Can We Be Businesslike?

14 years ago

Well said John. To a large degree it's a symptom of society in general. Everyone seems quick to find fault and denigrate others.

Warrior Forum and its members take great pride in protecting its members from scammers and spammers, maybe that same passion can be focused on those who enjoy flaming others for no legitimate reason.

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linkbeasts

14 years ago

On a side note I have seen some very un-business like answers to questions posed on this forum of late, such as someone telling someone to " collect bottles " to turn in for a refund. There is nothing business like about walking the streets like a hobo collecting bottles. ( No offense to those unfortunate enough to be doing so ).

On the topic of business like as well I am finding spammy links in threads to questionable websites, usually from warriors who have not been on the forum long and who's posts counts are abysmal.

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CDarklock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by linkbeasts

I have seen some very un-business like answers to questions posed on this forum of late

There is very little out of your reach when you are willing to do what others are not.

It is because people like you sniff at the idea of collecting bottles "like a hobo" that there are bottles out there to collect. You look at them and see garbage. You see indignity, if you stoop to pick them up. You see social disapproval that violates your personal self-image.

But some people look at bottles and see an opportunity.

Here's some food for thought. The next time you go into a public toilet and stand at the urinal, look inside. Most of them have a little plastic mat in the bottom, and a "cake" of deodoriser on top of it.

Somebody invented those things.

Somebody looked at a urinal and thought those things needed to be invented.

And that somebody did not say to himself "I simply refuse to make products for people to piss on."

Do you know how much money is spent on those things every year?

Billions of dollars.

With a "B."

On things for people to piss on.

There are good, honest, hard-working men out there pumping septic tanks and hosing down porta-potties, and they make a pretty damn good living... because people like you simply refuse to do it.

So don't get me wrong. I'm glad you refuse to do it, because it makes their jobs that much more lucrative.

But it doesn't make you any better than them.

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"The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers

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linkbeasts

14 years ago

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Tom B

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by linkbeasts

This is a business forum.

This is a marketing forum. Check out the title at the top.

It is not a " business " to walk around collecting 5 cent bottles to return for a deposit.

It isn't a business to write and submit articles all day yet we have many posts talking about it.

There are far better ways to make money fast then that.

I don't know about that. I can go around and clean up neighborhoods, recycle and make money in one day. Sounds pretty fast and eco friendly. Please let us know what new people can do to make money faster then taking bottles back for instant cash.

Collecting 5 cent bottles to return is NOT a business.

Neither are most of the threads on this forum.

Only I know what I see, not some random guy on a forum. Again this is a business forum I come here to read about business, advice about business, business facts in the online world, not about how to collect bottles.

You are on the wrong forum. This forum is about marketing. That is only one aspect of business.

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linkbeasts

14 years ago

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Tom B

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by linkbeasts

go educate yourself with the search button.

Some people would say that is a "snarky" remark.

Also as one can see I wasn't offensive in my OP. Was your above post intended to HELP anything ?

It sure was. I am very direct and a lot of people take offense to that. I am not intending to be offensive but sometimes people are fragile. Kind of like your response in this thread.

Hell, people are so fragile on here you can't even discuss and/or debate something without people accusing you of fighting.

I really think you need to educate yourself on business. I am still trying to figure out how to treat marketing like a business when it is an aspect of business.

I see a lot of threads where people need money quickly. Recycling bottles is a great way. If they are too ego driven to do something like that then that might be the reason they are in the financial mess.

I don't think you are the right person to talk for everyone in terms of why they're here.

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linkbeasts

14 years ago

Sadly I am guilty of replying to negative posters, when I should have used my better judgment and refrained from doing so. Ive been online long enough that I should have avoided feeding the trolls.

For those who disagree with me on weather or not collecting bottles by hand is an appropriate business to discuss here, more power to you, you are free to do so. There is no right or wrong or absolute , only differing views. I am free to hold my view as you are yours. Its okay that we agree to disagree as we have done so respectful of one another.

Some people would like to make it a personal issue over someone having a differing view..... again more power to you, me I am going back to making money. I erred in even bothering to reply to negative posts, with people taking an opposing view personally. I have since corrected that by just deleting the posts.

Lessons I learned here that replying to things we view as negative only make things worse. Also that one should never have to defend ones view, just simply state it and to not vilify someone for having a view you may or may not disagree with.

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Sandra Martinez

14 years ago

Originally Posted by linkbeasts

Sadly I am guilty of replying to negative posters, when I should have used my better judgment and refrained from doing so. Ive been online long enough that I should have avoided feeding the trolls.

Sorry, but in this case... I think you´ve got it all wrong and you are passing big time a growing opportunity.

Caliban and Thomas are giving you GREAT marketing advice, and they are being amazingly generous (and patient actually).

Look, I´m not a big marketer. Heck! I´m probably not even a marketer. But I have been in business living from the cashflow I´m able to generate for several years now.

I don´t know what your situation is, but for what you show it is not the case.

When you are in business, to preserve the cashflow becomes more important than pride. And there is no small change.

I have done websites for 4K, and I have done websites for 200 bucks. I have written books for 80 bucks the page, and I have written ebooks for 8 bucks the page. Same quality. Why? the cashflow. I don´t generate income, my kids don´t eat. Period.

And there is also a spiritual side to the equation, whether you accept wealth or you don´t. And wealth comes in many shapes and colors, oftentimes in forms we didn´t dream about.

And at every step of the way, you have two choices: you welcome prosperity or you don´t.

