by Kurt
13 replies
I associate with many SEOers that have the same problems, which is they (we) have all the tools, know-how and experience, but what holds us back is a lack of content.

There's a number of people new to IM that don't have the tech skills and/or money needed to buy many of the automated tools, but are good writers and can pump out content.

It's seems like a simple solution for both would be to team up. In theory, a writer and SEOer team "should" make way more money working together than apart. For example, why should a writer take months learning SEO, when that same time could be spent writing and being productive?

But like playing an old blues song, it may be simple, but it isn't easy.

Here's the problems as I see them from my experiences...If these can be solved, I think many of us could make a lot more money.

- Equitable share. What's the fair share? Is it 50/50 or should the SEOer get more? Less? I understand this will be different for each team, but where would you set the theoretical starting point?

- The "share" also includes "man hours". How much time should each put in, in relation to the other? Should a writer work 1-2-3 hours, for every 2 hours the SEOer does?

- What are ways to share the profit without one person having control of the money? For example, can a "rotator" be used that alternates Adsense and/or other programs?

- Who owns the content? Can you sell a site created?

- What's expected of each side?

- What are the risks? The SEO has black-hat issues, writers have copyright issues, etc...

In reality, I think the single biggest issue is finding a partner that has the same work ethic, commitment, available time and dependability.

IMO, this single strategy of SEOer/writer teams is likely the single best solution for many of the issues Warrior Forum members have.

Please, this thread isn't about "hooking up", it's about working out a framework to explore the hurdles and issues and possible solutions these teams face.
#seoers #writers
  • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
    Writers + SEOers + Marketers

    Direct response marketers like myself are crucial to any team.

    If you exclude the marketer from the equation you end up with poor monetisation.

    Of course, some people are multi-talented and can do two or even all of these things to a high standard -- but it's the exception rather than the rule.
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    • Profile picture of the author seokohli
      Originally Posted by oneplusone View Post

      Writers + SEOers + Marketers

      Direct response marketers like myself are crucial to any team.

      If you exclude the marketer from the equation you end up with poor monetisation.

      Of course, some people are multi-talented and can do two or even all of these things to a high standard -- but it's the exception rather than the rule.
      Very True.... All these 3 can do anything together.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by oneplusone View Post

      Writers + SEOers + Marketers

      Direct response marketers like myself are crucial to any team.

      If you exclude the marketer from the equation you end up with poor monetisation.

      Of course, some people are multi-talented and can do two or even all of these things to a high standard -- but it's the exception rather than the rule.
      Thanks, but this has little to do with the intention of my post, which is to find mutual meeting ground between SEO experts and writers.

      While optimizing traffic is important, first you have to get traffic. And to get traffic, you have to write something (in most cases).

      My personal "road blocks" and the ones I brought up of my SEO friends isn't a problem with tracking and testing, as many SEOers also know about these methods, it's about content creation and SEO.
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      • Profile picture of the author oneplusone
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        Thanks, but this has little to do with the intention of my post, which is to find mutual meeting ground between SEO experts and writers.

        While optimizing traffic is important, first you have to get traffic. And to get traffic, you have to write something (in most cases).

        My personal "road blocks" and the ones I brought up of my SEO friends isn't a problem with tracking and testing, as many SEOers also know about these methods, it's about content creation and SEO.
        I agree — I know where you're coming from.

        I think what you're trying to accomplish is difficult because of all the "issues" you've pointed out in your OP.

        Regarding the split, if I was doing the content I'd probably be most comfortable with 50/50.

        The other problems you've pointed out are tricky to resolve, but I guess that's why you've started this thread.
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        • Profile picture of the author packerfan
          I don't understand the basis of your question. If you're an expert SEO guy, why wouldn't you just outsource the content and let that be the extent of the "relationship" with your content provider? I'm not saying you need to use one of the dollar an article writers, but I don't understand why you'd want to give a "stake" in your business for content that you can get much cheaper.

          Likewise, if you are really an expert in a field and can create superb content, why wouldn't you just outsource the SEO.

          I wouldn't choose to partner with anyone because they provide what I consider to be a commodity.

          Now if it's because there is no budget, and both are just getting started or whatever, that's fine.

