Goodbye to being a poker affiliate...

86 replies
My jaw dropped at this BS that just came through:

Three largest online poker sites indicted and shut down by FBI | Money & Company | Los Angeles Times
#affiliate #goodbye #poker
  • Profile picture of the author ReachOneMedia
    Man .... I was playing and having a lot of fun @ pokerstar

    I guess I'll wait for the new site to emerge...
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    • Profile picture of the author IcedSEO-CEO
      Banned
      Originally Posted by ReachOneMedia View Post

      Man .... I was playing and having a lot of fun @ pokerstar

      I guess I'll wait for the new site to emerge...
      None of them is coming up anytime soon... it will be such a long wait
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  • Profile picture of the author WebRank1
    No way... Those charges can't stick right?
    Damn I don't even know what to say other than 'Only sure things are Death and Taxes'.
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  • Profile picture of the author CheapTrafficDude
    Guess we won't see full tilt poker on TV anymore...
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  • Profile picture of the author BloggingPro
    So the first thing I noticed after reading the article is that the first person who commented is the former professional wrestler Hacksaw Jim Duggan. Cracked me up.

    Anyway. The online poker sites found a way to profit previously and they will find a way to get off the hook here. These guys have made millions of dollars which means they can easily afford top tier lawyer to get them out of this.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan Triplett
      You hit the nail on the head there.
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  • Profile picture of the author AceOfShirts
    Hard to believe this is the biggest crime they have to investigate. Glad I didn't have any money in my accounts. I'm guessing on the accounts are frozen.
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    • Profile picture of the author BloggingPro
      Originally Posted by dnsg View Post

      Hard to believe this is the biggest crime they have to investigate. Glad I didn't have any money in my accounts. I'm guessing on the accounts are frozen.
      They want to TAX it. That's why they're putting their nose in these guy's business and finding out how they are accepting money from players here in the US.
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      • Profile picture of the author Arunabh Singh
        I am pretty sure the charges won't stick. FTP is too big of a brand to go like this. Or atleast I hope so.

        BTW anyone here actively promoting FTP?

        EDIT :-

        Just visited the FTP site only to find out that the domain has been seized by the FBI.
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        • Profile picture of the author MissLauraCatella
          Originally Posted by Arunabh Singh View Post

          I am pretty sure the charges won't stick. FTP is too big of a brand to go like this. Or atleast I hope so.

          BTW anyone here actively promoting FTP?

          EDIT :-

          Just visited the FTP site only to find out that the domain has been seized by the FBI.
          Um, what site? I just went to Full Tilt Poker .com and .net and both are up and running for me..

          Logged in and $ is still there and all of that. WHY ARE YOU GUYS SCARING THE CRAP OUT OF ME JEEEZ.
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          • Profile picture of the author misterkailo
            Originally Posted by bambii View Post

            Um, what site? I just went to Full Tilt Poker .com and .net and both are up and running for me..

            Logged in and $ is still there and all of that. WHY ARE YOU GUYS SCARING THE CRAP OUT OF ME JEEEZ.

            haha it doesn't mean they are instantly shutting them down. It takes steps and time...
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          • Profile picture of the author scrofford
            Originally Posted by bambii View Post

            Um, what site? I just went to Full Tilt Poker .com and .net and both are up and running for me..

            Logged in and $ is still there and all of that. WHY ARE YOU GUYS SCARING THE CRAP OUT OF ME JEEEZ.
            Try again...it's seized....The FBI notice is up
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      • Profile picture of the author paulie888
        Originally Posted by BloggingPro View Post

        They want to TAX it. That's why they're putting their nose in these guy's business and finding out how they are accepting money from players here in the US.
        Actually, there was an existing law in place prohibiting online casinos from taking any money from US players. They found some kind of loophole around it that enabled them to continue taking money from US residents, and now the government's trying to drop the hammer on all of the large online casino sites that are doing this.
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        • Profile picture of the author scrofford
          Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

          Actually, there was an existing law in place prohibiting online casinos from taking any money from US players. They found some kind of loophole around it that enabled them to continue taking money from US residents, and now the government's trying to drop the hammer on all of the large online casino sites that are doing this.
          It's still because the U.S. government can't tax the players after winnings. At a real casino they can. The law was actually put into place because of this and it's that simple. And yes, now the U.S. government wants to drop the hammer and get their cut.
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          • Profile picture of the author Chris Sorrell
            There's some peeps on the highstakesdb.com forum going nuts over it. Some have thousands of dollars now languishing somewhere in full tilt or jokerstars.

            It's no different to what happens to brothels the world over every day. The police shut em down, the owners get photographed being arrested then the next day it's back to business after 'negotiations' have taken place.

            By the way, aren't their servers held on Indian reservation land? Aren't they out of federal juristiction?
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Aren't they out of federal juristiction?
              Maybe that's what they thought. To claim Native American status - you have to have Native American blood. Those providing the servers might be immune from prosecution - isn't that a hoot?

