why cant we create database of serial refunders?

by ankur sharma 14 replies
Everybody knows there are serial refunders among us. No matter, how your product is good, there will always be scamsters out here.

Whats the issue with someone creating a script, where every wso seller can upload his "refunded list". I am not saying every refund request is "scam" request. I have also asked for couple of refunds. But i had valid reasons. But what about if someone purchase 20 wsos and then ask for 20 refunds?

I am also sure, most of these seria; refunders are those, who only buy the product to share it on illegal sharing sites. If we stop them from purchasing our product, may be our products will be shared less around the web.

I am not very good in asp.net or web apps. But i will love to have a place, where i can upload my "refund list". When every seller will upload his list, i am pretty sure, i will be blocking some people from purchasing from my site. I am pretty sure all the top gurus share their list with each other. If you buy $5k product and then ask for refund. Forget about purchasing from lot other marketers.

If we can create wsopro, i bet many warriors will love this thing as well.
#main internet marketing discussion forum #create #database #refunders #serial
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  • Profile picture of the author gotti3636
    I think what we should do is create a shared list of who has refunded products. That way we can see who is requesting refunds from nearly everyone and who has only requested one or two. That way, the WSO seller can choose who they want to add to their own blacklist.

    For example, if someone requests a refund from one of my WSOs then I will add them to the list. If their name is already on there then they will get a +1. If they then get refunds from 10 other people then they will go to +11 which means they are probably a serial refunder. Other product owners will be able to see this refund count and then add them to their blacklist if they want to.

    I think it will be best to have a counter and then let the product seller decide who they want to add to their own blacklist. For example, I would probably add anyone with a +5 or higher refund count. Others might add everyone with a +10 count to their blacklist while some people might not want to take a risk at all and just add anyone who has ever refunded a product before to their blacklist.

    So...who is up for creating something like that?
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    • Profile picture of the author ankur sharma
      Originally Posted by gotti3636 View Post

      I think what we should do is create a shared list of who has refunded products. That way we can see who is requesting refunds from nearly everyone and who has only requested one or two. That way, the WSO seller can choose who they want to add to their own blacklist.

      For example, if someone requests a refund from one of my WSOs then I will add them to the list. If their name is already on there then they will get a +1. If they then get refunds from 10 other people then they will go to +11 which means they are probably a serial refunder. Other product owners will be able to see this refund count and then add them to their blacklist if they want to.

      So...who is up for creating something like that?
      Lol something like stumble upon votes? Lol, i bet you will see some guys there with +30 ratings.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nigel Greaves
    This has come up many times in the past ankur. One of the biggest problems, certainly for Warriors from the European Union, is the fact that we are governed by such strict data protection laws.

    Sharing a customer's details in this manner would almost certainly bring more problems than a few scumbags err... I mean serial refunders.

    For the record I would love to be able to create just such a database though.

    Nigel
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    • Profile picture of the author ankur sharma
      Originally Posted by Nigel Greaves View Post

      This has come up many times in the past ankur. One of the biggest problems, certainly for Warriors from the European Union, is the fact that we are governed by such strict data protection laws.

      Sharing a customer's details in this manner would almost certainly bring more problems than a few scumbags err... I mean serial refunders.

      For the record I would love to be able to create just such a database though.

      Nigel
      well, so the law says you cannot share email addresses of buyers? Thats what the law is?
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      • Profile picture of the author Nigel Greaves
        Originally Posted by ankur sharma View Post

        well, so the law says you cannot share email addresses of buyers? Thats what the law is?
        Yep! This is a European Union directive so covers all the E.U. countries:
        The Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003

        I guess it's possible to start adding to sales letters a notice to the effect that serial refunders will be added to a blacklist but I dread to think of the effects on sales

        Nigel
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        • Profile picture of the author ankur sharma
          Originally Posted by Nigel Greaves View Post

          Yep! This is a European Union directive so covers all the E.U. countries:
          The Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003

          I guess it's possible to start adding to sales letters a notice to the effect that serial refunders will be added to a blacklist but I dread to think of the effects on sales

          Nigel

          What about adding this to TOS? Nobody reads that. Now, its not a kind of "Hall of shame" list. Lot of reputed people ask for refunds, but it is not with bad intentions or robbing seller of his hardwork. Genuine people ask refund for genuine reasons. So, if i asked for certain refund, i can be in that list with +1.

          Its upto the seller, which buyers he want to blacklist. Lets say he can only blacklist those which got rating of 30+. Someone else can download list of all users with rating 10+. But the database should be there, if someone want to use it.

