I lost $32,189!!! -always micro manage your team overseas

75 replies
so I generated over $83,492 in net profit from over $115,681 in sales last month.
I had so many sales that I gave refunds and had charge backs because I couldn't fulfill them all.
my freaking outsource connections couldn't complete the assigned tasks which costs me a lot of money!!!!!

look at my Paypal refunds!
- This does not include the big checks I had to write or the CC refunds I have to issue from Authorize.net









so disheartening to see this happen.... but... I learned my lesson and never step away on vacation. Even if you are on vacation always ALWAYS micro manage and overlook everything that happens no matter how long you've been working with your outsourced connects

Looks impossible to achieve the SET IT AND FORGET IT method...
Any 7 figure earners in this forum that can give me some advice?

#$32 #189 #lost #manage #micro #overseas #team
  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    That sucks bigtime. It sounds like you need a project manager that over see's your team and cracks the whip, and solves issues.
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  • Profile picture of the author TechReviews
    If I was you, I would type in project manager on Odesk. Look for the contractor with the best feedback, they are the reliable ones. And remember that if they look too good for the money, they probably are!

    Hope this helps
    Charlie
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  • Profile picture of the author WorkitSmart
    You can always split the management responsibilities so one person isn't privy to all your 'secrets'
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  • Profile picture of the author John Romaine
    Use a confidentiality agreement and have them sign it. Thats your best option.

    Id be interested in knowing what on earth you are selling!

    * I guess youre selling physical products on ebay yes?
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    • Profile picture of the author bnwebm
      If the workers are in a different country, the laws covering a confidentiality agreement may not apply (may not be enforced by their country's legal system), unfortunately.

      Originally Posted by ramone_johnny View Post

      Use a confidentiality agreement and have them sign it. Thats your best option.
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      • Profile picture of the author Anomaly1974
        Originally Posted by bnwebm View Post

        If the workers are in a different country, the laws covering a confidentiality agreement may not apply (may not be enforced by their country's legal system), unfortunately.
        In the Philippines where I live/work, they are a co-signer of the International Copyright Treaties and as such, work-for-hire agreements, non-disclosures and even non-competes are subject to International Copyright Law.
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        • Profile picture of the author bnwebm
          But, and I mean this in a general sense, what is the likelihood another country will enforce the treaty?

          Originally Posted by Anomaly1974 View Post

          In the Philippines where I live/work, they are a co-signer of the International Copyright Treaties and as such, work-for-hire agreements, non-disclosures and even non-competes are subject to International Copyright Law.
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          • Profile picture of the author Anomaly1974
            Originally Posted by bnwebm View Post

            But, and I mean this in a general sense, what is the likelihood another country will enforce the treaty?
            Your profile does not indicate where you are from but I can see how this would be a concern ... especially for people from the US. However, here in the Philippines (And it was the same when I lived in China, Korea and Mexico as well) when a foreigner is caught making any appearance that could potentially reflect poorly on the host country, they are dealt with quickly and severely, generally by being deported.

            What are the chances? Business shut down immediately. Owner jailed immediately and deported within 24 hours of arriving in Manila. The only real issue is, when you do discover someone with no more than that in the way of morals or work ethic, you may not get your money back but you can be pretty well assured they will not be doing it to anyone else. If they have worked hard to build up a brick and mortar business where you can actually walk in the door and discuss business with them, chances are better than not that they are not going to throw it away ... especially when they count on you for their pay.

            There are indeed exceptions to every rule and nobody can prepare for every possible contingency but when you are talking about those kinds of numbers, it may literally pay you to have a little more to go on than someone's word and a lot of faith in their ability. When your business is that large, you may want to take that extra step to make sure you are getting what you are paying for ... and that they are prepared to take it to the next level as your business expands.
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            • Profile picture of the author bnwebm
              Appreciate the heads up, I hadn't realized my location wasn't indicated. Excellent information as well, and yes, I do understand that many countries will shut down a business. Unfortunately, as you pointed out, this is helpful to future potential customers and does not necessarily benefit the ones left with a bad reputation and a lot of fees, like the OP.

              Originally Posted by Anomaly1974 View Post

              Your profile does not indicate where you are from but I can see how this would be a concern ... especially for people from the US. However, here in the Philippines (And it was the same when I lived in China, Korea and Mexico as well) when a foreigner is caught making any appearance that could potentially reflect poorly on the host country, they are dealt with quickly and severely, generally by being deported.

              What are the chances? Business shut down immediately. Owner jailed immediately and deported within 24 hours of arriving in Manila. The only real issue is, when you do discover someone with no more than that in the way of morals or work ethic, you may not get your money back but you can be pretty well assured they will not be doing it to anyone else. If they have worked hard to build up a brick and mortar business where you can actually walk in the door and discuss business with them, chances are better than not that they are not going to throw it away ... especially when they count on you for their pay.