If to pick up those bottles give you more than you had before, then to do it is to accept prosperity in your life. While you do it, you can understand the limitations of this form of prosperity and look for a more efficient form. And it is ok too.

Please, put your hurt pride aside and reread. You will see...

Sandra

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Steven Wagenheim

14 years ago

Lately John? This kind of rudeness has been going on since I've been here
at least and probably long before I got here.

Honestly, some of the people here act like 3rd graders and that's actually
an insult to 3rd graders because some of them have more manners.

It's one of the reasons why I don't hang around here and post as much as I
used to.

That and I'd rather be playing video games, mtg or hanging out in the
recording studio.

Having said all that, when I do come here I try to block out all the nonsense
and focus on just helping those who need it.

At the end of the day, and when all is said and done, the other stuff
just isn't important and those people will probably end up being the
losers that they're destined to be.

What goes around comes around.

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linkbeasts

14 years ago

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Tom B

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by linkbeasts

Its okay that we agree to disagree as we have done so respectful of one another.

Like calling people trolls when you don't agree with them? :rolleyes:

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linkbeasts

14 years ago

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Tom B

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by linkbeasts

You are not a troll thomas. I might not always agree with you or you I but that Is fine. I didn't call any trolls by name. They know who they are. Like those who presume to post that they know what a person thinks and see's for example, when only that person can in fact know what they see or do not see or what they themselves think or not, unless said person is some mystic psychic.

From wiki on what a troll is:

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2] In addition to the offending poster, the noun troll can also refer to the provocative message itself, as in "that was an excellent troll you posted". While the term troll and its associated action trolling are primarily associated with Internet discourse, media attention in recent years has made such labels highly subjective, with trolling being used to describe intentionally provocative actions outside of an online context. For example, recent media accounts have used the term troll to describe "a person who defaces internet tribute sites with the aim of causing grief to families."[3][4]

Trolls can be costly in several ways. A troll can disrupt the discussion on a newsgroup, disseminate bad advice, and damage the feeling of trust in the newsgroup community.

Dude, you changed your post. You quoted me and made several trolling comments about what I posted.

Cmon! I saw it and decided to not respond. You replaced it with the red comments everyone sees now.

Don't worry, it isn't a big deal to me. You seem like a nice enough guy. My main point is you will always piss someone off no matter how big your kid gloves are.

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linkbeasts 14 years ago

Lets get this thread back on topic Me and you spoke via PMs the entire forum doesn't need to see back and forth between us . As I said your an alright guy and I stand by that.......even if we will sometimes agree to disagree Further postings on this is just silly.

I think we can all agree we should try to stick to topics, give good advice, not post about other warriors in a negative manner or call out peoples names or be disrespectful of one another. There will always be trolls, I have been away from this forum for a year now and forgot about trolls ( I consider it trolling whenever someone posts something negative about someone else or posts anything inflammatory such as declaring to a community what another member thinks, see's and feels. )

PS I am man enough to admit when I am wrong and correct it. The edited post was a self corrective action on my part. You Thomas are not in any way a troll and I stand by my statement that you are a decent guy.

Tone does not come through type. Lesson learned. Things can easily be misread. I try and avoid topics which are sensitive for just that reason.

Ps Thomas your advice here is golden:

I think we all can take some responsibility in how we handle comments on this forum. Something I continue to work on every day. Sometimes I win and sometimes I fail.

I really don't want some anonymous person on a forum to dictate how I feel.
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CDarklock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by linkbeasts

I didn't call any trolls by name. They know who they are.

otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Notice how we started out talking about mutual respect for one another.

And you said certain types of suggestions here were "unbusinesslike."

And I basically said that wasn't very respectful.

And now we're talking about trolls!

Specifically, whether I am a troll! Because you didn't call me by name... but you made specific reference to something only I said. Which is just as unambiguous an identification, so you lose your "not naming names" ribbon and get two for flinching. Because whether you said my name or not... you did, in fact, call ME a troll.

Which, let's face it, I am. Because this thread is already derailed. We're not discussing mutual respect anymore. We're just watching the train wreck of you getting indignant over the idea that I think you're a dick.

I respect your right to be a dick, of course, but you should also respect my right to say "you're a dick."

OOPS, that was actually on-topic, and I'm supposed to be trolling.

I'm REALLY bad at this. Who was your troll coach? (Dammit, you probably found him on 4chan /b/ and don't know his name.)

I'll let the almighty Wil Wheaton sum this up.

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"The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers

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JohnMcCabe 14 years ago

Some of the best business people I've met were so blunt that they could leave you spitting nails and flirting with an aneurysm. Yet when it came time to do the job, they were incredible.

Some of the worst business people I've ever met were incredibly polite and affable, but thoroughly disappointing when it came to results.

There's a difference between calling your shots and being snarky. If you've ever been to a high-end French restaurant wearing the 'wrong' clothes, and dealt with a snippy headwaiter, you know it's quite possible to be both perfectly courteous and obnoxiously insulting at the same time.

I didn't see the thread that seems to be generating the heat here, but it sounds like the "collect bottles" answer was to a different question than the poster actually asked.

linkbeasts, I don't know you from Adam's off ox, but your word choices sure seem to look down on doing things like collecting bottles for quick money. Words like disease-ridden and hobo, the notion that any bottle you might find is tainted with hepatitis, that anyone collecting bottles is somehow incredibly unfortunate, all hint at an attitude that doing so is somehow beneath a 'proper business person'.

