Do The Guru's Really Find You... Disgusting?

83 replies
Yes, I love sensational headlines! They get threads
opened and commented on

When I look at all of today's leaders in the IM "industry" I
have to smile, because I remember when most of them were just
getting started.

Kern, Pierce, Walker, Fallon, Schefren, Filsaime... hey,
I've been around forever.

I also submit that most of them remember too.

Many of them cut there teeth right here on Warrior Forum

Russell Brunson, whom I consider a bright, caring, genuine
marketing expert, was once a college wrestler, asking "dumb
questions" right here on the forum... and testing his sig file,
and running WSO's.

Keith Wellman was every bit as frustrated as many of you often
come off as being. He once posted on this very forum what "scammers"
or "frauds" most of the gurus are. Actually, I'd have to look up
Keith's exact words, but he hadn't cracked the code yet.

Mike Filsaime noticed Keith's frustrated post and invited him
to a seminar in Denver that I was also a speaerk at, and gave Keith
some tips.

Keith listened, did what was suggested, and never looked back.
In fact, he looked over at his dad, Jeff, and made him a guru

Speaking of Mike... I can still remember him asking lots of
questions here, and as he prepared for product launches,
bouncing emails off me in the middle of the night.

I interviewed Mike back around 2007 and he described what it
was like, begin an outsider, and breaking in to "the guru club."
Actually, what he did was form his own inner circle... how he
built a successful IM business is very insightful.

Yes, I've been a fly on the wall, watching lots of Warriors
find their niche, take massive proper action, and suddenly
they are looked at as "gurus"... and they are pretty savvy people.

... and I don't use the term guru in a derogatory fashion...
I use it to mean someone who has achieved far above average
success in our niche.

Buried deep within this forum is 1000 such success stories.

No, they can't really look at you with disgust or disdain,
as we often suggest in our comments. We all came from the same
place... and we remember.


Ok, back to bashing

Willie
#disgusting #find #guru
  • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
    Originally Posted by Willie Crawford View Post

    Yes, I love sensational headlines! They get threads
    opened and commented on

    When I look at all of today's leaders in the IM "industry" I
    have to smile, because I remember when most of them were just
    getting started.

    Kern, Pierce, Walker, Fallon, Schefren, Filsaime... hey,
    I've been around forever.

    I also submit that most of them remember too.

    Many of them cut there teeth right here on Warrior Forum

    Russell Brunson, whom I consider a bright, caring, genuine
    marketing expert, was once a college wrestler, asking "dumb
    questions" right here on the forum... and testing his sig file,
    and running WSO's.

    Keith Wellman was every bit as frustrated as many of you often
    come off as being. He once posted on this very forum what "scammers"
    or "frauds" most of the gurus are. Actually, I'd have to look up
    Keith's exact words, but he hadn't cracked the code yet.

    Mike Filsaime noticed Keith's frustrated post and invited him
    to a seminar in Denver that I was also a speaerk at, and gave Keith
    some tips.

    Keith listened, did what was suggested, and never looked back.
    In fact, he looked over at his dad, Jeff, and made him a guru

    Speaking of Mike... I can still remember him asking lots of
    questions here, and as he prepared for product launches,
    bouncing emails off me in the middle of the night.

    I interviewed Mike back around 2007 and he described what it
    was like, begin an outsider, and breaking in to "the guru club."
    Actually, what he did was form his own inner circle... how he
    built a successful IM business is very insightful.

    Yes, I've been a fly on the wall, watching lots of Warriors
    find their niche, take massive proper action, and suddenly
    they are looked at as "gurus"... and they are pretty savvy people.

    ... and I don't use the term guru in a derogatory fashion...
    I use it to mean someone who has achieved far above average
    success in our niche.

    Buried deep within this forum is 1000 such success stories.

    No, they can't really look at you with disgust or disdain,
    as we often suggest in our comments. We all came from the same
    place... and we remember.


    Ok, back to bashing


    Willie
    The more the world changes, the more it stay's the same.
    But maybe they all don't have a way of looking at it so eloquently.

    Well said Mr. Crawford.




    Jim
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  • Profile picture of the author Kenwrites
    Very inspiring. Every forum gets its share of spammers regardless of the general topic. Regulars often dismiss or "bash" posters automatically just because they have seen the same questions over and over and over.

    The single truth is that we are all always learning something new or running into a problem here and there. It's part of growing as a business person and part of growing your business.

    Thank you for reminding us all, new and vets, that we all generally start at the same place.
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
      I heard the other day that is far better to be happy for another person's success because that makes it far easier for me to recognize success and be happy with it when it comes to me.

      It makes it far more difficult to recognize success in my own life and business if I have been tearing people down and being angry with them for bringing success into their own lives.

      Now, nowhere here am I sticking up for cheating people on purpose or deliberately trying to hurt them. That kind of thing has a tendency to come home to roost, big time.

      But lumping folks into a group and deriding them because they have been successful in their businesses, that might be something to consider stopping.

      Nice thread, thank you for starting it.
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      • Profile picture of the author vilnwv
        Hi Willie,

        Great post, very inspiring to those of us who are still struggling to make it up that ladder. However I have to make the comment on the title, for those of us who sometimes may forget. That right there is online marketing 101. Create curiosity and make someone click on that link It's nice to see just how many of the big guys did get their start right here at WF. I know myself I have far neglected this forum way to long and really need to sink my teeth into all the great resources that can be found here....don't worry I promise not to bite

        Thanks Willie for a great thread!

        Jeff
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  • Profile picture of the author Mohammad Afaq
    I wish the old forum were still up.

    I actually found a couple of (interesting) posts by today's gurus in there
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  • Profile picture of the author Always-A-Warrior
    I'm glad you brought this up because I remember when Mike used to get bashed for being a scammer and yet they didn't know him well enough to make those claims. I've worked with Mike since 2005. A great guy and a very successful marketer. Thanks for sharing Willie.
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    • Profile picture of the author drmani
      Somewhere, recently, I wrote: "I've seen generations of IM'ers come and go."

      The typical IM generation is 4 years long!



      All success
      Dr.Mani
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      • Profile picture of the author SMS
        Very well said, Mr Crawford.

        I've got one question for you, though...

        Why do none of these 'gurus' participate in this Forum any longer? I know there are bound to be a variety of reasons, but I'm interested in hearing your own perspective.

        Thanks.
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        • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
          Originally Posted by SMS View Post

          Very well said, Mr Crawford.

          I've got one question for you, though...

          Why do none of these 'gurus' participate in this Forum any longer? I know there are bound to be a variety of reasons, but I'm interested in hearing your own perspective.

          Thanks.

          Most of the fairly successful people that I know in internet
          marketing have visited this forum, and many still do but
          participating in the discussion here is often counter
          productive.

          One of my copywriting friends pointed out to me, just a few
          days ago how stong the "us" against "them" mentality is.

          Here it would be "us" who are still struggling, or trying to
          figure things out, against "them" who have "made it" and no
          longer care about the little guy... "or else they would give
          us more of a break."


          I've watched people like my friend Jonathan Mizel, who was in
          internet marketing when dirt was invented, drop by and make an
          insightful comment, only to be attacked by several people who
          didn't realize that he actually WAS sharing his experience...
          whereas many of the people that do share here are actually
          only sharing opinion. Perhaps well-reasoned opinion, but often
          not opinion filtered through experience.

          So, they probably perceive posting here often as having a
          negative ROI.

          Some of us feel "safer" than others.

          Willie
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          • Profile picture of the author SMS
            I've suspected that to be one of the main reasons.

            I also wonder if a process of self-selection is at play.

            In any large group of people, there is almost always a gravitation towards smaller groups. I doubt that the WF is any different, and it may well be that these 'gurus' have formed their own mini-networks. With the oft-alluded to 'Syndicate' being just one of several informal groups of like-minded individuals.

            At some stage, they may just feel more comfortable networking and chatting amongst themselves, and before they know it - they are spending less and less time on the WF.

            Hats off to you and any others that have persevered with the WF.

            Oz

            Originally Posted by Willie Crawford View Post

            Most of the fairly successful people that I know in internet
            marketing have visited this forum, and many still do but
            participating in the discussion here is often counter
            productive.

            One of my copywriting friends pointed out to me, just a few
            days ago how stong the "us" against "them" mentality is.

            Here it would be "us" who are still struggling, or trying to
            figure things out, against "them" who have "made it" and no
            longer care about the little guy... "or else they would give
            us more of a break."


            I've watched people like my friend Jonathan Mizel, who was in
            internet marketing when dirt was invented, drop by and make an
            insightful comment, only to be attacked by several people who
            didn't realize that he actually WAS sharing his experience...
            whereas many of the people that do share here are actually
            only sharing opinion. Perhaps well-reasoned opinion, but often
            not opinion filtered through experience.

            So, they probably perceive posting here often as having a
            negative ROI.

            Some of us feel "safer" than others.

            Willie
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          • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
            Originally Posted by Willie Crawford View Post

            Most of the fairly successful people that I know in internet
            marketing have visited this forum, and many still do but
            participating in the discussion here is often counter
            productive.

            One of my copywriting friends pointed out to me, just a few
            days ago how stong the "us" against "them" mentality is.

            Here it would be "us" who are still struggling, or trying to
            figure things out, against "them" who have "made it" and no
            longer care about the little guy... "or else they would give
            us more of a break."


            I've watched people like my friend Jonathan Mizel, who was in
            internet marketing when dirt was invented, drop by and make an
            insightful comment, only to be attacked by several people who
            didn't realize that he actually WAS sharing his experience...
            whereas many of the people that do share here are actually
            only sharing opinion. Perhaps well-reasoned opinion, but often
            not opinion filtered through experience.

            So, they probably perceive posting here often as having a
            negative ROI.

            Some of us feel "safer" than others.

            Willie
            In a nut shell once you get some success you become a target, the higher the success the bigger the target and The more slings and arrows head your way
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            • Profile picture of the author drmani
              Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

              In a nut shell once you get some success you become a target, the higher the success the bigger the target and The more slings and arrows head your way

              Robert, wouldn't you agree there are two other factors at play?

              1. How they achieved that success

              2. How that success was defined, in the first place

              The people I follow and learn from are wildly successful.

              They aren't 'targets' by any stretch of imagination. They are
              admired, maybe envied (in a nice way), and therefore followed
              and modeled.

              It's the way I've tried to live, too

              All success
              Dr.Mani
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              • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
                Originally Posted by drmani View Post

                Robert, wouldn't you agree there are two other factors at play?

                1. How they achieved that success

                2. How that success was defined, in the first place

                The people I follow and learn from are wildly successful.

                They aren't 'targets' by any stretch of imagination. They are
                admired, maybe envied (in a nice way), and therefore followed
                and modeled.

                It's the way I've tried to live, too

                All success
                Dr.Mani
                NO...

                because there is always a group that lash out at success and they spoil the well for those that think like you and me...

                And it gets worse intermediate marketers those with some success but not the heady heights of those at the top, also fade away because they want to hear what the top guys think.

                And they get irritated at the constant chipping away at successful people. I dont know about you Mani but i want to hang around with the best of the best.

                Its OK giving back as willie you and I do but we have needs to, and it's in our best interest to hang out with our peers too.

                Rethink back to when you and I were mods here and how you got jumped on and mauled so badly you left... Even Willie got so maligned he left for a while.

                You both dipped your toes back in here, but a lot dont ever come back
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Too many people forget that we are just that...people.

                  Sure, there are good and bad in every profession and every walk of life. But
                  just because somebody has reached "guru" status, doesn't mean that they
                  are a scum sucking pig and treat their customers like cattle.

                  I recently opened a lifetime coaching class for 25 people (now closed) for
                  a paltry $197. Lifetime.

