I Just Paid $40 For 487 Words

Wow! I'm a writer and I wish I could get clients like you guys!

I just want to share that when I started out writing for people online, I charged ridiculously low rates (in the range of around $3-4) for 500-word articles. This was because being new, I just wanted to get a hold of that first client and get a taste of those first few dollars rolling into my shiny new paypal account. It was also tough competition in the other forum where I started promoting my services, where people charged as low as $1 per article. Eventually, I landed a client who ordered 10 articles at $3.50 apiece. I churned the articles out for 13 hours (not straight) in a single day. Too bad that client didn't actually pay me (another lesson learned).

I consider myself to be a pretty decent writer (at least worth more than $3-4 per 500-words!), but I spent the first few weeks charging really low for my services because 1.) I just didn't know any better and 2.) Where I come from, the minimum wage is around $10 per day. This meant that I just had to write 3 or 4 $5 articles a day to make a decent living.

My point is: Not everyone who charges $4 or even $7 per article is bound to give you crap. There are a few out there who can provide good quality. It's really a trial-and-error thing until you get that good, solid long-term writer who provides you the best quality for your money. And I do agree with taking care of your writers financially (pay raise?). I have actually let go of would-have-been long-term clients because other higher-paying opportunities have presented themselves.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by jglopez

My point is: Not everyone who charges $4 or even $7 per article is bound to give you crap.

We understand that, but we also understand that if you are creating really good articles for $4 or $7 an article, then you are the exception rather than the rule.

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jglopez

14 years ago

That could be true

I like what you linked to in your previous post. I noticed that there aren't really any exact "tips" on how to create a good article. I agree with this fully - there are no set rules when trying to reach out (emotionally or otherwise) to your readers. I guess what really matters is the underlying context, on the part of the writer, to really provide great value to the readers and make the 5 minutes or so of reading your article more than worth their time.

AND I'm taking your advice of stopping for a second look any time I find myself impressed by an article or getting the urge to share it! Thank you for that.

Originally Posted by tpw

We understand that, but we also understand that if you are creating really good articles for $4 or $7 an article, then you are the exception rather than the rule.

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myob

14 years ago

I require all my writers to read and use "The Associated Press Stylebook", since we syndicate for both online and offline publications. Using this "gold standard of article writing" is a road map to clean and concise writing, and opens many doors of opportunity.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by myob

I require all my writers to read and use "The Associated Press Stylebook", since we syndicate for both online and offline publications. Using this "gold standard of article writing" is a road map to clean and concise writing, and opens many doors of opportunity.

That's not a bad suggestion, Paul.

However, any good stylebook will help. The key is to consistently follow the guidelines of whatever stylebook you choose.

But...that points out something interesting, in my opinion. IF there are hard and fast, "unbreakable" rules of English, then shouldn't there really be a need for ONE stylebook? Or, wouldn't they ALL give the same advice? The fact that they don't all agree 100% shows just how flexible English can be.

All the best,
Michael

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myob

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

That's not a bad suggestion, Paul.

However, any good stylebook will help. The key is to consistently follow the guidelines of whatever stylebook you choose.

But...that points out something interesting, in my opinion. IF there are hard and fast, "unbreakable" rules of English, then shouldn't there really be a need for ONE stylebook? Or, wouldn't they ALL give the same advice? The fact that they don't all agree 100% shows just how flexible English can be.

All the best,
Michael

Agreed. However regarding article writing, there are standards of spelling, grammar, structure, terminology, etc that are widely expected. These are IMO most adequately covered in the "Associated Press Stylebook". My staff writers have this foundation, and our articles are quite readily accepted in newspapers, magazines, trade journals (all of which have online editions), as well as ezine publishers and blogs. In journalists' terms, it is the "gold standard", and in a sense may even seem rigorous. But, it has worked extremely well for me for years in honing my writers' skills and getting into some of the most hotly competitive niches.

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Lyanna

14 years ago

Originally Posted by myob

Agreed. However regarding article writing, there are standards of spelling, grammar, structure, terminology, etc that are widely expected. These are IMO most adequately covered in the "Associated Press Stylebook".

News article writing, you mean? I don't see these standards being applied to a lot of IM article marketing.

I used to work as an editorial assistant, but in the features section (rules about news reports are much more rigid). Whenever there was a dispute about something we always referred to the AP guide.

Mostly it was problems with proper abbreviations and numbers like this:

"10 percent" or "ten percent" or "10 %"

(Answer is 10 percent.)

However, I would say that a good freelance writer doesn't really need to use the AP style for most kinds of jobs you find on the internet.

One objective measurement you can use to evaluate informative articles is the amount of "fluff" or padding that it has.

Unfortunately it seems that some clients actually want a lot of meaningless words strung together. One person sent me a fluff article and asked me to make 100 similar articles. It was literally similar keyword phrases repeated over and over again with other words like "the best" "it is good to use" "is very attractive" "will improve the value" etc.

*shudders*

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myob

14 years ago

@Lyanna

It appears you have missed my point completely, as well as from the OP:

...Even well written $4 articles (and yeah, I know there are some out there) often lack any real substance. They're just lifeless sentences strung together to fill a page. They don't inspire your site visitors. They don't CONVERT, in other words. That's what most new people don't understand. The words on a page need to achieve a goal that helps you. It's not enough to fill the page.

That's why $40 is a pittance for quality content that I know will convert.

It shouldn't take much logic to realize that it's far more profitable to write for a targeted audience rather than for search engines. Search engines don't buy anything; people do. This concept seems so very difficult to grasp despite what the most successful writers have said regarding it. Wide distribution of quality articles to targeted audiences should be the primary focus, and backlinks are incidental to optimized keywords without distracting from the article.

The upshot is I don't write for clients nor search engines. Using the highest potential of "article marketing", I write articles for my targeted audiences, and then market these articles to the targeted outlets where they will be read. Of course, what I mean is that my writers are writing for me in my style and vision. These markets are extremely competitive (as well as being very lucrative), and my targeted buyers read specific trade journals, magazines, newspapers, etc. And these offline publications also have online components which of course further magnifies exposure. By following the guidelines in the Associated Press Stylebook, editors almost readily accept my articles into these publications.

So is syndicating articles in targeted publications worth the effort over merely writing for the search engines? For me the answer is a resounding yes. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, each article can be expected to generate an average monthly revenue of $3,000 - $7,000. And this has nothing to do with SEO; none of my sites rank anywhere near even the top 10,000. It's all real live eyeballs reading these articles directly, which converts to high quality traffic. This is indeed "article marketing" at its finest.

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Lyanna

14 years ago

It appears you have missed my point completely, as well as from the OP:

I wasn't commenting on your "point" just the specific lines that I quoted. In case you didn't get what I was saying, I disapprove of the people that ask for silly articles like the one I mentioned.

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NicheMayhem

14 years ago

lol, this forum is always an entertaining place to spend a few minutes before I start my day.

Regardless of how many times this topic is discussed (as with many others), there are always people who show up on both sides of the fence. Truth is, the existence of controversy specific to this context is a testament to why Internet Marketing is such a massive money making opportunity for those of us who have the will, the wit and the never say never attitude to stick it out and make it happen. There is a never ending stream of people who simply don't get it...yet.

To me it is simple, you get what you put in. This relates to not only money but more importantly effort, if only more people could adapt their mindset.

Only experience and success will guide you towards realizing how valuable an article is in relation to it's price tag, this is why there are and always will be so many $2 article service providers out there. Get some real traction in this business and you will completely understand why paying $40 for a 500 word article is a no brainer, even a set standard for your business and factored into your budget. However, while you poke around at the bottom floor, you just don't and probably won't get it...yet.

In regards to Google rearranging things to give more traction to quality content, I could not be happier and feel they were right to do it. I would even go so far as to say they needed to do it a long time ago and it is still going to take a long LONG time to weed out all the pure rubbish which lies at the top spot for many searches. It is unfortunate really and a great deal of the pure crap content out there is directly due to inexperienced, underpaid, lazy, spin happy writers who made a quick buck. If only all writers charged $40, just think how quickly the content market would shift towards quality and how many so called "writers" would end up packing it in with no returning customers.

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paulie888

14 years ago

Originally Posted by NicheMayhem

lol, this forum is always an entertaining place to spend a few minutes before I start my day.

Regardless of how many times this topic is discussed (as with many others), there are always people who show up on both sides of the fence. Truth is, the existence of controversy specific to this context is a testament to why Internet Marketing is such a massive money making opportunity for those of us who have the will, the wit and the never say never attitude to stick it out and make it happen. There is a never ending stream of people who simply don't get it...yet.

To me it is simple, you get what you put in. This relates to not only money but more importantly effort, if only more people could adapt their mindset.

Only experience and success will guide you towards realizing how valuable an article is in relation to it's price tag, this is why there are and always will be so many $2 article service providers out there. Get some real traction in this business and you will completely understand why paying $40 for a 500 word article is a no brainer, even a set standard for your business and factored into your budget. However, while you poke around at the bottom floor, you just don't and probably won't get it...yet.

In regards to Google rearranging things to give more traction to quality content, I could not be happier and feel they were right to do it. I would even go so far as to say they needed to do it a long time ago and it is still going to take a long LONG time to weed out all the pure rubbish which lies at the top spot for many searches. It is unfortunate really and a great deal of the pure crap content out there is directly due to inexperienced, underpaid, lazy, spin happy writers who made a quick buck. If only all writers charged $40, just think how quickly the content market would shift towards quality and how many so called "writers" would end up packing it in with no returning customers.

This was a long time coming, but I don't think that for one second anyone was really surprised about the update. Things had to be cleaned up, since there were crappy articles that were showing up on Google that had absolutely no business being there.

Look at it from Google's perspective - it reflects really badly on them if they display first page content that looks like automated, spun crap. It would greatly damage their reputation, and perhaps open the door for their competitors to retaliate. Google is merely cleaning things up to offer a better user experience, which is what people using its search engine expect.

Anything that detracts from the overall good user experience will be either deleted or minimized, and this is exactly what's happening to the crappy articles at EZA and other article directories that have been showing up on the first page of Google.

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peter gibson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

And I consider that a BARGAIN! The writer is a friend of mine and he's very good. But my point here is two-fold...

You have to know what to do with content so that the cost to have it written is an investment, not a true cost.
Work with people you know you can trust. The only way to get to that point is to engage with people. Don't be a hermit.

When you see a thread about getting $4 articles, it's usually someone pretty new. They don't get that those cheap articles are usually crap that has to be edited. That takes time. Time = money.

Even well written $4 articles (and yeah, I know there are some out there) often lack any real substance. They're just lifeless sentences strung together to fill a page. They don't inspire your site visitors. They don't CONVERT, in other words. That's what most new people don't understand. The words on a page need to achieve a goal that helps you. It's not enough to fill the page.

That's why $40 is a pittance for quality content that I know will convert.

John

Awesome John, and I hope to see more threads like this soon, with the google update giving quality writing a much needed boost. I regularly pay between 25 and 40.00 for articles of roughly the same length. I live or die by good writing. And you're absolutely right. It's a worthwhile investment. Cheap cannon fodder articles have always been completely useless - if not counter productive to my online business.

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Matt Morgan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

That's why $40 is a pittance for quality content that I know will convert.

John

Loads of newbies reading this will be thinking 'what a rip of' lol but..

Only when you realise the true value of quality do you realise that $40 actually is a pittance for quality content, especially if you are confident that it converts.

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CraigRC

14 years ago

You mean you have to actually pay writers decent compensation to get content that isn't cliche-filled tripe loaded with heavy-handed amateur-hour sales tactics??

What is the world coming to??

Nice John, great post that helps the board understand why someone would want to pay well for writing that will monetize itself several times over.

Totally agree...and my clients do as well.

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tpw

14 years ago

To further emphasize the point...

If a person lands on your website and finds you unable to string interesting sentences together, why would those folks ever consider you worthy of their dollars?

Won't people just think that if you are willing to give them crap content on your website or in your promotional materials that you would be equally willing to give them crap products and services for their hard earned money?

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Flamboyantegg

14 years ago

I entirely agree that quality is necessary and I would definitely pay a premium for high quality content, however my question is;

What exactly IS high quality content?

By what measure or metric can I tell whether a piece of writing or a writer is worth paying premium for?

I'm not asking for an absolute measure to determine the $$$ worth of individual English sentences/paragraphs/articles, I don't think it even practically possible (theoretically perhaps).

... BUT how do you (the IM community) determine which writer is worth the premium costs and which to give a wide berth?

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CraigRC

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Flamboyantegg

I entirely agree that quality is necessary and I would definitely pay a premium for high quality content, however my question is;

What exactly IS high quality content?

By what measure or metric can I tell whether a piece of writing or a writer is worth paying premium for?

I'm not asking for an absolute measure to determine the $$$ worth of individual English sentences/paragraphs/articles, I don't think it even practically possible (theoretically perhaps).

... BUT how do you (the IM community) determine which writer is worth the premium costs and which to give a wide berth?

1. What is your goal?

Selling the click at the bottom? Educating your existing membership on a topic to keep them enrolled? Boosting your blog ranking? Promoting a product review for a sale?

etc. etc.

If you know the goal of the content in advance, then you know how to evaluate the effectiveness of the writer's work once you get it.

That's the difference really between copywriting, and writing. One is technically sound for grammar, punctuation, and structure, while the other motivates the reader to take whatever action the author intends.

I'm reminded of Attorney General Ed Meese's unintentionally funny quip when asked to define just what exactly pornography is. To which he replied:

"I know it when I see it".

Good writing is good writing because it accomplishes your goal...whatever that may be.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Flamboyantegg

I entirely agree that quality is necessary and I would definitely pay a premium for high quality content, however my question is;

What exactly IS high quality content?

By what measure or metric can I tell whether a piece of writing or a writer is worth paying premium for?

I'm not asking for an absolute measure to determine the $$$ worth of individual English sentences/paragraphs/articles, I don't think it even practically possible (theoretically perhaps).

... BUT how do you (the IM community) determine which writer is worth the premium costs and which to give a wide berth?

TimG summarized the answer to your question eloquently in another thread, and in only one sentence.

Originally Posted by TimG

In my opinion, that is what the perfect article for syndication would look like because it did it's job by providing value and keeping me engaged.

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SeanIM

14 years ago

Can the writer 'speak' to the reader in conversational English that is mostly grammatically correct (aka engage like a motha) and can:

state the problem
agitate it
discredit other solutions
...que the music, part the clouds and have me show up on a pretty white horse

Can the writer lob truth torpedoes, oh snap...sorry that residue must be stuck on this keyboard.

S

Originally Posted by Flamboyantegg

I entirely agree that quality is necessary and I would definitely pay a premium for high quality content, however my question is;

What exactly IS high quality content?

By what measure or metric can I tell whether a piece of writing or a writer is worth paying premium for?

I'm not asking for an absolute measure to determine the $$$ worth of individual English sentences/paragraphs/articles, I don't think it even practically possible (theoretically perhaps).

... BUT how do you (the IM community) determine which writer is worth the premium costs and which to give a wide berth?

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joymarino

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Flamboyantegg

I entirely agree that quality is necessary and I would definitely pay a premium for high quality content, however my question is;

What exactly IS high quality content?

By what measure or metric can I tell whether a piece of writing or a writer is worth paying premium for?

I'm not asking for an absolute measure to determine the $$$ worth of individual English sentences/paragraphs/articles, I don't think it even practically possible (theoretically perhaps).

... BUT how do you (the IM community) determine which writer is worth the premium costs and which to give a wide berth?

Perhaps word-of-mouth referrals is best. If someone, like the OP, finds a reliable source that has given him quality for a bargain, then others of us would feel confident in purchasing through that person....???

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Gail Ogden

14 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

To further emphasize the point...

If a person lands on your website and finds you unable to string interesting sentences together, why would those folks ever consider you worthy of their dollars?

Won't people just think that if you are willing to give them crap content on your website or in your promotional materials that you would be equally willing to give them crap products and services for their hard earned money?

Here! Here!

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Something that a lot of people don't seem to grasp is that you pay ONCE for the content to be written. That's it. Let's say it's a page for your niche site. I pay $40 one time to have it created. Then I start sending traffic to it. Let's say it's a page about acne and I've chosen a Clickbank product to monetize the page. I might earn $25 for every sale of that product, which I link to in the sidebar and in the content through text links.

How many sales do I need to be profitable? 2.

Had I paid $4 for some blah content, I might never make even one sale from that page. In fact, I bet many who are reading this and have paid that small price for content know that feeling very well.

So who really paid too much for their content?

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paulie888

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Something that a lot of people don't seem to grasp is that you pay ONCE for the content to be written. That's it. Let's say it's a page for your niche site. I pay $40 one time to have it created. Then I start sending traffic to it. Let's say it's a page about acne and I've chosen a Clickbank product to monetize the page. I might earn $25 for every sale of that product, which I link to in the sidebar and in the content through text links.

How many sales do I need to be profitable? 2.

Had I paid $4 for some blah content, I might never make even one sale from that page. In fact, I bet many who are reading this and have paid that small price for content know that feeling very well.

So who really paid too much for their content?

John, you've hit the nail squarely on the head here. People (newbies especially) tend to get too preoccupied with the cost of articles and other things in IM, when they really should be considering its ROI.

You can't just define something as "expensive" or "cheap" when you're in business, ultimately what matters is its return on investment. Something can be outrageously expensive in monetary terms, but provide an incredible ROI.

For example, let's take salesletters. Many people might consider a $10k salesletter outrageous, but if it results in even a 10% higher conversion rate for a high-ticket $2,000 product, you'd sell 110 products instead of 100, resulting in $20,000 extra being made - that's a 100% ROI on your $10k salesletter. Suddenly your $10k salesletter looks like a really smart investment, doesn't it?

Paul

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Black Hat Cat

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Something that a lot of people don't seem to grasp is that you pay ONCE for the content to be written. That's it. Let's say it's a page for your niche site. I pay $40 one time to have it created. Then I start sending traffic to it. Let's say it's a page about acne and I've chosen a Clickbank product to monetize the page. I might earn $25 for every sale of that product, which I link to in the sidebar and in the content through text links.

How many sales do I need to be profitable? 2.

Had I paid $4 for some blah content, I might never make even one sale from that page. In fact, I bet many who are reading this and have paid that small price for content know that feeling very well.

So who really paid too much for their content?

You might never make even one sale from a $40 article either, in which case you would be the one who paid too much for their content.

It's all relative, folks. There's no guarantee a $40 article will produce anything, nor is there any guarantee a $4 article will produce nothing. I guarantee you there's a lot of crap being produced at both ends of the spectrum.

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peter gibson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

You might never make even one sale from a $40 article either, in which case you would be the one who paid too much for their content.

It's all relative, folks. There's no guarantee a $40 article will produce anything, nor is there any guarantee a $4 article will produce nothing. I guarantee you there's a lot of crap being produced at both ends of the spectrum.

Heya BHC,

Totally agree, but on the other hand I always found it best to err on the side of quality, rather than to save a few bucks. I do agree though, I went through a swahoo of writers, from all ends of the price spectrum. I can say this, once I found a genuine black belt I make sure she gets paid what she's worth every time. When she asks for $X.00 I give her $X + $10.00. Don't want the competitors scooping her up

.

As an addition to what John is saying, here's a case study from way back... When I finally hired Irene I had her very first article (paid about 35.00) get me over 1000 backlinks when other webmasters saw it and picked it clean from EZA. And that article is still kicking a$$ almost 2 years later.

Ever since that time her stuff has been like gold to me. The ROI on that one article alone was so outstanding I can't begin to figure it out. Clicks, leads, backlinks, all the things most warriors salivate over and bang their heads looking to grab, it came from one 35.00 article.

