When it comes to List Building are these #s accurate?

by Rashell 15 replies
I have to admit I'm one of those people who never really bothered to build a list. Now I'd really like to comprehend how it works beyond sign ups.

Was reading this Article --> Average open, click-through, and bounce rates of Constant Contact customers - Constant Contact FAQs

The article gives percentages based on all the eMails in certain industries, sent by both novices & professional eMail marketers. But I'm wondering...

Do you all, as skillful & creative internet marketers, consider these #s typical for you & your peers?


Bounce Rates 5-7%
Open Rates on average 20% or so of received eMails
Click Through Rates 15% of Opens

If so, with these rates a 5000 subscriber list with 5% buy response (I got that rate from an affiliate sales page so I'm not really sure if that's typical) would bring in less than 10 sales per eMail sent. Am I missing any key factors?

Not that these percentages will dissuade me from building a list. Would rather not build all "hyped up" blind, which can often happen after getting a WSO or webinar with all the glitz and glitter of glamorized facts (with missing figures).

If confirmed reality will help me prepare for the work that should be involved and could be involved in improving those averages. Which leads me to my next question.


Do you know of any good eMail Marketing courses...


which cover list building AND effective ways to increase open rates, click through, etc. without all the how to set up an aWeber (et al) account nonsense?

Your help is immensely appreciated,

Rashell
#main internet marketing discussion forum #building #click through #email #email marketing #list #list building #marketing #open rates
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  • Profile picture of the author Aimee Vo
    Hey Rashal, there are so many courses out there but the key really in making money with list building is to build a relationship with the list.
    You will probably end up having two types of lists.
    1. prospect list
    2. customer list

    Prospects lists are from your freebie giveaway that gets onto your newsletter which you try to convert to get them onto your customer list.
    Customer lists... aka those that buy from you and move from your prospect to your customer list.

    The key: build a relationship in your autoresponder. Expect to give them tremendous value, give them the things that they would normally pay for and start developing an email sequence.

    message 1: hey thanks for subscribing
    message 2: 3 days from the last email - give them some great free content
    message 3: 4 days from last email - reminder of last content and just saying you're there.
    message 4: 4 days from last email - hey "name", I've got a special discount offer and make sure it is a discount offer, something that you negotiated and that people on your list is getting a better price than the discount.

    Hope it helps..
    Aimee
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    • Profile picture of the author Rashell
      Hi Aimee,

      Thanks so much for your response!

      Would you say using that approach has helped improve your #s above the ones listed by Constant Contact?

      I'm wondering if the way Warriors treat eMail Marketing gets better results than say a mom-n-pop shop, which sends out occasional newsletters but not regular autoresponse messages, etc.

      In essence, I'm trying to figure out if the #s listed by Constant Contact are typical of the #s Warrior eMailers get.

      Tried to check the statistics over at aWeber but couldn't find any.

      Rashell
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  • Profile picture of the author petelta
    Those are typical numbers for an average email marketer. Be different than your competition and deliver high quality content that is directly related to the products you sell. You will still see around a 30% email open rate, but the click thru rate will be much higher and so will the sales page conversions.

    You can create 5 figure days from less than 1,000 people on a list.
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  • Profile picture of the author CraigRC
    As Aimee said very well, you can't use anyone else's numbers to estimate your own when it comes to this because of so many moving parts and variables.

    Everything from the niche itself, to the followup frequency, to the tone of those followups, to the effectiveness of the CTAs and flow within the individual emails, can produce startling differences in every number mentioned.

    Plus it all goes out the window on Buyer lists where it's not uncommon to build lists that have 50-60% open rates, and 50-60% CTR. My prospect lists on the other hand are nowhere CLOSE to those figures as is expected, since they are of course "prospects"...

    Eventually listbuilding is like anything else in IM: You have to do it yourself, monitor the results, evaluate the data, and adjust things towards your favorable metrics.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Rashell View Post

    Do you all, as skillful & creative internet marketers, consider these #s typical for you & your peers?

    Bounce Rates 5-7%
    Open Rates on average 20% or so of received eMails
    Click Through Rates 15% of Opens

    My personal stats are very different...

    Bounce rate: < 1%
    Open rate: 40% give or take
    Click rate: about 12% (30% of opens)

    This varies depending on what I send, but they hover right around these ranges.

