Frank Kern - Scarcity Gone Too Far? | Warrior Forum - The #1 Digital Marketing Forum & Marketplace

15 years ago

Well, logistically speaking, if he can only handle an additional 2000 members to his "continuity program" (why not just say membership site?), and those 2000 sell out in 15 minutes, is it his fault?

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OnlineMasterMind 15 years ago

Hey good point Vinny.

I guess I was looking at it from the standpoint of a physical product; like a newsletter.

But then again, I didn't read the salespage lol
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- Sean Donahoe 15 years ago
  
  I have to give Frank Kern a ton of credit for the way he has marketed this process from start to finish. I have been carefully studying the wording, frequency and structure of his product launch and it is something that is definitely redefining internet marketing.
  
  We can all take a lesson from this approach and techniques. The bottom line, Frank just made a crap load of money and 2000 people just have secured a fantastic opportunity, good luck to them and him!
  
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Brian Tayler

15 years ago

Originally Posted by vinnylingo

Well, logistically speaking, if he can only handle an additional 2000 members to his "continuity program" (why not just say membership site?), and those 2000 sell out in 15 minutes, is it his fault?

Actually it is... supply vs. demand.

Either offer it at a higher price or offer more copies.

I don't buy the "I really could end up bankrupt" cry. Anyone who pays more than $18 for a couple CDs/DVDs to a fulfillment house to copy & ship is in the wrong business to begin with.

But I don't concede to Frank's so called trial and error ignorance. He's smarter than that. This is all about scarcity and gaining hype and thus gaining more customers (maybe not now... but down the road). Remember... true business men aren't looking at THIS SALE but possible sales down the road. If you're concentrating on the next sale... your already behind.

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Floyd Fisher

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Brian Tayler

Actually it is... supply vs. demand.

Either offer it at a higher price or offer more copies.

I don't buy the "I really could end up bankrupt" cry. Anyone who pays more than $18 for a couple CDs/DVDs to a fulfillment house to copy & ship is in the wrong business to begin with.

But I don't concede to Frank's so called trial and error ignorance. He's smarter than that. This is all about scarcity and gaining hype and thus gaining more customers (maybe not now... but down the road). Remember... true business men aren't looking at THIS SALE but possible sales down the road. If you're concentrating on the next sale... your already behind.

Wrong.

Each CD costs about $5 to print up (check it out at any CD fulfillment house and see what I mean). Now, I don't know exactly how many CD's are in the Mass Control program, but from what I understand, it's quite a few (can anyone give me an exact count).

Let's just say for the record, there is 40 of 'em in there. That is $200 just to create a single mass control kit. Print up 1,000 of 'em and you're talking about siphoning $200,000 out of your pocket. Ratchet that up to 5,000, and you're talking about a cool $1 million. Can you see how this adds up?

I don't care what kind of backend you have, if you don't keep enough money in your bank account to keep the lights on until the continuity payments kick in, you're are what is called SOL.

And that is exactly what he meant by 'he could be bankrupt'.

No, I am not kissing Franks ass here, I just know the cold hard realities about life in the fast lane. Do something stupid like not make sure you have enough cash to keep things running and you'll end up in chapert 7 city faster than you can say 'FTC'.

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virtualpro

15 years ago

$5 a CD! In my country it could be 5CD for buck.

It would be a lot cheaper even included shipping.

You may want to considered outsourced to a reliable company.

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Lee

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

Wrong.

Each CD costs about $5 to print up (check it out at any CD fulfillment house and see what I mean). Now, I don't know exactly how many CD's are in the Mass Control program, but from what I understand, it's quite a few (can anyone give me an exact count).

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Mike Hill

15 years ago

Originally Posted by virtualpro

$5 a CD! In my country it could be 5CD for buck.

It would be a lot cheaper even included shipping.

You may want to considered outsourced to a reliable company.

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Lee

And what would be the quality of that CD..? Probably not very good, besides Frank doesn;t live over their... could you imagine the shipping rates...LOL

Mike Hill

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Brian Tayler

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

Wrong.

Each CD costs about $5 to print up (check it out at any CD fulfillment house and see what I mean)...

It doesn't cost me $5 a CD.

I pay between $0.50-$2.25

As an example I'll use the ever popular Kunaki used by a lot of people here. $1.75 for printing on CD/DVD case and on CD/DVD label itself. Plus copying data onto the disc.

Far cry from $5 a CD.. Oh wait... I forgot that ever expensive USPS shipping at $3.25 a CD :rolleyes:

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Popstar 15 years ago

Why would anyone think this is a conspiracy? It's a product launch pure and simple whether you characterize it as a test or not.

If it's pushed your emotional buttons in any way, then he's done his job.

Debbie
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Floyd Fisher

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Brian Tayler

It doesn't cost me $5 a CD.

I pay between $0.50-$2.25

As an example I'll use the ever popular Kunaki used by a lot of people here. $1.75 for printing on CD/DVD case and on CD/DVD label itself. Plus copying data onto the disc.

Far cry from $5 a CD.. Oh wait... I forgot that ever expensive USPS shipping at $3.25 a CD :rolleyes:

Don't forget protective packaging, insurance, and tracking as well. Wouldn't want to lose those things would we?

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Brian Tayler 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

Don't forget protective packaging, insurance, and tracking as well. Wouldn't want to lose those things would we?

Floyd,
I hope you actually read what I wrote. I don't mind having a discussion with someone with a difference of opinions... but don't be a complete ass about it.

Kunaki as stated before a price of: $1.75
Simple google search would tell you this includes:
Manufacturing / assembly
Full color CD printing
Jewel case
Full color 2-panel insert
Full color tray card
Cellophane wrapping
UPC bar code
24-Hour rush manufacturing

Shipping costs roughly $1 (to ship one CD). That includes tracking, however doesn't include insurance. Why would I pay to insure something that costs $1.75?
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Steven Carl Kelly 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

Each CD costs about $5 to print up (check it out at any CD fulfillment house and see what I mean).

I believe you're way high. I've contracted CD fulfillment services on a product I produced and front-to-back my cost for that service was less than $5.00 per disk, and that INCLUDED the shipping costs for each unit.

No, $5.00 per disk is way too high, especially if he's producing a multi-disk package which is being shipped to a single address. In fact, if you yourself were going to mail CD's to 2,000 subscribers per month, you could do it for well under $4.00 a disk -- including shipping.

As an example:
CD/DVD Fulfillment Pricing

At $297 a month, less than 30 subscribers would cover the cost to fulfill an entire monthly subscription to 2,000 subscribers.
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lindajess

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Brian Tayler

Actually it is... supply vs. demand.

Either offer it at a higher price or offer more copies.

I don't buy the "I really could end up bankrupt" cry. Anyone who pays more than $18 for a couple CDs/DVDs to a fulfillment house to copy & ship is in the wrong business to begin with.

But I don't concede to Frank's so called trial and error ignorance. He's smarter than that. This is all about scarcity and gaining hype and thus gaining more customers (maybe not now... but down the road). Remember... true business men aren't looking at THIS SALE but possible sales down the road. If you're concentrating on the next sale... your already behind.

He may be smarter than that, maybe he didn't do this on accident...maybe he did it so that people would go in and get his next product, I mean, if it was in that high of a demand, the guy knows what he's talking about...

Am I right?

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zerofill 15 years ago

Taking in more people than he or his program can handle would be the wrong thing to do. If it fills up that fast it fills up. By not taking more than he can handle he is doing the right thing not the wrong thing. If it is a program that really needs to be limited.

As long as it isn't like some places where they do that and then come back with..."Man the demand was so overwhelming we decided to allow 500 more people in" kinda deal. That I don't like as a marketing gimmick. The ones that got in feel cheated then on the scarcity tactic being a bluff.
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Mark Riddle 15 years ago

Creating a demand that exceeds supply isn't about an under estimated response it is about not understanding sowing and reaping.

Right Sizing IS a part of marketing.

Matching your offer to the market is often misunderstood by even the wisest of "guru's"

At it's foundation it may seem like, "WOW that didn't last long, it sure sold out fast, boy I missed out, I gotta get it next round (and there is always a next round).

It wasn't too long ago right here in our own forum the same problem popped up when the number of "Items at this Price" was so small that with the delays of mail systems, that it was a worthless effort to run and take the chance on the offer still being available.

It shows a disregard for not only the members of your list, it also shows the mindset of the creator having :

"COME ON IN EVERYONE'S WELCOME" sign.

Then in fine print it say:

"Entry to the public at large only permitted on days that start with the letter "R" and must be accompanied by a train of elephants a mongoose and 7 fairies that can dance the can can while whistling the national anthem of the Georgia (the country not the state) Void where prohibited, under 17 not admitted, some parts are small and should be kept away from infants swallowing hazard, your mileage may very, prices slightly higher on the west cost, afternoon matinee limited to those who are not of school age, please consult your financial adviser, some people do and will lose money, not an offer for sale of securities, objects may appear smaller, if condition lasts longer than four hours seek medical attention, frequent flier miles not available on all flights, maintenance of this vehicle not included with this warranty program, testimonials provided may be from past products and projects, no rain checks, void where prohibited by law, hearing protecting may be required, keep hands and feet in the car at all times, no warranty expressed or implied, not a lottery or game of chance, please consult your states attorney general prior to entry if you have questions, this offer has not been approved by any state board of investment nor has it been approved by the FTC, ATF, or the SEC."

