Grammar + spelling (((sigh)))

Thank you!

"The Diary of Adam and Eve" is one of my favorites by Twain, but I must admit it would have taken me a while to guess it.

My next guess was going to be Anthony Burgess, but not Ernest Hemingway, because I can't imagine him even suggesting a word be repeated.

All the best,
Michael

<in unison>

HI MICHAEL!

Michelle, Again, quoting from Merriam-Webster Online: Credible - offering reasonable grounds for being believed.

So, one's credentials have more to do with grammar than with experience or knowledge? That's the implication involved here. In some cases, it's not even left as an implication, but rather stated as a fact.

I'm going to tell you a little secret. My web page design skills suck. I use plain black text on a plain white background. I rarely use graphics more complicated than an order button, and often not even that. I send plain text emails to my subscribers, and they tend to be long.

All of these are things some people say are unprofessional. I'm fine with that. Somehow, the message still seems to get across.

Maybe it really is a matter of personal preference?

James, This is the intelligent objection. And I'd be willing to bet that broken syntax is even more annoying to you.

This is why you need to do the best you can in your writing, folks. Not because some rule zombie says so, but because it's good for your reader.

Again, though, don't let imperfect skills stop you. Don't let the wombats tell you that you're stupid because you haven't mastered your craft yet. They have their own dirty little secret...

Very few real wombats are any good at the most important part of writing: Connecting with their readers.

One thing I always find funny with these threads is that the wombats think I'm arguing with them. I am not. There is no sense in debating a robot, and that's what most wombats are, when it comes to this specific topic.

I'm talking to the folks who haven't gotten there yet. The people who are working at communicating, and finding the going tough because of the extra potholes created by people with nothing better to do than criticize. And to the people who may not have considered that grammar and spelling are not reliable measures of a person's intelligence or experience, but could be led astray by the Grammar Cops.

Wombats just make excellent bad examples.

I also think it's humorous to read the claims that arguments in favor of understanding context and environment are meant to promote or "excuse" careless writing; to suggest that it's somehow unimportant. Read these threads when they come up. You'll often find the people who write with the most impact siding with the inexperienced writers, and against the wombats.

There's a reason for that.

Is some of the sloppiness due to laziness or unclear thinking? Sure. Of course. But hardly all, and the people who make those mistakes for other reasons deserve encouragement and education, not disparagement and dismissal.

Most people who've made the effort to achieve any reasonable level of competence at the trade will usually remember that.


Paul

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I see errors in sales copy, I start to wonder if the problem might also carry over into other aspects of the seller's business; i.e., whatever it is they're trying to sell to me. In my opinion, it speaks to the attention to detail that should go into any project. Most people don't spend a lot of time on details on one thing, but not another.

I bought a WSO from a well-known member of this forum who is ESL. It was information I needed and he has a good reputation here. I knew when I bought it that English (American or any other flavor) is not his first language. I bought it anyway.

For me, the videos were difficult to comprehend, not only because of his accent, but because he stumbled through the verbal presentation of the material. I went to the transcript. Whoever transcribed the videos did it nearly verbatim and I found the transcript as difficult to follow as the videos, only I could get through it faster.

As much as he knows and as helpful as he is on these forums, I won't buy another WSO from this member.

I'm sure his WSO sales were pretty solid. Did he communicate what needed to be communicated? Yes; but for me, it was a struggle to comprehend the message. There's a reason for defined language structure - it facilitates communication. When I spend money, I don't expect to have to struggle to comprehend the message.

Sheryl, I am not in the least bit surprised. Gack! No, ma'am. Most assuredly not.


Paul

Ralph It's likely to take one of us greybeards to get it. Hell, you'd have to be... what? Probably 39, just to stand a chance.


Paul

You must spend a fortune on Windex.



~M~

here is the thing:

language is a construct created to communicate people

if the communication takes place, then it is serving the purpose

what it looks from my South American´s gal perspective is that you don´t like what the dude has to say, so you are hanging from the small print.

if the dude were giving you great value, awesome ideas, spectacular strategies you can implement in your business, would you care?

Hi Paul.

No misunderstanding here, good sir.

Sanctimony can not logically be mitigated by competence in this case, because were there competence, there would be no hypocrisy, and thus no sanctimony. Nothing to mitigate. Your sentence was a logical train wreck because you didn't understand the nuance of the word you were using.

Hence my comment about the irony meter. Normally, I wouldn't care in the slightest. But of all the things to muck up after sending a poster scurrying away in tears for the mistakes you couldn't resist pointing out...

Funny ol' world, sometimes.

For those who may not yet grok in fullness, the purpose of playing "Pin the tail on the wombat" is simple: To remind the Grammar Cops that we're all human, all prone to error, and all more dependent on communication than on prescription.

