WARNING: The FTC's Operation Empty Promises May Visit The Warriors Forum!

160 replies
Hey Warriors,

Everyone may want to read the following...

Two weeks ago the Federal Trade Commission, the US Justice
Department, the US Postal Inspection Service and several State
and Local law enforcement agencies announced the results of a
full year investigation into "online success" gurus and companies.

They called it "Operation Empty Promises". You can
read about it on the FTC site here:

FTC Steps Up Efforts Against Scams That Target Financially-Strapped Consumers

The result?

Dozens and dozens of these "online success" web sites shut down.
Assets frozen, companies taken over by law enforcement, and
charges filed against them by several government agencies.

Companies such as The Shipper LLC and Fortune Learning LLC,
web sites such as WholesaleMatch.com and Brent Austin's
Automated Wealth System are JUST A FEW of those mentioned
in the FTC action.

Here are just some of the things alleged in the FTC complaints:

1. "misrepresented their program's earning potential,
misrepresented the goods and services they would provide"

2. "promised consumers they could make thousands of dollars
a week working just 5 to 10 hours"

3. " 'coaches' lacked the promised knowledge and experience"

4. "website-building software programs did not work properly"

5. "lawyers and accountants the defendants said would provide
assistance were nonexistent"

THERE'S A LOT MORE. The fallout from this will be going on
for a very long time. So-called "online gurus" who have
constantly appeared in your email inbox will disappear.
Programs you may have already bought into will go away with
little or no explanation.

So, Warriors - the FTC would have a ball if they came into the forum
to enforce Operation Empty Promises.

If your not being 100% honest with or about your business product,
software, or you're pumping up income claims, now would be a good
time to clean up your act.

Some of the offers you see in this forum would keep the FTC busy for
a year or more.

Thanks,

Robert
#efforts #empty #forum #ftc #operation #promises #steps #visit #warning #warriors
  • Profile picture of the author lotsofsnow
    Great post!

    You are absolutely correct. There are a lot warriors that offer very good advice and their products really deliver.

    On the other hand in the WSO section you will find your share of "hot air vendors" that better get their nose clean.
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    • Profile picture of the author Devid Farah
      So...to avoid all that it's better to be HONEST.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike McAleer
        Originally Posted by Devid Farah View Post

        So...to avoid all that it's better to be HONEST.
        I agree. There are some people who don't make any money online except for their WSO's and info products. They have no proof to back up any real earnings that they claim.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rich Struck
      I hope they crack down big time.
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      • Profile picture of the author James Clark
        Look, all any Marketer can do is offer you advice based on his or her experience. If there are some people during something else that should be dealt with accordingly.
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        • Profile picture of the author robert key
          It just boils down to the FTC being sick of these so-called
          gurus and anybody for that matter with using "income
          claims".

          Income claims are nothing more than a tactic to prey upon
          people's emotional hot buttons to lure them in to purchase
          a product or service, and it works... especially in this volatile
          economy with so many people out of work and struggling.

          Even though some of the claims such as $180k in 29 days may
          be within reach for some, it's not for the average person &
          the average person that's trying their hand at online marketing
          after getting a pink slip is "desperate" to make money as fast
          as possible...

          Just my 2 cents...

          R.
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          • Profile picture of the author mytoy78
            Originally Posted by keyz View Post

            It just boils down to the FTC being sick of these so-called
            gurus and anybody for that matter with using "income
            claims".

            Income claims are nothing more than a tactic to prey upon
            people's emotional hot buttons to lure them in to purchase
            a product or service, and it works... especially in this volatile
            economy with so many people out of work and struggling.

            Even though some of the claims such as $180k in 29 days may
            be within reach for some, it's not for the average person &
            the average person that's trying their hand at online marketing
            after getting a pink slip is "desperate" to make money as fast
            as possible...

            Just my 2 cents...

            R.
            I agree, I have had my hand bitten several times because I've been too despeerate to use my own common sense!

            I'm now being really carefull as money is soooooooooooooooo tight, things will of course improve, but I hope they take down a few of these charlatans in the process
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      • Profile picture of the author Mollysue
        I'm glad this is happening. Me and my hubby nearly got taken for big $$$ last year with the telemarketing "how much have you got on your credit card" scam. Fortunately I was able to get a full chargeback by my CC company but I heard that there were lots of others who never got their money back.

        Organisations like this should be closed down IMO and forced to refund their ill-gotten gains

        Just going back to the push-button offers that are abundant at the moment, I got an email tonight from someone who I considered to be a well-respected "guru" about yet another system allegedly making a stripper 000's of $$$. I wrote back to him that I'd had enough and unsubscribed from his list pronto. Maybe if enough of us did this and showed them that we're not complete suckers they might think twice before they sign up for the latest JV/Clickbank promo!
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        • Profile picture of the author Bozigian
          What if your just doing affiliate marketing.
          Promoting others products? will i have to worry?
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          • Profile picture of the author Rich Struck
            Originally Posted by Bozigian View Post

            What if your just doing affiliate marketing.
            Promoting others products? will i have to worry?
            You might want to research what happens when they take down illegal online pharmacies. They often take affiliates with them, or at least the biggest ones.
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            • Profile picture of the author robert key
              @ Alan,

              Yes, you're right about ClickBank - they WOULD have a field day in
              that marketplace! Lol.

              R.
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        • Profile picture of the author jan roos
          Originally Posted by Mollysue View Post

          I'm glad this is happening. Me and my hubby nearly got taken for big $$$ last year with the telemarketing "how much have you got on your credit card" scam. Fortunately I was able to get a full chargeback by my CC company but I heard that there were lots of others who never got their money back.

          Organisations like this should be closed down IMO and forced to refund their ill-gotten gains

          Just going back to the push-button offers that are abundant at the moment, I got an email tonight from someone who I considered to be a well-respected "guru" about yet another system allegedly making a stripper 000's of $$$. I wrote back to him that I'd had enough and unsubscribed from his list pronto. Maybe if enough of us did this and showed them that we're not complete suckers they might think twice before they sign up for the latest JV/Clickbank promo!
          I also went through that B.S and finally got my 3K back. Actually that company is mentioned in the OP's post which is good.

          Cheers
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      • Profile picture of the author goindeep
        Originally Posted by Rich Struck View Post

        I hope they crack down big time.

        Totally dude. Punish them. We need to rid the net of all the cowboys.
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        • Profile picture of the author tpw
          Originally Posted by Andrei Rotariu View Post

          We need to rid the net of all the cowboys.


          Being from Oklahoma, I know that not all cowboys are bad people.
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          • Profile picture of the author goindeep
            Originally Posted by tpw View Post



            Being from Oklahoma, I know that not all cowboys are bad people.
            Cowboys like to drink and fight in Australia
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            • Profile picture of the author tpw
              Originally Posted by Andrei Rotariu View Post

              Cowboys like to drink and fight in Australia

              Some of them like to drink and fight here too...

              Some are just good ole' country boys...

              And others are the reason the sheep run scared...
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              Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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              • Profile picture of the author paulie888
                Originally Posted by tpw View Post

                Some of them like to drink and fight here too...

                Some are just good ole' country boys...

                And others are the reason the sheep run scared...
                Bill, let's not forget the cows as well, cow-tipping is notoriously popular around here.
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            • Profile picture of the author pappyy3
              Originally Posted by Andrei Rotariu View Post

              Cowboys like to drink and fight in Australia
              I think the term you're referring to is Bogans??
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  • Profile picture of the author Jimspeed
    Wow- this is an interesting read. It appears most are targeted towards "Mass Marketers" those fake news articles that are to make $$$$$
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  • Profile picture of the author noble
    " 'coaches' lacked the promised knowledge and experience"

    That one sounds rather vague to seize assets and prosecute over IMO.
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    • Profile picture of the author J Bold
      Originally Posted by noble View Post

      " 'coaches' lacked the promised knowledge and experience"

      That one sounds rather vague to seize assets and prosecute over IMO.
      I agree but I think it's just a statement the starter of this thread picked out rather than an official charge.
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    • Profile picture of the author garben2011
      Originally Posted by noble View Post

      " 'coaches' lacked the promised knowledge and experience"

      That one sounds rather vague to seize assets and prosecute over IMO.
      They actually state... the promised products and services were worthless and “expert” coaches lacked the promised knowledge and experience.

      It's not really vague in my opinion. I might be wrong, I am no lawyer, but it seems to me that if someone is pitching themselves as an expert and saying hey look I have been where you are now but I overcame it and I know how to show you how to do it too... but they really do not know how to (1) really do what they are saying they did to earn money or (2) how to effectively show someone else to be able to do the same thing... then they are misrepresenting themselves in their claims.

      Outside of the IM world these things are pretty well-known. I think this is why the FTC sees this industry as one that is running out of control. I mean the claims made on a daily (hourly?) basis are amazing when you really think about it. I realize a lot of people look at it like well surely people should have enough sense to not fall for such claims but that does not change the fact that if these guys and gals were doing this in any other industry / offline they'd be buried fast. For some odd reason it seems like on the Internet people think anything goes. So what if people embellish and exaggerate and misrepresent themselves or their products. I mean we have seen it so much I think we are almost blind to the fact that what they are doing is not only simply wrong it is most likely illegal.
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  • Profile picture of the author CyberSorcerer
    I am not worried one bit. I stand behind my coaching program, and best thing of all my students stand behind me too.

    I love this actually because it cuts down on my coaching competition.
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    • Profile picture of the author nmh
      GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Prime example is the posting I posted yesterday on WF about an instance of trying to mislead. What's wrong with honest advertising. If done right you come out better on the top b/c people know what to expect and trust that what they purchase from you is EXACTLY what they will get. Now that is WINNING!
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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      They would have a field day in the ClickBank marketplace first. Like shooting fish in the barrel for them.
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      • Profile picture of the author paulie888
        Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

        They would have a field day in the ClickBank marketplace first. Like shooting fish in the barrel for them.
        I couldn't agree more, Alan. Clickbank would certainly be a high-profile target that would make people sit up and take notice, being the #1 marketplace for digital products. There's an almost dizzying array of "pushbutton make money overnight" type products there that have been released recently and are being churned out at an alarming rate, and they'd be sitting ducks if the FTC decided to go after them.

        As you've mentioned above, it's probably Clickbank's generous no questions asked refund policy that keeps them out of legal trouble. Without it, they'd almost certainly have been charged with something by now.
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      • Profile picture of the author notrichyet
        Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

        They would have a field day in the ClickBank marketplace first. Like shooting fish in the barrel for them.
        No kidding, and not just in the make money online niche, they could find many products that supposedly cure health issues which are completely bogus. They'll have a field day in there.....
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      • Profile picture of the author spearce000
        Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

        They would have a field day in the ClickBank marketplace first. Like shooting fish in the barrel for them.
        That would explain the new ClickBank contract and why they make you acknowledge and agree to it every time you log on.
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        • Profile picture of the author Barry Unruh
          Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

          approvers should err on the side of caution and refuse to approve those WSOs that are on the margins of believability.
          Who's level of believability? Paul's believability level may be much higher than mine, and mine may be much higher than the newbie who just joined the Warrior Forum. Who's level do you wish to use?

          Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

          I know what a pop corn thread is, but by posting that to a thread that you expect will be become pop corny is simply not helping matters or contributing to the conversation. If anything, you could make matters worse by posting such things in a thread like this. We don't need things to get any more heated that needed, and believe me I'm not the type of guy who likes heated conversations/debates.
          Ah, personally I thought it was a thread lightening moment. I appreciated the good chuckle amidst the great debate.

          Originally Posted by kurttasche View Post

          To get testimonials, give a copy of your product to a few people and get their honest review before you release it to the public. But don't just give them out to anyone. I would pick atleast 1 expert in your niche, 1 with mediocre experience, and 1 newbie.
          This makes a really bad assumption. Many people will only give a good review in the hopes they will get one in return in the future. Getting a serious on the mark review is often harder than you expect. I agree you should try, but do not believe just because everyone says your product is GREAT, that it is. You should already know in the pit of your stomach that it is.

          Barry

          P.S. I personally think the mods do a great job. They do a great balancing act. WSO's should be policed by the community with problems reported to the mods. I have yet to buy a WSO which I did not find highly valuable, but of course I always read the reviews first, read posts by the creator, and then make my final decision after evaluating if it fits into my current needs and plans or not.
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  • Profile picture of the author marketermatt
    I hope they catch every one who is doing "fake" WSO's its just merely wrong to rip of a fellow member of the team.
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  • Profile picture of the author PVReymond
    Originally Posted by keyz View Post

    Hey Warriors,

    Everyone may want to read the following...

    Two weeks ago the Federal Trade Commission, the US Justice
    Department, the US Postal Inspection Service and several State
    and Local law enforcement agencies announced the results of a
    full year investigation into "online success" gurus and companies.

    They called it "Operation Empty Promises". You can
    read about it on the FTC site here:

    FTC Steps Up Efforts Against Scams That Target Financially-Strapped Consumers

    The result?

    Dozens and dozens of these "online success" web sites shut down.
    Assets frozen, companies taken over by law enforcement, and
    charges filed against them by several government agencies.

    Companies such as The Shipper LLC and Fortune Learning LLC,
    web sites such as WholesaleMatch.com and Brent Austin's
    Automated Wealth System are JUST A FEW of those mentioned
    in the FTC action.

    Here are just some of the things alleged in the FTC complaints:

    1. "misrepresented their program's earning potential,
    misrepresented the goods and services they would provide"

    2. "promised consumers they could make thousands of dollars
    a week working just 5 to 10 hours"

    3. " 'coaches' lacked the promised knowledge and experience"

    4. "website-building software programs did not work properly"

    5. "lawyers and accountants the defendants said would provide
    assistance were nonexistent"

    THERE'S A LOT MORE. The fallout from this will be going on
    for a very long time. So-called "online gurus" who have
    constantly appeared in your email inbox will disappear.
    Programs you may have already bought into will go away with
    little or no explanation.

    So, Warriors - the FTC would have a ball if they came into the forum
    to enforce Operation Empty Promises.

    If your not being 100% honest with or about your business product,
    software, or you're pumping up income claims, now would be a good
    time to clean up your act.

    Some of the offers you see in this forum would keep the FTC busy for
    a year or more.

    Thanks,

    Robert
    I couldn't agree more...

    If they come here I think they will have work for 2 years...
    What if they see all those WSO that guarantee X amount of
    money in a specific period of time?

    All those people that don't deliver on their promise would
    get into big troubles.

    Be honest! In order to make money online you don't need to
    trick people. If you do it at the end of the day you lose
    your reputation and end up out of business.


    Thanks,
    ^PV Reymond
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  • Profile picture of the author ultradeal
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author noble
      Originally Posted by ultradeal View Post

      I think its a good thing, there is a lot of scamming going on at the moment. all this amazing software that is supposed to get u thousands of visitors a day and when u buy it it does nothing, all kinds of money back guarantees that u never get. this should stop.
      its ok to sell software but u cant promise it does al this great stuff and when u buy it its just some piece of crap...that crashes as soon as you click something.
      I have to point something out here. I don't have any software I sell but there is software I use and I feel like I need to say this.

      Programs are just a tool. They automate something so you can do more of it or do it automatically.

      If you do not already have a game plan and experience success with something on a small scale there is no reason to scale it up or automate it. A lot of programs work great but they are just tools, you still need your game plan in order to realize the results.

      I see a lot of people who are new to SEO buying software and then thinking its a scam just because they don't really know how to use it properly and how to combine it with everything else they need to do.
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  • Profile picture of the author oda
    Did anyone else notice a common like between all these people and companies?

    They all refused to refund!

    We put refund policies in place to make sure our clients can evaluate the products, but by NOT refunding when requested they end up in a report like that one.

    Lesson, Stick your refund policy, if the product is good it won't matter that you need to refund a small percentage.

    That and do not LIE, Hopefully this is the end of the ridiculous screen shot showing paypal and CB accounts with Hundreds of thousands of dollars in them. Im an Idiot and I can make one of those.

    Take care and be careful

    ODA
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    • Profile picture of the author COPEAC Stephen
      Originally Posted by oda View Post

      Did anyone else notice a common like between all these people and companies?

      They all refused to refund!

      We put refund policies in place to make sure our clients can evaluate the products, but by NOT refunding when requested they end up in a report like that one.

      Lesson, Stick your refund policy, if the product is good it won't matter that you need to refund a small percentage.

      That and do not LIE, Hopefully this is the end of the ridiculous screen shot showing paypal and CB accounts with Hundreds of thousands of dollars in them. Im an Idiot and I can make one of those.

      Take care and be careful

      ODA

      Couldn't agree more about the refund policy and adhering to it as well as hiring ample staff do deal with all the customer service issues that can come into play...I've seen 10-20 different continuity clients come and go in the past 6 months all because their charge backs and not providing full refunds if consumers weren't pleased with the product...

      Chargeback %'s for companies that require credit card processing are the key, dont lie, refund if someone requests one, and make sure the product or service you're offering the consumer is accurate and provides value to the consumer...seems simple but if there are shortcuts that can be taken to make a quick buck, there are people out there that will do so.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jordan Kovats
    At least a forum keeps people honest by having dialogue and feedback. I'd be surprised if they do a thing. They can't keep infomercial 'guru's' off the TV, so how would it improve online?
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by keyz View Post

    If your not being 100% honest with or about your business product,
    software, or you're pumping up income claims, now would be a good
    time to clean up your act.
    It would also be a good time not to give those people advance warning about upcoming raids, because if they're surprised by it, they're more likely to be caught red-handed in the midst of their normal activities.

    Besides, I'm sure the FTC doesn't give a crap about us here anyway. We could probably just go right on about our business, no matter how illicit or sleazy it might be, and they'd never notice a damn thing.
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  • Profile picture of the author zac2
    Banned
    If enough people complained they'd be round here and probably shut the forum down. They have the power to do that.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by zac2 View Post

      If enough people complained they'd be round here and probably shut the forum down. They have the power to do that.

      I doubt that they would shut the forum, since it is a small percentage of the advertisers doing the blatant dishonest stuff.

      Some of the people targeted in Operation Empty Promises were running ads on the major news network websites. Those websites seem to have survived the smack-down that their advertisers got.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rory Singh
    Great News!!

    -There is a ton of garbage on The Internet today. This operation should eliminate most of them I hope.

    -Targeting desperate out of work employees is shameless, not just for the companies but for the people who actually buy into these opportunities.

    -These scams shouldn't have been in existence for so long in the first place. Also, people have got to start using their God given commonsense and gut before paying a fee to a company for a job.

    Jobs should be free. If it is not free, then it isn't a job.

    Can you imagine people believing that for just $49.95 they could be promised the 'ideal' job that pays up to $10,000 each and every month?

    Wow

    Great work FTC! Keep it up!!
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  • Profile picture of the author inter123
    How do they plan to deal with people overseas?
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  • Profile picture of the author alliance
    We should police ourselves as an industry. Not sure if an IM Trade Association exists where members could abide by honest marketing guidelines and business practices. The internet is one of bright spots in our economy and we don't need government looking over our shoulder not to mention the way they are destroying other industries.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by alliance View Post

      We should police ourselves as an industry. Not sure if an IM Trade Association exists where members could abide by honest marketing guidelines and business practices. The internet is one of bright spots in our economy and we don't need government looking over our shoulder not to mention the way they are destroying other industries.

      Only honest people would belong to an IM Trade Association, and they are not the people causing the mischief...
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  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
    Always good to have reminders like this, but the Warrior Forum is a great place and functions like the FTC surely wants.

    On the Warrior Forum everyone who buys a WSO has the opportunity to comment about the product or service. Good or bad.

    On the Warrior Forum everyone has an opportunity to ask questions before buying a WSO. Every seller's credibility can be evaluated. Their screen name, length on the forum, number posts, blog, any signature links, actual contributions and posts, etc. - are all an open book for anyone to research.

    The Warrior Forum is a social community that can reward, and punish, those who deserve that treatment.

    For instance, the recent problem of the faked screenshot resulted in a quick ban for the seller.

    The fees required to even post a WSO act as a legitimacy threshold other sites do not have.

    You do not find this social approval or disapproval in other marketplaces. Certainly not ClickBank. Certainly not in newspapers or magazines where all you have is a seller's controlled ad with nothing more.

    It is on the Warrior Forum where people come to ask questions about such ads and whether a product is really useful or not.

    Everyone on the Warrior Forum has an opportunity to publicly ask questions before buying a product. Since this is a forum it is not always just a 1 on 1 conversation with the seller - but everyone can (and often do) join in to answer questions, raise issues, etc.

    Just imagine how busy the FTC would be if the Warrior Forum did not exist as a social forum to help weed out problem sellers and products.

    If you see a product being sold elsewhere, but not on the Warrior Forum, that itself should raise a question.
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  • Profile picture of the author zac2
    Banned
    Hey kindsvater if I had enough posts I could PM you a few Warriors selling stuff on the WSO forum with faked screenshots that haven't been banned yet.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by zac2 View Post

      Hey kindsvater if I had enough posts I could PM you a few Warriors selling stuff on the WSO forum with faked screenshots that haven't been banned yet.

      That needs to be pointed out to the moderators of the forum and is easy to do.

      When you find a WSO with a fake screen shot, hit the button that looks like this:

      The moderators will promptly investigate and if the screen shot is found to be faked, the WSO is usually disabled and the seller banned.

