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Vendors With Their Own Opt In Pop Up!?

by peter gibson
25 replies
OK, clickbank confuddled here. :confused: Am I being a bloody idiot here, or what?

I found an excellent product that is laser focused to one of my niches, but the landing page they have has an almost instant light box, opting in anyone for their own autoresponder sequence. I mean, wouldn't that be GIVING the vendor sales basically for free - from allowing massive opportunity for them to remove my affiliate ID? Is there any way at all for this vendor to guarantee that I will see sales after my traffic signs up to their autoresponder and list?

Just seems like an easy way to cut me outta the deal, but maybe I'm just being cranky or somethin'.

I'd love to know - as a vendor myself - if this is something that I should have been doing all along, or if the vendor I wish to promote has their head up their butts.

Has anyone any experience with this sort of thing? Should I just forget about promoting this product? It's SO niche specific for me that I know it would sell like gangbusters, which is why I'm not just nixxing the whole thing without checking in here.
#opt #pop #vendors
  • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
    This is one of those "there's people on both sides". You'll get some who like the fact that the vendor has the optin form because they know they'll get more than one chance at getting a sale.

    Others absolutely HATE it when a vendor has an optin form and think that every vendor that has one is trying to screw them.

    Any vendor that does that will eventually get caught and word will get around, but as a product owner myself, I don't see how I can knock someone for building a list they can market multiple products to.

    Isn't having a list one of the biggest building blocks for having a real business online? Or are all the "BUILD A LIST" posts and products just for people without products
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    • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
      Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post

      This is one of those "there's people on both sides". You'll get some who like the fact that the vendor has the optin form because they know they'll get more than one chance at getting a sale.

      Others absolutely HATE it when a vendor has an optin form and think that every vendor that has one is trying to screw them.

      Any vendor that does that will eventually get caught and word will get around, but as a product owner myself, I don't see how I can knock someone for building a list they can market multiple products to.

      Isn't having a list one of the biggest building blocks for having a real business online? Or are all the "BUILD A LIST" posts and products just for people without products
      Hey Bryan,

      Hear what you're saying for sure. In fact I've got 0 problem with the vendor gathering his own list from my traffic - it's almost assured he'll be doing so anyway (somewhat) from a successful sale. My wonderment - if you will - is that the offer I'm sending through is not even being seen, in fact the customer is being coaxed away from it by their use of an instant light box.

      To jump further down that hole, what if I were to use an 8 email autoresponder sequence to soft sell my own list this offer - and then send them to a page which had another soft sell of 10 or so emails. Just seems a tad "ANTI affiliate" to me.

      That's why I'm wondering if the process could be guaranteed to my own affiliates, so that they wouldn't have to create long email campaigns to sell my products. If they could just send the traffic to my own email campaign and be guaranteed the commissions remained intact my affiliates would be happy little campers for sure.

      By guaranteed I mean - is their some code or set up that can be tracked from the sign up through to the sale - something that will throw up a red light if the affiliate ID is being removed along the way? Wait a sec, that seems like a crapload of wishful thinking. Hmmm...
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike McAleer
    I don't think it should matter. Hopefully you are being credited for sales.
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    • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
      Originally Posted by FreshDomains View Post

      I don't think it should matter. Hopefully you are being credited for sales.
      Seriously? It doesn't matter that I would use my resource (traffic), send them to a vendor that has plenty of time and a whole series of events as potential reasons to "lose" my affiliate code?

      You're saying it "doesn't matter" that a vendor can basically profit completely while tanking your time and efforts, leaving your pockets empty? Damn. Don't think I'll ever look at my business that way, but thanks for the advice none the less.
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    Just set up a hoplink using your CB I.D. and use it to go to their sales page. Then opt-in to their list when the form comes up. Then click on the order button and see of your affiliate name still shows at the bottom of the CB processing page.

    By the way, if you look at the top pages in the CB e-Marketing category you will find few pages (except for the video pages which make you opt-in to get the next video) have opt-in forms directly on the sales page. Most have gone to using exit capture scripts to capture leads once they click off the page.

    Bryan Z. said,
    "...but as a product owner myself, I don't see how I can knock someone for building a list they can market multiple products to."

    If you look at IM related products by top vendors at CB you will see that many sell for about $37. 3-4 years ago they would have been selling for $77 or $97. Now most vendors offer a low priced product to lead buyers into their sales funnel and then hit them with 2, 3, 4 up-sells and one or two OTOs.