                  You can do the math as to how much it's costing the customer per hour
                  over the cost of their life.

                  I did it to give something back.

                  Because you see, I was one of those lost, deer in the headlight people
                  myself. I spent my first 5 months online scratching and clawing to make
                  $28.

                  I thought the whole "making money online thing" was a total scam. I was
                  angry at everybody...except myself.

                  And then I realized that there was nobody to blame but myself.

                  The long story short is that I have made it to where I am today, semi
                  retired, working only when I want at what I want, without having to worry
                  about how much I make or don't make.

                  And yes, lots of people hate me...maybe more than most gurus because
                  I have a damn big mouth and am not afraid to open it.

                  But last night instead of slaving over a computer writing articles or
                  cranking out another product, I was over at my friend Steve's comic
                  store in Union, NJ playing Magic The Gathering with a bunch of guys.

                  I even won a couple of matches.

                  So let the haters hate and the disbelievers not believe.

                  I finally, after 53 years, have the life I always dreamed of.

                  And that is ALL I care about.
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                • Profile picture of the author cmlewis
                  always good to see you here Robert. hope we can spend some time with you in DC
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                • Profile picture of the author drmani
                  Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

                  NO...

                  because there is always a group that lash out at success and they spoil the well for those that think like you and me...

                  And it gets worse intermediate marketers those with some success but not the heady heights of those at the top, also fade away because they want to hear what the top guys think.

                  And they get irritated at the constant chipping away at successful people. I dont know about you Mani but i want to hang around with the best of the best.

                  Its OK giving back as willie you and I do but we have needs to, and it's in our best interest to hang out with our peers too.

                  Rethink back to when you and I were mods here and how you got jumped on and mauled so badly you left... Even Willie got so maligned he left for a while.

                  You both dipped your toes back in here, but a lot dont ever come back
                  Robert, I honestly 'get' what you're saying... BUT have started
                  seeing things quite differently after knowing many really successful
                  and happy people.

                  Yes, there was a backlash directed at me some years back. Looking
                  back, I'm not sure that I didn't deserve it, in some way.

                  Yes, I'm "back" (never left, really, just decided to start posting
                  again) - and am doing things differently... haven't yet seen the
                  same reaction. Have people changed? Have I? Don't know. Maybe
                  both.

                  What life has taught me is that it smacks of elitism to 'categorize'
                  people. I truly believe EVERYONE matters. On my blog, I write a
                  lot about that - here, and here, and here, for instance.

                  And so, associating with anyone is instructive, helpful and a
                  learning experience. You only choose the kind of folks you want to
                  learn from - but the lessons are there for the taking, regardless of where
                  you hang out, and what you do with them.

                  Just some thoughts. In broad principles, we are in perfect agreement.
                  Not surprising, considering how similar our IM experiences have been
                  over about similar periods of time

                  All success
                  Dr.Mani
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                  • Profile picture of the author Brad Spencer
                    Originally Posted by drmani View Post


                    Yes, there was a backlash directed at me some years back. Looking
                    back, I'm not sure that I didn't deserve it, in some way.
                    Obviously this is rhetorical but why would anyone lash out at you?

                    I've never seen anything but generosity from your posts and Sig links.

                    I guess that illustrates Robert's point a bit b/c people will be people...

                    Oh well just live nicely and karma comes back.

                    Cheers,

                    Brad
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                    • Profile picture of the author drmani
                      Thanks, Brad

                      Originally Posted by Brad Spencer View Post

                      Obviously this is rhetorical but why would anyone lash out at you?

                      I've never seen anything but generosity from your posts and Sig links.

                      I guess that illustrates Robert's point a bit b/c people will be people...

                      Oh well just live nicely and karma comes back.

                      Cheers,

                      Brad
                      Well, I'll put it this way.

                      It's one thing to BE helpful.

                      It's another thing to keep SAYING you're being helpful.

                      All the talk about "giving back" creates an aura or positioning
                      of 'superiority' (I've got something to give back, so I'm better
                      than you
                      )... and it could elicit a backlash (No, you're not,
                      I'm just as good as you!
                      ).

                      When you simply give, you don't have that element - at all.

                      There's nothing to lash out AT.

                      The most generous givers I know don't ever talk about it.

                      It's why they aren't 'targets'. And are happy people.

                      All success
                      Dr.Mani
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                  • Profile picture of the author Sparklesperson
                    While I'm not a guru in IM or anything else yet, I wanted to share my experience.

                    I have for many years wanted to compete in the Olympic equestrian (horses) games, and finally, after a serious back injury that took me out of my J.O.B., decided to start working on it.

                    I started a little info business, niched in horses/horse lovers. I started taking riding lessons. And I started looking at the challenges I knew I'd face, and outlining how I would address them.

                    One challenge I did NOT anticipate was how my family would react to my goal. My younger sister, after picking a number of fights with me, slapped me with a restraining order, effectively keeping me completely away from my horses. She also physically injured me, seriously aggravating my back injury. My mother , and the rest of my sibs sided with her. I was in hideous physical pain - and only I and hubby cared.

                    Yes, I had been in lessons and moving up through the levels of training.. and was starting 2nd level work. If you figure an Olympic rider competes at about level 12, and competed for years working their way up those levels - and I hadn't even competed anywhere yet, you get the idea of how far I really had to go yet.

                    My sister actually said to me "Stop trying to make me look bad" - like that was the point of what I was doing.

                    Four years later, I got a new horse. Didn't spend a penny to get him, he was a gift. A week later, here's a new restraining order. Yes, the jealous sister again.

                    But this time, I barely care. No depression over it. You kick a dog enough times, and after a while, he doesn't care about you anymore.

                    My point is, that when you raise your standard, even if it's just for yourself, you DO make yourself a target. I'm glad that Robert and Willie have learned how to conduct themselves and are in here - I personally have been dished on - not in here - by family - and I tell you, it's NOT pleasant.

                    When I "make it" in my niche, I don't know how I'll conduct myself in here. I have IM dreams as well - so we'll see. I do know that when one has success, they are a target, even if it's from the frustrated and jealous. I don't know if it's a great enough reason to NOT succeed, or if my reason to succeed will over shadow them. Guess we'll see!
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                    Happy Trails!
                    Patricia Reszetylo
                    http://FreeHorseGifts.com

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            • Profile picture of the author paulie888
              Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

              In a nut shell once you get some success you become a target, the higher the success the bigger the target and The more slings and arrows head your way
              No doubt about that - you get the envious critics and detractors who seem to spend all their energy finding fault with the successful marketers, and the funny thing is they don't realize how much they're hurting themselves in the process. Instead of focusing on their own business, they're futilely wasting so much of their time and energy slamming these gurus instead.
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              • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                Hi,

                You can clear up most of the confusion here (there appears to be a lot) by simply separating the group within the forum into two broad sections.

                (A) There are those who see this as 'a relationship business' purely in terms of the relationships that they build with their paying customers, whether they get paid directly (buyer->vendor) OR indirectly (affiliate/advertising site builder).

                (B) The other group are those who ALSO see this as a relationship business, because the strength of their business DEPENDS on the relationships that they build with others on a horizontal level - IE - those who are heavily in involved in partnerships, joint ventures etc.

                If you consider this split within the group, things become a lot clearer. If you ignore it, things remain muddy.

                Ignoring the split appears to be the catalyst that encourages the one group to launch blanket generalisations against the other group.

                For example - fellow warrior Paulie888 says -

                No doubt about that - you get the envious critics and detractors who seem to spend all their energy finding fault with the successful marketers, and the funny thing is they don't realize how much they're hurting themselves in the process. Instead of focusing on their own business, they're futilely wasting so much of their time and energy slamming these gurus instead.
                The problem here is that this logic is used to taint ANYONE who EVER disagrees with ANYTHING that anyone considered a guru says, regardless of whether their motivation is entirely altruistic.

                Fellow warrior Robert Puddy says -

                because there is always a group that lash out at success and they spoil the well for those that think like you and me...
                Fellow warrior Brad Spencer says -

                If people spent 1/10 the time they spend bashing/talking trash about people and spent it on modeling these people...good god they would be in the same crowd.

                [snip]

                Thanks to everyone for posting here...gotta fight the haters a little bit and post some nice things...get the good karma/juju going here
                Fellow warrior CDarklock says -

                This is a relationship business. You don't get very far in a relationship business without knowing what people say about you. Being two-faced is not as easy to conceal as it once was.
                I could find more quotes to make my point, but that should do.

                You're all (generally) doing two things here -

                a) reinforcing the idea that disagreeing with anyone classed as a guru puts that person into a 'one-size-fits-all' category, without exception

                b) ignoring the split - IE - making the assumption that EVERYONE who comes here is interested in building horizontal relationships with other sellers/internet marketers PRIMARILY in order to expand their business (B)

                In the OP Willie concludes with -

                No, they can't really look at you with disgust or disdain,
                as we often suggest in our comments. We all came from the same
                place... and we remember.
                And others back this up, like Brad, for example -

                I still chuckle because I have met so many "gurus" and they're great. They inspire me b/c many of them didnt' lose their "personality" that they were before they were rich, successful, "insert positive adjective here."
                So allow me to explain what the effect of all of this is, particularly as it relates to those of us who are on the other side of the split (A) - IE - those of us who may still build friendships and strategic alliances, BUT do so mainly for reasons other than PRIMARILY to expand our business directly through those alliances - IE - just for friendship, companionship or to mutually gain education and to share experiences and knowledge - put another way - those of us who disagree with a lot of the arguments presented in this thread by those on the other side of the split and therefore those of us who are often labelled as haters etc, if we dare to disagree with someone.

                We KNOW that those on the other side of the split are very keen to ingratiate themselves with those 'above' them - that is obvious. You have told us countless times in this thread (and elsewhere) that 'this is a relationship business' - of the type outlined above (B) - NOT just about relationships with your customers, but about relationships with your peers and your fellow business people.

                Therefore, because we are not stupid, we understand WHY you are so keen to say all of these nice things about gurus - even in cases where they are obviously not true. Consequently, you also say not-so-nice things about others - those who might not feel so amorous towards the gurus.

                We can often turn a blind eye to and tolerate the nice things you say about gurus, but do WE call you hypocritical, dishonest, sycophants EVERY time you do this?

                No, we don't.

                So why do you feel the need to call ANYONE who disagrees with anything a guru says a hater?

                It should work both ways, but it doesn't. And that's fine.

                But just remember that those of us on the other side of the split DON'T alter what we say and how we say it based on the perceived position of the person in the IM heirarchy, not least because OUR perceived authority or worth (or whatever) has a lot to do with integrity.

                If I disagree with Joe Bloggs and feel that I need to point out my disagreement in a thread, I will do so.

                If I disagree with Allen Says, Paul Myers, Jonathan Mizel, Willie Crawford, Robert Puddy or even Bill Gates and feel that I need to point out my disagreement in a thread, then I will also do so.

                If you want to try and make out that this makes me a hater or a loser or one of the countless other loaded terms that are thrown around here, that's absolutely fine. But to do so, is simply shining the spotlight back onto the state of your integrity.

                Fellow warrior Dave Rodman (the only other person in this thread willing to stick his neck out) said -

                The very business is pretty sleazy
                He's right. Those of us on this side of the split see it all of the time. But we don't remind you of that constantly, we don't shove it down your throats.

                Those of us who are more interested in true freedom and independence than joint ventures, those of us who are more than happy to turn down business opportunities that threaten our independence (I think you call that 'leaving money on the table') might have things that we could teach you from the other side of the 'split' - a different perspective.

                But of course, you lot have got it all sussed out and have no time or inclination to listen to haters, whiners and losers - alternatively known as 'those who don't allow vested interests to get in the way of honesty, integrity and truth.'