          Just to clarify - I'm all for creating a relationship with service providers, but I don't see the need to give them a stake in anything. I pay them for a service, they provide the service.
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          • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
            Originally Posted by packerfan View Post

            I don't understand the basis of your question. If you're an expert SEO guy, why wouldn't you just outsource the content and let that be the extent of the "relationship" with your content provider? I'm not saying you need to use one of the dollar an article writers, but I don't understand why you'd want to give a "stake" in your business for content that you can get much cheaper.

            Likewise, if you are really an expert in a field and can create superb content, why wouldn't you just outsource the SEO.

            I wouldn't choose to partner with anyone because they provide what I consider to be a commodity.

            Now if it's because there is no budget, and both are just getting started or whatever, that's fine.

            Just to clarify - I'm all for creating a relationship with service providers, but I don't see the need to give them a stake in anything. I pay them for a service, they provide the service.
            If you have an endless supply of money then there is no need to do any deals, ever.

            Hire a designer, writer, copy-writer, SEO-team, social media team, buy magazine adverts, pay for PPC. Heck, you could even hire a manager to oversee everyone's activities, and just send you a progress report once a week.

            In fact, my brother-in-law is doing just that. Not only does that require an awfully large investment, it also leaves control of your success or failure to others. I am not a fan of that idea, but if you are, go for it.

            Cheers,
            Colin Palfrey
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            • Profile picture of the author packerfan
              Originally Posted by Colin Palfrey View Post

              If you have an endless supply of money then there is no need to do any deals, ever.

              Hire a designer, writer, copy-writer, SEO-team, social media team, buy magazine adverts, pay for PPC. Heck, you could even hire a manager to oversee everyone's activities, and just send you a progress report once a week.

              In fact, my brother-in-law is doing just that. Not only does that require an awfully large investment, it also leaves control of your success or failure to others. I am not a fan of that idea, but if you are, go for it.

              Cheers,
              Colin Palfrey
              Which is why I said if there's no budget, I understand.

              But the reality is writers are a commidity (I run a writing service, so I'm not belittling their value), and "SEOers" are a commodity. If you're teaming up with one or the other based on nothing more than the fact they know how to do something you don't, it doesn't make sense.

              Again, if budget is an issue, I get it.

              My point is, one of you has an idea for a site. And because you don't know how to write great content, you partner with someone and give them 50%. You could get the same great content at a fraction of that price. I don't see what you gain.

              If they bring something else to the party, sure.

              I should preface this all by saying I have partners in two of my projects right now. So I'm not against the idea of partnering, but I think it should be for different reasons than we're discussing here.
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              • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
                Originally Posted by packerfan View Post

                Which is why I said if there's no budget, I understand.

                But the reality is writers are a commidity (I run a writing service, so I'm not belittling their value), and "SEOers" are a commodity. If you're teaming up with one or the other based on nothing more than the fact they know how to do something you don't, it doesn't make sense.

                Again, if budget is an issue, I get it.

                My point is, one of you has an idea for a site. And because you don't know how to write great content, you partner with someone and give them 50%. You could get the same great content at a fraction of that price. I don't see what you gain.

                If they bring something else to the party, sure.

                I should preface this all by saying I have partners in two of my projects right now. So I'm not against the idea of partnering, but I think it should be for different reasons than we're discussing here.
                Aside from the budget issue, there is the expertise that comes with a skill-set. Not forgetting a fresh view point, of course.

                For instance, if I hire a painter to paint my house, he will take a week minimum, and do everything in the most awkward way possible to justify his expense.

                The result is often not as good as I had hoped for. Whereas if you are in the business of renovating houses, partnered with a painter, you will have a perfect job, done as quickly and efficiently as possible.

                Workers do what is sufficient to meet the needs of their pay.

                Partners get creative. Often thinking of things you wouldn't, as you are not the expert in that area, and may not even be aware of what is possible.

                I would love to see a partnering of a few expert writers, SEO professionals, a programmer, a copy-writer and a designer. The paper work would be obscene, but the returns, if they came up with a good idea, would be equally impressive.

                Cheers,
                Colin Palfrey
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  • Profile picture of the author Colin Palfrey
    This sounds pretty much like what myself and Sergiu, are doing.