              There are indeed exceptions to every rule and nobody can prepare for every possible contingency but when you are talking about those kinds of numbers, it may literally pay you to have a little more to go on than someone's word and a lot of faith in their ability. When your business is that large, you may want to take that extra step to make sure you are getting what you are paying for ... and that they are prepared to take it to the next level as your business expands.
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  • Profile picture of the author jiantastic
    I stopped doing eBay for a long time as it takes up a lot of time on top of dealing with inventory. I like to travel and leave my business to people I hire. eCommerce was a good gig and still is. I do consulting services, buying and selling small businesses, and internet marketing packages for offline clients.

    Splitting the work sounds like a great idea! maybe hire 2-3 people for management purposes.
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  • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
    They aren't going to run with your ideas. Especially if you're outsourcing overseas, there just isn't as much opportunity as there is for us in the states. Most VA's are very honest in my opinion.

    This is a pretty big deal... you lost 40% of your profit. If this was a corporation you would be long gone LOL. I'm curious why you weren't able to foresee this problem earlier and resolve it?

    If you have 4 VA's, hire a project manager... if you need more VA's, hire another project manager. You manage those project managers. If something isn't getting done, and the team is weak, then you just fire and replace. A good project manager will make sure things are done on time, and they will let you know who the weakest link is. If the project manager says it is his/her fault... no second chances, fire and find another.

    40% loss on your profit is major! I'm sure you will do the necessary things to make sure that won't happen again!
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    • Profile picture of the author jiantastic
      Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

      They aren't going to run with your ideas. Especially if you're outsourcing overseas, there just isn't as much opportunity as there is for us in the states. Most VA's are very honest in my opinion.

      This is a pretty big deal... you lost 40% of your profit. If this was a corporation you would be long gone LOL. I'm curious why you weren't able to foresee this problem earlier and resolve it?

      If you have 4 VA's, hire a project manager... if you need more VA's, hire another project manager. You manage those project managers. If something isn't getting done, and the team is weak, then you just fire and replace. A good project manager will make sure things are done on time, and they will let you know who the weakest link is. If the project manager says it is his/her fault... no second chances, fire and find another.

      40% loss on your profit is major! I'm sure you will do the necessary things to make sure that won't happen again!
      well the people I use normally are pretty good but lately there has been issues. I am not in their country so I cannot see what is happening to their lives. I have made contact with a few more people on odesk, hopefully it'll work out. I didn't expect any problem to occur as I put my hopes on these guys to get the job done for my clients. On top of that I travel a lot. Every few days I am at a different location. because of that, now I got pissed off clients, and sour relationships.
      there goes my 2011 one million dollar year. time to stop bsing around and get back on track...

      whose with me here!?
      2012 will be my year for one million dollars in net profit
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      • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
        Originally Posted by jiantastic View Post

        well the people I use normally are pretty good but lately there has been issues. I am not in their country so I cannot see what is happening to their lives. I have made contact with a few more people on odesk, hopefully it'll work out. I didn't expect any problem to occur as I put my hopes on these guys to get the job done for my clients. On top of that I travel a lot. Every few days I am at a different location. because of that, now I got pissed off clients, and sour relationships.
        there goes my 2011 one million dollar year. time to stop bsing around and get back on track...

        whose with me here!?
        2012 will be my year for one million dollars in net profit

        Well, congratulations and I hope you keep that outlook!
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  • Profile picture of the author luckyshah290
    Yeah man ....... This Sucks ..

    When I Made my First Sale on clickbank ..
    It Was Like $20 ... I Was happy ... of Course Who Wouldn't

    But After 3 days ... my Balance Was Zero .. It Was a refund to the customer ..

    I know man ... IT SUCKS
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  • Profile picture of the author Anomaly1974
    Maybe look for professional outsourcing companies that have project managers on site, their people working in offices instead of from home and always leave their door open to you? They are not always easy to find but they are available!
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    • Profile picture of the author jiantastic
      Originally Posted by luckyshah290 View Post

      Yeah man ....... This Sucks ..

      When I Made my First Sale on clickbank ..
      It Was Like $20 ... I Was happy ... of Course Who Wouldn't

      But After 3 days ... my Balance Was Zero .. It Was a refund to the customer ..

      I know man ... IT SUCKS
      thats a bummer. have you scaled up your system since then?



      Originally Posted by Anomaly1974 View Post

      Maybe look for professional outsourcing companies that have project managers on site, their people working in offices instead of from home and always leave their door open to you? They are not always easy to find but they are available!
      I know! it's very very hard to find a reliable help. people would say anything and pretend like the best worker in the world until you get them to work for you for a while... I'll keep looking, now it sucks because I won't have time to read up on other things where I can use to scale up this business for at least for a while.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ralf Skirr
      Originally Posted by Anomaly1974 View Post

      Maybe look for professional outsourcing companies that have project managers on site, their people working in offices instead of from home and always leave their door open to you? They are not always easy to find but they are available!
      While that sounds good in theory, in reality these companies and their managers are not necessarily working in YOUR best interest.