                It's as if it's never crossed any of your minds that rather than 'bashing' for the sake of bashing, some people actually disagree with some things that gurus have said here because -

                a) they disagree with them

                b) they (and others) benefit from lively discussions, rather than robotic, sycophantic agreement

                c) they are actually concerned about newbies/others being misled - at a high cost - because they have experienced this problem themselves in the past

                There are many things that we on the other side of the split find 'disgusting' - not least, the fact that for the majority of sycophants the only benefit you are likely to receive for the firesale of your integrity is the 'opportunity' to promote and build your favourite guru's business for an extra 10% commission than the unwashed affiliates and the 'opportunity' for high-priced mentoring from someone (in many cases) whos only real achievement that places them 'above' you, is their placement in the IM heirarchy which has most likely been achieved by the same kind of sycophantism in the right place at the right time - before the club's doors were closed to new entrants (RE Mike Filsaime's 'death of internet marketing.')

                It's also worth mentioning that contrary to what some would like to infer - that these gurus get jumped on the second that they dare to post here, the truth is quite different. Among the lurkers, it's likely that there are many who regularly bite their tongues, even though they would prefer to share some wisdom purely in order to help out those who 'don't know better.' Speaking for myself, I have lurked around this thread and others like it (where I haven't commented) reading the replies, for some time. The trigger for me to have my say is when it goes way beyond sycophantism and moves onto blanket condemnation of anyone who dares (or has ever dared) to disagree. Old wounds are re-opened and revisited and subtle, snide, blanket generalisations are invoked (by some) to try and settle old scores. Thankyou to those of you who inspire an ExRat rant.

                Cheers!

                Sorry for the interruption, please carry on with the adulation of gurus and generalised, blanket character-assassination of anyone who doesn't need to build those kind of 'relationships' and has happened, on occasion, to raise a dissenting voice against the 'Gods' of IM, for no benefit to themselves, only others.
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                Roger Davis

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                • Profile picture of the author Zanti
                  Interesting observations Roger,

                  I don't necessarily find it to be as black and white, one side or the other as you do.

                  Although, like you, if I feel the need to disagree with anyone here or outside of here, regardless of their station in life I've always done so and will continue to do so.

                  I have no need to seek the good approval of others here or else where, I left the tribe a long time ago.

                  I've also spoken out on the concept of " the leaving money on the table, mindset".

                  For me, as I believe it is for you and several others who have posted here, my integrity and honor have led me to true freedom and independence. Without having to compromise who I am as a man.

                  I also don't see the conspiracy theory or ulterior motives behind every comment made here, be they either positive or negative. But I guess I'm not looking for that, which may explain why I don't see it.

                  I have and will continue to see the world in terms of abundance and not scarcity. I will always walk my talk, so to speak. I mean what I say and say what I mean. As I know that you do also.

                  The labels and terms that get tossed around here frequently really serve little purpose for what most of us are trying to do with our business and our life.

                  I try and stay away from words like; them, we, and others in that line when I can, and stick with I statements. I also learned a long time ago not to "should" on others.

                  Roger, I find your intellectual reasoning on most of what you post in the forum to be very well thought-out and consistent with who you are as a business person and man. I do respect you for that and speaking your truth.

                  Brian (Z)
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Roger,

                  Yes, it's possible to disagree without falling into either camp. You're the canonical example of that ability. But you miss part of the problem amidst your distinctions. You fail to define 'guru,' for purposes of your comments. Your failure to do that is hardly unique. The same omission by others is what makes you think they're kissing up to someone.

                  The word has exactly no commonly agreed upon meaning when used in discussions here. That makes it useless. When you say 'guru,' you mean something very different than everyone else, and that's true of nearly everyone here who uses it.

                  You read it as meaning what you intend by the word. When someone who uses it to mean something else reads your comments including the word, they interpret it according to their - different - definition, and there's an immediate disconnect in the conversation.

                  You all end up arguing past each other. Since you each assume your meaning to be the common one, you get frustrated. How can the other person say that about [blank]?

                  Example: Person A uses the word to mean expert, which is in accord with any standard dictionary's list of definitions. When they comment on the value of advice from a 'guru,' their intent is to defend the value of knowledge shared from experience.

                  Person B intends the word to mean someone who pretends to knowledge in an effort to extract money from the uninformed through deceit. When they read a defense of 'gurus' by Person A, they assume that Person A is defending the use of deception in order to make a profit.

                  They are not communicating. But they keep making noise. And that's all any of these conversations ever are, as long as they hinge on the use of emotionally charged words without commonly understood meanings.

                  The problem is made worse by the tendency of so many people to ascribe mistakes, or even technological failures, to flaws of character. They see a server crash due to overloads of traffic and, instead of saying "He should know how to prepare for that," they claim it's a fraud, and the person who suffered the problem is a con artist.

                  This is absurd. And, for anyone who places any value on meaningful communication, it's offensive. Especially when it's done by people who are smart enough and skilled enough in critical thinking to know better.

                  Jason,
                  even though there is a ton of frustration, scams and thieves lurking around here
                  Want a sobering thought? I've read estimates from credible authorities that suggest that 1% to 3% of the population are sociopaths. Let's go with 2%.

                  Estimate the number of people who've signed up here who you would think are regular members of the forum. Divide that number by 50. That's the number of true sociopaths among the regular membership. That doesn't count the number of people with various other emotional, neurological, or psychological issues that could make them problematic in their behavior.

                  This is simply what the world is like. It's the nature of people. When a group gets to a certain size, those numbers will start to average out, regardless of what anyone may do to try and regulate it.

                  If that's all you look for, that's all you'll see.

                  I look at the whole animal. We have the usual majority for whom this is just an information source. And we have a large group for whom this is a meaningful association of peers and friends. If you look at the many good things those people do for each other, the picture changes. A lot.

                  Most people do not make a loud noise over a good deed. There are sensible reasons for that. But they'll scream to high heaven over what they think is an injustice, and there's good reason for that, too. If you know how to balance those things, everywhere is good. If you don't, nowhere is good enough.

                  The real world has sharp corners and rough edges. The alternative is a padded room.


                  Paul
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                  • Profile picture of the author ExRat
                    Hi Paul,

                    I understand what you are saying about the word 'guru' and the problems that can arise from it's use here.

                    You fail to define 'guru,' for purposes of your comments.
                    I used the term in my post because Willie used it in his title and his OP, plus he also went on to list the names of many of those that he was referring to.

                    Therefore, I was using the term in the same manner as Willie in the OP.

                    You all end up arguing past each other.
                    I see that happening a lot, not just here, but everywhere.

                    I guess the conversation just seemed to be a little bit one-sided and I felt the urge to balance things out a bit with an opposing view to the majority - because that stance is the one I ascribe to.

                    Hi Steven,

                    I've run into bad "gurus" and equally bad "customers."

                    One is no worse than the other.
                    Except that in this instance, the one is held up as a 'leader' and when that person posts here, there is a consensus that suggests (amongst other things, outlined in my previous post) that this person has hard-won experience and success, therefore we should listen carefully to their words and act upon them.

                    Therefore those people have a certain kind of responsibility in terms of the community within this forum.

                    Hypothetically, if an imposter were to infiltrate that group and try to influence people (the most vulnerable within the group) for nefarious purposes (like the 'bad guru' in your quote), any decent, functioning community would maintain the ability to at least be able to question and examine any potential 'leader's' contribution, in order that they could be exposed and thus de-throned if they turned out to be a fake, or perhaps just simply mistaken.

                    But as I pointed out above, many people in this thread appear to be trying to construct a kind of set of unwritten rules which would in theory remove that ability from the community, because anyone who tried it would be forever classed as a hater/loser/whiner, responsible for driving away the leaders.

                    For example (and this is in some ways also a further response to Paul) -

                    In a recent thread discussion with my fellow warrior and regular 'sparring partner' Robert Puddy -

                    LINK (see post #45 and the reply in post #47)

                    The short version (paraphrased) is -

                    a) I said that not all wealth is monetary

                    b) Robert turns it into an 'us & them' thing where I am the poor guy ranting against the rich because I have wealth envy

                    Of course this discussion was good fun - I mean no malice towards Robert by quoting (and paraphrasing) him here. But me and Robert have been having these debates and 'run-ins' ever since we first met.

                    From my perspective, it's the same thing as above - an attempt to stifle any dissenting voice by incorrectly pigeon-holing and labelling someone.

                    So with respect Steven, in terms of the forum and the threads posted here, I don't agree that the 'bad customer' and the 'bad guru' are no worse than each other - in this context. As mentioned, the 'gurus' are seen as leaders.

                    Others have said that we all gain if these leaders feel that they can post here. I agree with that too - honestly - but only as long as their words are subject to the same scrutiny, due dilligence and discussion as anyone elses words.

                    If we walk through Town A in State B and get mugged, we're going to assume that everybody in Town A in State B is a thug or that, at the
                    very least, most of the people there are thugs.

                    It's the reason why people generalize everything in life, from where you
                    live to what you drink.

                    If we don't do that, then we have to look at each person on an individual
                    basis and evaluate that person for who they really are.

                    And in this day and age of "instant gratification...I have to have and know
                    it now..." that just takes too much work.
                    But it's not 'too much work' for those of us in this forum, who (should) aspire to have a decent level of critical thinking and communication abilities. I think you're referring to the lowest common denominator here and then transplanting their sloppy thinking onto all of us, incorrectly.

                    What I'm saying here (and above) is that it's too easy for some people to keep rolling out this 'the gurus got bashed so they don't bother here' story. They're adults and business people. They can deal with it. The community can deal with it. Perhaps it's got more to do with that 'responsibility' I mentioned coupled with the 'due diligence' or 'scrutiny' in some cases?

                    If everyone who cares at all about the community here and is willing to stand up and be counted, call someone out or express a dissenting opinion to the majority - walked away and never came back, the forum would not be a better place, in my opinion. Some of them have already disappeared for the time being. Personally, I miss their contributions and hope that they come back because those type of independent thinkers, regardless of their success level or status, were my 'gurus'.

                    But conversely, those who don't agree with me and my type (I'm generalising here) but stand up and question things I say, which in turn forces me to question my own logic and reason (like Robert for example and also many others) are in the same (appreciated) category. I don't want placid agreement about anything, including my own opinion, I want discussion, debate and progression!
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                    Roger Davis

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                  • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
                    Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                    Roger,


                    Jason,Want a sobering thought? I've read estimates from credible authorities that suggest that 1% to 3% of the population are sociopaths. Let's go with 2%.

                    Estimate the number of people who've signed up here who you would think are regular members of the forum. Divide that number by 50. That's the number of true sociopaths among the regular membership. That doesn't count the number of people with various other emotional, neurological, or psychological issues that could make them problematic in their behavior.

                    This is simply what the world is like. It's the nature of people. When a group gets to a certain size, those numbers will start to average out, regardless of what anyone may do to try and regulate it.

                    If that's all you look for, that's all you'll see.

                    I look at the whole animal. We have the usual majority for whom this is just an information source. And we have a large group for whom this is a meaningful association of peers and friends. If you look at the many good things those people do for each other, the picture changes. A lot.

                    Most people do not make a loud noise over a good deed. There are sensible reasons for that. But they'll scream to high heaven over what they think is an injustice, and there's good reason for that, too. If you know how to balance those things, everywhere is good. If you don't, nowhere is good enough.

                    The real world has sharp corners and rough edges. The alternative is a padded room.


                    Paul
                    I prefer a Nerf room myself. And yes, I agree that you'll find whatever it is you are looking for in this community. There is a mixed bag of everything, that is for sure. It's the reason that I still come back now and then. I do appreciate the thoughts and ideas from many of the members around here.