The only difference between an individual collecting cans and bottles to recycle and a multi-billion dollar corporation like Waste Management is scale...
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Jill Carpenter

14 years ago

Originally Posted by linkbeasts

You mistook what I wrote. This is a business forum. It is not a " business " to walk around collecting 5 cent bottles to return for a deposit. There are far better ways to make money fast then that.

And I never said I was better then anyone, thanks for trying to put words in my mouth bub. Again this is a business forum. Collecting 5 cent bottles to return is NOT a business.

As someone else stated, this is an internet marketing forum from what I understand.

But back on that issue, collecting bottles is a business for some. Does it generate income? Yes.

As to the thread you said it was missappropriately used in - I can't speak on that.

Originally Posted by linkbeasts

I think we can all agree we should try to stick to topics, give good advice, not post about other warriors in a negative manner or call out peoples names or be disrespectful of one another. There will always be trolls, I have been away from this forum for a year now and forgot about trolls ( I consider it trolling whenever someone posts something negative about someone else or posts anything inflammatory such as declaring to a community what another member thinks, see's and feels. )

Well, sometimes there are exceptions to this rule. Such as times when someone makes a downright blanket statement about something with no facts or figures to back it up and it is stated as "fact" - such as things like collecting bottles for return is not a business. :rolleyes:

lol, yes - I am a trouble maker.

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Sandra Martinez

14 years ago

Originally Posted by linkbeasts

There are way better ways on this forum Sandra Martinez then risking catching Hepatitis C or worse on bottles. Telling a newbie to skip investing 50 bucks and give up on IM to collect bottles is NOT great marketing advice, nor will it ever be. Its not about pride or ego its about being professional and business like.

There is a search button on this forum that is a gold mine. There are better ways and better advice to give then to tell someone to " give up " , surrender and collect disease ridden bottles for a living. If you think that's great marketing advise to tell someone to collect bottles instead of pursue IM or a better venture that is sad. Again the whole bottle thing that you people want to ride me on was in regard to some newbies question of how to invest $50.00 into IM ( or any online venture ) and find some success, being told to give up and collect trash. That is not the type of thing people come here for. I have yet to see one post here asking about how to collect disease ridden bottles for 5 cents a pop or how to turn that into a viable business. I am sure there must be a forum for that but surely this is not that forum.

It is a sad day indeed if fellow warriors think telling some newb to give up on online success and collect trash is valid and helpful advice to a posed question, then rake the one over the coals who voices an opinion that this is poor advice (without calling out the advice givers name, which I did not do).

PS I know full well about preserving cashflow. I too have had hardships. I would be a heck of a lot worse off if I took someones advise to " give up " and collect peoples refuse at 5 cents a pop. I know full well the responsibility of feeding a family, keeping a roof over ones head. I am not arrogant nor unknowing of what it means to struggle, but I have dug myself out of the problem thanks to solid advice that I have picked up on this very forum. I need 1k fast ? Not an issue, thanks to some fellow warriors sharing there methods I can do so ( and I learned these methods free from the search tool, used judgment on if the way was valid or not, gave it a go and succeeded, and guess what? I didn't have to risk catching Hep C to do it )

Its okay that we agree to disagree as we have done so respectful of one another.

mmm I didn´t see that episode, so I don´t know. When you have time, could you point me to the thread? It looks like the person could have received a more efficient advice.

I took the bottles´ issue more as a concept than a physical thing. Wayne Dyer is one of the authors I read a lot. He mentions that when he was a kid he was the king of prosperity while the other kids where broke, because he would pick up the bottles of his neighbors and sell them. That prosperity was never an issue for him.

The bottles are a powerful concept if you think about it. The ability to see opportunities where others see problems. This is what Caliban was talking about in another thread where he was answering to you. Or at least this is what I saw in his answer.

And this is where Thomas, I think, was going on this post too.

Actually adsense is, in certain form, the pick up bottles method of internet marketing. The LTV is a couple of cents. A lot of people did a lot of money with it.

Sandra

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Tom B

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Sandra Martinez

And this is where Thomas, I think, were going on this thread too.

I can't speak for Caliban, but I was talking about doing what it takes to be successful.

If you need money for hosting or domains then that is a quick solution instead of sitting on your butt complaining.

Too get back to John's point.

I see some snarky responses and I also see some responses that were taken the wrong way. I have taken comments the wrong way as well.

It isn't because people were trying to be rude.

I think we all can take some responsibility in how we handle comments on this forum. Something I continue to work on every day. Sometimes I win and sometimes I fail.

I really don't want some anonymous person on a forum to dictate how I feel.

I started posting less because of some of the stuff happening. That just means I am not in control and need to rectify that within myself. I love this place and the people I met on this forum have helped me grow both professionally and personally.

I made some lifelong friends here and will not let any snarky remarks change that.

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Sandra Martinez

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I can't speak for Caliban, but I was talking about doing what it takes to be successful.

If you need money for hosting or domains then that is a quick solution instead of sitting on your butt complaining.

Too get back to John's point.

I see some snarky responses and I also see some responses that were taken the wrong way. I have taken comments the wrong way as well.

It isn't because people were trying to be rude.

I think we all can take some responsibility in how we handle comments on this forum. Something I continue to work on every day. Sometimes I win and sometimes I fail.

I really don't want some anonymous person on a forum to dictate how I feel.

I started posting less because of some of the stuff happening. That just means I am not in control and need to rectify that within myself. I love this place and the people I met on this forum have helped me grow both professionally and personally.

