BIG Mistake

12 years ago

I fully agree with you Mike. It's the wrong way to run your business. It's misleading and very irritating.

I myself have unsubscribed from two of these marketers lists today.

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howinfo 12 years ago

Any email whit the subject line you mentioned, I would be extremely cautious opening these. I usually get some emails that asks to update my bank details or something like that and I would put these to the same category. Definitely not good for marketing purposes.
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mukesh86

12 years ago

I am also getting email like this. But I do not open.

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Sheryl Polomka

12 years ago

I agree Mike - this type of subject line really annoys me and I don't even bother reading the email just out of principal.

Don't tell me I've got funds in my Paypal account unless you intend to put some in there

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Leanne King

12 years ago

Totally agree, the other one I'm seeing a lot of is "here is your membership details" wtf? They just get an unsub ...although I'm vague on occasions I think I'm awake enough to know what products I've bought and anything that has these subject lines gets a quick unsub from me.

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MarieDi

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

(...)

All that happens is the reader gets frustrated and feels mislead and lied to so they unsubscribe or at the very least never pay attention to your email again.

(..)

To the clients who have been taught to do this... take your money and run from this type of mentor and save yourself from ruining or discrediting your business.

I agree fully. That's what I do: I unsubscribe and don't come back. Why would I buy from someone who thinks they need to trick me to read them? If they trick me to only read them, what will they do to me for my money?????

Thanks for posting this. I agree 1000%

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Kay King 12 years ago

When you unsubscribe from spam - all you do is verify they have reached a live email address. I delete these unopened - I know what's in my paypal account and I don't need some spammer telling me what I'm doing.

These emails work because there are always people who will believe there's a problem with their money - or be excited about a possible sale - and they'll click without thinking twice.
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CliveG 12 years ago

Originally Posted by MarieDi

.... Why would I buy from someone who thinks they need to trick me ....

Quite. But more and more people seem to be trying this "technique". I'd like to think that it does not work, but ...

CliveG
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- cjreynolds 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CliveG
  
  Quite. But more and more people seem to be trying this "technique". I'd like to think that it does not work, but ...
  
  CliveG
  
  Unfortunately, yes. MANY people are gullible enough to tolerate such marketing, and even worse! That's why spam still works.
  
  If you feel you have to deceive me to get my attention, I have no desire to do business with you.
  
  joe
  
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  I just added this sig so I can refer to it in my posts...
  
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JamesPenn

12 years ago

I can't believe people continue to use these subject lines. I get them all the time and it just makes me unsubscribe - and I know it forces many others to do the same.

Plus, I don't think email open rates are all that important. Don't get me wrong I try to get as many people to open my email as possible without using horrible tactics - but I'd rather have a targeted subject line with a targeted message that only gets those interested to open.

James

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Perdant44

12 years ago

If I get an email like this, I automatically put it in my spam folder anyway. However, if I happened to open it by mistake and it was a legitimate offer from an Affiliate but just trying to capture my attention, guess what? Spam folder again. No tricks needed to build a relationship.

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jharper 12 years ago

These have been bugging the heck out of me recently, "Your Order", "Your Payment" rubbish like that nothing to do with the content.....

Straight in the bin and off the mailing list!

If everyone unsubscribes when they receive these mails they'll soon stop doing it!
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- profitsforall 12 years ago
  
  Well, in my case, any email with misleading subject lines like that has a 100% open rate, and I will always click a link in their email.
  
  Unfortunately for them it's the unsubscribe link
  
  Of course it could be a cunning plan - cull their email lists of anyone intelligent enough to be annoyed by such tactics, leaving them with an email list who will be incredibly receptive to every single 30,000 per month push button software offers.
  
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mahal788

12 years ago

That's very sneaky!
Some people would do anything to grab other people's attention.

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Cliff_OBA

12 years ago

I hope no one is teaching this. I know there are people that would follow the teaching though, so its more than possible. These are pretty obvious false headers. Even more annoying are the ones that say things like "You will not believe this amazing strategy", and then I open it, actually do not believe the strategy, and then unsubscribe and delete it. Funny enough, I haven't been mislead at all.

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GotLiveChat

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

Look for all email marketers out there DO NOT make the mistake of having your subject line disconnected from your marketing message just to get the email opened because you are making a big mistake.

Not to mention it violates the CAN-SPAM Act:
Each separate email in violation of the CAN-SPAM Act is subject to penalties of up to $16,000, so non-compliance can be costly. But following the law isn't complicated. Here's a rundown of CAN-SPAM's main requirements:
2. Don't use deceptive subject lines. The subject line must accurately reflect the content of the message.

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realnetworker

12 years ago

I agree 100%! I have been surprised that even some large companies, like hotels or insurance companies try to put something a bit odd in the subject line to catch attention. I also unsubscribe to anyone who bugs me too much, especially with nothing but offers for me to buy things.

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ben1ewis

12 years ago

Absolutely agree Mike. There's no point and no need.
If you're a clever marketer there's always good ways of putting a headline together that is relevant to the content.

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penpal6

12 years ago

yes, I'm also getting such kind of messages and immediately reporting them as junk

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masterjani

12 years ago

This kind of trick will not go long.They themselves put a full stop to their business

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CliveG 12 years ago

Originally Posted by masterjani

This kind of trick will not go long.They themselves put a full stop to their business

I'd rather hoped that spam would die out but it has continued to evolve so must be profitable for someone.
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- fabby 12 years ago
  
  I have also been getting these emails and like others on this thread I just unsubscribe and delete them. Perhaps it's the same people that are creating all these push button products that don,t work that we are seeing lately.
  
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Steve Faber

12 years ago

It's frightening that anyone would even open these to find out whether or not they were marketing emails. I suppose if you know the sender, possibly. So many emails with that kind of subject line are really just phishing scams, it's best not to open them at all. I just hit "delete" and then have them blocked in the future.

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Ruth Hendrickson 12 years ago

I recently unsubscribed after opening an email with the subject line: "Re: Your Order is Complete - Please Save This Email" That one was especially irritating. I didn't realize such subject lines are against the CANN-Spam Act. Even so, it must be profitable or there wouldn't be so many people doing it.
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Per Action Rob

12 years ago

We've always mailed aggressive subject lines for years, and yes I teach it to other marketers to so shame on me.

If you're a marketer, of course you won't like it, but you aren't the target audience for real mailers. Mass consumers are the target and they open and click like crazy when we run more aggressive stuff like:

Subject: Payment received
Body: Wouldn't you like to be receiving notifications like that everyday blah blah blah

If gurus are copying it now, whatever, good for them, it probably works for them to. Maybe you unsubscribe, maybe everyone else in this thread does, but apparently that's an acceptable loss when looking at the numbers it generates to the majority of the list.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but no one is entitled to dictate what's right or wrong, that's a personal choice.

Deceptive marketing in one form or another is the largest driving force of commerce in the world, period.

The world I live in isn't black or white, so my own personal moral compass works in a better way, the end product.

I don't mind deceptive marketing that increases my EPC's by $2.00+ when the end product is worth seeing. I'm just driving more eyeballs to it than a non aggressive marketer.

If that makes me a dirty marketer in a small percentage of peers eyes than so be it, I didn't get where I am by caring what other people think. I won't lose any sleep over it in my paid off house.

You've got to do what works for you, the end. Don't ever let other marketers dictate what you should be doing unless they are also paying your bills for you. Test and make your own decisions.

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Steve Faber

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Per Action Rob

We've always mailed aggressive subject lines for years, and yes I teach it to other marketers to so shame on me.

If you're a marketer, of course you won't like it, but you aren't the target audience for real mailers. Mass consumers are the target and they open and click like crazy when we run more aggressive stuff like:

Subject: Payment received
Body: Wouldn't you like to be receiving notifications like that everyday blah blah blah

If gurus are copying it now, whatever, good for them, it probably works for them to. Maybe you unsubscribe, maybe everyone else in this thread does, but apparently that's an acceptable loss when looking at the numbers it generates to the majority of the list.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but no one is entitled to dictate what's right or wrong, that's a personal choice.

Deceptive marketing in one form or another is the largest driving force of commerce in the world, period.

The world I live in isn't black or white, so my own personal moral compass works in a better way, the end product.

I don't mind deceptive marketing that increases my EPC's by $2.00+ when the end product is worth seeing. I'm just driving more eyeballs to it than a non aggressive marketer.

If that makes me a dirty marketer in a small percentage of peers eyes than so be it, I didn't get where I am by caring what other people think. I won't lose any sleep over it in my paid off house.