                    However, since I don't spend as much time here lately, it takes a bit more effort for me to sift through the piles of nonsense. In the midst of those searches I often get a dejected feeling and just leave.

                    I'm not blaming anyone, or casting judgment on the community as a whole. But I'm kind of a sissy who doesn't like sharp corners and rough edges when I know there is rounded corners covered in butterscotch around the next bend.
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          • Profile picture of the author bwh1
            Guess that's why it's better to sell information then to give it away for free (like here in WF).

            If you sell it you always can give a refund to satisfy a complain.

            If you give it for free you are a spammer.

            Guru's are always measured, even if they only help out, and it's impossible to make everybody happy.

            I personally prefer professionals over guru's :-), they have other goals (most of the time).

            G.


            Originally Posted by Willie Crawford View Post

            Most of the fairly successful people that I know in internet
            marketing have visited this forum, and many still do but
            participating in the discussion here is often counter
            productive.

            One of my copywriting friends pointed out to me, just a few
            days ago how stong the "us" against "them" mentality is.

            Here it would be "us" who are still struggling, or trying to
            figure things out, against "them" who have "made it" and no
            longer care about the little guy... "or else they would give
            us more of a break."


            I've watched people like my friend Jonathan Mizel, who was in
            internet marketing when dirt was invented, drop by and make an
            insightful comment, only to be attacked by several people who
            didn't realize that he actually WAS sharing his experience...
            whereas many of the people that do share here are actually
            only sharing opinion. Perhaps well-reasoned opinion, but often
            not opinion filtered through experience.

            So, they probably perceive posting here often as having a
            negative ROI.

            Some of us feel "safer" than others.

            Willie
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            • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
              Originally Posted by bwh1 View Post

              Guess that's why it's better to sell information then to give it away for free (like here in WF).

              If you sell it you always can give a refund to satisfy a complain.

              If you give it for free you are a spammer.

              Guru's are always measured, even if they only help out, and it's impossible to make everybody happy.

              I personally prefer professionals over guru's :-), they have other goals (most of the time).

              G.

              From one of my subscribers this morning, in response to a note
              in one of my ezines where I mentioned subscribers saying that
              I didn't give away enough freebies:

              Regarding gifts. Give too much, too often and the receiver will eventually hate the giver ala President Johnson's Aid to Dependent Children's (ADC) welfare legislation.

              Not sure I agree with the thinking but I do have mentors who refuse
              to give away anything. When I discussed the issue of peers giving
              each other free access to products he pointed out that MDs
              and dentists are both professionals who value each other's
              expertise, but neither expects the other to "comp" them because
              they are equals.

              Different discussion but thought provoking for me as I adjust some
              of my prices for coaching today.'

              Willie
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        • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
          Originally Posted by SMS View Post

          Very well said, Mr Crawford.

          I've got one question for you, though...

          Why do none of these 'gurus' participate in this Forum any longer? I know there are bound to be a variety of reasons, but I'm interested in hearing your own perspective.

          Thanks.
          I try to help out at times but I can tell you the main reason I've dramatically cut back on posting here is because the overall vibe is just icky to me. I'm the kind of person who really listens to my gut and feelings, and after about 10 minutes of perusing the forum it makes me feel a bit dirty. So I leave.

          However, I do like to drop in and see what is being said because even though there is a ton of frustration, scams and thieves lurking around here, it's a very good measurement of how the market truly feels. And I like to keep my eyes and ears peeled on the pulse of the markets that I sell to (even if I don't actively sell to Warriors very often).

          That said, there are some amazingly brilliant and kind people around here too. You just have to be good at sifting through the rubbish, misinformation and opportunity whores who are fleecing people of their hard earned money.

          So, while I'm not in the habit of referring to myself as a guru, I can honestly say that yes, I do find an overwhelming amount of marketers as disgusting. I hate to say that, but I've always been one to call them like I see them.
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          • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
            Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

            I like to keep my eyes and ears peeled on the pulse of the markets
            And this is why the gurus, even though they aren't posting, still know what you said about them. They're lurking, either in invisible mode or without even logging in, and they see what you say.

            So when you come in here to trash Kern's latest campaign or Walker's latest product, then turn around and fawn all over them when nobody's looking, don't be surprised if they know exactly who you are and what you said.

            This is a relationship business. You don't get very far in a relationship business without knowing what people say about you. Being two-faced is not as easy to conceal as it once was.

            And don't get me wrong, that side of the IM industry isn't as large a part as it seems. Most people here aren't posting. They just read. In fact, some of the most successful people here have a post count under 100. The detractors and naysayers and guru-bashers aren't really the majority of people, they're just the loudest. Because they're the kind of people who think being louder makes you more right.
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            • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

              And this is why the gurus, even though they aren't posting, still know what you said about them. They're lurking, either in invisible mode or without even logging in, and they see what you say.

              So when you come in here to trash Kern's latest campaign or Walker's latest product, then turn around and fawn all over them when nobody's looking, don't be surprised if they know exactly who you are and what you said.

              This is a relationship business. You don't get very far in a relationship business without knowing what people say about you. Being two-faced is not as easy to conceal as it once was.

              And don't get me wrong, that side of the IM industry isn't as large a part as it seems. Most people here aren't posting. They just read. In fact, some of the most successful people here have a post count under 100. The detractors and naysayers and guru-bashers aren't really the majority of people, they're just the loudest. Because they're the kind of people who think being louder makes you more right.
              Yep. They all keep tabs on their names and products, and surely see what people are saying about them around here. Every big gun in marketing that I know still is peaking in from afar on the Warrior Forum whether you see them posting or not.
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              • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

                Yep. They all keep tabs on their names and products, and surely see what people are saying about them around here. Every big gun in marketing that I know still is peaking in from afar on the Warrior Forum whether you see them posting or not.
                WOW! So you mean we all need to be nice to the gooroos, because they are keeping a naughty/nice list? I wonder if I repent to the syndicate if they will forgive me...or will they just throw me into the depths of hell?

                Are gurus nice guys? I'm sure they are.

                But gurus are 2-faced and kind of like keyboard warriors. Outside of their normal marketing channels (launches, emails, salesletters), they are very "Aww Shucks". You know the type, "Well, if you can't put food on the table, then you shouldn't buy my product"

                When they get behind the computer, they turn into keyboard warriors. They no longer have any personal contact with people so they can feel free to use their "mass control" to influence. So it turns into "Don't buy this product if you can't put food on the table, unless you are ready to take massive action!!!!!" **cue fireworks** Or they might say "You don't need gurus, you don't need products, you need hard work" and then the next day "I just got word from Joe Blow. I know Joe BLow, he is the real deal. Is this $3K product for beginners? Well, not really....unless you're willing to work really hard!!!! **cue fireworks**

                The very business is pretty sleazy. It's basically just selling the dream and then continuing to hammer a bunch of schmucks for more money. (if you get upset that I'm referring to people who spend a lot of money as "Schmucks", then you are a schmuck and you should stop spending so much money)
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                • Profile picture of the author Zanti
                  Well, I have to be proactive and apologize for the length of this post. I'm really trying to work on writing shorter posts. Because there has been so much wisdom in this thread I just couldn't help myself.

                  So hang in there with me... or not.

                  With my background in small business development and my training and teaching in several disciplines of martial arts for 20+ years, the following is my take on many of the comments in this thread and how I see Internet Marketing, Business and Life. Not necessarily in that order.


                  SWIMMING WITH SHARKS
                  By Voltaire Cousteau*
                  Foreword

                  "Actually, nobody wants to swim with sharks. It is not an acknowledged sport, and it is neither enjoyable nor exhilarating. These instructions are written primarily for the benefit of those who, by virtue of their occupation, find they must swim and that the water is infested with sharks.

                  It is of obvious importance to learn that the waters are shark-infested before commencing to swim. It is safe to assume that this initial determination has already been made. If the waters were clearly not shark-infested, this would be of little interest or value. If the waters were shark-infested, the naïve swimmer is by now probably beyond help; at the very least he had doubtless lost any interest in learning how to swim with sharks.

                  Finally, swimming with sharks is like any other skill; it cannot be learned from books alone; the novice must practice in-order to develop the skill. The following rules simply set forth the fundamental principles which, if followed, will make it possible to survive while becoming expert through practice.

                  Rules
                  1. Assume unidentified fish are sharks. Not all sharks look like sharks, and some fish which are not sharks sometimes act like sharks. Unless you have witnessed docile behavior in the presence of shed blood on more than one occasion, it is best to assume an unknown species is a shark. Inexperienced swimmers have been badly mangled by assuming that docile behavior in the absence of blood indicates that the fish is not a shark.

                  2. Do not bleed. It is a cardinal principle that if you are injured either by accident or intent, you must not bleed. Experience shows that bleeding prompts an even more aggressive attack and will often provoke the participation of sharks which are uninvolved or as noted above, usually docile.

                  Admittedly, it is difficult not to bleed when injured. Indeed, at first this may seem impossible. Diligent practice, however, will permit the experienced swimmer to sustain a serious laceration without bleeding and without even exhibiting any loss of composure. This homeostatic reflex can in part be conditioned, but there may be constitutional aspects as well. Those who
                  cannot learn to control their bleeding should not attempt to swim with sharks, for the peril is too great.

                  The control of bleeding has a positive, protective element for the swimmer. The shark will be confused as to whether or not his attack has injured you, and confusion is to the swimmer's advantage. On the other hand, the shark may know he has injured you and be puzzled as to why you do not bleed or show distress. This also has a profound effect on sharks. They begin
                  questioning their own potency or, alternatively, believe the swimmer to have supernatural powers.

                  3. Counter any aggression promptly. Sharks rarely attack a swimmer without warning. Usually there is some tentative exploratory aggressive action. It is important that the swimmer recognize that this behavior is a prelude to an attack and take prompt and vigorous remedial action. The appropriate counter-move is a shark blow to the nose. Almost invariably
                  this will prevent a full scale attack, for it makes it clear that you understand the shark's intentions and are prepared to use whatever force is necessary to repel his aggressive actions.

                  Some swimmers mistakenly believe that an ingratiating attitude will dispel an attach under these circumstances. This is not correct; such a response provokes a shark attack. Those who hold this erroneous view can usually be identified by their missing limb.

                  4. Get out if someone is bleeding. If a swimmer or a shark has been injured, get out of the water promptly. The presence of blood and the thrashing of water will elicit aggressive behavior even in the most docile of sharks. This latter group, poorly skilled in attacking, of behaves irrationally and may attack uninvolved swimmers or sharks. Some are so inept that in the confusion they injure themselves.

                  No useful purpose is served in attempting to rescue the injured swimmer. He either will or will not survive the attack, and your intervention cannot protect him once blood has been shed. Those who survive such an attack rarely venture to swim with sharks again, an attitude which is readily understandable.

                  The lack of effective countermeasures to a fully developed shark attack emphasizes the importance of earlier rules.

                  5. Use anticipatory retaliation. A constant danger to the skilled swimmer is that sharks will forget that he is skilled and may attack in error. Some sharks have notoriously poor memories in this regard. The memory loss can be prevented by a program of anticipatory retaliation. The skilled swimmer should engage in these activities periodically, and the periods should be less than the memory span of the shark. This, it is not possible to state fixed intervals. The procedure may need to be repeated frequently with forgetful sharks and need to be done once for sharks with total recall.

                  The procedure is essentially the same as described under Rule 3--a sharp blow to the nose. Here, however, the blow is unexpected and serves to remind the shark that you are both alert and unafraid. Swimmers should take care not to injure the shark and draw blood during this exercise for two reasons: First, sharks often bleed profusely, and this leads to the chaotic situations described under Rule 4. Second, if swimmer act in this fashion it may not be possible to distinguish swimmers from sharks. Indeed, renegade swimmers are far worse than sharks, for none of the rules or measures described here is effective in controlling their aggressive behavior.