          The only people who will get effected from this will be reviewers. Those who buy product for reviews and thats why may exercise they "refund power" regularly. Other then this, i do not see any other bad effect.
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  • Profile picture of the author Christian Little
    We've actually been thinking about putting together a customer blacklist for this kind of purpose. I've had a few customers that try to be really sneaking and do all kinds of **** with our hosting services.

    But privacy laws are a real problem when you start looking at something like this, regardless of what country you are in.
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    You can handle serial refunders very handily by using DLGuard. It has the option to ban customers from ever purchasing anything from you again. When someone requests a refund from me, that's where I put them. I don't get many refund requests, and the ones I get are assmonkeys who bought a website knowing exactly what they were buying and then file a Paypal dispute. They are thieves. I don't have a serial refunder problem, thanks to DLGuard.
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  • Profile picture of the author Harry Spencer
    Once the database has been created, refunders would find a way around it. Changing paypal email address isn't difficult and if that is how the system referenced each refunder it will hit a brick wall with refunders changing their email and the users who buy lots of products and ask for a few refunds being labeled serials.

    I think it is something we'll all have to live with.

    Harry
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  • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
    What if I had a great client here on WF that I didn't want working with any other vendor? All I would need to do is add him to the list of "serial refunders" and I'd be safe right?
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    • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
      Banned
      Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

      What if I had a great client here on WF that I didn't want working with any other vendor? All I would need to do is add him to the list of "serial refunders" and I'd be safe right?
      Yes indeed ... that would be among the many problems of this idea. The forum's "first and foremost rule" would appear to be another one, too.
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    • Profile picture of the author Christian Little
      Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

      What if I had a great client here on WF that I didn't want working with any other vendor? All I would need to do is add him to the list of "serial refunders" and I'd be safe right?
      There would be a lot of ways to abuse the system lol. But the biggest hurdle would be legal issues.

      I talked to our lawyer about it a few months ago and he basically said it would be asking for more trouble than it's worth if you go public with the database in any way.

      -People would get angry for having their personal information used in such a manner, and it borders on libel.
      -It violates privacy laws in almost every country
      -As soon as the database gets compromised by a hacker, all hell breaks out.
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    • Profile picture of the author Scott Burton
      Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

      You can handle serial refunders very handily by using DLGuard. It has the option to ban customers from ever purchasing anything from you again. When someone requests a refund from me, that's where I put them. I don't get many refund requests, and the ones I get are assmonkeys who bought a website knowing exactly what they were buying and then file a Paypal dispute. They are thieves. I don't have a serial refunder problem, thanks to DLGuard.
      While this is a great feature, I don't think adding someone the first time they request a refund is ncessarily a good practice. YMMV, but I have had a customer who bought a product from me, three days later asked for a refund under my refund guarantee, so I gave them the refund. No hard feelings, they complied with the terms I set forth, so I did as agreed and refunded.

      Fast forward 3 months. This same customer came to me, bought a related product that cost about the same. Did not request a refund, and did not file a dispute.

      They asked a few questions. We talked about a few things regarding the product. Their questions helped me to develop the next generation of the product.

      You know what they did? They bought the next generation of the product.

      Over about 11 more months after that, they bought 4 other products from me and didn't ask for another refund. (The original refund was about 11-14 dollars. Over the next year and a half, they spent about 160 dollars on my products without requesting a single refund.)


      Originally Posted by Harry Spencer View Post

      Once the database has been created, refunders would find a way around it. Changing paypal email address isn't difficult and if that is how the system referenced each refunder it will hit a brick wall with refunders changing their email and the users who buy lots of products and ask for a few refunds being labeled serials.
      As is the case with any defense, it's only a matter of time before someone finds their way around it.

      Depending how this system was implemented, many people could be labeled serial refunders because I can guarantee there are honest customers out there who have requested 1, 3, 5, even 15 refunds in their lives. So if you set an automatic threshold value, then honest people get caught in it, or you have to set it so high that a serial refunder takes a while to get spotted.

      Originally Posted by mattlaclear View Post

      What if I had a great client here on WF that I didn't want working with any other vendor? All I would need to do is add him to the list of "serial refunders" and I'd be safe right?
      And there's your next reason... Sooner or later someone would attempt to abuse the system for their own purposes inconsistent with the system's intended purpose.
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  • Profile picture of the author jazbo
    How about a shared fund to pay hit men to track them down and eliminate them?
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