      Just be careful to be absolutely certain it is a fake screen shot, because people who falsely accuse others are often dealt with the same way as people who fake screen shots are dealt with.


      p.s. Also take time to read this forum sticky: http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...moderator.html
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      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Originally Posted by tpw View Post

        Just be careful to be absolutely certain it is a fake screen shot, because people who falsely accuse others are often dealt with the same way as people who fake screen shots are dealt with.
        People who make public allegations of fraud and can't back it up tend to get lengthy bans. People who point out possible issues via PM get taken just as seriously, but the fact that they showed some decent restraint keeps them almost completely safe from banning for it.

        Banning people who publicly make unsupportable allegations is done to discourage folks from damaging innocent sellers' reputations with lies or careless misunderstandings. That knife cuts both ways.


        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Mike,
        The problem here is the moderators are allowing them to become a WSO in the first place. If the mods took more time to look each WSO thread before approving and using stricter guidelines for accepting them, we would see a lot less of these WSO with fake claims and the like.
        Ya know, for someone who hasn't a clue how the system works, you've got an awful lot of opinions on how the system works.

        The majority of the moderators have nothing to do with approving WSOs. I am not among the people who approve them. So, the next time you freaking rant in my face or any other moderator's face about it, or just spout off randomly, via PM or publicly, I'm going to drop the nice guy and tell you just where you can put your "opinions."

        Are we clear, Mike?

        Now, back to the world of the civil...

        A LOT of the stuff people point to as evidence that a WSO isn't right doesn't come to light until after the members have a chance to see the thing. Like a recent PLR offering that was non-original PLR. Or the one where someone claimed a seller was pirating another seller's product. (No evidence to support that particular claim was forthcoming.)

        Another often unsupported claim: The seller took someone else's idea and rewrote it, offering the same technique. Yes, it's sleazy if it's true. We will look at both to see if there are copyright issues, and boot the infringer if it's demonstrated. I've done it myself quite a number of times.

        But - and hear this - we cannot give anyone an exclusive on an idea or technique. We have no way of knowing if someone actually copied the technique, no matter how "obvious" it might seem. And it's often not even the case.

        Example: I looked at a situation a while back in which someone claimed the seller was infringing on a product from a few months earlier. The person complaining said it was copied from his ebook. Out of some 30 or 40 pages, there was one idea that was similar. And it was essential to using the service in question. Not copied, mind you. Just similar. And only a few paragraphs long.

        That's what we deal with. Nonsense, from people who think that selling something - anything - on a technique gives them the sole right to discuss that technique in this forum.

        Gong! Thanks for playing. Step outside and collect your consolation prize.

        As far as screen shots, you have to be familiar with a lot of different systems to know how they look unaltered. And I guarantee you, I could fake them from any system I'd used in ways you would never be able to catch without direct access to my accounts. (I can mention that without fear of being accused, since I don't use them.)

        It's not even that hard to fake video "proof."

        Anyone who buys into screenshots as proof of anything is nuts. Or very inexperienced, which is probably a lot more common.

        So, if you have anything else to say on a subject about which you know next to nothing, I recommend walking into a room where no-one else can hear it and saying it to yourself.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Mike,Ya know, for someone who hasn't a clue how the system works, you've got an awful lot of opinions on how the system works.
          Then please explain it to us.

          The majority of the moderators have nothing to do with approving WSOs. I am not among the people who approve them. So, the next time you freaking rant in my face or any other moderator's face about it, or just spout off randomly, via PM or publicly, I'm going to drop the nice guy and tell you just where you can put your "opinions."

          Are we clear, Mike?
          I didn't rant in anybody's face or call out any particular moderator, I was using the group as a whole.

          You can keep turning a blind eye to the crap that gets approved all you want, but sooner or later there will be enough people complaining about it that the FTC could easily come in here and close this place down until something is done about it. I would think that would be a major concern for you and the group. But hey, you've never taken any suggestion I have given serious consideration that could possibly help the community because you have that "I know better than him" attitude.
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            Mike,
            Then please explain it to us.
            I just explained part of it. Did any of it sink in?

            On this subject, sir, I think it's quite fair to say I know better than you. A lot better. I actually have some small clue about how the system works.

            I also invite you to go back and read Brian Kindsvater's comments. Being an actual lawyer (which we don't hold against him), he has even more clue about that end of things.

            And the comment about turning a blind eye is exactly the sort of spew that should never come out of your mouth. Or keyboard. None of us turns a blind eye to problems that occur here. You'd be amazed, though, at how many times people make that sort of stupid allegation without ever having reported the things they think we're "ignoring." Do you really think that any reasonable number of mods could read every single thread in this forum every day? If you don't tell us about a problem, the odds are good we won't know it exists.

            You weren't here two weeks before you were badmouthing the mods, dude. All because you hadn't bothered reading the freaking rules, and got caught breaking them. And I've seen enough of your BS via PM to last me the rest of my life.

            Go away, Mike, before someone drops a house on you, too.


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              Go away, Mike, before someone drops a house on you, too.Paul
              That's the nicest thing you've said to me in a long time Paul. I'm getting all choked up here.
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        • Profile picture of the author seasoned
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Mike,Ya know, for someone who hasn't a clue how the system works, you've got an awful lot of opinions on how the system works.

          The majority of the moderators have nothing to do with approving WSOs. I am not among the people who approve them. So, the next time you freaking rant in my face or any other moderator's face about it, or just spout off randomly, via PM or publicly, I'm going to drop the nice guy and tell you just where you can put your "opinions."

          Are we clear, Mike?
          I hate to say it, but Paul is right. Besides, some of the WORST offenders are things that are NOT immediately obvious. A person may advertise benefits that many others do, and they sound reasionable, but you buy them and find they aren't there. And some people offer the moon, and DELIVER!

          And MAN are some conceited! Some think they are experts in the chosen subject and say stuff that could be downright DANGEROUS, or illegal. Like a few people advocating piracy and plagerism. And for HEALTH? Well, I WISH I could tell you a story, but I have the same handle someplace else, and I actually spoke with the guy and don't want to betray his trust. Let's just say it wasn't good, he sent out a warning to others to be careful, and he has rethought some things. Luckily HE was the guinea pig! You wouldn't know some of it without getting the product.

          Steve
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      • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
        Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

        The problem here is the moderators are allowing them to become a WSO in the first place. If the mods took more time to look each WSO thread before approving and using stricter guidelines for accepting them, we would see a lot less of these WSO with fake claims and the like.
        If you are so worried about that then volunteer, why don't you?

        It's easy to blame others but mods have their own businesses and they simply have so many hours in a day.

        They are already doing a great job moderating this place considering the amount of activity that happens on the forum. Take them out of the equation and see what this place turns in to.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
          Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post

          If you are so worried about that then volunteer, why don't you?

          It's easy to blame others but mods have their own businesses and they simply have so many hours in a day.
          I do my part by offering solutions to common problems that I see and hear about. I would gladly join the moderator group, but I doubt Paul would want me on the team as we have clashed too many times in the past.
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      • Profile picture of the author Regional Warrior
        Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

        The problem here is the moderators are allowing them to become a WSO in the first place. If the mods took more time to look each WSO thread before approving and using stricter guidelines for accepting them, we would see a lot less of these WSO with fake claims and the like.
        Can of worms there Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
          Originally Posted by Regional Warrior View Post

          Can of worms there Mike
          I tell it like I see it. It doesn't matter who it is that approves WSO's, but the fact remains that stricter regulations need to be put in place to prevent as many crap and false leading WSO's as possible. We don't need any kind of welcome to the FTC here, whether it be for one "empty promise" WSO or a bounty full. I'm sure everyone else feels the same.
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          • Profile picture of the author seasoned
            Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

            I tell it like I see it. It doesn't matter who it is that approves WSO's, but the fact remains that stricter regulations need to be put in place to prevent as many crap and false leading WSO's as possible. We don't need any kind of welcome to the FTC here, whether it be for one "empty promise" WSO or a bounty full. I'm sure everyone else feels the same.
            I don't think the FTC is interested in the Warrior Forum. It is one thing that promised a lot but, considering the price and what it gives, it over delivers. I guess technically the WSOs could even get off on a technicality. Actually, there IS a law that allows them. BUT, when you get past the offer here, THEN the FTC would be VERY interested! THAT is what really counts. NOT a post on a forum, but the actual transaction and offer. All the mods control is the post on this forum. Besides, the bad info on the regular forum is enough to keep the FTC busy for a while.

            Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Originally Posted by zac2 View Post

      Hey kindsvater if I had enough posts I could PM you a few Warriors selling stuff on the WSO forum with faked screenshots that haven't been banned yet.
      You can PM them to me. Just make sure you've got real evidence, rather than speculation.

      If you've got proof, I want to see it.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author zac2
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        You can PM them to me. Jiust make sure you've got real evidence, rather than speculation.

        If you've got proof, I want to see it.


        Paul
        Ok I'll send you the proof so you can see that they are fakes.
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  • Profile picture of the author zac2
    Banned
    Thanks.

    I can see 3 faked screenshots right now from 3 different sellers, all 100% faked.

    One of the 3 sellers has a faked screenshot that isn't posted on the forum but on his website after you opt in. Not sure to report that one or not.

    EDIT: Make that 4 WSO sellers, I spotted another one earlier today.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bruce NewMedia
      Originally Posted by zac2 View Post

      Thanks.

      I can see 3 faked screenshots right now from 3 different sellers, all 100% faked.

      One of the 3 sellers has a faked screenshot that isn't posted on the forum but on his website after you opt in. Not sure to report that one or not.

      EDIT: Make that 4 WSO sellers, I spotted another one earlier today.
      Faked screen shots are a growing problem in the WSO's. In the last 2 weeks I've identified and reported a number of them. Often, sellers are not banned, and return to run another wso.
      _____
      Bruce
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
        Originally Posted by brucerby View Post

        Faked screen shots are a growing problem in the WSO's. In the last 2 weeks I've identified and reported a number of them. Often, sellers are not banned, and return to run another wso.
        _____
        Bruce
        That just gets right under my skin. These people need to be dealt with as soon as the fake claim is noticed. Allowing them to continue to run a WSO is negligent in my opinion. Anyone using a fake claim obviously is either not telling the truth or has something to hide, and those kind of people should not be allowed to continue to have any kind of business here or anywhere else for that matter.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nevin McQ
    Is this a bad thing?

    Yes we all love this forum but if there are "empty promises" and I am talking about real empty promises not peoples decision not to work then this forum should be part of the equation.

    Originally Posted by keyz View Post

    Hey Warriors,

    Everyone may want to read the following...

    Two weeks ago the Federal Trade Commission, the US Justice
    Department, the US Postal Inspection Service and several State
    and Local law enforcement agencies announced the results of a
    full year investigation into "online success" gurus and companies.

