sentence structure, you'll get absolute gibberish 99.99% of the time.

    3. Give the same tool (such as TBS or SpinChimp) to an average to good writer and you can get some very good results.

    Personally, I just started using the Spin Chimp free trial a few days ago and I really like it. It's got a cheaper entry price but in the end it is actually a bit more expensive than buying TBS.

    All that aside, I can take an article and rewrite it to about 80% uniqueness by just using some synonyms and sentence rewriting (I don't do paragraph spins.) It does take a long time but that's because I'm actually THINKING and READING as I go, making sure that everything flows nicely. First time I tried it took about 2 hours for the spin, but then I was able to output several hundred articles from that.

    So for those saying that they'd just rather rewrite it manually or write a brand new article, that's not really what people are trying to achieve with spinners. They want quantity and fast!

    Me? I want quantity BUT it always takes a backseat to quality. I simply refuse to be one of the people putting out unreadable garbage out into the internet.

    So I find it a good trade-off to spend 1-2 hours manually spinning an article that will then give me a few hundred articles that read well and carry the same meaning as the original.

    Just my .02c
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3470091].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
      Originally Posted by donhx View Post

      The same is true of writing, so spinning is merely an artifice?

      I love it when people think think spinning is bad... except for the way THEY do it!

      As I said, I am happy to let the marketplace decide. IMers have just taken a huge hit from Google due to low quality content. Now we shall see what was learned from that experience. Will they stay with the old ways of paying people a penny a word for writing articles? Will they continue to to see if they can spin straw into gold? Or will they offer quality content and raise the return on their investments? Time will tell.

      You may be a writer, but you are not a reader, based on your replies.

      Please don't be so closed minded about spinners.

      You are tarring everyone with the same very broad brush.

      It is a tool and not everyone uses it the same way. There is a wide spectrum of quality, whether using a spinner or writing the original article in the first place.

      End.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3470148].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Peter Gehr
    I've found that even with the best spinners available out there that I can spend as much time fixing up the "weirdnesses" than what it would have taken me just to write it myself.

    It always comes out unnatural, clumsy and un-humanlike.

    Yes, you can tweak and mess around, and I've used them a lot, but in the long run, the end result is never as pleasing and as satisfying as writing it myself. : )
    Signature
    [FREE] You Can Discover How to Comply with Google to Make Sure You Rank Well!

    [FREE] You Can Generate Tons of Traffic Using StumbleUpon--Most People Don't Know This Stuff!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3470177].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author sal64
      Mike, I don't think it's a question of spun v human.

      As I understand it, google is clamping down on crap sites, so spamming the engines with spun content won't cut it anymore.

      Which is probably a good thing.

      Most spun spam is used for getting backlinks and increasing rankings. This is what google wants to clamp down on... link farms etc.

      Hopefully it will put a greater emphasis on creating quality content and actually building a relationship with your visitors and subscribers.

      The cream will always rise to the top.
      Signature
      Internet Marketing: 20% Internet - 80% Marketing!
      You Won't See The Light Until You Open Your Eyes.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3470185].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author niffybranco
    A bad writer will spit out garbage with or without a spinner .
    Signature
    Top notch internet marketing tutorials
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3470298].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Just wanted to get some clarification from those familiar with spinners.

    Is it possible to switch tenses, cases and sentence oreder with a spinner. In other words, loading up different tenses and cases within the same article, and having the spinner decide which ones match?

    That's a big part of what I'm talking about.

    For example, if I were to take the following sentence, I could make these variations.

    Original: Looking for a new car? If so, then you'll want to check out this new website.

    Rewrite 1: Anyone who's in the market for a new car should visit the following web page.

    Rewrite 2: Go to this site now if you are shopping for new cars.

    Rewrite 3: Shopping for new vehicles used to be a drag; that was until www.site.com made it easy.

    Can spinners do rewrites like that throughout an entire article? Even after a knowledgeable writer/proficient spinner works their magic? Could it do some of these rewrites? I ask because it gets to one of the main differences, in my opinion.

    All the best,
    Michael
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3470774].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author cashcow
      Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

      Just wanted to get some clarification from those familiar with spinners.

      Is it possible to switch tenses, cases and sentence order with a spinner. In other words, loading up different tenses and cases within the same article, and having the spinner decide which ones match?
      It's not possible to do that automatically and that is what the big problem with spun articles is.

      That's why if you are spinning articles you must spin at least by sentence and {judiciously|carefully|sparingly} replace synonyms by hand. Those one button click solutions just produce garbage, but if you spin by sentence you can produce great articles every time.

      In fact, it can actually be kind of fun to do it that way if you are the kind of person that likes to push words around on paper and look at different ways to write sentences.

      There is actually another use for spinners that I never hear anyone talk about and that is for providing useful information to your readers on different topics in a related field by using nested spinning.

      For example, lets say you had a website on gardening and you want to have a page on each type of flower.

      There are certain attributes that all flowers have such as colors, when they bloom, how long they bloom, how tall they grow, when to plant them, if they are annual, perennial or biennial ..... and so on.

      If you entered this data in a spreadsheet (The Best Spinner has one just for this type of purpose) then you could write an article around these attributes and insert the variables for each attribute at the appropriate place. Of course, you do have to be careful about the tenses of each so that the end article flows.