    Many of these people are actually losing money with their initial offer. Consider that they may be giving 50-70% commissions to affiliates, maybe a second tier commission to JV promoters, money to a customer support person and cash to a JV manager... there isn't much left (if anything) from the $37 product.

    The real money for the vendors comes from the upsells, OTOs and repeat marketing to the lists they create. Opting in names by the big CB vendors is part and parcel to the product launch model almost all use. If you want to play ball in the big leagues you've got to play by the ground rules the big players put down. --Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
      Originally Posted by mikemcmillan View Post

      If you want to play ball in the big leagues you've got to play by the ground rules the big players put down. --Mike
      OK Mike. I'm gonna start by saying I gots me mad respect for your contributions here at Ye Ol Warrior forum. You've steered me in the right direction a few times from your comments. Having said that, please understand that I'm someone fully aware of the "big leagues" because I've been playing in them for a bit now. OK, maybe not the big BIG leagues, but definitely on the farm team. :p

      Telling me about the way things work around clickbank is truly not necessary, but thanks for throwing it down anyway. There's plenty of folks around that could seriously benefit from what you just laid out.

      Anyways, point is that the product offer I'm describing is definitely NOT normal S.O.P. for clickbank products - at least none I've come across in my tenure.

      This is the first time I've come across a sales page/offer that has an instant optin pointing directly to an 8 email autoresponder sequence; meaning that their list building is not within the pitch itself, but at the onset of the visit. It pauses and distracts from the reason I've sent them traffic, which is to get an affiliate commission. Perhaps in niches I'm not involved with this is a normal kinda deal, but I've never seen it before and it seems awfully stinky to me.

      So I'm asking, from an affiliate point of view, why would I bother promoting something like this unless there's a guarantee that the initial commission for me is intact throughout?

      Like I mentioned to Bryan, that seems extremely "anti affiliate" to me. But, if I'm missing something and if there is a way that my own affiliates could be assured of their commissions from this kind of sales page, hell, I'd certainly be running all my offers this way. Hence the question.
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    • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
      Originally Posted by mikemcmillan View Post

      If you want to play ball in the big leagues you've got to play by the ground rules the big players put down. --Mike
      I'm not at all sure I agree with this. Playing by the same rules everyone else plays by has little chance of allowing us to stand out from the crowd.

      Personally, I've always liked changing the rules or the way the game gets played.

      Marvin

      P.S. - "Enders Game" is a sci-fi novel and a good read about changing the rules.
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  • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
    Originally Posted by ncmedia View Post

    ^ I doubt that script exists, but it's really not that hard to debunk.

    1. Contact the vendor, if you push volume you should be reaching out to them directly, they'll want to hear from you (If they don't respond or if they completely ignore you, it could be a sign of shade).
    Yep, did that as soon as I caught the offer and saw the light box. It's been some time now and I haven't heard back so I think I might be on to an offer not worth my time.

    Originally Posted by ncmedia View Post

    2. Opt-in yourself, keep a tab on what they send, check your aff ID on the bottom of payment pages when they follow up.
    That's certainly one way to keep tabs for sure, but it leaves hella room for the vendor to suddenly have my code "vanish" at some point, for any percentage of sales that happen his way thanks to me. Then again, that's somewhat true of any vendor, me included. I guess it just makes the whole "screw the affiliate" thing more pronounced when their list building happens so obviously and immediately.

    Originally Posted by ncmedia View Post

    3.(could also judge by seeing what % of sales is being done by aff's vs. internal - if there is a HUGE internal side, could also be a sign of shade - again all speculation until you dive in and check yourself).
    Totally didn't think of that.
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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    Hi Peter,
    In my post above I didn't mean to insinuate that you weren't playing in the big leagues at all. Not my intent at all. I do understand exactly what you were saying. My main point was to check and make sure your cookie doesn't get over-ridden or voided out in the process.

    I also understand that affiliates work hard to drive traffic to vendor sales pages and if the first thing visitors see is something that distracts them or drives them away... your work was in vain.

    Based on what you're saying I'd have to think hard about promoting the product, but at the end of the day I guess some testing is what's in order.