                  6. Disorganize an organized attack. Usually sharks are sufficiently self-centered that they do not act in concert against a swimmer. This lack of organization greatly reduces the risk of swimming among sharks. However, upon occasion the sharks may launch a coordinated attack upon a swimmer or even upon one of their own number. While the latter event is of no particular concern to the swimmer, it is essential that one know how to handle an organized shark attack directed against a swimmer.

                  The proper strategy is diversion. Sharks can be diverted from their organized attack in one of two ways. First, sharks as a group are especially prone to internal dissension. An experienced swimmer can divert an organized attack by introducing something, often something minor or trivial, which sets the sharks to fighting among themselves. Usually by the time the internal conflict is settled the sharks cannot even recall what they were setting about to do, much less get organized to do it.

                  A second mechanism of diversion is to introduce something which so enrages the members of the group that they begin to lash out in all directions, even attacking inanimate objects in their fury.

                  What should be introduced? Unfortunately, different things prompt internal dissension or blind fury in different groups of sharks, for what enrages one group will pass un-noted by another.

                  It is scarcely necessary to state that it is unethical for a swimmer under attack by a group of sharks to counter the attack by diverting them to another swimmer. It is, however, common to see this done by novice swimmers and by sharks when they fall under concerted attack."

                  ~From Perspectives in Biology and Medicine (Summer 1973)

                  * Little is known about the author, who died in Paris in 1812. He may have been a descendant of Francois Voltaire and an ancestor of Jacques Cousteau. Apparently this essay was written for sponge divers. Because it may have broader implications, it was translated from the French by Richard J. Johns, an obscure French scholar and Massey Professor and Director of the Department of Biomedical Engineering, the Johns Hopkins University and Hospital, 720 Rutland Avenue, Baltimore, MD 21205.


                  To summarize and give my take on the above:

                  When swimming in shark infested waters the important points to remember are these:

                  There will be fish of you kind but not of your color.
                  There will be fish of your kind and of your color.

                  There will be fish not of your kind but of your color.
                  There will be fish not of your kind or your color.


                  Therefore, treat all unidentified fish as sharks. (Be aware and identify sharks as soon as possible.)

                  Engage with any and all fish of your kind regardless of their color.

                  Always remember you can learn from all fish and even sharks. (Some of your greatest lessons will come from sharks, provided you're not eaten.)

                  The key: Identify who you are leaning from and absorb what is useful and discard what is not, for you!


                  One of my favorite philosophers in life, business and martial arts is Bruce Lee. I believe the following from Bruce is easily converted into what we know as Internet Marketing.

                  Bruce Lee ~ On Simplicity
                  (With a little bit of embellishment from me.)

                  "In JKD, one does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity.

                  Before I studied the art (Internet Marketing), a punch (Website) to me was just like a punch (Website), a kick (Sales Page) just like a kick (Sales Page).

                  After I learned the art (Internet Marketing), a punch (Website) was no longer a punch (Website), a kick (Sales Page) no longer a kick (Sales Page).

                  Now that I've understood the art (Internet Marketing), a punch (Website) is just like a punch (Website), a kick (Sales Page) just like a kick (Sales Page).

                  The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the Minimum.

                  It is the halfway cultivation that leads to ornamentation. Jeet Kune-Do is basically a sophisticated fighting style stripped to its essentials.

                  Art (Internet Marketing) is the expression of the self. The more complicated and restricted the method, the less the opportunity for expression of one's original sense of freedom.

                  Though they play an important role in the early stage, the techniques should not be too mechanical, complex or restrictive.

                  If we cling blindly to them, we shall eventually become bound by their limitations. Remember, you are expressing the techniques and not doing the techniques.

                  If somebody attacks you, your response is not Technique No.1, Stance No. 2, Section 4, Paragraph 5. Instead you simply move in like sound and echo, without any deliberation.

                  It is as though when I call you, you answer me, or when I throw you something, you catch it. It's as simple as that - no fuss, no mess.

                  In other words, when someone grabs you, punch him. To me a lot of this fancy stuff is not functional.

                  A martial artist who drills exclusively to a set pattern of combat is losing his freedom. He is actually becoming a slave to a choice pattern and feels that the pattern is the real thing.

                  It leads to stagnation because the way of combat is never based on personal choice and fancies, but constantly changes from moment to moment, and the disappointed combatant will soon find out that his 'choice routine' lacks pliability.

                  There must be a 'being' instead of a 'doing' in training. One must be free. Instead of complexity of form, there should be simplicity of expression.

                  To me, the extraordinary aspect of martial arts lies in its simplicity. The easy way is also the right way, and martial arts is nothing at all special; the closer to the true way of martial arts, the less wastage of expression there is.

                  In building a statue, a sculptor doesn't keep adding clay to his subject. Actually, he keeps chiseling away at the inessentials until the truth of its creation is revealed without obstructions.

                  Thus, contrary to other styles, being wise in Jeet Kune-Do doesn't mean adding more; it means to minimize, in other words to hack away the unessential.

                  It is not daily increase but daily decrease; hack away the unessential."


                  Again, please don't just look at the surface of the above, but to its depth.

                  The comments from this thread below, I believe, reflect much of the above in terms of Swimming With Sharks and Simplicity.

                  Originally Posted by Willie Crawford View Post

                  ... One of my copywriting friends pointed out to me, just a few days ago how strong the "us" against "them" mentality is.

                  Here it would be "us" who are still struggling, or trying to figure things out, against "them" who have "made it" and no longer care about the little guy... "or else they would give us more of a break."

                  I've watched people like my friend Jonathan Mizel, who was in internet marketing when dirt was invented, drop by and make an insightful comment, only to be attacked by several people who didn't realize that he actually WAS sharing his experience... whereas many of the people that do share here are actually only sharing opinion. Perhaps well-reasoned opinion, but often not opinion filtered through experience.

                  So, they probably perceive posting here often as having a
                  negative ROI.

                  Some of us feel "safer" than others.Willie
                  Willie, it sounds to me that you've learned to swim with sharks and are a skilled swimmer. Was that some of your military training?

                  Originally Posted by drmani View Post

                  ... What life has taught me is that it smacks of elitism to 'categorize' people. I truly believe EVERYONE matters. On my blog, I write a lot about that - here, and here, and here, for instance.

                  And so, associating with anyone is instructive, helpful and a
                  learning experience. You only choose the kind of folks you want to
                  learn from - but the lessons are there for the taking, regardless of where
                  you hang out, and what you do with them.

                  All success
                  Dr.Mani
                  Dr. Mani, I love how you can take something that can be so complicated and make it simple for anyone to understand.

                  Originally Posted by Brad Spencer View Post

                  Ya know it's the funniest thing what making someone many thousands of dollars of income will do when it comes to "coaching" or "mentoring."

                  March really changed a lot of things as far as my skill set and it really just comes down to two things.

                  1. Persistence.
                  2. Taking absurd amounts of action to get something done no matter what.

                  It sounds so cliche but I feel like that if you really just "grit it out" the magic starts to happen.

                  I don't need to tell you this obviously...but yea I've had a lot of good fortune shine down on me simply by reversing the usual "help me me me" attitude that floods this world.

                  Cheers,

                  Brad
                  Couldn't resist adding this Brad, it's what I hear you saying.

                  "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and will always solve the problems of the human race." - Calvin Coolidge, the 30th president of the United States.



                  Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                  ... I've seen a lot of people start here as new marketers and reach great heights in IM. One thing they had in common from the getgo was a positive attitude and a willingness to discuss and examine divergent opinions and ideas (ok- that's two things).

                  On the other hand, I can't think of a single newbie who started here with complaints, rants, and demands who attained any height at all. Food for thought.

                  kay
                  Kay, I think that attitude and approach are keys to creating success. Having the right attitude and taking the proper approach will overcome most obstacles.

                  Originally Posted by JMichaelZ View Post

                  ... I am sure there are some folks who acheived success who I would like if I met them. Probably some I would not, but that is how it is with any group of people. Our personalities match better with some than with others.

                  Outside of IM, I have found that when folks comment on something I have written on my site or in emails, that I rarely get any of the venomous responses I have seen sometimes here. And that is in areas where the ideas are strong and often polarized dramatically.
                  JMichaelZ, looks as if you also know how to swim in shark infested waters.

                  Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

                  ... That said, there are some amazingly brilliant and kind people around here too. You just have to be good at sifting through the rubbish, misinformation and opportunity whores who are fleecing people of their hard earned money.

                  So, while I'm not in the habit of referring to myself as a guru, I can honestly say that yes, I do find an overwhelming amount of marketers as disgusting. I hate to say that, but I've always been one to call them like I see them.
                  Jason, another skilled swimmer who understands swimming in shark infested waters.

                  Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                  ... So when you come in here to trash Kern's latest campaign or Walker's latest product, then turn around and fawn all over them when nobody's looking, don't be surprised if they know exactly who you are and what you said.

                  This is a relationship business. You don't get very far in a relationship business without knowing what people say about you. Being two-faced is not as easy to conceal as it once was.

                  And don't get me wrong, that side of the IM industry isn't as large a part as it seems. Most people here aren't posting. They just read. In fact, some of the most successful people here have a post count under 100. The detractors and naysayers and guru-bashers aren't really the majority of people, they're just the loudest. Because they're the kind of people who think being louder makes you more right.
                  CD, awareness of what we say and we do in private will ultimately show up in public. What always shows up is who we really are as a person.

                  Originally Posted by Kenwrites View Post

                  Ya know, I'm still "wet-behind-the-ears" when it comes to IM. I've listened to folks like Frank Kearns, John Reese, Willie and others and learned so much. Then I came here and read stuff from Steve, Alexa, Paul and many many others. It is always a process of learning. Hell all the gurus are still learning in some respect as they develop new products and methods (or even rehash a method to make it even better) The playing field is always changing and the folks that are successful constantly change with the playing field.

                  The "guru" bashing comes because folks who "think" they are trying to make it in IM, really aren't trying at all. They want the pill that will make every rosy and easy. The "gurus" don't have that pill. Nobody has that pill.

                  The "gurus" or those that have been in IM for any length of time get tired of newbies asking the same old questions and then having the newbies say the advice will never work. So the heavy hitters take their advice elsewhere or put it into another product.

                  I had always been skeptical of IM or affiliate marketing. Mainly because I purchased all those great programs that promised thousands for very little effort (remember the "$5 Dollar Money Machine") My initial success in IM came from a simple method in a simple book that I thought was worthless because of it's simplicity. I took that book and applied other things shared here, and am currently seeing the success I envisioned.

                  I'm still new to all of this and in truth I hope to always have that mind-set.

                  It has to be a pain as a "guru" to keep coming around here only to be bashed or told their advice is wrong. But for every one newbie that bashes a guru, there are 10 more newbies listening intently without saying a word. You'll probably never see or hear from them, but they are there.

                  So for every one of you gurus out there, and even those of you experiencing success and don't consider yourself a guru, know that you do make a difference and know that although you might not know it all the time, your advice and wisdom is greatly appreciated.
                  Um, sorry Ken, But I do have the Pill.
                  Ken, this is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. I believe you've taken the red pill, Ken.


                  Ok, if you made it to the end of this thanks and I hope it was worth your time. I'll close with these words to ponder.