      In my experience it's safer, giving better results, and costs only half the money to find reliable people yourself.

      Just like in any offline business, you have to screen many people to find the good ones.

      Ralf
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Faber
    It looks like your traveling is costing you a bit more than the cost of a hotel room and a plane ticket!
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    • Profile picture of the author Anomaly1974
      Originally Posted by Steve Faber View Post

      It looks like your traveling is costing you a bit more than the cost of a hotel room and a plane ticket!
      No doubt! Now imagine enjoying a nice, relaxing vacation while at the same time personally meeting ... and if necessary, personally training all of your virtual staff in one office, seeing what kind of production that they can actually handle and watching the profits continue while you enjoy some time off for work and for play ... and most of the time, you can even write your travel expenses off on your taxes that way too.
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      • Profile picture of the author jiantastic
        Originally Posted by Anomaly1974 View Post

        No doubt! Now imagine enjoying a nice, relaxing vacation while at the same time personally meeting ... and if necessary, personally training all of your virtual staff in one office, seeing what kind of production that they can actually handle and watching the profits continue while you enjoy some time off for work and for play ... and most of the time, you can even write your travel expenses off on your taxes that way too.
        You hit the nail there with a valid point. training is important on top of knowing if the staff can take on bigger tasks when sales pick up is another key point to remember.
        I'm already on the drawing board mapping out my next few months plan.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Trader
    That really sucks. Order fulfillment is one of the biggest challenges for most companies. In addition to the project manager suggestions, you might consider a project management software like Basecamp or 5pm that you & at least your project manager(s) would interact with. There are also open source (free) systems available, which have gotten a lot better in the last couple years.
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  • Profile picture of the author bmillionaire324
    Wow that sucks, but of course now that you learnt your lesson I am pretty sure that you won't make any mistakes again, the best option like previous option is to put people into it, if in long terms this people cannot be trusted, just find some family member or friend you trust and teach anything they need to know to run your business smoothly, that is the best option although is going to cost you teaching someone and efforts for long long terms it'll be the best option if nething else works
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  • Profile picture of the author misterkailo
    Maybe pay your outsource connections a bit more money and this won't happen again
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    • Profile picture of the author jiantastic
      Originally Posted by misterkailo View Post

      Maybe pay your outsource connections a bit more money and this won't happen again
      I somehow feel like it is not about the money. I believe my pay is well above industry standards for an outsourced worker. I've seen people try to get work by paying $4 per hour for good work. I pay almost twice that. the problem lies in finding the right kind of help and I have just learned that fulfilling orders is indeed a challenge. It can also be the fact that I am throwing my fist in attempt to shatter multiple walls at the same time. I should scale it down to only what my current team can do until I get a hold of a new set of contacts.
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      • Profile picture of the author bobby_shahzad
        Hey jiantastic,

        I can really feel your pain because a counter productive work force can really kill your business. There is a great debate going on about outsourcing and it really sucks for many people but works really great for others who know how to do it right.

        Some of the factors that may come into play when you have a big IM launch

        1. When you outsource, be very sure that people you are hiring have a very good sense of Ineternet Marketing business model. Many of these people may be good workers but they may never have exposure to IM company and thus they may screwup at one thing or other. To wait for them to learn as they work at your expense is not a good idea

        2. Hire people who have exposure and stamina to handle big time product launches. As you and I know this is a different ball game all together, but they may not know it. They need to be aware that orders are going to come very fast, servers are going to be over loaded, helpdesks are going to be bombarded with issues, queries, and some time refund requests. They need to be mentally and physically prepared for this. They need to understand they will have to work over time and some times be up whole night (dont mind to pay them extra for this, add bonuses and other attractions to motivate them). tell them they have to say bye to family and other things going on in their business for atleast the time till things get under control and stable

        3. Always create training videos, that is the BEST way to not only train the people you hire, BUT also if they leave you or you fire them, they can be a good resource for new comers to catch up fast. You dont have to go through same training cycle again and again with a new hire. So do spend some time making videos about each function in your company as this will save you a LOT of time in future because you do it once and it is there for ever.

        4. Use a shared collaborative tool. Frankly, Free google Docs work really well for me. I have a spreadsheet on google for every client we offer outsourcing services to and I share those docs with my team. We both can access it from any where and I can see with a birds view whats going on, where we are having performance issues and I can take quick action to resolve this quickly.

        I run an outsourcing company in Pakistan and all the above points have been essence of my 7 years of experience in managing big time IM launches. I once worked with Shawn Casey and his company on a big launch that pulled 1 million dollars in 1 week and every thing went smooth, just 3 refund requests. That is why I can understand how critically important it is to not screwup on big time launches.