    Again, I didn't mean to sound condescending or didactic in my earlier post. --Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
      Originally Posted by mikemcmillan View Post

      Hi Peter,
      In my post above I didn't mean to insinuate that you weren't playing in the big leagues at all. Not my intent at all. I do understand exactly what you were saying. My main point was to check and make sure your cookie doesn't get over-ridden or voided out in the process.

      I also understand that affiliates work hard to drive traffic to vendor sales pages and if the first thing visitors see is something that distracts them or drives them away... your work was in vain.

      Based on what you're saying I'd have to think hard about promoting the product, but at the end of the day I guess some testing is what's in order.

      Again, I didn't mean to sound condescending or didactic in my earlier post. --Mike
      @Mike - No problems mano Didn't take what you said as condescending at all, just thought there was a need for clarity from my end to drill down what I was asking. Like I said - you've helped me a slew of times here at Ye Ol Warrior forum just from advice you've offered others. As for big leagues - haha - I'm pretty sure I've yet to really enter the "big" show anyway, but I know I'm getting ever closer lol!
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  • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
    Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

    Peter, you are looking for "guarantees". What kind of guarantee could someone make, short of making a legal contract with you?

    The only way to know for sure is to opt in yourself and monitor the emails.


    Does every email promoting the product use the main site and therefore the cookie on your computer? This should be the bare minimum.

    Does the site owner promote anything else other than the primary Clickbank product? This is pretty bad form if so because you won't get any reward for delivering the lead.

    ....

    Do they have an optional opt-in page so you don't have to send all your traffic to the opt-in? Some vendors do this.
    Heya Chris. As for the kind of "guarantee" I expect, well I didn't really expect anything past usual. It's just that since this kind of sales page tactic has been foreign to me - thought there had to be some sort of script developed (while I was sleeping) that's being utilized by this vendor to offer his affiliates assurances. The way it's set up now just seems... I dunno ... wrong(?).

    As for the amount of products the vendor promotes, this particular vendor has a slew of them on his main site but I've yet to cruise through clickbank to find out what is and what is not running there. So yeah, there's even more noise about this whole enchilada to make me step back.

    I've also asked (in the email I initially fired off) if he could send me his offer - sans light box, or if he even has that option. As of yet he hasn't returned my email at all. I'm starting to assume this is may be a vendor with a crack habit lol.

    Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

    Ideally, the vendor should use hoplinks each and every time to get around the 60 day (or however many it is) cookie limitation and to safeguard against periodic cookie deletion.
    That is not only cool - it should be a prerequisite for selling. I know that there's not too many on clickbank taking those steps, really good to hear that you are. As an occasional affiliate, I'd definitely be more inclined to promote a product that was offering me extra diligence/protection in maintaining my ID throughout the process of closing the deal.
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  • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
    @Chris, that is pure awesome. Anytime you wanna share that script I'd be happy to take it on and offer it to my own affiliates. Can't say if this guy would be interested in that or not, but if he gets back to me I'll certainly be bringing it up.

    Anyway, a script like yours would be a great trend to set for vendors, and it would certainly be reassuring to affiliates.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    1. If you are doing affiliate promotion properly then you should be sending people to your own squeeze page before they even reach the sales page and building your own list.

    2. A good product owner will give their affiliates the choice. I offer my affiliates a sales page WITH an exit pop optin form and one version of the sales page WITHOUT it. Which one they use is totally up to them. That's the way it should be.

    3. If you are building your own list then you should be looking for products that do not have any optin forms on their sales page. If you come across a product that does and you still want to promote it, write to the product owner and ask them to put up another version without the optin form. You will find a lot of times the vendors were not even aware of it being an issue.
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    • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      1. If you are doing affiliate promotion properly then you should be sending people to your own squeeze page before they even reach the sales page and building your own list.
      If I'm doing it properly? Hmmm... OK. I'm gonna shake that off and assume you didn't read through this thread entirely. That statement assumes an awful lot of ignorance on my part, which I'm not sure could be realistically gleaned, having read my questions and responses. Not trying to be argumentative, but just so you can note it for future reference bro, I'm not your average knucklehead.

      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      2. A good product owner will give their affiliates the choice. I offer my affiliates a sales page WITH an exit pop optin form and one version of the sales page WITHOUT it. Which one they use is totally up to them. That's the way it should be.
      So I'm right in assuming this should be an affiliates choice? Good to know and kinda one of my irks about the offer. Additionally, I had thought of maybe adding this (for lack of a better word) "technique" to my own products. Problem is I could never figure out how to properly "assure" my folks it wasn't completely sleazy.