                  It is not the frustrations that come with Internet Marketing, as they will most definitely appear, it is how we respond to those frustrations that will determine our failure or success in IM.~Zanti

                  Brian (Z)
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                  Brian Alexzander ~ Irie To The Highest - Respect
                  "Irie"...the ultimate positive, powerful, pleasing, all encompassing quality/vibration


                  A Candle Never Loses Any Of Its Own Light... By Lighting Another Candle

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                • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
                  Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

                  WOW! So you mean we all need to be nice to the gooroos, because they are keeping a naughty/nice list? I wonder if I repent to the syndicate if they will forgive me...or will they just throw me into the depths of hell?
                  I never implied that you need to do anything. You can be nice or be a dick to whomever you like. That's your choice.
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            • Profile picture of the author theory expert
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Willie Crawford View Post

              I have friends who believe in always charging family and friends because
              those are often the people who will waste your time the most, and
              take advice that others happily pay for... and do nothing with it.

              I know others who simply refuse to coach/consult family and friends.

              Willie
              You are correct about that. I completely forgot about the aspect of family and friends wasting time. I retract my earlier statement.lol.

              Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

              Dude, I started here doing $10 landing page copy and now look at me - I'm cleaning Frank Kern's toilets! Cool eh?
              Moving on up? sorry couldn't help myself this was too funny.

              Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

              I'm the kind of person who really listens to my gut and feelings, and after about 10 minutes of perusing the forum it makes me feel a bit dirty.


              So, while I'm not in the habit of referring to myself as a guru, I can honestly say that yes, I do find an overwhelming amount of marketers as disgusting.
              You feel dirty? Wow,lol....moving on....

              I consider you, and, Willie, "Gurus". I base how I feel about the IM camp, by mostly what you all say, and, how you promote, (I try, and, pic the lesser of the evils since the whole MM teaching seems oxymoronic in itself ).

              P.S. I am on your email list, so far so good


              Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

              And this is why the gurus, even though they aren't posting, still know what you said about them. They're lurking, either in invisible mode or without even logging in, and they see what you say.

              So when you come in here to trash Kern's latest campaign or Walker's latest product, then turn around and fawn all over them when nobody's looking, don't be surprised if they know exactly who you are and what you said.

              This is a relationship business. You don't get very far in a relationship business without knowing what people say about you. Being two-faced is not as easy to conceal as it once was.

              And don't get me wrong, that side of the IM industry isn't as large a part as it seems. Most people here aren't posting. They just read. In fact, some of the most successful people here have a post count under 100. The detractors and naysayers and guru-bashers aren't really the majority of people, they're just the loudest. Because they're the kind of people who think being louder makes you more right.
              CD took the words out of my mouth sort of. I was going to say that the gurus are smart and they know how to change IPs, so, I am sure they are here and some likely posting under a pen name(s)
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      • Originally Posted by drmani View Post

        Somewhere, recently, I wrote: "I've seen generations of IM'ers come and go."

        The typical IM generation is 4 years long!



        All success
        Dr.Mani

        The Market place we call the internet is still so new I'm not sure I agree. In most any marketing scenario there does seem to be a life span of sorts. I've seen a lot come and go over the years. I think the statistic we all see about most businesses failing (often 95% is claimed) in the first 5 years can be related to you 4 year generation. Like all things in life, there is a constant weeding out going on and if a person hasn't made a reasonable success in an endeavor in 4 yrs. they probably are on to something else.

        The one thing I think that changes the equation regarding Internet marketing is the sheer size of the market place. Every conceivable market on this planet is represented here and the hugeness of it all I think will greatly extend the time those that become successful will hang around and those trying to be successful will keep trying.

        The overhead is really cheap. Not many including yours truly have the resources to get a national franchised business of some sort or even find the resources to start up a traditional mom and pop brick and mortar these days.

        I think we will see longer generations of IM'ers than you might think. They just won't all be in the spotlight.
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      • Profile picture of the author Linda_C
        Originally Posted by drmani View Post

        The typical IM generation is 4 years long!

        All success
        Dr.Mani
        GAH.... do you KNOW how much you just aged me?

        LOL
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      • Profile picture of the author Torreylee
        Originally Posted by drmani View Post

        Somewhere, recently, I wrote: "I've seen generations of IM'ers come and go."

        The typical IM generation is 4 years long!



        All success
        Dr.Mani
        Haaa, so true! The landscape changes fast doesn't it?

        Anyway, great post Willie, very encouraging!
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  • Profile picture of the author Dave Rodman
    Banned
    You had me until you mentioned Keith Wellman. When Filsaime "knighted" wellman a guru, it was at the height of the guru gravy train. Kind of a ridiculous and pre-determined experiment. Find a disgruntled student, help them out, get my fellow gurus to launch the product, and then use him as a case-study. The whole thing was ridiculous.

    Product launches made a lot of these gurus and product launches also turned out to be their downfall. Launch schedules, "the syndicate", price fixing, call-centers, and all that....totally ridiculous. Hey, more power to em'. It's a two way street so people need to own up to their purchases.

    But these dudes are a long way from the "aw shucks" newbies they started out as.
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    • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
      Originally Posted by Dave Rodman View Post

      ...
      Find a disgruntled student, help them out, get my fellow gurus to launch the product, and then use him as a case-study.
      ...

      That's a model that you see in many industries, not just IM.

      No doubt that getting an endorsement/promotion from friends
      of a big name helped, but isn't that what most of us here try
      to get.

      I watched Ken McArthur of JV Alert do the same thing with
      Sterling Valentine, even getting friends to be in Sterling's
      product. Ken even pointed out in his promotions that he WAS
      stacking the deck.

      So, yes, that is done... not just in IM, but even in industries
      as diverse as music... where someone decides to create a
      star.

      I'm not sure what that proves... since we don't all get the
      same breaks. Perhaps it proves that it IS worthwhile to seek
      those breaks ???

      Willie
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  • Profile picture of the author Seomethodman
    great inspiration to people that are new to IM
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  • Profile picture of the author swilliams09
    I used to be on a forum for a sub genre of electronic music. I saw one particular group who were regular posters on the forum. We booked them once before they got big and they were great down to earth guys. But over time as the became more popular and started to have real commercial success, the noise to signal ratio got turned up on everything thread they post in, between the haters and the fanboys the artist no longer felt like they were apart of the forum community. It was just simpler to let the music speak for it's self and to stay out of message board shenanigans and mix ups. They gave gone on to more commercial success, but I'm sure they are still a great group of guys. I wouldn't blame a successful person for shying away from saying to much on forums, it's easy to be misunderstood, or agravated by jealous haters.
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  • Profile picture of the author swilliams09
    Willie, I'm an I'm noon for the most part. Who do you recommend for guys like me? I've learned a lot in the last year. I provide a video service to warriors. Bit I want to learn more about generating none service based income.
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    • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
      Originally Posted by swilliams09 View Post

      Willie, I'm an I'm noon for the most part. Who do you recommend for guys like me? I've learned a lot in the last year. I provide a video service to warriors. Bit I want to learn more about generating none service based income.

      The classic problem of running a service-based business is that
      your are trading time for dollars, which means that your growth
      is limited... since you personally can only do so much.

      The obvious answer, if you want to stay in the same niche is that
      you have to stop doing all of the work yourself. You have to find
      others to do the work, and you leverge your name/reputation to
      continue bringing in customers, but you don't do the work. You
      outsource it, ensure the quality, and then pass it on to your
      customers.

      This is how many copywriters work. They develop a stable of
      apprentices who do the majority of the copywriting, and the expert
      refines the final copy as necessary, but certainly doesn't do the
      part which is sometimes the hardest part... just getting the
      basic copywriting job flowed out and on paper :-)

      It IS tough for many of us to trust others to do the work... and
      even to hire others to supervise the works so that we just market
      ourselves... perhaps never even touching the work.

      I have doctors and dentist come to me with the same problem. The
      answer for them is to package some unique knowledge, and sell that
      to others... perhaps a system for building or marking a practice,
      or some proprietary process, or you sell some solution to other
      problems that those in your industry have.

      I'm retired military, so I understand the challenges faced by
      hundreds of millions (probably) of retired or former military
      people looking to either supplement their incomes or start a new
      career. I speak their language, so a natural niche for me to
      leverage my IM knowledge/skills would be that niche. I own the
      url 20 Ways To Make $100 a Day Part-Time On The Internet for that reason (although I
      haven't done anything with the domain name yet). In your case,
      if you can spot a natural fit with what you know/do and others
      with your background, that may also point you in another direction.

      I hope that helps.

      Willie
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      • Profile picture of the author swilliams09
        Originally Posted by Willie Crawford View Post

        The classic problem of running a service-based business is that
        your are trading time for dollars, which means that your growth
        is limited... since you personally can only do so much.

        The obvious answer, if you want to stay in the same niche is that
        you have to stop doing all of the work yourself. You have to find
        others to do the work, and you leverge your name/reputation to
        continue bringing in customers, but you don't do the work. You
        outsource it, ensure the quality, and then pass it on to your
        customers.

        This is how many copywriters work. They develop a stable of
        apprentices who do the majority of the copywriting, and the expert
        refines the final copy as necessary, but certainly doesn't do the
        part which is sometimes the hardest part... just getting the
        basic copywriting job flowed out and on paper :-)

        It IS tough for many of us to trust others to do the work... and
        even to hire others to supervise the works so that we just market
        ourselves... perhaps never even touching the work.

        I have doctors and dentist come to me with the same problem. The
        answer for them is to package some unique knowledge, and sell that
        to others... perhaps a system for building or marking a practice,
        or some proprietary process, or you sell some solution to other
        problems that those in your industry have.

        I'm retired military, so I understand the challenges faced by
        hundreds of millions (probably) of retired or former military
        people looking to either supplement their incomes or start a new
        career. I speak their language, so a natural niche for me to
        leverage my IM knowledge/skills would be that niche. I own the
        url 20 Ways To Make $100 a Day Part-Time On The Internet for that reason (although I
        haven't done anything with the domain name yet). In your case,
        if you can spot a natural fit with what you know/do and others
        with your background, that may also point you in another direction.

        I hope that helps.

        Willie

        It does and it's exactly what I have been thinking about. I've tried a few other people but they don't seem to be a good fit. I guess I'll have to keep looking around until I find the right people to work with. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. (also please forgive the spelling and grammatical errors, Iphone + cold medicine = crappy post!)
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  • Profile picture of the author pavionjsl
    I agree there seems to be more negatives then positives for some well known IM folks to stop by plus the more successful you get the busier you are. I do know that the name Willie Crawford has always been a respected one and I appreciate you being part of both worlds. You skirt both worlds very well, the successful IM'er and the WF newbies. This says a lot about the respect you have from both groups.
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    • Profile picture of the author SMS
      Reminds me of a saying... the higher you rise - the lonelier it gets.

      Originally Posted by Robert Puddy View Post

      In a nut shell once you get some success you become a target, the higher the success the bigger the target and The more slings and arrows head your way
      Originally Posted by swilliams09 View Post

      I used to be on a forum for a sub genre of electronic music. I saw one particular group who were regular posters on the forum. We booked them once before they got big and they were great down to earth guys. But over time as the became more popular and started to have real commercial success, the noise to signal ratio got turned up on everything thread they post in, between the haters and the fanboys the artist no longer felt like they were apart of the forum community. It was just simpler to let the music speak for it's self and to stay out of message board shenanigans and mix ups. They gave gone on to more commercial success, but I'm sure they are still a great group of guys. I wouldn't blame a successful person for shying away from saying to much on forums, it's easy to be misunderstood, or agravated by jealous haters.
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  • Profile picture of the author xxxJamesxxx
    This is gonna look a bit spammy but.... Cool post man, really enjoyed reading that

    James
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
    Great post Willie.

    I am often amused by the way some people react to success. This actually reminds me of when Frank Kern was on here before, outlining a plan he had.

    Several people started to tell him just how naive and wrong he was, that if he just stuck to article marketing he could make his first dollar online but that his ideas wouldn't work.

    I remember that another that member pointed out just how far past his first dollar he was, which inspired some rapid post alterations.