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

John, that IS a bargain cause you couldn't get 487 words out of me for 40
bucks if you sent me a harem of naked women and a bottle of Jack Daniels.

Personally, I would pay $500 for a 500 word article if I knew it was going to
bring me in 5 figures.

Fortunately, being the incredible writer that I am (not to mention modest)
I don't have to.

PS - Throw in a night in Vegas and I might consider it.

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celente

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

John, that IS a bargain cause you couldn't get 487 words out of me for 40
bucks if you sent me a harem of naked women and a bottle of Jack Daniels.

Personally, I would pay $500 for a 500 word article if I knew it was going to
bring me in 5 figures.

Fortunately, being the incredible writer that I am (not to mention modest)
I don't have to.

PS - Throw in a night in Vegas and I might consider it.

Dude, you are a tad weird...LOL.

If you are a great writer, and give great content like you say you do, maybe you should read what you just wrote and click the edit button....LOL

Just saying!

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notrichyet

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

You might never make even one sale from a $40 article either, in which case you would be the one who paid too much for their content.

It's all relative, folks. There's no guarantee a $40 article will produce anything, nor is there any guarantee a $4 article will produce nothing. I guarantee you there's a lot of crap being produced at both ends of the spectrum.

I think this is very true, there's good and bad in anything. As someone who writes content for others, I'm not going to research your niche for you, but I do enough research to try and get perspective on how the client would like to come across to potential customers. I do this by speaking to the pain points that a particular product might resolve for someone and it's done in a conversational style. What I've noticed is that most people are too focused on ranking the article without enough emphasis being given to using the article to convert. An article will do you no good if it's on the first page and getting 100's of views per day if you're not relating to and empathizing with the reader.

At the end of the day, all I can do is make recommendations, but ultimately, if the client insists on loading it up with keywords then the article isn't going to get them the results they want and frankly is a waste of money. It wouldn't matter if they paid $2 or $200, they would have paid too much..

Mary

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

You might never make even one sale from a $40 article either, in which case you would be the one who paid too much for their content.

It's all relative, folks. There's no guarantee a $40 article will produce anything, nor is there any guarantee a $4 article will produce nothing. I guarantee you there's a lot of crap being produced at both ends of the spectrum.

Always the contrarian. I wonder if you do anything else? Rhetorical question... we know the answer.

I never risk $40 when I pay that for an article or page of content. Never. I test and I know what works. It's always an investment. This is what people like you don't get... I'm guessing because you don't make much money online, Black Hat Cat. When you know what you're doing, $40 is always an investment with a guaranteed ROI.

Now, run along and keep playing in the shallow end of the pool. You amuse me. You really do. God love ya!

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Always the contrarian. I wonder if you do anything else? Rhetorical question... we know the answer.

I never risk $40 when I pay that for an article or page of content. Never. I test and I know what works. It's always an investment. This is what people like you don't get... I'm guessing because you don't make much money online, Black Hat Cat. When you know what you're doing, $40 is always an investment with a guaranteed ROI.

Now, run along and keep playing in the shallow end of the pool. You amuse me. You really do. God love ya!

John, look up forum troll in the dictionary and you'll...oh never mind.

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wtatlas

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

You might never make even one sale from a $40 article either, in which case you would be the one who paid too much for their content.

It's all relative, folks. There's no guarantee a $40 article will produce anything, nor is there any guarantee a $4 article will produce nothing. I guarantee you there's a lot of crap being produced at both ends of the spectrum.

You might enter a car race driving a Ferrari or you could enter driving a VW Beetle. The Ferrari might not win but you'd have a hell of a better chance in it than in the Beetle.

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JSHous

14 years ago

It validates the old addage that you get what you pay for. Buy junk, get junk.

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BenoitT

14 years ago

Why paying for articles when you can pay someone to write every week and sign his name at the end. They are way more involved that way and they will be happy to write great content for you.

Have a great relationship with your writer, give him some recognition and he will give you $150 articles for $40. You can do the same thing with $10. Don't pay a writer $5 otherwise you will not be seen as a premium employer and it is hard to have a good relationship.

Win-win situation, isn't great?

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celente

14 years ago

Originally Posted by BenoitT

or you.

Have a great relationship with your writer, give him some recognition and he will give you $150 articles for $40. You can do the same thing with $10. Don't pay a writer $5 otherwise you will not be seen as a premium employer and it is hard to have a good relationship.

Win-win situation, isn't great?

I concur.

When I started looking for an article writer you can even get a free one as a trial. They know they have to do good to impress you, but after the free one, they normally give you crappy ones.

It all comes down to trial and error, trial and error....It took me ages to find a good article writer, but after that you have a build a good relationship and trust. Then the great work comes.

I would not be worried about paying a $40 fee, because once you get it out there into cyberspace there are so many things that could happen, and it could even get massive coverage on a big traffic media outage. That has happened to me. That brings in massive traffic and sales.

But it all came down building a relationship with your writers. That is a crucial part of this whole process. I am sure John would agree.

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sellerscompanion 14 years ago

I am so glad to see you say this too because, as a trained writer (Journalist), I know that people don't seem to understand that quality writers are hard to find. I work a lot on Elance and thankfully most of my clients there are more than happy to pay $20-30 per article without even blinking an eye. With the changes at Google, I think it makes even more sense that people invest in the longterm success of their websites by providing exactly what Google is opening saying that it wants.

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nathan58 14 years ago

Firstly, You must be decided that you need of quality or affordable price.
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imintern 14 years ago

I have $5 Articles on my site and I have $15-$20 Articles as well. Some $5 articles are better than $20 articles. Often writers of the $5 articles are talented but they are fresh or may be they are not good at marketing their writing skills ... I just happen to find them.

Interestingly, it's hard to determine which content sales good as both sale almost alike. Sometimes the cheap sales better and sometimes the expensive.

I order for $5 articles more (much more actually) than $15 or $20 articles. and will probably continue to do that until I see a massive drop in quality. By quality I mean the quality of information that I provide through my site. Accurate information is most important to me and if the writers can produce that with reasonably decent quality of writing (language and grammar) I won't complain.

I am as happy as the OP to have 500 words articles written for $5 since I think my articles aren't bad either especially in terms of SEO and conversion. But that's me.
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lotsofsnow

14 years ago

Absolutely correct, John.

If the quality is low you might make a few accidental sales. But if you have excellent quality, your site will grow organically as your visitors will recommend your site.

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Biggy Fat

14 years ago

IMO, not worth it. Not a person on Earth can string together a series of words that would be worth $40 as good as a person on Earth that can string together a series of words that would be worth $4.

But hey, to each his own.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Biggy Fat

IMO, not worth it. Not a person on Earth can string together a series of words that would be worth $40 as good as a person on Earth that can string together a series of words that would be worth $4.

But hey, to each his own.

I guess you totally missed the point of the original post...

If a $40 article can generate sales in excess of what you spent to buy the article, then the endeavor would be profitable...

And isn't that the reason we run an online business -- to make a profit?

I have written articles that have generated sales in the four- and five-figures.

If I had written an article for you that generated $10,000 in sales, are you saying that what I have written is still not worth at least $40 to you?

If you said yes to that question, I bet you would have really **** a log to realize that I was charging more than $100 to write most of those articles...

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Dave Rodman

Banned 14 years ago

Why not just just make 2 stickied posts...one says "I'm FOR paying more for articles" and another that says "I'm against paying high prices for articles" and then just call it a day.

Because at this point, the entire argument is just spun content.

It's one thing if someone just poses the question, then it's kinda hard to not pick a side and offer your opinion.

But seriously what's the point of starting another thread to make the point for YOUR side.

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Kim Standerline 14 years ago

I guess because this is a discussion board the OP wanted to have a discussion about whether it's worth paying writers what they are worth!

Kim

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

But seriously what's the point of starting another thread to make the point for YOUR side.
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Ken Leatherman

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

Why not just just make 2 stickied posts...one says "I'm FOR paying more for articles" and another that says "I'm against paying high prices for articles" and then just call it a day.

Because at this point, the entire argument is just spun content.

It's one thing if someone just poses the question, then it's kinda hard to not pick a side and offer your opinion.

But seriously what's the point of starting another thread to make the point for YOUR side.

Part of the purpose of any thread, regardless of subject, is to help educate the members of the WF and the general public, when they find the thread on Google or other SE's. Many of these folks are just beginning to utilize the services of writers and really have no idea how to evaluate their style of writing.

Nor do they understand there are many different types of writing that serve a specific action. And invariably each of the styles could cost more, either in time or money, to achieve what you want.

As I read your post it appears to me you have missed the entire point of the OP and others that are contributing their thoughts to this thread. Dave your belittling of the topic, or at least the way you wrote it, serves no valid point; so according to you, your post did not need to be made. :p

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Dave Rodman

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken Leatherman

Part of the purpose of any thread, regardless of subject, is to help educate the members of the WF and the general public, when they find the thread on Google or other SE's. Many of these folks are just beginning to utilize the services of writers and really have no idea how to evaluate their style of writing.

Nor do they understand there are many different types of writing that serve a specific action. And invariably each of the styles could cost more, either in time or money, to achieve what you want.

As I read your post it appears to me you have missed the entire point of the OP and others that are contributing their thoughts to this thread. Dave your belittling of the topic, or at least the way you wrote it, serves no valid point; so according to you, your post did not need to be made. :p

Ken

The Old Geezer

I'm trying to help out the forum so everyone can save their time arguing about an issue that comes up daily. The way I look at it, I'm helping warriors become more productive.

Maybe it's just cause there are so many writers in the WF. I just can't believe how much this topic is discussed here.

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Goin Green

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Biggy Fat

IMO, not worth it. Not a person on Earth can string together a series of words that would be worth $40 as good as a person on Earth that can string together a series of words that would be worth $4.

But hey, to each his own.

Agreed, also I believe it depends on what the content is being used for..

Sales? Indexing?

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Goin Green

Agreed (about content not ever being worth $40 for 500 words), also I believe it depends on what the content is being used for..

Sales? Indexing?

I don't know how many different ways to explain this I can come up with, but I'll try again...

Find me a $5 article writer who can create a page of content that does all of the following, and I'll hire them and give them health benefits:

Pushes the right emotional buttons in visitors to turn a relatively high % of them into buyers.
Gives a depth of knowledge beyond the usual page of content so it builds my site's status as an authority on the topic - without being boring or pedantic. That is, teaches without sacrificing humor or "personality."
Creates a sense of trust between reader and author.

Know any $5/500-word writers who can do all of that? Me either.

What I just explained (my needs in a page of content) is what separates you (the novice) from me (15 years of experience). No offense... I was where you are too a few years ago. But when you get that your content has a job to do and that it's actually multi-faceted, you then understand that you just aren't going to get your needs met by an amateur writer who asks for a penny per word.

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Goin Green

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

I don't know how many different ways to explain this I can come up with, but I'll try again...

Find me a $5 article writer who can create a page of content that does all of the following, and I'll hire them and give them health benefits:

Pushes the right emotional buttons in visitors to turn a relatively high % of them into buyers.
Gives a depth of knowledge beyond the usual page of content so it builds my site's status as an authority on the topic - without being boring or pedantic. That is, teaches without sacrificing humor or "personality."
Creates a sense of trust between reader and author.

Know any $5/500-word writers who can do all of that? Me either.

What I just explained (my needs in a page of content) is what separates you (the novice) from me (15 years of experience). No offense... I was where you are too a few years ago. But when you get that your content has a job to do and that it's actually multi-faceted, you then understand that you just aren't going to get your needs met by an amateur writer who asks for a penny per word.

None taken..I was basing my post more on content and how you apply it..

In your market, the $40 could have been more than a worthwile investment for you..

Those are your NEEDS not ever IM's.....

Im a novice because I just signed up for the forum? Lol..your allegations are ill prepared...I was spamming blogger when you were writting articles...

No Offense

Anyways it was a good read, I was just trying to state that "content" can be used in different instances within IM.. I remember when I was in highschool making $500 a day auto sitting in class, and I had 4 images on an unrelated topic with adsense..Where are my 50 dollar articles? Do I need to spur emotion to have someone click my ad? Was I trying to sell them something? Was I trying to build my sites status and authority...No...was i making money yes..isn't that all what were here to do?

Or lets review the registry cleaner market...hmmm how much did you make using your 40 dollar articles?

Heard alot of money was made using review pages

..scare tactic..etc..a monkey could have written my articles..

Markets are different, content changes, tactics change.

Google makes all the money..

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Sandra Martinez

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Goin Green

None taken..I was basing my post more on content and how you apply it..

In your market, the $40 could have been more than a worthwile investment for you..

Those are your NEEDS not ever IM's.....

Im a novice because I just signed up for the forum? Lol..your allegations are ill prepared...I was spamming blogger when you were writting articles...

No Offense

Anyways it was a good read, I was just trying to state that "content" can be used in different instances within IM.. I remember when I was in highschool making $500 a day auto sitting in class, and I had 4 images on an unrelated topic with adsense..Where are my 50 dollar articles? Do I need to spur emotion to have someone click my ad? Was I trying to sell them something? Was I trying to build my sites status and authority...No...was i making money yes..isn't that all what were here to do?

Or lets review the registry cleaner market...hmmm how much did you make using your 40 dollar articles?

Heard alot of money was made using review pages

..scare tactic..etc..a monkey could have written my articles..

Markets are different, content changes, tactics change.

Google makes all the money..

you build your business on a different frame than John, for what it looks.

when you enter a market, are you planning on a sustainable business or use "grab it while it last" strategies?

your business is probably sustainable if you play offence and defense well, and have exit strategies in place. But are your markets businesses on themselves?

I have seen the game you play in action and it works. There is also fear all the time, knowing that the free lunch will end sooner than later. or not?

Some people need that emotion to live and build these types of businesses.

Others are new versions of craftsmen, who take pride in a beautiful piece that will last for generations.

Which is better? it can´t even be compared as it is roted in the mindset.

Which one is more efficient? well, meet again in 20 years.

Sandra

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Goin Green

None taken..I was basing my post more on content and how you apply it..

In your market, the $40 could have been more than a worthwile investment for you..

Those are your NEEDS not ever IM's.....

Im a novice because I just signed up for the forum? Lol..your allegations are ill prepared...I was spamming blogger when you were writting articles...

No Offense

Anyways it was a good read, I was just trying to state that "content" can be used in different instances within IM.. I remember when I was in highschool making $500 a day auto sitting in class, and I had 4 images on an unrelated topic with adsense..Where are my 50 dollar articles? Do I need to spur emotion to have someone click my ad? Was I trying to sell them something? Was I trying to build my sites status and authority...No...was i making money yes..isn't that all what were here to do?

Or lets review the registry cleaner market...hmmm how much did you make using your 40 dollar articles?

Heard alot of money was made using review pages

..scare tactic..etc..a monkey could have written my articles..

Markets are different, content changes, tactics change.

Google makes all the money..

Right. I never claimed there wasn't a use for the cheap stuff. I mentioned articles for backlinks. No way would I pay $40 for that, as one example. Adsense sites? Same thing... don't need engaging content there as a necessity. But if I always went for the cheap stuff, there are many applications where it would be a wasted $5 (no conversions); whereas spending $40 will gain me new customers on that same landing page using a variety of monetization systems.

The point I was trying to make is that newbies tend to go for the aforementioned methods for making money online. When you advance a bit, you often move into realms where you need a better quality of content... stuff that has to work hard to get visitors to take actions that help put money in your account. If I could find them at $5 a pop, bet your ass I'd hire 'em. Got someone you want to recommend? If not, I'll keep paying more and be happy because I'm getting my needs met. That's all that matters. If you get your needs met at $5 each, I honestly wish you nothing but success! Doesn't have to be one or the other.

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Mike Grant

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

I don't know how many different ways to explain this I can come up with, but I'll try again...

Find me a $5 article writer who can create a page of content that does all of the following, and I'll hire them and give them health benefits:

Pushes the right emotional buttons in visitors to turn a relatively high % of them into buyers.
Gives a depth of knowledge beyond the usual page of content so it builds my site's status as an authority on the topic - without being boring or pedantic. That is, teaches without sacrificing humor or "personality."
Creates a sense of trust between reader and author.

Know any $5/500-word writers who can do all of that? Me either.

What I just explained (my needs in a page of content) is what separates you (the novice) from me (15 years of experience). No offense... I was where you are too a few years ago. But when you get that your content has a job to do and that it's actually multi-faceted, you then understand that you just aren't going to get your needs met by an amateur writer who asks for a penny per word.

I think what you're not realizing, that's already been pointed out by others, is that YOUR experience is not universal. You're encompassing ALL writers' skills and correlating it to their pay. It's not so black and white.

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donhx

14 years ago

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

I think what you're not realizing, that's already been pointed out by others, is that YOUR experience is not universal. You're encompassing ALL writers' skills and correlating it to their pay. It's not so black and white.

Tell me mgtarheels, do you think sophism (in the modern sense) has a place in IM? In discussions on this forum? Many of us have enough experience in life to realize that there is a definite correlation between cost and quality, and it is not limited to writing. Just because you have had experiences that differ does not make your view any more valid. It is exceptions, like you mention, that tend to prove the rule. To argue as you do is sophistic.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by donhx

Tell me mgtarheels, do you think sophism (in the modern sense) has a place in IM? In discussions on this forum? Many of us have enough experience in life to realize that there is a definite correlation between cost and quality, and it is not limited to writing. Just because you have had experiences that differ does not make your view any more valid. It is exceptions, like you mention, that tend to prove the rule. To argue as you do is sophistic.

In this case, I would say sophistic is synonymous with typical.

~M~

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Dean Jackson

14 years ago

If you're in a niche where credibility isn't going to be a factor to make sales, then by all means spend $4 on an article. I wouldn't expect to pay any less than $30 for a well researched, engaging, and exciting article.

Heck, I would even consider that a killer deal and feel like I'm ripping off my writer.

I am interested in how exactly Google is judging quality though. If anyone knows please speak up.

- Dean

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Flamboyantegg

14 years ago

Thanks for the answer's all

Originally Posted by Dean Jackson

If you're in a niche where credibility isn't going to be a factor to make sales, then by all means spend $4 on an article. I wouldn't expect to pay any less than $30 for a well researched, engaging, and exciting article.

Heck, I would even consider that a killer deal and feel like I'm ripping off my writer.

I am interested in how exactly Google is judging quality though. If anyone knows please speak up.

- Dean

For the record, this is exactly what I was talking about when I said a method of absolute measurement of writing quality was "theoretically possible".

I'm sure Google have at very least a small team (probably a large one!) of people researching towards this very goal.

Anyone gone through Google patents for ideas about how the measure quality?

Thinking about it, any measure of writing quality (in Google's eyes) must currently be helping to rank those who rank highly in any selected keywords... SO, my advice would be to look for oddities/anomalies in ranking while doing keyword research.

Check all the typical factors (backlinks, quality of, distribution of anchor text phrasing, targetting of anchor text, on-site SEO etc etc...) and if it still stands out, analyse the phrasing on the site. Does it stand out in some way from other similar websites around it that rank more poorly?

Nowhere near an exact science, but when it comes to Google, unless someone out there has the algorithm and is willing to share it's probably about the best we can do.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Flamboyantegg

For the record, this is exactly what I was talking about when I said a method of absolute measurement of writing quality was "theoretically possible".

I'm sure Google have at very least a small team (probably a large one!) of people researching towards this very goal.

Anyone gone through Google patents for ideas about how the measure quality?

Thinking about it, any measure of writing quality (in Google's eyes) must currently be helping to rank those who rank highly in any selected keywords... SO, my advice would be to look for oddities/anomalies in ranking while doing keyword research.