Only a foolish farmer would plant thousands upon thousands of seeds in a field that can only support small number of plants.

In truth the harvest is more that just seeds, its about, seeds, and the soil.

Only when the seed and the soil match do you produce a healthy vibrant harvest.

Symbiosis is the key.

Mark
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- Andyhenry 15 years ago
  
  Why doesn't someone just ask him if you really want to know?
  
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  Jason Moffatt 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Andyhenry
  
  Why doesn't someone just ask him if you really want to know?
  
  I plan on doing just that this evening at dinner.
  
  Heck, I could squeeze out another 50 sales easily!
  
  ARgggg, stupid sellouts!
  
  Although I know Frank doesn't want to overwhelm himself with too many things and not have everything run smoothly for all members. I mean geez, he doesn't need any more money! But some of his affiliates would sure like more
  
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Scott Ames

15 years ago

In this case it is credible because he probably only has so many physical products printed up right now. I'm sure he "sold out" of the packages. Anyone else would have to wait.

When its a purely digital product or a membership site I find scarcity a bit dubious unless personal coaching is promised, which is obviously limited.

Still.. I think the benefits are huge to the marketer that uses scarcity. Its frustrating to the buyer. There was something a while ago I too wanted to buy, but was locked out the moment I first found out about it. That just seemed like a waste of my time.

I don't know what the answer is. I have a love/hate relationship with scarcity.

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OnlineMasterMind

15 years ago

Thanks for your feedback also Scott.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not questioning the use of scarcity, and I'm definitely not questioning whether or not this offer was "ethically right" or anything remotely like that...

I just wonder if he took it a little too far from a pure business standpoint. Business, as in profits.

And again, I know there are other things to consider but I think if he sold 5,000 and then closed it... I personally think it would have had the same affect but of course I could be wrong. Frank's a smart guy so I'm probably missing something here...hence the original post.

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davebo Banned 15 years ago

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- jennstall 15 years ago
  
  The monthly membership is $297 and as far as I can tell it is a strictly offline deal. There's no membership website. He's going to be sending out a newsletter and a DVD every month.
  
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Chris Lockwood

15 years ago

Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind

And again, I know there are other things to consider but I think if he sold 5,000 and then closed it... I personally think it would have had the same affect but of course I could be wrong. Frank's a smart guy so I'm probably missing something here...hence the original post.

So 5000 is the magic number that is OK to have as a limit, but 2000 is not enough?

What if the limit had been 5000 and it sold out in an hour or 2? Somebody could make the same argument as in the first post.

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Brian Tayler

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood

So 5000 is the magic number that is OK to have as a limit, but 2000 is not enough?

What if the limit had been 5000 and it sold out in an hour or 2? Somebody could make the same argument as in the first post.

Chris,
What benefit is there in selling out so fast at any quantity? Was it truly an accident or a well planned strategy? Why didn't he generate 10,000 copies (or even better... generate a small number then put in an order to a fulfillment house after he gets a concrete number)? If profit was of interest... why not raise the price?

There is always more than just what you see on the surface... the only question is how much more?

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Scott Ames

15 years ago

I think ( correct me if I'm wrong ) that mostly what we want to know is: ( at least I do )

How does one use scarcity at the most optimum level?

If I had an offer and randomly picked 250 as the limit, how do I know that I could not have sold double or triple that? If I picked 2,500 as the limit, how do I know that I would ever reach that limit? It could kill the scarcity factor.

Of course some scarcity is obviously set by conditions. Perhaps you only can deal with x number of users, perhaps you have a physical limit on something, etc.

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Brian Tayler

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Scott Ames

I think ( correct me if I'm wrong ) that mostly what we want to know is: ( at least I do )

How does one use scarcity at the most optimum level?

If I had an offer and randomly picked 250 as the limit, how do I know that I could not have sold double or triple that? If I picked 2,500 as the limit, how do I know that I would ever reach that limit? It could kill the scarcity factor.

Of course some scarcity is obviously set by conditions. Perhaps you only can deal with x number of users, perhaps you have a physical limit on something, etc.

Scott,
It's not a guessing game I'll tell you that. I can't speak for Frank Kern but I will speak for business supply/demand in general. It is equated depending on factors (like the number of subscribers, market, history of buying trends, etc.) Not all of it do I even fully understand... but it was a good portion of my micro-economics class (or was it macro? lol)

For all I know Frank picked his favorite number though... :rolleyes:

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Scott Ames

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Brian Tayler

Scott,
It's not a guessing game I'll tell you that. I can't speak for Frank Kern but I will speak for business supply/demand in general. It is equated depending on factors (like the number of subscribers, market, history of buying trends, etc.) Not all of it do I even fully understand... but it was a good portion of my micro-economics class (or was it macro? lol)

For all I know Frank picked his favorite number though... :rolleyes:

That would make a good report or WSO. I never took micro or macro economics. If there is a calculation that could be used I"m sure others like myself would love to see it.

Perhaps its somwhere in my brain (google) .

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Brian Tayler

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Scott Ames

That would make a good report or WSO. I never took micro or macro economics. If there is a calculation that could be used I"m sure others like myself would love to see it.

Perhaps its somwhere in my brain (google) .

Can I put my micro/macro economics books up as a WSO? LOL.. I haven't looked at them in years. I probably should though.

I can say economics and statistics go hand in hand. Statistics may be guessing... but it's highly calculated guessing.

Lots of formulas can lead to highly educated decisions in different markets. I can tell you that it is often used in marketing as well... especially in larger markets.

However... like I said... I have no idea what Frank did and I doubt it's as complicated as my micro/macro economics classes were (and it probably doesn't NEED to be that complicated... jeesh).

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vinnylingo

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Brian Tayler

Can I put my micro/macro economics books up as a WSO? LOL.. I haven't looked at them in years. I probably should though.

I can say economics and statistics go hand in hand. Statistics may be guessing... but it's highly calculated guessing.

Lots of formulas can lead to highly educated decisions in different markets. I can tell you that it is often used in marketing as well... especially in larger markets.

However... like I said... I have no idea what Frank did and I doubt it's as complicated as my micro/macro economics classes were (and it probably doesn't NEED to be that complicated... jeesh).

Look. I like what you're trying to do with tying this into basic economics of supply and demand. But your example only works for hard goods, not services. It seems he was running this promo to get more members to his continuity program. If it was a matter of selling hard goods, I could see where you are coming from, but when it comes to services, wouldn't you think it comes down to a matter of what number of people he could provide quality service to?

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Jeremy Wilson 15 years ago

At it's foundation it may seem like, "WOW that didn't last long, it sure sold out fast, boy I missed out, I gotta get it next round (and there is always a next round).

I think this sums it up perfectly.

This probably has very little if anything to do with only being able to handle a certain amount of sales or new members

It is about crating an untangible value to his stuff. The feeling that you are missing out on something makes you want it even more.

Everything he has released (that I can think of) for the past 2-3 years has had a limit on the number sold. Whether it be a seminar, course or membership site...and every time he sells out.

The marketplace knows this.

People who missed out on one thing will make sure they don't miss out next time. I know because I missed out on one of his products and then made darn sure I got his Mass Control course when it was release.

By creating a pent up demand he can release a product in one huge burst, rake in bucketloads of cash (2000 members x $297/month = $594,000/month...how much more money do you need?!!) and then he is done. No ongoing marketing, no dealing with new customers on an ongoing basis.

It's all controlled and orchestrated. Then when he is ready to release another produt he just gets the marketing machine rolling for 1-2 weeks, launch, sellout, collect payment.

Rinse and repeat.
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- Jeremy Wilson 15 years ago
  
  Cindy, you beat me to it :-)
  
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  peteradt 15 years ago
  
  Well everyone here has an excellent point of contention as to why Frank did what he did. As one of his students, and closely watching everything that he does, I can tell you this.
  
  Frank said weeks ago in an email and in the Mass Control (TM) members area that he was going to be performing a "marketing test" and conduct an experiement to see what the results were.
  
  He also said it would be a very limited "test", an almost "mico launch" if you will to let the market tell him what it wanted.
  
  As marketers, part of everything we're doing is some sort of test to see what end results we can achieve, as far as conversions, profits, etc
  
  Now looking at the results its got nothing to really do with the economics.
  
  Frank warned everyone upfront what he was doing, how he was doing it, and he was totally upfront about the whole entire "test"
  
  So what were the results of his "test"
  
  His product sold out in 20 minutes or so with 2000 orders.
  
  I'm sure he got more orders than that, as I even probably got double billed when the server kept crashing and I had to send in an email to make sure my card was only charged once.
  
