A very large company goofed - forgot to register domain name for new product. What to do, what to do

120 replies
OOPS!

Somebody forgot to tell someone in their marketing/web
department to register the domain name for their new
product that will be launching nationwide this spring/summer.

I just happened to see an article snippet of some news
that was posted earlier today and when I saw the name
of their new product, I thought... "I wonder if the .com
is available?"

I was quite shocked that it was to say the least. I quickly
did some research and found that I may have stuck a
little gold. Their main product has over 200,000 [exact]
searches per month.

I just snagged the domain name.

Some searching around at their other products shows
that they did register the names and have them forwarded
to their product pages. Looks like someone forgot this
important step.

Just in case you are wondering - because it was the
first thing that came to my mind...

There is no way that this name is trademarked because
I found a couple of lesser known companies/products
that also use this name.

However, when the company officially launches this
product, it will be all over TV, in magazines, talked
about on TV, you name it. They will pour millions into
marketing this new drink.

So... what should I do with the domain?

Sit on it and know that they will be contacting me at
some point soon with an offer?

Build up a quick site, do some SEO, get a bunch of
backlinks and get the site to #1 before the drink
launches and everyone is searching for it?

Put it up for sale on a popular domain selling site?

Something else?

What would you do?
#company #domain #forgot #goofed #large #product #register
  • Profile picture of the author Rich Struck
    Forget it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Texas_Guns
      Originally Posted by Rich Struck View Post

      That was a pretty scummy thing to do.
      LOL - This is no different than the millions of
      Amazon websites/affiliates targeting specific
      products, item numbers, etc. in their domain.
      And no different using domain name tools to
      get web 2.0 site ideas that combine two words.
      These are two very common words.

      KatyaSenina, the domain is simply two simple words.
      Like tree and house. Or spring and water. 100%
      positive that it is not trademarked. Just two
      random words - and searching around the words
      in quotes, the words are used a lot. A TON of
      people use the two words for their forum names,
      usernames, etc. Also using the two in recipes
      I just found. Huh.

      Worst case, it is a cool 'web 2.0' type name that
      I'm sure I can find a use for someday.
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      • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
        Originally Posted by Texas_Guns View Post

        LOL - This is no different than the millions of
        Amazon websites/affiliates targeting specific
        products, item numbers, etc. in their domain.
        And no different using domain name tools to
        get web 2.0 site ideas that combine two words.
        These are two very common words.

        KatyaSenina, the domain is simply two simple words.
        Like tree and house. Or spring and water. 100%
        positive that it is not trademarked. Just two
        random words - and searching around the words
        in quotes, the words are used a lot. A TON of
        people use the two words for their forum names,
        usernames, etc. Also using the two in recipes
        I just found. Huh.

        Worst case, it is a cool 'web 2.0' type name that
        I'm sure I can find a use for someday.
        Might want to go do a trademark search at USPTO before declaring straight up that the name in question isn't trademarked.

        It might surprise you.
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        • Profile picture of the author Texas_Guns
          Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

          Might want to go do a trademark search at USPTO before declaring straight up that the name in question isn't trademarked.

          It might surprise you.
          Hey Floyd,

          I appreciate that and I did check there. It is 100% clear.
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      • Profile picture of the author drmani
        Originally Posted by Texas_Guns View Post

        the domain is simply two simple words.
        Like tree and house. Or spring and water. 100%
        positive that it is not trademarked. Just two
        random words - and searching around the words
        in quotes, the words are used a lot. A TON of
        people use the two words for their forum names,
        usernames, etc. Also using the two in recipes
        I just found. Huh.

        Teach Book? - Nope

        Lame Book? - Uh-huh

        Place Book? - No

        Not sure if 'forgetting it' may not be a relevant 2-word phrase either!

        All success
        Dr.Mani
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        • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
          Originally Posted by drmani View Post

          Teach Book? - Nope

          Lame Book? - Uh-huh

          Place Book? - No

          Not sure if 'forgetting it' may not be a relevant 2-word phrase either!

          All success
          Dr.Mani
          Completely different. Facebook doesn't own the trademark for everything on the net that includes face or book. Neither of those two words can be used in a domain that is hosting a social network. That is all.... that is how trademarks work.

          If the domain, familyguy.com was available... and I bought it, fox could not sue me for the domain, just because it is a show. I could have pictures of me and my family, and refer to myself as the family guy, and they couldn't do anything about it except buy me out.
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          • Profile picture of the author drmani
            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

            Completely different. Facebook doesn't own the trademark for everything on the net that includes face or book. Neither of those two words can be used in a domain that is hosting a social network. That is all.... that is how trademarks work.
            Thanks for that clarification. I found this too on another related story:

            The trademark would only apply to Facebook's business as a provider of "telecommunication services, namely providing online chat rooms and electronic bulletin boards for transmission of messages among computer users in the field of general interest and concerning social and entertainment subject matter."
            All success
            Dr.Mani
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          • Profile picture of the author Will Perkins
            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

            Completely different. Facebook doesn't own the trademark for everything on the net that includes face or book. Neither of those two words can be used in a domain that is hosting a social network. That is all.... that is how trademarks work.

            If the domain, familyguy.com was available... and I bought it, fox could not sue me for the domain, just because it is a show. I could have pictures of me and my family, and refer to myself as the family guy, and they couldn't do anything about it except buy me out.


            Have fun in court....

            Certain words cannot be trademarked, you're right. But if I were to open something that is the SPECIFIC name of a product, show, company, service, whatever... and it was trademarked? There is no "I wonder if I'll get sued", it's "I wonder WHEN I'll get sued".
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            • Profile picture of the author Zanti
              Ok, I'm a little confused here. The OP has stated more than once that due diligence has been done and there is no issue with trademark. I take him at his word for that.

              So based on that premise and the original question, what should he do?
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            • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
              Originally Posted by Will Perkins View Post

              [/B]

              Have fun in court....

              Certain words cannot be trademarked, you're right. But if I were to open something that is the SPECIFIC name of a product, show, company, service, whatever... and it was trademarked? There is no "I wonder if I'll get sued", it's "I wonder WHEN I'll get sued".
              LOL... you people are SO paranoid is disgusting. It is completely ignorant to say if I would buy a domain name of something trademarked, I would go to court. It just isn't true. If dirtdevil.com was still available, I could EASILY, start a website about a mythical dirt devil fascination in new mexico outside of area 51. You can have a trademarked product domain, as long as it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the product. If you're parking these domains, then you have NOTHING to worry about.

              I'm starting to see why so many people have trouble here making money. People are lazy enough, then they justify their laziness by being scared of legal battles, when there is nothing illegal about it.

              I suggest calling the USPTO if you have questions, or an attorney that specializes in that area. I have, and have all the information I need.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
              Originally Posted by Will Perkins View Post

              [/B]

              Have fun in court....

              Certain words cannot be trademarked, you're right. But if I were to open something that is the SPECIFIC name of a product, show, company, service, whatever... and it was trademarked? There is no "I wonder if I'll get sued", it's "I wonder WHEN I'll get sued".
              That's not how trademarks work.
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          • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
            Banned
            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post


            If the domain, familyguy.com was available... and I bought it, fox could not sue me for the domain, just because it is a show. I could have pictures of me and my family, and refer to myself as the family guy, and they couldn't do anything about it except buy me out.
            I hope the lawyers in your family aren't giving you that nonsensical advice. Fox could easily sue you. Now, winning is a different story, but there is zero doubt that they could sue you over it, and last I checked, most lawyers don't work for free.
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          • Profile picture of the author Sparklesperson
            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

            Completely different. Facebook doesn't own the trademark for everything on the net that includes face or book. Neither of those two words can be used in a domain that is hosting a social network. That is all.... that is how trademarks work.

            If the domain, familyguy.com was available... and I bought it, fox could not sue me for the domain, just because it is a show. I could have pictures of me and my family, and refer to myself as the family guy, and they couldn't do anything about it except buy me out.
            Ford Motor Company, which owns Jaguar, sued a child who had a website that talked about jaguars.. the furry kind. Trust me, they can sue you for trademark infringement...
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            • Profile picture of the author Cesar Sampaio
              I can talk of my own experience. I did register brand names in the past and nothing happened to this day. Not doing this anymore but the risk exists and you have to decide if it is worth it.

              Originally Posted by Sparklesperson View Post

              Ford Motor Company, which owns Jaguar, sued a child who had a website that talked about jaguars.. the furry kind. Trust me, they can sue you for trademark infringement...
              Haven't heard of it but the sheer idiocy of this plus the public backlash of a corporation suing a child makes sure it was not worth it. Some companies really needs to put shorter leashes on their lawyers.
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          • Profile picture of the author garben2011
            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

            Completely different. Facebook doesn't own the trademark for everything on the net that includes face or book. Neither of those two words can be used in a domain that is hosting a social network. That is all.... that is how trademarks work.
            I'm certainly no lawyer but this article seems to illustrate that at least in the case of FB one would need to be careful even using the word face in a domain. Their basis for the trademark is that any site using the word face is trying to capitalize on their popularity. Which I agree is certainly crazy but even worse that the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office seems to be agreeing.

            Kind of off-topic but I have always wondered about all of these MMO products that have Facebook or MySpace or Google in the product and website names. Seems like all of those really are infringing on trademarks.
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            • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
              Originally Posted by garben2011 View Post

              I'm certainly no lawyer but this article seems to illustrate that at least in the case of FB one would need to be careful even using the word face in a domain. Their basis for the trademark is that any site using the word face is trying to capitalize on their popularity. Which I agree is certainly crazy but even worse that the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office seems to be agreeing.

              Kind of off-topic but I have always wondered about all of these MMO products that have Facebook or MySpace or Google in the product and website names. Seems like all of those really are infringing on trademarks.
              I can have a domain, facelifts.com talking about cosmetic surgery, and not be violating anything. The case with facebook, is simple.... you can't use any social network with face or book in it. You can't profit off that, correct. I could have a site called booksrus.com and sell books, and it is perfectly legal, no violation.
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              • Profile picture of the author Gene Pimentel
                Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                if you buy a domain name, and it is just parked, there are no grounds for them to sue you.
                You do have to be careful with parked pages. If the links displayed on the parked pages relate to the trademark in any way, there is grounds for a lawsuit.
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                • Profile picture of the author sparkman
                  Originally Posted by Gene Pimentel View Post

                  You do have to be careful with parked pages. If the links displayed on the parked pages relate to the trademark in any way, there is grounds for a lawsuit.
                  In fact, if there is any advertising on the parking page (even advertising that you will not receive a penny from i.e., godaddy) the company can claim mala fide and you better be able to prove that you are actively developing a site even before you were served with a cease & desist. If not, you look very bad in the eyes of the UDRP arbitrators and courts (if it gets that far).

                  Also, "passive use" like a parking page, etc. is not ok in an infrigement case. Look it up. You have to get something up that doesn't have any advertising up there to be considered active use. No advertising allowed.

                  One type of site that can be ok even for a trademarked name is if it's a "sucks" site, even on a brand name. Regardless whether it's a site like walmartsucks.com or walmart.com (with sucks content and no ads) both are absolutely ok, if you're an American citizen.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike McAleer
            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

            Completely different. Facebook doesn't own the trademark for everything on the net that includes face or book. Neither of those two words can be used in a domain that is hosting a social network. That is all.... that is how trademarks work.

            If the domain, familyguy.com was available... and I bought it, fox could not sue me for the domain, just because it is a show. I could have pictures of me and my family, and refer to myself as the family guy, and they couldn't do anything about it except buy me out.
            that makes sense a lot actually thanks..



            I would want to know what this domain is anyhow
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            • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
              Originally Posted by Willie Crawford View Post

              Yes, unless you have very deep pocket, don't mind the legal
              hassles, and... I guess enjoy the fights, I'd wouldn't go anywhere
              near anyones trademark.

              Any you'd be surprised at what can be trademarked.