      Now, after seeing this from the affiliate perspective, it just seems like I'd be placing a bunch of unnecessary hoops in front of my own sale, which really doesn't seem in keeping with the spirit of the vendor/affiliate relationship. What I will do now is offer an auto-responder sequence on my affiliate sign up pages to allow more material to choose from. I finally understand why many vendors have email campaigns in their affiliate tools.

      Originally Posted by WillR View Post

      3. If you are building your own list then you should be looking for products that do not have any optin forms on their sales page. If you come across a product that does and you still want to promote it, write to the product owner and ask them to put up another version without the optin form. You will find a lot of times the vendors were not even aware of it being an issue.
      from earlier...
      Originally Posted by peter gibson View Post

      Yep, did that (*contacted the product owner) as soon as I caught the offer and saw the light box. It's been some time now and I haven't heard back ...
      Originally Posted by peter gibson View Post

      I've also asked (in the email I initially fired off) if he could send me his offer - sans light box, or if he even has that option. As of yet he hasn't returned my email at all.
      Also, believe me, the product would not even be a second thought if the offer wasn't so fine tuned to one of my niches. His offer would be just so spot on if it were under acceptable conditions, and I could really make us both some decent cash. Like I also said before, this is the first product I've caught on clickbank where the opt in is so predominant and poorly timed. I really don't mind a vendor building their lists from traffic I send as long as they do so unobtrusively, in that their own list building doesn't get in the way of the sale MY traffic is there to get. In this vendor's case it does just that, in spades.
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      • Profile picture of the author WillR
        Originally Posted by peter gibson View Post

        If I'm doing it properly? Hmmm... OK. I'm gonna shake that off and assume you didn't read through this thread entirely. That statement assumes an awful lot of ignorance on my part, which I'm not sure could be realistically gleaned, having read my questions and responses. Not trying to be argumentative, but just so you can note it for future reference bro, I'm not your average knucklehead.
        Sorry, although that may have sounded directed at you personally it was not at all. I meant the proverbial you. I have to stop using that word - it gets me into a lot of trouble around these neck of the woods.
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        • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
          Originally Posted by WillR View Post

          Sorry, although that may have sounded directed at you personally it was not at all. I meant the proverbial you. I have to stop using that word - it gets me into a lot of trouble around these neck of the woods.
          No worries bro Gets hard sometimes at Warrior from all the thread skimmers who never bother to read the thread before posting. Just thought that might be the case. Good to know it wasn't.
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  • Profile picture of the author NateRivers
    I think the advice to send traffic straight to the clickbank checkout form is great, assuming you can do the selling yourself.

    The advice to sign up through the autoresponder yourself and look at the bottom of the order form is also a surefire way of knowing...

    It is kind of a dilemma because if your cookie stays with the visitor and the vendor's autoresponder does a good job of selling the prospect, then everything's great obviously...

    On the other hand, Clickbank doesn't give any information on their site about how long their cookie lasts, so you never really know I guess.

    I'm putting together an opt in that will be part of the 'buy now' button on my sales page, and then an autoresponder will send them a discount link if they haven't bought within 24 hours.

    I've tested it to see if clicking through the discount emails still gives credit to the affiliate, and it does.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by NateRivers View Post

      I think the advice to send traffic straight to the clickbank checkout form is great, assuming you can do the selling yourself.
      Please excuse a strongly dissenting voice, but I think it's dreadful. Doing that doesn't set an affiliate cookie on your prospective customers' computers, Nate. It typically loses a huge proportion of the sales. And (for understandable reasons) you have to have the vendor's express permission to do it, anyway.

      Originally Posted by NateRivers View Post

      The advice to sign up through the autoresponder yourself and look at the bottom of the order form is also a surefire way of knowing...
      Again, please excuse a strongly dissenting voice, but it's very, very far indeed from "a sure way of knowing" any such thing.

      It looks that way, and it sounds logical (well - kind of) but it isn't actually true.

      Contrary to superficial appearances (which "can be deceptive", as the saying goes), doing that doesn't actually tell you what you need to know, to learn what you're trying to find out. For all the many reasons explained at such length and in such detail in this thread.