You've got to do what works for you, the end. Don't ever let other marketers dictate what you should be doing unless they are also paying your bills for you. Test and make your own decisions.

Yeah aggressive is good, but there's a difference between aggressive and deceptive. You're not going to build very many worthwhile, long term customer (or any other kind of) relationships based on deception.

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bhuff85

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Per Action Rob

We've always mailed aggressive subject lines for years, and yes I teach it to other marketers to so shame on me.

If you're a marketer, of course you won't like it, but you aren't the target audience for real mailers. Mass consumers are the target and they open and click like crazy when we run more aggressive stuff like:

Subject: Payment received
Body: Wouldn't you like to be receiving notifications like that everyday blah blah blah

If gurus are copying it now, whatever, good for them, it probably works for them to. Maybe you unsubscribe, maybe everyone else in this thread does, but apparently that's an acceptable loss when looking at the numbers it generates to the majority of the list.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but no one is entitled to dictate what's right or wrong, that's a personal choice.

Deceptive marketing in one form or another is the largest driving force of commerce in the world, period.

The world I live in isn't black or white, so my own personal moral compass works in a better way, the end product.

I don't mind deceptive marketing that increases my EPC's by $2.00+ when the end product is worth seeing. I'm just driving more eyeballs to it than a non aggressive marketer.

If that makes me a dirty marketer in a small percentage of peers eyes than so be it, I didn't get where I am by caring what other people think. I won't lose any sleep over it in my paid off house.

You've got to do what works for you, the end. Don't ever let other marketers dictate what you should be doing unless they are also paying your bills for you. Test and make your own decisions.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a list of genuine followers who trust every product I recommend and will purchase it without much to think about (because they KNOW that I will ONLY recommend something that I have used myself and would stand behind), rather than get 1,000,000 e-mails and whore them out, product after product, losing subscriber after subscriber, but still managing to get a sale or two (not to mention the fact of always having to get more subscribers).

You can make more money from a list of 100 highly responsive subscribers anyday than a list of 10,000 that dwindles every time they open another deceptive e-mail. Even from a marketers standpoint, an e-mail that got me thinking I must have either received money from someone or got something for free, only to see it turn into a sales pitch to get me to buy a product, you can bet I'd still hit that unsubscribe button.

But, that's just my take on it. Two each his own.

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Mike Hill

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Per Action Rob

We've always mailed aggressive subject lines for years, and yes I teach it to other marketers to so shame on me.

If you're a marketer, of course you won't like it, but you aren't the target audience for real mailers. Mass consumers are the target and they open and click like crazy when we run more aggressive stuff like:

Subject: Payment received
Body: Wouldn't you like to be receiving notifications like that everyday blah blah blah

If gurus are copying it now, whatever, good for them, it probably works for them to. Maybe you unsubscribe, maybe everyone else in this thread does, but apparently that's an acceptable loss when looking at the numbers it generates to the majority of the list.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but no one is entitled to dictate what's right or wrong, that's a personal choice.

Deceptive marketing in one form or another is the largest driving force of commerce in the world, period.

The world I live in isn't black or white, so my own personal moral compass works in a better way, the end product.

I don't mind deceptive marketing that increases my EPC's by $2.00+ when the end product is worth seeing. I'm just driving more eyeballs to it than a non aggressive marketer.

If that makes me a dirty marketer in a small percentage of peers eyes than so be it, I didn't get where I am by caring what other people think. I won't lose any sleep over it in my paid off house.

You've got to do what works for you, the end. Don't ever let other marketers dictate what you should be doing unless they are also paying your bills for you. Test and make your own decisions.

What a joke...

Deceptive practices to get more sales, eyeballs, EPC's or whatever else means that you cannot possibly come up with any other more effective ways to get your message to the masses.

If you don't mind deceptive marketing practices that increase your EPC then why don't you just go out and rob a bank. When the cops get you all you'd have to say is "Well officer, all I wanted was the money".

And your statement...
"You've got to do what works for you, the end. Don't ever let other marketers dictate what you should be doing unless they are also paying your bills for you."

That does not give you the right to break laws, lie, cheat and steal.

Dude you are so off the mark it's not even funny, well actually it is funny because if that's the only way you can make money as a marketer then what will happen when the gig is up, when no one responds to your marketing messages anymore.

There's a huge difference between being aggressive and lying or deceiving but I guess the only one you'll be deceiving in the end is yourself.

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Black Hat Cat

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Per Action Rob

If that makes me a dirty marketer in a small percentage of peers eyes than so be it, I didn't get where I am by caring what other people think. I won't lose any sleep over it in my paid off house.

Tick off the wrong person, and see how much sleep you lose when the FTC takes your paid off house, lol.

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Thaddaeus T. Hogg 12 years ago

Dang, some folks just act like they is Godzilla and everone else is Tokyo... they just gots to tear em down.

Mike, I shore nuff be agreein with you! You are a right smart fellar and you shore nuff know that what separates the winners from the losers is NOT money... but integrity!

I ain't gonna mention no names but I will say this here...

You can take a skunk, dress it all up in a tuxedo and splash foo-foo juice all over it an send it to the prom BUT, don't matter what you be doin... in the end, it's STILL just a skunk!
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salegurus 12 years ago

I spend at least 10mins a day deleting this crap (I have 4 email addresses)
I fantasize daily about software that would track down these MORONS and zaps them with just enough juice via their keyboard to make them think twice before sending this garbage...

To much SCIFI ?Maybe...
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prideseo 12 years ago

I received that too and I didn't open it.
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Chris Sorrell 12 years ago

The past year has seen a lot of these sorts of 'headline grabbing type subject lines but I find it pretty insulting to say the least. Give it a few months and some other variants will start surfacing.
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Laurie Rogers 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

Tick off the wrong person, and see how much sleep you lose when the FTC takes your paid off house, lol.

Yeah no kidding lol

Rob, maybe you might want to go read Frank's blog about how fun it was for him getting nailed to the wall by the FTC, how that impacted his life and the reasons why he conducts his business the way he does now. And that's not a cheap shot at Frank btw (I joke around with him and learn a lot from him) ... but it is REALITY.

I've never had a problem making money by not using deceptive techniques and don't over mail my list ... don't who you learned your stuff from. Even Frank talks about that as well (so do many others) ... but it will blow up in your face eventually, you either get that or you don't.

By the way, where's all the FTC regulations on your "media buying" web site? Seem to recall you should have some disclaimers on there.
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TerranceCharles

12 years ago

I agree with that, I think it's mis-leading. Most people don't like it
either it only weakens our real opt-in confirmation when people start
getting use to not opening "Response Required" type of emails etc
because they know it's not a real or personal email to them.

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markes

12 years ago

Alright, since every nobody on this thread today and for the last 3 days felt like talking **** allow me now to do the REAL talking. This isn't an opinion because opinions don't matter, facts do.

First of all, WHAT THE HELL are all you retarded "Wiz Genius Clean-Legit Article Writers" ****ing talking about?

Do you know who Rob is? Do you know what's the guy achieved and done?

Everything that comes out of his mouth is the equivalent of platinum and it's obvious nobody on this thread knows **** about it because I wouldn't be surprised if after this whole debate got over you'd start another thread and spend the WHOLE day yapping about nothing and reading pathetic blogs while waiting for the next reply. Pathetic.

If you're broke and you feel like slightly deceptive subject lines that simply lure in people to open the email because it's attracting more attention than the others useless scammy 150 emails in the inbox that are "so" cool and clean then that's your problem because getting your email opened and clicked on in the end goal that you're selling something REAL that's worth it and that's going to make you 100 fold what you spent on is totally cool and it's never happened and won't happen in a long time that someone gets hurt or loses sleep because of opening an email with an agressive/slightly deceptive subject line.

Seriously guys, your time is better spent writing articles for other established and highly regarded warriors like you are to earn your fantastic "living online". That's awesome.

But you don't know who Rob is and the fact that he's proven himself over and over and over again on his stuff that he puts out there NOT to make money as the goal on it but to help other "marketers" that can't figure out another way to make money online than writing articles, selling WSO's and retarded ebooks to other know nothings because he makes plenty (and I mean millions) doing the real **** that makes money and it's obvious just by reading 1 post on anything he generously decides to post on here.

But hey even though he makes plenty of money by himself he won't just reveal his skills for free. Defeats the purpose of having them.

To be honest I'm even surprised Rob's wasting his time with people that can't muster more intelligence than "you live in your mom's basement" or others that are comparing a headline to robbing a bank when confronted with facts.