    I'm a writer (and a good'un) but with an absolute lack of technical knowledge.

    He is a programmer and all round genius when it comes to anything computer related, but English isn't his first language.

    We teamed up and are already doing some pretty impressive things, which I won't go into here. It is definitely one of those cases were the sum is greater than its parts, though.

    However, to make this work, we had to send several hundred emails back and forth, spend hours on Skype, and reassure ourselves, and each other that we would be better off working together.

    It has worked out very well so far, but the most important part of it, is establishing mutual trust, and a clear understanding of the deal that has been made.

    'Who does how much' really isn't an issue. We can't do the things each other do, so automatically assign a higher value to each others talents, than we do our own. I think you just need to be very sure that you trust the people you are working with.

    Cheers,
    Colin Palfrey
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    I write articles and eBooks - PM me for details!
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  • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

    Please, this thread isn't about "hooking up", it's about working out a framework to explore the hurdles and issues and possible solutions these teams face.
    Why not?

    I'd love to hook up with someone. I know it would make my work a lot easier.

    I know, trying to do everything yourself is just soooooo hard.

    I'm a copywriter and marketer and would welcome the chance to hook up with people. Maybe even form a mastermind group.
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  • Profile picture of the author O0o0O
    The best relationship between the SEO team and the Content team would be through outsourcing. The content team would set their price per unit of content, and the SEO team would set their price per job. The exchange of goods and services between the SEO team and Content team would be dictated by these set prices. As supply and demand change over time, each team will change their prices accordingly.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Here's the problems as I see them from my experiences...If these can be solved, I think many of us could make a lot more money.

      - Equitable share. What's the fair share? Is it 50/50 or should the SEOer get more? Less? I understand this will be different for each team, but where would you set the theoretical starting point?

      - The "share" also includes "man hours". How much time should each put in, in relation to the other? Should a writer work 1-2-3 hours, for every 2 hours the SEOer does?

      - What are ways to share the profit without one person having control of the money? For example, can a "rotator" be used that alternates Adsense and/or other programs?

      - Who owns the content? Can you sell a site created?

      - What's expected of each side?

      - What are the risks? The SEO has black-hat issues, writers have copyright issues, etc...

      In reality, I think the single biggest issue is finding a partner that has the same work ethic, commitment, available time and dependability.
      > Just being aware of the issues and hammering them out to the satisfaction of the individuals involved is a huge step toward success. I would also add writing down the decisions made on each issue.

      > I would add similar goals to your list. If one partner wants to build a legacy business to pass on to heirs, and the other wants to build an acquisition candidate, it could raise serious problems at key decision points.

      Originally Posted by packerfan View Post

      Which is why I said if there's no budget, I understand.

      But the reality is writers are a commidity (I run a writing service, so I'm not belittling their value), and "SEOers" are a commodity. If you're teaming up with one or the other based on nothing more than the fact they know how to do something you don't, it doesn't make sense.

      Again, if budget is an issue, I get it.

      My point is, one of you has an idea for a site. And because you don't know how to write great content, you partner with someone and give them 50%. You could get the same great content at a fraction of that price. I don't see what you gain.

      If they bring something else to the party, sure.

      I should preface this all by saying I have partners in two of my projects right now. So I'm not against the idea of partnering, but I think it should be for different reasons than we're discussing here.
      If one is looking for commodities, and can afford it, I say buy the commodities.

      If one is looking for synergy, the 2+2=5 boost, then an ongoing partnership where everyone has a stake makes sense.

      And for a startup, everyone having skin in the game usually means that everyone will do their best to make things work even if they're just playing CYA...
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  • Profile picture of the author Trivum
    It seems that unless you're looking to do something fairly unique, or neither side has money to spend on the project, then outsourcing what you don't know how to do or don't want to do is the solution (as others mentioned).

    That said, if you're looking to do something unique, then you truly will need a partner because you will be trying to build something that either hasn't been built before or has only been custom built before.

    For a lot of people, they aren't trying to do anything unique. For those who are trying to do something unique, they eventually come to a point where they know they need someone with different skill sets in order to make it happen. At that point, they either try to find that person, or they give up. Most, of course, give up (while still turning the plan over and over in their minds, slowly wearing it down and down and down until one day it simply fades away forever).
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