Check all the typical factors (backlinks, quality of, distribution of anchor text phrasing, targetting of anchor text, on-site SEO etc etc...) and if it still stands out, analyse the phrasing on the site. Does it stand out in some way from other similar websites around it that rank more poorly?

Nowhere near an exact science, but when it comes to Google, unless someone out there has the algorithm and is willing to share it's probably about the best we can do.

If there is a patent on this algorithm change, it would be related to a guy named Panda, as that is the fellow credited with the idea for this change.

As far as Mr. Panda is concerned, I think it was suggested that he imagined the idea just a few months ago. So instead of looking at valid patents, I think we would need to look at patent applications.

I am still strongly leaning towards some time of social validation: inbound links, plus reprints on authority sites, plus social bookmarks from a diverse set of social media "thought leaders".

As far as the last one, look at the tweets that accompany most articles on Mashable.com to get some idea as to what they are looking at as tracking signals.

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

But seriously what's the point of starting another thread to make the point for YOUR side.

I respectably suggest that this is one of the first threads of this type where the OP actually talked about ROI as a factor in determining the value of an article.

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King Louie 14 years ago

I've seen articles like that going for $30-60 on article selling sites such as Constant Content. In fact, I have sold a 1,000+ word article about insurance for $60, with full rights, of course.
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Dave Rodman

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

I respectably suggest that this is one of the first threads of this type where the OP actually talked about ROI as a factor in determining the value of an article.

Come on! You are telling me that this is the first time that it's been brought up that ROI should be considered when purchasing articles? It's brought up any time the subject of pricing of articles comes up. If it's not, then what's been the argument for paying more for articles? Just to be a charitable guy?

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

Come on! You are telling me that this is the first time that it's been brought up that ROI should be considered when purchasing articles? It's brought up any time the subject of pricing of articles comes up. If it's not, then what's been the argument for paying more for articles? Just to be a charitable guy?

If we put a moratorium on bringing up the same points more than once at this forum, Dave, there'd be precious little to keep this place going. I had a recent experience with it and wanted to reiterate to those who will listen with an open mind that it's foolish to only consider price. Those of us with more experience need to repeat the important points at this forum if it will help the newer among us avoid common myths and misconceptions.

All of which is not to say you can't also make money with cheap content. The point is to understand that it's what that content does for you that matters... not how much you spend on it, per se.

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Bill Farnham 14 years ago

Here's what's insane... spending $4 for an garbage article and throwing $40 worth of PPC at it and thinking PPC just doesn't work.

Yet it happens all the time.

~Bill
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Dave Rodman

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

If we put a moratorium on bringing up the same points more than once at this forum, Dave, there'd be precious little to keep this place going. I had a recent experience with it and wanted to reiterate to those who will listen with an open mind that it's foolish to only consider price. Those of us with more experience need to repeat the important points at this forum if it will help the newer among us avoid common myths and misconceptions.

All of which is not to say you can't also make money with cheap content. The point is to understand that it's what that content does for you that matters... not how much you spend on it, per se.

I knew that someone would bring that up. But literally this topic of pricing for articles comes up multiple times a day. And I haven't even been around that long. It's always the same arguments back and forth.

Take another thread that comes up a lot....Email Marketing overload or Guru Bashing. THOSE threads get met with more "Geez, are we talking about this again?"

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Tina Golden 14 years ago

Did they pass a rule that requires us to read and participate in threads on topics even though we don't like the topic?
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- paulie888 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Tina Golden
  
  Did they pass a rule that requires us to read and participate in threads on topics even though we don't like the topic?
  
  Tina, we seem to be getting many disgruntled and grumpy people mouthing off on threads that they don't like - perhaps their time would be better served doing something more productive.
  
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- Tejasca 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Tina Golden
  
  Did they pass a rule that requires us to read and participate in threads on topics even though we don't like the topic?
  
  Yes. They did.
  
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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

I knew that someone would bring that up. But literally this topic of pricing for articles comes up multiple times a day.

I must be asleep at the wheel when I come to the forum...

I see the argument back and forth over quality all the time, and I do participate in those sometimes...

But then I try to avoid most article marketing threads, because many are like talking to a brick wall, especially those about spinning articles...

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paulie888

14 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

I must be asleep at the wheel when I come to the forum...

I see the argument back and forth over quality all the time, and I do participate in those sometimes...

But then I try to avoid most article marketing threads, because many are like talking to a brick wall, especially those about spinning articles...

Those are truly hilarious, Bill. I guess that there is still a a certain group of people out there who are convinced that they can use some magical software to churn out high-quality content that cannot be discerned as "spun" by humans.

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pdrs

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

I knew that someone would bring that up. But literally this topic of pricing for articles comes up multiple times a day. And I haven't even been around that long. It's always the same arguments back and forth.

Take another thread that comes up a lot....Email Marketing overload or Guru Bashing. THOSE threads get met with more "Geez, are we talking about this again?"

I personally think that this is one of the better topics I've ran across on the warrior forum. I'm not on here much but usually stop in once or twice a day and I've never run across a thread like this.

If you're really out there killin it, how you got time to read so many threads?

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Richard Van

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

I knew that someone would bring that up. But literally this topic of pricing for articles comes up multiple times a day. And I haven't even been around that long. It's always the same arguments back and forth.

Take another thread that comes up a lot....Email Marketing overload or Guru Bashing. THOSE threads get met with more "Geez, are we talking about this again?"

I can't quite understand why you're wasting your time commenting on this thread, if you in particular, find it coming up multiple times a day and it annoys you. :confused:

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SeanIM

14 years ago

You go to the doctor and you tell him

"It hurts when I do this."

He tells you "Stop doing this."

Originally Posted by Richard Van

I can't quite understand why you're wasting your time commenting on this thread, if you in particular, find it coming up multiple times a day and it annoys you. :confused:

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paulie888

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

I can't quite understand why you're wasting your time commenting on this thread, if you in particular, find it coming up multiple times a day and it annoys you. :confused:

This is pretty much what I stated earlier. If you find this topic not to your liking, you shouldn't even be wasting your time browsing through this thread.

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peter gibson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

I knew that someone would bring that up. But literally this topic of pricing for articles comes up multiple times a day. And I haven't even been around that long. It's always the same arguments back and forth.

Take another thread that comes up a lot....Email Marketing overload or Guru Bashing. THOSE threads get met with more "Geez, are we talking about this again?"

Multiple times a day? As compared to what exactly, The Warrior Quantum Physics Debate? If so, you might have a point.

Take a look at the new post topics featured today only. Now come back and tell me which one of those topics has not been beaten to death almost daily on this and any other forum involved with IM.

Forums aren't about making sure a point isn't discussed once and dropped, which I'm assuming you know. It's about taking a topic and it being given fresh and unique perspectives on it, by people who have fresh perspectives, like John, you, me, and everyone else. If it irks you so much why did you bother clicking and entering the conversation? I can think of at least 600 other topics that could definitely use the kind of criticism your throwing about in here, but I really don't see this particular topic as meriting such disdain. I mean where were you when the last "duplicate content" thread came around? Coulda used your help then for real.

And just so you know I've been around these parts a while now, and this topic has NOT been "done to death", in fact of all the conversations on this forum, quality articles and their co-relation to a higher ROI is one that deserves to get some more attention, for the benefit of those who continue buying sh!te and wondering why they make chump change and can't keep subscribers.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

Come on! You are telling me that this is the first time that it's been brought up that ROI should be considered when purchasing articles? It's brought up any time the subject of pricing of articles comes up. If it's not, then what's been the argument for paying more for articles? Just to be a charitable guy?

I must not get around as much as you do.

I don't recall any other thread of this type referring to ROI, but you seem to be more traveled than I on this topic, so I will refrain from such suggestions in the future.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

I am still strongly leaning towards some time of social validation: inbound links, plus reprints on authority sites, plus social bookmarks from a diverse set of social media "thought leaders".

As far as the last one, look at the tweets that accompany most articles on Mashable.com to get some idea as to what they are looking at as tracking signals.

So we go from link peddling to influence peddling, no?

The market should decide quality. Google is busily preventing that by acting as a de facto censor.

Only ten pages will ever be on page one of Google in the organic search results. The other umpteen million pages will never be on the first page of Google.

Google's job is to go out into the vastness of the internet and find pages that most accurately represent their users' needs and desires. If they fail to do that reliably, they will continue to lose market share to Bing, as they have been doing in recent months.

You can cry censorship all day long, but the reality is that they are showing the information they want to show on their site, just the same as you decide what information appears on your site.

You don't see me harping on you because you do not have links to my site on your front page, do you? :rolleyes:

You say these decisions should be left to the market to decide. Honestly, the market made this decision for us, by starting an exodus away from Google and going to Bing for their search results.

Google was forced to make this change or to concede more market share to Bing unopposed.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Originally Posted by tpw

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

I am still strongly leaning towards some time of social validation: inbound links, plus reprints on authority sites, plus social bookmarks from a diverse set of social media "thought leaders".

As far as the last one, look at the tweets that accompany most articles on Mashable.com to get some idea as to what they are looking at as tracking signals.

So we go from link peddling to influence peddling, no?

The market should decide quality. Google is busily preventing that by acting as a de facto censor.

Only ten pages will ever be on page one of Google in the organic search results. The other umpteen million pages will never be on the first page of Google.

Google's job is to go out into the vastness of the internet and find pages that most accurately represent their users' needs and desires. If they fail to do that reliably, they will continue to lose market share to Bing, as they have been doing in recent months.

You can cry censorship all day long, but the reality is that they are showing the information they want to show on their site, just the same as you decide what information appears on your site.

You don't see me harping on you because you do not have links to my site on your front page, do you? :rolleyes:

You say these decisions should be left to the market to decide. Honestly, the market made this decision for us, by starting an exodus away from Google and going to Bing for their search results.

Google was forced to make this change or to concede more market share to Bing unopposed.

So you mount your charger and sally forth to defend Google. They create nothing, use the work of others offering no recompense, refuse to return value for money with their adwords program, and promote mediocrity with their adsense program -- all of this while piously claiming to do no evil.

Nothing wrong with that, I guess.

It's moot anyway. They are slowly drowning in the cesspool they created with their search algorithm.

As for the idea of influence centers, it's ludicrous. People would be selling influence (they already are) instead of concocting hare-brained linking schemes.

I am only defending their right to run their business as they see fit, just as you have the right to run your business as you see fit, and as I have the right to run mine as I see fit to do.

By declaring that Google is a de facto censor, you are suggesting that you don't like the results they present to the community.

How is Bing or Yahoo different from Google? Well they have different names, different listings on their pages, and a smaller market share.

Are you calling Bing or Yahoo de facto censors? Not yet anyway.

Why not? Because they are not yet the elephant in the room?

Google is not preventing people from finding your "quality content", if that is your issue with them.

The only persons preventing your content from finding an audience is you.

I don't rely on Google for my traffic, and you should not either.

If you are wishing to rely on Google for your traffic, at least we have identified the problem so that you can move beyond the thing that is holding you back.

Google will always only have ten results on page one in the organic listings, and they will sell part of their virtual real estate (another 8-12 listings) to the highest bidder. It seems to be a good business model that many people try to emulate.

If you are only hoping for Google to send you more traffic, then you are like the rest of us.

Yet, Google has no obligation to send you or I or anyone else some of their traffic.

Outside of Google, there are millions of other websites from which you can get traffic to your website.

So let me ask, who is really keeping your content away from its intended audiences? Google or you?

Let me ask also another more pointed question...

With millions of potential sources of traffic on the Internet, who is really censoring your content? Google or you?

You can cry censorship all day long, but Google is just like the Warrior Forum and all other privately-owned and publicly-owned websites on the Internet.

All websites have the right to choose what content they present to their audience and when to do so.

If that means all websites are guilty of censorship, I will accept your definition of censorship.

We all censor the content we show to our audiences, by deciding what we will make available to our audience and what we will not make available to them.

How is that a problem, again?

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arttse 14 years ago

http://www.warriorforum.com/adsense-...t-content.html

Originally Posted by Dean Jackson

I am interested in how exactly Google is judging quality though. If anyone knows please speak up.

- Dean
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P.Sharma

14 years ago

this is really what I wanted to say too. I run a review site and pay between $60-100 dollars per 800 words + pictures too but the review is well written and all I need to do is just copy paste the HTML code that my writer provides me with.

If you can make $600 from a $60 article- it makes complete sense to do it well

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Joanne D

14 years ago

Originally Posted by P.Sharma

this is really what I wanted to say too. I run a review site and pay between $60-100 dollars per 800 words + pictures too but the review is well written and all I need to do is just copy paste the HTML code that my writer provides me with.

If you can make $600 from a $60 article- it makes complete sense to do it well

Hmmm - From what I'm reading here, I should be charging more for my writing services. I won't send anything less than top-quality, and I include HTML whenever necessary.

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Joanne D 14 years ago

This is a great post and well overdue.

It can be a struggle to get people to realize that you are a good or great writer, especially when just starting out. Just like with IM, it takes time and patience to grow a writing service business. Reputation is key to success in writing, and it takes time and hard-work to get "the" reputation.

I've always said that quality over quantity is the most important thing.
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Jason Fulton

14 years ago

As the old saying goes, "You can't put a price on quality"

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Arguments in a forum are often educational. Imagine how boring this place would be if we were all just preaching to the choir. In my view, the more pervasive the myth (like you should pay as little as possible for content), the more often the more experienced among us should tee it up and bat it around. Not that many newbies are going to even know to search the forum about something like this. See what I mean, Dave? It's one of those things that has to be out front and center fairly often for it to have an impact on the very people that need to see it most.

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O0o0O

14 years ago

That's a great price to pay for sales copy grade material. If you're writing an article for Ezine articles, then the only reason why you would pay that much is if your goal is to get maximum publisher conversions - that is getting the maximum number of readers who read your article to publish it onto other sites. To maximize this percentage, you've got to have a stellar and convincing article that provokes the reader to share it with others.

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ewenmack

14 years ago

John, could you please share the article link so that less experienced marketers and writers here can tell the difference from good and bad?

Best,
Ewen

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Originally Posted by ewenmack

John, could you please share the article link so that less experienced marketers and writers here can tell the difference from good and bad?

Best,
Ewen

Nope. That's a good way to have the content become worthless in a hurry. But I know you didn't ask for that reason, so no worries.

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Gail_Curran

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Nope. That's a good way to have the content become worthless in a hurry. But I know you didn't ask for that reason, so no worries.

While I fully understand why you wouldn't want to share the content in this forum, it's still frustrating to not be able to see examples of what real writers consider to be high-value content. It would be educational, to say the least.

I also want to see examples of those "high-quality" articles that some people churn out at the rate of 20 per day. :rolleyes:

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Alfred Shelver

14 years ago

Gail,

Just look at some of the longer posts by warriors such as Bil Platt (TPW), Alexa Smith and Paul Myers etc also take a peak at Zuess66 and Tpw's articles in the article section of the forum (not difficult sort by highest views). You will get a pretty good idea of what high quality is.

They often give as much value if you look at the writing style as they do in the content itself.

Originally Posted by Gail_Curran

While I fully understand why you wouldn't want to share the content in this forum, it's still frustrating to not be able to see examples of what real writers consider to be high-value content. It would be educational, to say the least.

I also want to see examples of those "high-quality" articles that some people churn out at the rate of 20 per day. :rolleyes:

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Gail_Curran

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Cathy Shelver

Just look at some of the longer posts by warriors such as Bil Platt (TPW), Alexa Smith and Paul Myers etc also take a peak at Zuess66 and Tpw's articles in the article section of the forum (not difficult sort by highest views). You will get a pretty good idea of what high quality is.

They often give as much value if you look at the writing style as they do in the content itself.

That's a good point, and in fact these are some of my "must-read" posters for that very reason.

Haven't checked out the article section yet but that's an excellent suggestion.

What I'm looking for, I guess, is a connection between price and content. "I gladly paid $X for this."

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Sandra Martinez

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Gail_Curran

While I fully understand why you wouldn't want to share the content in this forum, it's still frustrating to not be able to see examples of what real writers consider to be high-value content. It would be educational, to say the least.

I also want to see examples of those "high-quality" articles that some people churn out at the rate of 20 per day. :rolleyes:

A great article is an article that is well researched and written, has a unique proposition and serves the purpose.

A good writer will be able to write the articles to serve a purpose. If the purpose is to educate, it can be done; if the purpose is to make an impression, it can be done; if the purpose is to guide the visitor to a link, it can be done.

Then you will have specialization, some are better for certain styles than others. But in general all good writers can pull off all the styles.

What makes the difference between a writer and someone who writes is the layers of communication. The writing generates emotions and the emotions trigger actions. Writers manage the art of creating a concatenation of emotions and impressions embedded in the words. And those emotions can be manipulated to generate an outcome. You need a special sensibility to do it, it is an art.

Sandra

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Dave Rodman

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Gail_Curran

While I fully understand why you wouldn't want to share the content in this forum, it's still frustrating to not be able to see examples of what real writers consider to be high-value content. It would be educational, to say the least.

I also want to see examples of those "high-quality" articles that some people churn out at the rate of 20 per day. :rolleyes:

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. There are VERY few people that are willing to actually show a "high quality article", whether they wrote it or it's just an example of something they get for $40 or $50.

The funny thing is that I've both used WF writers AND run across some articles of posters here. Prominent posters. And the articles are not really what I'd consider high quality.

The way people talk here, I wonder if they'd still pay $40 for an article that they could get for $10. Just so they don't have to be associated with the peons that underpay!

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Gail_Curran

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. There are VERY few people that are willing to actually show a "high quality article", whether they wrote it or it's just an example of something they get for $40 or $50.

The funny thing is that I've both used WF writers AND run across some articles of posters here. Prominent posters. And the articles are not really what I'd consider high quality.

The way people talk here, I wonder if they'd still pay $40 for an article that they could get for $10. Just so they don't have to be associated with the peons that underpay!

Please don't misunderstand. I believe good writers are worth every penny. I just want to see the content so I can model it (or try to) myself. Writers can't improve themselves in a vacuum, without feedback and exposure to quality.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Cathy Shelver

Gail,

Just look at some of the longer posts by warriors such as Bil Platt (TPW), Alexa Smith and Paul Myers etc also take a peak at Zuess66 and Tpw's articles in the article section of the forum (not difficult sort by highest views). You will get a pretty good idea of what high quality is.

They often give as much value if you look at the writing style as they do in the content itself.

Originally Posted by Gail_Curran

Please don't misunderstand. I believe good writers are worth every penny. I just want to see the content so I can model it (or try to) myself. Writers can't improve themselves in a vacuum, without feedback and exposure to quality.

Gail: Understood.

But please understand that there are a couple issues at play here.

If I ghost wrote an article for a client, that client could rightfully feel cheated if I told the world who really wrote his/her content for them.

And exposing who wrote their content for them could create problems for them that they do not need in their business now or ever.

Second, as I believe John was eluding to, if I were to tell you that X article is one that created five-figures in sales for me, what would stop the unethical people who troll the WF looking for an opportunity to exploit someone from stealing my article for their personal gain.

But, I am going to link you to my articles in the article directory here at WF anyway, since you could find them if you were to look for them:

http://www.warriorforum.com/articles...fic-fairy.html

http://www.warriorforum.com/articles...marketing.html

http://www.warriorforum.com/articles...-eyeballs.html

If you want more articles to look at, you can see the ones I have written under my own name here:
149 Most Recent Articles Written By: Bill Platt

I also write under more than a dozen pen names for my sites, but there should be no need to share those here.