    They called it "Operation Empty Promises". You can
    read about it on the FTC site here:

    FTC Steps Up Efforts Against Scams That Target Financially-Strapped Consumers

    The result?

    Dozens and dozens of these "online success" web sites shut down.
    Assets frozen, companies taken over by law enforcement, and
    charges filed against them by several government agencies.

    Companies such as The Shipper LLC and Fortune Learning LLC,
    web sites such as WholesaleMatch.com and Brent Austin's
    Automated Wealth System are JUST A FEW of those mentioned
    in the FTC action.

    Here are just some of the things alleged in the FTC complaints:

    1. "misrepresented their program's earning potential,
    misrepresented the goods and services they would provide"

    2. "promised consumers they could make thousands of dollars
    a week working just 5 to 10 hours"

    3. " 'coaches' lacked the promised knowledge and experience"

    4. "website-building software programs did not work properly"

    5. "lawyers and accountants the defendants said would provide
    assistance were nonexistent"

    THERE'S A LOT MORE. The fallout from this will be going on
    for a very long time. So-called "online gurus" who have
    constantly appeared in your email inbox will disappear.
    Programs you may have already bought into will go away with
    little or no explanation.

    So, Warriors - the FTC would have a ball if they came into the forum
    to enforce Operation Empty Promises.

    If your not being 100% honest with or about your business product,
    software, or you're pumping up income claims, now would be a good
    time to clean up your act.

    Some of the offers you see in this forum would keep the FTC busy for
    a year or more.

    Thanks,

    Robert
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  • Profile picture of the author darrenmonroe
    Maybe I am the crazy one but FTC is so non me. IF you aren't doing this nefarious stuff why worry about them?
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  • Profile picture of the author theaffiliategeek
    I think this is a very good thing for those who like to do business the old fashion way. That is, earning our money by providing real value. A side note to all of this is, deceptive email subject lines are in violation of the can-spam act. For instance.... "You just made a sale"
    when you didn't and a thousand other ones. Just a heads up, those swipe files could get you in a bunch of trouble. A big house cleaning is over due IMHO, and I'm happy to see it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    Get ya pop corn right here!



    Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author OnlineMasterMind
    The thing about all of this is it's mostly complaint driven.

    It doesn't seem like the FTC is going around making individual judgements on every bizopp website online... They have enough on their hands as it is.

    If you research any of those companies you'll see they are all VERY shady. This is not sell a hyped up bizopp ebook shady... It's completely different... like no deliverables and no support kind of shady.

    And fwiw I think the WF is extremely well run. It's silly and unreasonable to expect mods here to go through every product and then make a judgement call if it's worthy of the sales copy. The forum, for the most part, does a pretty good job of that on its own.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind View Post

      The thing about all of this is it's mostly complaint driven.

      It doesn't seem like the FTC is going around making individual judgements on every bizopp website online... They have enough on their hands as it is.

      If you research any of those companies you'll see they are all VERY shady. This is not sell a hyped up bizopp ebook shady... It's completely different... like no deliverables and no support kind of shady.

      And fwiw I think the WF is extremely well run. It's silly and unreasonable to expect mods here to go through every product and then make a judgement call if it's worthy of the sales copy. The forum, for the most part, does a pretty good job of that on its own.
      That's probably why ClickBank doesn't make it on to the FTC's radar. They have a very generous, no questions asked refund policy even beyond their stated 60 days. If people get their money back they probably won't go and report it to places like the FTC.
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      • Profile picture of the author Fred1
        Originally Posted by Alan Petersen View Post

        That's probably why ClickBank doesn't make it on to the FTC's radar. They have a very generous, no questions asked refund policy even beyond their stated 60 days. If people get their money back they probably won't go and report it to places like the FTC.
        Great point.

        It would be nice to see ClickBank crack down on all the offers being pushed with the fake income/screen shots. There's one out now with a "former stripper" who made $250K with CB her first 90 days. It's sad seeing that sort of thing being allowed.
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  • Profile picture of the author mitoshthewarrior
    Originally Posted by keyz View Post

    Hey Warriors,

    Everyone may want to read the following...

    Two weeks ago the Federal Trade Commission, the US Justice
    Department, the US Postal Inspection Service and several State
    and Local law enforcement agencies announced the results of a
    full year investigation into "online success" gurus and companies.

    They called it "Operation Empty Promises". You can
    read about it on the FTC site here:

    FTC Steps Up Efforts Against Scams That Target Financially-Strapped Consumers

    The result?

    Dozens and dozens of these "online success" web sites shut down.
    Assets frozen, companies taken over by law enforcement, and
    charges filed against them by several government agencies.

    Companies such as The Shipper LLC and Fortune Learning LLC,
    web sites such as WholesaleMatch.com and Brent Austin's
    Automated Wealth System are JUST A FEW of those mentioned
    in the FTC action.

    Here are just some of the things alleged in the FTC complaints:

    1. "misrepresented their program's earning potential,
    misrepresented the goods and services they would provide"

    2. "promised consumers they could make thousands of dollars
    a week working just 5 to 10 hours"

    3. " 'coaches' lacked the promised knowledge and experience"

    4. "website-building software programs did not work properly"

    5. "lawyers and accountants the defendants said would provide
    assistance were nonexistent"

    THERE'S A LOT MORE. The fallout from this will be going on
    for a very long time. So-called "online gurus" who have
    constantly appeared in your email inbox will disappear.
    Programs you may have already bought into will go away with
    little or no explanation.

    So, Warriors - the FTC would have a ball if they came into the forum
    to enforce Operation Empty Promises.

    If your not being 100% honest with or about your business product,
    software, or you're pumping up income claims, now would be a good
    time to clean up your act.

    Some of the offers you see in this forum would keep the FTC busy for
    a year or more.

    Thanks,

    Robert
    90% of the IM market would fall under that category, maybe 98%.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dwight Anthony
    Great! It will cut down on all the hype and bs out there. Hopefully, it will lead to higher quality products being created.
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  • Profile picture of the author TimG
    Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

    Do you really believe that. I would say it is the majority. It is a small percentage that are completely honest.

    Shannon
    I don't think it's that bad either Shannon....probably closer to 60% that are completely honest. There is plenty of garbage that's for sure but there is also a lot of good in many of the folks here.

    Trouble is they get drowned out by all the noise created from the garbage.

    Respectfully,
    Tim
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Chris,
    That second quote about the FTC is quite prophetic. In my view, WF should be proactive and stop any material claims. I thought specific claims like these were against FTC rules anyway?
    I've been on record for a long time supporting a ban on income claims. Count me in. But I don't make the rules, and there are reasonable arguments against that one.

    The FTC has specific rules about them, and they are pretty easy to understand. Basically (and very loosely), they must represent the typical results a reasonable person can expect to achieve using the product or system.

    Very loosely stated...


    Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author tpw
    Originally Posted by Shannon Herod View Post

    I doubt that they would shut the forum, since it is a small percentage of the advertisers doing the blatant dishonest stuff.
    Do you really believe that. I would say it is the majority. It is a small percentage that are completely honest.

    Shannon

    I have to admit that I don't spend much time in the WSO Section, but I always tend to believe that most people are honest and offering honest products and services.
    Signature
    Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
    Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by Nevin McQ View Post

      I have to admit that I don't spend much time in the WSO Section, but I always tend to believe that most people are honest and offering honest products and services.

      Should any of us believe what you have to say...all of your posts are directed toward your article company in way or another

      You must be very selective about what you read that has been written by me.

      Given an honest assessment, it would be hard to prove your assertion.

      My signature doesn't even point to my article company. In fact, my signature doesn't even suggest I own one.


      p.s. If you don't believe I am trustworthy, then you should not buy from me ever.
      Signature
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      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
    1. It would be naive to believe that someone from the FTC hasn't already
    perused the Warrior Forum... or that someone from the FTC doesn't cruise
    by here periodically for a quick look.

    2. If they found something they objected to... even in mass... I doubt
    they'd shut the whole thing down. I believe they would go after the individual
    sellers.

    Tsnyder
    Signature
    If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
      Originally Posted by Nevin McQ View Post

      useless post must be a moderator favorite
      Originally Posted by Nevin McQ View Post

      Should any of us believe what you have to say...all of your posts are directed toward your article company in way or another
      Another useless whiner.

      If I was a moderator, you and Mike would be banned right now. The only reason you aren't, is because threads like these and the whiners they inevitably attract, can be quite educational, and entertaining at the same time.

      If you have a problem with the way this forum is run, then perhaps you should make sure to let the door hit you on the ass on the way out, and go start your own forum.

      Same goes for you Mike, it seems you like to whine about a whole lot of topics and practices within the IM niche, such as up-sells, exit pops etc. Make sure the door hits you to, and make sure it is hard.

      Chris
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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

        useless post must be a moderator favorite
        Should any of us believe what you have to say...all of your posts are directed toward your article company in way or another

        Another useless whiner.

        If I was a moderator, you and Mike would be banned right now. The only reason you aren't, is because threads like these and the whiners they inevitably attract, can be quite educational, and entertaining at the same time.

        If you have a problem with the way this forum is run, then perhaps you should make sure to let the door hit you on the ass on the way out, and go start your own forum.

        Same goes for you Mike, it seems you like to whine about a whole lot of topics and practices within the IM niche, such as up-sells, exit pops etc. Make sure the door hits you to, and make sure it is hard.

        Chris

        You were so right Chris...

        Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

        Get ya pop corn right here!
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      • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
        Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

        Another useless whiner.

        If I was a moderator, you and Mike would be banned right now. The only reason you aren't, is because threads like these and the whiners they inevitably attract, can be quite educational, and entertaining at the same time.

        If you have a problem with the way this forum is run, then perhaps you should make sure to let the door hit you on the ass on the way out, and go start your own forum.

        Same goes for you Mike, it seems you like to whine about a whole lot of topics and practices within the IM niche, such as up-sells, exit pops etc. Make sure the door hits you to, and make sure it is hard.

        Chris
        Oooooh, now that's what I'm talking about

        LOL J/K

        But I honestly agree with you here. We are all here by our own "free will" and if anyone of us doesn't like how this place is run then we shouldn't be here.
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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post

          Oooooh, now that's what I'm talking about

          LOL J/K

          But I honestly agree with you here. We are all here by our own "free will" and if anyone of us doesn't like how this place is run then we shouldn't be here.
          Mo, this is a public forum with its own unique set of rules and guidelines, and we consented to this the moment we registered here. There are many other IM forums out there catering to different proclivities and inclinations if this doesn't suit you, and of course you have to take the good with the inevitable not-so-good when in a public place like this - unless you own the forum, you really have no say in changing its rules and guidelines.
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          • Profile picture of the author tpw
            Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

            unless you own the forum, you really have no say in changing its rules and guidelines.