I made some lifelong friends here and will not let any snarky remarks change that.

There are different elements that intermix here, as I see it:

Some of the people who come asking for the magic pill are actually in a mindset that makes it impossible to help them, without shaking some of the structures out. Some of those people are almost there from the mindset standpoint and a lil shake makes the trick. Some are way out. But in any case, to self appoint to do the tearing down is a bit off.

Second scenario: pushing buttons.

It is part of our nature to search for and find patterns, also to extract conclusions. It is efficient. But it is also risky as we tend to try to put everything that comes our way in the lil boxes we built. I had an interesting encounter with Kay regarding this. Looks like I said a couple of things that put me in certain box for her, and boy... it was hard to get out of there, IF I did.

When you push someone´s button he or she will react to the whole package he or she built around the concept no matter if you are that package or not.

Third scenario: ego fight

People put themselves in huge ridicule trying to push down others when their pride is hurt. It is kind of funny, if it were not so sad. I see this here a lot as many are trying to build authority as a business strategy.

And finally you have psy vamps in disguise.

People who actually use the messing and stirring to suck energy from people in distress. But this gets us to wohooland, so I will not give details.

About the misunderstandings, the verb "to be" has a lot to say...

Because it means position and labeling. So when someone might be using it to establish a momentary state in other, the recipient takes it as a long lasting label. And here things get really complicated.

I´m the last one to give advice about the use of the English language, but there are easy ways out of some of the the situations. Example:

"you are a troll" is labeling and will not solve a problem, will bring more as once someone IS something, there is not way out

"from my point of view, you are being a troll" gives the chance to think and maybe change, and also puts the one who talks as someone giving an opinion instead of the God position that talks about facts

Sandra

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lotsofsnow

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Honestly, some of the people here act like 3rd graders and that's actually
an insult to 3rd graders because some of them have more manners.

Nice way to express it.

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

It's one of the reasons why I don't hang around here and post as much as I
used to.

Just post more often and the bad "kids" might learn good manners from seeing good examples.

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Having said all that, when I do come here I try to block out all the nonsense
and focus on just helping those who need it.

At the end of the day, and when all is said and done, the other stuff
just isn't important and those people will probably end up being the
losers that they're destined to be.

What goes around comes around.

That is the right attitude!

One of the reasons why some think they should tear others apart is because they think they can't help. Just continue to help others. It makes the helped ones happy and it makes you happy. If I really help somebody and see them winning I am as happy as can be.

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CDarklock 14 years ago

Originally Posted by linkbeasts

This is a business forum. It is not a " business " to walk around collecting 5 cent bottles to return for a deposit.

Why not?

You have a thing that you do and it makes you money.

Seems an awful lot like a business to me. And when something is like a business, I believe the word for that is "businesslike."

The rest of your little hissy fit can be productively ignored.
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George Wright

14 years ago

Originally Posted by linkbeasts

On a side note I have seen some very un-business like answers to questions posed on this forum of late, such as someone telling someone to " collect bottles " to turn in for a refund. There is nothing business like about walking the streets like a hobo collecting bottles. ( No offense to those unfortunate enough to be doing so ).

Careful there. You are going to get this thread booted to the Offline Forum.

George Wright

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Mike McAleer

14 years ago

Originally Posted by linkbeasts

On a side note I have seen some very un-business like answers to questions posed on this forum of late, such as someone telling someone to " collect bottles " to turn in for a refund. There is nothing business like about walking the streets like a hobo collecting bottles. ( No offense to those unfortunate enough to be doing so ).

On the topic of business like as well I am finding spammy links in threads to questionable websites, usually from warriors who have not been on the forum long and who's posts counts are abysmal.

I have seen this as well but thank god we have amazing mods that will get rid of that junk.

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scrofford

14 years ago

Originally Posted by linkbeasts

On a side note I have seen some very un-business like answers to questions posed on this forum of late, such as someone telling someone to " collect bottles " to turn in for a refund. There is nothing business like about walking the streets like a hobo collecting bottles. ( No offense to those unfortunate enough to be doing so ).

One thing to keep in mind about what you are saying, if someone needs money immediately, sometimes collecting bottles or aluminum cans can bring in money quite quickly. You can also do the fivver thing and of course that is making money on the internet.

I have known people to collect aluminum who just want the extra money and want to get some extra exercise also. I see nothing wrong with doing those things.

You can't necessarily make money overnight online if you are just starting out...or even if you've been doing this for a while. True enough it's not the funnest thing to do but it can help make a difference if someone needs to buy a domain name or pay a bill. You have to get creative sometimes and also be willing to do whatever it takes - legally of course

. So I don't think that advice like that is all that bad if someone is in a desperate situation and needs to keep their hosting going or whatever. Just food for thought.

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linkbeasts

14 years ago

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Frank Murphy 14 years ago

Sometimes, it is just much easier to sit behind a computer and pass these crude remarks rather than saying it to the face, personally..
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PatriciaJ

14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Taylor

I'm not sure what's going on around here lately,
maybe it's just me.

I seem to be seeing a complete lack of respect
and empathy for other Warrior members.

I've seen people as perfectly reasonable questions
only to get snarky "that's dumb" type replies.

It might be "dumb" to you. BUT... we all have to
learn. There's usually a reason for people to ask
questions...

They need helpful and constructive answers!

Last time I looked this was a business forum. Not
a school playground.