I guess he became a much nicer guy than he already is and softened up a bit and that's great because if I was in this situation where he actually took some of his time to post on a thread then instead of yapping I'd keep on asking question and keep him talking and then when he's done I'd save that stuff and re-read it 50 times because it's ALL gold.

Yeah I'll just stop repeating myself now. You guys honestly aren't being smart about this and it's not like I didn't know this already.

I'll also stop ranting about how Rob is great because basically I bet every single one of those that posted on this thread don't even know what I'm talking about and that's great guys, keep on yapping while reading and following your super tips and tactics blog, that's cool.

And sorry Rob if I rambled too much about how real of a marketer you are and how every letter you type is always gold but I just couldn't bear it to watch all those retards talking ****.

They even dared to bring down Media Buying Monthly while not even bothering watching the free video you're putting on there for free that would probably make them 20k this month if they listened closely and tried what you're talking about! lol I'm sorry for them and I can't say more.

And by the way since I know you were all waiting for a reply feel free to quote my stuff and deconstruct and start analysing it to prove that you have more time to waste. I'm back makin my money.

Nuff said.

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Laurie Rogers

12 years ago

lmao and the multiple personality syndrome begins.

This is hilarious. I'll tell you what Rob, when you go to the FTC and fight for people's rights where spam is concerned and fight for them not to have to pay to send email, then you can argue your point with me and several others over your deceptive okayness in email. And it's okay I'll talk to my media buying guy lol

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markes

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Laurie Rogers

lmao and the multiple personality syndrome begins.

This is hilarious. I'll tell you what Rob, when you go to the FTC and fight for people's rights where spam is concerned and fight for them not to have to pay to send email, then you can argue your point with me and several others over your deceptive okayness in email.

Ok honestly I just stayed an extra 5 minutes just for this one to come up heh.

Were you talking about me or about yourself when speaking of "multiple personality syndrome"?

I think I read somewhere near your signature something to the effect of "I've been around for a very long time (almost 14 years), used to be a member here under a different name YEARS ago.. so don't let the join date fool you."

Maybe I'm mistaken though.

Thanks and good night. I'm not even going to waste an extra minute of my time replying back to you.

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Laurie Rogers

12 years ago

Originally Posted by markes

Ok honestly I just stayed an extra 5 minutes just for this one to come up heh.

Were you talking about me or about yourself when speaking of "multiple personality syndrome"?

I think I read somewhere near your signature something to the effect of "I've been around for a very long time (almost 14 years), used to be a member here under a different name YEARS ago.. so don't let the join date fool you."

Maybe I'm mistaken though.

Thanks and good night. I'm not even going to waste an extra minute of my time replying back to you.

Nope talking about the obvious fact that you're Rob posting another handle trying to gain some credibility back. I know who's who in media buying.

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Thaddaeus T. Hogg 12 years ago

But you don't know who Rob is and the fact that he's proven himself over and over and over again on his stuff

DO WHAT??? Lard have mercy, yore tellin me that some fellar that has less than one hundred posts, joined this here forum in 2010 an argues with all the rest of the folks has "proven himself over and over and over"... and THIS comin from a person who has ONE post? Land sakes fellar, if I didn't be knowin better, I would swear I was comin off a two day binge on some of Uncle Lester's Prime Grade A Shine!!!
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Per Action Rob

12 years ago

There absolutely is a difference, my point however is there is no black and white answer.

Subject line needs to match the message, but aggressive subject line that matches the body always wins and doesn't necessarily cause any adverse affects on the list, or minor if any.

You don't have to test it, maybe that's not your style, but telling other people not to just isn't good advice.

All I know is what works for me and I tell people to find what works for them by actually doing, not listening to other peoples opinions including mine.

It's funny that basically every marketer I meet who earns millions annually all do varying levels of what could be considered deceptive advertising, and all the broke marketers I meet are busy trying to build their true blue hero consulting businesses where they are the voice of sanity in an insane world or some pretty please with sugar on top buy my product offer that no one cares about.

Everything is deceptive, every product you buy and service you subscribe to generally used some form of deception small or large in acquiring you as a customer.

I don't get transported to the aspen slopes when I bite into a york peppermint patty, and a bevy of hot girls don't tackle me and rip my clothes off when I spray on some axe.

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eleary

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Per Action Rob

I don't get transported to the aspen slopes when I bite into a york peppermint patty, and a bevy of hot girls don't tackle me and rip my clothes off when I spray on some axe.

Very funny!!
I think there are two major issues -
1. many internet marketers know nothing about marketing and
2. many aren't in it to build a business....

As to #1 - obviously we need to captivate our audiences' attention - flat out trickery is not the way. In the examples you cited (which I loved) they are exaggerating a feeling you get - they are selling the benefits rather than the features. You feel like a stud when you where AXE - they portrayed that - rather than telling you that you will smell good.....It's not necessarily a lie -

- Plus - since it's an exaggeration of how you will feel - it's obvious to the audience that it's just that...
In the subject lines mentioned- they are flat out lies - having nothing to do with the product, with what the product will do for you or how it will make you feel......

#2 - Many internet marketers are trying to make a fast buck - they don't care about building relationships or building a business - sell it to the person - or the person isn't worth being on the list.....I imagine they won't last - However, there are all kinds!!!

If you have followed the crisis in Japan - the media did the same thing. I was watching Bill ORiely last night - he went off on a tangent about NBC (I think) and how they really put a dramatic "Spin" on the crisis; whereas Fox did a more truthful story. What happened?? NBC surpassed Fox in viewers! People like the drama - the extreme, the exaggeration....I don't agree that they should have done that - but you can see that it sells!

So what does that mean for us?? Well, for me, I would like to be as truthful as possible while adding the excitement, the hope, the dream, it's necessary to sell. Think about the products you have bought - most of them are b/c the sales page "got you"!

You can have the best product in the world - but without good marketing (which includes sales letters) no one will ever see it.....

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dgridley

12 years ago

What's worse is those who will utilize the same technique as an affiliate of the original marketer..

I immediately delete those types of emails, don't even open or read them so in my mind, besides being somewhat shady and unethical, they are wasted energy that could be spend in a more productive way.

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Per Action Rob

12 years ago

Seems everyone keeps using a this or that mentality which isn't how it works.

Of course you want a responsive list, but assuming one of our million subscriber lists that we mail offers to everyday and sometimes use aggressive copy is less responsive than a 10000 list that is rarely mailed just isn't true.

The facts which you can confirm with any email provider are that the less you mail, the worse your list performs and the higher your unsubscribe.

I do have a list of 20,000 or so internet marketers which I rarely mail, they are fellow marketers and I only mail them stuff I think is worth checking out, that's a choice.

Our consumer lists are different, they get in the habit of seeing an email from us everyday, if they find the subject line intriguing, they open, if they like the body copy, they click, if they like the offer, they buy.

I know a few clickbank guys that whore their internet marketer lists everyday and make a fortune each month vs guys who mail sparingly and can't make even a few hundred bucks in commissions each month, so it works that way in all industries.

A lot of people are unnecessarily afraid of "burning out" their list. Doesn't happen, why? because shockingly you aren't the only person emailing them. Your competitors and peers are happily mailing them constantly, so are all kinds of other companies they do business with, so you become forgotten easily and 9 times out of 10 you aren't getting any mental gold stars from them for mailing less.

It's not a coincidence that 9 out of 10 of the biggest names in the IM guru space send you an email basically everyday with some new product to look at or webinar to join.

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ninon 12 years ago

I have read the results of one research somewhere, the study was about the attitudes and opinions of the average consumer toward permission based email.

One of the results was, consumers are more interested in emails with subjects lines pertaining directly to them (transaction confirmations and account summaries) and relatively less interested in newsletters and promotional offers pushed by companies.

But the main point is, the subject line needs to match the content. You can't keep customer loyalty with relationships based on deception. You trick your customer, you loose your customer
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Eager2SEO

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Per Action Rob

Seems everyone keeps using a this or that mentality which isn't how it works.

Of course you want a responsive list, but assuming one of our million subscriber lists that we mail offers to everyday and sometimes use aggressive copy is less responsive than a 10000 list that is rarely mailed just isn't true.

The facts which you can confirm with any email provider are that the less you mail, the worse your list performs and the higher your unsubscribe.

I do have a list of 20,000 or so internet marketers which I rarely mail, they are fellow marketers and I only mail them stuff I think is worth checking out, that's a choice.

Our consumer lists are different, they get in the habit of seeing an email from us everyday, if they find the subject line intriguing, they open, if they like the body copy, they click, if they like the offer, they buy.