              Anyone who thinks this is not a serious prosecution is fooling himself. When the FBI, DOJ and IRS prosecute - loopholes can become sink holes.

              kay
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              • Profile picture of the author sportsfan54
                Well the sites are working for me which is good

                I been playing poker online for a long time and a large part of my income is from online poker. I never would have thought Id be playing poker online for cash but I found out for some reason I was really good at it.

                Well I hope these companies get these issues sorted out.
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              • Profile picture of the author James Sides
                It kind of blows my mind that people are defending these sites....

                Now, let me just say that before 2006 I earned a living playing online poker so I LOVE poker and LOVE online poker but I think people are overlooking the issue here.

                These guys are laundering money. That's a pretty serious offense. I agree they need to be prosecuted.

                Just my two cents,

                James

                P.s I also agree that if the US gov. found a way to tax these sites they'd be fine with em.> They hide behind a "moral" smoke screen when its really about $$$.
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            • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
              Originally Posted by sorrellaff View Post

              It's no different to what happens to brothels the world over every day.
              In Germany, being a prostitute is now a recognized occupation, they can even claim unemployment.

              So "all over the world" is not really "all over the world"
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  • Profile picture of the author Maayan Gordon
    I know there are a lot of rules about the legality surrounding gambling sites.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel44
    I read this earlier, they are just perusing the top executives for taxes, not taking the entire businesses down. If anything comes out of this it will just be a big fine.
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    • Profile picture of the author Matt Ward
      I feel bad for the people who make a living from online poker. It's obviously not the same as IM, but similar in ways. I know there are people with thousands of dollars in their online poker accounts. Really sucks.
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    • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Daniel44 View Post

      I read this earlier, they are just perusing the top executives for taxes, not taking the entire businesses down. If anything comes out of this it will just be a big fine.
      You might want to read it again.

      Eleven executives at PokerStars, Full Tilt Poker, Absolute Poker and a number of their affiliates were charged with bank fraud and money laundering in an indictment unsealed in a Manhattan court.
      Bank fraud and money laundering charges ain't no joke.
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    • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
      These guy's wont just get fines.

      When the Fed's bring down a huge case like this, they have all their ducks in a row, and they always have some little BS they can get you on too if they miss the big one. Overall conviction rates in the Federal system are over 95%. These guys will be going to jail for a long time.



      Originally Posted by Daniel44 View Post

      I read this earlier, they are just perusing the top executives for taxes, not taking the entire businesses down. If anything comes out of this it will just be a big fine.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tarheel
    I am an online poker pro. Today was indeed a crummy day. They have frozen 75 bank accounts associated w/ the sites and the sites have in turn suspended americans from playing. Also, the DOJ has seized the domains of the related sites. It appears much more serious than just going after a few top execs. One of my first thoughts after hearing the news was to come here to warrior and try to find myself a new career. :-) If anyone wants to trade some poker lessons for some IM advice give me a shout! hah
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    • Profile picture of the author Chazzer
      Originally Posted by Tarheel View Post

      I am an online poker pro. Today was indeed a crummy day. They have frozen 75 bank accounts associated w/ the sites and the sites have in turn suspended americans from playing. Also, the DOJ has seized the domains of the related sites. It appears much more serious than just going after a few top execs. One of my first thoughts after hearing the news was to come here to warrior and try to find myself a new career. :-) If anyone wants to trade some poker lessons for some IM advice give me a shout! hah
      Hey Tarheel --

      Why not sit down and write an ebook on playing professional poker? Or videos on poker lessons. I haven't checked the stats, but I'm fairly sure that there's a market for it.

      That way you can create your new career out of your old one.


      Chazz
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      • Profile picture of the author Tarheel
        Originally Posted by Chazzer View Post

        Hey Tarheel --

        Why not sit down and write an ebook on playing professional poker? Or videos on poker lessons. I haven't checked the stats, but I'm fairly sure that there's a market for it.

        That way you can create your new career out of your old one.


        Chazz

        Thanks for the replay Chazz. There are about 5 or 6 companies out there offering training videos out there for a subscription fee of ~$30/mo. for access to their videos. These sites are now well established w/ many well known pros making videos for them.

        There are also ebooks within the poker community that sell for anywhere from $500-$3000. These are written by top level pros and are geared towards high level play. I could write an ebook geared towards the public, but i would need help on how to market it. Is that something that i would set up a site around and market and sell directly?
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  • Profile picture of the author mojojuju
    Just came here to post this

    WARNING
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    :)

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  • Profile picture of the author MissLauraCatella
    Ohhhh this is soo lame. I was wondering when the govt was going to come for their cut. >.<
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Q
    Banned
    I really don't like poker at all, which is why I didn't play a single poker game in my entire life. You are betting for luck, not for an ensured lifetime opportunity. Lesson learned guys, don't fall into this trap anymore.
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    • Profile picture of the author MissLauraCatella
      Originally Posted by lamposproject View Post

      I really don't like poker at all, which is why I didn't play a single poker game in my entire life. You are betting for luck, not for an ensured lifetime opportunity. Lesson learned guys, don't fall into this trap anymore.
      Poker is a skill game. Anyone can win one hand, good card players win consistently. Unlike other games of chance where the house has the odds over the long term, good poker players who make the correct statistical decision at the appropriate time will be "up" over the long term.
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    • Profile picture of the author Coby
      Originally Posted by lamposproject View Post

      I really don't like poker at all, which is why I didn't play a single poker game in my entire life. You are betting for luck, not for an ensured lifetime opportunity. Lesson learned guys, don't fall into this trap anymore.
      Saying poker is all about luck is just like when people say IM is all about luck...