In my experience it's always good to help people
who are curious and keen to learn... they are the
people who usually make it to the top. You never
know, at some point in the future you may need
their help. ;-)

John

I totally agree with this,

Originally Posted by linkbeasts

Right but my OP was in reply to a post where a newb asked " how can i best spend my 50 bucks to get started in IM "

The replies this fellow got were just sad. Telling him to risk catching hep C and give up cause 50 bucks isn't a lot of money wasn't helpful.

I saw that and had the same thoughts as you. In that thread as in a lot of others it looked like it was just people jumping aboard to get their post counts up rather than any true advice.

Now I'm going out for a few hours so the narkies can take it out on me if they like

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Martin Avis 14 years ago

As you go through life you always come up against people who are proud of their rudeness.

"I'm a straight talker"

"I don't mean to be funny/rude but..."

"I speak my mind"

What they really mean is that their ego is so much bigger that yours that they don't care a jot about anything you think or feel. Most of them are probably borderline sociopaths.

When they are unable to discuss in an adult fashion, due to their own intellectual limitations, they attack. And resort to personal, rather than objective argument.

Such people are, sadly, far more prevalent on the WF than they used to be - or at least that is my perception. (Paul Myers would probably see things differently because he has been dealing with idiots online for longer than most). And it is the reason I spend way less time here than I used to. Life is just too short - and there are more productive things to do.

Martin

As to helping others, why bother when you can take their question and turn your insight into a WSO?
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CDarklock

14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Taylor

In my experience it's always good to help people

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter.

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Istvan Horvath

14 years ago

And that somebody did not say to himself "I simply refuse to make products for people to piss on."

I literally had a big loud laugh reading this

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robs132

14 years ago

Careful there. You are going to get this thread booted to the Offline Forum.

haha! love it.

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John Taylor

14 years ago

I often wonder just how snarky people would
be if they were sitting in the same room as
everyone else in the thread.

It's easy to sit at a desk and make disparaging
remarks when the consequences are virtually
non-existent.

John

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CDarklock 14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Taylor

I often wonder just how snarky people would be if they were sitting in the same room as everyone else in the thread.

Well, John, come to Atlanta in June. You'll find out that

is more than just a cute image I keep on my server.

Not that it really SHOULD be, in all probability, but... yeah, I say that.

A lot.
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"The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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petevamp

14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Taylor

I often wonder just how snarky people would
be if they were sitting in the same room as
everyone else in the thread.

It's easy to sit at a desk and make disparaging
remarks when the consequences are virtually
non-existent.

John

No thats not entirely true though there are consequences still. For instance the next time you see that persons name on a product are you going to be willing to buy from them. I know I wouldn't but that may just be me.

But I do agree with you 100% many will simply keep there mouths shut at the table face to face with the person but with the internet their true colors come out and they simply say what ever it is they want with out worry about what it might do for them or their business.

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JasonParker

14 years ago

I hear ya John.

I HONESTLY don't know if it's just me or if the forum has gotten more and more cranky.

It seemed like when I started on here in 2007 Warriors were coming out of the woodworks to help.

Sometimes I wish someone would make me a mod so I can go around booting everyone who's not constructive to this community haha... then again, I'd probably boot way too many people off the forum, so that's not exactly a great idea.

I like to keep things in the spirit of helping others around here. People who don't want to do that should go start a internet marketing whiners forum... or go start a reality show on E!.

...Because we're here to help each other KICK BUTT online.

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Ron Douglas

14 years ago

Originally Posted by JasonParker

I HONESTLY don't know if it's just me or if the forum has gotten more and more cranky.

They're cranky because they're broke.

Misery loves company.

All the successful people I know who have steady money coming in are usually in a good mood. They don't focus on such negativity. They don't have to argue and debate on forums to make themselves seem smart or successful.

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Joe Motion

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron Douglas

They're cranky because they're broke.

Misery loves company.

All the successful people I know who have steady money coming in are usually in a good mood. They don't focus on such negativity. They don't have to argue and debate on forums to make themselves seem smart or successful.

Damn Ron, I think you got it spot on.

It's Friday night as well!

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Joanne D

14 years ago

I totally agree that the tone is generally not as "nice" as it could be (with exception). Another thing I've noticed is that very few people want to help other unless there is something in it for them.

What happened to generosity and kindness?

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Matt Bard

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Joanne D

What happened to generosity and kindness?

As a long time member (one of the first 1000), I think that I am just as kind as I always have been. That will never change because it is and has been my nature online and off.

But my generosity, which is also a very strong part of my nature, has had to change here on the forum.

For many years, I have been quick to help and answer any questions that I could as a way of giving back and thanking Allen and this forum.

Unfortunately, I have seen the rise of my "help" turning into instant WSOs thereby causing me to feel like I have been manipulated and my generosity taken advantage of.

I'm not talking about the public forum where all of the information is up for grabs. Even though, the rise in instant products from there has caused me to hold back more than before.

There have been pm exchanges I have had with several "newbies", or so I thought, that have been turned into WSO products almost as fast as my last message was sent to them with me asking "was that helpful".

I no longer feel as eager to rush to "help" someone without first stopping and thinking about it much more now. Come to think of it, I think I have deleted more posts in the past few months than I have left.

That cautiousness might be the perceived "what's in it for me" attitude by many veterans that were more generous in the past but now seem distant.

Given the feelings that I just mentioned, when you add the "snarky" factor, I spend a lot less time here, let alone wanting to rush to help.

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt Maiden

-snip-
Given the feelings that I just mentioned, when you add the "snarky" factor, I spend a lot less time here, let alone wanting to rush to help.