I know a few clickbank guys that whore their internet marketer lists everyday and make a fortune each month vs guys who mail sparingly and can't make even a few hundred bucks in commissions each month, so it works that way in all industries.

A lot of people are unnecessarily afraid of "burning out" their list. Doesn't happen, why? because shockingly you aren't the only person emailing them. Your competitors and peers are happily mailing them constantly, so are all kinds of other companies they do business with, so you become forgotten easily and 9 times out of 10 you aren't getting any mental gold stars from them for mailing less.

It's not a coincidence that 9 out of 10 of the biggest names in the IM guru space send you an email basically everyday with some new product to look at or webinar to join.

Are you admitting that to really make big bucks you have to do some "questionable things?" I probably know the answer to this, I look at my inbox every day and see what all the "big name gurus" are firing off almost daily.

The ultimate advice seems to be to look in your inbox, copy, rinse and repeat. Set up a simple blog with some PLR marketing advice, collect emails, blast with affiliate offers, and occasionally send some marketing tips. They must be either crazy or making cash windfalls that they keep sending that stuff out.

I agree with your other posts too, pretty much every commercial on TV cherry coats products with lies. A car commercial showing traffic standing still when you buy a certain car is no different from an email saying "Clickbank Sale! Open Immediately."

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Mike Hill

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Per Action Rob

Seems everyone keeps using a this or that mentality which isn't how it works.

Of course you want a responsive list, but assuming one of our million subscriber lists that we mail offers to everyday and sometimes use aggressive copy is less responsive than a 10000 list that is rarely mailed just isn't true.

The facts which you can confirm with any email provider are that the less you mail, the worse your list performs and the higher your unsubscribe.

I do have a list of 20,000 or so internet marketers which I rarely mail, they are fellow marketers and I only mail them stuff I think is worth checking out, that's a choice.

Our consumer lists are different, they get in the habit of seeing an email from us everyday, if they find the subject line intriguing, they open, if they like the body copy, they click, if they like the offer, they buy.

I know a few clickbank guys that whore their internet marketer lists everyday and make a fortune each month vs guys who mail sparingly and can't make even a few hundred bucks in commissions each month, so it works that way in all industries.

A lot of people are unnecessarily afraid of "burning out" their list. Doesn't happen, why? because shockingly you aren't the only person emailing them. Your competitors and peers are happily mailing them constantly, so are all kinds of other companies they do business with, so you become forgotten easily and 9 times out of 10 you aren't getting any mental gold stars from them for mailing less.

It's not a coincidence that 9 out of 10 of the biggest names in the IM guru space send you an email basically everyday with some new product to look at or webinar to join.

The 9 or 10 big marketing people in the IM niche are not who you think they are and the ones who are in the spotlight are unfortunately going broke. Gee do you think that's why there is any coincidence as to the number of emails you get from them? They are desperate and that's the real truth.

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OnlineMasterMind

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

the ones who are in the spotlight are unfortunately going broke.

So...

Frank Kern
Jeff Walker
Eben Pagen
Yanik Silver
Mike Filsaime
Matt Bacak
...etc

are all going BROKE?

If you were to say something along the lines of "they don't have a real business and constantly have to mail you and promote different products and launches to make money."

Sure.

But to say they are all going broke?

You just lost all of your credibility right there.

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Mike Hill

12 years ago

Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind

So...

Frank Kern
Jeff Walker
Eben Pagen
Yanik Silver
Mike Filsaime
Matt Bacak
...etc

are all going BROKE?

If you were to say something along the lines of "they don't have a real business and constantly have to mail you and promote different products and launches to make money."

Sure.

But to say they are all going broke?

You just lost all of your credibility right there.

Then I guess I lose all credibility... LOL ... Six months from now come back to this thread and re-read my posts and then make that call okay. There's a lot of things going on that I am noticing like sharing the same product between 5 - 7 marketers, naming it something different and putting up the most outrageous (lies) sales page telling you it's a 3 step push button system that automatically make you money. Yeah, you know the kinds of products I'm talking about.

As for credibility, I think mine is just fine and is reliable. Not my fault that I can stand here with one foot forward and decide I'm not going to be like the rest of them, not one bit. Sorry if my integrity bothers you so much as to say I have lost it all. Not even close.

PS. For the record I never mentioned any names... that would be on you!

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dking1 12 years ago

Thanks. I quite agree with you. I received such e mails a lot with misleading title. Marketers have to learn to do things right, there is no short cut. There are other mistakes people should avoid in marketing particularly for beginners. Avoid the following big mistakes:

1. Wrong and False Expectation: A lot of people come to make money online with wrong expectation. They believe in a lie and some came in out rightly deceived. Some of the common misconceptions is that this is a get rich quick system and of course many fall for ads that promise overnight millions. The truth is that online business is like any other business, it takes a process and there is no short cut. It will take a lot of hard and smart work. True you can make money online but you must give it all it takes.
2. Lack Of Understanding Of The Basic: Many people fall into this pitfall in their attempt to make money fast. While there are strategies that can help you at times to make money online fast, you must learn the basics, such as having good site that will convert good products that people will buy, effective methods to generate targeted traffic.
3. Good Mentoring Programs: One of the pitfalls you may fall into is trying to make money online on your own. You may have to struggle a lot. It will be good if you can find yourself a truthful and effective mentoring program where you can be coached successfully. I know it's difficult these days to find good and affordable coaching for your online marketing but with more research you can find. One of such program that is quite effective and I have personally learnt from is Free site signup. This program is good with their step-by-step training. They even check you up on every step of the way as you have to record your activity for them to see if you should go to the next step. All you need to start this program is $8.95 for the first month and all other month, only $8. With this they give you a free domain name, a 35 webpage with provable niches and a full hosting. What else are you looking for?
4. Unprofitable Niches: This pitfall has ruined many affiliates who want to make money online. Many people have argued that the best niche for you to promote is the area of your interest. While this is true, I must say it is not the total truth. While to some extent, you should have some form of interest in the niche you want to promote, the niche must be equally profitable. There must be a sizable number of people who want to buy what you are selling. It doesn't matter if you like cheese bugger so well and nobody wants to buy it-the truth is that you won't sell and if you don't sell, you won't make any money online.
5. Inactivity: Many people desiring to make money online never did because they fail to act on the information they have. Don't just think to do it-Do it. If you do nothing about what you learn, you can get nothing out. If you will avoid these basic pitfalls, you will surely be on your way to making money online.
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OnlineMasterMind 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

Six months from now come back to this thread and re-read my posts and then make that call okay.

Ah okay, now you're retracting your statement.

You realize what you said was flat out wrong... They are NOT going broke.

"BUTTTT.... in 6 months they will be."

Yup... uh huh... sure

EDIT: For the record, your integrity doesn't bother me. Good for you. I agree those kind of email lines are pitiful.

The point is you said "the gurus in the spotlight are going broke..." If you can't see how blatantly WRONG that statement is, I'm not sure why anyone would find you a credible source of information.

It's not opinion; it's just FACT.
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Steven Wagenheim

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Per Action Rob

Seems everyone keeps using a this or that mentality which isn't how it works.

Of course you want a responsive list, but assuming one of our million subscriber lists that we mail offers to everyday and sometimes use aggressive copy is less responsive than a 10000 list that is rarely mailed just isn't true.

The facts which you can confirm with any email provider are that the less you mail, the worse your list performs and the higher your unsubscribe.

I do have a list of 20,000 or so internet marketers which I rarely mail, they are fellow marketers and I only mail them stuff I think is worth checking out, that's a choice.

Our consumer lists are different, they get in the habit of seeing an email from us everyday, if they find the subject line intriguing, they open, if they like the body copy, they click, if they like the offer, they buy.

I know a few clickbank guys that whore their internet marketer lists everyday and make a fortune each month vs guys who mail sparingly and can't make even a few hundred bucks in commissions each month, so it works that way in all industries.

A lot of people are unnecessarily afraid of "burning out" their list. Doesn't happen, why? because shockingly you aren't the only person emailing them. Your competitors and peers are happily mailing them constantly, so are all kinds of other companies they do business with, so you become forgotten easily and 9 times out of 10 you aren't getting any mental gold stars from them for mailing less.

It's not a coincidence that 9 out of 10 of the biggest names in the IM guru space send you an email basically everyday with some new product to look at or webinar to join.

Rob, I think you might be missing Mike's point or maybe I'm
misinterpreting it.

There is a BIG difference between and aggressive headline and an outright
lie.

"You Just Got $100 In Your PayPal"

when it is nothing but a sales pitch, is an outright lie.