  The last message I got was something along the lines of... "This product is sold out, I'm not sure how you found this page, but your order went through and there will be a shipping delay of one week"
  
  So bottom line, the "test" was extremely successful from that stand point, and only Frank knows basically how much money he'll end up making with the multiple backend offers he probably already has in place during and after the 30 day trial period, lol
  
  Study one of the true masters and watch some fantastic marketing taking place which will surely change the way the other "gurus" do their marketing as well.
  
  Watch the shift in marketing from this point onwards from the other big boys and girls ;-)
  
  To everyone's continued online success
  
  Peter
  
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  John Ritz 15 years ago
  
  Frank's "test" was really a bet with JMo to see how many whiners he could get to come out of the woodwork.
  
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Chris Lockwood

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Brian Tayler

Chris,
What benefit is there is selling out so fast at any quantity? Was it truly an accident or a well planned strategy? Why didn't he generate 10,000 copies (or even better... generate a small number then put in an order to a fulfillment house after he gets a concrete number)? If profit was of interest... why not raise the price?

The benefit to selling out fast is that it continues his string of selling things out fast.

I don't know how he came up with the limit of 2000.

My point was he announced a limit and it sold out fast, so what's the problem? If I wanted to order and didn't get in fast enough, that would be my fault.

It's like a concert selling out- there is a fixed limit on the number of tickets, yet when Miley Cyrus sells out in 5 minutes, people don't seem to get upset at her.

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OnlineMasterMind

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood

The benefit to selling out fast is that it continues his string of selling things out fast.

I don't know how he came up with the limit of 2000.

My point was he announced a limit and it sold out fast, so what's the problem? If I wanted to order and didn't get in fast enough, that would be my fault.

It's like a concert selling out- there is a fixed limit on the number of tickets, yet when Miley Cyrus sells out in 5 minutes, people don't seem to get upset at her.

Chris,

I'm not upset whatsoever lol

And mizzcindy... I really don't "regret" missing the offer...

But I do hear what you guys are saying. Valid points. I just couldn't help wondering why he wouldn't cash in on more of the equity he's built up throughout this launch and I just thought he might have been able to do so without diluting the "frenzy like" atmosphere....

P.S. Jason, you're ustream was H-I-L-A-R-I-O-U-S. I don't think I've laughed that hard in a while!

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Joel O

15 years ago

What I don't get is that he knew that he woud receive A LOT of traffic to the site and therefore A LOT of members.

Any smart person (who I assume Frank is) would know that with the top markers who were promoting, and with a small limit of copies, that it WOULD sell out VERY very quickly.

Am I the only one put off by this?
At least give people 24hours

I understand the scarcity tactic, whether intential or not. But like the title of this thread says... did it go too far?

Either limit the number of marketers who will promote it, or raise the number of available copies. I, along with many others, don't sit and wait for the exact time of launch to buy because of these scarcity tactics.

Joel

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DonDavis

15 years ago

Watch, study and take all the notes you wish. But I highly doubt anybody on this forum could even come close to pulling off what Frank continues to do time after time. What he does will not have the same effect for the rest of us because he is FRANK.

The dude is just cool. People buy from those they like.

It reminds me of the old Jordan commercials. "I wanna be like Mike (Frank)".
So if we buy enough of Frank's shoes and jerseys we can be just like him right?

I really don't see any mastermind marketing here. The information in the videos was very basic stuff, but it was from Frank dammit so it must have been something special.

I think people try to read way to much into what he does. It works for him because of how he comes across in his marketing and I really think it is as simple as that. He can't teach you how to accomplish that. You either have it or you don't.

So buy his stuff and soak it up. You still are not going to be a Frank Kern.

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Bev Clement

15 years ago

I missed the whole thing being on the wrong side of the pond. The launch was like 3am my time.

I haven't seen the videos so no idea what Frank is selling, but I do know that some of you are missing something Frank did.

When Frank did his mass control, he had us sign up to see the videos. That is when I went onto Frank's list.

This last week has been madness, so no time to read emails and other things.

But I do know that Frank has a lot of people like me on his list.

I got up this morning to find a pile of emails in my inbox. One was from Frank, about the launch, and how as a person on his list, I could get in and buy an hour before the launch.

Think about that for a moment, Frank has a list of how many, many of whom are rabid buyers and given that as a special deal for them they could get in an hour early.

I'm surprised the product launched to the public as I would have thought it would have sold out just to his list.

What I don't understand is how the free offer sold out. What was the free offer and what was the paid offer?

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Chris Lockwood 15 years ago

Bev, it was a free package of several DVDs and other stuff. There was a charge of about $18 for shipping and a limit of 2000 copies- that's why we're using the term "sold out".

There was no upsell or other offer, but the point of this is to get people into his $297/month continuity program, which he was very upfront about.

The 2000 limit may just be to see how many of us stay in the program so he can tell if this type of offer is worth doing for him.
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- Bev Clement 15 years ago
  
  Chris thanks for that. I thought it was free DVD's and paying for shipping, but with so many comments about the membership subscription I thought I had missed something.
  
  This is why comments made out of context are not helpful in these launches.
  
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Mike Hill

15 years ago

All I can say people is "It's all in the marketing system".... I'm actually quite surprised by how many don't "get it" and are looking at this launch from the outside looking in...

Think outside the box for a second...

Mike Hill

PS. Personally, I'd love to have Frank's problem of being sold out that quick.! ;-)

PPS. Not to mention, he did say this was a "TEST"... A smart marketer (Frank) would do a limited release to see the "stick" rate and crunch some numbers before a mass roll-out... Hello!

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Mike Hill

15 years ago

Originally Posted by John_Reese

I know this may come as a 'shocker'...

But Frank was just doing exactly what he said he was doing. He was running a TEST. The reason why he didn't pay a ton to print up 10,000+ of those packages is because this exact offer for him is UNPROVEN. It's very risky. (Especially with the "you don't even have to send it back" guarantee.)

It's very possible that Frank could end up losing money on this whole thing. And if he had offered it to more people the losses could really add up. So I think he did the smart thing and offered it to a decent size to give it a test. I'm sure if the stick rate makes it profitable then he'll do it again with a much higher limit.

But again, this is another one of those marketing events where people are looking for things that don't even exist. Sometimes it's not that complicated. As I said, in this case, it's simply a test. There wasn't some calculated evil scheme to quickly throw up a "SOLD OUT" sign so it would generate more money for some "Stage II" sneaky plan that's being cooked up. He did a great job on the marketing, created a huge buzz and demand, and tons of people took him up on the great offer quickly. That's the ONLY reason it had that result.

-John Reese

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

.... PPS. Not to mention, he did say this was a "TEST"... A smart marketer (Frank) would do a limited release to see the "stick" rate and crunch some numbers before a mass roll-out... Hello!

Hmm... that's pretty much what I said earlier and I totally agree with John...

Mike Hill ;-)

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Lance K

15 years ago

Originally Posted by DonDavis

I really don't see any mastermind marketing here. The information in the videos was very basic stuff, but it was from Frank dammit so it must have been something special.

Even if it was basic information, packaging/delivery makes a huge difference. It's all about what resonates with people. That's why it's so important to get laser focused on your ideal prospect. And you're not even giving any credit to the implied/borrowed credibility Frank has from all the high profile marketers endorsing him. With lots of affiliates with big lists, finding 2,000 that fit his ideal target prospect profile is much easier. And they're being introduced to Frank by someone they trust.

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Lance K 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Joel O

I, along with many others, don't sit and wait for the exact time of launch to buy because of these scarcity tactics.

Then you aren't the ones that Frank would prefer to have in on the deal anyway. The ones who do sit around and wait to jump on at launch time are the ones more likely to stay with the program. They're the ones who are most pre sold on the value of the program. So they'll likely have a higher lifetime customer value.
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MizzCindy

15 years ago

Well, consider, for a moment, the fact that you do indeed regret missing the offer. That means Frank Kern achieved his goal. He used scarcity to not only pique your interest, but also create a certain anxiety that you missed the boat.

There are a number of folks who will be so swept up in the hype surrounding Frank's product (because he's used several effective marketing methods to make sure of this) and then so disappointed and anxious about missing the boat, that they'll make darn good and sure to be on time and at the right place when Frank says to be there.

In essence, he just created customer loyalty. By customers being hyper-responsive the next time, Frank gets more action for less effort.

Pretty brilliant stuff!

Cindy

Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind

This post is not intended to bash Kern or question the integrity of tactics or anything like that...

None of that.

I sincerely value learning from anyone who is as passionate about marketing as Frank is and I've definitely learned a lot...

But I seriously don't understand this way of doing business. I mean, the order page was up for like 15 minutes????

Isn't the goal of business to maximize profits?

Sure, maybe you want to brand your business a certain way that adds more perceived value to it...

But would leaving the order page up for a day really detract from that?

For example, I'm someone who isn't gonna sit around and go to the site exactly at a certain time desperately waiting to buy something. I understand that's who he's targeting and that's wonderful. It's very smart actually. But I also think that myself along with many others would still be good prospects.