Makes me wonder what this place would be like if all the "veterans" just quit coming here for a month. I can imagine several scenarios, but most of them aren't good.

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Matt Bard

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

Makes me wonder what this place would be like if all the "veterans" just quit coming here for a month. I can imagine several scenarios, but most of them aren't good.

Dennis, I also failed to mention that I know myself well enough to know that my current feelings will give in to my old ways.

I usually don't go very long at letting a few bad apples spoil the barrel.

Another aspect of my nature is to give people the benefit of the doubt and always try to think the best of folks.

I go through waves here, as you can see my total post count. I can go for months and then something breaks the camel's back and makes me feel like leaving for good.

Then I realize that it is always just a handful that try to ruin it for the rest and remember all of the people that are appreciative and grateful that we are here trying to help them out.

Someone getting that light bulb moment from something we have explained to them, makes it all worth it.

I can never forget the kindness and generosity that I have received and continue to receive from this place.

While there are a few "snarky" and downright scoundrels that pass through here, I must remember all of the fine and decent people I have met here.

I've met a lot of good people like you Dennis.

But you need to do something about that goat

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Dennis Gaskill 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Matt Maiden

But you need to do something about that goat

Do you mean sawing off the horns didn't fool you into thinking the goat was a dog?

...back go the drawing board.
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trytolearnmore

14 years ago

You can't always be polite. People learn through pain and some form of humiliation (like making stupid mistakes and then paying the consequences).

If your are feelings are hurt and you quit because of a simple "that's a dumb question" statement, then it's your fault.

Encouraging is OK, being nice is fine, but sometimes you need to be a do*che.

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John Taylor

14 years ago

Originally Posted by trytolearnmore

You can't always be polite.

Yes, you can.

There is absolutely no need to be rude, condescending
or insulting in any way.

Giving people help, advice and constructive feedback
should be done in a polite and businesslike way. There
is huge difference between giving tough love and being
a bully or a smartass.

John

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trytolearnmore

14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Taylor

Yes, you can.

There is absolutely no need to be rude, condescending
or insulting in any way.

Giving people help, advice and constructive feedback
should be done in a polite and businesslike way. There
is huge difference between giving tough love and being
a bully or a smartass.

John

Hey John,

My point was, you don't have to insult a person, but at the same time you don't have to be nice all the time. In some cases a person needs to learn the hard truth. It may be cruel, but it's effective.

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John Taylor

14 years ago

Originally Posted by trytolearnmore

My point was, you don't have to insult a person, but at the same time you don't have to be nice all the time. In some cases a person needs to learn the hard truth. It may be cruel, but it's effective.

Read your post again... where does "humiliation"
and "being a do*che" fit into not being insulting?

John

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trytolearnmore

14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Taylor

Read your post again... where does "humiliation"
and "being a do*che" fit into not being insulting?

John

John, sadly you mix up insults and tough love. Being a do*che does not imply that you should insult a person, but tell him that his idea is awful and he should rethink his strategy.

You want everything to be professional like, where everyone is polite. Sure, that is one way of approaching things.

The second one is being honest. People are so afraid of telling the blatant truth, because they are afraid they might hurt someone else's feelings. So what?

Sometimes you need to get hurt to get something done; sometimes you need an old fashioned kick in the behind to get motivated.

Although, you must know when to be polite and when not. Sometimes being a bit rude could be inappropriate.

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John Taylor

14 years ago

Originally Posted by trytolearnmore

John, sadly you mix up insults and tough love.

I din't think I've mixed up anything. And, I
note with interest, you've failed to address
your use of the word "humiliation". How does
humiliating someone help them to learn and
grow?

John

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Mrmuscle90 14 years ago

Great Thread! Now come on everyone, group hug
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trytolearnmore

14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Taylor

I din't think I've mixed up anything. And, I
note with interest, you've failed to address
your use of the word "humiliation". How does
humiliating someone help them to learn and
grow?

John

When a person hears that his strategy is awful, then he feels a bit humiliated. It's natural.

It's like doing math. One moment you think that you did the exercise correctly, and then someone tells you that this solution is absurd and that you should read the basics again. You will feel a sense of disappointment, frustration and a small dose of humiliation.

Of course, you can start crying and call this person a do*che and then quit. But if you are not a quitter you will get up, get your **** together and solve this exercise.

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Hesaidblissfully

14 years ago

Originally Posted by trytolearnmore

You want everything to be professional like, where everyone is polite. Sure, that is one way of approaching things.

The second one is being honest. People are so afraid of telling the blatant truth, because they are afraid they might hurt someone else's feelings. So what?

I disagree. You can be honest with people without being a douche.

Example: Newbie comes on and posts a ridiculously flawed business plan and asks for feedback.

Reply 1: "That's a ridiculous idea. There's no way in hell that could ever work, and if you're that naive, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you."

Reply 2: "Well, it's good that you're making an effort, but that idea's not going to work, and here's why..." and then you give a list of reasons why the idea won't work and suggest a set of alternatives they can pursue instead.

Both replies are honest in that they let the poster know that their idea won't work, but the latter does it in a way that's CLASSY and respectful, while the former doesn't.

You can "keep it real" and "tell it like it is" without being a jerk. Likewise, you can be polite and show respect towards people without being an overly politically correct sell-out. It comes down to the level of class and tact that you use in your communications.

Unless you're somebody like Howard Stern and you're building a brand around having this sort of edgy, abrasive persona, I think most people, especially in business and when their communication is being seen by potential customers/partners, etc., are better served staying on the classy/tactful side.