      If that were they case I guess the tops poker pros (and IM gurus) are just the luckiest dudes around... Especially Phil Ivey, Phil Hellmuth, Doyle Brunson, Etc

      I used to play poker both online and live for a living...

      Luckily I got burned out on that and turned to IM

      This really sucks for all the folks who make a living from these sites both as an affiliate and the actual players themselves.

      But I knew this would happen eventually ever since the government banned US credit cards from being used in the online poker rooms a few years back...

      Guess this is another case of not keeping all your eggs in one basket...
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  • Profile picture of the author skwurl
    i just started getting interested in poker last week, and was looking around for one to join after i learned a bit more about the game. so is there no point now? i'm also interested in blackjack.... so is this FBI stuff for all gambling type games, or just poker?
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  • Profile picture of the author RSingha
    time to switch banners from tilt/stars to party
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  • Profile picture of the author Ehsan_am
    I knew this was coming. Something similar happened here in France. The big difference was that the government was upfront and asked for money instead of playing games. They gave out licences and now it is virtually impossible to be a winner on an online poker table here in France due to taxes.
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  • Profile picture of the author Nisip
    Banned
    IM is unfortunately next
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    • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
      Originally Posted by Nisip View Post

      IM is unfortunately next
      :rolleyes:

      Oh really? Do you have a link/info to back that up? Did your inside man at the FBI tell you that?
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    • Profile picture of the author scrofford
      Originally Posted by Nisip View Post

      IM is unfortunately next
      I really hope you are joking because if you aren't, that statement really shouldn't even be acknowledged. IM isn't next. IM is evolving and growing and the internet is only going to become a better and better place for business. Yes the U.S. government will continue to try and be big brother and control everyone, but I really don't think they'll be able to.
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    • Profile picture of the author scrofford
      Originally Posted by Nisip View Post

      IM is unfortunately next
      And how do you figure? Business on the internet is constantly growing and people in the U.S. do have to pay business taxes and since IM is a BUSINESS, the U.S. does get their cut with taxes.
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      • Profile picture of the author paulie888
        Originally Posted by scrofford View Post

        And how do you figure? Business on the internet is constantly growing and people in the U.S. do have to pay business taxes and since IM is a BUSINESS, the U.S. does get their cut with taxes.
        It's sad to see people with this type of fearful and paranoid mentality making ignorant predictions like this - no wonder there are so many impressionable people out there who get their chains yanked by the Gurus and their words.
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    • Profile picture of the author High Horsepower
      Originally Posted by Nisip View Post

      IM is unfortunately next
      A lot of people are debating you, but I for one will partially agree with you.

      The Internet used to be free from State Taxes (in the US), now all these states are passing laws to collect tax. I suspect in the next 12 months many more states will pass laws that will destroy affiliate marketing for many people.

      The result, Amazon and a bunch of other huge companies are pulling out of these states. I know of several people who are scrambling to replace their incomes now that they can no longer be affiliates.

      We have Google banning Affiliates left and right, closing Adwords, Adsense accounts with NO prior notice.

      Huge companies are now dominating local search, more people are getting into IM than ever before, etc...

      Is there a future for us, I guess time will tell.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Sorrell
        Originally Posted by High Horsepower View Post

        A lot of people are debating you, but I for one will partially agree with you.

        The Internet used to be free from State Taxes (in the US), now all these states are passing laws to collect tax. I suspect in the next 12 months many more states will pass laws that will destroy affiliate marketing for many people.

        The result, Amazon and a bunch of other huge companies are pulling out of these states. I know of several people who are scrambling to replace their incomes now that they can no longer be affiliates.

        We have Google banning Affiliates left and right, closing Adwords, Adsense accounts with NO prior notice.

        Huge companies are now dominating local search, more people are getting into IM than ever before, etc...

        Is there a future for us, I guess time will tell.


        Some good reasons here on why it's so important to have a good sized, responsive list. If all else fails it's a way to weather the storm.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
    NONE of these charges will hold up against the sites or site owners themselves.
    PokerStars is based in Dublin, Ireland and Full Tilt Poker is based out of Alderney, a tiny island ruled as a British dependency. These are not US-based sites or companies, and as such are not required to submit to US laws.

    The US government knows that, which is why it is only illegal to transfer money to these sites from banks, credit unions, or financial institutions in the United States. Playing poker online itself is 100% legal.