            And may I add, how those rules are enforced and when.
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            • Profile picture of the author HigherPrThanGod
              Originally Posted by tpw View Post

              And may I add, how those rules are enforced and when.


              p.s. HigherPrThanGod: Aren't we supposed to be leaving "political commentary" out of any discussion about government regulations?
              Federal government regulations are political.

              (And this will be my final post on this as I can see what's going on here)
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              • Profile picture of the author tpw
                Originally Posted by HigherPrThanGod View Post

                Federal government regulations are political.

                Maybe in their origin, but not how we deal with them as business owners.

                As long as the regulation exists, we must deal with it as it affects our businesses.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
            Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

            Another useless whiner.

            If I was a moderator, you and Mike would be banned right now. The only reason you aren't, is because threads like these and the whiners they inevitably attract, can be quite educational, and entertaining at the same time.

            If you have a problem with the way this forum is run, then perhaps you should make sure to let the door hit you on the ass on the way out, and go start your own forum.

            Same goes for you Mike, it seems you like to whine about a whole lot of topics and practices within the IM niche, such as up-sells, exit pops etc. Make sure the door hits you to, and make sure it is hard.

            Chris
            I was going to mention this earlier but decided not to and was hoping everyone would ignore your irrelevant post. Your first post in this thread contributed as much as tits on a bull.

            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Chris,

            Mike complains about a lot, but he's also a regular contributor, and usually in a positive way. That buys him a lot more room than this McQ character will likely manage to hang around enough to get.

            Mike's not a bad guy. He just needs to learn how much he doesn't know before he starts letting the rest of us know.


            Paul
            Firstly, I want to thank you Paul for the comments.

            Secondly, the reason why I complain as much as I do is because I care about this community and want to see all the crap that I see gone from this place as soon as possible. My methods may be in your face and brutally honest, but that's how I get with situations like this.

            Thirdly, and I'm sure I have spoken to you about this previously, I have owned and run 2 big name forums that were the headquarters for one of the biggest known graphic groups the Internet has ever seen. I was the 2nd in command for the group known as Master Works. I was the owner and admin and was on the site 16 hours a day making all the major decisions with the help of 1 or 2 super moderators.
            The other forum I maintained was a very high profile site much like this one. The admin rarely visited the site and gave me full power and responsibility to run the site and make sure everything ran as smoothly as possible which it did until I called out the admin for not caring for the community.

            So I know how a high profile forum runs and what is needed to keep everything running smoothly. I just see a lot of things that happen here that would never have happened on any of those sites. Any problem that arose would nipped in the bud as soon as possible. I just get irratated in the differences that I see in how things are run here and how I have done so in the past and how I would do again.
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            • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
              Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

              I was going to mention this earlier but decided not to and was hoping everyone would ignore your irrelevant post. Your first post in this thread contributed as much as tits on a bull.
              lol, you obviously have never heard the term, pop corn thread. Here, I'l explain the significance of my first post for you since you have completely missed the point.

              Threads like these inevitably become heated and attract whiners, just like flies to sh*t.(Credit-Allen) And can be incredibly educational and entertaining at the same time.

              Chris
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              • Profile picture of the author goindeep
                Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

                lol, you obviously have never heard the term, pop corn thread. Here, I'l explain the significance of my first post for you since you have completely missed the point.

                Threads like these inevitably become heated and attract whiners, just like flies to sh*t.(Credit-Allen) And can be incredibly educational and entertaining at the same time.

                Chris
                Lol-O-Saurus!
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
                Originally Posted by Chris Worner View Post

                lol, you obviously have never heard the term, pop corn thread. Here, I'l explain the significance of my first post for you since you have completely missed the point.

                Threads like these inevitably become heated and attract whiners, just like flies to sh*t.(Credit-Allen) And can be incredibly educational and entertaining at the same time.

                Chris
                I know what a pop corn thread is, but by posting that to a thread that you expect will be become pop corny is simply not helping matters or contributing to the conversation. If anything, you could make matters worse by posting such things in a thread like this. We don't need things to get any more heated that needed, and believe me I'm not the type of guy who likes heated conversations/debates.
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                • Profile picture of the author tpw
                  Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

                  I know what a pop corn thread is, but by posting that to a thread that you expect will be become pop corny is simply not helping matters or contributing to the conversation. If anything, you could make matters worse by posting such things in a thread like this. We don't need things to get any more heated that needed, and believe me I'm not the type of guy who likes heated conversations/debates.

                  Mr. Popcorn brought a smile to my face, so I would argue that it provided legitimate value to the thread.

                  And "heated arguments" generally occur in any thread you participate in Mike. You should be used to that by now.

                  If you are really "not the type of guy who likes heated conversations/debates", then you might consider tempering your words when you enter into threads like this...

                  You are trying to convince us you are not the type, but your actual behavior in threads suggests differently most of the time...
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          • Profile picture of the author tpw
            Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

            btw I think some of the vitriole in this thread is getting out of hand. From people on both sides of the fence. Let's please be adults. It is easy to throw social graces out of the window say things to each other on a forum that we would not say to each other face to face.

            I don't know if you were speaking to my behavior or not, but I can assure you that if I said it in a post, I would say it to your face as well.
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          • Profile picture of the author paulie888
            Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post

            Hey Paulie,

            I respectfully disagree with this. The forum is nothing without the community.

            Allen has the final say, no doubt about that. But I believe that the contributors should at least be listened to. I'm sure we are too.


            btw I think some of the vitriole in this thread is getting out of hand. From people on both sides of the fence. Let's please be adults. It is easy to throw social graces out of the window say things to each other on a forum that we would not say to each other face to face.
            Chris, what I was really meaning to say is that a dissenting minority opinion is probably not going to be considered seriously, for the most part, and it's pretty obvious that this is the case here. You can't pander to everyone and be all things to all people when running a huge public forum, and ultimately the decision rests on Allen's shoulders whether to change things or not.

            Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Chris,

    Mike complains about a lot, but he's also a regular contributor, and usually in a positive way. That buys him a lot more room than this McQ character will likely manage to hang around enough to get.

    Mike's not a bad guy. He just needs to learn how much he doesn't know before he starts letting the rest of us know.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author HigherPrThanGod
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    Like all things, this will have it's pros and cons.

    Whenever the government does something, the question of "are they violating the constitution?" will always arise and people will always have different opinions on it.

    Do I believe something needs to be done about these stupid "make a bajillion dollars in 20 mintes" products?

    Absolutely.

    Now, if FTC starts cracking down will they bring other "unpleasant" rules with them that will make it a little hard for all the honest marketers but hey we gotta live with that.

    Internet Marketing is always changing and we have to learn to adapt to these changes. Whether they be technological changes or change of laws.
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    • Profile picture of the author HigherPrThanGod
      Originally Posted by Mohammad Afaq View Post

      Like all things, this will have it's pros and cons.

      Whenever the government does something, the question of "are they violating the constitution?" will always arise and people will always have different opinions on it.

      Do I believe something needs to be done about these stupid "make a bajillion dollars in 20 mintes" products?

      Absolutely.

      Now, if FTC starts cracking down will they bring other "unpleasant" rules with them that will make it a little hard for all the honest marketers but hey we gotta live with that.

      Internet Marketing is always changing and we have to learn to adapt to these changes. Whether they be technological changes or change of laws.
      It's almost as though we don't have a democratic republic, and we're just supposed to throw our hands up as though we have no control over these decisions.

      As far as adapting to this - good luck on that.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
        Originally Posted by HigherPrThanGod View Post

        It's almost as though we don't have a democratic republic, and we're just supposed to throw our hands up as though we have no control over these decisions.

        As far as adapting to this - good luck on that.
        Well we control these decisions by voting and by bugging our elected representatives and that's the extent of it.

        Other than that, nothing much we can do about it really. IMHO Democracy is overrated

        ....(tries to take his mind away from political chat, oh look there's a flower right there)........
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  • Profile picture of the author Wayne-JJ
    This is great!

    For honest quality providers out there they will thrive as majority of their so called competitors will be gone.

    For buyers they are going to get top notch products. Now talk about a win-win situation!
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  • Profile picture of the author P.Sharma
    Absolute truth my friend. Although the WF tries to keep all the possible scammers at bay it is just not possible to avoid them totally.

    Its about time we understand that online business is just like any other business where CUSTOMER SATISFACTION is the key. TRANSPERANCY in operations and disclosure is another aspect of online business. I hope that this only leaves the real legit sellers in the market and those who form closed groups to promote each others' stupid and fluff stuff get what they deserve
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  • Profile picture of the author Ernie Lo
    How can people be happy about this?

    You give the gover.nment a piece of control and they'll eventually overtake the whole god damn Internet and tax us left right and center and fine innocent people in the process with countless rules and regulations.

    This is is the start of the infection!

    The Internet was founded on free market principles which will slowly vanish.

    I'd rather a few people who didn't do their research get scammed instead of having polices like this which will infect the whole Internet - the last free place on earth.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by Ernie Lonardo View Post

      How can people be happy about this?

      You give the gover.nment a piece of control and they'll eventually overtake the whole god damn Internet and tax us left right and center and fine innocent people in the process with countless rules and regulations.

      This is is the start of the infection!

      The Internet was founded on free market principles which will slowly vanish.

      I'd rather a few people who didn't do their research get scammed instead of having polices like this which will infect the whole Internet - the last free place on earth.
      Ernie, you're absolutely right. Having big brother meddle in the internet for the "greater good" is only going to have detrimental consequences, and crush creativity, innovation and entrepreneurialism here.

      When they start "regulating" things here, you'll see the free market gradually go away, and this will ultimately decrease revenues generated and overall profitability. We can already see some repercussions occurring from the state governments wanting to have a hand in tax revenues from Amazon, and it doesn't look good.

      Let's hope we don't experience any more serious government intrusions on our internet business activities.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
      Originally Posted by Ernie Lonardo View Post

      How can people be happy about this?

      You give the gover.nment a piece of control and they'll eventually overtake the whole god damn Internet and tax us left right and center and fine innocent people in the process with countless rules and regulations.

      This is is the start of the infection!

      The Internet was founded on free market principles which will slowly vanish.

      I'd rather a few people who didn't do their research get scammed instead of having polices like this which will infect the whole Internet - the last free place on earth.
      The Internet was founded by the government not on any free market principles. Ripping off people has been illegal for a long time. Before the Internet. They used to tar and feather snake oil salesmen.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Baker
    As explained before, I am trying to provide helpful solutions to common problems here. The way I word my sentences can often come across as rash and arrogant, but that is never my intent. I have already explained to a few people the reason for this, and it's not something that I can fix overnight.

    I am also very passionate about these things and when I am passionate I keep on about it until either it makes sense to you or you agree with me. I am sorry if that offends some people, but we are all different and need to learn to be acceptable of all.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by mikescos View Post

      As explained before, I am trying to provide helpful solutions to common problems here. The way I word my sentences can often come across as rash and arrogant, but that is never my intent. I have already explained to a few people the reason for this, and it's not something that I can fix overnight.