    But I don't think I'm doing a particularly good job of building my list, so much as the average IMer is doing a really bad job.

    It's not really the size of your list that matters. It's how many sales you can expect when you send to your list. I can usually expect about 40 from a single promo mailing - which means I'm converting a little over 5% of my entire list, about 12% of my opens, and just under half of my click-through.

    That's pretty good, but that's also just for promos of my own stuff... promos for other people convert at between 12% and 25% of that, for about five to ten sales. I don't really do the affiliate thing very well.
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  • Profile picture of the author drmani
    Originally Posted by Rashell View Post

    But I'm wondering...

    Do you all, as skillful & creative internet marketers, consider these #s typical for you & your peers?


    Bounce Rates 5-7%
    Open Rates on average 20% or so of received eMails
    Click Through Rates 15% of Opens

    Rashell
    Numbers are all over the place. You'll have to test it with YOUR
    list, as no one else's can be extrapolated to your email marketing.

    But since you asked for a general guideline, rather than "what will
    I get", I'll share some experience (I've been marketing with email
    since around 1996, btw)

    Bounce rates - with a good email delivery service and a list built
    on best practices (I mean NOT importing harvested emails etc.), you
    can expect a bounce rate far lower than 5-7%. Mine average less
    than 1%

    Open rates - they will always vary as there are too many factors
    impacting it. And while a certain style of list marketing relies
    on this metric, for my double-optin ezine publishing model of email
    marketing I believe the RESPONSE rate matters more

    Clickthrough rates - 15% of opens is a fair estimate for a good
    email marketer writing to a targeted and interested list. The range
    will vary. With some promotions, you'll get 70%+ CTR, with others
    you'll get 5% or rarely less

    5% buy response for a list is a wild guesstimate, as "buy response"
    is a lot more complex than other things, with many more variables
    involved.

    If you're selling your own product or service to a house list, it's
    an under-estimate. For affiliate promotions, it could be a gross
    over-estimate, or a serious under-estimate, depending on how well
    the vendor sells.

    The single factor you're "missing" - which is pointed out by Aimee -
    is the RELATIONSHIP you build with your list.

    That's the MOST important - and can blow all other metrics up by
    a factor of 2x to 10x, if you do it well.

    My 2 cents.

    Hope this helps

    All success
    Dr.Mani
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  • Profile picture of the author Mindz
    I have a list of about five hundred . I never get more than an hundred to open up for some reason . I guess im not providing enough value . which im learning . But everytime i send them out i get 10% to 18% Clicks from whatever im sending . Its just getting them to buy . I guess ihavent reach that stage yet .
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  • Profile picture of the author gjohansson1
    This whole list building thing got me a bit disappointed, because I wasn't getting anywhere near those rates, but they also are likely basing those stats on double optin.

    I recently read a blog post of one guy in the Internet network marketing niche that had a list of nearly 200,000 subscribers and would range between 9-20 thousand clicks per mailing. I don't know about you, but those numbers seem a tad low to me, although that many clicks would probably create some kind of income..

    I would actually really like a course for list building and increasing open and click rates as well, as I am only getting about 10 percent opens and 8 percent total clicks, but I am using single optin.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rashell
      ~~~~~ Travis ~~~~~


      Originally Posted by petelta View Post

      Those are typical numbers for an average email marketer. Be different than your competition and deliver high quality content that is directly related to the products you sell. You will still see around a 30% email open rate, but the click thru rate will be much higher and so will the sales page conversions.

      You can create 5 figure days from less than 1,000 people on a list.
      Hey Travis,

      Thank you!

      It’s good to know while the #s are typical I’m in the company of people who have gotten better results. I’ve noticed depending on the type of list subscribers are treated very differently.

      For the most part if subscribed from a Giveaway Event you’ll be bombarded with an insane amount of offers on a daily basis. The emails rarely have any substance as it’s a massive pitch-fest, Which is fine if it makes the list owner money but annoying if you’re a subscriber trying to learn IM. I steer clear of them now.

      If you’re on a buyers list you get less frequent & more insightful offers with actual quality reviews of items.