    The sites are already back up, and I highly doubt much will come of this. The market is WAY too big to just go away.
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

      NONE of these charges will hold up against the sites or site owners themselves.
      PokerStars is based in Dublin, Ireland and Full Tilt Poker is based out of Alderney, a tiny island ruled as a British dependency. These are not US-based sites or companies, and as such are not required to submit to US laws.

      The US government knows that, which is why it is only illegal to transfer money to these sites from banks, credit unions, or financial institutions in the United States. Playing poker online itself is 100% legal.

      The sites are already back up, and I highly doubt much will come of this. The market is WAY too big to just go away.
      I find that there are also many casino sites established in offshore havens such as Antigua, but they were wise enough not to accept money from US players after the Wire Act was passed in 2006, making it illegal for online gambling establishments to accept money wired from US banks and financial institutions.
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      • Profile picture of the author E. Brian Rose
        Originally Posted by paulie888 View Post

        I find that there are also many casino sites established in offshore havens such as Antigua, but they were wise enough not to accept money from US players after the Wire Act was passed in 2006, making it illegal for online gambling establishments to accept money wired from US banks and financial institutions.
        Actually, the Wire Act is from 1969, I believe. In 2006, they passed the Safe Port Act, which had the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA) embedded into it.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          There's a good analysis (I thought it was good anyway) at

          Analysis of Internet Gambling Funding Ban

          about the 2006 law, how it applies and to whom.

          The Abba song "Money Money Money" comes to mind:p
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    • Profile picture of the author James Campbell
      Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

      NONE of these charges will hold up against the sites or site owners themselves.
      PokerStars is based in Dublin, Ireland and Full Tilt Poker is based out of Alderney, a tiny island ruled as a British dependency. These are not US-based sites or companies, and as such are not required to submit to US laws.

      The US government knows that, which is why it is only illegal to transfer money to these sites from banks, credit unions, or financial institutions in the United States. Playing poker online itself is 100% legal.

      The sites are already back up, and I highly doubt much will come of this. The market is WAY too big to just go away.
      Problem is, the owners kept a lot of the assets in the US and a lot of the money in the US.

      Also, they are not all back up, it takes some time for DNS to completely propagate. So between now and the next 24-36 hours or so, the sites will start to come offline and you'll see that stupid FBI disclaimer.

      ICANN is located in the US, and the US govt (ICE dept to be exact) has been (in my opinion) unlawfully seizing domains of quite a few people. Including these domains.

      I wish you were right in your assumptions, but you're not.
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      • Profile picture of the author paulie888
        Originally Posted by James Campbell View Post

        Problem is, the owners kept a lot of the assets in the US and a lot of the money in the US.

        Also, they are not all back up, it takes some time for DNS to completely propagate. So between now and the next 24-36 hours or so, the sites will start to come offline and you'll see that stupid FBI disclaimer.

        ICANN is located in the US, and the US govt (ICE dept to be exact) has been (in my opinion) unlawfully seizing domains of quite a few people. Including these domains.

        I wish you were right in your assumptions, but you're not.
        James, you're absolutely right. The real issue with these particular online casinos is that they have a substantial US presence, and I'm sure that the authorities also discovered that they were somehow skirting around the rules and accepting money that originated from within the US. Once this occurs, the authorities are able to easily crack down on them.

        Many of the online casino and poker affiliate programs are incredibly lucrative, but obviously they've been crippled considerably by the fact that you can't market to players in the US anymore.

        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
        Originally Posted by James Campbell View Post

        Problem is, the owners kept a lot of the assets in the US and a lot of the money in the US.

        Also, they are not all back up, it takes some time for DNS to completely propagate. So between now and the next 24-36 hours or so, the sites will start to come offline and you'll see that stupid FBI disclaimer.

        ICANN is located in the US, and the US govt (ICE dept to be exact) has been (in my opinion) unlawfully seizing domains of quite a few people. Including these domains.

        I wish you were right in your assumptions, but you're not.
        :rolleyes:
        And I wish you knew more about this topic than what you learned browsing Google for 2 minutes, but I guess we're both gonna be dissapointed.

        The fact of the matter is, the VAST majority of ALL of these companies assets are located well outside not just US legal grounds, but the REACH of the US government. With millions being funnelled from US banks and lending houses to these companies, its inevitable that some of this money will remain in the US(and thus be subject to this seizure) but the companies themselves, and more importantly the INDUSTRY and medium will be completely fine.

        Where there is a multi-million dollar industry with prospects begging for an outlet to spend their time and money, there will ALWAYS be companies finding a way to get it. These giant companies probably know a bit more than you do, so I'm not too worried.
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        • Profile picture of the author kellyburdes
          You can make the same argument with the cocaine cartels buddy. There is a massive market, and even though it's illegal to service that market, there will always be people lining up to profit from servicing them.