              I once did an interview for a friend who frequently ran
              specials on his site. He used the term "today's special offer"
              on his page... I think it was a banner, and I received a0
              "cease and desist" letter from a popular television shopping
              network's lawyers because they saw their trademarked term
              on the page and mistakenly thought it was mine.

              I thought it was funny, and I do enjoy competitions, I just
              don't relish wasting a lot of time sitting in court fighting a
              losing battle

              Willie
              You STILL, can own any domain you want...trademark or not.

              Originally Posted by BulletheadX View Post

              Read this guy's story:

              Nissan Computer Corporation
              And he won. The court case, could have easily been avoided. Do you think a corporation wants to pay $2,000 an hour to their attorneys to get a domain name from somebody? The guy messed up when he probably asked for 500,000 or somewhere around there, but he ended up winning anyway.

              Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

              Legal issues aside...

              How do you feel about deliberately capitalizing on someone else's honest mistake to line your own pockets?

              Daniel... How do you feel about capitalizing on someone elses mistake? Selling something for 397, because they aren't making enough sales... LOL, sure you're going to come back and say it is completely different, but whatever.

              Honest mistakes are still mistakes, and if someone else has the domain name, oh well... Kudos to the OP for getting it.
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              • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
                Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                Daniel... How do you feel about capitalizing on someone elses mistake? Selling something for 397, because they aren't making enough sales... LOL, sure you're going to come back and say it is completely different, but whatever.

                Honest mistakes are still mistakes, and if someone else has the domain name, oh well... Kudos to the OP for getting it.
                There's a difference I would have thought was rather obvious.

                I'm providing value via my services. I'm giving my hard-earned advice and helping people make more money.

                The OP is simply profiteering.

                If that's okay with you, then more power to you... but let's at least try to keep our arguments coherent and logical.

                -Daniel
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                • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                  The one thing I've noticed about this thread is, despite several people of considerable note telling him/her otherwise, iAmNameLess is still peddling nonsense about breaching Trademarks.

                  What concerns me are the newbies that read his/her advice and go around buying Trademarked domains.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                    iAmNameLess, have a look at this thread.

                    It's about an Amazon site that got nuked, for....yup you guessed it, having a trademark in the domain. Brian Kindsvater, who started the thread, is an internet Lawyer.

                    I'd be really interested to see the two of you discuss this, as I suspect you'll be able to tell him how to do his job properly. :rolleyes:

                    In fact you can tell all the IM experts in there, how they are in fact, wrong.

                    LOL... you people are SO paranoid is disgusting. It is completely ignorant to say if I would buy a domain name of something trademarked, I would go to court. It just isn't true.
                    Finally...
                    I have a great relationship with a few law firms, my family consists of all lawyers, a couple judges and a state senator in Michigan, so I know how useful the law can be!
                    Can you get one of these members of your family to come here and confirm it's ok to buy domains with trademarks in them and be safe in the knowledge that the trademark owner has no right to stop you using and profiting from it?

                    I'd really appreciate it if you could, I must be leaving a lot of money on the table right now.
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                    • Profile picture of the author webpromotions
                      Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                      iAmNameLess, have a look at this thread.

                      It's about an Amazon site that got nuked, for....yup you guessed it, having a trademark in the domain. Brian Kindsvater, who started the thread, is an internet Lawyer.

                      I'd be really interested to see the two of you discuss this, as I suspect you'll be able to tell him how to do his job properly. :rolleyes:

                      In fact you can tell all the IM experts in there, how they are in fact, wrong.

                      Finally...
                      Can you get one of these members of your family to come here and confirm it's ok to buy domains with trademarks in them and be safe in the knowledge that the trademark owner has no right to stop you using and profiting from it?

                      I'd really appreciate it if you could, I must be leaving a lot of money on the table right now.

                      Good info Richard, but don't feed the troll.
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                    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
                      Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                      iAmNameLess, have a look at this thread.

                      It's about an Amazon site that got nuked, for....yup you guessed it, having a trademark in the domain. Brian Kindsvater, who started the thread, is an internet Lawyer.

                      I'd be really interested to see the two of you discuss this, as I suspect you'll be able to tell him how to do his job properly. :rolleyes:

                      In fact you can tell all the IM experts in there, how they are in fact, wrong.

                      Finally...
                      Can you get one of these members of your family to come here and confirm it's ok to buy domains with trademarks in them and be safe in the knowledge that the trademark owner has no right to stop you using and profiting from it?

                      I'd really appreciate it if you could, I must be leaving a lot of money on the table right now.
                      Wow, you know what, maybe you should try it and have first hand experience before you try to cut me down.

                      Maybe you should also try READING, what I have said.

                      Here is the deal.... you buy a domain with a trademark, YOU ARE PERFECTLY FINE. If you buy a domain with a trademark and mention ANYTHING about their product, you are not fine. If you buy a domain with a trademark and ads are running, that are pointing to sites about their product, or to their site, you are not fine.

                      Owning a domain name that happens to be a trademark, is perfectly fine. Just don't use their product to profit.
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                      • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
                        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                        Wow, you know what, maybe you should try it and have first hand experience before you try to cut me down.

                        Maybe you should also try READING, what I have said.

                        Here is the deal.... you buy a domain with a trademark, YOU ARE PERFECTLY FINE. If you buy a domain with a trademark and mention ANYTHING about their product, you are not fine. If you buy a domain with a trademark and ads are running, that are pointing to sites about their product, or to their site, you are not fine.

                        Owning a domain name that happens to be a trademark, is perfectly fine. Just don't use their product to profit.

                        AND TO CLARIFY, NOBODY NEEDS TO PUT UP A WEBSITE WHEN THEY BUY A DOMAIN NAME. IT IS 100% IGNORANT TO CLAIM YOU CAN BE SUED FOR HAVING A DOMAIN NAME JUST LAYING AROUND. THAT IS RIDICULOUS, AND BEFORE YOU QUOTE ANY NONSENSE, OR LINK TO ANYTHING, MAKE SURE IT IS RELEVANT!

                        Owning a domain name, is not a crime. LOL.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Jake Gray
                        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                        AND TO CLARIFY, NOBODY NEEDS TO PUT UP A WEBSITE WHEN THEY BUY A DOMAIN NAME. IT IS 100% IGNORANT TO CLAIM YOU CAN BE SUED FOR HAVING A DOMAIN NAME JUST LAYING AROUND. THAT IS RIDICULOUS, AND BEFORE YOU QUOTE ANY NONSENSE, OR LINK TO ANYTHING, MAKE SURE IT IS RELEVANT!

                        Owning a domain name, is not a crime. LOL.
                        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                        Wow, you know what, maybe you should try it and have first hand experience before you try to cut me down.

                        Maybe you should also try READING, what I have said.

                        Here is the deal.... you buy a domain with a trademark, YOU ARE PERFECTLY FINE. If you buy a domain with a trademark and mention ANYTHING about their product, you are not fine. If you buy a domain with a trademark and ads are running, that are pointing to sites about their product, or to their site, you are not fine.

                        Owning a domain name that happens to be a trademark, is perfectly fine. Just don't use their product to profit.

                        You must be an attorney, right?

                        I'd recommend not giving advice on something you don't fully understand.

                        You bashed Richard for something he was entirely correct on?

                        Trademark is Trademark.

                        I'm not sure where you learned If a domain is not in use, it isn't a trademark.
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                      • Profile picture of the author davezan
                        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                        Here is the deal.... you buy a domain with a trademark, YOU ARE PERFECTLY FINE.
                        Unfortunately, that's not always the case. Consider this one:

                        Ford Motor Co. v. Ford Fin. Solutions, Inc. | Internet Trademark Case Summaries | Finnegan

                        Heck, one person even thought the word realtor is generic:

                        http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/tta...360-CAN-33.pdf

                        And lost big time. While there are few cases where a domain holder managed
                        to fend off a domain-trademark dispute, you're bound to find more cases that
                        support transferring the domain to a trademark holder mainly because they've
                        got one.

                        Now, you're saying it's fine because so far you've gotten away with it? While
                        not every driver gets caught for beating the speed limit, do their behavior tell
                        you if something is allowed or not?

                        I realize you're being passionate about this. But what you said here just. Isn't.
                        True.

                        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                        The truth is, if you buy a domain and it happens to be a trademark, you are not legally responsible, if you are parking the domain!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no case there. How can anyone even argue that?
                        Oh, that's been argued a few times:

                        WIPO Domain Name Decision: D2009-0258

                        WIPO Domain Name Decision: D2010-1404

                        WIPO Domain Name Decision: D2007-0267

                        If that doesn't convince you, I don't know (and don't care) what will. What I
                        am rather concerned about is people are being told things that do not reflect
                        the real world beyond our keyboards.

                        And some people wonder why it gets frustrating trying to find out what's true
                        and fiction?
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                        • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
                          Originally Posted by davezan View Post


                          I realize you're being passionate about this. But what you said here just. Isn't.
                          True.



                          Oh, that's been argued a few times:

                          WIPO Domain Name Decision: D2009-0258

                          WIPO Domain Name Decision: D2010-1404

                          WIPO Domain Name Decision: D2007-0267
                          WIPO Domain Name Decision - 0258
                          the Respondent has registered and used the domain name in bad faith. The Respondent's attempt to sell the domain name is excess of out of pocket costs, deriving revenue from misdirect Internet traffic, using the disputed domain name for promoting interrelated advertisements, use of Complainant copyrighted material by the Respondent and finally the totality of circumstances show Respondent's bad faith intent to exploit and profit from the Complainant's mark.

                          Everyone one of these has consisted of PPC and contacting the company offering to sell the domain name. A simple, PARKED domain, with NO ADS would not be subject to any legal issues.

                          WIPO Domain Name Decision - 1404
                          Complainant alleges that Respondent registered and used the disputed domain name in bad faith. Complainant contends that Respondent's initial use in connection with a pay-per-click link farm parking page sought to take advantage of Complainant's well-known mark by creating Internet user confusion as to Complainant's sponsorship or association with the parking page, and that Complainant's subsequent use in connection with a website promoting a business directly competitive with that of Complainant is confusing to Internet users and intended to disrupt a rival. Complainant further argues that Respondent's offer to sell and transfer the disputed domain name for $30,000 indicates that it was registered with the intent to sell it to Complainant for a price substantially in excess of Respondent's out-of-pocket expenses.

                          More obvious things that I have mentioned in this thread NOT to do. A parked domain with no ads, and no offer to the corporation is not subject to a bad faith accusation.

                          WIPO Domain name decision 0267 - 6.20 Any doubt in the minds of the Panel as to the motives of the Respondent in registering the Domain Name is dispelled by the fact that the Complainant puts forward evidence of the fact that the Respondent has a history of registering domain names that on their face appear to involve misspellings or mistypings of the names of trademarks, companies or businesses of third parties. These domains include (but are not limited to):
                          <nationelgeographic.org>
                          <americanexprexx.com>
                          <paeypal.com>
                          <altasvista.com>
                          <playbov.com>
                          <coralpokerr.com>


                          That is intentional, and obvious bad faith. Making money off parked domains that have ads to those sites.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                        Wow, you know what, maybe you should try it and have first hand experience before you try to cut me down.

                        Maybe you should also try READING, what I have said.

                        Here is the deal.... you buy a domain with a trademark, YOU ARE PERFECTLY FINE. If you buy a domain with a trademark and mention ANYTHING about their product, you are not fine. If you buy a domain with a trademark and ads are running, that are pointing to sites about their product, or to their site, you are not fine.

                        Owning a domain name that happens to be a trademark, is perfectly fine. Just don't use their product to profit.
                        Oh deary me, welcome back. :rolleyes:

                        First let me draw your attention to the ironic errors you've made, as always....Firstly.

                        iAmNameLess - Wow, you know what, maybe you should try it and have first hand experience before you try to cut me down.
                        Hmmm, perhaps you ought try and READ, like you recommended I do, specifically post #61, when I said this...