        Do let me know if I or my team can be of any help to you. I do have an account at Odesk but I drive majority of my business through Elance. PM me if you would like to interview me

        Best regards,
        Bobby
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        • Profile picture of the author jiantastic
          Originally Posted by bobby_shahzad View Post

          Hey jiantastic,

          I can really feel your pain because a counter productive work force can really kill your business. There is a great debate going on about outsourcing and it really sucks for many people but works really great for others who know how to do it right.

          Some of the factors that may come into play when you have a big IM launch

          1. When you outsource, be very sure that people you are hiring have a very good sense of Ineternet Marketing business model. Many of these people may be good workers but they may never have exposure to IM company and thus they may screwup at one thing or other. To wait for them to learn as they work at your expense is not a good idea

          2. Hire people who have exposure and stamina to handle big time product launches. As you and I know this is a different ball game all together, but they may not know it. They need to be aware that orders are going to come very fast, servers are going to be over loaded, helpdesks are going to be bombarded with issues, queries, and some time refund requests. They need to be mentally and physically prepared for this. They need to understand they will have to work over time and some times be up whole night (dont mind to pay them extra for this, add bonuses and other attractions to motivate them). tell them they have to say bye to family and other things going on in their business for atleast the time till things get under control and stable

          3. Always create training videos, that is the BEST way to not only train the people you hire, BUT also if they leave you or you fire them, they can be a good resource for new comers to catch up fast. You dont have to go through same training cycle again and again with a new hire. So do spend some time making videos about each function in your company as this will save you a LOT of time in future because you do it once and it is there for ever.

          4. Use a shared collaborative tool. Frankly, Free google Docs work really well for me. I have a spreadsheet on google for every client we offer outsourcing services to and I share those docs with my team. We both can access it from any where and I can see with a birds view whats going on, where we are having performance issues and I can take quick action to resolve this quickly.

          I run an outsourcing company in Pakistan and all the above points have been essence of my 7 years of experience in managing big time IM launches. I once worked with Shawn Casey and his company on a big launch that pulled 1 million dollars in 1 week and every thing went smooth, just 3 refund requests. That is why I can understand how critically important it is to not screwup on big time launches.

          Do let me know if I or my team can be of any help to you. I do have an account at Odesk but I drive majority of my business through Elance. PM me if you would like to interview me

          Best regards,
          Bobby
          thanks for the detailed input Bobby
          pm sent
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  • Profile picture of the author kirbymurphy
    Originally Posted by jiantastic View Post

    so I generated over $83,492 in net profit from over $115,681 in sales last month.
    I had so many sales that I gave refunds and had charge backs because I couldn't fulfill them all.
    my freaking outsource connections couldn't complete the assigned tasks which costs me a lot of money!!!!!

    look at my Paypal refunds! - This does not include the big checks I had to write or the CC refunds I have to issue from Authorize.net
    Please help a newb..

    What tasks do the outsourcers do? (without giving away any secrets of course)
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  • Profile picture of the author CheapTrafficDude
    WOW!! With that kind of money you could get your own campaign in a call center!! I'm really sorry you lost that kind of coinage though.
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  • Profile picture of the author jiantastic
    iAmNameLess - Thanks!

    NickjC - I used to think just like you back in 2005. I was dead broke. I spent all my money on useless junk and got into some serious debt. It's all mental and it'll come to your naturally over time when you don't give up. I'm not one of the brightest bulb in the box compared to most marketers on this forum too. So never give up. Find what you are good at and use it to your advantage. Are you good at Bikes? sell customized bikes. Are you good at fixing computers? offer to overlook all computer problems within your local community and offer to upsell them a bit here and a bit there along the way. It's all a matter of innovative thinking that you already have but need to leverage. Money is out there, so go grab it before I sell to clients that should have been yours.

    You cannot sit behind a computer screen and effortlessly make a ton of money, despite what you are lead to believe. I seriously doubt most marketers who say they can make easy money using the internet even makes the amount of pay in 1 year compared to a 9-5 job. They might have made a four or five figures in one month, but thats only for 1-3 months perhaps until they work their asses off finding the next big thing. They don't have a long term business. They are constantly chasing the money and never really attracting it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Christian Little
    That sucks to hear, but I've really gotta know - how the heck are you pumping that much money through your Paypal account and not getting flagged for suspicious activity? I've seen accounts that have less than $40k in monthly cash flow get flagged, yet you're doing it somehow?
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    • Profile picture of the author jiantastic
      Originally Posted by Christian Little View Post

      That sucks to hear, but I've really gotta know - how the heck are you pumping that much money through your Paypal account and not getting flagged for suspicious activity? I've seen accounts that have less than $40k in monthly cash flow get flagged, yet you're doing it somehow?
      Does that person have a business account fully registered with consistent monthly cash flow? Also another BIG thing with Paypal is your relationship with the account manager. They have the power to decide the fate of your account. My account manager has been dealing with me since 2005 when I started with Paypal. In fact I have 4 Paypal accounts and they are all in healthy condition. When their automated system kicks in and holds up my funds, I simply call up the account manager and my account hold is released 5 minutes flat. no big secret, you just have to show consistency and show all the documents Paypal asks you to prove
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      • Profile picture of the author Christian Little
        Originally Posted by jiantastic View Post