      Whenever I’ve gotten on a skilled and experienced marketers prospect list I’m treated the same as some buyers lists. Less frequent offers, insightful reviews, relative content, etc. (by the way I’m on one of your lists. I put you in this category. Thanks for not pitching me lame emails everyday)

      With the mom-n-pop non-Warriors in my niche... those are mostly eMail Newsletters with pretty pictures & blog posts via email.

      So I’m seeing so many different ways of “treating” a list and really wanted to get a better understanding of the most beneficial win-win approach for both list owner and subscriber.

      ~~~~~ CraigRC ~~~~~


      Originally Posted by CraigRC View Post

      As Aimee said very well, you can't use anyone else's numbers to estimate your own when it comes to this because of so many moving parts and variables.

      Everything from the niche itself, to the followup frequency, to the tone of those followups, to the effectiveness of the CTAs and flow within the individual emails, can produce startling differences in every number mentioned.
      CraigRC,

      OK. I understand that much better now. Thank you both.

      Also thanks so much for sharing your insight into some of the variables to track. This is a huge help.

      Originally Posted by CraigRC View Post

      Plus it all goes out the window on Buyer lists where it's not uncommon to build lists that have 50-60% open rates, and 50-60% CTR. My prospect lists on the other hand are nowhere CLOSE to those figures as is expected, since they are of course "prospects"...
      You and Aimee raised an excellent point about the customer/buyer’s list. Thank you for reiterating it!

      RE: list building and segmenting. From what I understand, while you could separate the buyers list #s from the prospects to understand the “health” of each segment, to get the overall health of entire list (similar to what Constant Contact did) you’d keep them combined?

      But by segmenting you can gain better “control” over end results?

      Since Constant Contact did an overview of the total emails sent by their service not differentiating between the type of list (ie. buyers vs prospect) I guess their #s wouldn’t mean much to “Warrior style” eMail Marketing.

      ~~~~~ Caliban ~~~~~


      Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post


      But I don't think I'm doing a particularly good job of building my list, so much as the average IMer is doing a really bad job.
      Caliban,

      First-- Thank you for sharing your #s. It’s good to know I can get entirely different #s from what was listed in that article.

      When I 1st saw these #s from Constant Contact I was thinking “dang those #s suck. You’d either need a huge list, high price products or some miracle secret sauce formula for making your list ultra highly responsive”.

      And from what I’m reading the Warrior secret sauce is respect for your subscribers, quality content, testing the variables for relevance to your subscribers, etc.

      ~~~~~ Dr. Mani ~~~~~


      Originally Posted by drmani View Post

      Open rates - they will always vary as there are too many factors impacting it. And while a certain style of list marketing relies on this metric, for my double-optin ezine publishing model of email marketing I believe the RESPONSE rate matters more
      Dr. Mani,

      Thanks so much for your response! I actually found an article you wrote on list building and it really piqued my interest in the business model.

      And with this comment you've done it again.

      First, what are the “many factors” which affect open rates? I just thought it depended on if your headline/email subject line was any good.

      Second, I noticed list owners treat their lists differently but are you saying somewhere someone has categorized and calculated the styles of lists and how best to approach them? Oh where to find such wonderful information...

      Originally Posted by drmani View Post

      5% buy response for a list is a wild guesstimate, as "buy response" is a lot more complex than other things, with many more variables involved.

      If you're selling your own product or service to a house list, it's an under-estimate. For affiliate promotions, it could be a gross over-estimate, or a serious under-estimate, depending on how well the vendor sells.
      This is good to know and reiterates something Caliban mentioned earlier!

      I'd planned to promo my own stuff as I'd found it difficult to find any aff products in my niche. So even though it'll be more work at least I should look forward to better results in the long run?

      Originally Posted by drmani View Post

      The single factor you're "missing" - which is pointed out by Aimee -is the RELATIONSHIP you build with your list.

      That's the MOST important - and can blow all other metrics up by a factor of 2x to 10x, if you do it well.
      RE: the Relationship Quotient: When I 1st saw those #s I was thinking “if you poured out your best and those Constant Contact results are the BEST numbers you can get there’s not as much money in the list as some would have you believe”.

      But as each of you have pointed out those #s are too general in scope for a correct assessment of the results one can get in eMail Marketing.

      So I’ve come away with much more confidence that my #s don’t need to be that bad. Thank you all so much for your help on that. You All Rock!!!