I like Frank, saw some of his videos, and would have been interested to see what he had to offer. I got back from a meeting with a local client...go to check out the site and I see it's sold out?

It almost seems like putting a sold out page on your site as fast as humanly possible is the cool thing to do nowadays regardless of whether or not it's the most objective business decision.

I dunno... maybe I'm just totally missing something here...

I just don't get it b/c personally this doesn't make me desire what he was selling any more than if it was only available for a day...

Do you agree with his strategy? Are there some benefits that I'm missing?

P.S. The only possible explanation I could think of would be that he wanted to make sure that the offer would be profitable... But if that was the case, wouldn't it make sense to just raise the S&H to cover the cost of the products, while putting himself in a no lose situation. I don't think that would have affected the response to the offer.

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bizlady08

15 years ago

Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind

This post is not intended to bash Kern or question the integrity of tactics or anything like that...

None of that.

I sincerely value learning from anyone who is as passionate about marketing as Frank is and I've definitely learned a lot...

But I seriously don't understand this way of doing business. I mean, the order page was up for like 15 minutes????

Isn't the goal of business to maximize profits?

Sure, maybe you want to brand your business a certain way that adds more perceived value to it...

But would leaving the order page up for a day really detract from that?

For example, I'm someone who isn't gonna sit around and go to the site exactly at a certain time desperately waiting to buy something. I understand that's who he's targeting and that's wonderful. It's very smart actually. But I also think that myself along with many others would still be good prospects.

I like Frank, saw some of his videos, and would have been interested to see what he had to offer. I got back from a meeting with a local client...go to check out the site and I see it's sold out?

It almost seems like putting a sold out page on your site as fast as humanly possible is the cool thing to do nowadays regardless of whether or not it's the most objective business decision.

I dunno... maybe I'm just totally missing something here...

I just don't get it b/c personally this doesn't make me desire what he was selling any more than if it was only available for a day...

Do you agree with his strategy? Are there some benefits that I'm missing?

P.S. The only possible explanation I could think of would be that he wanted to make sure that the offer would be profitable... But if that was the case, wouldn't it make sense to just raise the S&H to cover the cost of the products, while putting himself in a no lose situation. I don't think that would have affected the response to the offer.

I haven't read this entire thread; probably someone's already answered: Kern was test marketing a product that won't be rolled out until the fall. He was giving it away, in which case 15 minutes sounds about right since he promoted the time (unfortunately, I had an appointment and by the time I got home, it was long gone) and announced it was going to be a limited supply. Actually, I think it's pretty good strategy, 'cause we're talking about it right now and he'll be able to keep the buzz going until rollout. I bet it sells well when the time comes.

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Sirius Lin

15 years ago

Like Bev, I am on the other side of the planet. It would have been 3.00am my time when the launch occured, so although I found the videos very useful, I just couldn't make myself wake up at that hour to get in on it. Apparently, it wouldn't have been any good either - they were pretty much sold out within record time!

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nathanj

15 years ago

Think if all those 2000 stay on for the 12 month period...

That is $300 x 2000 = $600,000

12 months x $600,000 = a $7.2 million dollar income stream.

Just say half stay on for 12 months... that is still a $3.1 million dollar income stream.

Fantastic use of scarcity... although I bet he wouldn't of wanted to take that payment button down... that is like saying NO to earning more money. lol

Nathan

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Mark McClure 15 years ago

Reminds me of those Saturday night clubs where they would pay peeps to queue round the block. Lots of clubbers who can't get in get very curious very fast.
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SeanIM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Nathan J. Hockley

Think if all those 2000 stay on for the 12 month period...

That is $300 x 2000 = $600,000

12 months x $600,000 = a $7.2 million dollar income stream.

Just say half stay on for 12 months... that is still a $3.1 million dollar income stream.

Fantastic use of scarcity... although I bet he wouldn't of wanted to take that payment button down... that is like saying NO to earning more money. lol

Nathan

That'll fund a lot of k*sh, dinners in the gaslamp district & more marketing schtuff.

:thumbsup

I'm wicked happy for him and am sure that all of the new members will *really* benefit from the knowledge he's going to drop on them. Again I'd feel like a chode for jumping on the bandwagon of the "he rocks" crowds...but in this case it's ok...his original MC product material was outstanding.

-S

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Popstar

15 years ago

A lot of the Internet "gurus" use that type of scarcity tactic--Rich Schefren, Eben Pagan, etc.

If Frank gave you 24 hours to order, why would anyone rush to order his product? You'd saunter by whenever you felt like it and where's the publicity in that?

He already told you in the videos what he was doing--he was whipping everyone into a "heightened state." By only having 2000 copies available and by giving his list first crack a half-hour early (which left fewer copies available for the official launch), he made sure everyone who was interested would be sitting at their computers hitting the refresh key and probably ordering without sitting through the sales video (which cut to the order page automatically about halfway through, at least for me).

That makes for a fast sellout and a lot of hype that increases the perceived value of his products. It also gives his product and his buyers that feeling of exclusivity.

Not to mention he's training everyone who's interested to drop everything and be there at the moment he launches.

For the record, even though I had ample time to buy, I let this one go by. I guess I have guru fatigue.

But if you follow enough of these big launches, they all start to have a sameness about them. Frank didn't do anything radically different from what I've seen with other launches.

It didn't look like a test to me; it looked like a regular launch where he was leaving his options open to come back to the market later and whip everyone into a frenzy again over the same thing.

Debbie

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ExRat

15 years ago

Hi,

If you saw any of the videos this week, did you ask yourself where the content came from?

It came from doing similar launches, examining the results and finding angles that could be 're-framed' and 're-named' (EG rubber necking).

Therefore he is cleverly taking classic, well-worn tactics and finding little parts of them that can be focussed on and re-branded in order to create the content for the next launch.

There is nothing wrong with this - in fact there's everything right with it. In a saturated market where nothing is really new and everyone is scrambling for a new angle on old stuff and ways to re-work them as new in order to brand themselves as an innovator - he is demonstrating how to do it successfully, and with style to boot.

Each launch provides the seeds for the next launch - but the key is in how many different ways -

1) the ideas

2) the buzz

3) the lead capturing

Have you ever seen someone waltz into a market and completely dominate to the point where the competition doesn't really exist anymore? You have now. The (big) competition now have a problem on their hands because he is controlling all the market buzz, and most of them know that it's pointless trying to compete with him in the 'coolness' stakes because they don't have a chance.

He's dominating the market at the 'noob-ish' end and the only gap he has left is at the higher end, where there is more money but it's not as easy to get from the cynical hardened 'vets'.

I'm not a kern groupie, I don't have his products, but I'm definitely an interested observer.

Personally, I suspect that the reasons for the scarcity will be revealed in a video in the not too distant future and angles will be found (from observing the results) that will be cleverly worked so that this tactic -

a) has a new (cool) name

b) will be presented as though it was all part of an elaborate and innovative plan

...and things will unravel in such a way that whatever consequences occur from this scarcity will fit into a plan that will be revealed as part of the next product.

Of course his previous success puts him in a position where he can do this stuff on a huge scale effectively. But -

1) he got himself in that position in the first place

2) unlike so many others, he knows how to handle that success and not let it go to his head. He remains humble (in public), projects an image of being someone 'just like you' and manages to gets things right where others make huge errors.

The surf dude thing is great for PR and he carries it off masterfully but there is no doubt (in my mind) about the determination and excellence that lies behind the facade.

Some people mentioned above that he could have made 'more money' by not using this scarcity tactic. This is precisely where the others go wrong. They try and bleed every launch dry and end up making themselves look greedy/desperate. He is hanging on to his ego and looking at the long term benefits.

Which looks better, when it is revealed at a later date -

a) I took them for every penny I could as soon as I possibly could

or

b) There's no panic. My buzz-wagon continues to gather momentum, it's now running on it's own steam (a previously laid out tactic - getting others to build and maintain the buzz) and I'm also maintaining goodwill.

Option a) is tired and has been done to death. Option b) is happening right here.

Just my opinions based on my observations.

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JayXtreme

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi,

If you saw any of the videos this week, did you ask yourself where the content came from?

It came from doing similar launches, examining the results and finding angles that could be 're-framed' and 're-named' (EG rubber necking).

Therefore he is cleverly taking classic, well-worn tactics and finding little parts of them that can be focussed on and re-branded in order to create the content for the next launch.

There is nothing wrong with this - in fact there's everything right with it. In a saturated market where nothing is really new and everyone is scrambling for a new angle on old stuff and ways to re-work them as new in order to brand themselves as an innovator - he is demonstrating how to do it successfully, and with style to boot.

Each launch provides the seeds for the next launch - but the key is in how many different ways -

1) the ideas

2) the buzz

3) the lead capturing

Have you ever seen someone waltz into a market and completely dominate to the point where the competition doesn't really exist anymore? You have now. The (big) competition now have a problem on their hands because he is controlling all the market buzz, and most of them know that it's pointless trying to compete with him in the 'coolness' stakes because they don't have a chance.

He's dominating the market at the 'noob-ish' end and the only gap he has left is at the higher end, where there is more money but it's not as easy to get from the cynical hardened 'vets'.