                        Richard Van - Years ago I was advised to do this, I lost out quite badly. That's why I don't recommend it. You can count on it, I don't comment on things I don't know about or get from a third party, if I do, I mention that.
                        Didn't you read that bit? Clearly not, isn't it funny though how you then go on to say this...

                        iAmNameLess - Maybe you should also try READING, what I have said
                        I do read what you say, very carefully, I don't skim threads like you've just proved you do.

                        You'll also realise, if you'd read what I said, that my gripe with what you say is giving out blanket statements - this legal advice nonsense may influence a newbie who gets in trouble. That's what I want to prevent. You know the risks, I know the risks, someone new to this though, may just think, as I've already said but you've chosen to ignore, or skim...

                        Richard Van - For the likes of you and me, with deeper (though not deep enough) pockets and a few more years behind us, we can take risks, we know what we're getting into and the potential consequences.

                        Someone (a newbie) reading that it's fine to do it and then reading "social proof" that the person saying it's fine, has an entire family of lawyers and judges, may think it's the way forward and either waste their time or worse.
                        Or didn't you read that either?

                        I will no longer discuss this with you. You're a waste of my time. Bear in mind though, whilst you give out legal advice here, it might be worth bearing in mind what Bill Farnham said earlier...

                        Google indexes and caches these threads, and the atty's for the plaintiff if you are sued will require a deposition under oath that could easily uncover this thread during the 'discovery' phase.


                        Finally as someone who has already documented in this thread that your entire family is made up of Lawyers, Judges and State Senators, why don't you get just one of them to prove everyone you argue against, is wrong?

                        Seems pretty straight forward to me.
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                        • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
                          Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                          Oh deary me, welcome back. :rolleyes:

                          First let me draw your attention to the ironic errors you've made, as always....Firstly.

                          Hmmm, perhaps you ought try and READ, like you recommended I do, specifically post #61, when I said this...

                          Didn't you read that bit? Clearly not, isn't it funny though how you then go on to say this...

                          I do read what you say, very carefully, I don't skim threads like you've just proved you do.

                          You'll also realise, if you'd read what I said, that my gripe with what you say is giving out blanket statements - this legal advice nonsense may influence a newbie who gets in trouble. That's what I want to prevent. You know the risks, I know the risks, someone new to this though, may just think, as I've already said but you've chosen to ignore, or skim...

                          Or didn't you read that either?

                          I will no longer discuss this with you. You're a waste of my time. Bear in mind though, whilst you give out legal advice here, it might be worth bearing in mind what Bill Farnham said earlier...



                          Finally as someone who has already documented in this thread that your entire family is made up of Lawyers, Judges and State Senators, why don't you get just one of them to prove everyone you argue against, is wrong?

                          Seems pretty straight forward to me.
                          Ironic errors... as always? I think you care a little bit too much about this buddy, and saying as always like you actually know me. I don't care if you respond or not, I'd rather you not, since you're just trying to attack everything I say anyway. You'll be back, whether you respond or not, makes no difference to me friend! In regards to legal advice, I stated facts. A domain name that may or may not be a trademark, doesn't matter if it is parked with a blank page and it is just sitting!

                          As for having some of my family members, come on an internet marketing message board to prove a point, I don't really care enough for that. How about SOMEONE, show proof of what I am saying, is wrong?

                          In fact, I challenge anyone, on this board, to show me proof that you can not buy a domain, that happens to be a trademark, but nothing is done with the domain except sitting there with NO ADS. I am NOT saying someone can buy the domain then pitch to the company.

                          Show me, ANY case that involves a domain name that hasn't been developed and is not being marketed in anyway, that is just sitting there with no ads and there is a lawsuit?

                          You can't.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                            You have a good point there. I'm not a Lawyer so I couldn't say.

                            So let me get this straight. You buy the domain and do nothing with it, nothing proactive and you earn nothing from it?...Cool. I can think of better ways to earn a living than that.

                            I also noticed you haven't responded to Jonathan Mizel yet (post #80). He had an interesting link to an article for you here. I'm sure this won't be applicable to you though.

                            As for caring about this, if you'd read what I said, I just don't want people new to this to get into trouble. In the meantime, I've sent an email to an internet lawyer to see if what you're doing is in fact a breach of trademark. If you won't ask one of your many family members, I'll find out myself.

                            In fact, I challenge anyone, on this board, to show me proof that you can not buy a domain, that happens to be a trademark, but nothing is done with the domain except sitting there with NO ADS. I am NOT saying someone can buy the domain then pitch to the company.
                            So your business model with this is just hit and hope really? You actually have to wait for someone to realise you have the domain and approach you? :rolleyes:
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                            • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
                              Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                              You have a good point there. I'm not a Lawyer so I couldn't say.

                              So let me get this straight. You buy the domain and do nothing with it, nothing proactive and you earn nothing from it?...Cool. I can think of better ways to earn a living than that.

                              I also noticed you haven't responded to Jonathan Mizel yet (post #80). He had an interesting link to an article for you here. I'm sure this won't be applicable to you though.

                              As for caring about this, if you'd read what I said, I just don't want people new to this to get into trouble. In the meantime, I've sent a email to an internet lawyer to see if what you're doing is in fact a breach of trademark. If you won't ask one of your many family members, I'll find out myself.



                              So your business model with this is just hit and hope really? You actually have to wait for someone to realise you have the domain and approach you? :rolleyes:
                              Post 80 has nothing to do with anything I have been saying. He's right, many domains have been seized. Many domains registered in the US and have anything to do with torrents, or advertising anything to do with illegal downloads, are seized pretty quickly.

                              This isn't an entire business model, just another way to make money. You're right, it is hit or miss, but an EMD that is a new trademark, they WILL approach you. A 5 dollar investment to make a few thousand is a pretty good deal don't you think?

                              I am proactive with other domains, such as, citynamehvac.com citynameoncology.com citynameroofingcompany.com. Not proactive with trademarked domains, unless it is something so broad, you can put up a basic site and be fine. More often than not, I'll just leave it be, and wait!
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                          • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
                            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                            In fact, I challenge anyone, on this board, to show me proof that you can not buy a domain, that happens to be a trademark, but nothing is done with the domain except sitting there with NO ADS. I am NOT saying someone can buy the domain then pitch to the company.

                            Show me, ANY case that involves a domain name that hasn't been developed and is not being marketed in anyway, that is just sitting there with no ads and there is a lawsuit?

                            You can't.
                            Before making challenges and conclusions you may want to research the issue or at least consult with an attorney experienced with these issues.

                            The legal "doctrine" is called passive holding. Yes. People registering domains and putting nothing on the domain, not marketing it, not having ads, not letting the domain resolve, etc., have been sued.

                            For example, here is concise analysis with reference to several lawsuits that you can further review: (Source: WIPO Overview of WIPO Panel Views on Selected UDRP Questions)
                            "3.2 Can there be use in bad faith when the domain name is not actively used and the domain name holder has taken no active steps to sell the domain name or contact the trademark holder? (Passive holding) Consensus view: The lack of active use of the domain name does not as such prevent a finding of bad faith. The panel must examine all the circumstances of the case to determine whether respondent is acting in bad faith. Examples of circumstances that can indicate bad faith include complainant having a well-known trademark, no response to the complaint, concealment of identity and the impossibility of conceiving a good faith use of the domain name. Panels may draw inferences about whether the domain name was used in bad faith given the circumstances surrounding registration, and vice versa.
                            Relevant decisions:
                            Telstra Corporation Limited v. Nuclear Marshmallows D2000-0003, Transfer
                            Jupiters Limited v. Aaron Hall D2000-0574,Transfer
                            Ladbroke Group Plc v. Sonoma International LDC D2002-0131 among others, Transfer
                            On the interpretation of paragraph 4(b)(iv) of the UDRP:
                            Global Media Resources SA v. Sexplanets aka SexPlanets Free Hosting D2001-1391, Denied"
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                            • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
                              Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

                              Before making challenges and conclusions you may want to research the issue or at least consult with an attorney experienced with these issues.

                              The legal "doctrine" is called passive holding. Yes. People registering domains and putting nothing on the domain, not marketing it, not having ads, not letting the domain resolve, etc., have been sued.

                              For example, here is concise analysis with reference to several lawsuits that you can further review: (Source: WIPO Overview of WIPO Panel Views on Selected UDRP Questions)
                              "3.2 Can there be use in bad faith when the domain name is not actively used and the domain name holder has taken no active steps to sell the domain name or contact the trademark holder? (Passive holding) Consensus view: The lack of active use of the domain name does not as such prevent a finding of bad faith. The panel must examine all the circumstances of the case to determine whether respondent is acting in bad faith. Examples of circumstances that can indicate bad faith include complainant having a well-known trademark, no response to the complaint, concealment of identity and the impossibility of conceiving a good faith use of the domain name. Panels may draw inferences about whether the domain name was used in bad faith given the circumstances surrounding registration, and vice versa.
                              Relevant decisions:
                              Telstra Corporation Limited v. Nuclear Marshmallows D2000-0003, Transfer
                              Jupiters Limited v. Aaron Hall D2000-0574,Transfer
                              Ladbroke Group Plc v. Sonoma International LDC D2002-0131 among others, Transfer
                              On the interpretation of paragraph 4(b)(iv) of the UDRP:
                              Global Media Resources SA v. Sexplanets aka SexPlanets Free Hosting D2001-1391, Denied"
                              I have researched, and that is a very good post, but like I previously said, common words, that happen to be trademarked are not something they can sue for.

                              Telstra-
                              (ii) the fact that the word <TELSTRA> appears to be an invented word, and as such is not one traders would legitimately choose unless seeking to create an impression of an association with the Complainant,

                              It is a made up word, it isn't a common word you use in everyday life. Another reason why there was a suit is because the person never responded to the complaint! That is stupid.

                              e Administrative Panel further finds that the Respondent has taken deliberate steps to ensure that its true identity cannot be determined and communication with it cannot be made.


                              Jupiters casino... another issue where the respondent, has never responded. Could have easily fought it if there was ever a response. If you look at the case, 3 out of the 4, without him/her being there, was found in the respondents favor!!

                              Ladbroke poker...
                              The Respondent has failed to file any Response in these proceedings.

                              Sexplanet(s) ... That one is really interesting... I'm surprised I never heard of that one before, but the complaint was denied. Very interesting though, and that goes to show you...responding is a very important aspect if you do ever have a WIPO issue.

                              Seriously though, if you have a domain they want, and sell it for a few grand, they will go for it instead of go through this hassle.

                              If it were me, and some corporation came, I would offer to sell it, very reasonably, and if they didn't go for it, I would hand it over, unless I really had a case. A business would probably be paying 15-20K minimum for this procedure. They would rather buy it out, don't you think?

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                              • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                                My good friend, iamnameless.

                                Now you have an internet Lawyer to argue with, you'll be happier no doubt, rather than me. I'm not trained in this, so seeing as you are (or not), here's someone to discuss it with.

                                As someone that comes from a family, solely made up of lawyers, judges and senators (apparently), I'm sure you'll enjoy trying to prove Brian wrong.

                                I will enjoy seeing how you prove a particularly competent lawyer, wrong, if indeed you can.

                                Warmest Regards.
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                                • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
                                  Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                                  My good friend, iamnameless.

                                  Now you have an internet Lawyer to argue with, you'll be happier no doubt, rather than me. I'm not trained in this, so seeing as you are (or not), here's someone to discuss it with.

                                  As someone that comes from a family, solely made up of lawyers, judges and senators (apparently), I'm sure you'll enjoy trying to prove Brian wrong.

                                  I will enjoy seeing how you prove a particularly competent lawyer, wrong, if indeed you can.