It has nothing to do with being aggressive.

And if those are the kind of subjects you use, please let me know where
all your squeeze pages are so I can know where to avoid them.

Aggressive is fine...Lying is something entirely different.

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clever7

12 years ago

Only spammers use such titles. Yahoo solves this problem sending their messages directly to the trash.

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westgateok

12 years ago

I couldnt agree more, anytime I get an email that doesnt make "sense" I discard it immediately

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tdj

12 years ago

I agree. The trust factor goes right out the window. These subject lines are a total turn off for me.

Todd

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Per Action Rob

12 years ago

Comparing a subject line to robbing a bank, that's genius, and totally the same thing Mike, you've really hit it on the head, I must be crazy.

Maybe all the gurus are going broke, that's about the one the one thing you've said that's probably true, but that's because gurus aren't marketers, they're no talent hacks for the most part and are one dimensional.

I however am far from going broke, and so are all my close friends in the industry who would never put out a product of any kind, they prefer to be below the radar. I do enjoy helping other marketers make some profits instead of most of the crap I see peddled on this forum and in every email but 99% of my profits will always be from owning offers and promoting offers.

Obviously most consumers wouldn't agree with you and they're the only important people. I get the reports on our email campaigns every week and my unsubscribe rates are no higher than that of any average list, but do you know what is higher than the average? my opens and clicks, wow.

The points you're making Mike are just absurd, I do realize you are another high end consultant and this whole internet good guy thing is your main deal surrounding that, so good for you and good for anyone that agrees with you, I however don't judge people, it's not my place to do that.

To compare what I do to robbing a bank makes you lose any credibility in my opinion, you have no idea what I promote or how I run my offers, you just don't like some of the subject lines I use to grab attention while competing with the other 150 average emails a person gets today.

Maybe you're so jaded because most of the email you get is from other gurus who treat the customers like **** with **** products, that I can agree with.

I'm a direct response marketer and actually a really good one. The FTC won't be banging on my door, they could care less about slightly deceptive advertising, if you think they do then you know nothing about what's going on in the industry. It's not flogs and fake news sites that caused the issue, its the offers themselves, not allowing refunds, charging $100 a month for PLR content from 2001 that's never updated, call centers taking their last dime, that's what its about.

I don't believe in any of those practices, so I don't have anything to worry about. If you want to put me into the devil category because with an aggressive subject line as your only point of reference, go ahead, but personally I think high end consultants are just as bad as anything you call these other guys.

I don't care how much knowledge someone claims to have or actually has, I've yet to meet a consultant who could actually build a million dollar business (except consulting) by themselves with their own money, and I've yet to meet one person who says they made their millions thanks to paying some guy tens of thousands of dollars to coach them.

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Steven Wagenheim 12 years ago

Makes you wonder how many morons are running email lists.
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- James Clark 12 years ago
  
  To the OP,
  
  I hate that and quickly unsubscribe. Don't get that many but I have been getting a few here lately. Clearly, don't know how I got on their list in the first place. It must have been one of those days where my mind went to sleep on me.
  
  "Well it ain't the Arrow its the Indian"
  
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Simon Ashari

12 years ago

Agree with the OP. Been seeing (and unsubscribing from) many of these emails over the past 6 months or so.

Wonder who has been teaching this stuff.

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seobro

12 years ago

I add them to the block list as they are spam. Most are selling products such as see alice or rorex reprica.

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jonnyrhinestone

12 years ago

I think email marketers who use this method are using a shotgun approach. They try and hit their target by emailing as many people as possible with a wide spray and then hope they hit something. They're just playing the percentages by hoping that if 25% of people open their emails, then 5% of people will click on something in it.

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donny531

12 years ago

I agree Mike it seems deceptive to me. Another one ive gotten that I really like is one saying i've made a sale or earned an affiliate commision only to open the email and see its a sales pitch... thats when i look for that unsubscribe link...

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Mike Hill

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Per Action Rob
If that makes me a dirty marketer in a small percentage of peers eyes than so be it, I didn't get where I am by caring what other people think. I won't lose any sleep over it in my paid off house.

Why is it that some people have to validate their arguments with stuff they own?

Just sayin...

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Per Action Rob

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat

Tick off the wrong person, and see how much sleep you lose when the FTC takes your paid off house, lol.

If the FTC has been through any of our offers they're more than happy with how they are run, and we don't have a single BBB or filed complaint so I doubt they worry about me and my aggressive subject lines with hundreds of other offers out there sucking people dry.

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

Why is it that some people have to validate their arguments with stuff they own?

Just sayin...

Actually its about trying to point out to people that paying all this money *cough* to all these "experts" is why most of this forum and every forum full of internet marketers never really make any money.

It's easy to tell people what to do, not so easy to actually do it. The only reason consultants aren't on the FTC hit list is they don't get reported to the attorney general when a business pays them a fortune and gets nothing of value.

Also, I remember you trying to get most of the top gurus to promote your couple thousand dollar product when it came out. So even though they are dirty snake oil salesman who are going broke, you were happy to tap their lists and try and get another couple grand out of their customers?

I wonder what the success rate on that product was, I'd bet no better than any other product, but good or bad it's on the buyer to make something of it or get a refund. Even still, you and I both know that 98% of buyers do nothing with a product even if its great so technically you knew going into it, that you'd be making potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars selling a product that most people would statistically be no better off by having.

Not so black and white when you look at the facts. So does that make you a bad person for putting out a product when you know most of that money is really just another loss for the buyer?

Is an internet marketing product the same as a bread machine? They both have about the same use rate, but then again when you use the bread machine you're generally guaranteed a loaf of bread and it doesn't cost $3000.

I'm very clear on how the world works, I do the best I can, seems to me a lot of people criticizing others are conveniently overlooking how they contribute to what anyone outside of our industry would think is a pretty shady practice. All these high end courses, big consulting, even these stupid ebooks in everyones signatures here and WSO's, affiliate "review" sites for whatever new piece of **** clickbank product is out this week.

Hate to break it to you guys, but basically everyone in this forum is guilty of deceptive marketing in one way or another.

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Steven Wagenheim

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Per Action Rob

If the FTC has been through any of our offers they're more than happy with how they are run, and we don't have a single BBB or filed complaint so I doubt they worry about me and my aggressive subject lines with hundreds of other offers out there sucking people dry.

Actually its about trying point out to people that paying all this money *cough* to all these "experts" is why most of this forum and every forum full of internet marketers never really make any money.

It's easy to tell people what to do, not so easy to actually do it. The only reason consultants aren't on the FTC hit list is they don't get reported to the attorney general when a business pays them a fortune and gets nothing of value.

Also, I remember you trying to get most of the top gurus to promote your couple thousand dollar product when it came out. So even though they are dirty snake oil salesman who are going broke, you were happy to tap their lists and try and get another couple grand out of their customers?

I wonder what the success rate on that product was, I'd bet no better than any other product, but good or bad it's on the buyer to make something of it or get a refund. Even still, you and I both know that 98% of buyers do nothing with a product even if its great so technically you knew going into it, that you'd be making potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars selling a product that most people would statistically be no better off by having.

Not so black and white when you look at the facts. So does that make you a bad person for putting out a product when you know most of that money is really just another loss for the buyer?

Is an internet marketing product the same as a bread machine? They both have about the same use rate, but then again when you use the bread machine you're generally guaranteed a loaf of bread and it doesn't cost $3000.

I'm very clear on how the world works, I do the best I can, seems to me a lot of people criticizing others are conveniently overlooking how they contribute to what anyone outside of our industry would think is a pretty shady practice. All these high end courses, big consulting, even these stupid ebooks in everyones signatures here and WSO's, affiliate "review" sites for whatever new piece of **** clickbank product is out this week.

Hate to break it to you guys, but basically everyone in this forum is guilty of deceptive marketing in one way or another.

As much as I hate to admit this, you make a valid point.

But...do you have to add fuel to the fire?

Yes, when I create a product and sell it, I know that most people will
let it sit on their hard drive and do nothing with it.

Hell, I just offered a lifetime coaching class (yes, lifetime) where I will
help you until you succeed...no questions asked.

Do you know how many people never even contacted me after paying?

But...and here is the difference...I at least try to actually put something
out of value...something that I myself used and had success with. It's not
my fault if people are lazy.

I wasn't lazy. I made something of myself. So there's no reason why the
next person, provided he has an average amount of intelligence and puts
in a little effort, can't do the same.

I was broke and almost homeless when I started out 8 years ago.