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Richard Van

14 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

But, I am going to link you to my articles in the article directory here at WF anyway, since you could find them if you were to look for them:

http://www.warriorforum.com/articles...fic-fairy.html

http://www.warriorforum.com/articles...marketing.html

http://www.warriorforum.com/articles...-eyeballs.html

If you want more articles to look at, you can see the ones I have written under my own name here:
149 Most Recent Articles Written By: Bill Platt

I also write under more than a dozen pen names for my sites, but there should be no need to share those here.

Thanks Bill,

I think that'll help a lot of people, including myself.

I'm sure certain people won't be impressed but I for one am very grateful for you sharing this.

Good stuff.

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. There are VERY few people that are willing to actually show a "high quality article", whether they wrote it or it's just an example of something they get for $40 or $50.

The funny thing is that I've both used WF writers AND run across some articles of posters here. Prominent posters. And the articles are not really what I'd consider high quality.

The way people talk here, I wonder if they'd still pay $40 for an article that they could get for $10. Just so they don't have to be associated with the peons that underpay!

It sounds like you're frustrated because you don't know how to use articles or content and therefore have to focus on the initial cost of the writing. You have lots of company. I recommend you continue paying $4 or whatever for your articles. Hey, as long as you're making $5 from each one, it's all good. Profit is profit. And the writers charging that much are probably thrilled to get your business. To each his own.

As to your other point about not showing the higher quality content, there's a good reason not to advertise such things in a forum like this one. Think about it.

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Dave Rodman

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

It sounds like you're frustrated because you don't know how to use articles or content and therefore have to focus on the initial cost of the writing. You have lots of company. I recommend you continue paying $4 or whatever for your articles. Hey, as long as you're making $5 from each one, it's all good. Profit is profit. And the writers charging that much are probably thrilled to get your business. To each his own.

As to your other point about not showing the higher quality content, there's a good reason not to advertise such things in a forum like this one. Think about it.

I think that people don't advertise it because if they did, people would not be as impressed. It's easier to just keep repeating that you have high quality content.

Really, I don't have a stance on paying a lot or a little for articles. I look for the article quality I want (for the purpose) and if I feel it's worth the value, then I pay them.

People talk about the price of articles in absolutes. As if there is a threshold between low-quality and high-quality. And as if everyone is using articles for the same purpose.

I have several technical sites where I pay thousands of dollars for technical writers to write content. Do I think that is suitable for everyone that has a site? No, it's just that there is a low supply of writers that can do that type of work.

I think it's funny how people have this kind of elitist attitude when it comes to the price they pay for articles. Great, you paid $40 for "high quality" articles and another one paid $10. What would you say to the person that pays $250 articles and thinks that your "high quality" articles aren't really that high quality.

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Sandra Martinez

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

I have several technical sites where I pay thousands of dollars for technical writers to write content. Do I think that is suitable for everyone that has a site? No, it's just that there is a low supply of writers that can do that type of work.

Actually I have been paid a couple of thousands of dollars for an article at some point, now that I think about it.

When I was doing research in physics...

And we worked fast, releasing a paper a month or so. Some groups did a paper a year.

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Kecia

14 years ago

Thank you for sharing the ROI aspect of having content created for you, John. I think many people fail to see the big picture when getting articles written, and instead just want to get as much as they can for the cheapest price tag.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kecia08

Thank you for sharing the ROI aspect of having content created for you, John. I think many people fail to see the big picture when getting articles written, and instead just want to get as much as they can for the cheapest price tag.

Yep, they want to make thousands per day, yet pay pennies for the people who do the work for them...

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mitoshthewarrior

14 years ago

I'm paying about $25-35 an article myself, but the work is amazing. She writes better English than my English teacher. She puts a lot of great thought into it as well. When I use content that has my name on it and I am not the one who writes it, it is her or one other writer I use.

Cheap content has its place as well, back-linking and other places where humans typically don't even read it.

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Alfred Shelver

14 years ago

Here is something else I found interesting.

John, you are one hell of a writer. One of the best on here, and you find more worth in paying top dollar than doing it yourself.

That is some serious food for thought, look at Bill Platt and Alexa Smith they are fantastic and could get $80 -$120 for 500 words and yet I doubt they do a lot of ghost writing.

Which must mean there time is spent doing something with a far higher return on investment.

And in answer to anyone dogging on this thread, if top warriors spent more time going over the popular topics on the forum, maybe there would not be so many newbies asking the same thing. ... I can dream can't I ?

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Thomas Wilkinson

14 years ago

As anyone who has studied writing at all will tell you,
The Gettysburg Address has just 256 words. The Ten
Commandments (in English) have only 313. I'm
pretty sure I'd have laid out $40 for either of them.

Thomas

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sam12six

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Wilkinson

As anyone who has studied writing at all will tell you,
The Gettysburg Address has just 256 words. The Ten
Commandments (in English) have only 313. I'm
pretty sure I'd have laid out $40 for either of them.

Thomas

LOL. You just inspired my next Ezinearticles submission

10 Handy Tips to Avoid Eternal Damnation

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Martin Luxton

14 years ago

So, if you pay somebody in the Philippines $2 for an article and it makes you $100, it's exploitation.

If you pay somebody $40 for an article and it makes you $2,000 (same ROI as above) you're paying your article writers well.

Hmmmm.

Martin

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Martin Luxton

So, if you pay somebody in the Philippines $2 for an article and it makes you $100, it's exploitation.

If you pay somebody $40 for an article and it makes you $2,000 (same ROI as above) you're paying your article writers well.

Hmmmm.

Martin

I don't think anybody is talking about exploitation.

A lot of it comes down to trust as well. If you are familiar with a writer, and know they can deliver exactly what you want, then paying them more makes sense.

I have a feeling we're not talking about a run-of-the-mill article here. So, if you pay somebody $40 for an article that brings in $2000 you're being ripped off? But if you pay someone $2 for an article that brings in $100 you're being smart?

Nope!

Because you are using fuzzy math. While the PERCENTAGE is the same, the amount of actual profit is much higher. The $2 article nets you $98, and the $40 article nets you $1,960. I know which I would prefer.

BUT...what if you get 20 of those $2 articles done? Yes, it would, in theory, be the same return, however, there would be a lot more time invested in getting those 20 articles done.

Hmmmm.

All the best,
Michael

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Barry Unruh

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Martin Luxton

So, if you pay somebody in the Philippines $2 for an article and it makes you $100, it's exploitation.

If you pay somebody $40 for an article and it makes you $2,000 (same ROI as above) you're paying your article writers well.

Hmmmm.

Martin

How about I take a shot at this one...Since I'm sitting here in the Philippines.

I have talked to numerous Filipino writers here. Yes, at $2 per article you are underpaying the highly qualified ones, and they know it. They may still take your job, because they want/need the money.

Now, if you pay many of these same high quality writers $10 per article you are going to accomplish two things.

#1 - They many spend hours researching and fine tuning the article to make it great.

#2 - They will be devoted to you.

One young lady I talked to about article previously was AMAZING. She could write health and medical related articles which would make your head spin. She loved doing them and was proficient at research. (A topic I hate with a passion.)

When we were sharing emails she was taking orders at approximately $4/article and KNEW she was worth more.

Consider this simple idea. If you find one of those jewels in the Philippines who can create content which is masterful, well researched, and engaging why would you pay $2? You should be trying to create a partnership and lock them down to be YOUR WRITER at a great wage in the Philippines. They are worth it.

Now on the other side of your example. The writer who is commanding $40/article and giving a $2000 return is equally worth gold to you. The difference is he has set a price which allows him to make a livable wage. You are going to get a well researched article which is well written.

One other point someone brought up is how did John know he was going to get value. I did not take it John went into this purchase blindly, but knew the writer and the quality they could produce already. A $40 writer is going to be willing to let you see their portfolio and evaluate them, where a $4 writer may not be so excited.

Barry

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Adie

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Barry Unruh

How about I take a shot at this one...Since I'm sitting here in the Philippines.

I have talked to numerous Filipino writers here. Yes, at $2 per article you are underpaying the highly qualified ones, and they know it. They may still take your job, because they want/need the money.

Now, if you pay many of these same high quality writers $10 per article you are going to accomplish two things.

#1 - They many spend hours researching and fine tuning the article to make it great.

#2 - They will be devoted to you.

One young lady I talked to about article previously was AMAZING. She could write health and medical related articles which would make your head spin. She loved doing them and was proficient at research. (A topic I hate with a passion.)

When we were sharing emails she was taking orders at approximately $4/article and KNEW she was worth more.

Consider this simple idea. If you find one of those jewels in the Philippines who can create content which is masterful, well researched, and engaging why would you pay $2? You should be trying to create a partnership and lock them down to be YOUR WRITER at a great wage in the Philippines. They are worth it.

Now on the other side of your example. The writer who is commanding $40/article and giving a $2000 return is equally worth gold to you. The difference is he has set a price which allows him to make a livable wage. You are going to get a well researched article which is well written.

One other point someone brought up is how did John know he was going to get value. I did not take it John went into this purchase blindly, but knew the writer and the quality they could produce already. A $40 writer is going to be willing to let you see their portfolio and evaluate them, where a $4 writer may not be so excited.

Barry

There are many writers in Philippines who worth more than $40 if some customers are willing to pay. You can charge any amount you want if you feel that you can write better than what they expected. The problem is, not many people are willing to pay even $20.

I have a Filipino writer who is extremely good. I give him all difficult-articles-to-write with special prices and he always provide me and my customers' needs. Yesterday, he wrote 4 x 500 words articles about tuberculosis and I was stunned. Only thing I said to my self "I can't do this".. LOL. he is a top member of my team anyway and I am planning to make him a head editor once my planned company is fully organized..... I think I am extremely lucky with him too. I picked him out of 32 bidders at freelance.com despite of lack of reviews. That's what I call "gold"..

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celente

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

And I consider that a BARGAIN! The writer is a friend of mine and he's very good. But my point here is two-fold...

You have to know what to do with content so that the cost to have it written is an investment, not a true cost.
Work with people you know you can trust. The only way to get to that point is to engage with people. Don't be a hermit.

When you see a thread about getting $4 articles, it's usually someone pretty new. They don't get that those cheap articles are usually crap that has to be edited. That takes time. Time = money.

Even well written $4 articles (and yeah, I know there are some out there) often lack any real substance. They're just lifeless sentences strung together to fill a page. They don't inspire your site visitors. They don't CONVERT, in other words. That's what most new people don't understand. The words on a page need to achieve a goal that helps you. It's not enough to fill the page.

That's why $40 is a pittance for quality content that I know will convert.

John

John great work and great info, you explained it very well.

I have paid $30 for an article and get this done from time to time.

Why do I do this, because I have had one of my writers write an article so good it was stumbled, posted on about 8000 blogs, more backlinks and now has over hundreds of thousands of views.

Quality matters, no matter what google does, or what happens to places like EA....if you have a quality articles and a nice calll to action to your squeeze page, and build your list from this. $40 is a no brainer. Especially when that one high quality articles is bringing hundreds of subscribers and money over serveral years. Many people raise their eyebrows and thinks WHOA! $40 bucks.....john you are insane. But after the reason why u should do this, it makes total sense.

This is a good reminder here, that articles and especially high quality articles are worth more than $40 in the long run.

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drakerafael

14 years ago

Originally Posted by AdmiralGloom

I recently had a client more than willing to pay more than that. He did it because I was honest and he trusted me.

He was simply frustrated with foreign writers and after he saw my work he was more than content.

Sorry if that sounds like a self promotion but really the one thing you need if you want to succeeded is passion.

And not just overall. I mean on every single piece of work you do.

what actually matters is the quality....if the quality is really good then I think you can gain profits...price is not the main thing, try to focus on the quality...

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by drakerafael

what actually matters is the quality....if the quality is really good then I think you can gain profits...price is not the main thing, try to focus on the quality...

You're right, quality is important, but there is something that may be even more important:

Purpose!

You can probably get away with a grammatical error or two, if the writing fills its purpose well. Of course, there are limits, but a few mistakes won't make a huge difference if the purpose is fulfilled.

BUT...if you can combine purpose AND quality, then you can get $40 for a 487-word article.

All the best,
Michael

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drakerafael

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

You're right, quality is important, but there is something that may be even more important:

Purpose!

You can probably get away with a grammatical error or two, if the writing fills its purpose well. Of course, there are limits, but a few mistakes won't make a huge difference if the purpose is fulfilled.

BUT...if you can combine purpose AND quality, then you can get $40 for a 487-word article.

All the best,
Michael

Yes you are absolutely correct. Along with the quality, purpose is very important because if purpose is not fulfill properly, many problems can be raised and there will be no use of the work..Thus, quality and purpose both plays an important role in making a work worth like...

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Oksa

You're right, quality is important, but there is something that may be even more important:

Purpose!

You can probably get away with a grammatical error or two, if the writing fills its purpose well. Of course, there are limits, but a few mistakes won't make a huge difference if the purpose is fulfilled.

BUT...if you can combine purpose AND quality, then you can get $40 for a 487-word article.

All the best,
Michael

THIS is exactly the right takeaway. $40 for around 500 words that don't need proofing AND that push my site visitors to take an action that serves my purposes is a freaking bargain every day (twice on Sundays).

This is what differentiates content buyers who understand that conversions are what really matter from those (usually with less experience) who think more one-dimensionally.

Believe me, after nearly 15 years in this business, if I could get that combination of edit-proof quality AND words that push the right emotional buttons to get my visitors to take actions that benefit me for $4, OF COURSE I'd take that deal! LOL

Mama didn't raise no fool. And even if she did, I don't want Mr. T's pity.

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Tina Golden

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Coby

However, from the other side of the fence. How does one transition from a $4 an article writer to one that can charge $40 an article? Should I just market myself as a $40 article writer? My plan now was to build up the clientele with intentions of charging more in the future (in theory they will know my "value" by then). Or would it be better to take on less work now and charge higher prices (like say $40) with intentions to eventually charge $100 or more (like TPW mentioned)?

Coby - If you have the skills and talent, then ask for what you are worth right off the bat. I started out low and worked up and would never recommend it to anyone (unless they followed the very neat little plan that Bill shared with dual sales pages).

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

The fact that paying $40 for high quality writing seems to be high says a lot about our niche but not much else.

Andy - Great point. Offline, you will rarely see less than .25 per word for a magazine quality piece.

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

The way people talk here, I wonder if they'd still pay $40 for an article that they could get for $10. Just so they don't have to be associated with the peons that underpay!

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

I think that people don't advertise it because if they did, people would not be as impressed. It's easier to just keep repeating that you have high quality content.

I think it's funny how people have this kind of elitist attitude when it comes to the price they pay for articles. Great, you paid $40 for "high quality" articles and another one paid $10. What would you say to the person that pays $250 articles and thinks that your "high quality" articles aren't really that high quality.

Dave - If they do that, then they are foolish. I've paid $5 for articles that I would have happily paid more for but that is the rate the writer requested. I do give my regular writers bonuses as often as I can but I pay what they ask for. You'd have to be a complete idiot to discard something simply on the basis of the price being low.

And I do agree that there are many who repeat over and over that they produce high quality content...and then I see the work and am underwhelmed. We all have different standards when it comes to quality.

Originally Posted by Content Winner

I have a dilemma: offer relatively low rates for my services and get plenty of customers, OR place a high price tag and get only a few clients. Despite the claims of many esteemed marketers that they are willing to pay big bucks for quality content, I believe that bargain-hunting marketers outnumber the big-spending ones. In my opinion, most bargain-hunters are beginners or just starting out in IM, and so are not capable or willing to pay $40 or so for a 400-word article.

Content Winner - Do not compete on price. There is a market for every price level, just as a McDonald's and high-end steakhouse can both succeed even when next to each other. Yes, you will likely get more customers at a lower price but keep in mind that if you ask for a higher rate, you will have to produce fewer articles in order to make the same amount.

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

Which is why price is irrelevant. Are you happy with the value for the price you paid...period. Like I said, a guy that's paying $250/article for his "quality content" probably thinks that Mr. $40/articles is getting worthless garbage for content. But as long as it's suitable for your purpose, then so be it.

Dave - For once, I am in complete agreement with you.

Originally Posted by donhx

This kind of thinking is common, but disturbing.

In writing and in fashion (and a lot of other areas too) people are their own worst enemies. They are often clueless about what is suitable.

Donhx - Comparing apples to oranges will rarely make the point you want it to make. I fail to see why what anyone else is willing to either pay or accept for content should be in any way disturbing to you.

Originally Posted by Richard Van

My point is, I test. All my thoughts, are just that, what I think, which is often not right. Testing shows me what works. The result of my testing is this - Very good writers tend to charge more than not very good ones. This is common in life. That's not to say some of the $3 article writers are not stars in the making but as a general rule, I think you know what I mean.

Richard - That's exactly what most of mean when we say that you get what you pay for. Sure, you may find some diamonds amongst the pebbles but it sure is backbreaking work trying to dig them out.

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

I said nobody is in a position to tell others to pay more for content when
a) They don't know the price they're paying
b) They don't know the content they are getting
c) They don't know the purpose of the content.

So why is it different for article writers? It's all the sudden very black and white. People will say "$10 is low quality content, whereas I'm paying $40 for high quality content".

Dave - Amazingly enough, again I find myself in complete agreement. Although I don't think John was saying anything of the kind with his original post, but only trying to get some to realize that price is not the only factor they should be considering.

Originally Posted by theultimate1

I'd love to see some articles that get sold for $30-40+ for under 500 words a piece.

Would you pay an Indian writer, given that he delivers amazing content, something like that?

theultimate1 - For your first statement, pick up any magazine. For your question, nationality has no bearing on it for me. If the Indian writer could produce what I was looking for, I would give them the rate they ask for.

Originally Posted by Mike McAleer

If you pay someone 4 bucks, yes it will get you an article and save you time but it does not mean it will convert the visitor in any way.

Mike - At the same time, it doesn't mean that it won't convert, either. Price alone is not a good way to judge, other than in generalities and overall averages. I can tell you that out of the low end writers I have tried, perhaps 10% turn out to be worth more than they're asking. Many are worth less. If you want to spend that much time weeding through, you can find some decent writers.

Originally Posted by caseycase

My articles are cheap. Really cheap for the quality. I make very little per article. However, I do make good money on volume. I have lots of repeat customers and a good system to manage the flow of orders. (A.K.A. "Logistics." Thanks UPS.).

John, you just downed everyone out there like myself who does not inflate their prices, saying that even the best inexpensive articles are "...lifeless sentences strung together to fill a page."

Sure, I could probably sell my articles for 3-4 times as much. But why? So I get more money in my pocket and price other hard-working Warriors, who may not have $40 to spend, out of the market for good content?

caseycase - Making your income on volume is fine, if that's what you choose. The end result is that you will do far more work for the income you earn compared to someone who is charging more.

As to your comment, "inflate their prices", you are doing what you accuse John of doing. Just because I choose to work for a rate higher than you, does not mean that I am inflating anything. I know my value and I know what my work can produce for my customers.

I don't know about you, but I'm running a business. I know what I have to make in order to make a reasonable profit. It's not part of my business model to ensure that other people can get good content, if it means that I must lower my rate per hour in order to make that happen.

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William Prawira

14 years ago

This seems to be a great topic to discuss. I don't know about other newbies, but for me, it seems like a bit expensive, especially because I'm starting IM with limited budget, not with a big budget. I try to get everything I needed first, and then by the time I make a little money, I try to reinvest them to my business as well.

Maybe in the future, I am able to budget my way to "$40 for an article". For the meantime, I think I don't have a budget for it.

Do you think It's okay for me to ask for reference at this post? I think I'll be needing it for future months

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Matt Ausin

14 years ago

Exactly!

this is why I often write myself and about subjects that I know on my sites.

Because, honestly, I feel that I'm insulting my visitors if all that I offer them are $4 articles that basically go like "<insert niche here> is a very broad and interesting subject. One must learn a lot to be proficient in <insert niche here>". I mean, come on!