                                  Warmest Regards.
                                  One senator, and I never said solely, almost everyone in my family happens to be lawyers, thats all, two judges, a representative and a senator, I think I have a couple cousins that might be engineers, not sure... anyway, I'm not trying to prove him wrong. I don't understand why you are so obsessed with me? No offense, but it is kind of weird.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Jake Gray
                                    Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                                    One senator, and I never said solely, almost everyone in my family happens to be lawyers, thats all, two judges, a representative and a senator, I think I have a couple cousins that might be engineers, not sure... anyway, I'm not trying to prove him wrong. I don't understand why you are so obsessed with me? No offense, but it is kind of weird.
                                    Because you keep trying to make an INVALID point

                                    and...

                                    you don't care if you disrespect someone in the process.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                                    Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                                    One senator, and I never said solely, almost everyone in my family happens to be lawyers, thats all, two judges, a representative and a senator, I think I have a couple cousins that might be engineers, not sure... anyway, I'm not trying to prove him wrong. I don't understand why you are so obsessed with me? No offense, but it is kind of weird.
                                    I'm not obseesed with you at all chap.

                                    My gripe as I've said before, was I didn't want people new to this business being confused or in anyways influenced to go out and buy trademarked domains. As I also said, those of us with deeper pockets and more knowledge are free to take whatever risks they so choose.

                                    I asked Brian Kindsvater to come here and discuss this because I wanted to know the real facts as I myself am not a lawyer. He has done this and Brian, I'm very grateful to you.

                                    iAmNameLess. I don't intentionally pick on people and you have my apologies if you feel I've done that. I'm sure you have people's best interests at heart and I hope you can understand why I took this stance. This business is full of false hopes of instant riches and I simply don't want a newbie, with no knowledge on the matter, getting involved in something they've no idea about. At least now they can read this thread and see solid examples, facts and judge for themselves.

                                    There is another thread I commented on recently where a person has finally made his first few dollars on line. He has done this with a trademarked domain. The trademark is owned by Time Warner. I told him this may not be a good idea and his response was very blunt. He just wanted to make some cash and didn't care if he had to hand it all over to Time Warner. What frightened me was the amount of people with no apparent experience congratulating him and saying what a great idea it was (I'm not referring to you, you were not in the thread). It was after reading this thread I came here.

                                    Again my apologies if you feel I've picked on you, that wasn't my intention, my intention was to get to the root of this and find some solid facts, which I believe has been achieved in the end. Don't take anything I've said to heart, this has been a good and valid discussion, nothing more.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
                                      Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                                      I'm not obseesed with you at all chap.

                                      My gripe as I've said before, was I didn't want people new to this business being confused or in anyways influenced to go out and buy trademarked domains. As I also said, those of us with deeper pockets and more knowledge are free to take whatever risks they so choose.

                                      I asked Brian Kindsvater to come here and discuss this because I wanted to know the real facts as I myself am not a lawyer. He has done this and Brian, I'm very grateful to you.

                                      iAmNameLess. I don't intentionally pick on people and you have my apologies if you feel I've done that. I'm sure you have people's best interests at heart and I hope you can understand why I took this stance. This business is full of false hopes of instant riches and I simply don't want a newbie, with no knowledge on the matter, getting involved in something they've no idea about. At least now they can read this thread and see solid examples, facts and judge for themselves.

                                      There is another thread I commented on recently where a person has finally made his first few dollars on line. He has done this with a trademarked domain. The trademark is owned by Time Warner. I told him this may not be a good idea and his response was very blunt. He just wanted to make some cash and didn't care if he had to hand it all over to Time Warner. What frightened me was the amount of people with no apparent experience congratulating him and saying what a great idea it was (I'm not referring to you, you were not in the thread). It was after reading this thread I came here.

                                      Again my apologies if you feel I've picked on you, that wasn't my intention, my intention was to get to the root of this and find some solid facts, which I believe has been achieved in the end. Don't take anything I've said to heart, this has been a good and valid discussion, nothing more.

                                      I guess its time to hug it out LOL!

                                      Fair enough, and I understand your stance. I agree with you too... When it comes to something like this, someone new, with 0 experience, would be making a big mistake. I, in fact might be making a big mistake, but I think I could afford it if it were to slap me around a bit.

                                      While, I believe I would be okay in certain circumstances, there are a lot of ifs, and a lot of unclear grounds that someone new probably wouldn't be able to discern what is okay and what is not.

                                      I believe this subject, in general, is one of the most complicated issues in internet marketing. A common two word domain, branding issues, new product trademarks, you could have a domain for 5 years and coke might release a product with that name and you could be part of a massacre. No private registration... there are many areas you have to consider.

                                      Overall.. If someone new does come across this and is reading every post, I wouldn't recommend doing anything risque. If someone is interested in domain flipping, they should just pick a city, and occupations, register them and sell them. LOL... keep it simple.

                                      I have enjoyed this discussion.. while I'm very stubborn and will continue to do things my way, it does have me thinking about the possibilities of "what if"... or when... LOL.
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                              • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
                                Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                                Seriously though, if you have a domain they want, and sell it for a few grand, they will go for it instead of go through this hassle.

                                If it were me, and some corporation came, I would offer to sell it, very reasonably, and if they didn't go for it, I would hand it over, unless I really had a case. A business would probably be paying 15-20K minimum for this procedure. They would rather buy it out, don't you think?
                                No.

                                The problem with making an offer to sell for a few grand first, with a fallback of just giving it to them, is that this almost automatically sets up a "bad faith" finding where (1) you lose the domain in a UDRP lawsuit, and (2) are subject to paying up to $100,000 in statutory penalties in an ACPA lawsuit.

                                My law office is representing a Warrior right now where the trademark owner is going for the jugular. They would rather spend a lot, lot more than a "few grand" to try and get those statutory penalties.

                                Even though we won the UDRP lawsuit that does not prevent an ACPA lawsuit.

                                UDRP - domain name dispute action where registration of a domain can forcefully be changed to a trademark owner.

                                ACPA - federal cybersquatting lawsuit based on trademark infringement where damages can be awarded.
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                                • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
                                  Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

                                  No.

                                  The problem with making an offer to sell for a few grand first, with a fallback of just giving it to them, is that this almost automatically sets up a "bad faith" finding where (1) you lose the domain in a UDRP lawsuit, and (2) are subject to paying up to $100,000 in statutory penalties in an ACPA lawsuit.

                                  My law office is representing a Warrior right now where the trademark owner is going for the jugular. They would rather spend a lot, lot more than a "few grand" to try and get those statutory penalties.

                                  Even though we won the UDRP lawsuit that does not prevent an ACPA lawsuit.

                                  UDRP - domain name dispute action where registration of a domain can forcefully be changed to a trademark owner.

                                  ACPA - federal cybersquatting lawsuit based on trademark infringement where damages can be awarded.
                                  So in your opinion. If someone were to register a domain, that might be a trademark, but is two words, that are very common, would they have any kind of grounds for a lawsuit, if it were a non commercial site? Hell even if it was.

                                  For example....

                                  lawnsharp.com lets say they are a national chain of lawn care providers, and I had the domain, sharplawn.com

                                  Lets say I am NOT offering lawn care... but I am offering lawn chairs, and other decorative items. I am not trying to profit off of their national name, or try to claim any affiliation like those cases you provided. Do you think that it would really go that far?

                                  I think in that example, there IS a possibility, but based on the fact lawn, and sharp are both defined words that are not made up, there is less of a case.

                                  Now in the next example... We'll keep the same domain names. This time, I do nothing with the domain, I am just planning to build a site in the future and bought the domain in advance.

                                  Are you telling me that lawnsharp will be able to sue me, for parking the domain, with just a blank page with my number and email? Obviously if there were any complaints, I would also respond to the complaints instead of being found in default. I also wouldn't hide my information.

                                  Obviously you can't share details of the case with the client you are representing, but I assume the major thing he did wrong was have ads, or maybe the product name on the site and was profiting through that? You don't need to expand on that, if I'm wrong in my assumption just say that.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
                                    Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                                    if I'm wrong in my assumption just say that.
                                    You are incorrect. As I said, we have already won one lawsuit. The point was, you asked whether a company would rather do a cost benefit analysis and pay a few grand instead of pursuing litigation to get a domain, and my answer was no.

                                    I've had cases where, as a matter of principle, someone elected to spend $100k on a $15k case.

                                    It is extremely dangerous, in light of a trademark claim, to offer to sell the domain.

                                    Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                                    Are you telling me that [a trademark owner] will be able to sue me, for parking the domain, with just a blank page with my number and email?
                                    Yes. (See my prior post on the last page). I can't analyze specific domains or situations here. But that is why I tell IMLC members in the trademark domain section to immediately make a good-faith and legitimate use of domains. If a domain is only parked a "claim" that a proper use was intended is weak. Much better to show a legitimate use and, in the process, show why someone's trademark is not being used (as would be your goal in the lawn care example).

                                    From the trademark owner's perspective, if they only see their trademark in a domain name they may fear the worst. But if they see you have a legitimate use for the domain you may never hear from them.
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                                    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
                                      Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

                                      Much better to show a legitimate use and, in the process, show why someone's trademark is not being used (as would be your goal in the lawn care example).

                                      From the trademark owner's perspective, if they only see their trademark in a domain name they may fear the worst. But if they see you have a legitimate use for the domain you may never hear from them.
                                      So it is better to build out a site, than park it?

                                      Most of the cases I have seen were intentional misspellings of the domain, or to gain traffic from people thinking it was the trademarked company. I still don't see anything about a common, two word domain that is part or is a trademark. Just like facebook, not allowing face or book being in a domain of a social network... There can still be something face, and something book, out there without it infringing on the trademark, so what makes it different in this case?

                                      The whole point of this thread is about a common two words, that he has as a domain name, and a company released a product based on those two words. So, if he were to just park THAT, is that really a problem? (not being sarcastic or trying to stir **** up, I just want to know your opinion on that)

                                      I have never had problems with this, but have done it numerous times. I suppose all it takes it one suit though to insert my foot in my mouth sideways.
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                                      • Profile picture of the author davezan
                                        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                                        The whole point of this thread is about a common two words, that he has as a domain name, and a company released a product based on those two words.
                                        And one thing that large company will likely ask is why the OP registered that
                                        domain name in the first place, parking or not. Obviously the OP didn't do that
                                        just for kicks or act on some divine inspiration.

                                        If you think about it, it really depends on who you're potentially dealing with.
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                                    Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                                    For example....

                                    lawnsharp.com lets say they are a national chain of lawn care providers, and I had the domain, sharplawn.com

                                    Lets say I am NOT offering lawn care... but I am offering lawn chairs, and other decorative items. I am not trying to profit off of their national name, or try to claim any affiliation like those cases you provided. Do you think that it would really go that far?

                                    I think in that example, there IS a possibility, but based on the fact lawn, and sharp are both defined words that are not made up, there is less of a case.

                                    Now in the next example... We'll keep the same domain names. This time, I do nothing with the domain, I am just planning to build a site in the future and bought the domain in advance.

                                    Are you telling me that lawnsharp will be able to sue me, for parking the domain, with just a blank page with my number and email?

                                    iAmNameLess,

                                    I'm not an expert on these things, but I did work in this field (IP) for a long time, so let me see if I can shed some light on this for you.

                                    And again, this is not legal advice...

                                    but based on the fact lawn, and sharp are both defined words that are not made up, there is less of a case.
                                    You are correct in spirit, but herein lies the rub...

                                    Those two common words being placed together constitute an unusal usage of both words, taken as a whole. Therefore, the TM holder has a stronger case for protecting those words as a phrase, and derivatives, thereof. And, it is their obligation to protect their Trademark, as you know.

                                    Additionally, companies and corporations can file Trademarks protecting their product names after the fact. In the case you used as an example, they may have designs on expanding their scope, and may file a Trademark for LawnSharp (not SharpLawn) as it relates to other lawn related items.

                                    [Sidebar] Ironically, you chose a good example, because almost everyone wants their lawn to look sharp, and also perhaps their lawn furniture. So a natural extention of the LawnSharp brand could be into the furniture line, among others, as an example. [/Sidebar]

                                    Facebook, as an example, has filed Trademarks as late as October of last year for things they want to play around with. It's dang near a normal course of business for companies to expand their horizons, and hence the scope of their Trademarks.