        Does that person have a business account fully registered with consistent monthly cash flow? Also another BIG thing with Paypal is your relationship with the account manager. They have the power to decide the fate of your account. My account manager has been dealing with me since 2005 when I started with Paypal. In fact I have 4 Paypal accounts and they are all in healthy condition. When their automated system kicks in and holds up my funds, I simply call up the account manager and my account hold is released 5 minutes flat. no big secret, you just have to show consistency and show all the documents Paypal asks you to prove
        I'm not sure about the paperwork and such, but I've read a ton of reviews about accounts getting suspended. A really good repository of such occurances is: PayPal Alternative - Pay Pal Lawsuits, PayPal Complaints & Fraud

        How do you get an account manager? I have a Business Account but have never been informed of an account manager being assigned to us.

        Sorry if this is derailing your thread slightly, but our paypal account is generating a somewhat substantial monthly cash flow right now (at our current rate, we'll probably be seeing $25k in per month by the end of the year) and I'm always on the lookout for people who've gotten to this level and not had their account suspended lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Eric Lancheres
    Micro managing your team is tough, that really sucks that you lost so much money (on the flip side, it's nice to see that you're generating so much in the first place!)

    Regardless, refunds suck :\

    I'm curious, what do you currently use to manage your team?

    I can recommend Hyperhour beta (screenshots, time management, etc) to overview teams even when you're on vacation.
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  • Profile picture of the author dc_publius
    This might be a bit about any management versus micro-management. Looks like you let these people do their own thing for a while without any oversight.
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    • Profile picture of the author jiantastic
      Originally Posted by kaybee123 View Post

      Micro managing your team is tough, that really sucks that you lost so much money (on the flip side, it's nice to see that you're generating so much in the first place!)

      Regardless, refunds suck :

      I'm curious, what do you currently use to manage your team?

      I can recommend Hyperhour beta (screenshots, time management, etc) to overview teams even when you're on vacation.
      I use Halogen Software for employees and salesforce.com for my CRM
      They are great, the only problem is that the work was not completed as promised which is my biggest issue, but so far I've found replacements and a backup set of replacements ready and able if things flop this time. I've never lost this much money in 1 month before.

      Originally Posted by Christian Little View Post

      I'm not sure about the paperwork and such, but I've read a ton of reviews about accounts getting suspended. A really good repository of such occurances is: PayPal Alternative - Pay Pal Lawsuits, PayPal Complaints & Fraud

      How do you get an account manager? I have a Business Account but have never been informed of an account manager being assigned to us.

      Sorry if this is derailing your thread slightly, but our paypal account is generating a somewhat substantial monthly cash flow right now (at our current rate, we'll probably be seeing $25k in per month by the end of the year) and I'm always on the lookout for people who've gotten to this level and not had their account suspended lol
      that is perfectly fine, I enjoy networking and being able to provide for others. that is why I get paid so much monthly. I flow my passion into others. - An account manager is automatically assigned when you reach a certain level of payment activity. I never heard about it before until they called me and told me that they appreciate my business with Paypal and would like to assist me in getting the most out of Paypal. Lets say if you were like me whipping out $1,000 plus sales every week, you'd get one. If you only sold 1 car worth $25,000 a month then you probably won't ever get one. If i remember correctly however, the AM told me that my business has grossed over $50,000 in sales every month so he'll overlook my success. I'll ask my AM next time I'm on call with him.

      - congrats on getting up to $25k though. I'm sure you'll find a way to scale it many times over.

      Originally Posted by dc_publius View Post

      This might be a bit about any management versus micro-management. Looks like you let these people do their own thing for a while without any oversight.
      well they have been doing it for sometime so I let loose. the first 2 months I was really watching like a hawk. the moral of this story is to continue to watch like a hawk. hard lesson learned. I've lost big money playing online poker $5,000-$10,000 every other month but this is the biggest hit yet.
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      • Profile picture of the author Christian Little
        Originally Posted by jiantastic View Post

        that is perfectly fine, I enjoy networking and being able to provide for others. that is why I get paid so much monthly. I flow my passion into others. - An account manager is automatically assigned when you reach a certain level of payment activity. I never heard about it before until they called me and told me that they appreciate my business with Paypal and would like to assist me in getting the most out of Paypal. Lets say if you were like me whipping out $1,000 plus sales every week, you'd get one. If you only sold 1 car worth $20,000 a month then you probably won't ever get one. If i remember correctly however, the AM told me that my business has grossed over $50,000 in sales every month so he'll overlook my success. I'll ask my AM next time I'm on call with him.
        Ahh maybe that's why.

        My account would originally just generate a spike in cash flow, like $2000 - $10,000 over a month, then it would almost become inactive for like 5-6 months.