I'm not a kern groupie, I don't have his products, but I'm definitely an interested observer.

Personally, I suspect that the reasons for the scarcity will be revealed in a video in the not too distant future and angles will be found (from observing the results) that will be cleverly worked so that this tactic -

a) has a new (cool) name

b) will be presented as though it was all part of an elaborate and innovative plan

...and things will unravel in such a way that whatever consequences occur from this scarcity will fit into a plan that will be revealed as part of the next product.

Of course his previous success puts him in a position where he can do this stuff on a huge scale effectively. But -

1) he got himself in that position in the first place

2) unlike so many others, he knows how to handle that success and not let it go to his head. He remains humble (in public), projects an image of being someone 'just like you' and manages to gets things right where others make huge errors.

The surf dude thing is great for PR and he carries it off masterfully but there is no doubt (in my mind) about the determination and excellence that lies behind the facade.

Some people mentioned above that he could have made 'more money' by not using this scarcity tactic. This is precisely where the others go wrong. They try and bleed every launch dry and end up making themselves look greedy/desperate. He is hanging on to his ego and looking at the long term benefits.

Which looks better, when it is revealed at a later date -

a) I took them for every penny I could as soon as I possibly could

or

b) There's no panic. My buzz-wagon continues to gather momentum, it's now running on it's own steam (a previously laid out tactic - getting others to build and maintain the buzz) and I'm also maintaining goodwill.

Option a) is tired and has been done to death. Option b) is happening right here.

Just my opinions based on my observations.

^^^^ Roger's my GURU!!!

Great perspective on things as usual Roger... Frank is doing things in style, not hard hitting and money grabbing... just laying things out really well(in public).

Jay

p.s. If you would like ot guest post on my blog.. feel free to shoot me a PM and we can connect maybe?.... peace dude

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John_Reese

15 years ago

I know this may come as a 'shocker'...

But Frank was just doing exactly what he said he was doing. He was running a TEST. The reason why he didn't pay a ton to print up 10,000+ of those packages is because this exact offer for him is UNPROVEN. It's very risky. (Especially with the "you don't even have to send it back" guarantee.)

It's very possible that Frank could end up losing money on this whole thing. And if he had offered it to more people the losses could really add up. So I think he did the smart thing and offered it to a decent size to give it a test. I'm sure if the stick rate makes it profitable then he'll do it again with a much higher limit.

But again, this is another one of those marketing events where people are looking for things that don't even exist. Sometimes it's not that complicated. As I said, in this case, it's simply a test. There wasn't some calculated evil scheme to quickly throw up a "SOLD OUT" sign so it would generate more money for some "Stage II" sneaky plan that's being cooked up. He did a great job on the marketing, created a huge buzz and demand, and tons of people took him up on the great offer quickly. That's the ONLY reason it had that result.

-John Reese

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Lance K

15 years ago

Originally Posted by John_Reese

It's very possible that Frank could end up losing money on this whole thing. And if he had offered it to more people the losses could really add up. So I think he did the smart thing and offered it to a decent size to give it a test. I'm sure if the stick rate makes it profitable then he'll do it again with a much higher limit.

John, I agree that it was smart to test it. But I really don't think there's much possibility of Frank losing money on this test. And the reason I believe that is due to the rule of reciprocity. If the package delivers that $1997 of value, people will feel guilty keeping it for only the $18 s/h charge. Therefore, a good number of those people would be likely to stick with the $297/month program for at least a month or 2. At which point Frank will be in the black. I would guess that Frank believes this as well, but without knowing for sure he wanted to test it out on a limited basis. Thoughts?

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Noah Fleming 15 years ago

Cialdini said that if you break the scarcity factor even ONE time you're headed for disaster.

By saying there is X amount of something and selling more, you are taking a huge risk of kissing all influence and persuasion goodbye including any built up reciprocity.

That's why the order page was up for exactly 15 minutes I imagine.
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John_Reese

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Lance K

John, I agree that it was smart to test it. But I really don't think there's much possibility of Frank losing money on this test. And the reason I believe that is due to the rule of reciprocity. If the package delivers that $1997 of value, people will feel guilty keeping it for only the $18 s/h charge. Therefore, a good number of those people would be likely to stick with the $297/month program for at least a month or 2. At which point Frank will be in the black. I would guess that Frank believes this as well, but without knowing for sure he wanted to test it out on a limited basis. Thoughts?

Lance it's still a numbers game and there is still a lot of risk involved. We're talking about the capital outlay of $50,000+ (I don't know his exact costs). $297/month is no $29.95/month continuity program that some people 'might' forget to cancel or say they'll "do it later" etc. and end up paying for a few months. $300 is a substantial amount of money. So it's inevitable based on that alone that the stick rate will be much lower than other programs with cheaper prices. Add to that the fact that they don't have to return the free trial materials in order to cancel, and you've got the makings for a very unpredictable campaign.

Obviously, Frank is one of my closest friends and I hope his business does really well with the offer. But Frank will be the first to admit that this offer is a crapshoot at this point and he's anxious to see how it pans out; hence the reason he's just testing it.

But rest assured, if it becomes profitable I'm sure Frank will do a large relaunch campaign for the offer to maximize the sales from it -- or at least that's what *I* predict he'll do. Ultimately, it's up to him.

-John Reese

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Lance K

15 years ago

Originally Posted by John_Reese

Lance it's still a numbers game and there is still a lot of risk involved. We're talking about the capital outlay of $50,000+ (I don't know his exact costs). $297/month is no $29.95/month continuity program that some people 'might' forget to cancel or say they'll "do it later" etc. and end up paying for a few months. $300 is a substantial amount of money. So it's inevitable based on that alone that the stick rate will be much lower than other programs with cheaper prices. Add to that the fact that they don't have to return the free trial materials in order to cancel, and you've got the makings for a very unpredictable campaign.

Obviously, Frank is one of my closest friends and I hope his business does really well with the offer. But Frank will be the first to admit that this offer is a crapshoot at this point and he's anxious to see how it pans out; hence the reason he's just testing it.

But rest assured, if it becomes profitable I'm sure Frank will do a large relaunch campaign for the offer to maximize the sales from it -- or at least that's what *I* predict he'll do. Ultimately, it's up to him.

-John Reese

John, thanks for the reply. That makes sense. Test small, roll out big. *I* still believe this test will be a winner. At the very least, break even with a lot of valuable data obtained that could be the seedlings of something huge in the future.

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virtualpro

15 years ago

Hi all,

Kudos! Things get shaped when I read this post, this post alone worth a lot money.

I was very new to IM, quite clueless about it, but was stumbled Frank website in July and found it sold out. I'm hooked and monitor his email closely since then. If you 'get it' you may already understand that 15 minutes sold out is because he did collected 'I'm in' people for months, and he know exactly how many people by counting his program subscriber list. He just wait until the number is right and launched it, so it is a sure fire. More scarcity means he's getting more precised target customer, maybe is what he is testing. He may even get as high as 90% converted using this technique! So it is quite sure that he won't lose in anyway if the assumption is right. No magic here, he will continue doing it just change the system name.

If you monitored what he did carefully with no bias, you will find the pattern and system behind it as ExRat see. Just be careful to monitor the marketing pattern, not just what he is doing. Not sure I'm right since I'm new, but just a view point from a designer. He is testing the most efficient way to make money, thus have long life span. Not just another making money method.

Not sure it is just in my dream or not, but I already feel these Frank techniques will make SO MUCH $$$, just apply it to offline marketing in the business I'm doing. Just simple stupid combination of Scarcity-time-giveaway techniques will convert so much sales in any business.

Anyway, I'm one who order his giveaway. And ya know, I ordered it about 10 minutes before the launch time. Eventhough, not sure I'll buy his course or not since I've already learned a lot from him even DVD didn't shipped yet! I feel 'get it' already.

I already feel the contents in DVD is less important than what he have show me. I means I already have too much to-do list already at the moment.

So if anyone interested the couse, I may give my seat

It's nice to be part of this community.

Lee.

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi,

If you saw any of the videos this week, did you ask yourself where the content came from?

It came from doing similar launches, examining the results and finding angles that could be 're-framed' and 're-named' (EG rubber necking).

Therefore he is cleverly taking classic, well-worn tactics and finding little parts of them that can be focussed on and re-branded in order to create the content for the next launch.

There is nothing wrong with this - in fact there's everything right with it. In a saturated market where nothing is really new and everyone is scrambling for a new angle on old stuff and ways to re-work them as new in order to brand themselves as an innovator - he is demonstrating how to do it successfully, and with style to boot.

Each launch provides the seeds for the next launch - but the key is in how many different ways -

1) the ideas

2) the buzz

3) the lead capturing

Have you ever seen someone waltz into a market and completely dominate to the point where the competition doesn't really exist anymore? You have now. The (big) competition now have a problem on their hands because he is controlling all the market buzz, and most of them know that it's pointless trying to compete with him in the 'coolness' stakes because they don't have a chance.