      Originally Posted by NateRivers View Post

      On the other hand, Clickbank doesn't give any information on their site about how long their cookie lasts, so you never really know I guess.
      Yet again, please excuse such a strongly dissenting voice, but this is simply mistaken - it lasts 60 days. This is openly explained on Clickbank's site and has been for many years.

      There's so much misunderstanding and misinformation about this subject ...
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      • Profile picture of the author NateRivers
        Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

        Please excuse a strongly dissenting voice, but I think it's dreadful. Doing that doesn't set an affiliate cookie on your prospective customers' computers, Nate. It typically loses a huge proportion of the sales. And (for understandable reasons) you have to have the vendor's express permission to do it, anyway.



        Again, please excuse a strongly dissenting voice, but it's very, very far indeed from "a sure way of knowing" any such thing.

        It looks that way, and it sounds logical (well - kind of) but it isn't actually true.

        Contrary to superficial appearances (which "can be deceptive", as the saying goes), doing that doesn't actually tell you what you need to know, to learn what you're trying to find out. For all the many reasons explained at such length and in such detail in this thread.



        Yet again, please excuse such a strongly dissenting voice, but this is simply mistaken - it lasts 60 days. This is openly explained on Clickbank's site and has been for many years.

        There's so much misunderstanding and misinformation about this subject ...
        ...I stand corrected.
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    • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
      Originally Posted by NateRivers View Post

      I think the advice to send traffic straight to the clickbank checkout form is great, assuming you can do the selling yourself.
      I know exactly how to do it, and there are two problems with doing that.

      1. It's a violation of Clickbank's TOS.

      2. It may also be illegal (check laws in your locality to be sure), and you could end up with fines and jailtime.

      I understand your problem with me following up on the vistors, but please understand mine too. I do followup emails because it increases conversions, not to steal sales from you.

      Beyond that, clickbank cookies last for 60 days...and there is no way for me to make it last any longer than that without doing stuff that violates clickbank's tos.

      How about we strike a compromise that keeps us both happy instead? I'm all for a win win situation...try me.
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  • Profile picture of the author jamesrich1
    Some of you are missing a valid point the thread owner has expressed. Let's picture this scenario. You visit the salespage and put in the email and do not buy right then.

    Guess what the vendor then starts email marketing to take 100% with a proven sequence and you compete against them. Yes its understandable, but many vendors that understand the affiliates position make it a exit pop up script to avoid blatantly disrupting the smooth sales funnel.

    Some vendors once the person puts in the email it will take you to a thank you page away from the sales page taking you into the 100% take all model from the vendor. Solution get to a product owners position as soon as you can, and recruit affiliates.
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  • Profile picture of the author peter gibson
    As an update, the vendor finally got in touch and seems very cool. I'm thinking a few of you cats were right, he just didn't realize how much this would slight some affiliates. We'll see if he actually loses the opt in, but I'm thinking he'll be nixxing it for all of his affiliates judging by his email to me.

    Vendors, let this be a lesson (as it certainly was for me) our folks are sending us traffic to make a sale, not populate our lead lists! It only causes havoc to get in the way of the sale.

    Get your leads after the credit card gets pulled out and used, or lose the respect of your own salesmen. Every time you piggyback a lead the terrorists win. Just sayin'.

    </rant>
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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    Originally Posted by peter gibson View Post

    OK, clickbank confuddled here. :confused: Am I being a bloody idiot here, or what?

    I found an excellent product that is laser focused to one of my niches, but the landing page they have has an almost instant light box, opting in anyone for their own autoresponder sequence. I mean, wouldn't that be GIVING the vendor sales basically for free - from allowing massive opportunity for them to remove my affiliate ID? Is there any way at all for this vendor to guarantee that I will see sales after my traffic signs up to their autoresponder and list?

    Just seems like an easy way to cut me outta the deal, but maybe I'm just being cranky or somethin'.

    I'd love to know - as a vendor myself - if this is something that I should have been doing all along, or if the vendor I wish to promote has their head up their butts.

    Has anyone any experience with this sort of thing? Should I just forget about promoting this product? It's SO niche specific for me that I know it would sell like gangbusters, which is why I'm not just nixxing the whole thing without checking in here.
    Could be.

    The only way to really tell for sure is to sign up to the list and see what they are doing.

    Not everyone that puts up a popup does that....just the crooks and criminals. I for one would never do that...but you wouldn't know unless you checked it out personally.
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