      I am also very passionate about these things and when I am passionate I keep on about it until either it makes sense to you or you agree with me. I am sorry if that offends some people, but we are all different and need to learn to be acceptable of all.

      Mike, I have heard the story.

      It reminds me of an engagement I had with my oldest last night.

      He got in trouble, then threw himself on the floor and started throwing a tantrum because he got in trouble.

      So I deliberately pissed him off by telling him he was a "drama queen" and suggesting that "he is the only 10yo I know that behaves that way." (That really pisses him off, because he is actually 11yo.)

      When I asked him why he behaved that way, he had the balls to tell me that "he is just more sensitive than other children his age."

      I told him, "Bull****. You are just using that as a crutch to excuse your bad behavior."



      Now Mike, I have heard your story, so you really don't need to share it again here...

      But honestly, you can control that part of you... You simply choose not to do so...

      If it is what you described, then you should type your reply, sit on it for 20 minutes, then review it with a clear mind, before hitting the button that says, "Submit Reply".

      Never respond to anything when you are angry or agitated... Always clear your mind and review your post, before you submit it...

      If you were to do that, you would find that you will piss off fewer people.

      After all, you should only piss someone off, when you intend to do so...

      Don't use your condition as a crutch to explain your bad behavior...

      Instead, take the recommended steps to avoid your bad behavior, and we might start taking you a little more seriously.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

      1. It would be naive to believe that someone from the FTC hasn't already perused the Warrior Forum... or that someone from the FTC doesn't cruise
      by here periodically for a quick look.

      2. If they found something they objected to... even in mass... I doubt
      they'd shut the whole thing down. I believe they would go after the individual
      sellers.

      Tsnyder
      That was my initial thinking. I only skimmed that article, but from what I picked up on many (most?) of the companies that were busted had high pressure boiler room operations set up. I'm guessing the scammers in the WSO forum are pretty small potatoes by comparison.

      Originally Posted by tpw View Post



      Being from Oklahoma, I know that not all cowboys are bad people.
      Having grown up on a horse ranch, I can also attest that not all who appear to be cowboys are really cowboys.

      Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

      Bill, let's not forget the cows as well, cow-tipping is notoriously popular around here.
      Watch it, Paulie, someone is bound to believe cow tipping is real with that kind of talk.
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      Just when you think you've got it all figured out, someone changes the rules.

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      • Profile picture of the author tpw
        Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

        Bill, let's not forget the cows as well, cow-tipping is notoriously popular around here.

        Watch it, Paulie, someone is bound to believe cow tipping is real with that kind of talk.

        I heard about this guy driving through the country one day in a stiff wind.

        He looked up and realized all the cows were laying down, but the bull had his feet planted firmly on the ground, with his head braced against the wind.

        Ole' boy just had to understand why, so he parked and run across the field to ask why.

        The old bull responded to his query, "We bulls, we wobble, but we don't fall down."
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        • Profile picture of the author profitsforall
          Originally Posted by tpw View Post

          I heard about this guy driving through the country one day in a stiff wind.

          He looked up and realized all the cows were laying down, but the bull had his feet planted firmly on the ground, with his head braced against the wind.

          Ole' boy just had to understand why, so he parked and run across the field to ask why.

          The old bull responded to his query, "We bulls, we wobble, but we don't fall down."
          tpw,

          Congratulations on a post that made me groan and snort my drink all over the keyboard at the same time.
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    If i just see a word like "automated wealth system"...come on people, common sense...

    Good they shut them down!
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post

      I wouldn't be surprised if most internet marketeers are full of BS. Hope they all get shut down with their annoying spam.
      Their emails may be annoying, but they aren't spam. You opted into their lists, and therefore started receiving promotional emails from them - spam only applies to unsolicited bulk emails. Please get your terminology straight.
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      • Profile picture of the author Spartacus
        Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

        Their emails may be annoying, but they aren't spam. You opted into their lists, and therefore started receiving promotional emails from them - spam only applies to unsolicited bulk emails. Please get your terminology straight.
        Haha, you're right. I just got out of bed when I typed that, wasn't very clear. Although some probably still send spam without you opting into a list, after buying a product.

        It started to get annoying though :p
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by GeorgR. View Post

      If i just see a word like "automated wealth system"...come on people, common sense...

      Good they shut them down!
      I had a talk yesterday with a guy that illustrates the point I want to make. HE said he wanted to buy one 7/11 and work that into HUNDREDS of 7/11s. He would then make over $700,000 a month. That is about $8.4million a year. He THEN said that 7/11 should NOT have allowed people to get 1000+ 7/11s. He speaks of how millionares would know people that work for them, but billionares won't. Interesting thoughts.

      Anyway, many think of the internet almost like brick and mortar. After all, there are ~7 billion people. Never mind that most probably can't buy from you on the internet. So how is an "automated wealth system" impossible? It can definitely work for hundreds, or even thousands. I'll ask you what I asked him. Where should the cutoff be? HE said about 100 per person.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Steadyon
    I wonder how many of the dozen or two syndicate members are now wondering if they will be contacted.

    Some of their $1,997 "programs" and connected sales pitches wouldn't stand up to close scrutiny.

    Hey boys, it could be time to move away from the California beach towns, and head back to the hills...
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Munch
    Looks like more of my predictions are coming true:
    Hatred for scammers and unethical internet marketers will increase both as a result, and also due to the need to find an enemy and assign blame that accompanies a downturn. A general distrust against internet marketers as a whole will grow considerably and the industry will be largely tarnished leaving the ethical members of the internet industry tarred with the same brush.
    A boom in spam and scammers and a growth of hatred towards internet marketers will drive more rules and legislation on the internet business community.
    Record fines and punishments against online scammers and spammers will be delivered. While scammers and spammers have had somewhat of an easy ride during the boom times, they will eventually become a hated target if stocks drop far enough.
    Source: Making Money Online Economy Driven by Stock Market | A Boom Ahead?
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  • Profile picture of the author monsterrager
    A good start would be cleaning up CB etc, but then again a lot of scams get their starts on forums and kind of fly below the radar so to speak. We as an internet community need to stick together in exposing these type of scams by reporting this stuff to the FTC.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by monsterrager View Post

      A good start would be cleaning up CB etc, but then again a lot of scams get their starts on forums and kind of fly below the radar so to speak. We as an internet community need to stick together in exposing these type of scams by reporting this stuff to the FTC.
      Yeah, CB with calling themselves a vendor, and having access to the product, is treading on thin ice. That IS a major lawsuit waiting to happen. Of course, paypal, CJ, etc... can't say the same thing. CB IS a bit unusual in this regard.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author VGreg
    Well personally I think it is a good thing. Finally someone decided to shut down the scammers.
    People may finally realize that they should focus more on actually helping people when they charge for it, instead of just trying to rip them off.
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  • Profile picture of the author dtaylor
    Most of us have probably bought some "guru's" product in the past and been disappointed with it. That is the very reason I started coming to WF in the first place. The no-holds-barred evaluations by players of varying levels was very refreshing after reading mostly hype elsewhere.

    I still get a few WSO's that are not that great, but overall I have gotten great value here. The free advice and information more than makes up for a couple of lackluster WSO's.

    I have the same type of confidence in Clickbank due to their refund policy. I used it once and it worked like a charm.

    The FTC and others are out to find outright scammers and thieves. There are enough of them out there to keep them busy for quite a while without bothering with a few WSO's.

    Thanks for the info.

    DTaylor
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  • Profile picture of the author Sylonious
    Originally Posted by keyz View Post

    If your not being 100% honest with or about your business product,
    software, or you're pumping up income claims, now would be a good
    time to clean up your act.
    It's not really about honesty. Even if you make a couple grand a month with 5-10 hours of work each week you can't promise the customer that they can do the same thing. You have to give them the average customer experience, which is probably going to be terrible.

    Originally Posted by Nevin McQ View Post

    Is this a bad thing?

    Yes we all love this forum but if there are "empty promises" and I am talking about real empty promises not peoples decision not to work then this forum should be part of the equation.
    Well, the FTC can't really tell the difference between a legit WSO and a scam. All they can do is prioritize based on how many complaints they get.

    Hey, Anybody notice all the endorsements Charlie Sheen has been making recently. Where is the FTC for that?
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  • Profile picture of the author monsterrager
    Are we heading towards a regulatory type entity that deals with all of these IM systems and such being sold over the internet? I mean should any individual be allowed to make fantastic claims about their method and how they made "millions" without a shred of truth?
    I think it boils down to people being deceptive just to make a buck, and there are no watchdogs around to make sure the truth is being told. Now dont tell me about forums and how they weed out the bad apples because i guess there is some truth to that but there are also instances where these crappy products get glowing testimonials from people who are total shills and you and i both know that.

    Can i point out specific WSO's , no because i do not buy everything that comes along. IMHO i think some sort of 3rd party regulation is necessary. Will it get rid of all the bad apples? No. Will it raise the prices of products that really work as claimed, Probably.

    Personally i think persons and entities who are letting these types of scams propagate by giving said person the means to do so and an audience, should be held accountable for their actions just the same as anyone else.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      It doesn't matter who it is that approves WSO's, but the fact remains that stricter regulations need to be put in place to prevent as many crap and false leading WSO's as possible.
      Personally i think persons and entities who are letting these types of scams propagate by giving said person the means to do so and an audience, should be held accountable for their actions just the same as anyone else.
      It's very easy to say stuff like this, and it probably makes you feel all warm and fuzzy and righteous, but it ignores the realities of the situation.

      Mechanics. Processes. Standards and definitions.

      First, you have to throw out words like "crap," "rehash," and anything else that can't be objectively defined. I buy a fair amount of WSOs, some to learn from and some just to keep a general feel for what's being sold. I've seen stuff that I consider junk get good reviews from smart people who I know mean what they're saying. If they got something from it that will help them in their business, is it really crap, or just not useful to me?

      I can objectively assess layout, grammar, clarity, product design, completeness, etc. I cannot objectively assess "crap" in most cases.

      "Rehash" is even worse. The way it's used here, all it means is, "I've seen some part of some idea in this somewhere else before." So what? A lot of people haven't. That's like saying math textbooks are rehashed crap because we've already learned what they have to teach, and many of them haven't changed significantly in decades.

      Hello... It's math. It doesn't change.

      It's almost the same with "stolen." Sorry, folks, but no-one has the monopoly on techniques here. Copyright issues we can deal with, but that's a much narrower thing than "She's teaching the same thing."

      Yes, I think it's sleazy for someone to grab another person's product and just rework it and sell it in the same market. But it's not something we can do anything about, even if we could prove they did that. Which, in most cases, would be impossible.