He's dominating the market at the 'noob-ish' end and the only gap he has left is at the higher end, where there is more money but it's not as easy to get from the cynical hardened 'vets'.

I'm not a kern groupie, I don't have his products, but I'm definitely an interested observer.

Personally, I suspect that the reasons for the scarcity will be revealed in a video in the not too distant future and angles will be found (from observing the results) that will be cleverly worked so that this tactic -

a) has a new (cool) name

b) will be presented as though it was all part of an elaborate and innovative plan

...and things will unravel in such a way that whatever consequences occur from this scarcity will fit into a plan that will be revealed as part of the next product.

Of course his previous success puts him in a position where he can do this stuff on a huge scale effectively. But -

1) he got himself in that position in the first place

2) unlike so many others, he knows how to handle that success and not let it go to his head. He remains humble (in public), projects an image of being someone 'just like you' and manages to gets things right where others make huge errors.

The surf dude thing is great for PR and he carries it off masterfully but there is no doubt (in my mind) about the determination and excellence that lies behind the facade.

Some people mentioned above that he could have made 'more money' by not using this scarcity tactic. This is precisely where the others go wrong. They try and bleed every launch dry and end up making themselves look greedy/desperate. He is hanging on to his ego and looking at the long term benefits.

Which looks better, when it is revealed at a later date -

a) I took them for every penny I could as soon as I possibly could

or

b) There's no panic. My buzz-wagon continues to gather momentum, it's now running on it's own steam (a previously laid out tactic - getting others to build and maintain the buzz) and I'm also maintaining goodwill.

Option a) is tired and has been done to death. Option b) is happening right here.

Just my opinions based on my observations.

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Daniel E Taylor

15 years ago

LOLL @ this thread.

Wake the hell up.

Frank kern is a man, who has a product, and is selling it.

He can sell/giveaway however many units he damn well pleases.

If he wanted to give away 10 copies, as long as he clearly states that,
and keeps his word thats fine.

It sounds more like to me people are bitching because THEY were just
too damn slow.

Oh well, grow up and move on.

What if he would have offered 2001 copies and you got in?
Would you still be bitching about the scarcity tactic? Of course not
you wouldn't give a shit because you would have got you're copy
and been happy.

The point of this thread isn't to discuss "a marketing tactic" it's
so the OP can bitch because he felt he deserved this free offer
for whatever reason, and since he was to slow, it's time to bitch
and question tactics.

But if you would have got the offer you wouldn't have created
this stupid thread. Stop acting like you're defending marketing
and really put it out there that you're just mad you didn't get a copy.

I mean come on.

Who the hell doesn't use scarcity? come back to reality.

Didn't sony do that with the ps3? So did xbox360. They had
people waiting in lines to get it, and most of which didn't make
it in time.

This is stuff I learned in my 12th grade economics class.

It's funny because many of you who "question" this method
are the same ones who think they are "marketers".

Get your head out of your ass and open your eyes. These
methods are being used offline and online everyday, and have
been forever, and will continue.

It's nothing new.

The only thing new is your limited marketing knowledge and it's
easy to tell because any real marketer can look at this and know
exactly whats going on.

I thought this was a marketing forum...

Daniel

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OnlineMasterMind

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel E Taylor

LOLL @ this thread.

Wake the hell up.

Frank kern is a man, who has a product, and is selling it.

He can sell/giveaway however many units he damn well pleases.

If he wanted to give away 10 copies, as long as he clearly states that,
and keeps his word thats fine.

It sounds more like to me people are bitching because THEY were just
too damn slow.

Oh well, grow up and move on.

What if he would have offered 2001 copies and you got in?
Would you still be bitching about the scarcity tactic? Of course not
you wouldn't give a shit because you would have got you're copy
and been happy.

The point of this thread isn't to discuss "a marketing tactic" it's
so the OP can bitch because he felt he deserved this free offer
for whatever reason, and since he was to slow, it's time to bitch
and question tactics.

But if you would have got the offer you wouldn't have created
this stupid thread. Stop acting like you're defending marketing
and really put it out there that you're just mad you didn't get a copy.

I mean come on.

Who the hell doesn't use scarcity? come back to reality.

Didn't sony do that with the ps3? So did xbox360. They had
people waiting in lines to get it, and most of which didn't make
it in time.

This is stuff I learned in my 12th grade economics class.

It's funny because many of you who "question" this method
are the same ones who think they are "marketers".

Get your head out of your ass and open your eyes. These
methods are being used offline and online everyday, and have
been forever, and will continue.

It's nothing new.

The only thing new is your limited marketing knowledge and it's
easy to tell because any real marketer can look at this and know
exactly whats going on.

I thought this was a marketing forum...

Daniel

Oh you freakin kidding me?

I am a MARKETER...

I'm upset I did not "get in"..... HA!

You obviously haven't got a clue what you're talking about...

I'm doing the EXACT OPPOSITE of complaining; I'm questioning whether he took it far enough.... As in maximizing his profits while still keeping the scarcity intacted.

Is that not appropriate for a MARKETING DISCUSSION?

If aerosmith is selling tickets for a concert and 60,000 people are willing to pay...should they only sell 10,000 tickets? Does selling all 60,000 (or even 30,000) somehow decrease the response to the next showing?

I think not.

I don't see what's going on????

Is this the same guy who's insecure and feels the need to flash his cash to validate himself?

Yeah....

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Daniel E Taylor 15 years ago

Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind

Is this the same guy who's insecure and feels the need to flash his cash to validate himself?

...

Yea that's me. Mr Insecure.

Daniel
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DougBarger

15 years ago

"The I.s.a.a.c. Offer"

One principle of scarcity that may have been covered earlier in the thread(but I didn't see it if it was) is that by limiting the quantity,

not only is the "perceived value" of products or services greatly increased...

...but also the true value is increased as well.

To put this in perspective while further illustrating this principle let us consider the true value of the cash prize of the $100,000,000 lottery as it is awarded to the man (or woman) holding the winning ticket.

Now let us consider the value of that same $100,000,000 prize (with just one variable) as it is enjoyed

by the 100,000,000 winning ticket holders who are now sharing the purse amongst one another.

This is even truer when the product and/or service offered (provided) is:

*Information

*Strategy

*Analysis of sensitive market data

*Advice

*Consultation

The obvious reason is that the less people who possess the information (with ramifications reaching into the realtime marketplace)

the less competition they have and greater advantage they enjoy implementing.

More advantage and Less Competition=More potential profits

More potential profits=More true value

Wish I had another 15 minutes to discuss scarcity further
but it's dinner time

so I've got to make myself scarce.

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JayXtreme

15 years ago

Originally Posted by DougBarger

"The I.s.a.a.c. Offer"

One principle of scarcity that may have been covered earlier in the thread(but I didn't see it if it was) is that by limiting the quantity,

not only is the "perceived value" of products or services greatly increased...

...but also the true value is increased as well.

To put this in perspective while further illustrating this principle let us consider the true value of the cash prize of the $100,000,000 lottery as it is awarded to the man (or woman) holding the winning ticket.

Now let us consider the value of that same $100,000,000 prize (with just one variable) as it is enjoyed

by the 100,000,000 winning ticket holders who are now sharing the purse amongst one another.

This is even truer when the product and/or service offered (provided) is:

*Information

*Strategy

*Analysis of sensitive market data

*Advice

*Consultation

The obvious reason is that the less people who possess the information (with ramifications reaching into the realtime marketplace)

the less competition they have and greater advantage they enjoy implementing.

More advantage and Less Competition=More potential profits

More potential profits=More true value

Wish I had another 15 minutes to discuss scarcity further
but it's dinner time

so I've got to make myself scarce.

So true Doug....

I think this is a point many fail to see with things like this...

With limited offers, the less diluted the marketplace comes with the information given..

Jay

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spudzz

15 years ago

Another brilliant launch from Frank, pushing all the right buttons in the right order.

I'm with others here in saying though that there was more to learn from the launch than probably from the product itself - get all of Cialdini's books and you'll have ten times what will be in any of the Mass Control variants I'd have thought at a fraction of the cost. But that's marketing - Frank Kern's very successfully sold the sizzle and deserves full creds for that.

Just one point though - Frank obviously took on affiliates for this but mailed his own list an hour before they did and basically sold out on that. If I was an affiliate that had pushed this to their list I'd not be best pleased by that - other big name marketers let their affiliates get first shot on the big launches. Yes, I know there'll be the inevitable relaunch but probably without the so generous opening offer and those potential customers who waited to purchase through the affiliate links probably aren't best pleased at present.

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Jason Moffatt

15 years ago

Originally Posted by spudzz

Another brilliant launch from Frank, pushing all the right buttons in the right order.

I'm with others here in saying though that there was more to learn from the launch than probably from the product itself - get all of Cialdini's books and you'll have ten times what will be in any of the Mass Control variants I'd have thought at a fraction of the cost. But that's marketing - Frank Kern's very successfully sold the sizzle and deserves full creds for that.