That's why I always either write myself, or at least add something of real value - like well researched outgoing links, related youtube videos, something along these lines.

And $40 would be a bargain for a well written page that must convert. That's a higher league than information articles.

So, I feel like I'm preaching to the choir here, but anyway.. quality quality quality! It will win every time.

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AzzamS

14 years ago

If the OP had put the title as:

"one quality article written for $40 increased conversion by 46% and generated $3,465 profits in 2 days"

Then there would not be a debate about quality of article

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nick1980

14 years ago

Spot on. I charge £20 for a 400+ word article. I spend time researching the subject area so that I understand what the reader will be looking for, and consequently, what I should include to convert those readers.

Constructing an informative article that people will not only enjoy reading, but will be compelled to act upon, is a skill that carries a premium. Also, as a copywriter with my own business, I've got to evaluate what my time is worth, as well as what's a reasonable price to charge the client.

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mel guard

14 years ago

if you got what you wanted then it is ok we all have our standards

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John Romaine

14 years ago

What a rip off.

Youre best off paying $2 an article, having it re-written multiple times and wasting weeks doing it.

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Barry Unruh 14 years ago

Originally Posted by ramone_johnny

What a rip off.

Youre best off paying $2 an article, having it re-written multiple times and wasting weeks doing it.

Now that made me laugh....coming from you..
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TiffanyLambert

14 years ago

Thanks for saying this John! I often have students confused about how often they see requests for $2 per page - they don't truly believe there are higher paying clients out there and that's what my whole ghostwriting business was! All those gurus who hired me - John Reese, Rich Schefren, Ewen Chia, Jimmy Brown, Travis Sago, etc...they didn't blink about price. They wanted the best. They would probably never have paid $2 an article because that's risky.

You confirmed as a buyer what I try to explain. lol

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Michael Newman 14 years ago

Interesting posts.

Some people want high-quality content, but they'll like to pay $4/$5. What's our business, as long as they're satisfied :-)

I've charged peanuts for quality content before (an entry strategy, for quickly getting reviews and testimonials), believe me, it's not a sustainable practice. No smart business person puts in a lot for little rewards.

I remember reading an article by John Reese, where he explained why he makes sure he pays high rates for his content. It's common sense. Price is really a measure of value.

Ghost-writing is a business, and quality takes time (but I'm biased). One of capitalism's defining beauties is the freedom to choose. You can even get (desperate) writers for $3 or $2.

It's a free world.

Michael Newman
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Orderof47

14 years ago

Agreed- Quality over quantity, every time

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SeanSupplee

14 years ago

Quality over quantity always wins the game

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celente 14 years ago

Originally Posted by SeanSupplee

Quality over quantity always wins the game

You just summed up OP original post in 7 simple words.
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- alexdigital 14 years ago
  
  Can anyone share the details of these quality writers? I'd like to get me one.
  
  -Alex
  
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  jfrovich 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by alexdigital
  
  Can anyone share the details of these quality writers? I'd like to get me one.
  
  -Alex
  
  I am also interested in these higher quality articles.
  I agree the $4 are crap and i want to improve my sites with solid content from a professional writer.
  
  Looking for suggestions on who i could hire.
  
  I just spent the last 20 mins searching the forum for a good article writer, no luck
  
  Thanks.
  
  Thanks
  
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la dominatrix

14 years ago

I have just charged someone £50.00 for an "about" page, which in effect will be the home page. My client is more than happy, so happy that they have ordered seven more pages of content. Whilst it is impossible to give a guarantee that that copy will convert(no one will do that) it is implicit that it will convert. As I know I am going to have to correct it if it is wrong then I don't make the mistake in the first place.
In other words I drill down to the unique selling points and find out exactly what type of client they are targetting. That is why the price is as it is!

As usual John, sound common sense; Though I suspect that there are many people on this forum who will not agree with you.

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Adie

14 years ago

Speaking about quality, what is the difference between a $40 and a $20 articles if written by both very good writers? Although it is true that you may consider it an investment, but when speaking about real investments, even big corporations are looking for cheaper alternatives without sacrificing the quality. That's why there is a lean manufacturing - reduce cost while increasing productivity and quality.

Not all expensive products always comes in good quality...

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Sandra Martinez

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Adie

Speaking about quality, what is the difference between a $40 and a $20 articles if written by both very good writers? Although it is true that you may consider it an investment, but when speaking about real investments, even big corporations are looking for cheaper alternatives without sacrificing the quality. That's why there is a lean manufacturing - reduce cost while increasing productivity and quality.

Not all expensive products always comes in good quality...

What is the difference? polishing and soul. I know how much I want to earn the hour, if you pay $40 for an article, you have 2 hours of my undivided time, I can go the extra mile and make it 3. If you pay $20, you have one hour of my time, an hour and a half going far; and I will not be happy having to work fast - which imprints in the writing as I´m a very strong emitter.

This is why I don´t do articles too much, I prefer ebooks or reports. Works better for everyone, as once I´m on a row I can write pretty fast for hours non stop.

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tlrademaker

14 years ago

Way to say what some of us really believe.

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Hammad

14 years ago

you are right, better communication is one of the keys to get better work, and cheaply done article can get you down instead of taking up.

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VGreg

14 years ago

wow, this really made me think about the quality of the artciles I write.
Also open my eyes about quality a little bit. I usually see articles for 25-30 only, this is actually the first time I heard somebody who bought an article for 40$, however it seems it was a good choice.
May I ask how regularly do you buy articles?

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marketermatt

14 years ago

Quality is what matter

$40 for 400+ words may sound a lot but when its expert quality you cant complain.

-matt

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Amanda Craven

14 years ago

How refreshing - a thread that (mostly) makes me smile in delight. Why? Because so many experienced, successful marketers are willing to underline how quality content can be one of the most important investments you make. Strike that - IS one of the most important investments you make, whether it be copy, ebooks, reports or articles.

Slap your reader's eyeballs with the audacity of your words...make their mind dance with your message...get 'em giggling in the aisles with your wit and you have a surefire winner on your hands. When I write a book I give it my all knowing that the investment of my time and my publisher's money = income over and over again in sales. Same applies online, especially as there is so much crap swilling around out there.

$40 to me is cheap at the price and I don't think price should ever be the central issue. Of course, you pay what you can afford but the trick is to think longterm. And don't forget that once you've bought that content, you can reuse, repurpose and regain your investment many times over. Great writing is for life...especially on the internet where it lives virally on forever.

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Coby

14 years ago

Excellent Point John! I can't agree more with using quality content. Hell, the $40 will pay for itself in backlinks JUST from syndication... Not to mention sales, opt-ins, etc.

However, from the other side of the fence. How does one transition from a $4 an article writer to one that can charge $40 an article? (Maybe TPW or Alexa can help with this question?) I often do freelance article writing in addition to my own article marketing endeavors. Should I just market myself as a $40 article writer? My plan now was to build up the clientele with intentions of charging more in the future (in theory they will know my "value" by then). Or would it be better to take on less work now and charge higher prices (like say $40) with intentions to eventually charge $100 or more (like TPW mentioned)?

Obviously, the question would assume the skills were capable of obtaining that price, so lets just pretend thats the case, lol.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Coby

However, from the other side of the fence. How does one transition from a $4 an article writer to one that can charge $40 an article? (Maybe TPW or Alexa can help with this question?) I often do freelance article writing in addition to my own article marketing endeavors. Should I just market myself as a $40 article writer? My plan now was to build up the clientele with intentions of charging more in the future (in theory they will know my "value" by then). Or would it be better to take on less work now and charge higher prices (like say $40) with intentions to eventually charge $100 or more (like TPW mentioned)?

Obviously, the question would assume the skills were capable of obtaining that price, so lets just pretend thats the case, lol.

The reality is that whatever price you currently market yourself, later when you are ready to raise your prices, few of your current customers will remain your customers.

If you increase your writing rate by even 20%, fewer than 20% of your customers will continue to employ you.

If you increase your writing rate by 1000% ($4 to $40), you will be lucky if one or two of your current customers stay with you.

The reality is that when you raise your price from single-digits to double-digits, you will be starting your business over from scratch, each and every time.

There are only two benefits in writing cheap when you start, and that benefit is building your portfolio of written works and building your reputation.

Yet, if you are only charging $4 an article to start, you would not be losing much just to focus on building a portfolio of articles to prove your worth to your future clients.

There are only three things you need to be able to raise your prices to $40 an article right now:

A Portfolio of Sample Articles;
The Confidence and Guts to Charge What You Are Worth; and
The Patience to Stick to Your Game Plan Until it Starts to Pay Off.

The third one is interesting, in that you can have two sales pages, so long as both are not on the same website.

People who pay you $4 an article will not pay you $40 an article. And those who would pay you $40 an article will never shop for writers who ask $4 an article.

Build a website to sell your writing at $40 an article, and while you are building that side of the business, keep open the door to accept $4 an article to pay the bills.

When I started out, I started at $35 an article. I continued to take work for $35 an article, while I was selling my services for $70 an article.

I continued to take work at $70 an article, while new people were being told that $95 an article was my expected rate.

I continued to take work at $95 an article, when I raised my prices to $125 an article.

And as you can guess, I continued to take work at $125 an article when I raised my rate to $150 an article.

The most important thing you need as a writer to make what you are worth is the confidence and guts to charge what you are worth.

If you do not believe that you offer at least $40 value to your customers, then your customers will not believe you either.

The level of confidence you have in your own work will leap off of the page and into the mind of the person reading your content.

Be aware that some folks will come along and try to convince you to take less than your advertised price. But you must resist the temptation to give in to the big promises.

Yes, they will promise you the moon and the stars "if you lower your price so they can hire you." But the people who do that are often just looking for a bargain this one time. They will not buy from you again.

When I was charging $95 for a single article, I did offer a discount for ten or more articles at $75 each.

People would try to buy 2 or 3 articles at $75 each. To those people, I responded with an immediate refund. I set my prices, not them.

All of those people would come back and try to get me to take their lower price. I always refused.

When they would finally agree to pay my stated price, I would refund them immediately. If they tried to cheat me, I refused to write for them on my normal pricing scale.

They would always come back and ask why I refunded them, when they chose to pay my listed rates. I would explain to them that I work for who I want to work for, and I don't want to work for people who try to cheat me.

If they would press on, I would tell them that only if they were willing to pay a premium of 20% beyond my standard rates, then and only then would I consider writing for them.

You would be surprised how many people agreed to those terms.

The convincing factor in my mind was the fact that I was confident enough to show them that I did not need their money. When you show them that they need you more than you need them, that carries power and communicates real confidence.

The last guy I did that with paid the 20% premium to get me to write for him, and he made $4000 on the first article and $400 on the second. And he paid me $150 an article to write for him. So he ended up profiting $4100 on what I did for him, regardless of what he paid me to do the work.

p.s. And as others have said, ALWAYS get paid in advance.

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Andyhenry

14 years ago

The fact that paying $40 for high quality writing seems to be high says a lot about our niche but not much else.

I've paid much more and been paid much more (thousands of dollars) for content and been very happy to.

If you go to any established offline business and asked them what they'd expect to pay to have a professional writer create an article about their business - you would not hear $40 or less...... It's just IMers that want everything for nothing and are always hoping they can get it all on the cheap.

The reason - because the people wanting cheap content generally do not have a profitable business, so they don't see the content as a valuable asset, but think of it like something they could do themselves so want it to really cheap and have someone else do it.

In reality it's a false economy since they don't really have any idea what their ROI will be and therefore have no way to tell what the value to their business is.

Hence we end up with people running around wanting it all for free because they know it won't really make them any money.

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Dave Rodman

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

The fact that paying $40 for high quality writing seems to be high says a lot about our niche but not much else.

I've paid much more and been paid much more (thousands of dollars) for content and been very happy to.

If you go to any established offline business and asked them what they'd expect to pay to have a professional writer create an article about their business - you would not hear $40 or less...... It's just IMers that want everything for nothing and are always hoping they can get it all on the cheap.

The reason - because the people wanting cheap content generally do not have a profitable business, so they don't see the content as a valuable asset, but think of it like something they could do themselves so want it to really cheap and have someone else do it.

In reality it's a false economy since they don't really have any idea what their ROI will be and therefore have no way to tell what the value to their business is.

Hence we end up with people running around wanting it all for free because they know it won't really make them any money.

You made a lot of assumptions in that post. Maybe people paying thousands are just suckers?

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Bill Farnham 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

You made a lot of assumptions in that post. Maybe people paying thousands are just suckers?

Maybe they just have different horizons.

Trying to make the case that the lowest common denominator is a good basis for patterning a successful business on leaves a few people scratching their heads, no doubt.

Just because you don't seem to fathom the worth of scaling your ROI by using higher priced content doesn't mean that those who do are suckers.

It could mean they have taken their business to a level you haven't arrived at yet.

But there are lots of folks who do participate at the level you suggest is best, and for them it may be all they will ever be able to acheive.

But that is in no way a limiting factor for others.

~Bill
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peter gibson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

I've been paid millions of dollars for articles.

Just figure that needed to be restated since we're all obviously in the presence of greatness.

EDIT: Seems someone has felt the need to edit out what I quoted above from their post. Hmmm...

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sarahjp

14 years ago

I have seen many writing job postings on the freelance sites, where the job posters state that they are only prepared to pay $1 or $2 per article, and go on to give a great list of what they expect to be done for said low payment.

I have also seen many writers bidding for this work at same low rates. I wonder if they are quality writers who are desparate to earn something, or they are not quality writers and the low pay job posters really don't know what quality is.

It comes down to a question of interpretation and opinions to some extent, I suppose, but it is rather worrying that rates so low are so very often happening.

I can see if the articles were only being used for backlinks, then quality doesn't stand out as being so important for the buyer, but the writer is still working for a very low sum.

Many blessings,

Sarah

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TiffanyLambert

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sarahjp

I have seen many writing job postings on the freelance sites, where the job posters state that they are only prepared to pay $1 or $2 per article, and go on to give a great list of what they expect to be done for said low payment.

I have also seen many writers bidding for this work at same low rates. I wonder if they are quality writers who are desparate to earn something, or they are not quality writers and the low pay job posters really don't know what quality is.

Many blessings,

Sarah

Here's the deal Sarah - there will always be buyers demanding $2 page content. And there will always be sellers willing to do it. But it won't be a long term relationship either way.

These buyers generally don't have much of a budget. Big earners don't mind spending decent money on content (as I stated before). As soon as these buyers start making more, they'll be okay spending more.

And writers initially sometimes sacrifice earnings to get the ball rolling, to get feedback, to get practice - and as soon as THEIR ball gets rolling, they'll raise their rates.

There's just a "floor" for everyone on every level. You have to decide which floor you're going to start on and then decide if you're willing to push the elevator button up or down as you set your rates.

tiff

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donhx

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

And I consider that a BARGAIN! The writer is a friend of mine and he's very good. But my point here is two-fold...

You have to know what to do with content so that the cost to have it written is an investment, not a true cost.
Work with people you know you can trust. The only way to get to that point is to engage with people. Don't be a hermit.

When you see a thread about getting $4 articles, it's usually someone pretty new. They don't get that those cheap articles are usually crap that has to be edited. That takes time. Time = money.

Even well written $4 articles (and yeah, I know there are some out there) often lack any real substance. They're just lifeless sentences strung together to fill a page. They don't inspire your site visitors. They don't CONVERT, in other words. That's what most new people don't understand. The words on a page need to achieve a goal that helps you. It's not enough to fill the page.

That's why $40 is a pittance for quality content that I know will convert.

John

I've been saying this for decades.

In my experience, most IM people have no idea what quality writing looks like, so they're happy with "lifeless sentences strung together."

IM people devalue writing, and in doing that they crimp their own oxygen hose.

All good writing has a psychological foundation. Good writing is about conveying ideas, not just words.

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donhx

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Absolutely. By extension, Google devalues the written word by quantifying and classifying it using arbitrary standards. SEO tactics breed junk articles because Google, by its nature, rewards the practice.

Google has reached its level of incompetence.

You make an interesting point. Key words are from hell, and all they do is generate the ads on which Google makes a fortune--and as IMers we get the crumbs. But then, the Internet and Google are in their infancy, and it may take another 10-20 years or more before we are able to search for "key ideas" instead of "key words."

It would be best if Google did not reward junk articles, and I think they are now trying to curtail that reward system. But, as you indicate, they'll really never be able to do it until they are able to analyze the relative value of ideas rather than just mere words.

Maybe we should start a new thread: "IM in the year 2020." What will the Internet, Google and IM be like then? After all, none of it existed at all 20 years ago (except the Internet was in the lab then). We have come a long way, but its all still pretty primitive.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Eddyjangle

I can do high quality articles, but I keep getting ripped off any advice?

Demand a higher price.

Be ready to prove your abilities.

Get paid up front.

All the best,
Michael

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donhx

14 years ago

There is nothing heroic about paying $40 for 487 words. That's just about 8 cents a word.

In the 1850's, when Edgar Alan Poe was an unknown writer, he was paid the going rate for his work, which was 4 cents per word. Back then a penny was worth something!

Too many people in IM don't actually know what they're doing, so a few cents per word seems right to them.

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Dave Rodman

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by donhx

There is nothing heroic about paying $40 for 487 words. That's just about 8 cents a word.

In the 1850's, when Edgar Alan Poe was an unknown writer, he was paid the going rate for his work, which was 4 cents per word. Back then a penny was worth something!

Too many people in IM don't actually know what they're doing, so a few cents per word seems right to them.

Which is why price is irrelevant. Are you happy with the value for the price you paid...period. Like I said, a guy that's paying $250/article for his "quality content" probably thinks that Mr. $40/articles is getting worthless garbage for content. But as long as it's suitable for your purpose, then so be it.

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donhx

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

Which is why price is irrelevant. Are you happy with the value for the price you paid...period. Like I said, a guy that's paying $250/article for his "quality content" probably thinks that Mr. $40/articles is getting worthless garbage for content. But as long as it's suitable for your purpose, then so be it.

This kind of thinking is common, but disturbing.

Lots of people are happy to wear plaid pants, a polka dot shirt and a striped coat, but they look stupid. Maybe not to themselves (such people always seem to think they have a heightened sense of style), but to everyone else. They are blind to the poor presentation they are making. In their blindness, they say, "I look great plus I got the outfit cheap on the Internet from the Philippines."

A wiser person would invest in more suitable clothing. Lacking a fashion sense, the person would know to go to a clothing store that was known for quality and had experienced sales people. They would rely on the taste and skills of the sales staff, knowing that dressing well often opens the doors of opportunity. Sure, they would pay more, but they are getting more than clothing, they are getting a look that communicates their value to others.

In writing and in fashion (and a lot of other areas too) people are their own worst enemies. They are often clueless about what is suitable.

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Richard Van

14 years ago

I think that people don't advertise it because if they did, people would not be as impressed. It's easier to just keep repeating that you have high quality content.

Well, thinking too much hurts the brain and the bottom line.

I use article writers that charge me a lot (in my language anyway). When someone like John, who knows what he's talking about, says he got an article for $40 and it's a bargain, I listen.

All you know Dave is the price. What do you know about the writer? Because here lies the majority of my point. The writer may be Dan Kennedy (NOT LIKELY) but for all you know it could be, all you have is the price. Nothing else. Hardly the basis for an arguement.

The people I outsource to, get me results. I've tried lots of $3-10 writers and I didn't get those results. I test religiously. I recently spent $90 on an article that made me the same amount but with a "zero" added to the end a week later. That's good for me.