      The word "scam" also has little meaning the way it's used around here. All I can glean from most such accusations is that the person using the word doesn't like something. The sane folks in the crowd would be surprised at just how many complaints I see that say, "It's a scam. Nothing but rehashed crap."

      What part of that is a basis for taking action?

      The process of vetting products before allowing them to be sold would be so time-consuming as to be impossible. Even if it were not, there'd be the matter of expertise. You'd need people who knew all about every field of the industry to qualify for that kind of effort. No-one knows that much about that many things in this business.

      Not to mention that if we allow people to think that approving an ad constitutes an endorsement by the forum, we effectively remove the incentive for people to apply their own judgment.

      That's a Really Bad Idea.

      If you have a complaint about a product or seller, you need to report it. You need to be specific, and you need to be clear. Leave out any comments about the seller as a person.

      That's it. Simple. And almost no-one follows that basic approach to reporting things. We get lots of noisy rants here about all the alleged evils going on in the WSO section, but very few specific complaints. The funny thing is, the people who make useful and valid complaints are rarely among the ones jumping on that bandwagon. Because they know the stuff gets dealt with.

      It's a complaint-driven system, people. It's too big to be handled any other way. We do what we can up front, but in the end, it's up to you.

      Now, if you want to improve the quality of the offers, that's something you can do much better than the moderation team. If the product doesn't measure up, mention that in the thread. Tell people what you think. If it's good stuff, tell them that, too. If it doesn't deliver, get a refund. Make suggestions for improvements. Give real reviews, not meaningless comments, like "Great stuff" or "This sucks."

      And, as a personal suggestion, don't buy anything that makes specific income claims. Those are almost always the problem offers.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author webpromotions
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        It's very easy to say stuff like this, and it probably makes you feel all warm and fuzzy and righteous, but it ignores the realities of the situation.

        Mechanics. Processes. Standards and definitions.

        Paul
        Um, the FTC has already laid out the mechanics, processes, standards and definitions.

        What about their recently published guidelines about income claims?

        You saying that the majority of the WSO's follow these new rules? Even HALF?

        I can't believe the bashing that has gone on in this thread towards a couple of people who have pointed out some pretty clear 'issues' with a LOT of WSO's.
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  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    The WF is way ahead of the FTC in screening out the scams.

    Just go to "Internet Marketing Product Reviews & Reviews."

    Just go to "WSO" section and see the self-policing from other members. There are probably not more than a handful of members that get mislead, conned, scammed or whatever word might apply for a bad WSO. The reaction to bad WSO's is swift and merciless. I am not aware of any WSO that scammed hundreds or thousands of people or that lasted very long.

    P.S. to Newbies - If you are interested in a WSO that is not from one of the experienced members with a good reputation be careful. Do not ever believe any income claims, any screen shots, or any so-called video proof of income, traffic, or such. Also be careful to wait for awhile and see the replies that come in to a new WSO thread. Only give weight to the replies from members that have had time to actually try the product or service.
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  • Profile picture of the author Oneal Degrassi
    Here's another way to handle it...

    I considered myself "scammed" (yes, I know that's not objective) with the very first WSO I purchased from some moron. And guess what...I haven't been in that forum since.

    Problem solved.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Doug,
      Um, the FTC has already laid out the mechanics, processes, standards and definitions.
      Yep. For sellers of products, not the places they advertise. Remember, the WF is not the merchant in a WSO. That's a different set of processes and mechanics.

      Consider TV stations. They sell advertising to a relatively small group of merchants, for a whole lot more money, and they can't vet every ad. The seller is responsible for delivering on their promises. Not the broadcaster.

      We do what we reasonably can to keep out the creeps, but in a system this size, there's going to be some that sneak through. When we're made aware of them, we take action.
      You saying that the majority of the WSO's follow these new rules? Even HALF?
      Impossible for us to know, in most cases. And that's a problem. It's why I've been telling people for years to ignore income claims and alleged "proof" of same.

      I personally think income claims should be forbidden there, but that's not my call to make.
      I can't believe the bashing that has gone on in this thread towards a couple of people who have pointed out some pretty clear 'issues' with a LOT of WSO's.
      I'm not sure who else you're talking about, but Mike was addressed in a tone appropriate to the one he consistently adopts when discussing this (or almost any other) moderation issue.

      Spewing bile is not the way to earn civility. Mike will learn that at some point, I'm sure.

      Keep in mind that the moderators actually see who's reporting specific incidents in useful ways. Comparing that list to the list of people who rant about the subject would shock you. There is almost zero overlap.

      If a person rarely or never reports specific incidents, but talks at length about the "widespread problem," what does that suggest to you about their premise, or the credibility of their argument? Or their actual concern for addressing the problem in a practical way?

      There are people who help us get things done, and there are people who rant about things not getting done. Again, very little overlap. Which group do you think we'd be wiser to listen to?


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Alan Petersen
        • Start Your Own Online Home Based Business Using Just Your Computer And Telephone!
        • Do you want to be your own boss?
        • Do you want financial and time freedom?
        • Earn $3000+ per month working 5-10 hours per week from home.

        These are not WSO headlines they're in the classified ad section of the San Francisco Chronicle newspaper.

        I doubt the FTC is going to kick down the door of the chronicle. The WSO is basically an online classified AD section of the WF and it's not the WF's responsibility to vet and police it.

        Just like the chronicle if someone is ripping off folks outright then you can report it and if they determine after their investigation they'll pull an ad as they do here (yanking and locking of WSO's happens).

        It takes the FTC months of investigation at tax-payer money to shut down a site and everyone expects the WF to do so like it's no big deal. Easy, peasy.

        I think people are confused thinking that a WSO is somehow vetted and endorsed by Allen. It is not! People need to take some responsibility and use freaking common sense.
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  • Profile picture of the author CaliChristian
    I'm going to miss all those Ads that say, "They made $12,345.67 in 8 days working 9 hours a week."
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    Christian Credit Counselors is a non-profit organization that has been credit counseling for 20 years and our credit counselors have helped over 200,000 individuals and families get out of debt in less than 4 years.
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    • Profile picture of the author RussRuffino
      Originally Posted by CaliChristian View Post

      I'm going to miss all those Ads that say, "They made $12,345.67 in 8 days working 9 hours a week."
      Okay see, but the thing is, I've DONE THIS, using mostly techniques I learned from Russell Brunson, Chris Farrell, and several other gurus.

      If I'm just a totally regular guy, and I follow their advice, and now I have a huge monthly income while only working part-time hours, why shouldn't they be able to say that?

      Russ
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      • Profile picture of the author J Bold
        Originally Posted by RussRuffino View Post

        Okay see, but the thing is, I've DONE THIS, using mostly techniques I learned from Russell Brunson, Chris Farrell, and several other gurus.

        If I'm just a totally regular guy, and I follow their advice, and now I have a huge monthly income while only working part-time hours, why shouldn't they be able to say that?

        Russ
        I think, in this discussion, you bring up a very good point.

        There's a difference between saying, "You can easily make 1 bajillion dollars in the next minute even if you're an idiot because I'll show you just how I did it and you can too!" and saying "I have made a bajillion dollars in a minute and I'm an idiot, here's how I did it."

        In the first one you are making a promise of sorts that one came easily reproduce what you've done, which may or may not be true.

        In the second one you're merely saying you've done it, and then you can show them exactly how you did it, but remind them that reproducing the results is up to them, their circumstances and perhaps a bit of luck or good fortune.

        I think the first one should be avoided, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with the second one. It may not pack quite the same punch but I don't see anything wrong with using the amount of money you've made as a selling point, because it does have a wow factor, and as long as you are saying "I've done this and I'll show you how but no promises in the end" there's nothing misleading and no empty promises are made.
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        • Profile picture of the author paulie888
          Originally Posted by redicelander View Post

          I think, in this discussion, you bring up a very good point.

          There's a difference between saying, "You can easily make 1 bajillion dollars in the next minute even if you're an idiot because I'll show you just how I did it and you can too!" and saying "I have made a bajillion dollars in a minute and I'm an idiot, here's how I did it."

          In the first one you are making a promise of sorts that one came easily reproduce what you've done, which may or may not be true.

          In the second one you're merely saying you've done it, and then you can show them exactly how you did it, but remind them that reproducing the results is up to them, their circumstances and perhaps a bit of luck or good fortune.

          I think the first one should be avoided, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with the second one. It may not pack quite the same punch but I don't see anything wrong with using the amount of money you've made as a selling point, because it does have a wow factor, and as long as you are saying "I've done this and I'll show you how but no promises in the end" there's nothing misleading and no empty promises are made.
          You bring up a pretty important point here, and it's a distinction that many newbies tend to overlook. There's nothing wrong with making an income claim for yourself, because if it is true, then it can be independently verified and you'd have no cause for concern in using that figure in your sales copy. On the other hand, making a claim that some one else can easily replicate your success can get you into a lot of trouble, because you obviously have no control over what someone else does (or doesn't do) with the material that you teach.

          Unfortunately, many newbies do not see the difference in these two claims, and equate them to be the same thing. If they see an "idiot" (more often than not just a marketing facade/persona) claim that he's made an outrageous amount of money with a method/technique, then they make the mistaken inference that they can duplicate this success themselves - they're basically selling themselves on the notion that they can easily do it, without the seller explicitly saying so.

          Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    Yeah that's good to crack down on them all and it would be even better to start with ClickBank ... I have honest products waiting to Rock and Roll if that happens to take their place ;-)

    PS. Do you think ClickBank is laying an egg right now?
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  • Profile picture of the author kurttasche
    Thanks for this post. We all need to be careful how we represent our products.

    There are some newbies who are just getting into creating and selling their own product, who feel they need to fabricate testimonials and earnings to make sales.

    If you have no proof of earnings, that's fine. Don't fake it. There are many good products out there that don't have "earnings proof". Besides, proof of earnings isn't a good way to tell if a product is high quality or not anyway. Just because you make, say, $10,000 per month using your strategies, doesn't mean any of your customers will.

    To get testimonials, give a copy of your product to a few people and get their honest review before you release it to the public. But don't just give them out to anyone. I would pick atleast 1 expert in your niche, 1 with mediocre experience, and 1 newbie. This way, you get a full spectrum review of your product. Then, you can add some honest testimonials to your marketing efforts.
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  • Profile picture of the author OnlineMasterMind
    Originally Posted by Chris Kent View Post


    From a personal perspective, I hate having to compete against products with outrageous claims,
    At least your honest about your true intentions.

    However, with all due respect, I think you would find it a lot more productive focusing on how to improve your marketing than focusing on the competition and getting angry.