          Just because they are offshore doesn't do anything to keep them out of the reach of US law if they violated American laws. Back to cocaine, many of the cartel bosses who are extradited to face trial in the US have never set foot on American soil, and they don't do any of their business in the United States per say. Never the less the product they offer ends up here, being used by American's, and so it's well within the scope of the DOJ's reach to prosecute them.

          Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

          :rolleyes:
          And I wish you knew more about this topic than what you learned browsing Google for 2 minutes, but I guess we're both gonna be dissapointed.

          The fact of the matter is, the VAST majority of ALL of these companies assets are located well outside not just US legal grounds, but the REACH of the US government. With millions being funnelled from US banks and lending houses to these companies, its inevitable that some of this money will remain in the US(and thus be subject to this seizure) but the companies themselves, and more importantly the INDUSTRY and medium will be completely fine.

          Where there is a multi-million dollar industry with prospects begging for an outlet to spend their time and money, there will ALWAYS be companies finding a way to get it. These giant companies probably know a bit more than you do, so I'm not too worried.
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          • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
            Originally Posted by kellyburdes View Post

            You can make the same argument with the cocaine cartels buddy. There is a massive market, and even though it's illegal to service that market, there will always be people lining up to profit from servicing them.

            Just because they are offshore doesn't do anything to keep them out of the reach of US law if they violated American laws. Back to cocaine, many of the cartel bosses who are extradited to face trial in the US have never set foot on American soil, and they don't do any of their business in the United States per say. Never the less the product they offer ends up here, being used by American's, and so it's well within the scope of the DOJ's reach to prosecute them.
            Point out ANY fact or detail I stated thats wrong. I don't think you can, because not only are you comparing online poker to cocaine cartels(apples and oranges in a BIG way) but you don't seem to have a handle on the fact that just because a domain name is registered in the US and some of the company's assets are in the US, that doesn't mean that the DOJ can seize the company, legally fine them billions with just cause, and send everyone to jail etc like all of the panicked people in this thread seem to think.

            The sites are already back up, as previously stated, have MORE than enough money to cover their behinds here, and the companies and the medium which will be doing just FINE. Expect big settlements, SOME jail time for senior execs in the US, and then all will be back to normal with maybe a domain change and a new way to get money from US players.

            Its cool you're having fun playing a lawyer on the internet, but its a good bet that these multi-billion dollar companies with their teams of lawyers know a bit more on the topic than you.
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            • Profile picture of the author James Campbell
              Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

              Point out ANY fact or detail I stated thats wrong. I don't think you can, because not only are you comparing online poker to cocaine cartels(apples and oranges in a BIG way) but you don't seem to have a handle on the fact that just because a domain name is registered in the US and some of the company's assets are in the US, that doesn't mean that the DOJ can seize the company, legally fine them billions with just cause, and send everyone to jail etc like all of the panicked people in this thread seem to think.

              The sites are already back up, as previously stated, have MORE than enough money to cover their behinds here, and the companies and the medium which will be doing just FINE. Expect big settlements, SOME jail time for senior execs in the US, and then all will be back to normal with maybe a domain change and a new way to get money from US players.

              Its cool you're having fun playing a lawyer on the internet, but its a good bet that these multi-billion dollar companies with their teams of lawyers know a bit more on the topic than you.

              Not just that man. What the other poster failed to realize is that many countries have extradition treaties with the US for serious criminal acts which are very specific, such as murder. However, for "financial" crimes that aren't crimes in the country where they are located, they cannot be extradited. Even for more serious crimes, in some countries, (such as brazil I believe, can't remember exactly), if you get married and have a child in that country, you cannot be extradited for any reason.

              US law is not world law, no matter how many people want to believe it is.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Sol
    pokerstars is up and running... they just changed the domain from .com to .eu
    Full tilt is working as well...

    USA believes they are the only country on this planet but they aren't... so the poker sites (and their affiliate programs) will keep on doing what they've been doing. FBI seized some domain names, boo-hoo.

    A lot of countries (just look at Ukraine and Russia) recently banned OFFLINE gambling so most of the people went online and it will take YEARS till they ban Online Gambling (if that will actually ever happen). These are just 2 countries out of hundreds where more and more people are starting to play poker online.
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    • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
      Originally Posted by Alex Sol View Post

      pokerstars is up and running... they just changed the domain from .com to .eu
      Full tilt is working as well...

      USA believes they are the only country on this planet but they aren't... so the poker sites (and their affiliate programs) will keep on doing what they've been doing. FBI seized some domain names, boo-hoo.

      EXACTLY like I said, the companies and the industry are fine. I'm glad the FEDs thought it was a great plan to waste tax dollars on these investigations and seizures just to result in a temporary half-day annoyance for online poker players and companies. :rolleyes:
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      • Profile picture of the author Patrick Pretty
        Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post


        EXACTLY like I said, the companies and the industry are fine. I'm glad the FEDs thought it was a great plan to waste tax dollars on these investigations and seizures just to result in a temporary half-day annoyance for online poker players and companies. :rolleyes:
        Your sarcasm notwithstanding, you should know that there are REAL victims and IM ties to this case. In December, the FTC sued Jeremy Johnson, 10 corporations and 51 SHELL companies in a case that alleged a massive continuity billing scheme and a scam to extort customers into not filing chargebacks.