My point is, I test. All my thoughts, are just that, what I think, which is often not right. Testing shows me what works. The result of my testing is this - Very good writers tend to charge more than not very good ones. This is common in life. That's not to say some of the $3 article writers are not stars in the making but as a general rule, I think you know what I mean.

I'm not here to tell you what works either, Dave. Only you know that.

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Dave Rodman

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Well, thinking too much hurts the brain and the bottom line.

I use article writers that charge me a lot (in my language anyway). When someone like John, who knows what he's talking about, says he got an article for $40 and it's a bargain, I listen.

All you know Dave is the price. What do you know about the writer? Because here lies the majority of my point. The writer may be Dan Kennedy (NOT LIKELY) but for all you know it could be, all you have is the price. Nothing else. Hardly the basis for an arguement.

The people I outsource to, get me results. I've tried lots of $3-10 writers and I didn't get those results. I test religiously. I recently spent $90 on an article that made me the same amount but with a "zero" added to the end a week later. That's good for me.

My point is, I test. All my thoughts, are just that, what I think, which is often not right. Testing shows me what works. The result of my testing is this - Very good writers tend to charge more than not very good ones. This is common in life. That's not to say some of the $3 article writers are not stars in the making but as a general rule, I think you know what I mean.

I'm not here to tell you what works either, Dave. Only you know that.

You're actually proving my point. I don't know the quality of the $40 this guy bought, a $12 one that someone else bought, or $2K article that another dude bought. So without know the quality or purpose of the article, how can anyone say what's a good value? They can't.

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Richard Van

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

You're actually proving my point. I don't know the quality of the $40 this guy bought, a $12 one that someone else bought, or $2K article that another dude bought. So without know the quality or purpose of the article, how can anyone say what's a good value? They can't.

Not really Dave.

You see, I know John, or I know about him. I know people that know him that I respect a great deal. They're very sucessful article marketers and writers.

I know what John can do and I know when he says an article he got for $40 was a bargain, it's just that.

The point is though, if I've bought a $12, $40 and $2.5k article and tested it, surely I am in a position to say if it's good value or not?

I've tested $2 articles up to just shy of $300 articles. Nothing like the $2k one though. From my research, from my carefully selected writers, the more they cost, the more I made. Which makes them good value, for me at least.

I can only assume you've tested the higher priced articles and when you tested them, they didn't perform.

Am I right? (I'm not arguing either Dave, just discussing. I'm trying to keep my nose clean!)

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Dave Rodman

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Not really Dave.

You see, I know John, or I know about him. I know people that know him that I respect a great deal. They're very sucessful article marketers and writers.

I know what John can do and I know when he says an article he got for $40 was a bargain, it's just that.

The point is though, if I've bought a $12, $40 and $2.5k article and tested it, surely I am in a position to say if it's good value or not?

I've tested $2 articles up to just shy of $300 articles. Nothing like the $2k one though. From my research, from my carefully selected writers, the more they cost, the more I made. Which makes them good value, for me at least.

I can only assume you've tested the higher priced articles and when you tested them, they didn't perform.

Am I right? (I'm not arguing either Dave, just discussing. I'm trying to keep my nose clean!)

No, I never said that higher priced articles don't perform. I said I have sites where I pay thousands to have content written.

I said nobody is in a position to tell others to pay more for content when
a) They don't know the price they're paying
b) They don't know the content they are getting
c) They don't know the purpose of the content.

It's like this. If someone on this forum says "What's the best day to mail?", the answer is "For me, it's Tuesday, but you should test that."

So why is it different for article writers? It's all the sudden very black and white. People will say "$10 is low quality content, whereas I'm paying $40 for high quality content".

It's one thing if he's actually showing us a $10 article he bought and a $40 article he bought, along with some stats. But he's not.

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Richard Van

14 years ago

I said nobody is in a position to tell others to pay more for content when
a) They don't know the price they're paying
b) They don't know the content they are getting
c) They don't know the purpose of the content.

I'm in complete agreement here. Why pay anything if you don't know what you're getting. I can't see any reason not to do this.

So why is it different for article writers? It's all the sudden very black and white. People will say "$10 is low quality content, whereas I'm paying $40 for high quality content".

It's not "black and white" for me though Dave. It's "does it work or not", that's where my point is coming from.

I'm also respectfully asking, do you get much from the thousands you spend on content? What are your views on the higher priced content?

For me it's simple, I test, find people that are good and re-use them. For me, the more I pay, the better my results. They are however extensively researched first.

I agree to some extent, price is irrelevant. However for me (and maybe just me) I've had far better results with certain writers and they're always higher priced.

They're just my results though, just mine. They are also only indicative of the tests I was running. Others will no doubt get diffferent results, which is why I'm interested.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

And I consider that a BARGAIN! The writer is a friend of mine and he's very good. But my point here is two-fold...

You have to know what to do with content so that the cost to have it written is an investment, not a true cost.
Work with people you know you can trust. The only way to get to that point is to engage with people. Don't be a hermit.

When you see a thread about getting $4 articles, it's usually someone pretty new. They don't get that those cheap articles are usually crap that has to be edited. That takes time. Time = money.

Even well written $4 articles (and yeah, I know there are some out there) often lack any real substance. They're just lifeless sentences strung together to fill a page. They don't inspire your site visitors. They don't CONVERT, in other words. That's what most new people don't understand. The words on a page need to achieve a goal that helps you. It's not enough to fill the page.

That's why $40 is a pittance for quality content that I know will convert.

John

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

It's one thing if he's actually showing us a $10 article he bought and a $40 article he bought, along with some stats. But he's not.

Dave: Maybe you ought to review the original post. I have included it here for the sake of simplicity.

John was talking in generalities.

He did acknowledge that you can find quality articles at $4 each, but that is an exception rather than the rule.

He suggested that in general, $4 articles have to be edited before release, which adds time to the process, and time is money. So by implication, he suggested that $4 articles seldom cost only $4.

He also suggested that by building a relationship with his writer, he is able to trust that he is getting the kind of quality he needs to make a profit from the process.

Because he can trust in the quality he gets from his writers, he is making an investment when he orders an article, rather than paying a cost.

John is advising readers that "The words on a page need to achieve a goal that helps you", rather than simply filling the page.

John is describing the principles he uses to determine whether he is getting good value from his writers.

You are talking in circles to try to elevate yourself above the masses, by suggesting that principles are not valid, unless they are backed up with specific examples.

From my perspective, that only makes sense in your mind.

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King Louie

14 years ago

This is a great thread.

I read almost every post in this thread and I'm both perplexed and amused by the replies. This is one of the reasons why I love this forum - people with different views offering valuable opinions that influence a lot of budding marketers (like me).

I'm planning to offer my writing services here but I'm a bit wary of the cutthroat competition. I want to stay away from freelancing sites because I can no longer compete with writers who are willing to work for $1 or $2 for 500 words. I used to belong to that segment of underpaid writers but I now value my time and hard work, thus I'm looking to get paid more for my time and effort. Back then, I had really no choice and I was desperate for money (I was in college).

I have a dilemma: offer relatively low rates for my services and get plenty of customers, OR place a high price tag and get only a few clients. Despite the claims of many esteemed marketers that they are willing to pay big bucks for quality content, I believe that bargain-hunting marketers outnumber the big-spending ones. In my opinion, most bargain-hunters are beginners or just starting out in IM, and so are not capable or willing to pay $40 or so for a 400-word article.

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Ken Leatherman

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Content Winner

I have a dilemma: offer relatively low rates for my services and get plenty of customers, OR place a high price tag and get only a few clients. Despite the claims of many esteemed marketers that they are willing to pay big bucks for quality content, I believe that bargain-hunting marketers outnumber the big-spending ones. In my opinion, most bargain-hunters are beginners or just starting out in IM, and so are not capable or willing to pay $40 or so for a 400-word article.

Your dilemma is one many writers face. But it can be overcome with persistence and patience. As mentioned above one of the ways around this is to continue to write for the lower price folks, while you are building your clientele that will pay you the much higher prices.

You express yourself well, from what I see and suspect you will be able to so for your clients. Get your portfolio up on the internet and don't be afraid to provide "Real Samples" of your work.

Ken

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Content Winner

Despite the claims of many esteemed marketers that they are willing to pay big bucks for quality content, I believe that bargain-hunting marketers outnumber the big-spending ones.

This has always been the case.

When Honda was the lowest price car on the market, it sold a lot of cars.

Chevrolet is still inexpensive compared to other models, and one year ago, they were still the second largest automobile manufacturer in the world.

Bargain hunters will always outnumber the people who are looking for quality. It has always been the case and will always be the case.

Originally Posted by Content Winner

In my opinion, most bargain-hunters are beginners or just starting out in IM, and so are not capable or willing to pay $40 or so for a 400-word article.

Very true.

Although the beginners outnumber the pros, there are a lot of successful marketers out there willing to pay for quality.

You would never know it if you spend all of your time hanging out in the Warrior Forum or other forums.

A buddy of mine runs a ghost writing company. He is charging $45 an article, and he is running $40,000 to $50,000 per month in volume.

During 2008, I competed in the same marketplace, with more than a dozen writers working for me. At my peak, I was charging $40 an article and running $25,000 per month in volume.

I had to get out, because I had personal family issues that required a lot of my time. I completely shut down my $40 an article ghost writing service in Dec of 2008, and I stopped taking $150 an article clients for "Bill Platt articles" in Feb of 2009.

In Nov of 2008, between the two of us, we were creating 1600 articles per month. And we were just two companies in this niche that were moderate-sized companies.

How many articles would you yourself need to write at $40 an article to make a decent living? Let's say that you wrote 4 articles a day, five days a week. That would be 80 articles per month, and it would earn you $3200 per month.

How many customers would you need to do that kind of volume? 10, maybe 20?

The market is a lot bigger than you imagine.

But if you are happy working for peanuts, who am I to tell you that you are wrong to do so? You simply enable others to do that high paid work with one fewer competitor to worry about.

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King Louie

14 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

How many articles would you yourself need to write at $40 an article to make a decent living? Let's say that you wrote 4 articles a day, five days a week. That would be 80 articles per month, and it would earn you $3200 per month.

How many customers would you need to do that kind of volume? 10, maybe 20?

The market is a lot bigger than you imagine.

But if you are happy working for peanuts, who am I to tell you that you are wrong to do so? You simply enable others to do that high paid work with one fewer competitor to worry about.

I can write up to 5,000 words per day if the articles are about topics that I'm already knowledgeable about. When I started writing articles about gambling topics, I was getting paid $2.50 per 400-word article. I didn't complain because it was big money for me at that time. So at 10 articles per day, I would earn $25. Not bad for a college kid living in a country where the minimum hourly wage is more or less $2.

Now I'm thinking about offering my writing services for $10 per article. So that means I stand to earn $100 per day if I can write 10 articles per day, assuming that I get constant work. That sums up to $3,000 per month if I don't get lazy and take day offs.

However, I'll spend a lot more time in crafting a $10 article than a $5 one, due to the fact that I have to deliver the quality expected of a more "expensive" article. So I'll estimate that I can write just 5 $10 articles per day.

I think that writing 5 $10 articles per day is a better option for me than writing 10 $5 articles. I might earn the same amount of money, but I get to write less.

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peter gibson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dave Rodman

I think that people don't advertise it because if they did, people would not be as impressed. It's easier to just keep repeating that you have high quality content.

Really, I don't have a stance on paying a lot or a little for articles. I look for the article quality I want (for the purpose) and if I feel it's worth the value, then I pay them.

People talk about the price of articles in absolutes. As if there is a threshold between low-quality and high-quality. And as if everyone is using articles for the same purpose.

I have several technical sites where I pay thousands of dollars for technical writers to write content. Do I think that is suitable for everyone that has a site? No, it's just that there is a low supply of writers that can do that type of work.

I think it's funny how people have this kind of elitist attitude when it comes to the price they pay for articles. Great, you paid $40 for "high quality" articles and another one paid $10. What would you say to the person that pays $250 articles and thinks that your "high quality" articles aren't really that high quality.

The cost of an article and "quality" are mutually exclusive. If that is your point, I'm pretty sure that bit of awareness hasn't given anyone here an awful ice cream headache trying to ponder.

First you're on about how redundant this thread is, and now you're knee deep in a debate about how "quality" can't be determined with a price tag, which is not only obvious but completely not the point of the OP. Then you further this stance saying that certain people may or may not be complete idiots for paying quality money for a quality effort. I mean, your argument is what exactly? That one can find good articles cheaply? Most of us are quite aware of that epiphany.

There's no doubt a piece of sheer brilliance can be picked up at 5.00 for 500 words, just like I can pick up a $20.00 bill occasionally on the street in front of the bar I frequent. Thing is, it's a helluva lot more difficult finding said quality when looking for it where people have to write for pennies - because that's as high as their skill set reaches. It's much easier to find quality from those who are already commanding a larger paycheck from their work, and have the resume, clients and reputation to back up their price.

Which all goes back to the point that "quality" writing can only truly be determined by it's consumer. It's a subjective art form after all. For some, quality is damned hard to find @ 5.00 per. It's that simple. For some, reading an article spun by my 5 year old is "quality". Each to his own. And with that said, I find it really hard to deduce any real reason behind the things you've been saying here.

Would I turn down a piece of brilliance because it was 10 or 15.00? Of course not, but I'd also be helping that author get out of such sewers - as it would only help me to help him/her.

People who can extract creativity and a unique voice from the written word will always rise to the top of the game and be afforded the luxury of, I dunno, being paid what they are worth. Why? Because in the end, most folks prefer their reading from the folks who know how to write it, and most folks appreciate effort when it's combined with talent.

Philippines, Kabul, Philly, or Phuket, it truly doesn't matter, a good writer @ 5.00 per will not be stuck at that pay grade for long, because there's a market for excellence, and not everyone feels it's necessary to capitalize on a person's environment or desperation.

I guess I'm just confused by the things you're assuming people here have been saying. Because I haven't seen this attitude ...

People talk about the price of articles in absolutes. As if there is a threshold between low-quality and high-quality. And as if everyone is using articles for the same purpose.

...once in this thread.

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Michael Oksa

14 years ago

It's also possible that it was a bargain because it was a very specific type of article, the writer understood what his friend wanted, and it may have been delivered very quickly...and still maintained the high level of quality Zeus was looking for.

Just a guess.

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Michael

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summer07

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

And I consider that a BARGAIN! The writer is a friend of mine and he's very good. But my point here is two-fold...

You have to know what to do with content so that the cost to have it written is an investment, not a true cost.
Work with people you know you can trust. The only way to get to that point is to engage with people. Don't be a hermit.

When you see a thread about getting $4 articles, it's usually someone pretty new. They don't get that those cheap articles are usually crap that has to be edited. That takes time. Time = money.

Even well written $4 articles (and yeah, I know there are some out there) often lack any real substance. They're just lifeless sentences strung together to fill a page. They don't inspire your site visitors. They don't CONVERT, in other words. That's what most new people don't understand. The words on a page need to achieve a goal that helps you. It's not enough to fill the page.

That's why $40 is a pittance for quality content that I know will convert.

John

Cheap content usually goes hand in hand with short-term 'speculative' IM business models which involve finding loopholes and gaming the system.

The business plan is to spend as little as possible to exploit the loophole before the 'system owner' finds out, then get out fast. The site owners who make money this way don't mind abandoning websites filled with $2 articles when the loophole closes. In fact, that's part of the exit strategy and is figured into the cost of the plan up front.

Heads up: Many of the 'hot new products' on Clickbank are based on these kinds of systems. They're published right after the 'guru' has exhausted the loophole and it's about to be closed.

But John's talking about a long-term, asset- building business model that uses content publishing to attract and retain customers.

It's not a new business model, and has been used successfully for decades in industries like finance, real estate, health care, insurance -- any product or service that benefits from consumer education within its marketing cycle. And writing to entertain to capture attention is BIG business - just take a look at the success of Sports Illustrated, based on pure recreation.

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

The fact that paying $40 for high quality writing seems to be high says a lot about our niche but not much else.

I've paid much more and been paid much more (thousands of dollars) for content and been very happy to.

If you go to any established offline business and asked them what they'd expect to pay to have a professional writer create an article about their business - you would not hear $40 or less...... It's just IMers that want everything for nothing and are always hoping they can get it all on the cheap.

The reason - because the people wanting cheap content generally do not have a profitable business, so they don't see the content as a valuable asset, but think of it like something they could do themselves so want it to really cheap and have someone else do it.

In reality it's a false economy since they don't really have any idea what their ROI will be and therefore have no way to tell what the value to their business is.

Hence we end up with people running around wanting it all for free because they know it won't really make them any money.

Andy's point is interesting. We can see in this thread that people are quibbling about the difference of paying .01 cent vs .10 cents per article.

Yep. Only in IM does this kind of argument take place.

In the world outside if IM, there are plenty of established (long-term) publications -- which earn their revenues from advertisers (sounds a lot like 'niche marketing' to me...) -- that pay $1 per word and up:

And that list is the result of only a 5-minute web search.

Originally Posted by Gail_Curran

Please don't misunderstand. I believe good writers are worth every penny. I just want to see the content so I can model it (or try to) myself. Writers can't improve themselves in a vacuum, without feedback and exposure to quality.

Gail, good writers are also avid readers. Read some of the articles published in the online versions of the magazines I listed above. Or read top-of-the-line blogs like Copyblogger, Problogger or others in your niche.

We're surrounded by great quality writing online!

Read Wikipedia, for that matter. It's not as entertaining as reading Seth Godin's blog. But at least the basic model is to source the content and verify the sources. That's one way you can tell good quality writing from the chaff -- it's not just based on hearsay and opinion.

So to me, the take away from John's post is that if you're interested in building a long-term business, invest in content.

The cheap stuff is meant for a different use. Kind of like the difference between using paper plates for a picnic, and serving a traditional holiday meal on fine china. Bon appetite!

Audre

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kjblitz

14 years ago

Well, it all depends. Good articles if you are trying to sell something. Bad articles if you are trying to get people to click on the...hmm...blue addy-waddy text links!! LOL! =P

It comes down to how you monetize your sites...adsense or affiliate.

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Richard Van 14 years ago

Originally Posted by kjblitz

It comes down to how you monetize your sites...adsense or affiliate.

Or the myriad of other options.
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AdmiralGloom

14 years ago

I recently had a client more than willing to pay more than that. He did it because I was honest and he trusted me.

He was simply frustrated with foreign writers and after he saw my work he was more than content.

Sorry if that sounds like a self promotion but really the one thing you need if you want to succeeded is passion.

And not just overall. I mean on every single piece of work you do.

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LegitIncomes

14 years ago

Guys, I completely AGREE with the OP, $40 for a high quality article is ABSOLUTELY worth it. I really wish more people would start to understand this, and perhaps the more Google keeps chipping away at the junk content, the more people will start to understand.

Heck, even a $300+ PER ARTICLE is worth it. Look at the online magazines such as popular mechanics, wired, etc... you think those writers get $40 per article? Absolutely NOT, they get a lot more than that!

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Sandra Martinez

14 years ago

Originally Posted by LegitIncomes

Guys, I completely AGREE with the OP, $40 for a high quality article is ABSOLUTELY worth it. I really wish more people would start to understand this, and perhaps the more Google keeps chipping away at the junk content, the more people will start to understand.

Heck, even a $300+ PER ARTICLE is worth it. Look at the online magazines such as popular mechanics, wired, etc... you think those writers get $40 per article? Absolutely NOT, they get a lot more than that!

The "problem" is the ROI. You need a good marketer, able to choose a good niche and a good keyword, able to do his/her homework in terms of ROI and who actually knows what to do with the article to have a successful outcome.

Those who are not so good, need to cut expenses, and in most cases it actually leads to a closed road. A brilliantly written article cannot solve a bad business decision.