Just one point though - Frank obviously took on affiliates for this but mailed his own list an hour before they did and basically sold out on that. If I was an affiliate that had pushed this to their list I'd not be best pleased by that - other big name marketers let their affiliates get first shot on the big launches. Yes, I know there'll be the inevitable relaunch but probably without the so generous opening offer and those potential customers who waited to purchase through the affiliate links probably aren't best pleased at present.

Frank may of sold the sizzle, but he's delivering Fillet Mignon.

Also, Frank mailed his list an hour before yes. But that list was compiled of all the leads that we as affiliates sent to him.

Any visitors we sent during the week all had the exact same opportunity as the next guy. As long as you had opted in during the week, there was equal chance for everyone.

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Nicholas Ho

15 years ago

He did a great job on the marketing, created a huge buzz and demand, and tons of people took him up on the great offer quickly. That's the ONLY reason it had that result.

Speaking of results, he did what he said, and next time, it could have sold out faster than ever.
Very very nice marketing strategy I can say.

-Nicholas Ho

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OnlineMasterMind

15 years ago

To everyone who is talking about this being a "test".... at this price point.....basically around 70-80% of people would have to cancel w/o paying even one month...

I just don't see even a remote chance of that happening.

Mike... how did you say it?... "Hello!"

Ok.... but at the end of the day.... I have to say....

VegasVince,

You're right. I agree.

Even though I thought this was a reasonable question at the time, I can see now that it's pretty much being perceived as criticism and that definitely wasn't my intention.

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Kyle Tully

15 years ago

Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind

To everyone who is talking about this being a "test".... at this price point.....basically around 70-80% of people would have to cancel w/o paying even one month...

I just don't see even a remote chance of that happening.

Not even a remote chance?

I'd think again.

There is a very real possibility the stick rate will only be around 10%.

I think it's a bigger risk than many people are assuming.

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virtualpro

15 years ago

I think it would definitely more than 10% for the first month.

For me ~300$ is about what is my living cost/month.Living here is cheap and I'm frugal since born.

I'm still unsure to refuse his offer now, since everyone praise about him in this forum. All of you're his saleman now, you know? :p

And another thing is I already find out how to cover subscription cost for 1-2 month, just because he spread so big buzz. Without see his product yet...

Really, frank already told a lot of secrets.

Thanks,
Lee

Originally Posted by Kyle Tully

Not even a remote chance?

I'd think again.

There is a very real possibility the stick rate will only be around 10%.

I think it's a bigger risk than many people are assuming.

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covert 15 years ago

Psychologically it breaks down a couple of ways...

#1 Some have taken the offer with the intention to never pay the $297 (bottom feeders)
#2 Others will actually try the $297 (myself) and see if there is enough value in the membership.
#3 Some will make a decision after they review the pack and 1st month. Their decision to keep it will be based on results and if they made money (this in politics would be the swing vote).

The law of reciprocity is very strong with this offer. If you are a reasonable person, and get a good value from the package and 1st month, you automatically pay the 2nd months $297 because you want to give back to what has been given. This is how a someone who is really looking for value will view this.

You see the $297 (even if only paid one month) is really the price. Frank gets 500 to pay $297 only once and he brings in close to $150,000 (that is on the low side, I expect at least half to pay the $297), and that is if it doesn't work. He pays out 50% to his affiliates and is left with some coin in his pocket. Now that is on the low end. I believe he will get a much higher rate of buy in on the $297, because he is delivering a quality product....

Frank has stacked the deck...

Over the last year, I have signed up for many, many membership programs as a way to see which ones are good and which ones are not. I have learned a lot over that time and then created my own membership site by over-delivering high quality material vs what is usually put out by people.

My criteria is based on my value for dollar spent. I have bought some memberships that were $29.95 and weren't worth the printed paper (not much anyway) and others that have been $200+ and gave real value for dollar spent.

If I get one idea that allows me to jump my income by thousands then it was a worthwhile investment. Frank knows this and must be confident in his material otherwise he wouldn't take the risk... All business is risk and that is part of the deal...

Using several of Frank's tactics has yielded me a recurring $3,000-4,000/month in my new membership plan. I directly used his tactics and directly saw the benefit. And as a result, all of my other income streams have been affected in the positive ( by the way, I am not even in the Internet market niche)

So, I am excited to see how some of these tactics (I really only need one good one) will jump my income even greater...

I expect great results, and I know I'll get them.

-Al
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John Ritz

15 years ago

I know this may come as a 'shocker'...

But Frank was just doing exactly what he said he was doing. He was running a TEST. The reason why he didn't pay a ton to print up 10,000+ of those packages is because this exact offer for him is UNPROVEN. It's very risky. (Especially with the "you don't even have to send it back" guarantee.)

It's very possible that Frank could end up losing money on this whole thing. And if he had offered it to more people the losses could really add up. So I think he did the smart thing and offered it to a decent size to give it a test. I'm sure if the stick rate makes it profitable then he'll do it again with a much higher limit.

But again, this is another one of those marketing events where people are looking for things that don't even exist. Sometimes it's not that complicated. As I said, in this case, it's simply a test. There wasn't some calculated evil scheme to quickly throw up a "SOLD OUT" sign so it would generate more money for some "Stage II" sneaky plan that's being cooked up. He did a great job on the marketing, created a huge buzz and demand, and tons of people took him up on the great offer quickly. That's the ONLY reason it had that result.

-John Reese

Yup. I know a marketing test is not as sexy or interesting as a full-blown marketing conspiracy (there's that pesky rubber neck effect again!), but it is what it is.

I was too late to get in on Frank's offer, but if it's profitable enough for him, I suspect he'll open it up again to more people. You don't hear me whining about it in the meantime, though.

Not saying anyone specifically is whining on this thread, but, well, do I need to go on?

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Bearded

15 years ago

OK. Here's what happened.

1 - Launch videos to build a bit of buzz (though Frank doesn't need much anymore)
2 - MASSIVELY over deliver on the front end
3 - Sell out super quick, so people are still chomping at the bit to get in
4 - After the "freebie seekers" drop off next month, he can easily sell out the open spots without having to giveaway all that free stuff again, or even sell a whole lot more spots at full price. (or maybe with a discounted 1st month)

Did you guys notice how little sales copy was involved in this launch? Frank can basically coast on autopilot now, because everyone knows he always delivers.

Joe

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Kyle Tully

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Bearded

OK. Here's what happened.

1 - Launch videos to build a bit of buzz (though Frank doesn't need much

<snip>

Did you guys notice how little sales copy was involved in this launch? Frank can basically coast on autopilot now, because everyone knows he always delivers.

Joe I think you massively underestimate the "stuff" going on in #1.

Frank didn't just throw up a video and "coast on autopilot". He worked on those videos for weeks in advance of the launch. And guess what every single word of those videos is.... sales copy!

Plus there's tons of subliminal NLP stuff going on in each of those videos. The series follows a very specific theme... each video plays a certain role within that theme... while also hitting a number of triggers, conditioning prices, scarcity, likability etc.

To anyone saying "Frank can basically coast on autopilot now, because everyone knows he always delivers" needs to take a closer look at what's going on.

Part of Franks whole "gig" is making things look easy. And that's exactly what he does. But there is so much going on under the surface it's not funny.

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OnlineMasterMind

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Kyle Tully

Joe I think you massively underestimate the "stuff" going on in #1.

Frank didn't just throw up a video and "coast on autopilot". He worked on those videos for weeks in advance of the launch. And guess what every single word of those videos is.... sales copy!

Plus there's tons of subliminal NLP stuff going on in each of those videos. The series follows a very specific theme... each video plays a certain role within that theme... while also hitting a number of triggers, conditioning prices, scarcity, likability etc.

To anyone saying "Frank can basically coast on autopilot now, because everyone knows he always delivers" needs to take a closer look at what's going on.

Part of Franks whole "gig" is making things look easy. And that's exactly what he does. But there is so much going on under the surface it's not funny.

Great point Kyle. I always like reading your posts.

But I still think you're a little crazy for saying this

Originally Posted by Kyle Tully

There is a very real possibility the stick rate will only be around 10%.

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Kyle Tully

15 years ago

Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind

Great point Kyle. I always like reading your posts.

Originally Posted by Kyle Tully

There is a very real possibility the stick rate will only be around 10%.

But I still think you're a little crazy for saying this

Honestly I think it's a bit of a crap shoot.

And it's got nothing to do with the quality of the product or how much reciprocation he's built up. It could be the best product in the world and have massive reciprocation going on and still only hit 10%

Just take a look at the market, there are plenty of people without 2 cents to rub together... just as many of them (if not more) than serious business owners.

And they're all on Frank's list just like everyone else.

They've been salivating over Frank's products for the last few launches but have been unable to afford them... they'll jump at the chance to get their hands on it for $19.

But how many of them can even afford the first $297 payment?

Add the fact that Frank makes in sound like as soon as you get his stuff you'll start making money... and I'm guessing there will be a lot of people with $20 on their credit cards playing the Mass Control lottery and hoping to make their first $297 before the payments kick in.

Just depends how many of these people get in vs the more serious business people. And without much (if any) control over this I stand by my comment that he may only get 10% stick.