        "Defendants have employed a variety of stratagems to continue and expand their scam, thereby causing unreimbursed consumer injury to mount to more than $275 million since 2006," the FTC charged in its complaint.

        "They have also attempted to drive down their chargeback rates by threatening to report consumers who seek chargebacks to an Internet consumer blacklist they operate called 'BadCustomer.com' that will 'result in member merchants blocking [the consumer] from making future purchases online!' And they have attempted to counter the large number of complaints about their conduct by flooding the Internet with supposedly independent
        positive articles and other web pages."

        At least two of the defendants arrested Friday have ties to Johnson or companies referenced in the FTC complaint. One of them is a Utah banker whose small bank was ordered by the FDIC in November to stop doing business with the Johnson-related entities. The other is a purported business partner of Johnson in a payment-processing company that allegedly was among a group of companies "that obtained accounts at U. S. banks for the Poker Companies."

        Friday's case is not merely a "poker case"; it is a bank-fraud and money-laundering case that alleges the operators created illicit conduits to keep an illegal scheme intact -- up to and including masking gambling payments "as payments to hundreds of non-existent online merchants purporting to sell merchandise such as jewelry and golf balls."

        It also is worth noting that five U.S. banks failed Friday. One of them -- a small Georgia bank now in FDIC receivership -- once held funds linked to the alleged AdSurfDaily Ponzi scheme, which gathered $110 million after being peddled globally by folks who called themselves Internet Marketers.

        There is a "big picture" here that, for whatever reason, many IMers refuse to see: No business -- brick-and-mortar or virtual -- can be confident of bright futures if the money-launderers continue to pollute banks with proceeds from illegal schemes. Florida, for example, is bleeding out into the Caribbean -- in no small measure because of online fraud schemes that have sucked away billions of dollars of wealth.

        Patrick
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    • Profile picture of the author mattlaclear
      Originally Posted by Nisip View Post

      IM is unfortunately next
      What facts are you basing your statement on? I can't wait to see your sources.

      Originally Posted by Alex Sol View Post

      USA believes they are the only country on this planet but they aren't...
      Who exactly is the USA in your opinion? It's citizens? It's government? That is a pretty broad statement if you ask me.
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    • Profile picture of the author dc_publius
      Originally Posted by Alex Sol View Post

      pokerstars is up and running... they just changed the domain from .com to .eu
      Full tilt is working as well...

      USA believes they are the only country on this planet but they aren't... so the poker sites (and their affiliate programs) will keep on doing what they've been doing. FBI seized some domain names, boo-hoo.
      I think you are completely confused on what this means - and to whom.

      This action is taken by the USA government against a business entity operating in the USA and servicing USA players. As a consequence of this indictment, the 3 sites have banned all USA players from playing and people are not even able to cash out, including me.

      This has nothing to do with European or Asian players. This has everything to do with USA government regulating business and its citizens... you know... sort of like every government in the world decides what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in their lands?
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      • Profile picture of the author Tarheel
        Luke you are quite obnoxious. Per your request, here are the things you said that are wrong...

        "I'm glad the FEDs thought it was a great plan to waste tax dollars on these investigations and seizures just to result in a temporary half-day annoyance for online poker players and companies"

        Kelly was right, the feds dont issue an indictment like this without having their ducks in a row. This will be a long fight that has had immediate and severe consequence to not only the American market, but the industry as a whole.

        "The sites are already back up, and I highly doubt much will come of this."

        No, they're not. The sites are not allowing americans to play leaving players and affiliates scrambling. Also, hundreds of millions of dollars of players money is stuck in limbo, not knowing when or even if we'll ever get it back. I've accepted that my money is likely gone.

        "...that doesn't mean that the DOJ can seize the company, legally fine them billions with just cause, and send everyone to jail etc like all of the panicked people in this thread seem to think."

        They seem to think they can. This is exactly what will be fought in court.

        "The fact of the matter is, the VAST majority of ALL of these companies assets are located well outside not just US legal grounds, but the REACH of the US government."

        They just froze $30 billion of Libya's assets, i dont think they have a problem w/ a few poker companies. Also, interpol in the states is run by the department of justice. They have been contacted regarding this.

        "These are not US-based sites or companies, and as such are not required to submit to US laws."

        This is your opinion on the way things should be and has nothing to do w/ actual law or the way things work.


        Now stop insulting people and acting like you know more than anyone else here.
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  • Profile picture of the author madison_avenue
    I noticed that Betfair the world's largest Internet betting exchange, based in England UK, doesn't accept US customers. They must have been being careful.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ducksauce
    Post#32 saidI find that there are also many casino sites established in offshore havens such as Antigua, but they were wise enough not to accept money from US players after the Wire Act was passed in 2006, making it illegal for online gambling establishments to accept money wired from US banks and financial institutions.