                                    Bottom line...if someone with deep pockets has a willingness to do battle with you over a name or a Trademark you better be prepared.

                                    For your own edification, if I were you, I would seriously look into what are called 'Black Swan Events' for further clarification regarding things that can happen.

                                    ~Bill
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                  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
                    Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                    The one thing I've noticed about this thread is, despite several people of considerable note telling him/her otherwise, iAmNameLess is still peddling nonsense about breaching Trademarks.

                    What concerns me are the newbies that read his/her advice and go around buying Trademarked domains.
                    One thing I've also noticed is that the naysayers and the skeptics are the ones that have never done this themselves.

                    Like I've said in this thread, I've done it several times, meaning about 10. Typically if there's an issue, I'll receive a C&D. I contact the lawyer in the C&D and offer the domain to them. I've only ever once had them say no.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                      Originally Posted by Mike Grant View Post

                      One thing I've also noticed is that the naysayers and the skeptics are the ones that have never done this themselves.

                      Like I've said in this thread, I've done it several times, meaning about 10. Typically if there's an issue, I'll receive a C&D. I contact the lawyer in the C&D and offer the domain to them. I've only ever once had them say no.
                      Hi Mike.

                      So do you think it's advisable to buy domains with trademarks in them? I'm not sure I quite understand what you mean. You've had some trademarked domains, had some C&Ds and you handed them over?

                      I'm not a naysayer Mike. Years ago I was advised to do this, I lost out quite badly. That's why I don't recommend it. You can count on it, I don't comment on things I don't know about or get from a third party, if I do, I mention that.

                      I don't really care what anyone else does, or what risks they take. My comments to someone else here were based on telling people new to this that it's a good idea. He has a family full of judges, lawyers and state senators, or something. I'd just like one of them to come on here and tell me it's ok. That way I can safely screw the company that sued me many years ago for buying a trademarked domain and being one of their affiliates.

                      ...and I'm sure your naysayer and skeptic comment wasn't aimed at me, seeing as I'm not someone that hasn't done this and you couldn't possibly know this anyway.

                      ...You could also argue that the naysayers and skeptics are people that have lost money or a site they put a lot work into, by doing this, or knew someone that has lost out, by doing this.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
                        Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                        Hi Mike.

                        So do you think it's advisable to buy domains with trademarks in them? I'm not sure I quite understand what you mean. You've had some trademarked domains, had some C&Ds and you handed them over?

                        I'm not a naysayer Mike. Years ago I was advised to do this, I lost out quite badly. That's why I don't recommend it. You can count on it, I don't comment on things I don't know about or get from a third party, if I do I mention that.

                        I don't really care what anyone else does, or what risks they take. My comments to someone else here were based on telling people new to this that it's a good idea. He has a family full of judges, lawyers and state senators, or something. I'd just like one of them to come on here and tell me it's ok. That way I can safely screw the company that sued me many years ago for buying a trademarked domain and being one of their affiliates.

                        ...and I'm sure your naysayer and skeptic comment wasn't aimed at me, seeing as I'm not someone that hasn't done this.

                        ...You could also argue that the naysayers and skeptics are people that have lost money or a site they put a lot work into, by doing this, or knew someone that has lost out, by doing this.
                        I wouldn't advise it, but I also wouldn't shy away from it. There's risk in business, and this is just another example. The biggest difference between getting your butt handed to you by their lawyers would be not knowing when to hand over the domain. When I offer it to them, if they outright say no and do not counter my offer then I just take the site down and or give it to them. Not a big deal to lose $8, imo.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                          Originally Posted by Mike Grant View Post

                          I wouldn't advise it, but I also wouldn't shy away from it. There's risk in business, and this is just another example. The biggest difference between getting your butt handed to you by their lawyers would be not knowing when to hand over the domain. When I offer it to them, if they outright say no and do not counter my offer then I just take the site down and or give it to them. Not a big deal to lose $8, imo.
                          That was my point really with the other chap. There are a lot of newbies here and I didn't think it would be good advice for them.

                          For the likes of you and me, with deeper (though not deep enough) pockets and a few more years behind us, we can take risks, we know what we're getting into and the potential consequences.

                          Someone (a newbie) reading that it's fine to do it and then reading "social proof" that the person saying it's fine, has an entire family of lawyers and judges, may think it's the way forward and either waste their time or worse.

                          That's all I mean't. What you do is up to you Mike, you know what you're doing, some people don't and shouldn't be given blanket advice that it's fine to do (which you haven't but someone else has)
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                        • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
                          Originally Posted by Mike Grant View Post

                          I wouldn't advise it, but I also wouldn't shy away from it. There's risk in business, and this is just another example. The biggest difference between getting your butt handed to you by their lawyers would be not knowing when to hand over the domain. When I offer it to them, if they outright say no and do not counter my offer then I just take the site down and or give it to them. Not a big deal to lose $8, imo.
                          The only problems I have ever seen anyone really have, is when they have the trademark domain, that is trying to ride it out to profit off it. If you have a parked domain, there really is not much risk.

                          People that have domains like NBAclips.com, not a good idea. They will in fact get dealt with!

                          Have you ever had any problems when you just park a domain, no ads or anything? I never have...
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                          • Profile picture of the author Jake Gray
                            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                            is when they have the trademark domain, that is trying to ride it out to profit off it.
                            What else do you plan to do with it?

                            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                            If you have a parked domain, there really is not much risk.
                            Again... You have no idea what you're talking about.

                            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                            People that have domains like NBAclips.com, not a good idea. They will in fact get dealt with!
                            lol
                            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                            Have you ever had any problems when you just park a domain, no ads or anything? I never have.. .
                            Just keep hitting the pinata until it explodes.

                            As you can see from your own post, you have no idea about the legal-side.

                            Save your breathe for someone who cares about ones opinion on this topic.
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                            • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
                              Originally Posted by Jake Gray View Post

                              What else do you plan to do with it?



                              Again... You have no idea what you're talking about.



                              lol


                              Just keep hitting the pinata until it explodes.

                              As you can see from your own post, you have no idea about the legal-side.

                              Save your breathe for someone who cares about ones opinion on this topic.
                              LOL, show me proof. I have DONE THIS! Have you? I have EXPERIENCE with this...

                              Not sure what you quoting certain areas and responding with an lol, and saying I have no idea what I'm talking about has any importance. I have actual experience, and I don't believe you have any idea what YOU are talking about.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Jake Gray
                                Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                                I have EXPERIENCE with this...
                                Experience shouldn't be legal advice...

                                Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                                I have actual experience, and I don't believe you have any idea what YOU are talking about.
                                This thread is intended for the serious.
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      • Profile picture of the author davezan
        Originally Posted by Texas_Guns View Post

        100% positive that it is not trademarked.
        FYI, a trademark doesn't have to be registered in order to exist.

        If that happened to me, I'd wait for them to contact me and just take it from
        there. But...I'd be ready to give it to them if they're ready to force the issue.

        As a few intimated, some might hold you liable while others might buy it from
        you or work out a mutually-acceptable and commercial arrangement. It really
        depends on who you're dealing with.

        Perhaps a Google search or so can give you clues as to how that business will
        handle such things. Hope for the best, yet expect the worst.

        Good luck.
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  • Profile picture of the author KatyaSenina
    Makes me wonder why you snagged the domain name in the first place?

    Why would you bother doing SEO. Ok let's say it ranks and thousands will be searching for it... What will the website lead prospects to anyway?:confused:

    Of course you can always wait till they contact you and ask them for cash. But that's of course if you're 100% sure the brand isn't trademarked otherwise you've got yourself a lawsuit right there. Be sure to check this.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rich Struck
    Forget it.
    Signature

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    • Profile picture of the author Texas_Guns
      [DELETED]
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  • Profile picture of the author 995sunglasses
    You can trademark something, but if you don't do it right it doesn't mean anything.

    There are people that buy domain names thinking they will be worth something and the companies will contact them with an offer. Buying a domain name before a company does isn't scummy, it's called "smarts". There was a guy in Michigan that bought a communications domain name and wound up making under a million dollars on it because one of the large companies wanted it so they made him an offer and he took it.

    If I know a product is being released and I buy a domain name on it, you have to be working on the inside in order to know this information I assume, and unless your bound by a contract with that company then it's legal to do.
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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    People are so paranoid about lawsuits. I have one every month, and haven't lost! LOL. You can own a domain name, even if it has a trademark. You can't trademark a word...if it is a domain just sitting there, hold on to it, it is ridiculous to say you will have a lawsuit on your hands. You can have it parked... now, you can't compete with them and use it to talk bad about the product, or link to their competitors. You CAN park the domain, or put a basic page up with your email, and not have to worry about anything, except the price for when they contact you.
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    • Profile picture of the author Texas_Guns
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      People are so paranoid about lawsuits. I have one every month, and haven't lost! LOL. You can own a domain name, even if it has a trademark. You can't trademark a word...if it is a domain just sitting there, hold on to it, it is ridiculous to say you will have a lawsuit on your hands. You can have it parked... now, you can't compete with them and use it to talk bad about the product, or link to their competitors. You CAN park the domain, or put a basic page up with your email, and not have to worry about anything, except the price for when they contact you.
      A lawsuit every month? Either you are doing something that
      you should be doing - or you are doing something that others
      had wished they were doing!
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      • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
        Originally Posted by Texas_Guns View Post

        A lawsuit every month? Either you are doing something that
        you should be doing - or you are doing something that others
        had wished they were doing!
        Eh... lots of random things. 99% is what I file, to collect money that is owed. I have one case where I was being sued for 4,500... because the client issued an illegal chargeback 3 months after a service was given, I fought the chargeback and won. Filed a claim with the attorney general of his state for chargeback fraud, and now he is attempting to collect for emotional damages.

        You wouldn't believe some of the people I have dealt with.

        I have a great relationship with a few law firms, my family consists of all lawyers, a couple judges and a state senator in Michigan, so I know how useful the law can be! I'm not going to waste my time chasing people down, or making threats, I just have it handled legally, and they pay my legal fees! No worries there!

        One time, I did have an issue with a local news channel, but they were just making threats, they gave in and bought the domain for quite a bit of money!
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      People are so paranoid about lawsuits. I have one every month, and haven't lost! LOL.
      It's a little different when you're the one doing the suing, as you confirmed in another post. You might feel differently if you were getting sued once a month instead of the other way around. Basically, without meaning to, you've shown why people are paranoid about getting sued.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      People are so paranoid about lawsuits. I have one every month, and haven't lost! LOL. You can own a domain name, even if it has a trademark. You can't trademark a word...if it is a domain just sitting there, hold on to it, it is ridiculous to say you will have a lawsuit on your hands. You can have it parked... now, you can't compete with them and use it to talk bad about the product, or link to their competitors. You CAN park the domain, or put a basic page up with your email, and not have to worry about anything, except the price for when they contact you.
      You're right - a lot will depend on how you use the domain, and in addition to that researching the corporation in question gives you some background history as to whether they're litigation happy, or not.
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  • Profile picture of the author Texas_Guns
    Floyd, thanks for the PM. Apology accepted.

    995subglasses... 100% agreed. I have been at this
    game since 1999, so believe me I am careful.
    Heck, I received my fair share of letters over the
    years to transfer a domain name or the wonderful
    emails from eBay many years ago to just let the
    domain names I purchased expire.

    The rewards are high for a $10 risk. The story
    you mention above is one that has happened
    thousands of times over the years.

    Maybe I'm weird, but buying a few domain names
    during my 'wind down time' at night is what I like
    to do - and when I find a potential winner like this
    that *could* have a five or six-figure payday, I
    get excited.

    I just sold about 30 domain names the other day.
    Not to plug one of my WSO's, but I talk about one
    of the strategies I use that I don't see anyone else
    doing.