When you deal with a broad spectrum of people from diverse societies and cultures, understanding requires more than mere comprehension. It calls for an appreciation of the effort made by the various people involved to overcome their differences in education, background and language in order to share and learn and grow together.

Wombats are a festering pustule in the body cooperative. The cure is to reflect back on them the scorn, ridicule and shame they would apply to those who don't meet their lofty goal of mindless following. The appropriate method of administration is simple correction and mild humor.

True wombats have a strong aversion to laughing at their own foibles.

The rules of grammar exist for a simple and clear purpose: To enable people to understand each other's messages. To communicate effectively. If the rules get in the way, throw the damned book out and focus on communicating.

If someone's grammar and syntax are so bad they can't make themselves understood, their messages will be deleted here. English is, as Oxbloom suggests, the lingua franca. There is, however, a rather wide gulf between 'incomprehensible' and 'a little off.'

Most of us are at least a little off.


Paul

If the person is composing an ad for writing services, I might understand that. But would I really lose "all credibility" in any other niche because of a misspelled word?

What would my spelling error have to do with my knowledge of internet marketing? Or crocheting? Or any other topic unrelated to my use of the language?

Touche!

Yes, I have a bad habit of beginning my sentences with prepositions. That's for emphasis and a choice I deliberately make.

Again, I say, consider the audience and MEDIUM. (It's a FORUM.)

And that's all I have to say about that.

Michelle

TW, I cannot believe you just said that!

Apropos of nothing....

I'm going through some serious financial difficulties right now (long story) and it's NOT good. A lot of people are going through financial difficulties though (lost jobs, etc.) and we see a lot of "Help! SOS! How can I make $10,000 in 24 hrs?" type posts.

I was engaged last year, but we broke up. (Yes, I lost my job AND my engagement broke all in the same year.) I was just thinking yesterday that if I'd gotten pregnant, I'd be having a baby right about now. THIS MONTH! Yikes!

Financial difficulties aside, I'm thankful for small favors. Things COULD be worse.... I'm not even on anti-depressants!

Michelle

Timothy, you do remember the saying about making assumptions....? (Oops - I put an extra period in my ellipses - shoot me for such an egregious error! )

Sarcasm aside, I think you are making a huge leap here to assume a writer's overall attitude is "whatever" based on a grammatical / spelling error. If you go through life making assumptions like that on a regular basis, you are missing out on so much (not to mention, you're being really anal). As someone mentioned above, the error could have been made because the person was tired, in a hurry, or multi-tasking. Did any of those things cross your mind before you jumped to your above-stated conclusion?

Some of the sharpest and most respected people on this forum (in terms of their IM knowledge, experience, and contribution) don't have perfect grammar or spelling. I won't name names, but several come to mind as I type this, and I'm pretty sure their bank accounts aren't suffering as a result.

Should we all (like you) assume they have no credibility because they don't spend a lot of time proofreading each post or email they write or making sure their products are 100% error-free to satisfy (to use Paul's term) the "wombats"? Well, IMO, that would be foolish. Sure, I notice the errors, but I keep on reading because the content is valuable. What I've learned is that there are a lot of brilliant people in the world who really don't give a flying rat's a** about proper grammar and perfect spelling. I can live with that. It may be annoying at times, but not so much that I write them off and refuse to respect the fact that I can learn much from them.

As for Paul's statement - "Very few real wombats are any good at the most important part of writing: Connecting with their readers." That is very true. People who are anal and always critical have a very difficult time relating to (or getting along with) others - and their writing will typically reflect that fact.

Btw, feel free to dissect my grammar and spelling in this post. There may be some errors - it's late and it's not really my highest priority at the moment.

Timothy,

Just out of curiosity... Which version of "English" do you think rules your "land?"

If you're more concerned about form than substance, you're not fitting company for civilized people, sir. Mrs Wombat awaits.


Paul

IN Mexico, people from US are called "gringos", in Argentina "gringo" is for Italians, and they call people from US "yankees" with the "y" pronounced as "sh"

I think it's the context that matters more than any set of hard and fast rules.

Spelling and grammar may not be important if you're writing a casual email to a friend (depending on who your friends are), but you wouldn't include things like "Dear Sir, I beleave I will be an asset to you're company becoz..." in your cover letter if you want to be taken seriously.

Likewise if you're writing a strategy guide for the latest Call of Duty and your target market is 14-25 year old males, then they'll probably be more tolerant of spelling/grammar errors than if you're writing to a corporate audience.

Also, if you're selling your services as a writer, then people will expect you to have exceptional spelling/grammar. Depending on what kind of writing you're doing, the bar for what's considered acceptable will rise or fall.

Note: Any grammatical or spelling errors in this post are completely intentional and there to make sure you're paying attention.