      I am truly thankful,

      Rashell
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      • Profile picture of the author petelta
        Originally Posted by Rashell View Post

        ~~~~~ Travis ~~~~

        Hey Travis,

        Thank you!

        It’s good to know while the #s are typical I’m in the company of people who have gotten better results. I’ve noticed depending on the type of list subscribers are treated very differently.

        For the most part if subscribed from a Giveaway Event you’ll be bombarded with an insane amount of offers on a daily basis. The emails rarely have any substance as it’s a massive pitch-fest, Which is fine if it makes the list owner money but annoying if you’re a subscriber trying to learn IM. I steer clear of them now.

        If you’re on a buyers list you get less frequent & more insightful offers with actual quality reviews of items.

        Whenever I’ve gotten on a skilled and experienced marketers prospect list I’m treated the same as some buyers lists. Less frequent offers, insightful reviews, relative content, etc. (by the way I’m on one of your lists. I put you in this category. Thanks for not pitching me lame emails everyday)

        With the mom-n-pop non-Warriors in my niche... those are mostly eMail Newsletters with pretty pictures & blog posts via email.

        So I’m seeing so many different ways of “treating” a list and really wanted to get a better understanding of the most beneficial win-win approach for both list owner and subscriber.
        Awesome! I'm glad you're learning about the importance of giving value. It's very powerful for email marketing. Marketing to the IM niche is definitely a little different than your Mom & Pops, but the same principles lie within.

        Like John Schwartz (Zeus66) mentioned to me in a conversation the other day, the Law of Reciprocity works and it works well.

        Travis

        P.S. Like you said, stay away from give away events if you want your conversion numbers to be good.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael D Forbes
        List responsiveness is huge and you have everything to do with it.

        I know a marketer with a list over 100,000 that got about 50 sales on a particular campaign. Another marketer with a list of around 5000 got over 400 sales, same product.

        If your list is targeted and you have a relationship with your list and don't just blast anything that comes along, your conversions can be much, much higher than "average".
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Sorrell
        There's a lot of variables in list building which is why it is never gonna be an exact science but you can certainly learn from what other high earning marketers are doing.

        For instance, one of the most profitable ways of selling to your list is through webinars. The conversion rates can be sky high if the product is well suited to your subscribers. So, going after the usual $37 clickbank hypey stuff isn't always the best way to go. Find interesting products that not everyone and their mother is gonna be promoting and then try and pitch it as a webinar with the product owner/creator.

        Also, try and sell some cheaper stuff like $7 products you've put together yourself or had done via an outsourcer.

        This is what James Jones does (micro niche finder creator) and I'm sure he does v well out of it. Every week he'll send out an email about an interesting product which fits his subscribers and offers it for $7. Then he'll do about 2 webinars a month which apparently convert like crazy. In short, his list are happy and so is he. All in all, these sorts of tactics will stand you in good stead for the long term.
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        • Profile picture of the author BenoitT
          I've made $291 with less than 10 subscribers. It's not the size that matter but how they are targetted and how you give them value. Help them as much as you can and they will love you
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  • Profile picture of the author MarketingPro11
    Hi Rashell,
    Actually money is not in the size of your list.Money is in the tagetedness of your list and your relationship with your list.

    The opening rates and clickthough rates will depend on the value you provide to your subscribers.

    By offering high quality content from the very beginning you build a strong bond with your list and then they are much more likely to open your message and follow your recommendations.

    See,with so much hyip in the IM world,the only way for typical users to seperate a marketer who is genuinly interested in their welfare from the one who is only after their money is by the quality of content they provide.

    I have always got opening rates of 40-60% and CTRs 50-70% of the opening rates and several times I have succeeded in making high four figures from a single promotion to one of my lists as little as 1700 strong.

    I make sure from the very beginning that my subscribers receive the highest quality content for free and I try to keep affiliate promotions to the minimum.

    One more thing I have noticed is that there is big difference in clickthrough rates when I promote my own products and when I send affiliate promotions.The clickthru rates for my own products are generally always two to three times higher than those for the affiliate recommendations.
    Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author danielsteven
    Hey Rashall,
    Everyones rates will be different...Your results will be much better if you go out of your way to build a relationship with that list.
    Take the time to engage your list with surveys, contests, etc....
    It wouldnt hurt to personally contact some and help them along the way.
    Just a thought!
    Daniel
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