Why was I able to succeed if it's all crap?

At some point you need to take some accountability for what you do and
at least try to do the right thing.

Sending out emails with "You Just Got Paid" in the subject line is not
being accountable to anything but your bottom line.

Yeah, it's a fine line.

But at least I know where not to cross it.

Which is more than I can say for a lot of people out there.

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Per Action Rob

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

As much as I hate to admit this, you make a valid point.

But...do you have to add fuel to the fire?

Yes, when I create a product and sell it, I know that most people will
let it sit on their hard drive and do nothing with it.

Hell, I just offered a lifetime coaching class (yes, lifetime) where I will
help you until you succeed...no questions asked.

Do you know how many people never even contacted me after paying?

But...and here is the difference...I at least try to actually put something
out of value...something that I myself used and had success with. It's not
my fault if people are lazy.

I wasn't lazy. I made something of myself. So there's no reason why the
next person, provided he has an average amount of intelligence and puts
in a little effort, can't do the same.

I was broke and almost homeless when I started out 8 years ago.

Why was I able to succeed if it's all crap?

At some point you need to take some accountability for what you do and
at least try to do the right thing.

Sending out emails with "You Just Got Paid" in the subject line is not
being accountable to anything but your bottom line.

Yeah, it's a fine line.

But at least I know where not to cross it.

Which is more than I can say for a lot of people out there.

Well value has nothing to do with the marketing, that discussion is separate, so let's assume for sake of argument that everything has great value and focus on the marketing that makes the sales first.

You admit you're another guy that sells marketing advice and coaching, my personal opinions aside, you also honestly recognize most people who buy your stuff don't ever use it or benefit from it.

Let's say it's fantastic quality stuff, so what? If you KNOW that most of your income comes from taking people's money that will never benefit in ANY way, then what kind of business is that?

I'm not judging you or anyone, that's how commerce needs to work in the real world or it wouldn't exist.

I support you making money however you choose to do so, it's your business, but there's a ton of pots calling kettles black lately and I just got sick of all these false heroes acting like they're so high and mighty.

You choose, like most do, to blame the customer, but that's a convenient way to not accept any responsibility. Every company does it from cosmetic manufacturers to health clubs.

Your typical american consumer would probably call you and most everyone else on this forum a scammer if presented with the facts on success rate of these products whether they be $37 or $37,000.

You can call me a scumbag for using aggressive subject lines, but I can call most of you scumbags for the low quality offers you mail out with your non-aggressive marketing.

"My friend Blah, had been making $400,000 a month with youtube marketing underground, he's finally revealing his secrets and blah blah blah scam scam scam"

You think that's legitimate marketing? Please, you're not friends with these people, nor do they make 400k from anything besides selling products if they're even lucky to make that much. You haven't seen the product and if you have, you know it's a bunch of a half truths and untested ideas.

I get Mike Hill's emails, I get every gurus emails and virtually every CPA offers emails, we look at all of that to see what people are mailing.

Mike Hill doesn't promote every day or week like most, I'll give him that, and he's never sent a subject line with "payment received" I'll give him that to but I could say a lot about some of the things I've seen him promote.

Like any other marketer I've seen him use false scarcity and a lot of other things that we can sit and call deceptive or misleading if we were the supreme court, but as marketers we don't look at it that way.

I however don't think that makes him a bad person, nor is any of what I said a criticism though it sounds that way. He's a businessman and like any businessman he lets the customers choose what they buy and don't buy.

People need to start getting real, virtually no member of this forum is innocent. I don't care if you do SEO for amazon products, it could be argued that you're just trying to game the rankings to steal commissions for yourself, and also, I bet you don't own that flat screen tv your "review" blog is pushing. So that would make you a liar, people want reviews from people who actually own the product, or from a reputable company that acutally takes the time to really give it a review.

There's few marketers, especially the "internet good guys" who I can't shoot holes in all day long if they want to start a debate.

You can be the one marketer who painfully reviews and tests every product before you choose to advertise it, or choose not to sell anything that doesn't have a 100% customer success rate, but that's the same thing as choosing to never make any money.

You can always take all these consultants word for it though, they're good guys and they don't ever do deceptive marketing, probably because they are stacking so much cash bleeding their clients dry that they don't need to ever make money from true marketing.

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bionictortoise 12 years ago

A couple of replies on page 1 of this thread seemed to indicate the OP was talking about Spam. I'm certain they were talking about emails from internet marketers they had subscribed to.

The cool thing about being annoyed about stuff other IMers do, is that I know not to do it myself. Because if it annoys me, it will annoy others. But misleading titles are just foolish.

It saddens me that I can't opt out of one of the culprits who does this a LOT, because I bought one of his products (a good one) and want to receive updates, of which there have been quite a few. But he does insist on implying something is an update, when it clearly is a totally unrelated affiliate product. (I need a smiley here for anger. The "mad" one looks more sad than mad!)

I also don't open emails with the title "Watch this video NOW!" and I unsub from people who say in the email: "Go to this blog post" (or video) without giving any indication of the content. These are the same people who claim to know everything about copywriting.

We should all emulate all the marketers who make us smile and who don't insult our intelligence, then we'll keep our subscribers.
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Brianne

12 years ago

I usually end up deleting stuff like that...won't even bother opening. I can't see how that tactic would be beneficial to anyone's business.

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mrizos

12 years ago

gmail...mark as spam...bye bye...

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Anup Mahajan

12 years ago

Yeah these kind of mails are irritating especially when they come from a respected marketer. I usually delete them and never click on the links contained in them ...

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ojari

12 years ago

I don't go too far into such emails,I unsub immediately.

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AlanT

12 years ago

Every email I've received with such subject lines have all been spam, and I report them as such.

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Per Action Rob

12 years ago

First of all I don't know who Frank is supposed to be, probably because I don't waste time reading blogs.

Second of all, if you read anything I said, you'd know I have little need for concern from the FTC. If you think they're going to kick in my door for mailing "Payment Received" as a subject line you'd be mistaken. They are far more worried about the real crooks who are draining peoples bank accounts leaving them unable to pay for rent and food.

Thirdly, my media buying site doesnt need disclaimers, because I don't make any claims in the first place. It is what it is, me buying media that I show the results of, people join or they don't if it appeals to them to see real traffic being bought.

You don't see me using any words like magic bullet, or autopilot, or point click profit because none of those exist. I talk about the real stuff, the hard work, the losses, the mistakes, so if the FTC wants to pick that site of all my businesses great, I'll be happy to go to court, the publicity would be great.

"FTC nails guy who gives solid advice and let's people take no questions asked refunds"

Doubtful, but hey you never know.

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Laurie Rogers

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Per Action Rob

First of all I don't know who Frank is supposed to be, probably because I don't waste time reading blogs.

Second of all, if you read anything I said, you'd know I have little need for concern from the FTC. If you think they're going to kick in my door for mailing "Payment Received" as a subject line you'd be mistaken. They are far more worried about the real crooks who are draining peoples bank accounts leaving them unable to pay for rent and food.

Thirdly, my media buying site doesnt need disclaimers, because I don't make any claims in the first place. It is what it is, me buying media that I show the results of, people join or they don't if it appeals to them to see real traffic being bought.

You don't see me using any words like magic bullet, or autopilot, or point click profit because none of those exist. I talk about the real stuff, the hard work, the losses, the mistakes, so if the FTC wants to pick that site of all my businesses great, I'll be happy to go to court, the publicity would be great.

"FTC nails guy who gives solid advice and let's people take no questions asked refunds"

Doubtful, but hey you never know.

Maybe you should do more reading versus thinking you know everything about this stuff works. Considering Frank Kern was the first IM'er to be sued by the FTC, a little logistics into the history of it wouldn't cause you any harm. You don't have time to waste reading blogs, but yet you're in here rambling? You seem to think that you have all the answers when the reality is you're way off base.

It's okay to be cocky and arrogant, but it is clear you have a lot to learn and yeah you should have disclaimers on your site whether or not "you think they're not necessary". Why take the risk if you've got nothing to hide or be afraid of? You're here for the quick and fast bucks, don't care who you stomp on or how you get it and think, "oh well the FTC won't nail me." Arrogance at it's finest. All it takes dude, is a few people reporting your email messages, some person that read your site wrong and you're under investigation - whether or not they were false accusations.

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O0o0O

12 years ago

This type of marketing certainly devalues the subscriber list. I would encourage any list builders to stay away from this method because it will nullify all the hard work you put in to build it up in the first place.