    The bloke who owns Flippa comes on the WF occasionally, though I have seen newbies line up to tell him that he doesn't know what he is talking about. I always wonder if they know who he is, and whether they really believe that his low post count makes one bit of difference.

    There are two very different reactions that I have observed, when someone obviously successful enters a community. Half the people will want to congratulate the successful person, while picking their brains. The other half feel resentful and picked upon.

    I do not claim to be a psychologist but can't help think that there are a lot of crazy people in this world.

    Cheers,
    Colin Palfrey
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  • Profile picture of the author Brad Spencer
    Originally Posted by Willie Crawford View Post

    Yes, I love sensational headlines! They get threads
    opened and commented on

    When I look at all of today's leaders in the IM "industry" I
    have to smile, because I remember when most of them were just
    getting started.

    Kern, Pierce, Walker, Fallon, Schefren, Filsaime... hey,
    I've been around forever.

    I also submit that most of them remember too.

    Many of them cut there teeth right here on Warrior Forum

    Russell Brunson, whom I consider a bright, caring, genuine
    marketing expert, was once a college wrestler, asking "dumb
    questions" right here on the forum... and testing his sig file,
    and running WSO's.

    Keith Wellman was every bit as frustrated as many of you often
    come off as being. He once posted on this very forum what "scammers"
    or "frauds" most of the gurus are. Actually, I'd have to look up
    Keith's exact words, but he hadn't cracked the code yet.

    Mike Filsaime noticed Keith's frustrated post and invited him
    to a seminar in Denver that I was also a speaerk at, and gave Keith
    some tips.

    Keith listened, did what was suggested, and never looked back.
    In fact, he looked over at his dad, Jeff, and made him a guru

    Speaking of Mike... I can still remember him asking lots of
    questions here, and as he prepared for product launches,
    bouncing emails off me in the middle of the night.

    I interviewed Mike back around 2007 and he described what it
    was like, begin an outsider, and breaking in to "the guru club."
    Actually, what he did was form his own inner circle... how he
    built a successful IM business is very insightful.

    Yes, I've been a fly on the wall, watching lots of Warriors
    find their niche, take massive proper action, and suddenly
    they are looked at as "gurus"... and they are pretty savvy people.

    ... and I don't use the term guru in a derogatory fashion...
    I use it to mean someone who has achieved far above average
    success in our niche.

    Buried deep within this forum is 1000 such success stories.

    No, they can't really look at you with disgust or disdain,
    as we often suggest in our comments. We all came from the same
    place... and we remember.


    Ok, back to bashing

    Willie
    Willie,

    I'm glad you brought this up b/c I've been thinking about this a while and I talked to Mike Cowles about this very subject last night.

    I absolutely love the "Oh...the Evil Gurus" angle that people put in their copy or marketing messages.

    It's kind of ridiculous. Anyone who's been in this business a tiny amount of time knows that there are some people who arent' as great as others.

    However, that's people...not that they're internet marketers.

    I get really agitated when people complain about others being successful mainly because I don't see the point.

    Every "Guru" I've met has generally been even more generous with their time and knowledge than avg people. I have always said that my personal experience totally contradicts the "Evil Guru" line.

    BULL**** I say...

    I have a list of people who've brought me on in projects, made me a ton of money, and referred me to other higher level marketers.

    This has resulted in tremendous market clout, people adding me on skype out of the blue, PM's introducing themselves, etc.

    Why? Because "The Evil Gurus" said that I was a good person to talk to and could help them grow their business...

    Evil? Bad? Yea right...

    Thanks for calling this point out and saying basically we all put our pants on one leg at a time. There really is no such thing as a "guru" that's just a mental construct people put in their head to justify needing a "boss" to feel comfortable.

    Oh well...just my 2 cents (or maybe it was like 20 cents...)

    Cheers,

    Brad
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    • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
      Originally Posted by Brad Spencer View Post


      I have a list of people who've brought me on in projects, made me a ton of money, and referred me to other higher level marketers.

      This has resulted in tremendous market clout, people adding me on skype out of the blue, PM's introducing themselves, etc.

      Why? Because "The Evil Gurus" said that I was a good person to talk to and could help them grow their business...

      You bring up an interesting point Brad. Those who have achieved
      some degree of success are still trying to grow their businesses
      because if they don't, competition will eat them alive.

      I'm not as impressed by big numbers as most because I have
      clients who make millions, have sold hundreds of thousands of
      copies of their books, etc. I know that over half of that money
      usually goes to commissions, fulfillment costs, and other overhead.
      Then the tax man comes, and the ex-spouse, and the kids in
      college, and often they aren't left rolling in that much dough

      So, while lots of people feel that those who have "made it" should
      help those who haven't, those wanting help rarely offer to help
      the "gurus."

      The way to get others to want to help you is to make it in
      their best interest, and to give first. Even if you are flat broke,
      you do have something of value to offer.

      You are invited into relationships because it's mutually beneficial.

      Willie
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      • Profile picture of the author Brad Spencer
        Originally Posted by Willie Crawford View Post

        You bring up an interesting point Brad. Those who have achieved
        some degree of success are still trying to grow their businesses
        because if they don't, competition will eat them alive.

        I'm not as impressed by big numbers as most because I have
        clients who make millions, have sold hundreds of thousands of
        copies of their books, etc. I know that over half of that money
        usually goes to commissions, fulfillment costs, and other overhead.
        Then the tax man comes, and the ex-spouse, and the kids in
        college, and often they aren't left rolling in that much dough

        So, while lots of people feel that those who have "made it" should
        help those who haven't, those wanting help rarely offer to help
        the "gurus."

        The way to get others to want to help you is to make it in
        their best interest, and to give first. Even if you are flat broke,
        you do have something of value to offer.

        You are invited into relationships because it's mutually beneficial.

        Willie

        Ya know it's the funniest thing what making someone many thousands of dollars of income will do when it comes to "coaching" or "mentoring."

        March really changed a lot of things as far as my skill set and it really just comes down to two things.

        1. Persistence.
        2. Taking absurd amounts of action to get something done no matter what.

        It sounds so cliche but I feel like that if you really just "grit it out" the magic starts to happen.

        I don't need to tell you this obviously...but yea I've had a lot of good fortune shine down on me simply by reversing the usual "help me me me" attitude that floods this world.

        Cheers,

        Brad
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  • Profile picture of the author DogScout
    There are 'good witches' and 'bad witches' in any niche, on or off line. Many 'successful' witches are great people, many are not so great. Basing one's opinion on perceived success of another is just biased and as close minded as racism or religious preference bashing.

    ~"Are you a good witch or a bad witch"?
    (Glenda in 'The Wizard of Oz')
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  • Profile picture of the author Palusko
    I guess we cannot really tell what they (or anyone, for that matter, especially on the Internet) really think, and what is just a game for Public Relation purposes. I mean, marketing and sales people are trained how to ACT. If they really FEEL the same way, that is of course hard to tell.

    There are gurus who follow "People suck, but for business/money purposes it is better to pretend they don't". And then there are the ones who are uniquely concerned. But frankly, it may have no effect on quality of their products. I don't need my waitress to care. No matter how she really feels, if she does her job right, I will still leave the restaurant a happy customer. I guess the same goes to relationships and products from gurus.
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    • Profile picture of the author desireeaib
      Thanks Willie
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Many of today's top marketers were members of the forum in years past as Willie pointed out. Many of them continued contributing on the WF until the trend to bashing got so out of hand.

      John Reese was one who regularly contributed here and it became common that every time he posted the answers were from smartoffs who sought to be cute by "bashing a guru" or negative nellies who didn't believe any advice from anyone or boot lickers trying to get his attention. The reasoned parts of the discussion got lost in the crush.

      I may not agree with some of the methods a few top marketers use - but I respect them for being able to gain the market traction they've worked for.

      I've seen a lot of people start here as new marketers and reach great heights in IM. One thing they had in common from the getgo was a positive attitude and a willingness to discuss and examine divergent opinions and ideas (ok- that's two things).

      On the other hand, I can't think of a single newbie who started here with complaints, rants, and demands who attained any height at all. Food for thought.

      kay
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Many of today's top marketers were members of the forum in years past as Willie pointed out. Many of them continued contributing on the WF until the trend to bashing got so out of hand.

        John Reese was one who regularly contributed here and it became common that every time he posted the answers were from smartoffs who sought to be cute by &quot;bashing a guru&quot; or negative nellies who didn't believe any advice from anyone or boot lickers trying to get his attention. The reasoned parts of the discussion got lost in the crush.

        I may not agree with some of the methods a few top marketers use - but I respect them for being able to gain the market traction they've worked for.

        I've seen a lot of people start here as new marketers and reach great heights in IM. One thing they had in common from the getgo was a positive attitude and a willingness to discuss and examine divergent opinions and ideas (ok- that's two things).

        On the other hand, I can't think of a single newbie who started here with complaints, rants, and demands who attained any height at all. Food for thought.

        kay

        When I look through the forum posts, I see people writing from different places in their lives. Some of the angry sounding people are trolling and looking to get a bunch of angry back comments to their link, and some seem genuinely angry at something or other. I have yet to see someone who posts consistently in an angry way actually get beyond that stage to anything productive.

        I am sure there are some folks who acheived success who I would like if I met them. Probably some I would not, but that is how it is with any group of people. Our personalities match better with some than with others.

        Outside of IM, I have found that when folks comment on something I have written on my site or in emails, that I rarely get any of the venomous responses I have seen sometimes here. And that is in areas where the ideas are strong and often polarized dramatically.
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  • Profile picture of the author mahal788
    Very nice story....
    Hard work and action is the only thing separating newbies and gurus.
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    But some of us are disgusting, Willie. lol Hey, it's ok if any of them
    feel that way. I don't care what they think of me.

    Realistically, I think, most people are good, and I can't really expect
    them to have any special feelings for me one way or the other. Just
    as long as whatever I may buy from them fulfills the promise in the
    copy. That's all that matters.

    They don't want to hang with me, that's cool.. but why would any of
    them (perhaps) assume I want to hang with them? It's like Bob Puddy
    said above, he wants to be with his peers. That's normal. We all have
    our peers, except me. I don't hang with anyone. It works out.


    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author netfluence
    Thanks Willie. Always the truth in a personable response. You're a great person and thanks again for everything you do.
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    Chris

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    • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
      Originally Posted by netfluence View Post

      Thanks Willie. Always the truth in a personable response.
      A lot harder than I thought it would be...
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Kay,
        I can't think of a single newbie who started here with complaints, rants, and demands who attained any height at all.
        Y'all're new 'round heah, aincha?

        Well, okay. Relatively new, anyway.

        I can think of a few. Including one fellow who's posted in this thread already. Type A personalities can seem a lot like the angry complainers if you don't look closely at how they respond to critique. And that really makes all the difference.

        Willie,
        A lot harder than I thought it would be...
        [chuckle] Some subjects are like that, ain't they?


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


          Willie,[chuckle] Some subjects are like that, ain't they?


          Paul
          Yeah, I use to enjoy watching you engaging in the mental
          juijitsu... from a safe distance. I still remember a thread where
          someone said, "why don't you get a dog, and name him clue...
          that way you'll have one."

          It's good practice though.

          Willie
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Roger, I read your very well thought out reply. And as I said in my original
        post, there are good and bad in every profession. I judge each person on
        his or her own merits.

        I've run into bad "gurus" and equally bad "customers."

        One is no worse than the other.

        It's called being human. It's why we have war in this world.

        I try to be as objective as I can about every person I come in contact
        with, yourself included. From the posts you have made in this forum, you
        strike me as someone with incredible integrity.

        Does that absolutely mean that there isn't a part of your life that I
        wouldn't find offensive? Of course not. Just as there may be something
        I do in my life that you would find offensive.