      Once you have the data in the spreadsheet, you can write an infinite number of articles using these variable.

      That's where I think the real value of spinners is IMHO.

      Lee
      Signature
      Gone Fishing
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3470971].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author traianturcu
    I don't think you can get a spinner to do that..

    However, in my opinion the decision to use/not to use a spinner comes down to what your goal is. If you want to make sales by slowly attracting people with your high quality content, then write an original article. If your goal is to boost the ranking of your money site, just write a damn good original article and then spin it and submit it to Web 2.0 sites.

    Just my opinion..
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3470790].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Steven Miranda
    I agree that the human brain is the most powerful computer there is, still. We can make computers do all kinds of amazing things but the human brain can express emotion. Computers can't think other than what their programmed to do. I think this is the main point.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3470806].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author nathansaputra
    you must have good quality of raw article , context and grammar
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3470826].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Anup Mahajan
    I have tinkered with article spinners few times.. While it did give me unique content, it was far from perfect. When I read the spun articles, it usually felt like it was put together hurriedly ..

    So yes while humans can create something new, computer based spinners can at the best derive from limited set of options.

    Regards
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3470866].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author ArticleMan
    For Anyone Doubting Spinners... It Works Well... I'm An Expert

    I've gone from no presence for newly created pages on my website to page 1, #1 position on Google in a few months. I do this for dozens and dozens of keywords.

    How do I do it? I do it exactly how I force a high success rate with everything else I do in life... Feed my motivation from people telling me it can't be done or it can't be effective or worth it.

    I take one (1) article with great content and then re-write it three (3) times over. I then fully spin each, separate article which takes me roughly over an hour per article. I have also created 100's of different names for the Author, well over 1,000 unique resource boxes and 100's of unique, yet relevant Titles.

    I make sure that each article is easily readable and makes sense. Sure, it can take me an entire day to set up only one (1) article for submission to 1000's of sources, pertaining to a few keyword phrases, to rank high for only one page on my site, but for those who manually write great content will Never beat my rankings.

    Of course I will never reveal which submission services I use and how I spin content so well (Oh yeah, I use my brain and I'm smart) and I'll never give my website name out (Online Store), but I can tell you, from doing this 5 days per week, I'm making decent bucks on low profit products and up to $100 from Google Adsense, per day, and they're paying me every month.

    I always tell my friends, be fearless, if you're going to do things, do them to the max or don't do them at all... thanks for reading.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3471103].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author eapen john
    Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

    Howdy Warriors!

    First, in the spirit of full disclosure, I have to admit that I've only tried a spinner once or twice, and didn't care for the results.

    Now, with Google finally taking action on machine spun content (at least that's the rumor, we'll still have to wait to see how it all plays out), it got me to thinking about the essential difference between spinners and humans.

    A spinner can only work with the input it's given. This input can come from the person using the software, as well as preloaded information (such as lists of suggested synonyms). It will then churn away creating as many variations as you want it to.

    However, where they really fall short--and why Google and people can detect them--is in their ability to change syntax and tense.

    Humans shine in this area, and I also believe a good rewriter is virtually undetectable (note the use of 'virtually'). I even put this to the test a while back, and Warriors did no better than chance when guessing which articles were original, and which were human rewrites.

    For this reason, I think spinners will continue to fall short of human ability for quite some time to come.

    So, is that the main difference? Are there others? Or am I full of beans?

    (Like I said, I am not initimately familiar with spinners, so I admit I could be way off).

    All the best,
    Michael
    It's true that Spinners can't replace humans, but article spinning is much beyond providing alternate synonyms to a word, good quality spinning is about spinning phrases, sentences and even paragraphs. All of these if properly done, with proper proof reading before submission, a spinner can churn out highly unique and rich articles( 1000 or more), which a human can never do. Spinning is more appropriate to use for submitting articles to directories with the sole intention of getting backlinks.
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3471167].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author penpal6
    it is better to hire low-cost article rewriter is instead of investing in software
    Signature
    [$10 Super Sale]
    *** Everything @ $10 *** PR9 edu/gov backlinks | 7000 Profile Backlinks | Cheapest Xrumer Blast Packages |10,000 ScrapeBox Blast | 3000 backlinks Pyramid
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3474936].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andrea Wilson
    Spinners are built by humans so they can never beat their creators! I do believe that spinners can help in rewriting articles though, but it needs proper attention and its not an automatic content producer machine you can simply set and forget.

    Andrea
    Signature
    Virility Ex|Mobile Website Design|Yeast Infection Causes|Extenze Male Enhancement
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3475168].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Brian Tayler
    Guess my last post was too 'political' okay so i'll just say it this way....


    Political spinners don't work for candidates looking to gain votes (most of the time) just like article spinners don't work well either for those looking for huge gain in releasing various versions of an article.

    What is your goal? To brand yourself? To get quality backlinks? To have people see you as an authority source? Well article spinning will not only not help you with these.. but could actually hurt you. So be careful and choose wisely.
    Signature
    .-=-.

    .-=-.
    X81MBTp
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[7322514].message }}

Trending Topics