Either way it was a great mini-launch to watch and he'll make some nice coin and/or learn something new about his market.

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Louis Raven 15 years ago

Maybe all those that missed out will listen when Franks states: "x limited amount!".

If he did not keep his word, how many people do you think will buy on his next promo?
They'll think "oh, 20 copies left.. yeah right!".

You'll never get military respect wearing bright pink. In fact, Frank RARELY uses scarcity if you think about it. There's no need to.

Louis
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  ishykiel 15 years ago
  
  In relation to the question that "Scarcity Gone Too Far?".
  
  I really think that it is relative in nature. For a bigger market like the internet marketing market, 2000 is like an ok number to me.
  
  For a smaller market and niche like for "Pea collectors" or something, the number might need to be lower.
  
  What I learned from all this is that:
  
  Scarcity is definitely a marketing technique that one can use to complement all the other marketing strategies employed.
  
  And I feel that, it will work better if you are someone who is recognised and who already has a following.
  
  Not to mention a boat load of "Super Affiliates" who are big names themselves.
  
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xlfutur1 15 years ago

Sounds pretty brilliant actually. Even as a test, the 18 bucks covers his postage and costs pretty much, then if only 10% stay on at $297, he just added 60K per month to his income. Worth the time to make a DVD of what you are doing in other areas that's for sure.

He can then sell those 10% higher priced seminars and other stuff. In the long run, its a million dollar per year business waiting to happen.

Then of course he could always open it up for 24 hours again to people who didn't make it in the first time. Probably adding another 2000 people to the mix X 10% who stay on each month....you get the idea.
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MaskedMarketer 15 years ago

Originally Posted by John_Reese

I know this may come as a 'shocker'...

He was running a TEST.

-John Reese

I am not doubting Frank in this case, but he is a master at what he does.

And everyone should know that "marketing test" is usually a "marketing ploy".

Not saying Frank did it deliberate. And even if he did I applaud him for his
marketing abilities.

People that are complaining, upset, or don't like the fact they didn't have a full 24 hours to "check it out"- really need to take a step back and understand why he does this and why he makes so much money.
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giveusallfreedom

15 years ago

The membership costs $297 a month. You didn't miss anything. You can have my membership if you want it. :^)

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JaniG

15 years ago

From a psycological point of view, i think seeing a SOLD OUT page makes me want it even more.

This may be a tactic to get even more buyers ready for a possible sale in a few weeks?

If so , then this could get even more sales then if he kept it up.

BUT if this is not the plan, then maybe because its a physical product??

J

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VegasVince 15 years ago

These Frank Kern threads remind me of a part of the population who actually care how much cocaine Britney Spears snorts and how fat her ass is or isn't getting et al.

Dumb like a fox Britney keeps lip syncing her way to millions all the while pulling the strings of a puppet, voyeuristic society who find it easier to live via the success and failures of anyone BUT THEMSELVES.

The fact remains.....marketing's smoking man....once again went out and hit the jackpot...via MASS CONTROL. And I say kudos.

And rather then asking why...I'd rather study the "how."

When you reach the point in your career where the entire marketing world analyzes and disects your pre-pre-launch, your pre-launch, the launch itself, the after lauch and everything before and after that---you my friends....are A LEGEND.

Frank Kern is a legend. Period. And the numbers back that up.

I missed out on the launch cuz I chose to stay up all night watching Kern's surfin' buddy Jason Moffatt roll around on his bed....via his live tv show.....but I aint bitchin'.

I've learned quite a bit about mass control....just watchin' Frank market it. True.

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johnmiley

15 years ago

I've heard from sources "close to Frank" that one of the reasons he limited this deal was due to the fact that the packets he's sending out are loss-leaders to him. You cover postage and handling, but he still takes a bath on product cost to the tune of about $20 per packet.
Therefore, he only wanted the most rabid fans to get in on it, and not tire-kickers. I didn't get in on the deal, so maybe I'm a tire-kicker?
Who knows.
Anyway, that may have played into this as well.
Cheers.

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Black Hat Cat

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by johnmiley

I've heard from sources "close to Frank" that one of the reasons he limited this deal was due to the fact that the packets he's sending out are loss-leaders to him. You cover postage and handling, but he still takes a bath on product cost to the tune of about $20 per packet.

Cheers.

If true, he's really getting ripped off. Shipping will cost maybe 8 bucks. That means he's paying a $10 handling fee that doesn't even include product cost.

Funny thing is, guru types have been telling us for a few years now that physical products can be produced for next to nothing. Now they're telling us it's so expensive, lol.

As for the original intent of this thread, please. Frank can sell as many or as few copies as he pleases.

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Scott Million

15 years ago

Originally Posted by OnlineMasterMind

This post is not intended to bash Kern or question the integrity of tactics or anything like that...

None of that.

I sincerely value learning from anyone who is as passionate about marketing as Frank is and I've definitely learned a lot...

But I seriously don't understand this way of doing business. I mean, the order page was up for like 15 minutes????

Isn't the goal of business to maximize profits?

Sure, maybe you want to brand your business a certain way that adds more perceived value to it...

But would leaving the order page up for a day really detract from that?

For example, I'm someone who isn't gonna sit around and go to the site exactly at a certain time desperately waiting to buy something. I understand that's who he's targeting and that's wonderful. It's very smart actually. But I also think that myself along with many others would still be good prospects.

I like Frank, saw some of his videos, and would have been interested to see what he had to offer. I got back from a meeting with a local client...go to check out the site and I see it's sold out?

It almost seems like putting a sold out page on your site as fast as humanly possible is the cool thing to do nowadays regardless of whether or not it's the most objective business decision.

I dunno... maybe I'm just totally missing something here...

I just don't get it b/c personally this doesn't make me desire what he was selling any more than if it was only available for a day...

Do you agree with his strategy? Are there some benefits that I'm missing?

P.S. The only possible explanation I could think of would be that he wanted to make sure that the offer would be profitable... But if that was the case, wouldn't it make sense to just raise the S&H to cover the cost of the products, while putting himself in a no lose situation. I don't think that would have affected the response to the offer.

LOL - It's amazing how Frank does it. People so eager to buy that they're actually UPSET when he won't sell it to them...the guy is a genius, that's for sure. I'll bet you'll be the first one to buy his next class in a few months

.

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optimum

Banned 15 years ago

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MaskedMarketer 15 years ago

Instead of analyzing if FRANK could have made more money, why not just use these tactics and for yourself and see? Test them out?

Not only is he a master marketer, sells out memberships, but he knows how to create buzz- Did Frank create this thread? JK lol...
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jnapier

15 years ago

I was one of the few who got in on the special promotion (ie: one of the 2000). I liked what I got, but the stuff I got for the $297 was lame. I got a BIG box, then a package with 2 little video clips. I would have stuff with it, but didn't want to wait to see what the 3rd month would bring for the $297.

My suggestion - and I hope Frank reads this. A) Add more value to the monthly product or b) Charge less for it.

Jay NaPier

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MaskedMarketer

15 years ago

Originally Posted by jnapier

I was one of the few who got in on the special promotion (ie: one of the 2000). I liked what I got, but the stuff I got for the $297 was lame. I got a BIG box, then a package with 2 little video clips. I would have stuff with it, but didn't want to wait to see what the 3rd month would bring for the $297.

My suggestion - and I hope Frank reads this. A) Add more value to the monthly product or b) Charge less for it.

Jay NaPier

In information marketing, its not about the size of the product, but the actual content on there.

Are you saying with the information given you couldn't suck out atleast 300 extra dollars in a month?

Did you even implement the stratgies?

I'm not doubting weather its good or not, but many people don't even implement what they learn and those people are normally ones who complain ( i'm not saying thats you)

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"One Man's Ceiling is Another Man's Floor"

"I Pay Less Attention to What Men Say. I Just Watch What They Do."

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jnapier

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MaskedMarketer

In information marketing, its not about the size of the product, but the actual content on there.

Are you saying with the information given you couldn't suck out atleast 300 extra dollars in a month?

Did you even implement the stratgies?

I'm not doubting weather its good or not, but many people don't even implement what they learn and those people are normally ones who complain ( i'm not saying thats you)

Yep, put it to work almost immediatly. You see, the idea he was suggesting was a free trial. In my product, a free trial is not an option.

Jay NaPier

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Alex Sol

15 years ago

Watch Frank come out with a new product:

"How YOU can make 1,000 sales in 15 minutes FLAT"

:p

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Alex Sol, Full time online marketer since 2007
The Extra Paycheck Blog | Extra Paycheck Podcast

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Steven Carl Kelly

15 years ago

Personally, I'm not particularly interested in anything that Frank Kern sells, so I had no idea that a product launch was underway at all. However, I understand (and have used) the scarcity tactic and I will tell you this: it is very, very effective -- at least it has been when I've used it.

Scarcity and price escalation are two very effective methods when used properly. In fact, I've used both online and offline at my live seminars to great effect.

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Frank Kern - Scarcity Gone Too Far?

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