When article marketing started, around 5 years ago (?), a friend of mine sent me a link to the product and I got it. Wrote one article for a pregnancy website I just had started out. It brought tons of traffic, but I was (and probably still are - I know what has to be done, but refuse to do it) a very bad marketer who were not able to create a flow inside the website, and had too much stuff for free to just click on my links. Not one opt in, not one affiliate sale.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Sandra Martinez

When article marketing started, around 5 years ago (?)

I have been doing article marketing since 2000.

Willie Crawford has been doing it since 1995.

The article marketing "only for back links" started in 2005.

Before 2005, everyone wrote articles to get syndicated and exposure to large audiences. Since 2005, some of us still do that.

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Sandra Martinez

14 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

I have been doing article marketing since 2000.

Willie Crawford has been doing it since 1995.

The article marketing "only for back links" started in 2005.

Before 2005, everyone wrote articles to get syndicated and exposure to large audiences. Since 2005, some of us still do that.

Woww you are even older than I am.

Do you remember the product that started bum marketing? I can´t remember the name. I do remember the guy talking about writing as going to an ATM, it was fun.

From my perspective you only "write" to do syndication, it is a waste of time and effort to really write for back linking. :rolleyes:

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Richard Van

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Sandra Martinez

Woww you are even older than I am.

Do you remember the product that started bum marketing? I can´t remember the name. I do remember the guy talking about writing as going to an ATM, it was fun.

From my perspective you only "write" to do syndication, it is a waste of time and effort to really write for back linking. :rolleyes:

Bills much younger than he looks Sandra.

He started younger than most of us

Travis Sego wasn't it? All that Bum marketing malarcky?

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Sandra Martinez

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Richard Van

Bills much younger than he looks Sandra.

He started younger than most of us

Travis Sego wasn't it? All that Bum marketing malarcky?

Hi Richard

he looks around 42, lots of energy, a bit shy, and he is a lil bit pissed at my attitude for some reason. LOL

And the guy CAN write, oh yeah...

Travis Sego? not sure, I think this guy I read was before that. I really can´t remember. It was before the "shortcuts tsunami".

Sandra

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Richard Van 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Sandra Martinez

he looks around 42, lots of energy, a bit shy

Sandra

Oh Bills going to love you!

42, lots of eneeeergy.... Shy!

My sides actually hurt from laughing.
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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Sandra Martinez

Woww you are even older than I am.

Do you remember the product that started bum marketing? I can´t remember the name. I do remember the guy talking about writing as going to an ATM, it was fun.

From my perspective you only "write" to do syndication, it is a waste of time and effort to really write for back linking. :rolleyes:

The first person to use the term "bum marketing" was Travis Sago, circa 2005.

I write hoping for syndication in major newletters and websites. If my article doesn't get picked up by the major publishers, I will still get a number of back links from smaller publishers.

But if I do get picked up in major publications, I will get access to a large audience and some high-value back links from authority websites. And, I will still get back links from a lot of smaller publishers too.

You can write for "back links only". Or you can write articles with a higher ambition in mind.

Regardless of how you write your articles, you will get back links. Back links are never "totally worthless".

But if you write for "back links only", you will never achieve your higher potential of getting published in authority newsletters with access to tens or hundreds of thousands of readers, and authority websites that have thousands of unique visitors per day.

I prefer access to large audiences, because my articles are usually effective in convincing the reader to take the actions I want them to take.

On those days that my article gets published in a major newsletter and it generates traffic for me that converts into sales in the five-figures range, I dance on the clouds.

When I only get back links out of my article, I move on to the next article with the ambition to reach the larger audiences I want the next time around.

Originally Posted by Sandra Martinez

Hi Richard

he looks around 42, lots of energy, a bit shy, and he is a lil bit pissed at my attitude for some reason. LOL

And the guy CAN write, oh yeah...

Travis Sego? not sure, I think this guy I read was before that. I really can´t remember. It was before the "shortcuts tsunami".

Sandra

Sandra: 45, with lots of energy, a bit shy in person and really outspoken online, and certainly not the least bit angry with you for any reason.

The only person before Travis Sago I can think of is Jason Potash who created the article submission software called Article Announcer.

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drmani 14 years ago

Originally Posted by tpw

I have been doing article marketing since 2000.

Willie Crawford has been doing it since 1995.

Curious, I looked up some of my own work that got syndicated, and found many
that were from 2000, too, including:

Building a Content Rich Website

'ReDesign' is not a Dirty Word

Navigation - Make it Easy to Get Around

Interesting, too, these articles have 'Reader Rating' tools

And I also discovered, with pleasant surprise, that these pages have PR4 and 5
do-follow links back to my site!

All success
Dr.Mani
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theultimate1

14 years ago

I'd love to see some articles that get sold for $30-40+ for under 500 words a piece.

Additional Question: Would you pay an Indian writer, given that he delivers amazing content, something like that? I asked an expert IMer once (on another site), and he said, "sorry mate, since you're from India, people may not be willing to pay you American rates." It's kinda disheartening as to why my geographic location hampers my earning potential when I can do as good a job, if not better, as some very good writers in Western homes.

Yea, I get it... Using words like "kinda" won't earn me bigger dollars per article; but for now... let's just focus on the Question, shall we?

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Richard Van

14 years ago

Originally Posted by theultimate1

Additional Question: Would you pay an Indian writer, given that he delivers amazing content, something like that? I asked an expert IMer once (on another site), and he said, "sorry mate, since you're from India, people may not be willing to pay you American rates." It's kinda disheartening as to why my geographic location hampers my earning potential when I can do as good a job, if not better, as some very good writers in Western homes.

I don't care where you're from or who you are.

If you can write an article and get me the return I'd see from a $120 article writer I use in the States, I'd pay you $120 an article.

I couldn't care less where you're from. We'll both do nicely out of it.

Personally I'd pay you the same. That seems fair to me.

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Mike McAleer

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

And I consider that a BARGAIN! The writer is a friend of mine and he's very good. But my point here is two-fold...

You have to know what to do with content so that the cost to have it written is an investment, not a true cost.
Work with people you know you can trust. The only way to get to that point is to engage with people. Don't be a hermit.

When you see a thread about getting $4 articles, it's usually someone pretty new. They don't get that those cheap articles are usually crap that has to be edited. That takes time. Time = money.

Even well written $4 articles (and yeah, I know there are some out there) often lack any real substance. They're just lifeless sentences strung together to fill a page. They don't inspire your site visitors. They don't CONVERT, in other words. That's what most new people don't understand. The words on a page need to achieve a goal that helps you. It's not enough to fill the page.

That's why $40 is a pittance for quality content that I know will convert.

John

I agree that the higher quality the content the better it will convert and that you can pay more as long as it will bring you a higher profit.

If you pay someone 4 bucks, yes it will get you an article and save you time but it does not mean it will convert the visitor in any way.

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caseycase

14 years ago

I agree with the ROI argument...however,

Do not simply assume that because someone offers an inexpensive service that it is low quality. Take a look at reviews and samples, then decide.

My articles are cheap. Really cheap for the quality. I make very little per article. However, I do make good money on volume. I have lots of repeat customers and a good system to manage the flow of orders. (A.K.A. "Logistics." Thanks UPS.).

John, you just downed everyone out there like myself who does not inflate their prices, saying that even the best inexpensive articles are "...lifeless sentences strung together to fill a page."

Sure, I could probably sell my articles for 3-4 times as much. But why? So I get more money in my pocket and price other hard-working Warriors, who may not have $40 to spend, out of the market for good content?

I do understand your argument. If you make $400 from a $40 article, then that is a great deal! However, do not simply assume that you could not have made $400 from a $4 article.

I know a company that charges $4500 for installing a Wordpress template. Does that make them any better than the guy who does it for $20? I doubt it. (I also understand that this might not be the best analogy, as articles are not templates, but I think you see my point.).

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peter gibson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by theultimate1

Additional Question: Would you pay an Indian writer, given that he delivers amazing content, something like that? I asked an expert IMer once (on another site), and he said, "sorry mate, since you're from India, people may not be willing to pay you American rates." It's kinda disheartening as to why my geographic location hampers my earning potential when I can do as good a job, if not better, as some very good writers in Western homes.

Yea, I get it... Using words like "kinda" won't earn me bigger dollars per article; but for now... let's just focus on the Question, shall we?

Personally speaking, if you have chops it doesn't make a difference if you're in or from India, Somalia, Bangor-Maine, or Middle frikin Earth. I pay writers what they ask for IF the material warrants what they charge. As has been the case with me in the past, if a writer undercuts their own work and I see it as superior quality, I will add bonuses liberally. Having said that I don't think many entry level marketers would understand what I'm doing as anything other than ridiculous.

I'd also suggest you consider that if your potential customers are the people in a marketing forum, you're at a disadvantage starting out. The ART of quality writing is lost on a substantial amount of people in this industry.

For some in the IM industry, it's far easier for the folks to grasp how to get traffic, links, leads and sales through a technical formula (SEO, PPC, JV's, e.t.c...), then it is to fathom how a series of exceptional quality articles can generate the same - if not better results.

Marketers can learn how to input data and push buttons, they can buy roboform, SENuke, AMR, and fill in profiles all day. Explaining data to these folks is easy. But there are many marketers can't write their way out of a wet paper bag, so the entire concept of the quality article is all but lost. A well written article is a skill-set some can't ever hope to learn or understand. The difference is similar between absorbing calculus and absorbing jazz music. For some both can't be achieved.

That's why a fair enough portion of marketers have mild heart attacks when we mention paying more than 10.00 for an article. I mean there truly are people who could see a great article next to a candy bar wrapper and find the wrapper more interesting.

Just as a heads up, if I were a writer, IM would be the very last place I would ply my craft.

Originally Posted by theultimate1

I'd love to see some articles that get sold for $30-40+ for under 500 words a piece.

Just search Warrior or google for peeps like Alexa Smith, Kay King, Jenn Dize, Steve Wagenheim, or google Naomi Dunford, Irene Mckay, Johnny B Truant, Sonia Simone. These are all cats writing stuff that, unless I'm tragically misinformed, rake in premium dough for their skill as word-smiths.

Hell, look over some of the cats in this thread, they write with the kind of skill worth plenty of money.

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AwakenedImagination

14 years ago

It's been my experience that quality generally comes with a premium. Yeah, you might luck up and get a decent article written when you bottom feed but its hit and miss at best.

There's something refreshing when you encounter a writer who desires to be the best at what they do. When you learn how to turn information in dollars then how much you pay for an article with become negligible.

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arttse

14 years ago

I am certain most internet marketers would pay a premium price for an article if they knew how to maximise the return on their investment. Unfortunately most IM's wouldnt know what to do with a $40 article - hence why they prefer to pay $5 per article.

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JamesPenn

14 years ago

I've just paid $125 for an article I don't even own the copyright to.

But I still expect it will make me more than my investment.

I think the time of paying for $4-5 articles is nearing an end, as shown by the damage to EzineArticles in the past few weeks.

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arttse

14 years ago

I dont believe google slapped Ezine because the articles were poorly written or poorly researched. If you do some research you will discover that the reason why they slapped them was because these articles were associated with topics that google dislikes such as penis enlargement, **** berry and the like. These topics have saturated the internet in recent times.

Originally Posted by JamesPenn

I've just paid $125 for an article I
don't even own the copyright to.

But I still expect it will make me more than my investment.

I think the time of paying for $4-5 articles is nearing an end, as shown by the damage to EzineArticles in the past few weeks.

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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by arttse

I dont believe google slapped Ezine because the articles were poorly written or poorly researched. If you do some research you will discover that the reason why they slapped them was because these articles were associated with topics that google dislikes such as penis enlargement, **** berry and the like. These topics have saturated the internet in recent times.

That was a good article by the PotPie Girl, but I believe it was far from definitive in its analysis.

It proposed an interesting perspective, but not much more than that.

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Sandra Martinez

14 years ago

Originally Posted by arttse

I dont believe google slapped Ezine because the articles were poorly written or poorly researched. If you do some research you will discover that the reason why they slapped them was because these articles were associated with topics that google dislikes such as penis enlargement, **** berry and the like. These topics have saturated the internet in recent times.

The layout also affected the outcome, the big chunks of adsense before the text.

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mojojuju

14 years ago

But that crappy $4 article can be spun into thousands more crappy articles. That's good value.

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Doug Wakefield 14 years ago

Originally Posted by mojojuju

But that crappy $4 article can be spun into thousands more crappy articles. That's good value.

Just sounds like a bunch of crap to me.
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- CraigRC 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Doug Wakefield
  
  Just sounds like a bunch of crap to me.
  
  0 x 0 = 0
  
  Crap x Crap = Crap
  
  If only they had taught Algebra like this when I was a kid...maybe I wouldn't have had to become a writer.
  
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  mitoshthewarrior 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CraigRC
  
  0 x 0 = 0
  
  Crap x Crap = Crap
  
  If only they had taught Algebra like this when I was a kid...maybe I wouldn't have had to become a writer.
  
  Not really true, I think people are ignoring the fact there is a lot of different uses for content. Primarily there is conversion copy and fluff copy. Conversion copy you want to convert a visitor to a sale, mailing list, or even just a comment. Fluff copy can be used on Web 2.0 pages and low tier Article Directories/Networks just to build backlinks, these articles will likely never really be read by real humans anyway. I wouldn't pay $40 for an article to submit to AMA/UAW/AR, I would pay that for a blog post, website copy, or anything I put my name on it.
  
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Jordan Kovats 14 years ago

Originally Posted by mojojuju

But that crappy $4 article can be spun into thousands more crappy articles. That's good value.

Eating at McDonald's or any other fast food place, night after night or week after week may be good value too. Ask your Dr. about the long term effects of that 'good value' choice.

I hear stuff like, "you're expensive" all the time. And....what's your point? Do you want results? Then that is what it costs. Don't like it...go somewhere else, and come back to me when that doesn't work.

The OP was probably thrilled that the article was ONLY $40.
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developyourlife

14 years ago

I've heard of people using the crappy 4$ articles and throwing them on site and using it's boringness to direct people towards the Adsense on the page. The more interesting your article is the less chance they are going to click off the page, but if content is something you are looking for then this is good. I guess it just matters what you plan to do with what you paid for.

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Originally Posted by developyourlife

I've heard of people using the crappy 4$ articles and throwing them on site and using it's boringness to direct people towards the Adsense on the page. The more interesting your article is the less chance they are going to click off the page, but if content is something you are looking for then this is good. I guess it just matters what you plan to do with what you paid for.

What about when they finish your great content? People always need something to do "next," even on sites with superior content. So yes, believe me I know what you mean about Adsense sites and less-than-stellar content. But, for most online marketers, the rewards in terms of authority, trust, and list building are numerous when you choose to put up really good content.

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netlexis

14 years ago

Originally Posted by developyourlife

I've heard of people using the crappy 4$ articles and throwing them on site and using it's boringness to direct people towards the Adsense on the page. The more interesting your article is the less chance they are going to click off the page, but if content is something you are looking for then this is good. I guess it just matters what you plan to do with what you paid for.

Wrong! The ideas is to create interesting, compelling content that gets your reader excited that he'll want... need to click on the ad.

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sam12six 14 years ago

Originally Posted by netlexis

Wrong! The ideas is to create interesting, compelling content that gets your reader excited that he'll want... need to click on the ad.

Exactly!

I don't know how typical I am of internet browsers, but I open links in a new tab. If the page is crap I escape by closing the tab. I've never heard anyone say they use ads to escape from bad pages, though I've read several courses and heard people who claim this happens (these people are usually the same ones who get on forums and brag about their 1% click-thru rate while I'm biting my tongue (or sitting on my hands) and wondering whether I should mention that I've never had a site that averaged less than a 10% CTR).

An effective adsense content page is really no different from an effective affiliate content page. Your goal is to engage the reader and get him or her to start thinking about how a certain product might improve life, then - Voila!! There's a convenient link right there where they can go and get such a product. The only real difference is that adsense pays less for everyone who looks and affiliate programs pay more, but only for those who actually buy. In a perfect world, the profit of one versus the other is a wash.

Edit: Ummm, this is on topic because because quality content in IM terms is content that compels someone to do what you want.
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aaronngoh

14 years ago

After reading through this thread reply, I realize that there are two classical believe about providing content

1) Mass distribution and try to dominate the search engine. Most of the time people just care about speed and distribution.

2) Quality content and focus on promoting the content to the mass

Is there a right or wrong approach?

Let the market tell you and I guess strategy number 2 made more sense to me.

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Tina Golden 14 years ago

Originally Posted by mojojuju

But that crappy $4 article can be spun into thousands more crappy articles. That's good value.

Good value if your goal in life is to be a s**t spreader.
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tpw

14 years ago

Originally Posted by aaronngoh

After reading through this thread reply, I realize that there are two classical believe about providing content

1) Mass distribution and try to dominate the search engine. Most of the time people just care about speed and distribution.

2) Quality content and focus on promoting the content to the mass

Is there a right or wrong approach?

Let the market tell you and I guess strategy number 2 made more sense to me.

Both methods do work.

And you can generate revenue and profits with both models.

But myself, I have generated far more sales using the second than the first, by a factor of +1000x.

In my own little mind, I would rather spend more money to create an article that I can use to make a lot more money, rather than to spend less dollars to make some money.

It is a matter of selecting the model that will allow me to maximize my earnings potential against the money spent to create the content.

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Sandra Martinez

14 years ago

Originally Posted by aaronngoh

After reading through this thread reply, I realize that there are two classical believe about providing content

1) Mass distribution and try to dominate the search engine. Most of the time people just care about speed and distribution.

2) Quality content and focus on promoting the content to the mass

Is there a right or wrong approach?

Let the market tell you and I guess strategy number 2 made more sense to me.

Those are the two main mindsets at work (there is still a third one),

red mindset: the first group are "salespeople" by nature, they just want something to sell and the rest are just pieces to put together to attain an outcome. This group will try to cut costs in any place possible, some don´t even like to read. Of course among salespeople you have different levels. Those on high levels that deal with a more educated and wealthy crowd, will seek quality; but only because it is what their clients want

blue mindset: the second group are the ones who enjoy writing and reading and bad quality just feels like a kick in the stomach (literally). These will look for quality because they love it and find the way around to make it profitable

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sam12six 14 years ago

While it's true the topic has been beaten to death on the forum, I think this is the best actual discussion I've seen on the subject. I've never outsourced writing because I enjoy it so I can't really say what the typical $4 article looks like next to the typical $40 article. On the other hand, I can get an idea of it from communicating with clients who have:

The first writing project I took was through Elance. The articles were $6 each. When I finished the rough draft for the first one, I shot it to the client to be sure we were on the same page in terms of what direction to take with the article. He messaged me back raving about how it was the greatest article he ever paid for, so I told him I was glad he was happy with it and now that I was sure we were on the same page, I'd go back and proofread it to eliminate any typos or awkward phrasing and then send him the final draft. You know what his response was?

"Holy Crap!! That wasn't the final draft?!? I've already edited it and posted it on my site. LOL!! I've never paid for an article that I didn't have to edit."

The next few clients had similar comments. It got to the point where once I won a bid, I'd immediately send the client a message explaining my process and telling him or her, "Do not edit and post the rough draft! You paid for an article that was ready to post and that is what you will get. The rough draft is just for us to be sure we see eye-to-eye on the tone of the work." Even that message was often greeted with astonishment.

That told me a lot about my competition at that price point. Between that and the fact that the lower the price, the more I ran into clients who wanted an article on the trail of tears, a video of myself walking it, and freakin' soil samples from the trail, it didn't take me long to raise my prices.
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Daniel Harper

14 years ago

I do some content writing myself and charge $100 for 500 words.

Yes, some people are happy to pay that.