        The last perfect person walked this earth about 2,000 years ago.

        Ultimately, what one person perceives is going to depend on his or her
        experience.

        If they contract a guru to coach them and they don't come through or
        offer a half crocked program, and this happens time and time again, then
        that person will have no choice but to view all gurus as slime. It's the
        only frame of reference that they have.

        Conversely, if one just happens to come across a number of gurus who
        have been nothing but helpful, their frame of reference will be "what are
        all these people bitching about?"

        I've never been to an institution of learning that I felt was worth squat.

        Does that mean that all colleges are crap?

        Of course not. It simply means that I haven't found a good one yet.

        The human mind is not conditioned to behave like a Mr. Spock and
        logically work things out.

        If we walk through Town A in State B and get mugged, we're going to
        assume that everybody in Town A in State B is a thug or that, at the
        very least, most of the people there are thugs.

        It's the reason why people generalize everything in life, from where you
        live to what you drink.

        If we don't do that, then we have to look at each person on an individual
        basis and evaluate that person for who they really are.

        And in this day and age of "instant gratification...I have to have and know
        it now..." that just takes too much work.

        It's much easier to say, "He's a guru, so he must be a scum sucking pig"
        than to get to know him and find out just what kind of character he does
        have.

        Conversely, for those who have had positive experiences, it's easy to just
        call the rest of the world haters than to find out why they feel this way
        and maybe see that they have a valid reason.

        This is why I don't let other people's opinions influence my own. I will go
        and find out for myself just how good or bad someone or something is.

        I do this with very few exceptions.

        This philosophy of life may not work for everybody, as there is so much
        paranoia and distrust in the world, but it works for me.

        In other words, until you stick the knife in my back, you're my friend.

        But once the knife is stuck, don't expect to get a second chance.
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  • Profile picture of the author abigailmarketing
    I like the bit about giving advice to others the only problem is that not many people listen - hence the internet not being flooded with gurus!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author theory expert
    Banned
    I am not sure you can consider one an equal if they pay you or you them for advice? I would hope not to charge someone who I consider a friend for advice. Friends don't do that. Call them "business associates" or "business consultant" anything but a friend. I understand there are different roles in life, but, you have to call it like it is.

    Even some friends are in sub categories as Barry Bonds would attest. i.e, friends who would help you understand baseball, friends who will take a fall for you, friends who won't do either, but, maybe great at house parties(call that your "party partner".

    Great headline BTW
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    • Profile picture of the author Willie Crawford
      Originally Posted by janok View Post

      I am not sure you can consider one an equal if they pay you or you them for advice? I would hope not to charge someone who I consider a friend for advice. Friends don't do that. Call them "business associates" or "business consultant" anything but a friend. I understand there are different roles in life, but, you have to call it like it is.

      Even some friends are in sub categories as Barry Bonds would attest. i.e, friends who would help you understand baseball, friends who will take a fall for you, friends who won't do either, but, maybe great at house parties(call that your "party partner".

      Great headline BTW
      I have friends who believe in always charging family and friends because
      those are often the people who will waste your time the most, and
      take advice that others happily pay for... and do nothing with it.

      I know others who simply refuse to coach/consult family and friends.

      Willie
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Newman
    I suspect some are just using it as a marketing ploy, this ''bad Guru'' thing. At the end of the day, it's what we do day in day out that defines us. Not the labels. I've been privileged to work with some rich folks, most are very cultured and considerate.

    Thanks for a thoughtful and balanced take.
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Dude, I started here doing $10 landing page copy and now look at me - I'm cleaning Frank Kern's toilets! Cool eh?
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  • Profile picture of the author celenco
    Lol, there is nothing like the truth.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Willie Crawford View Post

    Speaking of Mike... I can still remember him asking lots of questions here, and as he prepared for product launches, bouncing emails off me in the middle of the night.
    Mike is a truly awesome person who once revealed that he still lurks here, but doesn't post because he's sensitive and can't take the sheer venom behind a lot of people's posts.

    Basically, the people who come in here and have nothing better to do than bash the gurus... are chasing those gurus away.

    They'd learn a lot more, and have a lot more success, if they'd STFU and listen instead of immediately branding anyone and everyone a "scammer" the second they see anything they don't like in a product.

    The game changes. You cross a line, and suddenly all the people who used to support you become your enemies because you made too much money, and didn't take their advice, and most damningly didn't give them any of it.
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    Interesting... there's guru bashing and customer bashing. The
    accusations on both sides hold equal amounts of assumptions
    and sweeping generalizations.

    But I'm not bashing anyone. Just posting an observation and
    impression.

    In my mind, it is not the fault of either side and there really is
    no fault, anywhere. People choose how they behave or react
    to the words and actions of others. If someone is overly sensitive
    to things that are said, then they choose what they will do with
    it.

    Nobody on either side is forced to do anything.


    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author Kenwrites
    Ya know, I'm still "wet-behind-the-ears" when it comes to IM. I've listened to folks like Frank Kearns, John Reese, Willie and others and learned so much. Then I came here and read stuff from Steve, Alexa, Paul and many many others. It is always a process of learning. Hell all the gurus are still learning in some respect as they develop new products and methods (or even rehash a method to make it even better) The playing field is always changing and the folks that are successful constantly change with the playing field.

    The "guru" bashing comes because folks who "think" they are trying to make it in IM, really aren't trying at all. They want the pill that will make every rosy and easy. The "gurus" don't have that pill. Nobody has that pill.

    The "gurus" or those that have been in IM for any length of time get tired of newbies asking the same old questions and then having the newbies say the advice will never work. So the heavy hitters take their advice elsewhere or put it into another product.

    I had always been skeptical of IM or affiliate marketing. Mainly because I purchased all those great programs that promised thousands for very little effort (remember the "$5 Dollar Money Machine") My initial success in IM came from a simple method in a simple book that I thought was worthless because of it's simplicity. I took that book and applied other things shared here, and am currently seeing the success I envisioned.


    I'm still new to all of this and in truth I hope to always have that mind-set.

    It has to be a pain as a "guru" to keep coming around here only to be bashed or told their advice is wrong. But for every one newbie that bashes a guru, there are 10 more newbies listening intently without saying a word. You'll probably never see or hear from them, but they are there.

    So for every one of you gurus out there, and even those of you experiencing success and don't consider yourself a guru, know that you do make a difference and know that although you might not know it all the time, your advice and wisdom is greatly appreciated.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
    Whether guru's or customers feel that the other is disgusting has a lot to do with the incestuous nature of the IM market in my opinion. When a guy who has never been able to sell anything successfully online, makes some course about making money online and people then buy it... and he then uses that "success" to further teach people how to make money online... and eventually he becomes a "guru" (in the parlance of the day).

    I believe that deep down, that guy feels like a fraud as he knows that he never started an ecommerce store selling patio furniture and made a living at it or never created a niche ebook in the tomato gardening niche and had enough sales to REALLY pay his bills...

    So, the only way he made money is peddling courses telling people how to make money. I am not speaking about anyone specific, however many have taken this path. When you feel like a fake on the inside, I believe it leads to a different view and relationship with your customers. Fear and loathing in some cases.

    And it certainly goes both ways. I am not making the customer out to always be the/a victim either.

    I guess the bottom line to me is that you feel a lot better about someone buying your stuff if you know that you have used it over several different markets (not just IM) and had success.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brad Spencer
    I still chuckle because I have met so many "gurus" and they're great. They inspire me b/c many of them didnt' lose their "personality" that they were before they were rich, successful, "insert positive adjective here."

    If people spent 1/10 the time they spend bashing/talking trash about people and spent it on modeling these people...good god they would be in the same crowd.

    I own businesses in 2 completely different industries and I can tell you...access to successful people in this business is 1000x more than any other industry on the planet.

    And people still complain....

    Ugh...oh well.

    Thanks to everyone for posting here...gotta fight the haters a little bit and post some nice things...get the good karma/juju going here

    Cheers guys/gals!

    Brad
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin_Hutto
      I agree with you... This is the only industry where people sell secrets. It amazes me to this day. There are many things that you would have to pay me well over $100k to reveal. But people are willing to let you see their stuff for as low as $7 up to say $10k... That is what people don't get... Learn the stuff then use it in niches where people don't know it yet.


      Originally Posted by Brad Spencer View Post

      I still chuckle because I have met so many "gurus" and they're great. They inspire me b/c many of them didnt' lose their "personality" that they were before they were rich, successful, "insert positive adjective here."

      If people spent 1/10 the time they spend bashing/talking trash about people and spent it on modeling these people...good god they would be in the same crowd.

      I own businesses in 2 completely different industries and I can tell you...access to successful people in this business is 1000x more than any other industry on the planet.

      And people still complain....

      Ugh...oh well.

      Thanks to everyone for posting here...gotta fight the haters a little bit and post some nice things...get the good karma/juju going here

      Cheers guys/gals!

      Brad
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Shook
        Originally Posted by Kevin_Hutto View Post

        I agree with you... This is the only industry where people sell secrets. It amazes me to this day. There are many things that you would have to pay me well over $100k to reveal. But people are willing to let you see their stuff for as low as $7 up to say $10k... That is what people don't get... Learn the stuff then use it in niches where people don't know it yet.
        It is quite amazing how many of the ideas that used to work in IM/MMO still do work in some markets. Not icky things, just smart marketing ideas. I have had some great results in other areas of the web
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom Brownsword
    While I take showers on a regular basis, I have been known to eat too fast and leave crumbs all over the table. Hopefully that isn't too terribly disgusting, Willie...

    Each person, guru or greenhorn, needs to be judged on their own merits (or lack thereof) and each person really should do this for themselves.

    And I love what you said about Mike Filsaime building his own inner circle. I'll have to add that to my to-do list.

    Best regards,
    Tom
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  • Profile picture of the author Fun to Write
    Okay, in the past, I've done a little guru bashing myself (not in this forum), but that was years ago, when I could be considered an IM newbie. So, I understand the frustration of people who sometimes let off steam against gurus as a whole.

    What newbies and other frustrated people need to realize is that gurus are teachers. They are not magicians - regardless of whatever "fireworks" or hype may be associated with their latest product launch.

    Strip all of that stuff away and what remains is information that is supposed to teach you something valuable. So, once you've read a guru's product information and it did not inspire you in some way to move forward in your moneymaking goals, then it's time to move on to either another guru teacher, or strike out on your own.

    I think the issue here is that many of us who study IM, started by learning from some IM gurus (teachers). Just like in school, some gurus are bad, some are mediocre and some are great (as demonstrated by several teachers posting on this thread).

    There came a point in time when I realized that my anger and frustration at some gurus was just a sign that it was time for me to move on. There's no point in harboring anger towards them (In fact, I don't - I now understand they are in the business of teaching).

    As a student of IM, you will eventually outgrow the general teachings that most gurus have to offer. When this happens, you shouldn't remain stuck on their list. If you are unhappy, unsubscribe and look for information that teaches you about things you're really interested in learning.

    A general "making money online course" isn't going to do squat for most people. We all have different interests, tastes and personalities. Just like a general "being successful in business" book isn't going to guarantee offline business people anything.

    I no longer pay any attention to what the IM gurus are doing, because their individual success isn't going to be duplicated by the majority of people. They are only a starting point. I only subscribe to someone's list if they have proven to have knowledge in something I'm very interested in, and also, have a flair for teaching what they know.

    If there's no continued value to me - I unsubscribe.

    If you're currently frustrated and angry at your lack of progress, don't bash a guru (although, you have every right to disagree with them in a reasonable way). Instead, realize that you have grown wings and are ready to fly out into the big IM world on your own.

    It's all about learning specific strategies and techniques that work for your individual goals.

    This is how you grow and move towards creating your own success.
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