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Brian Alaway

12 years ago

I get a lot of those subject lines too but they're mostly from lists I've subscribed to. They go to a free email address not to my business email. I actually read very few of them. But it can be quite educational to take note of those that I find compelling and those that I find simply annoying. Either way it's an education. If the sender just sends the same type of subject lines time after time, I simply unsubscribe as there's no education to be gotten from them, they're just boring and annoying.

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Per Action Rob

12 years ago

Actually I don't think I know everything, a few things I know very well however. The last thing I need to do is get my education on marketing from any guru, I get it from my lawyers, peers and testing things on my own as well as reading real industry news publications.

Being cocky has nothing to do with it and you know nothing about my business so don't talk to me about fast bucks, and stomping on people, if those are your comments after all the discussion here then you might take your own advice and learn a lot more.

And I'm here rambling because I actually believe in exposing hypocrites and charlatans for what they are. I'm so sick or all the criticisms lately, I could spend an hour deconstructing all of Frank Kerns products and emails to, you think he doesn't do aggressive marketing or ever mislead customers? Come on.

At least Frank embraces the fact that he's a wolf now, walking around in white suits and shades. I like that, he is who he is, yet I still don't associate with him when people say Frank, because I don't buy courses or worship consultants.

The amount of hypocrisy when it comes to marketing is absurd and not one person in this thread has refuted anything I've said, because I can back up everything I say with fact and proof. Instead people want to tell me the FTC is going to come after me for subject lines, get real.

I'm sorry I learn by doing and get my advice from experts, just not the "experts" a lot of people here think are the final word in marketing.

I unlike everyone else have the balls to admit I use aggressive marketing when I feel its needed and I don't pretend that everything is perfect.

The FTC should come after a lot of people on this forum before they ever look at me, and everyone knows its true, that's why no one disputes anything I said thus far.

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Laurie Rogers

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Per Action Rob

Actually I don't think I know everything, a few things I know very well however. The last thing I need to do is get my education on marketing from any guru, I get it from my lawyers, peers and testing things on my own as well as reading real industry news publications.

Being cocky has nothing to do with it and you know nothing about my business so don't talk to me about fast bucks, and stomping on people, if those are your comments after all the discussion here then you might take your own advice and learn a lot more.

And I'm here rambling because I actually believe in exposing hypocrites and charlatans for what they are. I'm so sick or all the criticisms lately, I could spend an hour deconstructing all of Frank Kerns products and emails to, you think he doesn't do aggressive marketing or ever mislead customers? Come on.

At least Frank embraces the fact that he's a wolf now, walking around in white suits and shades. I like that, he is who he is, yet I still don't associate with him when people say Frank, because I don't buy courses or worship consultants.

The amount of hypocrisy when it comes to marketing is absurd and not one person in this thread has refuted anything I've said, because I can back up everything I say with fact and proof. Instead people want to tell me the FTC is going to come after me for subject lines, get real.

I'm sorry I learn by doing and get my advice from experts, just not the "experts" a lot of people here think are the final word in marketing.

I unlike everyone else have the balls to admit I use aggressive marketing when I feel its needed and I don't pretend that everything is perfect.

The FTC should come after a lot of people on this forum before they ever look at me, and everyone knows its true, that's why no one disputes anything I said thus far.

LOL and again your arrogance says it all, if you think people can't tell anything about your business by the way you communicate and what you're saying in your commentary you're sadly mistaken. No kidding the FTC should look at a lot of people in this forum, but the reality is they choose who they receive complaints about and you can state all you want that won't come after you because of some sketchy headline, but don't fool yourself. Your argument is arrogance and nothing but, it's not viable, nor is it factual.

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Fun to Write

12 years ago

These types of headings are disingenuous at best, and makes you suspect some phishing scam at worst.

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paulie888 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Fun to Write

These types of headings are disingenuous at best, and makes you suspect some phishing scam at worst.

In addition to that, while you may probably experience a short-term increase in conversions with deceptive headlines, I'm certain it's going to drastically affect your unsubscribe rate!
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dejoliet31

12 years ago

Ditto. I always delete email with these kinds of subject lines. Anyway, whenever there is a disconnect between the subject line and the sales message, your customer is most often lost. So what's the advantage if the object is to garner a desired action or sale?

Unfortunately, these moronic methods cause harm to other email marketers.

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goindeep

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

In the last few days I've received emails with subject lines like:

PayPal Deposit Notification
Your Bank Account Information Has Changed
Receipt For your Payment

If that was the subject line, thats not a big mistake. That is SPAM and probably fraud! I would like to see what the FED think about that one!

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J Bold

12 years ago

Yes, email headlines like this are the stupid way to do it.

But go ahead, if you want to be stupid.

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Per Action Rob

12 years ago

No, people can't tell anything about my business from the way that I communicate, we call every new customer on our physical products and welcome them, assign them a specific rep for questions and cancels, send high quality product at fair prices.

I use some aggressive marketing to drive thousands of customers a day instead of hundreds, or more likely dozens with boring advertising, which would be a loss of thousands of dollars a day.

The FTC only cares when single mothers and seniors are being evicted thanks to charges from other offers out there, and including some of the gurus you probably worship with their high end coaching call centers.

You don't know me at all, you may not like the way I advertise, you may not like my point of view, but I'll put any product of mine and its customer base against anything you've ever done and then tell me what a devil I am.

Whether its an anti aging creme or a media buying site, my stuff crushes industry norms on rention rates and refunds. A lot of people don't like my style, a lot of people do, that's a choice, but you're totally wrong about translating that to the business side.

The discussion is about aggressive marketing, you obviously join the group that doesn't like it, but that has nothing to do with the end product.

To be honest with you, the reason I'm arrogant if anything with you is if you support Frank Kern, then call me a jerk, you're a total hypocrite. I actually like Frank's attitude and wish him continued millions but if you can talk down to me while in the same breath recommending him as an alternative to deceptive marketing, sorry friend, you have got pounds of wool over your eyes.

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Laurie Rogers 12 years ago

First of all one does not need to support anyone to learn business from them, I study a lot of people in business, check out their marketing tactics etc. etc. And I am well aware of what Frank does, so hardly a sheeple. There are many people I disagree with in lieu of marketing tactics and this topic isn't all about being aggressive, it's about being deceptive in headlines of email marketing in order to get people to open them, which you seem to think is perfectly acceptable to make a buck since you admit to using those techniques in order to garner people to make a buck. That tells me A LOT about you as a person and your lack of ethics in business period and if you can't understand that, you my friend are the one with wool over your eyes.

Don't preach to me about taking anything I've ever done and putting it against your deceitful means so called internet marketing especially when it comes to media buying because what you're pitching in media buying on your little site is a drop in the bucket to what big media buying entails.
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- Steven Wagenheim 12 years ago
  
  Rob. I mean this seriously. I would really like to see just one of your,
  what you call, aggressive campaigns just so I can see if I feel that it is
  just that, aggressive and not a flat out lie.
  
  I have no problem with aggressive advertising. If you can deliver the goods,
  all the more power to you.
  
  What I don't like, and I get these all the time, is when an email pops into
  my in box telling me I just made $2,497 PayPal or whatever absurd figure
  they're giving me.
  
  Hell, tell me in your subject that you've got a product guaranteed to make
  me 6 figures a month. I have no problem with that. But don't tell me I made
  money when I didn't. My time is too valuable to waste on emails that are
  nothing more than trickery.
  
  And if you can't see the difference between that and "aggressive"
  advertising, then I guess we really don't have a whole lot more to say
  to each other.
  
  And please don't assume to know anything about my business. I am
  probably one of the most straight up guys you'll meet in this business.
  My last sales letter told people in bold print that there was a ton of work
  involved in this offer.
  
  It still sold out.
  
  People respect me because I don't promise them the moon.
  
  So in spite of what you might think, that strategy does work with the
  right market.
  
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wkathome

12 years ago

That's what I love about gmail. I can select a whole group of spammers emails and filter them right into the trash bend, never to be bothered again.

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Per Action Rob

12 years ago

Well you're right, I'm a terrible person for using deceptive subject lines from time to time, I should be hung in the town square and you, the hero should be the one to kick the block out from underneath me since your so righteous.

As far as the media buying site, I talk about what people ask me to talk about and the vast majority of members shockingly have little to no money or success thus far in buying traffic, I don't see anyone else willing to do live case studies. Showing them a 50 grand IO is real helpful, that's great for impressing people, but useless for helping them actually make some money.

If you want to call me out, do it, I bet I bought more traffic in the last hour than you did all last year, I'm happy to prove I know what I teach, very few people could produce the same who own anything training related.