    How about prosecuting US banks and financial institutions who sent the money?

    So USA law is imposed upon any biz in any country? So some little biz in Malaysia accepts a Canadian who is also a USA resident and the USA Gov say that they can not and charge the Malaysian abiding by his countries law? (not have to be casino related of course, just an example)

    Is this any different than driving on a German auto-barn with no speed restriction faster than you would be allowed to in USA and getting a speeding ticket from the USA Gov? I really do not want to see the down fall of America, but sometimes I just don't get it. Have these online casinos been running with peoples money and blatant fraud? (I don't know much about this industry)
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    • Profile picture of the author Tarheel
      These companies and more importantly the industry is NOT fine. You're grossly underestimating the power of the department of justice. Online poker is not just a multimillion, but multibillion $ industry. And while they have the money to fight back, the DOJ could easily bring it down. In 2006, they bullied the owner of the largest site at the time, Party Poker, to paying $300 million w/ just the threat of prosecution. In 2007, they froze over $50 million of online wallet neteller. In 2009, they just seized $30 million in bank accounts from processors. This time, they have frozen 75 bank accounts and are seeking $3 billion+ from the sites and they have indictments (something they've never had before). The US southern district of new york office has been behind all of this. These recent events have been brought about as part of a plea bargain from a former payment processor who brings inside information on how the poker sites payment systems work.

      Basically, before UIGEA in 2006, there were hundreds of sites offering online poker to americans. The passage of that bill coupled w/ the $ seizures bullied 95% of those sites into leaving the american market. The 3 affected yesterday were basically the ones that stayed and continued servicing the american market. If the DOJ takes them down, there is nothing left.

      As of last night the sites have chosen not to suspend games to americans and all cashier activities including depositing or withdrawing have been suspended as well. In the next few days we will see how the sites fully react, but this is setting up to possibly be more than just a battle over money laundering and could possibly end up serving as the big battle to remove any gray area in the legality of online poker. But this battle would take years and in the meantime americans would not be able to play poker and there's no telling how long it will take (if ever) until the players are given their money back.
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  • Profile picture of the author Regional Warrior
    I just went to Poker Stars and the site is up in Australia so it would only be the USA that cant get a login

    Btw this is from the local newspaper , may give an answer to the why this happened

    Had to be an Aussie

    "
    DANIEL TZVETKOFF, the fallen Australian internet tycoon turned FBI informant, may have brought down the multibillion-dollar US online poker industry.
    The Brisbane entrepreneur, 28, is believed to have been key to charges against 11 people, including the founders of three of the biggest internet poker companies in the US, over alleged fraud and money laundering.
    The sites PokerStars, Full Tilt Poker and Absolute Poker have been shut down."


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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Of course it's only the U.S. - that's the point of the prosecution. After the 2006 law, many gambling sites disallowed U.S. participation and they are fine. The appeals to the new law were denied in 2009. It seems during that time period some large gaming sites looked for ways to get around the law without leaving the profitable U.S. market. Bad move if true.

      The company may be outside the U.S. - but that's one reason countries have extradition treaties in place, isn't it? Making the charge "money laundering" makes this a big deal.

      If banks allowed funds or credit cards to be used for gambling, they should also be targets....but won't hold my breath on that one. They'll turn over evidence and get a pass most likely.

      I've worked in gaming for 17 years. We had the top poker room on the coast prior to Katrina and pro players say it's strategy, luck, risk management and self discipline.

      The 2006 law and this prosecution isn't about poker or people - it's about money.

      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author RhondaG
    These sites are only shut down to US players, not shut down completely the way I understand it. However I could be wrong. If they are still open to the rest of the world, then affiliates should just target those countries.

    As for US players getting their money, don't count on it. I only have $9 on one site, but when I tried to remove it, they said not allowed......BUT not to worry my money was safe! lol. Yeah safe for how long, 1 year , 2 years. So I will just chalk this up to a lesson learned and hope they get it straightened out soon.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Faber
    Internet Marketing will be fine. Affiliate marketing, on the other hand, may well become more difficult, as the state and federal governments get their way.
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  • Profile picture of the author uleesgold
    Banned
    people should mind their own business.
    live and let live.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim_Carter
    I'm in Canada and all three sites now show the FBI warning.

    Pokerstars.net shows up, but that may not be associated with the rest.
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    Open a canadian checking account.

    -g
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    • Profile picture of the author paulie888
      Originally Posted by GarrieWilson View Post

      Open a canadian checking account.

      -g
      It's funny how just crossing over to a neighboring country makes the scenario completely different. These online casinos will pretty much welcome anyone and everyone - unless you have a US bank account!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jake Gray
    Tax dollars at work!
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  • When governments feel the need to over-watch their citizens and step beyond what should be their natural boundaries, it's a sign that something's gone fundamentally wrong along the way...
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Worner
    Lol, you guys are all paranoid, in case you havent't been paying attention to the situation, many states in the US have already/or are in the process, of legalizing online poker.