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lotsofsnow

14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Taylor

Yes, you can.

There is absolutely no need to be rude, condescending
or insulting in any way.

Giving people help, advice and constructive feedback
should be done in a polite and businesslike way. There
is huge difference between giving tough love and being
a bully or a smartass.

John

100% percent correct, John.

This forum is like real life:
The small dogs often bark the loudest, at least they try.

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Dennis Gaskill

14 years ago

No John, it's not just you. I've noticed that, and more. It's one of the reasons I've been spending less time here lately.

The "more" I referred to is that some people don't seem to want to be helped. They ask questions but pay no attention to the answers; or worse, they argue about the answers or insult those trying to help them.

If everyone were like the snarks, this forum would quickly turn into the kind of place even the snarks wouldn't want to visit.

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Istvan Horvath

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill

The "more" I referred to is that some people don't seem to want to be helped. They ask questions but pay no attention to the answers; or worse, they argue about the answers or insult those trying to help them.

^^ this... The "snarky" answers are just reactions to this.

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Orator

14 years ago

I can be see both sides of this argument, but for me it just usually boils down to a fundamental issue.

Do I believe the answer I'm going to give will be helpful?

Sometimes people need a slap in the face, and sometimes they need just a little reassuring. There are plenty of tools that can be used to help motivate a person, and for some a good healthy dose of anger is just what the doctored ordered.

Your not helping a person all the time if your just patting their head, and treating them with kid gloves.

Then again being snarky without actually offering useful advice is plain douchebaggery.

You can also just say nothing at all.

Different tools for different people.

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Ray Erdmann

14 years ago

I agree w/John on this one!

If you're going to give advice, then do so but w/hold the smart-ass comments!

As for the comments made by "trytolearn", which were:

1.

"...You can't always be polite...

and

2.

"...Encouraging is OK, being nice is fine, but sometimes you need to be a do*che...

All I have to say is:

Ever hear the old saying 'treat others the same way you want to be treated?'

If not, then know this...these types of comments go a long way in establishing your 'character' here on the Warrior Forum and "could" go a long way in people's minds in NOT wanting to do business with you...as well as providing the unwanted negative publicity they'll more then likely cause by word-of-mouth.

Again, the old saying goes..

Give someone GREAT SERVICE/ADVICE/ETC, and they'll eventually tell a few of their friends...Give someone BAD SERVICE/ADVICE/ETC, and they'll go out of their way to tell everyone who will listen.

As for your following comment:

"...It's like doing math. One moment you think that you did the exercise correctly, and then someone tells you that this solution is absurd and that you should read the basics again. You will feel a sense of disappointment, frustration and a small dose of humiliation...

That point of view is entirely based on how the proper solution is conveyed to the end-user. Take a more 'business like' approach to correcting someone's work or strategy and I highly doubt the person on the receiving end is going to walk away feeling any humiliation.

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Sandra Martinez 14 years ago

In Spanish we have a saying, a free translation would be:

Violence is the last resource of the incompetent.

To act in a violent way does not talk about the other person, but of our inability to resolve in a different way.

And I´m not saying this from over the horse... I lose my patience from time to time, and when that happens... people run and hide

Sandra
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christopher jon

14 years ago

It might be "dumb" to you. BUT... we all have to
learn. There's usually a reason for people to ask
questions...

But wouldn't you agree that there is a line between those who are in need of help and information and those who are unwilling to search for information readily available on their own.

Search is a powerful feature. Either this forum or google, the answers are usually out there.

On the topic of business like as well I am finding spammy links in threads to questionable websites, usually from warriors who have not been on the forum long and who's posts counts are abysmal.

The programming and web design forums have been overrun with that junk. I can understand why people ask wordpress related questions in the main forum. You're more likely to get a competent reply and not a generic reply from a forum link spammer.

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Mark Alexander

14 years ago

I agree...most of the web these days has become very dog eat dog....I haven't posted much here over the last year or so...

It is good to come back and see that the mods have done a great job in keeping many of the spammers away......

With all the turmoil going on in the world today....people seem to be losing respect for each other....remember we all had to start somewhere...

There has been some awful earthquakes around the world in the last couple of weeks...my condolances to any body that has lost loved ones....I thought the one in my home country of New Zealand was particually bad until I saw coverage of Japan last night..

Keep up the good work everybody...

Mark

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Rhiannon Beckham

14 years ago

This Bottle got the lead of the show tonight!

I too, have been personally on the receiving end of some pretty snarky extremely unnecessary remarks, actually just yesterday, and it was a member that had thousands of posts.. Now this might be a fault of mine for assuming that they are mature, established and supportive of colleagues. Sure, there are some pretty simple questions sometimes, but why are the as*holes thinking they are better than the newbies!?

They are simply at different stages of their lives, just as they were when they started, asking someone else that exact same question. It wasn't stupid then, and it isn't stupid now. It's all relative and we need to remember that.

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**I don't always make it back to check on threads, so if you'd like me to elaborate feel free to PM me, I try to make sure to check my inbox regularly and am happy to help..

I wouldn't have pulled a $9k week w/Teespring etc without the help of others, so it's time to pay it forward.
I can make a little room in my life for that. ;)

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Rhiannon Beckham

14 years ago

Was the first post not to band us together and try to welcome newbies, now tit for tat is all I see..
Same Sh*t, different approach..

Way to kill the love..