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theultimate1 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Harper

I do some content writing myself and charge $100 for 500 words.

Yes, some people are happy to pay that.

Where do you find them? Please tell me. (or , maybe)
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- Daniel Harper 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by theultimate1
  
  Where do you find them? Please tell me. (or , maybe)
  
  It's difficult, but not impossible.
  
  I found a client on Elance that threw me $10,000 in content writing in one year.
  
  But here's the thing--this was a guy who had a well established business and understood the need for quality content.
  
  The stuff I was writing for him wasn't getting slapped up on some B.S. blog created to make some Adsense revenue. The content I was writing WAS his product. More specifically, it was a subscription newsletter.
  
  If you want to make good money as a content writer, you have to find people who have a legitimate business model and who are delivering value to their customers.
  
  Writing for goofballs who overpaid for a Get-Rich-Quick product isn't the way to make money.
  
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Mike Grant

14 years ago

Ah, the "More you spend, the better the product" fallacy.

Always brings a good little chuckle.

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peter gibson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

Ah, the "More you spend, the better the product" fallacy.

Always brings a good little chuckle.

Care to illuminate 1 post in this thread where what you've just said is being given as advice?

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Mike Grant

14 years ago

Originally Posted by peter gibson

Care to illuminate 1 post in this thread where what you've just said is being given as advice?

Care to reread the OP?

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peter gibson

14 years ago

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

Care to reread the OP?

Been there, read it, done that. Nothing said in the OP to even slightly justify your overtly generalized observation, unless I'd finished a bottle of Jack Daniels before reading it.

Moreover, if you gleaned this broad stroke...

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

Ah, the "More you spend, the better the product" fallacy.

...from the OP, I can certainly see why a $5.00/500 word article would contain all the quality you require.

Having said that, don't get me wrong. Maybe you're just in an incredibly lucky circumstance - having such quality available for so cheap. It happens, all-be-it rarely, but it happens.

Tell you what, how about you PM me the email of your 5.00 writer. If I consider their work to contain the quality I and many others here speak of, I'll offer them a 1000% increase in their wage immediately, for a contract of 50 articles to start, regardless of their country of origin or standard of living.

And I'll go one better if there really is a writer out there with superior skills being exploited so cheaply, I'll have them get in touch with my regular writer to scoop up some of the work she has to turn away every day (at her normal rates of $80 - $250.00 per article).

If you truly do have a good writer working at that price, lock them in a room and don't let them out. Otherwise it's not gonna be too long before they come across a thread like this and realize their being seriously underpaid.

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Mike Grant

14 years ago

Originally Posted by peter gibson

Been there, read it, done that. Nothing said in the OP to even slightly justify your overtly generalized observation, unless I'd finished a bottle of Jack Daniels before reading it.

Moreover, if you gleaned this broad stroke...

...from the OP, I can certainly see why a $5.00/500 word article would contain all the quality you require.

Having said that, don't get me wrong. Maybe you're just in an incredibly lucky circumstance - having such quality available for so cheap. It happens, all-be-it rarely, but it happens.

Tell you what, how about you PM me the email of your 5.00 writer. If I consider their work to contain the quality I and many others here speak of, I'll offer them a 1000% increase in their wage immediately, for a contract of 50 articles to start, regardless of their country of origin or standard of living.

And I'll go one better if there really is a writer out there with superior skills being exploited so cheaply, I'll have them get in touch with my regular writer to scoop up some of the work she has to turn away every day (at her normal rates of $80 - $250.00 per article).

If you truly do have a good writer working at that price, lock them in a room and don't let them out. Otherwise it's not gonna be too long before they come across a thread like this and realize their being seriously underpaid.

If you need me to hold your hand through the OP for your understanding, you're beyond my help.

The OP has even reinforced his meaning on the previous page, solidifying exactly what I said.

I'd never give out the contact info for any of my writers for reasons I'm sure you understand. My main writer I've been using for over 2 years. The other 3 have been nearly a year and a half. Still going strong.

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sam12six

14 years ago

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

Ah, the "More you spend, the better the product" fallacy.

Always brings a good little chuckle.

My interpretation of the OP was "If you get a product you can profit from, it doesn't matter what you spend."

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Mike Grant

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sam12six

My interpretation of the OP was "If you get a product you can profit from, it doesn't matter what you spend."

If that was the case, why would the majority of his post talk about $4 articles?

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sam12six

14 years ago

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

If that was the case, why would the majority of his post talk about $4 articles?

The gist of the discussion has been that while dropping $40 for an article won't guarantee you don't get crap, dropping $4 is nearly a guarantee that you will. Obviously there are exceptions but most people's experience I've spoken to privately tend to feel this way.

In short, if you're a writer, you don't give a damn what your articles are worth because you're planning to trade your time for content anyway. If you're outsourcing, you're planning to trade money instead of time. Either taking the time to edit and rewrite crap articles or weed through the vast majority of poor writers to find that one-in-thousands writer willing and able to do quality work for that price defeats the purpose of outsourcing.

Even if you do manage to snag a reliable writer who accepts payment in paperclips, it's only a matter of time until he or she realizes the work is worth more and you end up paying a decent price or starting the whole time wasting process again.

For me personally, I think there are basically 3 price scales for online content:
$0 - $10 per 500 words
$10 - $100 per 500 words
$100+ per 500 words

Those at the first level are a crapshoot but anecdotal evidence says you're more than likely throwing away the money unless your business model is spin-n-spam.

The second level is also a crapshoot but anecdotal evidence says your chances of getting a product that you can use without investing extra time is much greater because writers know higher expectations come with the higher price point. That makes this the logical price range to focus on for the marketer who considers his or her time to be more valuable than the time required to fix bad content.

The third level is paying for prestige of the author or specific knowledge and research.

I think of the perceived value of content as: content (original, coherent, mistake free writing) + premium (entertainment, selling ability, knowledge). The absolute cheapest writers seldom deliver the content and almost never deliver the premium. If you have someone who does, enjoy it while you can because eventually they are going to realize what their work is worth.

What someone is willing to pay is an individual choice but sooooo many newbies are seduced by the concept that they can start a six figure a year business by investing pennies that they make things harder on themselves. Someone who goes into it understanding that paying a little more for effective tools (including content) increases the likelihood for success has the upper hand from the get-go.

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Mike Grant

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sam12six

The gist of the discussion has been that while dropping $40 for an article won't guarantee you don't get crap, dropping $4 is nearly a guarantee that you will. Obviously there are exceptions but most people's experience I've spoken to privately tend to feel this way.

In short, if you're a writer, you don't give a damn what your articles are worth because you're planning to trade your time for content anyway. If you're outsourcing, you're planning to trade money instead of time. Either taking the time to edit and rewrite crap articles or weed through the vast majority of poor writers to find that one-in-thousands writer willing and able to do quality work for that price defeats the purpose of outsourcing.

Even if you do manage to snag a reliable writer who accepts payment in paperclips, it's only a matter of time until he or she realizes the work is worth more and you end up paying a decent price or starting the whole time wasting process again.

For me personally, I think there are basically 3 price scales for online content:
$0 - $10 per 500 words
$10 - $100 per 500 words
$100+ per 500 words

Those at the first level are a crapshoot but anecdotal evidence says you're more than likely throwing away the money unless your business model is spin-n-spam.

The second level is also a crapshoot but anecdotal evidence says your chances of getting a product that you can use without investing extra time is much greater because writers know higher expectations come with the higher price point. That makes this the logical price range to focus on for the marketer who considers his or her time to be more valuable than the time required to fix bad content.

The third level is paying for prestige of the author or specific knowledge and research.

I think of the perceived value of content as: content (original, coherent, mistake free writing) + premium (entertainment, selling ability, knowledge). The absolute cheapest writers seldom deliver the content and almost never deliver the premium. If you have someone who does, enjoy it while you can because eventually they are going to realize what their work is worth.

What someone is willing to pay is an individual choice but sooooo many newbies are seduced by the concept that they can start a six figure a year business by investing pennies that they make things harder on themselves. Someone who goes into it understanding that paying a little more for effective tools (including content) increases the likelihood for success has the upper hand from the get-go.

Meh, a lot of assumptions. While tons of people haven't had great results with $5/500 word articles, there are tons that have. You can hire content writers in the Philippines and India that are English teachers while typically speaking and writing more proper than most Americans.

Maybe my experiences are abnormal, but I once paid $350 for 5 articles. Was it good? Absolutely. Was it better than my author writer or my PH English teacher writing works? Debatable. Was it worth having 5 articles instead of the 70 articles had I used my typical writers? Absolutely not.

The average wage in India is $145/month. The average wage in the Philippines is under $100/month. They don't have to charge US/UK fees for high quality work.

I wouldn't fault the price as an indication of quality, rather I'd fault the employer for not doing their due diligence.

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drmani

14 years ago

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

Maybe my experiences are abnormal, but I once paid $350 for 5 articles. Was it good? Absolutely. Was it better than my author writer or my PH English teacher writing works? Debatable. Was it worth having 5 articles instead of the 70 articles had I used my typical writers? Absolutely not.

There's a distinction between a "well written" article and an
"informative and valuable" article.

An English teacher can churn out the first kind, but not always
the second kind.

@sam12six - Very nice points in this post. Thanks!

For me personally, I think there are basically 3 price scales for online content:
$0 - $10 per 500 words
$10 - $100 per 500 words
$100+ per 500 words

Those at the first level are a crapshoot but anecdotal evidence says you're more than likely throwing away the money unless your business model is spin-n-spam.

The second level is also a crapshoot but anecdotal evidence says your chances of getting a product that you can use without investing extra time is much greater because writers know higher expectations come with the higher price point. That makes this the logical price range to focus on for the marketer who considers his or her time to be more valuable than the time required to fix bad content.

The third level is paying for prestige of the author or specific knowledge and research.

All success
Dr.Mani

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Mike Grant

14 years ago

Originally Posted by drmani

There's a distinction between a "well written" article and an
"informative and valuable" article.

An English teacher can churn out the first kind, but not always
the second kind.

@sam12six - Very nice points in this post. Thanks!

All success
Dr.Mani

There's a distinction because "well written" is subjective pending on end goals. If I buy an article and it does not serve it's purpose, whether it be informative or to push an action, it is not well written.

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Zeus66

14 years ago

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

While tons of people haven't had great results with $5/500 word articles, there are tons that have.

Can you define "great results?" I'll say this... If I just wanted something marginally informative to use in article blasts to get backlinks from article directories, of course I'd not spend $40 per article. The purpose of those articles isn't to get human eyeballs on the content... it's to get search engine programs to spot and give credit for the links back to my pages.

What I was referring to in my OP, though, was content written for a page on my site. In this case, I needed the content to convert visitors into action takers. That's a whole different kettle of fish. Those people need to have the right buttons pushed AND they need to see me as something of an authority in that niche AND they need to trust me.

Good luck getting all that accomplished from your $5/500 words writer. If you find one of those, guard him/her with your life.

EDIT: I also needed super-fast turnaround time on this project. How many $5 article writers make you wait a long time and/or flat-out disappear after taking the job? Difference between professional and amateur.

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Mike Grant

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Can you define "great results?" I'll say this... If I just wanted something marginally informative to use in article blasts to get backlinks from article directories, of course I'd not spend $40 per article. The purpose of those articles isn't to get human eyeballs on the content... it's to get search engine programs to spot and give credit for the links back to my pages.

What I was referring to in my OP, though, was content written for a page on my site. In this case, I needed the content to convert visitors into action takers. That's a whole different kettle of fish. Those people need to have the right buttons pushed AND they need to see me as something of an authority in that niche AND they need to trust me.

Good luck getting all that accomplished from your $5/500 words writer. If you find one of those, guard him/her with your life.

EDIT: I also needed super-fast turnaround time on this project. How many $5 article writers make you wait a long time and/or flat-out disappear after taking the job? Difference between professional and amateur.

I know what you were referring to. My writers have a <24 hour turnaround if 5 or less articles.

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Michael Oksa 14 years ago

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

I know what you were referring to. My writers have a <24 hour turnaround if 5 or less articles.

How about 47 minutes?

~M~
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- Mike Grant 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Michael Oksa
  
  How about 47 minutes?
  
  ~M~
  
  Depends if they're familiar with the topic, demographic, etc. If they are familiar and they're online, then yes.
  
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Daniel Harper

14 years ago

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

Ah, the "More you spend, the better the product" fallacy.

Always brings a good little chuckle.

I think you have it backwards.

Garbage in = garbage out.

I agree that an expensive product/writer/whatever doesn't necessarily mean you're getting a good value.

But...

Paying someone $4 for a 500 word article means you're getting whatever **** they cut and pasted from a hasty Google search and rewrote in 7 minutes.

Guaranteed.

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Mike Grant

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Harper

I think you have it backwards.

Garbage in = garbage out.

I agree that an expensive product/writer/whatever doesn't necessarily mean you're getting a good value.

But...

Paying someone $4 for a 500 word article means you're getting whatever **** they cut and pasted from a hasty Google search and rewrote in 7 minutes.

Guaranteed.

That's funny. And wrong.

My content writer is American, native English, published author, and I pay $5/500 words. Perfect English, grammar, and they're well-researched.

Not everyone writes for a paycheck, some do it just for the love of writing.

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Daniel Harper

14 years ago

Originally Posted by mgtarheels

That's funny. And wrong.

My content writer is American, native English, published author, and I pay $5/500 words. Perfect English, grammar, and they're well-researched.

Not everyone writes for a paycheck, some do it just for the love of writing.

Okay. Why not post one of these articles so people can judge for themselves?

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Mike Grant 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Harper

Okay. Why not post one of these articles so people can judge for themselves?

Yes, because revealing my niches to prove such writers exist is exactly what I plan on doing! :rolleyes:
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GeorgR.

14 years ago

But here's the thing--this was a guy who had a well established business and understood the need for quality content.

The funny thing is, i/we could "logically" explain why $100 for an article would indeed be feasible...giving that a web site or blog with good quality content can make a MULTITUDE back in ROI.

But the reality is that such people like that client are VERY rare, respective hard to find.

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frankfihn

14 years ago

Contrary to popular belief, paying more doesn't ultimately make it better and there is certainly a point where the returns diminish. What spending more probably does make is it easier to find better quality with a larger budget but that doesn't mean cheaper doesn't work either. There is no set rule says that "I paid a lot, ergo I get a lot." We sell real estate investing courses in real life and let me tell you the $5-10k weekend seminars are usually full of marketing hype and rarely deliver real ROI.

Having said that, the OP seems to be satisfied with their purchase and they feel the ROI is worth so more power to them.

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gerrymo

14 years ago

How do you find a good author? How do you know when you have found one?
Does it mean testing every $40 author and waiting to see which one gives you a solid ROI ?
If I charged $40 to write you an article, would you buy? You would probably be wasting your money...but I don't know. Maybe I am a good author, how do I even know that?

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laurenswuyts

14 years ago

Well everyone got scammed once in their life, bu the only thing you can do is to learn from it

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JackPowers

14 years ago

No need for black and white discussion.

Most new IM'ers wouldn't, as another Warrior pointed out, have a clue what to do with a $40 article. I certainly didn't starting out!

$40 article as a guest post/article on a niche leader could generate thousands in profit from referrals and backlinks or it could bomb completely.

Think about it, one single article on a PR7 website in your niche would probably do more for your rankings than 5000 cheap backlinks (I excaggerate - maybe). And what's better is that it's a one time payment.

Is it good business if you only have small affiliate sites? Probably not, but for an authorithy site great value!

Giving great content away for free (almost) is THE best backlink strategy. You just need to identify the kind of website/blog that would be open to such a proposal and have enough value. Again, I spend a considerable amount of money every month renting links and it sucks.

So many ways of leveraing great content in IM!

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Zeus66

14 years ago

UPDATE: The $40 content I put up last night has produced one sale ($37) already. Conversion rate is about 12.5% (1 sale from 8 unique visitors). Way too early to draw any firm conclusions, but I've almost broken even after about 24 hours.

I've never tested the typical $5 stuff on one of my sites that converted at more than a fraction of 1%. That is, unless I substantially "fixed" the original so that it actually did what I needed it to do. Might as well have written it myself.

So, again, for those who continue to try to force me into their own box...

If you want backlinks or you don't care what your site visitors think of you and your site (perfectly fine for some business models), more power to you paying $4 or $5.

If you sell your own stuff or do affiliate marketing on your blog, etc., then find someone professional who you can give explicit instructions to (and I'm not talking about simple things like how many words or keyword density). A "real" writer will ask you what your purpose is for that content. They want to know what your specific goal is and they'll write to achieve that end result.

Again, someone PM me a $5 writer who can do all of that and not need babysitting or major editing of the deliverables, and I'm all over it. I'll give them a ton of business.

I won't hold my breath.

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Mike Grant

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

UPDATE: The $40 content I put up last night has produced one sale ($37) already. Conversion rate is about 12.5% (1 sale from 8 unique visitors). Way too early to draw any firm conclusions, but I've almost broken even after about 24 hours.

I've never tested the typical $5 stuff on one of my sites that converted at more than a fraction of 1%. That is, unless I substantially "fixed" the original so that it actually did what I needed it to do. Might as well have written it myself.

So, again, for those who continue to try to force me into their own box...

If you want backlinks or you don't care what your site visitors think of you and your site (perfectly fine for some business models), more power to you paying $4 or $5.

If you sell your own stuff or do affiliate marketing on your blog, etc., then find someone professional who you can give explicit instructions to (and I'm not talking about simple things like how many words or keyword density). A "real" writer will ask you what you're purpose is for your content. They want to know what your specific goal is and they're write to achieve that end result.

Again, someone PM me a $5 writer who can do all of that and not need babysitting or major editing of the deliverables, and I'm all over it. I'll give them a ton of business.

I won't hold my breath.

I've 3 (one would probably need a small bit of handholding), but you're not getting them :p

Congrats on the sale.

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thedog 14 years ago

I'm done with $4 articles. I've tried a few, and the quality has been pretty bad.... I don't expect a masterpiece for $4 but, their ad, in the warrior for hire section, guaranteed them to be accepted to ezinearticles.

Full of spelling and grammar mistakes, what a pain, going through each one.. I had to send it back to them fore revision, complete waste of my time.

I'm going to all my own writing from now on, even the difficult niches.

As for $40, my first reaction was, that's a bit steep... but, if it's good quality, why not?

I'm a graphic designer, and would have no problem charging this per hour, this is a fair freelance rate for a designer, so, why should it be any different for a professional writer?

I think the fact that there's so many $4 and $5 article writers for hire, it's skewed things a bit.

People want the earth for nothing these days, I mean, look at some of the wanted ads on fiverr, there's people who want whole websites made for $4!
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mojojuju 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

So, again, for those who continue to try to force me into their own box...

Relax. You need not feel like anyone is trying to force you into any kind of box.
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Barry Unruh 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

A "real" writer will ask you what your purpose is for that content. They want to know what your specific goal is and they'll write to achieve that end result.

The sad thing is writing becomes easier IF you know all of that up front. Knowing the purpose gives direction in writing instead of just "shooting in the dark".

Keywords and density can all come after the fact of writing with purpose, but not usually the other way around. Two completely different mindsets when you sit down to write.

One thing I do notice in John's posts is his very clear objective with his article purchase. He is buying for CONVERSIONS. He is not buying to fill the Internet with backlinks to his site for the sake of backlinks. A clearly different type of purchase over what many article buyers are seeking.

Always consider your objectives first. Then you can make a wise purchasing decision.
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Paul Myers

14 years ago

Hmmm. That would put the Gettysburg Address at... $22.14. The Ten Commandments would come in at a whopping $25.83.

Hey. Those are WSO prices!

Paul

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