    I'm far from a full-time domainer - I'm a full-time
    marketer... but I've always had a love for domains...
    or anything you can buy for $10 and sell for thousands
    for that matter LOL!
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  • Profile picture of the author Texas_Guns
    You always have to do the research. In fact,
    did you know that the happy birthday song is
    owned by Time Warner?

    Boing Boing: Help rat on people who sing Happy Birthday!

    I always send them my $1.82 check each time
    that I sing it to my friends... do you?
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  • Profile picture of the author sparkman
    Here's the kicker...if you registered the domain before they announced they were going to release a product, and they didn't have the foresight to register the domain before you...it's their bad. However, if you registered a domain that could reasonably be thought to have a link with the announced product after they announced, that is called mala-fide aka...bad faith on your part.

    Regardless as to whether or not you contact them to sell the domain (I would suggest against it), they'll probably come after it. And as someone who speaks from personal experience in this type of stuff...it's a huge time and dollar suck. You're looking at spending at least $4500 just to have a domain hearing through WIPO or another arbitration company.

    If you want some personal inside information on this, send me a PM and I'll hook you up, but man...be careful. There are some VERY SPECIFIC things you can and can't do.
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      [quote=Will Perkins;3596110][/B]



      Originally Posted by sparkman View Post

      Here's the kicker...if you registered the domain before they announced they were going to release a product, and they didn't have the foresight to register the domain before you...it's their bad. However, if you registered a domain that could reasonably be thought to have a link with the announced product after they announced, that is called mala-fide aka...bad faith on your part.

      Regardless as to whether or not you contact them to sell the domain (I would suggest against it), they'll probably come after it. And as someone who speaks from personal experience in this type of stuff...it's a huge time and dollar suck. You're looking at spending at least $4500 just to have a domain hearing through WIPO or another arbitration company.

      If you want some personal inside information on this, send me a PM and I'll hook you up, but man...be careful. There are some VERY SPECIFIC things you can and can't do.
      Definitely do NOT contact them. You're right about that. I don't even recommend putting up a website for it.... Just park the thing, and they can't do anything about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author SocialBlasting
    I've been in this exact situation and it worked out in my favor. So here's the deal:
    If the name is not trademarked, you're fine. Don't get scared and just "forget it". Depending on the company, they might try to scare you into giving the domain up. Don't do it. They will pay you for it if you stand your ground due to the fact that it would cost them more to try and sue you. Be just as strong with your words as them, because they aren't internet marketers, they're a company who happens to utilize the internet as a way of marketing. Trust that they would rather give you a couple thousand dollars for the domain.

    Im not saying this is some blueprint that will work for your situation, but it did for mine (the domain was a seafood/fresh/ocean type name). It also wouldn't hurt to throw up a wordpress blog related to the domain name that has nothing to do with their product.

    I've been threatened to get sued by plenty of people/companies even to the point where I get letters personally delivered to the door etc and let me tell you, I've never been sued and never had it not work out in my favor. Just don't back down until you absolutely have to.
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  • Profile picture of the author RichardDean
    Simple
    I would backorder the domain hire a hit man to take you out, wait to it expires then it is mine.

    Or

    Hack you and transfer the name to myself, then hire someone on fiverr to make me a fake statement saying I bought it.

    Just the two easy ways off the top of my head...

    I could have lawyers and PI's shove so much up your asre that you will pay me to take the name off your hands.

    Hope that helps

    Richard
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

      I hope the lawyers in your family aren't giving you that nonsensical advice. Fox could easily sue you. Now, winning is a different story, but there is zero doubt that they could sue you over it, and last I checked, most lawyers don't work for free.
      And I can sue you for hurting my feelings. LOL. Fox wouldn't win. Having a parked domain, they could not sue over and win.

      Originally Posted by Black Hat Cat View Post

      It's a little different when you're the one doing the suing, as you confirmed in another post. You might feel differently if you were getting sued once a month instead of the other way around. Basically, without meaning to, you've shown why people are paranoid about getting sued.
      Well, if people pay up when they get a service, there is nothing to worry about! But in reality, if you buy a domain name, and it is just parked, there are no grounds for them to sue you, and you lose without your constitution rights being violated.

      Originally Posted by Sparklesperson View Post

      Ford Motor Company, which owns Jaguar, sued a child who had a website that talked about jaguars.. the furry kind. Trust me, they can sue you for trademark infringement...
      I don't see such a case... That would not be trademark infringement. That is unconstitutional, and the retaliation could be so huge it would bankrupt them. Show proof of that case, I think you just heard from someone else who is full of ****.

      If they had an ad for jaguar cars, or if they somehow used the logo, then it is copyright infringement.

      Guys... this isn't complicated, it isn't hard to understand. If you buy venus.com venus williams can't sue you over it. If you buy mercury.com you can't be sued over it, just because it is a car, doesn't mean the word is trademarked. You just can't talk about the product, or have any pictures, or promote to affiliates. You can talk about the planet and use information about the planet, but not the car.

      If you have a parked domain... nothing can happen, UNLESS you talk to THEM and pitch them the domain. THAT is something you can't do.

      You can park all "trademarked" domains you want, and no company would even attempt to sue you. I had the domain STLnews. Saint Louis News, and received offers from all the local news stations. Now having a domain that would have been, STLnewschannel4.com then it is obvious what I was doing, and could very well lose.

      If you have a domain that is, buyproductname.com then you can lose. If you have a domain that is trademarked but there is other information, for example, mercury.com if I made it about the planet mercury, Buick would not be able to sue me over it.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Texas_Guns View Post

    There is no way that this name is trademarked because
    I found a couple of lesser known companies/products
    that also use this name.
    1. If those companies or products are not in the same industry, the tradmark may still be held in another business area.

    2. If they ARE in the same industry, the large company may be in legal negotiations with those lesser-known companies to acquire exclusive trademark rights.

    3. If the large company WANTS the trademark, the way trademark works is that they are REQUIRED to drop on you liike a tonne of bricks and demand you give them the domain.

    This is a Bad Idea. Contact the company and offer to GIVE them the domain.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
    For someone who registers domains with trademarks in them, and even puts up information about said trademark, I've never had an issue. In fact, I typically sell the domain to the company for about $1,000. Them buying the domain from me at that price is cheaper and faster than sending their lawyers after me, proceedings, etc.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sue McDonald
    Obviously you has in mind a way to make money from this. That is the way I see it. You are hoping that the company will offer you a lot of money.
    I also think it could be trademarked and it will be useless to you. However saying that if it is not trademarked and they want that name you many make money.
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  • Profile picture of the author christopher jon
    mythical dirt devil fascination in new mexico outside of area 51.
    Correction, Area 51 is in Nevada. North of Las Vegas.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
    So, what is this domain name? You already own
    it so what's the harm in revealing it?

    Tsnyder
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    If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan Mizel
    Actually, it's not a lawsuit you have to be worried about, at least with regard to the domain name. The dispute process is fairly established, and is called a UDRP (Uniform Domain-Name Dispute-Resolution Policy - Uniform Domain-Name Dispute-Resolution Policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

    There's no courtroom drama, but rather an appointed group from ICANN who decide whether or not you get to keep the name. They often rule in favor of big corporations, and quite a number of cases settle with the domain holder turning the name over voluntarily before the hearing because of that, as well as the high fees ($2k - $3k).

    Once they win the UDRP, *then* they file a lawsuit against you, and since it's a civil matter and the burden of proof is low, they use the evidence from the UDRP hearing to literally bury you in court and extract a judgement, which always includes legal fees. Their reasoning is that the official body in charge of the matter (ICANN) said you were wrong, and to a judge who may be new to Domain law, they usually agree.

    If it's not a TM, you are probably fine, but you may still need to defend yourself, which aint cheap.

    What to do with the name? Park it and make damn sure none of the ads on the page are for the company or it's affiliates. Famous domainer Frank Schilling lost a UDRP for the very generic ChiliiBeans.com a few years ago (Frank Schilling Loses loses generic name on aweful UDRP decision).

    It's worth noting that usage, including how you park or develop, have a lot to do with the way ICANN will see you.

    Careful.
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    • Profile picture of the author noble
      Most intelligent response here Johnathan. I saw a lot of misinformation in this thread. If you're wondering YouTube did a big crackdown I think about two years ago, don't remember exactly, on a crapton of domains. You will lose your domain and if you don't give it up before it escalates you will pay their legal fees as well.

      Of course there's always the chance that they don't have the motivation to pursue you.

      Originally Posted by Jonathan Mizel View Post

      Actually, it's not a lawsuit you have to be worried about, at least with regard to the domain name. The dispute process is fairly established, and is called a UDRP (Uniform Domain-Name Dispute-Resolution Policy - Uniform Domain-Name Dispute-Resolution Policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

      There's no courtroom drama, but rather an appointed group from ICANN who decide whether or not you get to keep the name. They often rule in favor of big corporations, and quite a number of cases settle with the domain holder turning the name over voluntarily before the hearing because of that, as well as the high fees ($2k - $3k).

      Once they win the UDRP, *then* they file a lawsuit against you, and since it's a civil matter and the burden of proof is low, they use the evidence from the UDRP hearing to literally bury you in court and extract a judgement, which always includes legal fees. Their reasoning is that the official body in charge of the matter (ICANN) said you were wrong, and to a judge who may be new to Domain law, they usually agree.

      If it's not a TM, you are probably fine, but you may still need to defend yourself, which aint cheap.

      What to do with the name? Park it and make damn sure none of the ads on the page are for the company or it's affiliates. Famous domainer Frank Schilling lost a UDRP for the very generic ChiliiBeans.com a few years ago (Frank Schilling Loses loses generic name on aweful UDRP decision).

      It's worth noting that usage, including how you park or develop, have a lot to do with the way ICANN will see you.

      Careful.
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  • Profile picture of the author LauraJames
    Be careful. Really careful.
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  • Profile picture of the author KatyaSenina
    Man, this thread is giving me a headache. Meaning, at least you can sleep at night, if you stay away from trademarked stuff. I think I would freak out if I was in OP's position.
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    • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
      Originally Posted by KatyaSenina View Post

      Man, this thread is giving me a headache. Meaning, at least you can sleep at night, if you stay away from trademarked stuff. I think I would freak out if I was in OP's position.
      Yes, unless you have very deep pocket, don't mind the legal
      hassles, and... I guess enjoy the fights, I'd wouldn't go anywhere
      near anyones trademark.

      Any you'd be surprised at what can be trademarked.

      I once did an interview for a friend who frequently ran
      specials on his site. He used the term "today's special offer"
      on his page... I think it was a banner, and I received a0
      "cease and desist" letter from a popular television shopping
      network's lawyers because they saw their trademarked term
      on the page and mistakenly thought it was mine.

      I thought it was funny, and I do enjoy competitions, I just
      don't relish wasting a lot of time sitting in court fighting a
      losing battle

      Willie
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Grant
    So, basically it comes down to this:

    Is it worth haggling with the company, if they come wanting the domain, to sell the domain for a profit, in my case an average of $1k? Is an $8 investment worth going for to return possibly several hundred dollars back?

    You're going to receive a nice little letter from the company before any UDRP process begins. This is when you choose to either forfeit the domain, or try to haggle first. If the haggling doesn't work, forfeit the domain prior to UDRP proceedings.
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    • Profile picture of the author Andrew Skelly
      Register, register, register...I have been in the situation where i owned the domain but others owned the trademark.

      Step 1. You receive Cease and desist order

      Step.2 You call their lawyer and say..."Let's work this out for the benefit of both Parties."

      Step 3. You walk away with $3K - $8K because that's how much it would have costed them to get it from you anyways in fees and aggravation.

      ...Or you can just be a nice guy and buy it for them (I've done that too)

      You Decide.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Legal issues aside...

    How do you feel about deliberately capitalizing on someone else's honest mistake to line your own pockets?