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**I don't always make it back to check on threads, so if you'd like me to elaborate feel free to PM me, I try to make sure to check my inbox regularly and am happy to help..

I wouldn't have pulled a $9k week w/Teespring etc without the help of others, so it's time to pay it forward.
I can make a little room in my life for that. ;)

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profitsforall

14 years ago

Anyway - getting back to John Taylors original post.

No John It's not just you. I find it ironic that the very thread calling out such disrespectful behaviour has such perfect examples within it.

You never have to be rude to get your point across. You can tell someone that you think their idea won't work without resorting to name calling. How people choose to react to that is up to them - but I don't need to descend to their level in response.

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Dean Jackson

14 years ago

I may be guilty of snarky remarks myself. Thanks for bringing this up John as I might not have realized it if you didn't.

They weren't as bad as some but I feel like I could have helped much better.

To the poster above, I replied to one of those too and told the poster to "get real".

...don't know what it is - I just think that sometimes this is more like baby sitting rather than a meeting place for serious marketers.

People should be responsible for their due diligence. Money doesn't come tumbling down into your PayPal account after using "secret guru software" or any other of that nonsense. I've seen people whine, bitch and cry that they blew up to $47 on this type of junk and it was huge investment for them (like part of their rent or necessary living cost).

"Common sense is not all that common" is something I'm starting to see the truth in.

Take the time to learn the skills necessary and use up the valuable free information already here... which is MORE than enough to get you started.

- Dean

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tryinhere

14 years ago

Originally Posted by John Taylor

I've seen people as perfectly reasonable questions only to get snarky "that's dumb" type replies.

It might be "dumb" to you. BUT... we all have to learn. There's usually a reason for people to ask questions... They need helpful and constructive answers!

Why do I have the feeling those that need to understand this post will just dismiss it as another dumb post, and for those who do understand also realise that in that, nothing changes other the the sun coming up for a new day and it's more of the same.

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SteveJohnson

14 years ago

In another lifetime, collecting cans and bottles for the deposit money kept me in gasoline and cigarettes for an entire enlightened summer of my youth...so it's not a completely ignorant or disrespectful suggestion. It can be good for some quick cash, if you need it badly and have no other direction to turn. As far as I can tell, I didn't catch any diseases from collecting them, either.

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Istvan Horvath

14 years ago

The bottle example was very properly used in a thread where the OP asked an unrealistic question:
investing $20 to make $50 overnight... <-- notice, it is "investing" to make a return of 150% in less than a day! - Well, if that question is a valid, business-like question in a marketing forum... then this reply is also "kewl"

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post3509973

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Sandra Martinez

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Istvan Horvath

The bottle example was very properly used in a thread where the OP asked an unrealistic question:
investing $20 to make $50 overnight... <-- notice, it is "investing" to make a return of 150% in less than a day! - Well, if that question is a valid, business-like question in a marketing forum... then this reply is also "kewl"

http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ml#post3509973

Ah.. ok, now I see it. The OP seemed to be mocking a lil bit. It was asking for the slap.

The answers were ok nonetheless.

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linkbeasts 14 years ago

[DELETED]

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- WD Mino 14 years ago
  
  So let me get this straight,
  John posts a thread on courtesy being helpful and not being a dork in your posts. Only to have the thread receive the very posts he is saying need to stop? I am sorry but that is rather ironic. especially when what John says is completely true.This thread is serving as proof of exactly what he is talking about.
  
  You know people need help. that is the reality. people who make money usually are very willing to help. Not to do it for them but to help them get the base they need to operate from. If ya can't speak anything helpful keep quiet
  -Will
  
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  "As a man thinks in his heart so is he-Proverbs 23:7"
  
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- CDarklock 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by linkbeasts
  
  My stance is collecting trash by hand for a 5 cent redemption is not a business, nor is it advice that should appear here.
  
  And my stance is that your stance is unbusinesslike and does not represent a position of mutual respect for other business owners.
  
  Which is more or less what the OP was complaining about.
  
  Thanks
  
  Signature
  
  "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
  
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mike gregory

14 years ago

About time this was bought up it was only the other day i was chatting to a newbie from my list who had some very simple questions he was in need of answers to.

After chatting for a good half hour i had sorted him out and cleared up what was troubling him, i then mentioned to him that he can use the forum to get more targeted questions answered from fellow warrior experts.

His answer was he did not want too be made to look stupid!!! I was shocked at that response i really was, he then explained he had seen other comments to threads that made him feel uncomfortable in asking questions!!

I love this forum it is no doubt the best place for those looking at making money online can hang out it has everything you would want at your fingertips, but please if anyone has any questions or is in need of any advice at all DO NOT feel you can't ask because you can and you will get help and feedback you need.

Thanks

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AnnaHamer

14 years ago

I have seen people on this site giving very poor advice but in a business like manner. And some people giving great advice in a condescending manner.

I always learned better from the mean teachers for some reason. At the time I wondered why they were so harsh on me, but now I look back I realized they were being cruel to be kind.

I have certain marketers on here I really respect, and I would listen to what they told me no matter what tone they took with me. However if I get any negativity from people I don't respect I don't even respond. Time=money and I'm not going to waste my valuable time arguing with someone on a forum.

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DaleM

14 years ago

Rudeness seems to be a way of life in this day and age. Just look around you, you see it everywhere. In the parking lot, on the highway, in the stores, in the schools, in the home, at the shopping mall. It is everywhere! Therefore it is no surprise that it appears in the Warrior Forum

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