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Laurie Rogers 12 years ago

LMAO seriously give it a rest Rob, anybody that has to sit there and brag about how much stuff they own, how much money they make or how much traffic they've bought in the last year ... is usually how do we say that? Tooting their own horn and blowing smoke up people's asses, while sitting in their mommy's basement waiting for her to come home and cook them supper.
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Per Action Rob

12 years ago

That's me, living in the basement, can't beat the rent. You're absurd, you're over here implying I don't know media buying or do quality content and then you want to criticize me for saying let's put our money where our mouths are and see how little I know about it.

If that's bragging, guilty, great comment on the living in the basement, you're obviously operating on a way higher plane than an arrogant bragger like me. Nothing like implying someone is a fraud and then calling them a bragger when they say "ok, lets see about that"

And Steve, I said let's assume your stuff is great, you agreed regardless most people won't use it, that was the point, has nothing to do with you.

Also, if you think a subject line saying "Make a guaranteed 100k this month" is a less scumbag subject line than "Payment recieved" Thank you, because you just proved everything I said so far and that's the same thinking a lot of people here obviously agree with it.

It's totally cool to mail for youtube bots and BS software but god forbid a subject line is deceptive, let's call the feds.

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Abdi Shakur 12 years ago

you are more likely to be dumped into the spam folder than make a sale with this approach.
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Laurie Rogers

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Per Action Rob

That's me, living in the basement, can't beat the rent. You're absurd, you're over here implying I don't know media buying or do quality content and then you want to criticize me for saying let's put our money where our mouths are and see how little I know about it.

If that's bragging, guilty, great comment on the living in the basement, you're obviously operating on a way higher plain than an arrogant bragger like me. Nothing like implying someone is a fraud and then calling them a bragger when they say "ok, lets see about that"

And Steve, I said let's assume your stuff is great, you agreed regardless most people won't use it, that was the point, has nothing to do with you.

Also, if you think a subject line saying "Make a guaranteed 100k this month" is a less scumbag subject line than "Payment recieved" Thank you, because you just proved everything I said so far and that's the same thinking a lot of people here obviously agree with it.

It's totally cool to mail for youtube bots and BS software but god forbid a subject line is deceptive, let's call the feds.

I'm absurd? Almost everything you've said is beyond absurd. I'm not here for a contest, I'm here telling you what you're doing is deceptive and the FEDS will have a field day with that nonsense whether you like it or not. Either it has not or will not sink into your brain, but don't cry when it gets taken all away from you.

BTW I never implied that you actually owned a house or bought traffic, because as far as I'm concerned it's deceptive bragging, hence my basement comments. People that have a tendency to "brag" are usually full of it and don't need to justify or argue what they own or do not own in an argument which is totally irrelevant to the discussion.

STATEMENT of FACT: We're dicussing deceptive email tactics, NOT who owns how many houses! YOU brought that into the equation when it was totally irrevelant, but hey whatever makes you feel better about yourself.

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ezybux4u

12 years ago

I have long been of the assumption that anyone who uses the dubious subject lines in question on this thread are either bold or stupid, or a combination of both. It can be regarded as spammy even.

I like to test different subject lines when I do an initial blast, and use the subject line with the best click-through in subsequent mailings.

This is also a list respect issue. If you want to show your list that you think they are a pack of idiots, be sure to use PayPal Deposit Notification or such as your subject line...

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Per Action Rob

12 years ago

Well obviously a lot of people have passionate feelings on both sides, sadly I'm generally the only idiot willing to fight everyone on it for my side

Plenty of people may disagree with me and that's totally cool, but I feel my point was only proven multiple times in this thread.

Maybe you Laurie are the exception, good for you, seriously, but my points are directed at two things, Mike who started this thread and I feel is a bit hypocritical in doing so, and others who are too dumb to understand that mailing the BS I watch them mail all day long and the crap in peoples signatures who are posting in this thread giving opinions on how wrong a subject line is are either mentally ill or living in denial about their own income.

Everyone criticizes advertorial landers, I'm one of the few people who openly supports them, yet a majority of affiliate marketers have used them, failures or not, they came to the "dark side" but they won't admit it.

Advertorials and subject lines aren't the problem in the industry, it's the end products. If you think the FTC would give a **** about fake blogs if they hadn't been driving millions of consumers to scams, then you're just way off.

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Laurie Rogers

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Per Action Rob

Well obviously a lot of people have passionate feelings on both sides, sadly I'm generally the only idiot willing to fight everyone on it for my side

Plenty of people may disagree with me and that's totally cool, but I feel my point was only proven multiple times in this thread.

Maybe you Laurie are the exception, good for you, seriously, but my points are directed at two things, Mike who started this thread and I feel is a bit hypocritical in doing so, and others who are too dumb to understand that mailing the BS I watch them mail all day long and the crap in peoples signatures who are posting in this thread giving opinions on how wrong a subject line is are either mentally ill or living in denial about their own income.

Everyone criticizes advertorial landers, I'm one of the few people who openly supports them, yet a majority of affiliate marketers have used them, failures or not, they came to the "dark side" but they won't admit it.

Advertorials and subject lines aren't the problem in the industry, it's the end products. If you think the FTC would give a **** about fake blogs if they hadn't been driving millions of consumers to scams, then you're just way off.

Sorry I disagree with you there as well, if you're telling someone "you can make a million dollars in a day" in your headline, that's deceptive advertising and 99% of those people won't even get to the product, but a lot of them will report it as spam. And the FTC does care about that stuff. Yeah sure there are bigger fish to fry but if you keep thinking "it can't happen to me", you're seriously in denial. They would like nothing more than to shut us all down and send us packing and YOU are a contributer to their desire to do so.

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GarrieWilson

12 years ago

1. It may not violate FTC guidelines/CAN-Spam. It depends on how you received the email. If they are clients/buyers, you dont have to follow all the guidelines. IMHO Opting in to a free list makes them a client. Email in exchange for the "freebie" is a type of barter and transaction.

Not legal advice.

2. Is it really deceptive? You are emailing about the subject. It's just not what many/most of you are expecting. There are other subjects that people automatically think one thing but could be something entirely different.

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Per Action Rob

12 years ago

I didn't say that, some other guy said he'd rather I send that because that's ok, as if that's not deceptive and that's how most people on this forum think.

If you ask me "payment received" is way more legit than 90% of the subject lines I see everyday talking about huge fortunes being made, and easy profits.

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Per Action Rob

12 years ago

Wow, actually thanks for that, that was really cool to hear, it of course totally ****ed me because now you have this loud mouth convinced I created an account to praise myself, but seriously thanks for the kind words, can I use that as a testimonial in my new article writing millions WSO?

In all seriousness I think everyone has a right to their opinion, I only chimed in because I don't believe people have the right to judge others, especially the kind of people that have been doing the judging.

Hey do whatever you do, it doesn't affect me at all, just trying to give a different perspective to the initial post that I think a lot of people would agree with (maybe not on this forum) or maybe just in secret.

The right or wrong thing is a matter of personal perception, you can debate that all day, but there is seriously terrible advice in this thread relating to how those subject lines kill your list, this and that, and it's just not true as any true email marketer will tell you.

Thanks
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markes

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Laurie Rogers

lmao and the multiple personality syndrome begins.

This is hilarious. I'll tell you what Rob, when you go to the FTC and fight for people's rights where spam is concerned and fight for them not to have to pay to send email, then you can argue your point with me and several others over your deceptive okayness in email. And it's okay I'll talk to my media buying guy lol

Originally Posted by Per Action Rob

Wow, actually thanks for that, that was really cool to hear, it of course totally ****ed me because now you have this loud mouth convinced I created an account to praise myself, but seriously thanks for the kind words, can I use that as a testimonial in my new article writing millions WSO?

In all seriousness I think everyone has a right to their opinion, I only chimed in because I don't believe people have the right to judge others, especially the kind of people that have been doing the judging.

Hey do whatever you do, it doesn't affect me at all, just trying to give a different perspective to the initial post that I think a lot of people would agree with (maybe not on this forum) or maybe just in secret.

The right or wrong thing is a matter of personal perception, you can debate that all day, but there is seriously terrible advice in this thread relating to how those subject lines kill your list, this and that, and it's just not true as any true email marketer will tell you.

You've got full rights to it man. I won't sell it to you.

You don't even know how much the stuff you've putten out there made me money and I owe you a lot for it.

And sorry for that too heh, but yeah I don't really post on here and so now super duper Ms.Laurie figured it all out and says I'm you lol!

I wish I was.

Thanks

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