    It's different if you just register the domain and someone wants to buy it off you. But you've admitted you have every intention of screwing the company over for your own personal gain.

    Legally, you may be okay - I can't comment on that as I'm not a lawyer.

    But I do believe (in a roundabout way) in Karma, and if you make your living deliberately screwing other people over, it WILL come back to bite you.

    So, if it were me, I wouldn't have registered it in the first place. Some people would call that leaving money on the table.

    I call it being able to look at myself in the mirror.

    -Daniel
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    • Profile picture of the author sparkman
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post


      But I do believe (in a roundabout way) in Karma, and if you make your living deliberately screwing other people over, it WILL come back to bite you.

      -Daniel

      Daniel makes a really good point.

      In a case like this where someone is or may be making money by being legally right, but socially or ethically "challenged", it's too bad that the same amount of time isn't being used on creating value for people. It's kind of like those patent troll companies that have some intellectual property, but they keep it to themselves until other entities create value and bring some great services to people, then the troll pops up years later and says "AHA, I caught you sleeping...now pay me!"

      Our world would be a much better (and wealthier) place if everyone would work on creating things and help people by offering those things of value rather than ankle biting...legal or not.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tim3
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      Legal issues aside...

      How do you feel about deliberately capitalizing on someone else's honest mistake to line your own pockets?

      It's different if you just register the domain and someone wants to buy it off you. But you've admitted you have every intention of screwing the company over for your own personal gain.

      Legally, you may be okay - I can't comment on that as I'm not a lawyer.

      But I do believe (in a roundabout way) in Karma, and if you make your living deliberately screwing other people over, it WILL come back to bite you.

      So, if it were me, I wouldn't have registered it in the first place. Some people would call that leaving money on the table.

      I call it being able to look at myself in the mirror.

      -Daniel



      That's a very honourable answer Daniel, if there were more people like you the world would be a better place, but I think a lot of people, especially those who were a bit skint, would not think twice at the thought of making a tidy sum for 30 seconds work and £7.47
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan Mizel
    There are many shades of gray here, from deliberate trademark infringement of a well known brand down to a common phrase that may only be trademarked within a certain context.

    And many people make money with these names, and park them and put up sites and blogs and Amazon stores and Adsense and forward them to lead gen offers and all sorts of other stuff, even sell them to the trademark holder.

    A majority of the time, the domain owner will not get a cease and desist or anything at all because the company doesn't realize their Mark is being compromised. In other words, you aren't likely to get caught, and if you do, you can always play hardball or just give up he name.

    But some companies are *very* active about protecting their trademarks and dictating how they are used, and regularly search for violations, even picking specific fights. When a company's legal team tells the CEO that their trademarks are being violated online, the CEO tells them to "get the *******s."

    I'm not saying this isn't a way to make money, just that it's not a scalable business with long-term potential.

    Jonathan

    PS: Remember that now the Department of Homeland Security can also "seize" your domain under the new anti-counterfeit law. It's not much of a stretch to see that applying to people with "counterfeit" trademarks.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
      Originally Posted by Jonathan Mizel View Post

      There are many shades of gray here, from deliberate trademark infringement of a well known brand down to a common phrase that may only be trademarked within a certain context.

      And many people make money with these names, and park them and put up sites and blogs and Amazon stores and Adsense and forward them to lead gen offers and all sorts of other stuff, even sell them to the trademark holder.

      A majority of the time, the domain owner will not get a cease and desist or anything at all because the company doesn't realize their Mark is being compromised. In other words, you aren't likely to get caught, and if you do, you can always play hardball or just give up he name.

      But some companies are *very* active about protecting their trademarks and dictating how they are used, and regularly search for violations, even picking specific fights. When a company's legal team tells the CEO that their trademarks are being violated online, the CEO tells them to "get the *******s."

      I'm not saying this isn't a way to make money, just that it's not a scalable business with long-term potential.

      Jonathan

      PS: Remember that now the Department of Homeland Security can also "seize" your domain under the new anti-counterfeit law. It's not much of a stretch to see that applying to people with "counterfeit" trademarks.
      My apologies if this has already been brought up and I missed it...and this is not legal advice.

      "Intent" means a lot in a situation like this.

      If you come on the internet and say something along these lines...

      Somebody forgot to tell someone in their marketing/web
      department to register the domain name for their new
      product that will be launching nationwide this spring/summer.

      I just happened to see an article snippet of some news
      that was posted earlier today and when I saw the name
      of their new product, I thought... "I wonder if the .com
      is available?"

      I was quite shocked that it was to say the least. I quickly
      did some research and found that I may have stuck a
      little gold. Their main product has over 200,000 [exact]
      searches per month.

      I just snagged the domain name.
      You've pretty much laid out a case for the other party.

      Google indexes and caches these threads, and the atty's for the plaintiff if you are sued will require a deposition under oath that could easily uncover this thread during the 'discovery' phase.

      Just food for thought...

      ~Bill
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      • Profile picture of the author Torreylee
        Hire an attorney to trademark it and you will be JUST FINE, don't listen to all the haters and nay-sayers, CONGRATS!!! One for the little guy!!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
    Its called cybersquatting and you just lost the money you spent on the domain name. They will make you transfer the name to them or you get sued.
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  • Profile picture of the author joymarino
    wish you the best of luck with it, whatever happens!
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  • Profile picture of the author LastWarrior
    Originally Posted by Texas_Guns View Post

    OOPS!

    I just snagged the domain name.

    So... what should I do with the domain?

    Sit on it and know that they will be contacting
    me at some point soon with an offer?
    I once saw a company register a generic-type
    domain for their business. However, they only
    registered the .net version and not the .com.
    The .com was available, so I registered it.

    I put up a Domain For Sale site using the domain
    name and listed several things that could be done
    with the domain.

    I had no offers.

    But at around the 22nd month of owning the
    domain, guess who comes knocking at my eMail
    expressing to pay my asking price for the domain?

    LastWarrior

    P.S. "Here's an idea: Create a simple site selling
    the domain and have listed the various things that
    could be done with the site. Then contact them and
    ask if they are interested in buying. Offer it to them
    lower than your asking price at the domain."
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    • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
      Maybe I am missing something here...
      but how are domain services able to sell a domain name that is supposedly trademarked in the first place?
      Wouldn't the burden of blame be on them?

      If I was selling counterfeit watches out of a car trunk...you think the cops and the judge would be arresting the buyers?

      A lot of what is being said here is conjecture at best.
      Even if you are a lawyer, it doesn't mean much.
      A judge and/or jury has the final say.
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      Originally Posted by LastWarrior View Post


      P.S. "Here's an idea: Create a simple site selling
      the domain and have listed the various things that
      could be done with the site. Then contact them and
      ask if they are interested in buying. Offer it to them
      lower than your asking price at the domain."
      That might work for some, but I wouldn't really do that. I would put up a blank page with your email listed, thats all. If they know right off the bat you're interested in selling it, then you are more likely to have legal issues. I would also never contact them.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Really? Seems at ends with the link that was posted.

    Richard actually posted a precedent and backed his post up with, y'know, facts.

    All you've done is rant and rave about how you're right and everyone else is wrong.

    Instead of going on a tirade, maybe you should link to some precedents or the actual letter of the law, instead of acting like a spoiled five year old.

    -Daniel

    P.S. Should I listen to the guy who acts professional... shows courtesy... and actually posts a link PROVING what he's saying?

    Or some internet troll who acts like he's twelve years old and won't even put his real name to his posts?

    Decisions, decisions...
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    • Profile picture of the author Jake Gray
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post


      P.S. Should I listen to the guy who acts professional... shows courtesy... and actually posts a link PROVING what he's saying?

      Or some internet troll who acts like he's twelve years old and won't even put his real name to his posts?

      Decisions, decisions...
      Daniel,

      Don't expect too much from this forum.

      Jake Gray
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      Really? Seems at ends with the link that was posted.

      Richard actually posted a precedent and backed his post up with, y'know, facts.

      All you've done is rant and rave about how you're right and everyone else is wrong.

      Instead of going on a tirade, maybe you should link to some precedents or the actual letter of the law, instead of acting like a spoiled five year old.

      -Daniel

      P.S. Should I listen to the guy who acts professional... shows courtesy... and actually posts a link PROVING what he's saying?

      Or some internet troll who acts like he's twelve years old and won't even put his real name to his posts?

      Decisions, decisions...
      Honestly, I don't care who you listen to... at the end of the day, what anyone HERE thinks of me, is not an issue. I'll continue to make my money.

      No link that has been posted, means anything to what I am saying. I have never once in this thread said ANYTHING to buy a domain with a product model number, and profit off of the company itself. If you read what I have been saying, you will realize that.

      The truth is, if you buy a domain and it happens to be a trademark, you are not legally responsible, if you are parking the domain!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no case there. How can anyone even argue that?
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan Mizel
    The truth is, if you buy a domain and it happens to be a trademark, you are not legally responsible, if you are parking the domain!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no case there. How can anyone even argue that?
    This is stupid advice, and dead wrong.

    Have you not been reading this thread? Do you not understand how many names have been lost in WIPO disputes because the name was parked? Do you even know what WIPO is?

    Understand that domains are not "owned" but licensed through your registrar by ICANN and they can take the name away from you whenever they want. Happens all the time and it's about to get much more common: WIPO To Enter The Domain Seizure/Take Down Business? | The Domains

    And don't forget over 80,000 domains have already been seized by Homeland Security. Don't know how tough you are, but I wouldn't mess around with those guys.

    Be very careful with this stuff. Things are changing quickly in the Intellectual Property game, and corporate interests are coming out swinging because they are sick and tired of dealing with this crap.
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    • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
      Originally Posted by Jonathan Mizel View Post

      This is stupid advice, and dead wrong.

      Have you not been reading this thread? Do you not understand how many names have been lost in WIPO disputes because the name was parked? Do you even know what WIPO is?

      Understand that domains are not "owned" but licensed through your registrar by ICANN and they can take the name away from you whenever they want. Happens all the time and it's about to get much more common: WIPO To Enter The Domain Seizure/Take Down Business? | The Domains

      And don't forget over 80,000 domains have already been seized by Homeland Security. Don't know how tough you are, but I wouldn't mess around with those guys.

      Be very careful with this stuff. Things are changing quickly in the Intellectual Property game, and corporate interests are coming out swinging because they are sick and tired of dealing with this crap.

      J.Mizel, I know you are a very experienced marketer.

      So perhaps you can answer my question...if you would be so kind.


      How can the registrars rent out domain names if they are trademarked?
      Why isn't the "burden" of blame on them?

      If they are so highly regulated, why isn't it stopped at their end.

      Seems like a lot of naive people are takin it in the shorts because of ambiguity.


      Jim
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      • Profile picture of the author Jonathan Mizel
        Registrars are not held accountable since there's no way they could possibly prevent all conceivable TMs from being registered. Even if there were some sort of keyword match filter, TM cases usually come down to "softer" issues (like intent, usage, knowledge, etc.) in addition to the actual words in the domain.

        Besides, they would rather the names get registered and they get the money, since they get to keep it if the name is later seized or taken down.

        Anyway, enough commentary. Doesn't anyone have any real work to do? Get to it!
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        • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
          Originally Posted by Jonathan Mizel View Post

          Registrars are not held accountable since there's no way they could possibly prevent all conceivable TMs from being registered. Even if there were some sort of keyword match filter, TM cases usually come down to "softer" issues (like intent, usage, knowledge, etc.) in addition to the actual words in the domain.

          Besides, they would rather the names get registered and they get the money, since they get to keep it if the name is later seized or taken down.

          Anyway, enough commentary. Doesn't anyone have any real work to do? Get to it!