        But when I started my hosting company we converted the account to be exclusive for it and upgraded it to Business status. I guess we'll just wait and see if they call us sometime lol

        If you get an answer out of your account manager about how they determine if you need one, could you PM me and let me know what he/she says? Thanks
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  • Profile picture of the author Happy_Balance
    How do you get an account manager?
    I'll be asking for one before too long; Just contact their customer service and see what happens.
    Signature

    Every Day Is Fun! :)

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  • Profile picture of the author Dave90210
    Hire people locally that you can keep tabs on. Get an office pay each of them $2000 a month, get college students or HS kids to do it part time.
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    • Profile picture of the author jiantastic
      Originally Posted by Dave90210 View Post

      Hire people locally that you can keep tabs on. Get an office pay each of them $2000 a month, get college students or HS kids to do it part time.
      thanks for the input. hiring people locally seems like a great idea as well
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    • Profile picture of the author misterkailo
      Originally Posted by Dave90210 View Post

      Hire people locally that you can keep tabs on. Get an office pay each of them $2000 a month, get college students or HS kids to do it part time.
      I think this is it! You should really give this a try.
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      • Profile picture of the author Cherrelle
        Hi,

        I wondered if you could use a main manager from a company like 123employee as there staff are recruited and work within an office. They are also trained so could run with the basics and train them to do more if they dont know how to do what you require.

        I have a great employee but would would get my next employee from 123 as i was lucky to find someone who was trained but its not always the case. If you hre from odesk or the others, by definition, they are freelancers wh may have mre than one project where as 123 get good students and train them

        Cx
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      • Profile picture of the author James Sides
        It really looks like you have a great business going so I'd do everything I could to protect it.

        I don't want to sound negative because I know there are some great people overseas but for every one decent person it seems like I've found three not so great folks. (when it comes to jobs that require critical thinking)

        I think you'd be better off hiring someone locally to you and having them sign a non-compete. It might cost you a little more but I think you'd be happier with the results.

        Either way, you obviously know your stuff so don't let this one goof derail you!

        Cheers,

        James
        Signature

        "People will remain the same until the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change."

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        • Profile picture of the author jiantastic
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          If the work is not getting done - then how are they "great"? That escapes me. The costs may be low - but it's hurting your business big time.

          I don't think you have to go local - but it's convenient to have similar time zones for communication purposes. It's normal to hire cheap labor when you are getting started - but as the profit increases you need to hire better people. Your labor costs will increase - but so will your profits.

          You can't rely on a business that runs well only when one person is able to micromanage every aspect - at some point that person will run out time int he day as the business grows.

          Good managers build good teams. An outsourced worker who is paid well and has regular work wants to see your business succeed because he benefits as well.

          kay
          thats what I am working on now. I am actually applying to take my MBA part time in Management so hopefully in time it'll work out. like I mentioned above I have already found 2 sets of backups in case anything goes bad. It might cost me a little more but it's definitely worth it the speed this business going at now.

          Originally Posted by Fenderkid View Post

          It really looks like you have a great business going so I'd do everything I could to protect it.

          I don't want to sound negative because I know there are some great people overseas but for every one decent person it seems like I've found three not so great folks. (when it comes to jobs that require critical thinking)

          I think you'd be better off hiring someone locally to you and having them sign a non-compete. It might cost you a little more but I think you'd be happier with the results.

          Either way, you obviously know your stuff so don't let this one goof derail you!

          Cheers,

          James
          agreed. finding truly reliable help is rare.
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      • Profile picture of the author James Schramko
        The only person responsible for this is you.

        You cannot blame your staff and micro management is
        not the answer.

        If you want people to be untrustworthy - dont trust them.

        Increase your business skills so that you can manage
        the capacity that you are generating.

        Build your team around values, train them, support them
        give them the resources they need to complete the jobs.

        When you load them up you are placing pressure on them.
        Make sure they are equipped to handle this.

        Have a system to manage the flow. Have KPI's (key performance
        indicators) in place to know what your business is doing.

        YOu need a business dashboard to know what capacity you
        have and what you can produce.

        Get the right people in the business have them doing the right things
        right (Verne Harnish).

        Tell your people WHY they are doing things and the the RESULT
        you want. Set clear expectations and be there to lead them until
        they are confident to do the work themselves.

        It is EASY to sell stuff. Fulfillment is the catch!

        I run remote teams, we generate 7 figures PROFIT and I do not
        micro manage. It is not how you get the best from people. Do you
        like being micro managed?

        It up to YOU to do this. Nobody else. Be a leader and skill yourself.
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        • Profile picture of the author jiantastic
          Originally Posted by James Schramko View Post

          The only person responsible for this is you.

          You cannot blame your staff and micro management is
          not the answer.

          If you want people to be untrustworthy - dont trust them.

          Increase your business skills so that you can manage
          the capacity that you are generating.

          Build your team around values, train them, support them
          give them the resources they need to complete the jobs.