    In my experience, that's what top achievers tend to do
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  • Profile picture of the author nmh
    Not to be a downer but has anyone actually took action and questioned a WSO right on their WSO posting? That would TRULY help crack down on it here. Especially the more seasoned Warriors on here. You may think "what do I care, I can tell the difference b/n crap and good stuff" BUT if you are here to help and make this an even greater forum, then hammer them by just asking basic questions about what they are claiming IF it is really outrageous. Those that are genuine, won't have a problem and won't mind the questions at all. It will be the ones that don't answer or don't respond then you know something is going on that just might not be up to snuff.

    We can't leave it up to all the moderators b/c they can only police so much and don't want to hinder our interaction. We should take it upon ourselves to at least question what our instincts are telling us especially in the WSO area or it will definitely catch the eye of the FTC!
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by nmh View Post

      Not to be a downer but has anyone actually took action and questioned a WSO right on their WSO posting? That would TRULY help crack down on it here. Especially the more seasoned Warriors on here.

      Been there, done that... And other experienced warriors have as well...
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      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author Fraggler
    Surely people have enough initiative and common sense to just report the products that aren't delivering on what they are selling? If not to the Warrior Forum, at least to Paypal or what ever service is being used for product delivery.

    I'd like to think the moderators will know when serial offenders start popping up and they'll be taken care of. They can't do that without people reporting the products. But you can't expect them to act on something that might be bad.

    If you don't buy the product then you really can't comment just based on the hypey sales letter. How do you know their copy is just misdirected? Creating copy that sells is hard. I know. I am terrible at it. It is easier for the seller to go way over the top and at least get some people to buy. If they are telling porky-pies then let the moderators know and be more careful next time. If you are a buyer you are allowed to comment in the WSO thread. Let the other potential buyers know without going off your nut. Give an honest review.

    Most buyers will chuck up a stink when they get burnt by what they believe is a poor quality product that doesn't deliver on its promises. You don't need the FTC to protect you from being ripped off time and time again.

    People need to take some responsibility to how they react to buying poor products. All whinging does is get you attention and maybe have some people try and make you feel better. It doesn't help the forum cut the rot.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Harper
    I'm continually amazed at how many people believe that the only way to sell is to create some crappy product with minimal investment, then tell a bunch of lies in hopes of hooking a few suckers.

    Bleh. Who wants to live that way?

    Create something of value. Take the time to do it right and you'll be able to sleep at night.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      I always smile when people demand more "policing" of the wso section.

      Personally, I don't really care about what is being offered. I "police" the offers by not buying them.

      People need to take responsibilities for their purchasing habits. It is their decision if they want to buy the "push button make millions" product. The problem is people purchasing the same type of product over and over again and never being happy.

      I wonder why?

      Fool me once, shame on you... Fool me twice, well, I guess you deserve my money.

      You can't protect people from themselves.
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    OK you say "On the Warrior Forum everyone who buys a WSO has the opportunity to comment about the product or service. Good or bad."

    I do not believe this is so. Fact is, I believe that several warriors have been kicked out for disparaging a product or service. Perhaps I am wrong. I do not wish to name names.
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    • Profile picture of the author George Wright
      Originally Posted by seobro View Post

      OK you say "On the Warrior Forum everyone who buys a WSO has the opportunity to comment about the product or service. Good or bad."

      I do not believe this is so. Fact is, I believe that several warriors have been kicked out for disparaging a product or service. Perhaps I am wrong. I do not wish to name names.
      No one has been kicked off for Commenting Negatively on a product they purchased.

      Comments on the product are accepted, making it personal and bashing the "person" can get you banned.

      Bashing the product if you haven't bought it can get you banned also, especially if you persists when you are warned to stop commenting on a product you haven't purchased.

      George Wright, EDIT: I should have said the Negative comments on a purchased product should be in the WSO thread in question. Bringing your negativity to the Main Forum can also get you in trouble.
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  • Profile picture of the author chris187
    About time aswell, they are the scum of the earth they are not out to help anyone but themselves.
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    • Profile picture of the author tpw
      Originally Posted by chris187 View Post

      About time aswell, they are the scum of the earth they are not out to help anyone but themselves.

      Craigslist managers might view you exactly the same way...
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      Bill Platt, Oklahoma USA, PlattPublishing.com
      Publish Coloring Books for Profit (WSOTD 7-30-2015)
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  • Profile picture of the author Nithiyaah
    Great post and I hope all the warriors will read and clear their act as soon as possible :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author mahal788
    Wow! Thank God! It's about time they did something about those scammers.
    Everyone's always looking for legit ways to make money online, this will definitely help filter out the garbage from the gold.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Ten
    Nice! Don't fight the law. Be honest and be ethical. Yikes! Go get em, FTC!
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  • Profile picture of the author garamiller
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author rts2271
      In a truly free market, there is no need for a watchdog agency or regulation. The market itself is what drives success, outs scams and self regulates. The problem is we assume stupid people and their money should be protected. I am not advocating scamming by any means but if some dumbass hurts themselves because they leapt before looking or worse, bought into some pie in the sky BS good. Maybe they will think twice the next time.

      Instead, just when the common sense gland starts tingling and they realized that the 47$ product they bought isn't going to make them a dime because they are a dumbass still after hitting submit.

      Then the pain hits. The memory gets set and just when you would think, Good now they wont fall for it again cause they cant buy there Jerry Springer season 4 DVD now. They chargeback. And the next day they will repeat the process. Except it will be Season 5 after they get back from Walmart.

      The chargeback situation avalanched into strong armed refund robbery, even for goods and services merchants are out in direct relation to consumer dumbassery. It's also why I don't sell my own info products because if I have to give them their money back does that mean I can take a hammer to their head to get my information back?

      The FTC is just another crooked jack booted fed agency ran by government welfare leaches.
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  • Profile picture of the author AnnaHamer
    This is the best news I've heard all day! Thanks for sharing. I have a couple names I could recommend to the FTC
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgeReed
    This just makes it better for us folk who wont have to wade through rubbish WSOs to find something that delivers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tim_Hawksworth
      Did anyone else notice a common like between all these people and companies?

      They all refused to refund!

      We put refund policies in place to make sure our clients can evaluate the products, but by NOT refunding when requested they end up in a report like that one.
      Surely this means that Clickbank is in the clear ?

      Clickbank may have a load of hyped up c**p ( as well as some good stuff ) but at least you can get a refund easily enough through them.

      So I would think that put CB in an even stronger position doesn't it ?
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      • Profile picture of the author RosalindG
        Originally Posted by Tim_Hawksworth View Post

        Surely this means that Clickbank is in the clear ?

        Clickbank may have a load of hyped up c**p ( as well as some good stuff ) but at least you can get a refund easily enough through them.

        So I would think that put CB in an even stronger position doesn't it ?
        Hi Tim,

        In response to the FTC crackdown, Alex Moore from Clickbank sent out an email yesterday with a list of guidelines for vendors, which included:

        1) don't overstate earnings potential
        2) don't make it look like it's super easy to earn money
        3) no false scarcity claims (I just wrote a long post about this in response to Commission Hijack's 'only 36 copies' left b.s.)
        4) for upsells, the first product must have value (wow! what a concept)

        There were more.

        As a long-time Clickbank vendor, I can only hope this means that they're going to start taking a good hard look at products to make sure that they are on the up and up before listing them in the Marketplace.

        Cheers,
        Ros
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  • Profile picture of the author gyar29
    I too find distasteful the number of offers available that promise the ridiculous, but I look upon the government's increased involvement in our industry with just a bit of trepidation.

    When our government decides it is their job to protect those too stupid, to gullible, or to ignorant to protect themselves, they frequently fish for problems by throwing out a huge net, catching everything available, then sorting through the catch to pick out the "fish" they were hoping to catch.

    Unfortunately, that net can catch fish that they were not targeting.

    Even when thrown back, those fish always pay a price.

    In our criminal court system there is (suppose to be) a presumption of innocence. However, during the investigation there is a presumption of guilt. The investigator's job is not to prove you innocent, it is to prove you guilty. And you must be guilty because they are investigating you.

    What may be even worse for a business is the presumption of guilt the public has just by the fact that your business is being investigated.

    Proving that you are not guilty can ruin your life. The financial cost can bankrupt you and your business. The cost to your reputation can ruin you. The cost to your family can be devastating.

    And once they have decided to throw you back, you have no recourse to get back all that you have lost.

    So I for one will wait to see how all this pans out. Hopefully, the governments increased focus on our industry will be a positive step to increasing the public's confidence in our industry.

    But I doubt it.
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    • Profile picture of the author psresearch
      I seriously doubt the FTC would even REMOTELY have any serious issues with the Warrior Forum - for many of the reasons already stated. I'm not saying there isn't fraud going on (I don't know, but on a site/marketplace this big & popular, it's just the odds that it will happen).

      But here's why I think they wouldn't be interested:

      1) It's marketers marketing to OTHER marketers much of the time - NOT marketers marketing to a vulnerable population like most of the bizop scams the FTC goes after.
      2) Even if someone IS a newbie - the WSO section has a FEEDBACK mechanism which allows buyers to get information (sure some of that can be faked & compensated reviews probably aren't disclosed sometimes, but my GUESS is that actually doesn't go on that much - and even if/when it does there are enough fair reviews).
      3) Most WSO sellers will refund if there's a problem
      4) Most WSO's are really inexpensive

      I can't really see how the FTC would consider the Warrior Forum a "problem spot".
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    • Profile picture of the author psresearch
      Originally Posted by gyar29 View Post


      When our government decides it is their job to protect those too stupid, to gullible, or to ignorant to protect themselves, they frequently fish for problems by throwing out a huge net, catching everything available, then sorting through the catch to pick out the "fish" they were hoping to catch.
      Actually, when it comes to the FTC, the SEC, and the like they typically DON'T do that. They typically ONLY go after the worst companies targeting the most vulnerable populations.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rough Outline
    Great to see this and like I said in a thread I started only a few days ago. Regulation is coming to the internet marketing world.

    Though this is operation, in principle, will only be good. I can see a lot of internet marketers who are honest and ethical being caught up in it too.
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  • Profile picture of the author WebRank1
    I hope they crack down really hard. I mean really hard. That would clear up a lot of BS products and product creators.
    I just hope they think this through, I would hate to see them targeting the wrong people or taking the first step in this and not following through.
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  • Profile picture of the author PPC-Coach
    I hope they do crack down on all those b.s. programs and anything starts its sales pitch with "Make $xxx,xxx overnight while sleeping".
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    You do realize these popcorn threads hurt the traffic in the wso section. So wrap it up already so us vendors can get back to work!

    But coming from someone who is running several successful wso threads I have a bit of advice to offer other vendors. It is far better to sell your services for cheaper than you want to in exchange for verifiable testimonials posted on your thread. That way you will never once have to over inflate income stats or the effectiveness of your service. Once you get enough testimonials (hundreds) you simply reduce your sales copy on the thread and let your testimonials do the selling for you.

    The less copy you have on your thread the less chance you will add something the FTC could take offense to. In copy less is always more.
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