          I would just thank you, but I'm out for today...so thanks for answering.
          Makes sense..I guess...
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      • Profile picture of the author davezan
        Originally Posted by Roaddog View Post

        How can the registrars rent out domain names if they are trademarked?
        Why isn't the "burden" of blame on them?
        Here's why:

        United States Code: Title 15,1125. False designations of origin, false descriptions, and dilution forbidden | LII / Legal Information Institute

        (ii) The domain name registrar or registry or other domain name authority shall not be liable for injunctive or monetary relief under this paragraph except in the case of bad faith or reckless disregard, which includes a willful failure to comply with any such court order.
        Of course, you could try holding car manufacturers liable for selling cars used
        to rob banks, gun dealers for selling guns to shoot, etc., even though they're
        not aware what you intend to do with them.

        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

        That is intentional, and obvious bad faith. Making money off parked domains that have ads to those sites.
        Yeah. And I posted that as a response to your blanket statement...in bold.

        (Alright, alright...back to work...)
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        • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
          Originally Posted by davezan View Post

          Here's why:

          United States Code: Title 15,1125. False designations of origin, false descriptions, and dilution forbidden | LII / Legal Information Institute



          Of course, you could try holding car manufacturers liable for selling cars used
          to rob banks, gun dealers for selling guns to shoot, etc., even though they're
          not aware what you intend to do with them.
          Like I said I am out of thanks, but I am nothing if not polite, to people who take their time for me...so Thanks


          The car analogy doesn't work for me..they are not selling me a car that is supposedly someone else's already.

          But between you and Mr. Mizel I see what a headache it would be for the poor darlins.



          Jim
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        • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
          Originally Posted by davezan View Post


          Yeah. And I posted that as a response to your blanket statement...in bold.

          (Alright, alright...back to work...)
          I understand that, but what I said, in bold, isn't argued by the links you posted. The cases that you linked to, are all people who were profiting off of those companies, through ads, traffic, etc.

          A parked domain, with no ads, is not something that can be disputed. There is no "bad faith" if it isn't being used, and you aren't contacting the corporation trying to get a certain amount of money for it.

          I am not saying, that you can use all trademarked domains, and get away with it. Half the time you may be able to if it is something completely different, however, if you are trying to profit off of the company who owns the trademark, you are in trouble. You can park a domain and make sure there are no ads whatsoever, and let them contact you and be fine.

          So what I am saying... a parked domain with no ads, no content, no links to anywhere, is okay to have. Just don't go contacting their corporate office trying to pitch to them.
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          • Profile picture of the author davezan
            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

            I understand that, but what I said, in bold, isn't argued by the links you posted. The cases that you linked to, are all people who were profiting off of those companies, through ads, traffic, etc.

            A parked domain, with no ads, is not something that can be disputed. There is no "bad faith" if it isn't being used, and you aren't contacting the corporation trying to get a certain amount of money for it.

            I am not saying, that you can use all trademarked domains, and get away with it. Half the time you may be able to if it is something completely different, however, if you are trying to profit off of the company who owns the trademark, you are in trouble. You can park a domain and make sure there are no ads whatsoever, and let them contact you and be fine.

            So what I am saying... a parked domain with no ads, no content, no links to anywhere, is okay to have. Just don't go contacting their corporate office trying to pitch to them.
            Ahh, then just carefully and specifically say what you mean. That way, there'll
            hardly be any misunderstanding.
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          • Profile picture of the author sparkman
            Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post


            A parked domain, with no ads, is not something that can be disputed. There is no "bad faith" if it isn't being used, and you aren't contacting the corporation trying to get a certain amount of money for it.

            I am not saying, that you can use all trademarked domains, and get away with it. Half the time you may be able to if it is something completely different, however, if you are trying to profit off of the company who owns the trademark, you are in trouble. You can park a domain and make sure there are no ads whatsoever, and let them contact you and be fine.

            So what I am saying... a parked domain with no ads, no content, no links to anywhere, is okay to have. Just don't go contacting their corporate office trying to pitch to them.
            Once again...you are incorrect.

            A parked domain of a trademarked or non-trademarked name doing nothing,
            serving nothing is considered "passive use" and can be taken from you. Look up "passive use" and "passive holding".

            Also one HUGE "bad faith" indicator is a domain of trademarked or brand specific terms registered on the same date or slightly after a press release announcing the service or product.

            The only thing that will happen for sure in this case is the attorneys for the plaintiff are going to thank you for putting money in their pocket.

            There's only 1 way out of this for you if you are a US citizen and this is it. Put up a "sucks" site and make some critical posts about the company on the page without ads or their logo on it...and do it quickly... and do not negotiate with them. Let them come to you, and make you an offer. If you state any amount, you lose. If you use an attorney, the attorney can negotiate with them all you want...you can't.
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  • Profile picture of the author Valtan
    Or they will just register a different domain name,.. and not bother with you. That's what BMW does!
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  • Profile picture of the author Virtualghost
    I be missing something here but comments are made that you should not use a trademarked name in any part of domain and then profit from their product.Yet how many sites are made and sold daily which contain trademarked names as part of domain with content bearing the trademarks product.
    One other note where I live we had an everyday guy trademark a name a name of which the city used(street name)local hotels used and a Casino used so he wrote them all letters saying to remove his trademark name well it would cost them big bucks so they refused in the end he now owns the trademark and receives huge royalties and the 2 name trademark is a simple one could be used by anyone anywhere."fallsview"Google it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Gene Pimentel
      Originally Posted by Virtualghost View Post

      Yet how many sites are made and sold daily which contain trademarked names as part of domain with content bearing the trademarks product.
      Probaly a similar proportion as drivers who speed and don't get caught right away. Or similar to the proprportion of people who don't get caught violating copyright right away. It's just a matter of time.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Henderson
    Your domain name only has to *sound* like a trademark to arouse the curiosity of the trademark holder...

    Microsoft vs. MikeRoweSoft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  • Profile picture of the author anthony2
    When that business launches there product you can
    see if they have an affiliate program...signup and
    you could be making some serious autopilot commission off
    there marketing.

    Also you could receive a big pay day if they contact you
    about the domain....A quick high six-figures plus.
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    • Profile picture of the author davezan
      Originally Posted by anthony2 View Post

      When that business launches there product you can
      see if they have an affiliate program...signup and
      you could be making some serious autopilot commission off
      there marketing.

      Also you could receive a big pay day if they contact you
      about the domain....A quick high six-figures plus.
      Not to burst your bubble, but some companies' (especially big ones) reseller or
      affiliate programs specifically don't allow domains bearing their trademarks.

      While the OP could receive a big pay day, he also could get an administrative
      dispute (UDRP) or a lawsuit. Anything's possible.
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    • Profile picture of the author Texas_Guns
      Whew!

      Wow - this thread has taken a life of its own. I have
      been sitting back, reading the comments, and some
      downright floor me. However, lots of good info here
      mixed in with some opinions. At the end of the day,
      the domain name that I have is not trademarked.

      I sleep very well at night - I have nothing to worry
      about with this domain name. Guys, it is not like I
      registered microsoftsoftware.com or ebayauctions.com
      or anything like that. Those who have been in this
      game for awhile, some of commented on the post,
      know this game. You choose your battles - and take
      the safe route to cover your bases.

      It's not an easy thing to do - I get lucky maybe once
      a year to find a domain like this.

      Although, I did pick up a domain yesterday (that is
      far from as valuable as this domain) that is the
      main "niche keyword" exact .com. Right now there
      is very little traffic, however, there is a product
      that is coming out soon that I will be able to promote.
      The product was shown at a fair recently and totally
      sold out in an hour and they have months of back
      orders... a hungry rabid buyers niche in the making.
      It's like watching a baby being born.

      At the end of the day - sometimes I pick up good
      names, other times they are junk and I let them
      expire. I won't go into my full plan here (this is
      not a business for me, this is a hobby), but if you
      read between the lines, you can easily get into the
      game of picking up names that you *think* are
      going to become exact search phrases in the
      near future.

      One last example... I picked up 25+ domain names
      that I feel will be 20K plus a month exact search
      terms within the next year each. A couple could
      get to 100K plus a month. I do not see why not.
      The trends are already starting to explode and
      big players are just now getting into the market,
      including a recent story (yesterday) about Google
      jumping into the niche. I won't go into all the details
      of this niche because it is so crazy wide open and
      I'll be launching a ton of sites (instead of just flipping
      the domains) and within a year or so when everything
      really spikes, sell the entire network - hopefully for
      well into the six figures... or more. All I will say
      about this niche is three letters and let you do your
      own research.... NFC.

      Originally Posted by anthony2 View Post

      When that business launches there product you can
      see if they have an affiliate program...signup and
      you could be making some serious autopilot commission off
      there marketing.

      Also you could receive a big pay day if they contact you
      about the domain....A quick high six-figures plus.
      No affiliate program - and never will be. Worst case I can
      sell related products via Amazon.

      One last thing I will add is this...

      I just did some additional searching on the words used in
      this domain using quotes and digging deeper in Google.

      I found a few pages that talk about this exactly - dating
      back to old farmer's books from the 1800's.

      In some ways, it is a long lost recipe that the world
      forgot about as time went on. Huh.

      Maybe worst case, I can launch a recipe book about
      this and sell it on ClickBank.

      At the end of the day, I have a strange hobby at night.
      Once work is finished for the day, I do my normal "idea
      generation" searches online. One idea always leads to
      the next and before I know it, I have a list of at least
      a small handful of domains to research more.

      OK - one last example... Last night I picked up a domain
      name that has 22,000 EXACT match searches a month...
      I picked up the .com EMD. A little bit longer tail, only
      180K competing pages, high PPC, strong commercial
      intent to get information. Average CPA for this niche is
      $18. I registered the domain for a few years, and this
      AM sent a list of the articles that I need written to my
      writers. I'll do my backlinking deal (100% white hat -
      takes longer, but builds a VERY strong domain), and in
      a month or so enjoy the traffic and income.

      At the end of the day...

      What this is about is looking for domain names that
      have potential. I used to invest in real estate and LOVED
      looking at houses for potential deals. Because of the
      economy, I got out of RE investing. So that 'urge' to
      go and look at potential deals has transferred to the
      domain world I guess. 95% of my strategies are for
      the long-term. Years. Building high quality authority
      sites on these domains. The other 5% is spent on
      deals like what this thread is based on. Maybe I will
      flip it, maybe I won't. But the $10 investment was
      worth it to me just to find out.

      Didn't mean to change the direction of this thread,
      just thought I'd share more info about what I do on
      the side in the domain name world because there is
      just so much darn opportunity out there for those who
      are willing to dig 27 feet deeper than most.
      Signature
      Launching A New Product? Need Copywriting? Multiple services offered. 13 years of experience as a Direct Response Copywriter. Product/Company launch expert. Millions of dollars in products sold online.
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      • Profile picture of the author davezan
        Originally Posted by Texas_Guns View Post

        the domain name that I have is not trademarked.
        Not to beat a dead horse, but how do you know that exactly? Just because a
        trademark for it isn't registered doesn't mean it's not being used as one, which
        is actually how it exists.

        If anything, one question is timing like when the domain was registered versus
        when the trademark started to exist or be used as such. However, that won't
        be the only question to be asked, especially if that company is ready to prove
        that and more.

        Tell you what, though: if that company finally contacts you about it, perhaps
        let people here know how it goes to learn from you. Think of it as your form of
        community service, heh.

        Good luck, and hope it works out.
        Signature

        David

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        • Profile picture of the author Texas_Guns
          Originally Posted by davezan View Post

          Tell you what, though: if that company finally contacts you about it, perhaps
          let people here know how it goes to learn from you. Think of it as your form of
          community service, heh.

          Good luck, and hope it works out.
          Thanks and you got it. Whether it is a week, month,
          or a year, if I hear anything I will provide an update
          on this post.

          I nothing happens by Aug/Sept then there are 4-5
          other companies who may be interested in the domain
          that I will contact.

          I'll keep everyone posted on this.
          Signature
          Launching A New Product? Need Copywriting? Multiple services offered. 13 years of experience as a Direct Response Copywriter. Product/Company launch expert. Millions of dollars in products sold online.
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