          When you load them up you are placing pressure on them.
          Make sure they are equipped to handle this.

          Have a system to manage the flow. Have KPI's (key performance
          indicators) in place to know what your business is doing.

          YOu need a business dashboard to know what capacity you
          have and what you can produce.

          Get the right people in the business have them doing the right things
          right (Verne Harnish).

          Tell your people WHY they are doing things and the the RESULT
          you want. Set clear expectations and be there to lead them until
          they are confident to do the work themselves.

          It is EASY to sell stuff. Fulfillment is the catch!

          I run remote teams, we generate 7 figures PROFIT and I do not
          micro manage. It is not how you get the best from people. Do you
          like being micro managed?

          It up to YOU to do this. Nobody else. Be a leader and skill yourself.
          good advice. how about we chat on skype or over the phone?
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  • Profile picture of the author Christian Little
    I agree with hiring local workers. I'm not sure what office space costs are like in New York, but in Vancouver where I am you can get office space for about $35/sq foot. For a 1000sq foot office, that's about $2900/month. Then add say 3-4 staff, plus equipment and miscellaneous costs, and you're looking at upwards of $10,000/month in operating costs, but you'll have 4 full time people that you can keep very close tabs on.

    If you know it takes 30 minutes for a staff member to process an order, then each staff member can fill about 16 orders/day. With 4 staff that's 64 orders/day, or about 1300/month overall.

    Set that as a quota. Any staff not holding up their weight gets canned and you can easily find more workers.
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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    And how do you know it was your failure to supervise that is at fault here, and it's not a case of being hit with a tidal wave of unexpected demand you simply could not meet?

    When you can answer that, then you know whether you need a project manager of not.
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  • Profile picture of the author Quatrel
    Dealing with outsourcers and staff in general is a real pain in the ass. Live your lifestyle - get some professional project managers to oversee the process and quit getting your blood pressure run up.

    workaholics4hire.com in Canada might cost you a few thousand, but then you have your life back and pros taking care of your customers.
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  • Profile picture of the author joinmyclub
    It's a big loss! you must learn from your experience and be cautious on hiring people that will work for you.
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  • Profile picture of the author donhx
    I'm surprised you're not blaming PayPal for your problems. That's what most people do!
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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Marr
    If you are dropshipping it's hard for your source to stock products that are well high in demand and most time you are not well in control of the stock. If this is what you do, you should find yourself another source or back up so at least you won't get alot of refunds in the future.
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    • Profile picture of the author jiantastic
      Originally Posted by ncmedia View Post

      Here's a story from me ^ Went through something similar not long ago, finally hired someone I know, trust, and that's the bottom line right there - without those two variables you're leaving your biz in the hands of people who simply won't EVER care as much as you do.

      (this was a message to my forum)
      ------------

      I've been through 3 support teams/attempts to date with dubturbo, all of them SUCKED F"NG ASS!

      Except for one.

      Recently I decided to get a lil' more serious about dub/cyseq and the future products I do.

      Decided to forget about odesk, guru.com, and looked right in my own backyard here and didn't look at money too much just looked at skillset and people skills most of all.

      Congratulate ** - he's been my support and retention person for the last month as a test to see if he can bring down the refund rate, retain sales with refund stoppers and other tasks, and I'm ****ING PROUD to say that he's 'paying for himself and saving me money'. My refund rate dropped a lot, and my retention rate from refund stoppers etc. has improved. Most importantly though, I have free'd up my time and now literally almost automated DUB/cyseq.


      I pay him $*,*** US/month, which sounds like a stupid amount of money right? But I'm now saving much more than that monthly as well so it's worth the ROI for me. DUB and cyseq are huge accounts and thus I pay him triple what I used to with odesk/other providers who didn't give a **** about my biz. I had *** do BCC's with me for the first week to help him prep a master canned list of responses and to get him really familiar with every step of my biz (it's complex as **** too, backend, customer management admin tools, unlock software troubleshooting/tools, install troubleshooting, membership issues, upsell issues etc. etc.) and he's doing amazing with it.

      I trust *** a lot, and it took a lot of thought to pick someone from the group both deserving and trustworthy that won't **** with me or my biz as he has the ability to with access to a lot... Much better than trusting offshore cheap labor, this is your biz after all!

      N.

      EDIT: SOrry I re-edited it a lot if it reads different now, just to illustrate important parts and hide his identity...
      ------------------------------

      This has been quite the turning point in my biz and now I couldn't imagine running it any other way.

      awesome. congratulations on finding the trust you need.
      but heed my warning, people change over time. I have 29 corporations under my name and have seen all kinds of people. I've just never outsourced to this extent before and I came up with a solution yesterday to have 2 sets of backups available if things go sour. I can see that it will be extremely effective on top of having 2 project managers. We'll see how things go from here.