    Multi-billion dollar industries don't disappear overnight just because the US government gets its panties in a twist. Even in the unlikely event that the US government was successful in shutting down the websites, there will always be new ones popping up and replacing them.

    At the gentleman who mentioned one of the Party Poker founders paying a huge fine to the DoJ.

    Anurag Dik**** was not obligated to pay anything, Party Poker hadn't even broken any laws, the UIGEA wasn't even in existence when Party Poker was accepting US players, and after it was passed, Party Poker closed its doors to US players. he chose to Bribe the DoJ(Under the guise of violating US law by allowing US players onto the website) to the tune of 300 Million Dollars in the hopes that if the UIGEA was lifted and online poker regulated at a federal level that Party Poker would be looked upon favorably.

    There has also been huge lobbying by the Brick n Mortar Casinos to ban online poker because it has been taking business away from them(So they say) so I think you will find there is a lot more to the story.

    Chris
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    • Profile picture of the author marine1983
      For those want to know. Full tilt is now fulltiltpoker.co.uk

      It seems they have moved on already and backup and running. Even there affiliate site is still up. Seems they have taken their first move.
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  • Profile picture of the author jiantastic
    awe shucks. I was pouring in tens of thousands of dollars playing my favorite game....
    now I have to play at live tables which I do not have time for...
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  • Profile picture of the author YellowGreenMedia
    America the land of the free LMAO...
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  • Profile picture of the author Sonomacats
    Let's face it, they all want their cut. And I suspect this is just the beginning.

    As to IM being next, that's already happening.

    On this year's tax return, California now has a line item where you are expected to calculate the amount of sales tax you did not pay on items you purchased online and give it to the state. (Another reason I'm bailing out of California.) At a 9% sales tax, just think about how much that adds to a $47 product.

    At some point, all IM sellers are going to have to charge sales tax or disclose the sales they made to different states so those states can then go after the purchasers who didn't pay sales tax. Or some variation on that, would be my guess.

    Look at what's happening with Amazon. I think that's just the beginning.

    If you can set up an LLC or "permanent address" from a mail drop (like Mail Boxes Etc.) in Wyoming, Nevada, or New Mexico then you can probably get around a lot of this for awhile. But at some point, I suspect every state will be putting their fingers in the pie, not to mention the IRS.

    Maybe setting up a Canadian "permanent address" would be a smart move. It's something I'm certainly considering.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Franklin
    Interesting thing about poker.....

    Just before I got into IM, I was doing the online poker thing and I knew a lot of local guys who did online poker full time.....Some of them stopped and went into IM and other online ventures and others continued to do poker up to this day and built up some nice 4-5 figure bankrolls.

    I just pray that these sites will release the funds to them and not take their sweet time like one site did (which shall remain nameless).

    I think those brick and mortar casinos will see a huge influx of players. They are one of the bigger lobbyists too...Hmmm
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  • Profile picture of the author JamesGw
    This ban on online gambling is asinine. I don't know why it's even in place.
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  • Profile picture of the author ShadyRay
    justice.gov/usao/nys/pressreleases/April11/scheinbergetalindictmentpr.pdf



    If you are interested in this case, read the above link. Interesting stuff.



    As a professional poker player, I consider myself fairly well informed on this subject. For the last three days I've immersed myself in all of the available information since I was essentially laid-off without notice on Friday. There is a lot of misinformation in this thread, but a few people have been making some of the necessary corrections. Rather than nitpick I'll just tell you my situation.



    Full Tilt and Pokerstars have stopped servicing US customers, UB/AP is still allowing play at this time. This is expected to be long-term.



    On Friday I pulled a large sum of money off of Pokerstars via wire transfer, I'm still waiting to see how that goes. Full Tilt has suspended any deposits, withdrawals, or transfers for US players. So my Full Tilt cash is locked up until... who knows.



    I have moved my play to a couple of smaller sites that still serve US customers. Of course no one is certain whether those sites will continue servicing US customers in the near future. The general consensus in the poker community is that it will be business as usual, at least for awhile.


    I own a poker site where I sell software that supports online poker players. A bit over 70% of my customers have been from outside of the US. Since poker is going strong outside of the US, there should still be plenty of opportunity in this market.


    There are currently 261,414 players on Pokerstars. That seems about equal to what it was the last time I was able to play. I doubt that Stars or Full Tilt are going anywhere (outside of the US anyway).



    So, while I'm not involved in affiliate marketing, my advice to those that are is not to panic. Update your affiliate URLs to reflect the new site URLs (pokerstars.co.uk). Maybe research some of the US friendly poker rooms (Carbon, Bodog, Cake...) or focus your effort outside of the US.
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  • Profile picture of the author madison_avenue
    Shares in UK online gaming companies without exposure to "illegal" US gamblers rocketed this morning in response to Friday night's crackdown against the three largest poker websites in America.

    Online gaming shares jump on US crackdown - Telegraph
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