      Originally Posted by donhx View Post

      I'm surprised you're not blaming PayPal for your problems. That's what most people do!
      lol. no Paypal has been good to me. I've never had a problem with them. Clients failed to have work delivered, therefore it's completely understandable for them to get refunds and chargebacks.

      Originally Posted by NickJC View Post

      I'm certainly not looking for an easy way to make a lot of money. But I am looking for a foolproof method that will give me a large amount of income and doesn't require risk or luck to do so. Let me know what you do for your million dollar year. If I could do 1/20th of it this year I'd be making more than enough money to support myself. 'Cos right now things aren't looking up for me. Thanks.
      what do you want to do? first break down why it isn't looking up?
      there is actually a ton of money out there for grabs, but as the old saying goes. you've gotten spend money to make money. pm me and we'll talk. I'm sure if I can give you a little guidance.

      Originally Posted by Rob Marr View Post

      If you are dropshipping it's hard for your source to stock products that are well high in demand and most time you are not well in control of the stock. If this is what you do, you should find yourself another source or back up so at least you won't get alot of refunds in the future.
      Dropshipping sucks and will never work well. Some have made money with it but the margins are razor thin, especially after the dropship fees (unless you do large quantities). If I were you and seeking to get into dropshipping but do not see much results after 3 months I wouldn't waste anymore time with it. Time is money and time is better spent on things with bigger ROI. just IMHO as an ex-dropshipper.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      They are great, the only problem is that the work was not completed as promised
      If the work is not getting done - then how are they "great"? That escapes me. The costs may be low - but it's hurting your business big time.

      I don't think you have to go local - but it's convenient to have similar time zones for communication purposes. It's normal to hire cheap labor when you are getting started - but as the profit increases you need to hire better people. Your labor costs will increase - but so will your profits.

      You can't rely on a business that runs well only when one person is able to micromanage every aspect - at some point that person will run out time int he day as the business grows.

      Good managers build good teams. An outsourced worker who is paid well and has regular work wants to see your business succeed because he benefits as well.

      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author clubrrr
    Dear jiantastic
    I am really sorry, this happened. Some people accused you of been greedy, and other things, but that is not it at all. People are just very intricate, and outsourcing is great but things like this will happen, but look how "right" they get most of the time. I think you are doing Fantastic! I have worked in HR for many years, have trained many processors, etc, and It is complicated!
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  • Profile picture of the author clubrrr
    Thanks for the inspiration!!!
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  • Profile picture of the author TomiPrivately
    Wow. I followed this link from your $1 e-book which I bought from DP. I am also a member in WF.

    Can I work for you? I can do article rewrite, forum posting and blog commenting.
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  • Profile picture of the author WinstonT
    Ouch, that must have hurt.

    Well, the thing right now is that a lesson is learnt. For me, I normally hire my staff locally, and that way I'll have the reins over their work

    I do sound like an evil boss...

    HR really is complicated, that's why I get a HR manager, and fire them when they don't perform.
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  • Profile picture of the author celente
    I have one horror story taht is mine, but holy heck dude. $32k... gotta say the school of hard knocks sure taught you a lesson. DANG!

    I guess you live and your learn. There will be a time to reflect, and you can make this money back quickly if you know what to do. I think people think it is easy to outsoruce, but just dont get left with your head above water. Do things within your means.

    This is one thing I have learnt to do in the last few years.
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  • Profile picture of the author bonk12
    Ouch that is brutal.

    Hire someone that you trust to overlook things how you would when you are not around. The cost of hiring someone will eliminate that risk.

    Hope that helps,

    Cheers,

    Steven Patterson
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike McAleer
    That absolutely sucks.

    I have just begun to outsource so I know how difficult it can be. You actually have to work a little. Outsourcing is not hands off.
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Micro managing is one of the BEST ways to ENSURE failure! I have seen LOTS of problems happen BECAUSE of it.

    And the ONLY way I can make sense of your original post is if:

    1. You contracted them to do work for another.
    2. You SOLD work you then contracted them to do.
    3. They manually handled fulfillment.
    4. You hired them for support or installation.

    #1 You can't really control, and they may have other commitments.
    #2 Is just dumb. I saw 3 potential businesses FAIL because people did that with ME!
    #3 You should check past history, and make sure they have a pretty automated process.
    #4 This is related to the above. It should be minimal, but you should have people INTIMATE with the product. At least with ME, a script does NOT cut it!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Seatbelt99
    WOW! That really sucks man. Congrats on getting to the level where its even possible to lose that much though.

    Good luck on getting it all figured out!
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  • Profile picture of the author Marketing Cheetah
    I will also go with Dave's suggestion. Your business is huge and you should really hire some local people instead off hiring online. You can monitor locals way easily.
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  • Profile picture of the author royljestr
    Yeah, I totally agree that your management team should be local, even if it is only 1 or 2 other people. Then you can see them, talk to them and they can manage your overseas workers. This also allows you to go on vacation an not worry about keeping up with some other countries time zone.
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